WEBVTT - Weekend Law: Trump Sues, Ticketmaster Defense & Plea Bargaining 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:14.360 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:18.319 So it is because of missus Wilson and so many 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.799 teachers like her, that I stand before you as Vice 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:28.159 President of the United States of America and that I 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.880 am running to become president of the United States of America. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.520 It all happened rather quickly. After President Joe Biden ended 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.760 his reelection bid on Sunday. Vice President Kamala Harris sealed 0:00:40.800 --> 0:00:45.560 her status as the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. By Monday night, 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.560 after getting more than enough pledged delegates to cinch the nomination. 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:54.080 The Vice president took over Biden's campaign, which was renamed 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.800 Harris for President, and his campaign war chest of about 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:02.200 ninety six million dollars. Just as quickly, Republicans started a 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.680 multi pronged effort to steymy Harris. On Tuesday, Donald Trump's 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.679 presidential campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.520 claiming that the transfer of Biden's money to Harris violates 0:01:14.560 --> 0:01:18.320 the law, and some Republicans, like House Speaker Mike Johnson, 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:23.039 began raising the specter of lawsuits challenging Harris's place on 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.080 the top of the ticket. 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.600 We have fifty different systems in each of the states 0:01:27.640 --> 0:01:30.520 when it comes to presidential elections and choosing electors and 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.399 all the rest. And in some of the states there 0:01:32.400 --> 0:01:35.560 are impediments to just switching someone out like that. Remember 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.839 that this claims to be the Party of Democracy, small 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.360 D democracy right. Fourteen million people went through the process 0:01:42.400 --> 0:01:45.720 and chose this nominee, Joe Biden. Now a handful of 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:48.120 people have gotten together and decided he's no longer suitable. 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:49.840 That's not how this system works. 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:52.600 Or is it just that Johnson doesn't understand how the 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:56.440 system works? Joining me is elections law expert Richard Brefald, 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.760 a professor at Columbia Law School. Rich start where it 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:03.840 always starts, the money. Does Harris have the right to 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:07.720 take over the money raised by Biden's reelection campaign? 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.200 So the money is sort of in three parts, And 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.000 the only real issue was the money technically that went 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.120 to the Biden Harris campaign. So the money that goes 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.480 to the Democratic Party, of course she can use. And 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.720 I think they also had a pack going, a superpack going, 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.560 and of that, of course they can use. The issue 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:27.240 was the money that went to Biden Harris specifically, and 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.200 there I think it's a smaller amount, maybe like ninety million, 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.680 but I'm not sure about that. The assumption of all 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:35.400 the campaigns finance people I've spoken to is yes, as 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:38.399 long as Harris continues to be on the ticket, it's 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:40.520 money that she can use. The issue would have been 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.800 more if the Democrats nominated someone else, then I think 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:46.920 the Biden Harris committee would have had to transfer the 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.160 money to the Democratic Party, and the Democratic Party would 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.679 have the money. But as long as she's the nominee, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.000 she is part of Biden Harris, which I think now 0:02:55.000 --> 0:02:57.760 has already been renamed Harris. So the assumption of just 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:00.839 about every campaign finance lawyer I know is that, yes, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.480 she can use it. I think the overwhelming assumption is 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.280 that the money went to her also it was going 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.720 to Biden and Harris. Harris is still running, so I 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.720 think that the vast majority of Camping c and An's 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.440 lawyers and scholars believe that it's money she can use. 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:21.960 Trump's presidential campaign filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.640 It seems like a long shot, though for a couple 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.200 of reasons. Harris has sixty days to respond, and the 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:34.920 Federal Election Commission is known for moving at a glacial pace, 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.400 so at the worst it would just be a question 0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:38.800 of paying fines later. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:41.680 Not only it takes a long to move, but you 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:44.080 would need to get four votes, and there are three 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:46.680 Democrats who sit on the Commission. There's a six member 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:51.120 commission of three Democrats and the Republicans, and on most 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.960 major things they tend to vote on party mind, So 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:55.960 it just seems right. There's both the time that would 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.600 take and likely vote, and I think given the rules 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:01.520 of the election law, I think it will be very 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.160 hard for Republicans to side step the Commission and go 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:07.880 directly to court. Now somebody might try that, but I 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.960 do think it's kind of a lost cause. Given the 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.040 court system today. You never know one hundred percent, But 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:15.240 I think, as I said, the overwhelming belief is that 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.720 the money she could use and would be very unlikely 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.279 the Federal Election Commission would certainly during the course of 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.560 the campaign, but at any time come and say it 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:24.480 wasn't improper use. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:29.000 Speaker Mike Johnson says he expects they'll be litigation, saying 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.160 there are fifty different systems and that in some states 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:36.200 there are impediments to swapping candidates. Could there be losses 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:37.480 on the basis of the switch. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.000 It seems like a totally ridiculous argument. The party doesn't 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.480 have a candidate. The party doesn't have a candidate until 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.760 they make a nomination. Biden was never nominated. If Democratic 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.800 convention has not met, even the so called virtual role 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.280 call we're talking about hasn't happened, the Democratic Party gets 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.880 to decide who the Democratic Party's nominee is, and they 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.200 haven't made a choice yet. I don't think there'd be 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.200 an issue even that's what was answered the nomination, because 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.240 they still get to write their own rules. Just to 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.800 make it clear, Biden was never the nominee. He was 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.880 the presumptive nominee. He was never the nominee, and so 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.280 there's no challenge to make. There's no substitution, No ballots 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.800 have been printed, and so it's it's totally blowing smoke. 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.239 So then what about the June twenty first memo from 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.480 the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank, where it says 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.240 it views swing states Georgia, Nevada, and Wisconsin as likely 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:36.880 arenas for pre election legal challenges because they have specific 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:40.640 procedures for withdrawal of a presidential nominee. 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:42.719 The only way there would be anything is that Biden 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.400 had actually been nominated. But Biden wasn't nominated. It doesn't 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:49.720 matter that Biden won primary there because many times a 0:05:49.800 --> 0:05:53.400 candidate who's won primary insup states who's is the nomination. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:55.960 So the fact that Harris didn't win the primary in 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.599 the NY of the states is irrelevant. Many candidate who 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.279 are an ultimate nominees lost some primaries, they still got 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.000 to be on the ballots of the states where they 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.920 lost the primary. So I think they might have some 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.839 argument that he'd actually been nominated and she was being 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.880 put in to replace him, but he was never nominated. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.120 Which do you see any other legal complications of her candidacy. 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:20.560 No, I don't. I don't. I mean, I think again, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.919 there's a potential potential challenge on the money when it 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.320 goes from Biden Harris to Harris somebody else. But I 0:06:27.360 --> 0:06:30.640 do think there it's still Harris. I think that challenge 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.680 is pretty weak. There's absolutely no challenge on her being 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.760 on the ballot because you say, one more time, Biden 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.760 was never the nominee, so there's no issue about changing nominees. 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.640 He hadn't been nominated yet and you know, it was 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.080 not likely that he would have been defeated at the convention. 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.919 But there had been contested conventions. I mean, maybe the 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:54.440 less truly congested one was in nineteen seventy six when 0:06:54.520 --> 0:06:58.560 Ronald Reagan was trying to unseat Gerald Ford. He came close, 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.560 and if he had done that, he would have been 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.080 the nominee. And the fact that forward with the incumbent 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.159 president and had one a bunch of states and primaries 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:06.320 would have been irrelevant. 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:08.760 So do you have any idea what Mike Johnson is 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:09.720 talking about? Then? 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:11.560 I have no idea what he's talking about. I mean, 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.120 I mean, some of the noise he's making is that 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.800 it's undemocratic, small d democratic. But the parties get to 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.800 write their own rules about who the nominees are. Supreme 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:22.560 Court has said that, going back to contested conventions in 0:07:22.560 --> 0:07:26.120 the nineteen seventies, This is the parties are private organizations. 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.200 They get to write their own rules and to choose 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.520 their own nominees. And it looks like they're going to 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.080 choose to nominate Harris. If they do nominate Harris, she's 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.480 the nominee. She's the one who gets on the ballot. 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.200 And if for some reason, they choose to nominate somebody 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.640 else because something else happened in the next three weeks, 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:43.240 that person would be the nominee. 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.520 And what do you think about Johnson's argument that this 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:50.280 violates democratic principles that voters chose Biden in the primaries 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:51.679 and now they're getting Harris. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.880 There's a reason it's unprecedented. You don't just, you know, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.080 steamroll the rules in the process because you decide that 0:07:58.120 --> 0:07:59.640 your candidate is no longer suitable. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.360 I mean, I think, for one thing, Biden was always 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:05.920 running with Harris as his teammate, so to some extent, 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.560 they're still getting one of their choices. But I think 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.120 in the end, remember, the winner of the primary in 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.160 any one state is not guaranteed or in many states. 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.280 I mean, going back to nineteen sixty eight, Hubert Humphrey 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.239 didn't run any primaries and he was the nominee. Eugene 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:23.920 McCarthy won more primaries than Hubert Humphrey, but Hubert Humphrey 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:24.640 was the nominee. 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.040 Everyone agrees on one thing, this is unprecedented. But is 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:33.000 there anything in presidential history that would be analogous. 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.200 It's hard to make an analogy where there was somebody 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:40.160 who was so clearly the presumptive nominee and then who 0:08:40.280 --> 0:08:42.559 pulls out at the last minute. There have been a 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:46.120 couple of elections where a candidate dies that the person's 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.760 already been nominated, and then there's a scrambled to place 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:52.079 that candidate. That has happened, But I can't recall anything 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:55.679 like this where there was somebody who had won all 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.439 the primaries, was the presumptive nominee and then decides no, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:02.760 I'm not going to run, and the party quickly rallies 0:09:02.800 --> 0:09:05.920 around another person. But again, this is the person who 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.760 was his number two. It's not a challenger who is 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:13.640 going to be chosen. So it is unprecedented, but it's utterly, 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:17.079 entirely consistent with the rules. Maybe just leave it at that. 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.120 Is that again, just to make it clear, he was 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.320 never the nominee, So they're not replacing a nominee. They're 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.680 just picking a nominee. And when people were donating money, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:30.000 they were donating money to Biden Harris. It looks like they're. 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.080 Still going to get Harris, which delegates are planning a 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.520 virtual roll call vote within the next two weeks to 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.360 confirm Harris as their nominee. For president. Just suppose that 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:41.880 doesn't happen for some reason. 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.480 The way delegates work in the Democratic Party, even if 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.199 Biden were running, the nature of the pledge is it's 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:50.640 like an honor pledge or a good faith pledge. So 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.120 even the pledge, delegates actually could have voted for someone else. 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.600 So the fact that they've kind of announced a commitment 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.280 to her, they're not legally pledged to her, so people 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.319 could change their minds. I mean, I'm not saying that's 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.760 going to happen, but I think the real issue is 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.520 I think I saw Mary and Williamson I might have declared. 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:10.680 I think under the rules of the Democratic Party, anyone 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.360 who wants to be nominated would need to support of 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.040 three hundred delegates, with no more than fifty from one state. 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.640 And at this point it doesn't seem like there'll be 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.160 any other candidate, so I think in that sense, she 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.800 has it wrapped up. None of the other prominent figures 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.720 in Democratic parties have indicated any interest in running. I 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.839 think at this point they've all endorsed her, so in 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:33.240 some sense it's technically open. But she's going to be nominated, presumably, 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:37.719 if not by acclamation then by some overwhelming quote, and. 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:40.640 I guess the only mystery left is who she'll choose 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.640 as vice president. Thanks so much, rich for clearing up 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:47.960 the confusion and ending the speculation. That's Professor Richard Rfault 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.840 of Columbia Law School coming up next on the Bloomberg 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:53.680 Law Show. You may remember in late May when the 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:58.079 Justice Department filed a major antitrust lawsuit to break up 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:02.079 Live Nation and Ticketmaster. Well, we've just seen Live Nation's 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:06.040 first response, and it's pretty underwhelming. I'm June Grosso and 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:07.280 you're listening to Bloomberg. 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:15.560 Ticketmaster can impose a seemingly endless list of fees on fans. 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:22.679 Those include ticketing fees, service fees, convenience fees, platinum fees, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:28.480 price master fees, per order fees, handling fees, and payment 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:29.600 processing fees. 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:34.520 Anyone who's bought concert tickets on Ticketmaster can probably relate 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.520 to Attorney General Merrick Garland's description of the seemingly non 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:43.360 ending fees to purchase. Ticketmaster, the country's largest ticketing company, 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:48.040 and its parent company, Live Nation, the country's largest concert promoter, 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.480 have a long history of clashes with major artists, including 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:56.040 the fiasco in twenty twenty two. When the website crashed 0:11:56.120 --> 0:12:00.400 during a pre sale for Taylor Swift Stadium tour, led 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.920 to congressional hearings. Garland said it was time for fans 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.079 and artists to stop paying the price for the monopoly, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:10.240 and so the Justice Department and more than two dozen 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.120 states filed a sweeping anti trusts lawsuit in May to 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.920 force the breakup of Live Nation and Ticketmaster. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.880 Live Nation suffocates its competition using a variety of tactics, 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:27.520 from acquisitions of smaller regional promoters and venues to threats 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:32.360 and retaliation to agreements with rivals designed to neutralize them. 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:37.839 This has included acquiring or co opting key independent promoters. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.160 Live Nation denies its a monopoly, and its CFO, Joe Burke, 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.800 told told the Senate Judiciary Committee last year that it 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.320 was not responsible for high ticket prices. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:52.120 Pricing and distribution strategies are determined by the artists and 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.680 their teams. Service fees, even if they're called ticketing fees, 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.440 are retained mainly by the venues in their portion of 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.240 the service fee. The Ticketmaster retains has been falling steadily 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:04.160 over time. 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.920 But Live Nation's first official response to the lawsuit, in 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.920 a letter to the trial judge is really underwhelming according 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:15.720 to anti trust experts, and one of those experts joins me. Now, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.400 Harry First, a professor at NYU Law School. Harry start 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.520 by telling us about the Justice Department's anti trust case. 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.120 Okay, so this is in some ways basically a suit 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.400 to correct a bad mistake the Justice Department made in 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:33.280 twenty ten. So it's taken them a while, but eventually 0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.320 anti trust enforcers are trying to get it right. So 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:40.400 what happened was in two thousand and nine, Ticketmaster and 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:45.080 Live Nation decided to merge, and the Justice Department looked 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.600 at it. Ticketmaster, of course, sells ticketing services to major 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.680 venues around the country what's now called primary ticketing services. 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.840 The secondary markets weren't so developed then reselling and Live 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.079 Nation was the biggest promoter at the time and it 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:04.640 sort of entered the ticketing market. But basically this was 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.760 what's referred to as a vertical merger, not really competitors 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.040 or not much competitors yet. But at the time the 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.520 Justice Department understood what was going on. So Live Nation, 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:22.520 which was a big promoter and booker of venues, wanted 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:28.520 to put its shows into venues that would use Ticketmaster ticketing. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.960 So the venues knew that if they wanted to get 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.240 you a really good show, the best way to do 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.640 it was to use Ticketmaster because they really needed Live 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:45.160 Nations talents. So Live Nation, as a promoter of major tours, 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:48.920 thought that this tie up would sort of help both businesses, 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.120 as did Ticketmaster. It would give Ticketmaster and edge over 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:56.440 competitors in the ticketing business, and it would increase Live 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.280 Nations revenues because now they owned a ticket in company. 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:05.520 So control the talent, control entry or choice of the venues, 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.680 and you control ticketing. So at the time, the Justice 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:13.600 Department knew this, there was testimony about this, and also 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.960 Ticketmaster had, you know, in major venues, a major share 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.320 of the market, maybe seventy or so percent, so they 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.160 had a dominant or monopoly position at the time. But 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:29.200 instead of saying you can't merge, they said, hey, go 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:32.000 ahead and merge. We've got some conditions for you. First, 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.400 help a company is trying to get into the ticketing 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.240 business get into it through some software. Okay, that was 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.360 one idea. The second thing is we'll tell Live Nations 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.080 that they can't condition their talents, you know, with venues 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.920 on using Ticketmaster. They can't make that a condition and 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:53.359 they can't retaliate against the venue if that venue subsequently 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:58.720 decides to use a ticketing company. So no conditioning, no retaliation. Fine. 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:02.080 We think this is wonderful. Parties merge the new entrant. 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.480 Turns out never does well, and almost from the beginning 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:09.080 they violate the decree, And in fact, they don't have 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.880 to actually violate it because every promoter, every venue owner 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.120 knows what the deal is. You know, give Live Nation 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.560 the ticketing revenue, more likely you're going to get the 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.240 good tours into your venue, and there's a lot of 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.840 competition for that. So this decree never worked. It didn't 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:32.240 work because the parties violated. There were later proceedings because 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.680 it looked like they were violating it, and then kame 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.400 Taylor Swift. 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.400 And then the hearings in the Senate. That was the push. 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.480 Wasn't it for the Justice Department to actually sue? 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.640 That finally pushed the Justice Department. This has been a 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.800 pretty aggressive Justice Department on any trust to say, you know, 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:54.360 just really, it's almost fifteen years. It just didn't work 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.840 and it's time to do something about it. So the 0:16:57.920 --> 0:17:02.440 lawsuit we see now is the Justice Department saying Ticketmaster 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:07.480 has a monopoly position in primary ticketing services, and it's 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:11.359 solidified by being owned by Live Nation. We've got to 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.360 stop it, declare them monopoly, and then break them up. 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.159 So they're at the motion to dismiss stage, and the 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:23.040 trial judge had asked Live Nation to identify issues it 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:27.120 might move to dismiss. Live Nation offered its first official 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.040 response to the suit in a letter to the judge, 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.879 and its response was quite narrow, really just challenging one 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.159 of the government's claims, the tying claim. What did you 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:40.879 think of Live Nation's response? 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:48.680 Not much? I mean, okay, it involves a little more 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.119 factual analysis of who's force to do was basically a 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:58.040 compelled arrangement. So there is in the Justice Department's complaint 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:02.160 not just a complaint about monopolization of the ticketing markets 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.280 and large venues. There's a complaint about a tying arrangement 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.760 that involves talent itself. So a tying arrangement is basically, 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.040 you have two products. A seller says, if you want 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:16.560 my A product, guess what you've got to take B. 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.200 So you know, if you want my car, you got 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.480 to take my tires. There's always a question of what 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.960 two products are, but that's the basic of a tying arrangement, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.000 and the Justice Department alleges that Talent knows there's this 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:34.919 talent promoting services market that Live Nation also is involved in. 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:38.080 So if you want those promotion services, you've got to 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.199 be sure to be booked into the proper venues that, 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.399 of course are using Ticketmaster. This is part of the complaint, 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:49.160 and it's a part that the defendant, Ticketmaster A Love 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.800 of Nation, says it might move to dismiss, but frankly, 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:57.160 it seems like a rather minor part of the complaint. 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.960 The big part is their monopolization claim and the big 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:05.400 relief is to break up the company. So time can 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.879 be a problem, and it's historically been a problem, but 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.359 it's not the central problem of this piece of litigation. 0:19:13.880 --> 0:19:16.159 So they haven't made their motion yet and it's a 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:19.920 little I don't know what they're doing with this particular part. 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:22.960 They are trying to move the case to a different court, 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:27.520 so maybe they don't want to reveal their entire legal 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:30.200 strategy at the moment, I really don't know, but they're 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.159 trying to change where the case is going to be 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.200 tried from New York to DC. 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.359 Yeah, and why do they want to change venues? Do 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.639 they think they'll have more luck in DC than in 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:41.120 New York? 0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:42.760 I knew you were going to ask me that. 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:44.600 I guess I'm too predictable. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.600 And I'm not really sure why they want to do that. 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.240 Flow things down. Maybe they're dissatisfied with this particular judge. 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.639 They know who they've got here. Maybe the docket is 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.720 slower in DC, They've got a lot of cases there. 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:02.600 Part of it may be related to their effort to 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:07.560 dismiss the state claims. So the states are asking for damages, 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.040 not clear which states, but under their state law. And 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.520 there's now precedent in the DC Circuit which takes a 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:19.080 somewhat dim view of these kinds of state claims in 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:22.840 any trust cases, a case that involved the Facebook litigation 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.719 in the District of Columbia. So maybe they feel they 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:30.399 have a better chance of getting those state claims dismiss there. 0:20:30.600 --> 0:20:33.439 And the state claims also come with a request for 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:38.200 a jury trial. So hard for me to know exactly strategically, 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.920 you know what all is going on, And I mean, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.240 obviously people don't ask for change of venue unless they 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:46.840 think they'll be better off someplace else. But I'm not 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:48.119 quite sure why they. 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:51.400 Think that, And so in this letter to the judge 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:55.800 they try to knock out the state claims in different ways. 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.960 Are they trying to avoid a jury trial in a 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.000 case like this where I mean, who hasn't been aggrieved 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.080 by ticket Master? 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.520 You mean you think the jury might not be too sympathetic. 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.080 That's what I'm thinking, but everyone hates. 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.320 Yeah, that's a good instinct. I think on this they 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.520 really would not want to have to present this case 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:20.040 to a jury. And the claim for damages seems it's 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.000 a little vague, which the defendant does say, and I 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.520 think correctly, you know, not that he can't be made 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.280 less vague. But if there's not a claim for damages, 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.520 then the case gets tried before a judge, and you 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.240 just hope, I guess that the judges never bought a ticket. Now, 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:39.520 if it doesn't get moved them, they're going to make 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.200 the same claims in New York. And you know they've 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.440 already cited the DC circuit case. But you know it's 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.000 stronger if it's in a circuit in which you're litigating, 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:50.840 not in a sister circuit. 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.920 As you mentioned, DOJ wants a breakup of the company, 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.840 which is a drastic remedy. But I've heard it said 0:21:56.920 --> 0:21:59.520 that if it applies anywhere, it should be here. 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.719 Yeah, I mean, in many ways this is I mean, 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:04.720 I don't know for sure because they don't know the 0:22:04.760 --> 0:22:07.879 inner workings of how integrated the firms are. But this 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:12.480 should be a case where it's relatively easy, relatively being 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.560 the keyword to break the company up because they do 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.400 operate as at least public Facing has two separate companies. 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.679 They do two separate things. They're in separate markets that 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:27.760 are linked, but they used to operate separately before and 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:32.160 presumably could operate separately again. So I think you're right. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.879 This is a case where, you know, restructuring of the 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:38.920 company sounds like it is doable. The question is whether 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.280 that's going to change Ticketmaster's monopoly position or not, And 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:45.920 that's sort of the next step. So you could break 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:48.680 them up, but you know, how much will that increase 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:50.200