1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: My Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: of our exploration of planarians, memory, learning and conditioning, and 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: of course today we're going to get to the cannibalism. 7 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: That's right. If you did not listen to part one, 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: do go back and listen to it, because we lay 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: the groundwork. We discussed these organisms, why they're interesting. We 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: discussed their regenerative powers. We talk about McConnell himself. We 11 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 1: talk about his personal and professional history as well as 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: his run in with the unit Bomber. Right. Uh, so 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: that figure, of course is James V. McConnell, the American psychologist. 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: But if you listen to the last episode, as you 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: should before this one, you already know that. So we're 16 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: picking up after McConnell's initial research demonstrating in the nineteen 17 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: fifties that despite conventional wisdom that in vertebrates could not learn, 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 1: could not be trained through classical conditioning or any other 19 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of associate of learning. Uh. McConnell and colleagues did 20 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: in fact demonstrate that that's not true, at least for planarians, 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: these flatworms that that could be trained to react to 22 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: something like a light stimulus. And we also discussed how 23 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: it's just generally known to be true today that invertebrates 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: can learn. The conventional wisdom at the time was wrong. 25 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:27,759 Speaker 1: But so to pick up with McConnell's career. After completing 26 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: his graduate degree at the University of Texas, I almost 27 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: said Jerry O'Connell, not Jerry O'Connell. James McConnell moved on 28 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: to the University of Michigan, where he continued his research 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: into flatworms. So the team that came to be known 30 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 1: as the Pollinarian Research Group or pr G. So another 31 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: piece of context for this research is a sort of 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: quest for the holy Grail within twentieth century psychology and neuroscience, 33 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: and this was the hunt for the elusive Ingram. It 34 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: was believed by men in the mid century that a researcher, 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: that the first researcher to actually pinpoint something known as 36 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: the ingram, would receive the Nobel Prize for their work. 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: But what was the ingram? The short version is that 38 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: the ingram was believed to be the fundamental physical unit 39 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: of memory represented in the body. In order for an 40 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: animal to learn an association between two things, that memory 41 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: has to be accompanied by some kind of physical change 42 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: inside the body. But what is the fundamental unit of 43 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: that change? Is it a structural change in the brain 44 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: that can be located, or is it something else. So 45 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: the idea is that you would see the physical evidence 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: of learning and then potentially like that is physical evidence 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: that could be then manipulated. Of course, yeah, it's sort 48 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: of like searching for the atom. What the atom is 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: to matter? The ingram would be to memory, what is 50 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: the fundamental unit that that physically indicates in the body 51 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: a memory has been formed. And of course motivation for 52 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: studying whether simpler organisms like worms and other invertebrates could 53 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: in fact learn associations through classical conditioning was that this 54 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: might help move along the search for the ingram. If 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: a biological phenomenon seems too complex to understand in one organism, 56 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: you know, if you can't find it in a rabbit, 57 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: everything is just too complicated. Maybe you can get a 58 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: foothold to understanding by looking for analogous phenomena in simpler 59 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,799 Speaker 1: organisms and then build your way back up, and this 60 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: is a sensible way to go about it, of course. 61 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: Uh So, research in the middle of the twentieth century 62 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: tried to locate the ingram two changes in a specific 63 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: part of the brain and a rat, but these efforts failed. 64 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: In fact, rat brain memory research he demonstrated that there 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: was no one location or structure in which the fundamental 66 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: unit of memory association was to be found. Instead, learning 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: seemed to involve wide swaths of the rat cortex, and 68 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: today we know that certain regions of the brain are 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: especially important for memory. Is, for example, fear based conditioning, 70 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: like if you condition somebody to respond to a stimulus 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: through conditioning due to an electric shock. This seems to 72 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: strongly implicate the amygdala, not just fear actually, but other 73 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 1: types of emotional memory as well. I think, while memory 74 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: of spatial locations and physical maps seems especially to implicate 75 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: the hippocampus, but memories for complex actions maybe finding your 76 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: way around a maze, as was often tried with rats, 77 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: will involve lots of different parts of the brain at once, 78 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: so you can't point to the memory in one specific 79 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 1: part of the brain. It's using the whole brain. Basically, 80 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. This wasn't yet clear it was. 81 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: It was just clear that memory, contrary to the expectations 82 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 1: of many psychologists, couldn't be located in one particular structure 83 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: or single point physical change in the brain. And because 84 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: of the failure of researchers to locate a structural ingram 85 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: at a single point in the brain, some researchers began 86 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: to turned to other explanations, and McConnell was one of them. 87 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: McConnell wondered, what if memories were not stored exclusively in 88 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,920 Speaker 1: structures in the brain. Could you have memories in your hands, 89 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: in your blood, in your guts. Was there a deeper 90 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: chemical rather than structural basis for our memories? And here's 91 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 1: where the Planarians again become an invaluable research tool in 92 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 1: looking into could you have memories outside the brain? Could 93 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: there be such a thing as a memory chemical or 94 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: a memory molecule found throughout the body? And yeah, this 95 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: we come back to the regenerative powers of the Planarian. 96 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: We described this in the first episode as being something 97 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: like The Sorcerer's Apprentice, the old Disney animation from Fantasia 98 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: in which the uh what what is it? It's a 99 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: broom that is brought to life to do a particular task, 100 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: to carry water from a well. I think, and yeah, 101 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: it was, it's a well. And then and then Nikki, 102 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 1: the sorcerer's apprentice in this case uh In is up 103 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: having to to destroy it, so he chops it into 104 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: a million pieces with his axe, and then all those 105 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: millions of pieces, each little sliver of the broom comes 106 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: back to life and grows into a whole new fresh 107 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: of broom with that walks around on two legs and 108 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: carries buckets of water. Right, And this connects to the 109 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: regenerative powers of planaria, because if you cut a planarian 110 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: in half one of these flatworms, just chop it in 111 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: half crosswise, separating the head from the tail. Each half 112 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: of the worm would grow back the part it lost, 113 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: So the decapitated head could regrow a tail, and the 114 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: decapitated tail could regrow ahead, which means regrowing a brain. 115 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: So McConnell's question was, if I condition a flat worm 116 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: to learn something, maybe have a response to a stimulus 117 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: like a flashing light, and then I cut it in half, 118 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: which half of the worm will retain the response. If either, 119 00:06:57,200 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: Now you might think the answer is obvious, right, Well, 120 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: obviously the head half is where the brain is, so 121 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: the head half will retain the conditioning if either side 122 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: does and the tail half won't, Right that that seems 123 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: like the obvious conclusion, Right, Yeah, that's what you would assume. 124 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: That's what like a basic understanding of monster movies would 125 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: have you assumed. Yes, McConnell found this was not exactly 126 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: true in his experiments on freshwater flat worms called dogs 127 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: a Dorado cephala. If you classically condition the worm to 128 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: respond to a light and then you cut the flat 129 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: worm into two halves, both halves retained the conditioning, and 130 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: in a few cases the tail retained the conditioning more 131 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: strongly than the head. So you could cut the head off, 132 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: the tail would regrow ahead and it would still respond 133 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: like the way it had learned to respond when it 134 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: had its original head. So if all the learning was 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: in the brain, how could that be possible? Right? This 136 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: would seem to indicate that there's some sort of memory 137 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: retention or memory storage going on within the body itself, right, 138 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: And these was else were eventually published in the Journal 139 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: of Comparative and Physiological Psychology. But then it gets even 140 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: weirder because we're going to start playing flatworms Ship of Theseus? 141 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: Uh so refresher on the Ship of Theseus? Thought experiment, Robert, 142 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: do you want to do the honors here? Oh? Sure? 143 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: This is the basic idea. If you you have this ship, 144 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: for this legendary Ship of Theseus, you're celebrating it across 145 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: the decades. Think about it. Is a ship that is 146 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: docked for decades tends to fall apart piece by piece, 147 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: so you replace it piece by piece. Eventually you reach 148 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: the point where you have replaced every single piece of 149 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: this vessel. The question is, is the Ship of Theseus 150 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: any longer? The Ship of Theseus? Is it? It's it's 151 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: not physically the same ship it was before, but it 152 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: is the same shape. It's just all the pieces have 153 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 1: been at this point replaced. Now, what if you in 154 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: fact do this with flatworms since they can regenerate, And 155 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: this is exactly what they tried. In a series of experiments, 156 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: McConnell and the Planarian Research Group showed that if you 157 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: cut a worm, like, for example, you cut a flat 158 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: worm's head off after it's been conditioned and trained, so 159 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: it has this memory response and then that tail regrows ahead, 160 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: and then you cut the original tail off, so the 161 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: regenerated head regrows a tail. Now you've got no original 162 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: part of the worm left. So you've been through these 163 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: multiple generations of cutting a worm apart and letting it regenerate. 164 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: And yet their experiments found that some learning training memory 165 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,079 Speaker 1: was retained across the multiple generations where there was no 166 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: original part of the worm left. Again, how would this 167 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: be possible, Like, if memories are stored exclusively in the brain, 168 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: how could a memory necessary to establish a conditioned response 169 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: still operate within a tail that had its head cut off, 170 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,079 Speaker 1: or a segment of a worm grown from a segment 171 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: of a worm grown from a segment of a worm 172 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: that had been through the conditioning. And this led McConnell 173 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: to suppose that he had evidence that memory may have 174 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: strong chemical whole components. They're not limited to activity within 175 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: the brain. There could be actual molecules of chemical memory 176 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: coursing through the worm's body. Now, if this were true, 177 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: this would of course be a revolutionary discovery right right right, 178 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: because of course, and it would conceivably apply to other organisms. 179 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's the thing. It might force us 180 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: to completely rethink what we thought we knew about memory, right, 181 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: and of course if it were true of flatworms, as possible, 182 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: it would only be true of flatworms. But yeah, you 183 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: don't know where else this would lead. Could it even 184 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: be true of more complex animals. So it was this 185 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 1: line of research about cut up flatworms retaining memories that 186 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 1: led actually to the founding of the magazine we talked 187 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: about in the last episode, The Worm Runners Digest. This 188 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 1: was McConnell's magazine that quite strangely combined both real research 189 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: on on planarians. It was like real flatworm research published 190 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: alongside weird poems and and joke articles and satirical articles 191 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: and stuff. It's such a weird title. The worm part 192 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: clearly relates to the worm experiments, but it also brings 193 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: to mind like blade Runner, except it's worm Runner. And 194 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: it also makes me think of various Gary Larson far 195 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: Side cartoons which a worm is perhaps, you know, wearing 196 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: sweatpants and linn running. That's good, But the joke and 197 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: title in the title is actually a reference to like 198 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: common terms used by psychologists of this period, lots of 199 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: research about learning and memory involves rats and mazes, and 200 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: so researchers who did this kind of work referred to 201 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: themselves jokingly in the nineteen fifties as rat runners. McConnell's 202 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: variation is self explanatory. Jerry the worm runner. Okay, not Jerry, Jarry, 203 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: Jerry O'Connell, James Ry myself there, James the worm runner then, 204 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: but yeah, actually so coming back. So this led to 205 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: the founding of this strange magazine that he became very 206 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: well known for. The story has summarized by Larry Stern, 207 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: and I mentioned and several sources at the beginning of 208 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: the last episode. We're still referring to those sources in 209 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: this episode. One was an article by Larry Stern that 210 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,599 Speaker 1: that talked about the founding of this magazine. So in 211 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: nineteen nine, McConnell presented some of this work, uh, this 212 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: work about chopping up flatworms and then supposedly retaining memories 213 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: to an annual convention of the American Psychological Association the 214 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: a p A. And this included results collected by a 215 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: member of the Planarian Research Group named Riva Jacobson. And 216 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: again this research showed that not only could a decapitated 217 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: flatworm retain associate of learning, but essentially the ship of 218 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: theseus flatworm containing no tissue of the original worm could 219 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: also retain learning, and after the presentation, Newsweek published an 220 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: article summarizing the research. This led to a huge surge 221 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: of popular interest in McConnell's work, and so Larry Stern 222 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: writes quote. Shortly after the Newsweek coverage, McConnell was inundated 223 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: with letters from high school students from around the country 224 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: asking where they could obtain worms for their projects and 225 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: how they should go about caring for and training them. 226 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: Some students, according to McConnell, demanded that he sent them 227 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: a few hundred trained worms at once, as their projects 228 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: were due within days. It sounds a little familiar, right, 229 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: Students don't do things like this, but McConnell did want 230 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: to help students conduct their own flatworm research. I get 231 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: the feeling he was into this idea, but he realized 232 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: very quickly that it didn't make sense to try to 233 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: respond to each letter individually, so instead he decided to 234 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: publish a manual on how to replicate the experiments performed 235 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: by the PRG, and he titled this document The Worm 236 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: Runners Digest. However, after publishing this manual under that title, 237 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: McConnell started getting submissions to appear in future issues. So 238 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: he began publishing this so called journal on a regular basis, again, 239 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: including both real research and psychological in jokes, cartoons, poems, 240 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff interwriting. So it's kind 241 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: of accidentally became a continuing publication. Yeah. Now, as you 242 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: can magine, some people didn't take kindly to this mix 243 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: of subject matter. In nineteen sixty four, after some readers 244 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 1: complained that they couldn't tell the real research from the 245 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: jokes and the satire, they started publishing the satirical elements 246 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: upside down in the back half of the journal. So 247 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: there was some attempt there to clear up the confusion. 248 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 1: But I think for a lot of scientists the pure 249 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: proximity of the different material was was a problem no 250 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: matter how clear the division. Well, I think that's understandable. 251 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: We talked before about the Ignoble Prizes, for instance, about 252 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: most of the individuals involved and honored by these prizes 253 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: that celebrate, you know, scientific studies that are legitimate scientific studies, 254 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: but that are on some level humorous or amusing. But 255 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: you still have some individuals in the scientific world who 256 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: do not see the value of that. So if they're 257 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: so if feathers are ever ruffled by the ignoble prizes, 258 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: obviously something like this would ruffle feathers as well. Yes, 259 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: uh so, Then in nineteen sixty seven there came another 260 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: split where the serious half of the journal was just 261 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: formally cleaved and renamed, in fact cloven in half like 262 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: a flatworm, uh, chopped right off, decapitated. The serious half 263 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: was renamed the Journal of Biological Psychology, and the worm 264 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: runners Digest became the soul Haven of Humor, and it 265 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: continued publishing that way until all Right, on that note, 266 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break, but we will 267 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: be right back. Than alright, we're back, alright, So to 268 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: jump back into the progression of James McConnell's research, we're 269 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: we're brought back to this question of a non brain 270 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: chemical basis for memory. Couldn't memory, or at least some memory, 271 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: some types of memories be stored chemically rather than structurally 272 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: dispersed in the body in molecules, And here's where we 273 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: get to the cannibalism. So, if there were in fact 274 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: molecules within an animal representing some kind of chemical memory, 275 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: such as memory of how to navigate a maze, could 276 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: this be demonstrated? Could those molecules be shared from one 277 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: animal to another? And this makes sense. That's what creatures do. 278 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: They take molecules from each other, from other organisms and 279 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: put them into themselves. Sure, we absorbed the molecules existing 280 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: in other organisms for nutrition. Uh, so maybe you could 281 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: molecules be absorbed from one organism to another four memory transfer. 282 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: So the first method they tried, uh and this is 283 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: based on the reporting of one of those Larry Stern articles. 284 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: The first method they tried was to splice the head 285 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: of a conditioned worm onto the tail of an unconditioned 286 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: worm to see if it would share molecules right, to 287 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: force them to exchange the alleged memory molecules. But the 288 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: transplant did not work. The head would not stay attached. 289 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: Then they tried to liquefy fully conditioned flat worms and 290 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: inject their juice into untrained worms, but this was also difficult. 291 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: The planarians were too small to be injected basically, and 292 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: sometimes they exploded when injected. In Larry Stern's words quote 293 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: it was like trying to impay all a prune with 294 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: a javelin a lot of horrific things done to to 295 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: planarians in these experiments. I guess they are a simple 296 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: enough organisms that we have to be so upset about them, 297 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: I guess, But it's still one can't help it. Pause 298 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: a little on some of these, right, some of the grinding, Yeah, 299 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: the sauce, the gravy, the flatworm sauce. So how do 300 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 1: you get those hypothetical memory molecules in there? If you 301 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: can't inject them, you can't transplant ahead on. So the 302 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: next route they tried, and this was in the year 303 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, was experimental planarian cannibalism. This would be the 304 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: old fashioned way of getting molecules from one organism into 305 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: the other. Sure, so apparently the idea came from a 306 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: flatworm researcher named Jay Boyd Best who communicated to McConnell 307 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,440 Speaker 1: about the fact that one particular species of planarian was 308 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: known for cannibalistic behavior. So here's the answer. You train 309 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: the worms to respond to to a maze or to 310 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: the light, whatever the conditioning stimulus is, and then they 311 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: learn the conditioning and then you grind them up into 312 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: worm gravy, and then you feed the worm gravy to 313 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: the untrained naive worms, and you see what happens, and astonishingly, 314 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: their early experiments with this method looked very promising, including 315 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: a number of early replication attempts with blinding procedures to 316 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: remove the possibility of experiment or bias, supposedly confirming their 317 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: early results. So, if it were true that memory molecules 318 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: are being exchanged through this strange cannibalistic ritual, could I, 319 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 1: you know, with this extend to humans? Could could I 320 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: drink your flesh and gain your memories? And how was 321 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 1: it happening? What was the chemical basis here? So one 322 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: interesting line of reasoning here followed from the still somewhat 323 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 1: recent discoveries about genetic information being stored in and mediated 324 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: by nucleic acids DNA and RNA. Remember, you know, we're 325 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: not too far from from the discovery of the double 326 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: helix here. So if DNA and RNA could be involved 327 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: in an information management process passing genetic information across generations 328 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: from parents to offspring, could the same molecules also in 329 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: code and mediate other types of information? I mean information 330 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: is in the DNA. So specifically, could the information content 331 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: of memories somehow be coded into DNA or RNA and 332 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: then dispersed through the body, but also transferred from one 333 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: body to another. And so this is the line they took. 334 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: McConnell and his team conducted experiments and published results that 335 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,119 Speaker 1: seemed to back up the idea, at least for a while, 336 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: that RNA played some important role in facilitating memory, and 337 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: that RNA could be used to chemically inoculate naive worms 338 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: with the memory associations of their more worldly predecessors. And again, 339 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: just consider how revolutionary this would be if it turned 340 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: out to be true. You'd be forced to wonder how 341 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: far the principle could be taken. Did this only apply 342 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: to planarians or did it extend to other more complex animals. 343 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: Would there be ways in which humans could undergo chemical learning? 344 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: Could you train the mind in some way with an 345 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: injection alone, or even a pill? Even if it only 346 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: worked for like broad associative learning such as you know, 347 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: the kind of things you get through classical conditioning with 348 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: an electric shock and a single stimulus, you could still 349 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: possibly imagine profound benefits. Just one idea comes to mind, like, 350 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: say you're struggling with a drug addiction. Could you seek 351 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: out an injection of of memory molecules to establish a 352 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: strong averse reaction to your drug of choice such that 353 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to take it anymore. Yeah, Or to 354 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: get into some of the behavioral his ideas that we 355 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: discussed in the first episode, some of those ideas that 356 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: that that McConnell's very outspoken about it, even later in life. 357 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 1: You could have some sort of a cocktail that could 358 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: be injected into an individual that had a history of 359 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 1: violence and history of of you know, breaking the law 360 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: and rebelling against authority figures, and you could can potentially 361 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: fix them with this injection. Yeah. And of course there 362 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: you get into the more nefarious possible thing, Like you 363 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: can probably instantaneously imagine so many horrible, insidious uses for 364 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: injectable conditioning if such a thing were possible. Oh yes, 365 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: I mean, as with any science, many many fabulous uses 366 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: come to mind, but so many nightmares as well. But 367 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: we should stop and be real for a second here, 368 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: that even if these findings had turned out to be 369 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: totally solid for planaria and more on, that in a moment, 370 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: we should know better than to freely extrapolate from worms 371 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: to humans. I think this is one of the most 372 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: classic traps that people fall into and interpreting biological research. 373 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: I'd say more often as people extrapolating from like rats 374 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: to humans. But this isn't a much larger jump. This 375 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: isn't even a vertebrate animal. Yeah, I mean, you can't help. 376 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: I often find that I can't help, but but at 377 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: least think about that on some when I read a 378 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: science headline, I can't help it. Put myself into into 379 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 1: it somehow and imagine myself as the creature, right, And 380 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,679 Speaker 1: it's often, I mean, it's just done right there in 381 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: the press. Again, it's fine to wonder about what possibilities 382 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: could be implied by studies in rats for humans, but 383 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,479 Speaker 1: you can't just, you know, conclude from one to another. 384 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: We can't help but anthropomorphize virtually any creature, and if 385 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: that creatures in a study, we're also going to end 386 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: up anthropomorphizing that as well. But James McConnell, true to form, 387 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: as we know from the last episode, was not one 388 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: to be shy or cautious about interpreting his findings. He 389 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: loudly proclaimed them to the public, advertising his results on 390 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: TV programs. He apparently embraced the nickname mccannibal uh, and 391 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: he predicted an era of memory pills like we just discussed, 392 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: So you might be thinking, like, wait a minute, he 393 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: should know better than to extrapolate from planarian even if 394 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: you assume the planarian research to be solid and will 395 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: introduce some caveats to that. But even if you did 396 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: assume that, how could you jump from that to human 397 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: memory pills? That seems like a you know, a leap 398 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: of miles of assumptions. Yeah, very much though, And it 399 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: does seem from from what I was reading, especially in 400 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: Rilling's paper about McConnell, that it seemed like to him 401 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 1: he sort of had a sense of humor about talking 402 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: about memory pills, like as if he were sort of 403 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: joking when he talked about memory pills. But that was 404 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: not clear to the popular audience that was listening on 405 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: the TV. You know, they weren't psychologists. They didn't understand 406 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,360 Speaker 1: that he was kind of kidding when he said. That 407 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: makes sense, oh, certainly. And then also, they're going to 408 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: be like a few different levels, so I could like, 409 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: he may joke about it here in this paper, or 410 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: joke about it to this individual, but then you're gonna 411 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: have different levels of coverage, and it's going to get 412 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: out of out of control pretty quickly. Yes, So Rilling 413 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: writes that quote McConnell's work on retention following regeneration and 414 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: planaria provides a case study in sensational journalism and illustrates 415 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: how his media work escaped the normal mechanisms of peer review. 416 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: So the idea is that McConnell and colleagues would do 417 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: an experiment, they would obtain a very strange and interesting 418 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: result that looked solid enough to get published in an 419 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: academic journal, and then McConnell would immediately want to engage 420 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: in quote, wild sounding conjectures interpreting the meaning of his 421 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: results and how they would be applied in the future, 422 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: and scientific journals generally like one example was the editor 423 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: Harry harlow Uh generally refused to publish these wild interpretive 424 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: or speculative addendums to the research. They just say, well, 425 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: we'll publish your study, you gotta cut out this section 426 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: about memory pills that doesn't belong in here. But of 427 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: course there's no peer review in the popular media, so 428 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: he could go on TV and say memory pills as 429 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: much as he wanted, And it turned out that that 430 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 1: kind of thing on TV gets you booked on TV 431 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: again because it's exciting right. I mean, that's like something 432 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: that people in picture, it's not hard to understand, and 433 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: it's it's very like what revolutionary. That's what you want 434 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: in a science segment on your your news programs. You 435 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: want something relatable, and here's this guy that is making 436 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: it relatable and exciting with promises that are not at 437 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: all implied by the research being discussed. Even if the 438 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: research itself is a solid and and retrospectively that may 439 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: be in doubt. So just one example, in nineteen fifty nine, 440 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: an article in Newsweek covering McConnell and the PRG research 441 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: claimed it may be that in schools of the future, 442 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: students will facilitate the ability to retain information with chemical injections. Apparently, 443 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: there was also a lot of misunderstanding in the media, 444 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:46,400 Speaker 1: misunderstanding the fact that multiple generations of regenerated Planaria could 445 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 1: retain training, and they misunderstood this is the fact that 446 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,200 Speaker 1: memories can be inherited in apparent to child sense, which 447 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: led to all kinds of Lamarckian interpretation. So I think 448 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: there there's all. There was also just confusion stemming from 449 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: the use of the word inherited and generations he was 450 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: talking about like generations being chopped up and regenerating, which 451 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: is quite different than what we understand, right, And again 452 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: he's coming down. He's talking about memories here. There are 453 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: other things that you know, there's certainly things that affect 454 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: that have generational effects in biology and in human biology. 455 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: I think we've talked about studies before and about body 456 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: size following periods of starvation, that sort of thing. But 457 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: but again we're talking about memories here. He is explicitly 458 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: talking about memory. Yes, And another one that that was 459 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: quoted in Rilling was regarding cannibalistic memory transfer, the one 460 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: where you eat the worm gravy and you gain that 461 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,639 Speaker 1: worm's memories. Supposedly, there was a nineteen sixty four article 462 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 1: in the Saturday Evening Post that claimed we quote might 463 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: someday enable us or it might someday enable us to 464 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: learn the piano by taking a pill, or to take 465 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,959 Speaker 1: calculus by injection, which at that point is is very crude, 466 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: gross kind of like over interpretation of what the memories 467 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 1: here all are. And the you know, the leap from 468 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: one organism to another, you just like do a line 469 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: of ground up Beethoven, And yeah, I mean this is 470 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: this is so outrageous that like I, I feel like 471 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: I would I would feel like I was over stretching 472 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: to use this as an outrageous example of a possibility, 473 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: you know, like earlier I I did the the far 474 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: future example of of criminals being treated like this seems 475 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: even this is even seems crazier, but on the same hand, 476 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 1: also attractive the idea of being able to uh, say, 477 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: master calculus by simply injecting something into your body. Yeah, 478 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: though I hope Also our questions about potential applications if 479 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: this were true were heavily caveat. So in the mid 480 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties there were even studies following up on this 481 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: cannibalism research claiming to bear out chemical memory transferring other species, 482 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: such as in rats. Again, that's kind of hard to believe, 483 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: and so like. For a few years there in the sixties, 484 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: things looked incredibly promising with this research. But fortunately or unfortunately, 485 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: depending on how you look at it, it was not 486 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: too lad. There was a problem with the p RGS 487 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: cannibalistic memory transfer research, and it was just that it 488 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: didn't hold up to sustained scrutiny over time. Over time, 489 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: properly blinded and controlled efforts to replicate McConnell's results. A 490 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: few of them came in saying yeah, we replicated, but 491 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: a lot did not produce the same effects for cannibalism 492 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: or other chemical methods of memory transfer. According to Rilling 493 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one, I guess this would be as 494 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: a result of some of these failures, the Plenaryan research 495 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: group lost its grant support, and this led McConnell to 496 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: change focus. And after this in the seventies he went 497 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 1: on to write a very influential and from what I 498 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: can tell, mostly well regarded textbook for introductory psychology. Apparently, 499 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: one thing that set it apart in the field was 500 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: that it used a lot of fiction. It introduced students 501 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 1: to psychological research methods with the use of stories and 502 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: like fictional framing narratives to explain the principles that were 503 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: discussed in each chapter. UH, even including one chapter about memory. 504 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: It seems to begin with a fictionalized version of the 505 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: story of his research with Thompson in nineteen fifty four 506 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: or so, UH, though incorporating lessons about control groups that 507 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: he had not learned very well back then, and as 508 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: we discussed more in the previous episode. Later in his career, 509 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: I think he was known more maybe for being a 510 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: fierce public advocate of the powers of behavior modification through conditioning. Again, 511 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: this was an era in which behaviorist psychology was seen 512 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: by many as a potentially revolutionary scientific tool for minute 513 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: control of human minds and lives. This is the birth 514 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: of the modern concept of brainwashing. Right and McConnell wrote 515 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: and appeared on TV arguing that behavioral conditioning would fundamentally 516 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: alter the nature of criminal justice in democratic society itself. 517 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: I think there was one article he wrote that was 518 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: titled something like we must brainwash criminals. Now, well, that's 519 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: a great headline though, no doubt about it. Yeah, certainly 520 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: if you want to get the clicks. Uh, yeah he 521 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: was maybe he maybe he was clickbait before the Internet. 522 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: He does, he does seem very CLICKBAITYU. And this is 523 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: something some of his colleagues said about them. Is quoted 524 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: in the Rilling paper that he wanted to shock people. 525 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: He wanted to say things that would make people say, 526 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: what what's this guy talking about? That can't be true? 527 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, the idea was you you 528 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: bring people in by shocking them, and then you educate 529 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: them with the science. And you know, I guess that 530 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:28,719 Speaker 1: can be an okay method if what you if what 531 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: you say in order to shock people isn't fundamentally dishonest 532 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: in some way, right, Yeah, I mean it's it's kind 533 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: of it kind of gets into a similar of like 534 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: leading with an example, you know, and sometimes it's an 535 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: outrageous example. Sometimes, like on this show, we we bring 536 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: up a monster, something fantastic, and we use that to 537 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 1: talk about something that is that is real and talk 538 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: about actual scientific studies or actual biology that somehow matches 539 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: up to that. But well, I hope we never do. 540 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: I hope if we start with god Zilla, we don't 541 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: leave you with the impression at the end of the 542 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: episode that god zills real and true. But it is 543 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: interesting how it seems like some of the things that 544 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: did make him such a great communicator and ultimately like 545 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: a great author of an introductory psychology book. Uh, those 546 00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: are also some of the things that got him in trouble. Yeah, 547 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: that totally seems to be true based on everything I've read. 548 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: But but coming back to the the memory transfer issue, 549 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: I just want to say that I think the conclusion, 550 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: unfortunately at the end is that the cannibalistic memory transfer 551 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: saga is widely regarded now as a dead end. Despite 552 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: a few reports of moderate replication successes, McConnell's results ultimately 553 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: did not hold up to widespread scrutiny and the rigorous 554 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: application of controls by others. And it looks like his 555 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: supposed discoveries about memory transfer through injection or cannibalism were 556 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 1: probably wrong, but not all of his conclusions were necessarily wrong. 557 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean again, One of the points of Rilling's article 558 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: seems to be that despite the ultimate failure of the 559 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: memory transfer through cannibalism theory, McConnell did make truly important 560 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: contributions to research on invertebrate learning in the nineteen fifties. 561 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: And while the memory transfer the memory molecule transfer through 562 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: cannibalism is almost definitely a dead end, more recent studies 563 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: have sort of raised the question of whether his like 564 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: decapitation and transplantation research might have been on the right track. 565 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna take one more break. When we 566 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,959 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to discuss some of these modern 567 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:35,320 Speaker 1: follow ups regarding polanaryan decapitation and brain transplant Thank alright, 568 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: we're back so we discussed through through the end of 569 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: the career of of James V. McConnell, who studied planarians 570 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: memory memory transfer our memories outside of the brain, and 571 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: we we brought up the idea that this subject has 572 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: been revisited by researchers just in the past few years 573 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: who think that while McConnell was probably wrong about like say, 574 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: eating flat worms and gay in their memories, there may 575 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: be some truth to the idea of memories somehow being 576 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: stored outside the brain or transferred without a full brain. Yeah. So, 577 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: for instance, it has been demonstrated that if you transplant 578 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: the planarians brain into another worm's body, uh, it will 579 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: result in at least partial recovery of function, even if 580 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: the brain is put in backwards or transplanted across species. Uh. 581 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: The author Pagan, who we brought up earlier, who wrote 582 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: the first brain UH, he points this out, and he 583 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: points out that basically the cross species transplants held, meaning 584 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: there was no rejection and forty eight hours later the 585 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: worm retained mostly normal behavior. I mean, that's pretty weird, 586 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: but again it's worms. Like Yeah. One of the big 587 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: take comes from all of this is that planarian brains 588 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 1: and plinarian in general are strange, right, So a lot 589 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: of what we determine what a lot of what we 590 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: learned from this research you could interpret as some fascinating 591 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: deeper inside about biology g as a whole, or you 592 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: could interpret it as fascinating specific facts about these flatworms. Absolutely. 593 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: Uh so in particular, though a gun and there's are 594 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: referring to a study by Davies at all, and they 595 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: were working with a species of planarium that actually can't 596 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: regenerate brain tissue, but a transplanted brain will take root 597 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: and quote nerves exiting the brain tended to join with 598 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: the peripheral nerves closest to them, which I think is 599 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: a wonderful image of the brain being implanted in this creature. 600 00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: And then like the like the like roots forming, like 601 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 1: the vein, he connects itself. It hooks itself up like 602 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: a car battery that has been placed in the inside 603 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: another via a new vehicle, and all the things just 604 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: kind of hook up automatically, plug and play. Yeah. Well, 605 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: or like like mistletoe or some other kind of parasite 606 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: that like sticks it's little it's how stori um or whatever, 607 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: the little spikes down into the host. Yeah, it's it's 608 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,279 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's definitely not the human experience. I mean 609 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 1: not to not to discuss, you know, the whole body 610 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: transplant or human brain and head transplant much in this episode, 611 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: but basically it's very complicated, if not impossible in humans. Yeah. Well, 612 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 1: and again to look at memory more broadly, neuroscientists today 613 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: mostly broadly understand memories to be neural networks, right, networks 614 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: within the brains, sort of strings of reinforced connections between 615 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: neurons and brain regions that specify memories by their cross 616 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: linked structure. A memory is in some way a series 617 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 1: of connections between neurons and the brain. Uh. Though that 618 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: does seem to be the case. Beyond that broad picture, 619 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: there's still a lot we don't know about the physical 620 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: basis of memory, and so even in especially in organisms 621 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: like flatworms, there are ways in which memory could be 622 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: operating and that are still mysterious to us right now. 623 00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,000 Speaker 1: Of course, the quest to solve these mysteries continues. Uh. 624 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: Great deal of pollinarian research is still going on, and 625 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 1: you see quite a bit of it come out of 626 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: Tufts University, and you'll see um, a researcher by the 627 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 1: name of Michael Levin often is a is a head 628 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: author or co author or contributing author on these papers. Yeah, 629 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 1: and there was one big study that got some press 630 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: being connected back to McConnell's research that Levin was at 631 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: least one of the authors on UM and and basically 632 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: it had to do with replicating a version of the 633 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 1: decapitation experiment showing that somehow it appeared memory if the 634 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: study was designed properly and there wasn't some kind of 635 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: flaw that people didn't notice in there, that memories maybe 636 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: were somehow being transferred through the decapitation process. Right. This 637 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: is a two thousand thirteen Tough University study that found 638 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,720 Speaker 1: that a decapitated flat worm that grows a new head 639 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: keeps its old memories. Uh. For instance, the Sarahsing article 640 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: about this it appeared in Nautilus, carried the title decapitation 641 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: but not cannon is um might transmit memories without context. 642 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: That's a pretty weird title, right, But then within context 643 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: the article refers back to McConnell's work quite a bit. 644 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: And the idea here is that some trace of the 645 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: of memory might be stored in neural circuits outside the 646 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 1: brain and certainly when you take that and you compare 647 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: it to these you know, these other into this previous study. Uh, 648 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: with with one brain being dropped into a new creature, 649 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: a new a new individual and seeing it, you know, 650 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: take root and uh and seemingly bounce back. Uh, that 651 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: becomes all the more interesting. Yeah. One of the things 652 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: that has clearly been the case, and this was discussed 653 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: in that article in the Verge we talked about in 654 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: the last episode, is that Levin's research has been focused 655 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,439 Speaker 1: on trying to eliminate some of the problems that could 656 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 1: have existed in the original McConnell research. One example is 657 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: that that he helped create um and a thing called 658 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: an automatic training apparatus. Basically, it's a robot for conditioning 659 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: the flatworms, take the human element element out of the 660 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: training process to eliminate any kind of bias or error 661 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: that could be introduced that way. But I love the 662 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: idea in general of a robot for training worms. So 663 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 1: that that two thousand thirteen study especially generated quite a 664 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: bit of interest, and at the time there was there 665 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: was mixed response from the scientific community. Now, I do 666 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: want to drive home that it is not my interpretation 667 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 1: that Michael Levan is anything like a McConnell figure. He seems. 668 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: He seems to be a very suffected researcher. And most 669 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 1: of his work, like I said, he's seeing on a 670 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 1: lot of studies for his general planaria research right now, 671 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. I haven't seen anything where Michael 672 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 1: Levin is going on TV and saying memory pills right right, 673 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: uh and uh and and by and large it seems 674 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,919 Speaker 1: like most of his work just deals with with regeneration, 675 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: uh in these planaria worms. But yeah, so you had 676 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: plenty of people that that were supportive and thought that, 677 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, they might be onto something. Others were a 678 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: little critical at the time. Robert Kintridge, I say it 679 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: was a psychologist at Durham University, and he pointed out 680 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,440 Speaker 1: in a two fifteen Verge article that Verge article we 681 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: cited earlier that it might be simply related to quote 682 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: behavior induced by a stress hormone itself triggered by the 683 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: textualized petrie dishes unquote. And to clarify, they're part of 684 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,720 Speaker 1: what the study looked at to see conditioning in the 685 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 1: flatworms was you'd have these textured petrie dishes where they 686 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: would be swimming around the food they were going to eat, 687 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,360 Speaker 1: and how fast they approached the food in a newly 688 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 1: textured Petrie dish environment was taken as a signal of 689 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: their memory or familiarity with the environment. Like you put 690 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: a new flatworm in a textured Petrie dish, its circles 691 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,040 Speaker 1: for a while before going for the food because it's 692 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: exploring its environment. It doesn't know. But after it's been 693 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: trained with the texture and a Petrie dish, it goes 694 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 1: straight for the food because it already knows the environment. Right. Yeah. 695 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,359 Speaker 1: So so basically a number of individuals UH said, well, 696 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: there there are aspects of the study that could have 697 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: been better designed. Sure. Now again, Michael Levin, his research continues. 698 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,319 Speaker 1: He and you you'll find a number of studies from 699 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: very recently that he's been involved with. He was an 700 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: author on a study earlier this year neural control of 701 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,320 Speaker 1: body plan access in regenerating planaria. And in two thousand 702 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: fifteen he put out a paper on the planarian regeneration 703 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,960 Speaker 1: model as deciphered by artificial intelligence. And uh that same 704 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: year he was also a co author on another study 705 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: UH that included the growth of extra heads. Yeah, I've 706 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: seen also that I think both within and outside of planaria. 707 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: He's just generally studied regeneration. Yeah, and with the poplinaria, 708 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: of course, it's it's just such an amazingly regenerative creature. 709 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: You get things like like this. Uh, the second study 710 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: that I mentioned from fifteen, they were able to induce 711 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: one species of flat worm to grow heads and brains 712 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: characteristic of another species of flat worm without altering genomic sequence, 713 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: and then the individual later regenerated to the appropriate head shape. 714 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 1: Now quickly, I guess one thing worth discussing is if 715 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: the research associated with with Michael Levin is in fact correct, 716 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: the results are valid, there's not some kind of flaw 717 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: we're missing in the design of the study. And uh, 718 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: and this is really going on. The memories are surviving 719 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: the regeneration without an original brain. How would you interpret this, Like, 720 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,919 Speaker 1: what does it mean if this is in fact true? Uh? 721 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: So a couple of ideas are given in the Verge article. 722 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: Leven hYP quote hypothesizes that memories could spread beyond the 723 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: brain thanks to electrical charges generated by cells and the 724 00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 1: rest of the body. So there's some kind of information 725 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,520 Speaker 1: encoding that's just like coming from cells in the other 726 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,840 Speaker 1: body that are electrically stimulating something like a memory response. 727 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,400 Speaker 1: But then there's another thing cited in the same piece 728 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: by Ava Jablanca, a developmental biologist at Tel Aviv University, 729 00:41:55,200 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: and she offers a speculative explanation involving particles called small RNAs, 730 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: which are short copies of DNA, but they don't turn 731 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 1: into proteins. They don't generate proteins. So when a flatworm 732 00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,720 Speaker 1: learns an association or an episode, something in this model 733 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: about the brain chemistry would change, and then these changes 734 00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: alter the small RNA is present in the body, which 735 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: of course are not confined to the brain because they 736 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: migrate around between cells. And by migrating around between cells, 737 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: she says, perhaps they end up in stem cells that 738 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: remain in the body. After the worm's head is cut off, 739 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,720 Speaker 1: and to read from the article quote, when the worm's 740 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,320 Speaker 1: head grows back, the small RNA's migrate back to the head, 741 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: changing the brain's chemistry and allowing it to learn certain 742 00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:49,320 Speaker 1: behaviors more quickly. Um If true, the memory that Levin 743 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,239 Speaker 1: thinks is stored outside the brain wouldn't be memory at all. Rather, 744 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: the small RNAs would allow the flatworm to recover a 745 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: brain environment that helps them learn a specific behavior more quickly. 746 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,520 Speaker 1: So the idea there is that if this speculative idea 747 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: is correct, and again she she's very clear to stay 748 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: this this isn't something we know. Is just a speculative interpretation. 749 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: Maybe it works this way, then what would be happening 750 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 1: is these little chemical molecules don't transmit the memory prepare 751 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: the new brain to learn a memory that was previously 752 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:26,280 Speaker 1: learned more quickly. Okay, so at least we have a 753 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:31,319 Speaker 1: hypothetical model of how this would actually work, which or 754 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: at least here's one model presented anyway, Sure, but ultimately 755 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:36,759 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure. And again another thing that 756 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: we don't know for sure is if these results do 757 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: hold up. Is this something that's specific to planaria? Is 758 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: it flatworms only that can transfer memories in this way 759 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: or could this be more applicable beyond flatworms to other organisms, 760 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: because that's the thing. Other organisms can't regenerate like a 761 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,919 Speaker 1: like a planaria can. But at the same time, we 762 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,800 Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that's often cited 763 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: for researching an area regeneration is that we might learn 764 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,800 Speaker 1: something that could be appliable to humans. Of course, especially 765 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: and with not even getting into memory implantation, just the 766 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: idea that they have such impressive neural regenerative powers, the 767 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: ability to regenerate like damaged brain cells. You know, if 768 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: we could, if we could develop some better method of 769 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: doing that based on our studies of these organisms, then 770 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 1: that would be tremendous. Of course. I mean though it 771 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,960 Speaker 1: when you introduce the idea of brain regeneration or anything 772 00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: like that to a human context, things emerge that don't 773 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: necessarily seem to be of concern. When you're talking about planaria. 774 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: Planaria don't seem to have extremely distinct personalities. Uh, you 775 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: know humans do you know, however much we want to 776 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: joke about humans acting like sheep and all being the 777 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: same we you know, we we've got a lot of 778 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: different stuff going on in our heads. If you cut 779 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,560 Speaker 1: your head off and regrow it, what indication would you 780 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,920 Speaker 1: have that the new head would be you in any 781 00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,560 Speaker 1: sense other than sharing your d n A. Well, I 782 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,280 Speaker 1: guess as long as it's said all the right things 783 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: and I mean just get along just fine, it would 784 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: be like a p zombie perhaps, Well, I mean, would it? 785 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 1: I guess it would be a question of whether it 786 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,880 Speaker 1: would retain any memories from your life, you could you 787 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: talk about whether that might be stored in the body somehow, 788 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: or even if you assume it, okay, it retains no 789 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,280 Speaker 1: memories whatsoever because those are just stored in the brain. 790 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: Whatever may or may not be happening in flatworms doesn't 791 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: happen and all at all in humans. Even if you 792 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,919 Speaker 1: assume all that, you'd also have to ask, like, would 793 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: its personality be the same as yours personality is so 794 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: shaped by life experience? I don't know. It makes me 795 00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: wonder has anyone ever considered creating a like a science 796 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 1: fiction yarn in which you look at what would human 797 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,879 Speaker 1: society be like if we had regenerative properties like this? 798 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: Like what would war be like? What would what would 799 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,879 Speaker 1: reproduction and society be like? I mean, granted, I think 800 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: the obvious answer, it would absolutely change everything. But the 801 00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: fun thing about science fiction is you don't you don't 802 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:01,560 Speaker 1: have to go all the way. You can just sort 803 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: of like tweak it, like what would this if we 804 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 1: if I were to look at this particular vision for 805 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: a totally regenerative plnary in human species, then what could 806 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,399 Speaker 1: I perhaps unravel about our actual human condition? Well? I mean, 807 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,680 Speaker 1: I think we pretty much all at some state, at 808 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: some point or other, get into a get into a 809 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: place where not very happy with our own brain. We 810 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: don't like the emotional patterns were feeling. Maybe we're ruminating 811 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,480 Speaker 1: in bad ways. I mean, this happens pretty often to people. 812 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,359 Speaker 1: So what if you had the option to you get 813 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:33,279 Speaker 1: into a bad state like that, you know, you can 814 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: just cut your head off and grow a new one. 815 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: These are exactly what the horrifying orange creatures in Labyrinth 816 00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: they're all about when they come up to Sarah and 817 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:45,239 Speaker 1: they encourage your Hey, take your own head off, throw 818 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,799 Speaker 1: it around, try on a different head, Let your head 819 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,000 Speaker 1: try it out, try itself out on a different body, 820 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,279 Speaker 1: see how it shakes out. Just you know, have to 821 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,879 Speaker 1: have a little fun. You're not a flat worm. Don't 822 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: try it people. All right, We're gonna go ahead and 823 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: close this out then, but we hope you have enjoyed 824 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: and then learned from this exploration. Perhaps you'll think of 825 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: flat worms in a new light now, and perhaps you 826 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,400 Speaker 1: will even second guest memory a little bit as well. 827 00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,520 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other 828 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:15,400 Speaker 1: episodes of stuff to blow your mind, you'll find them. 829 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: It's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. 830 00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: And you can also find our podcast Tack just about 831 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,520 Speaker 1: everywhere else anywhere you get the podcast, though, we do 832 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: ask that you leave us a nice review, leave us 833 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: some stars, that sort of that makes you subscribed. That 834 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 1: kind of thing really helps us out in the long run. Also, 835 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,399 Speaker 1: if you want other shows who were involved with there 836 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,560 Speaker 1: is Invention. Invention is a journey through human techno history, 837 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:41,319 Speaker 1: one invention at a time. Go check that out. It's 838 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,799 Speaker 1: an invention pod dot com and you can also find 839 00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: it anywhere you get your podcasts. Just look up Invention. 840 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,400 Speaker 1: If you want a little serialized horror sci fi for 841 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 1: your holiday season, check out the second oil age that 842 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,680 Speaker 1: is out as well. And I'm also told that the 843 00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,319 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind t shirt shop UH is 844 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: not only still around it, it is been around uh 845 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,040 Speaker 1: and it still has all those wonderful squirrel and Vasilisk 846 00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,480 Speaker 1: and buy Camera and Mind designs, as well as their 847 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,840 Speaker 1: logo designs. But there's gonna be a new logo for 848 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,919 Speaker 1: the Thanksgiving Ish holiday, and there's gonna be some sort 849 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,319 Speaker 1: of a sale coming up. Right. If you've got a 850 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,279 Speaker 1: friend or family member who's a fan of the show. 851 00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:18,880 Speaker 1: You want to get him a holiday gift. Maybe you 852 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,279 Speaker 1: should get them a Sphere Catastro feat shirt or a 853 00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,880 Speaker 1: Squirrels Are Not What They Seem shirt, any one of 854 00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,200 Speaker 1: the many wonderful offerings we've got for you right in 855 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 1: the merch place. So go into the merch pit, come out, 856 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: come out with treasures anyway. Huge thanks as always to 857 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,200 Speaker 1: our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 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