1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,880
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

3
00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

4
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

5
00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,039
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

6
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,520
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust that's.

7
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,079
Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

8
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

9
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:19,919
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

10
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,279
Speaker 3: Trust me, trust me, trust me.

11
00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:24,960
Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

12
00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,280
Speaker 3: I've never lived. To you, I never a live.

13
00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:31,560
Speaker 2: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

14
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:36,199
Speaker 2: Don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

15
00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,559
Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two founding daughters who've actually experienced it.

16
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,199
Speaker 2: I'm Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And today our

17
00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,159
Speaker 2: guest is Andrew Seidel, constitutional attorney fighting for the separation

18
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 2: of church and state. He's got a YouTube channel, he's

19
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 2: written books, he's done it all. He's going to define

20
00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 2: what Christian nationalism is and why it's based on a myth,

21
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 2: how the separation of church and state was an explicit

22
00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,120
Speaker 2: intention that was uniquely American, and why it matters why

23
00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 2: prayer in schools and government is antithetical to the first

24
00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 2: Amendment and how mentions of God and things like the

25
00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,680
Speaker 2: Pledge of Allegiance were only added in the nineteen fifties.

26
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,399
Speaker 1: I did not know that. A lot of surprising information.

27
00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 1: In this episode. We'll discuss recent Christian nationalist decisions in

28
00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,440
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, the worst case scenario of where this goes,

29
00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 1: the practice of Bible cherry picking, how many Christians do

30
00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 1: understand the importance of the separation of Church and state

31
00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,080
Speaker 1: and want to preserve it, and so much more.

32
00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,479
Speaker 2: Amen, There's so much information in this episode you might

33
00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,200
Speaker 2: need to listen to it several times. Lots of really

34
00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 2: good stuff. I've been wanting to do an episode on

35
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,160
Speaker 2: this for a while. Before we jump in, what's your cult?

36
00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 2: Do you thing?

37
00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 1: Mecond, I'm diving in deep with Jill Dugger's new book

38
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,400
Speaker 1: Counting the Cost, where she talks about her experience growing

39
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,600
Speaker 1: up in the Dugger cult, which we recently did an

40
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,560
Speaker 1: episode on Wow, the famous Megan Kelly interview that her

41
00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,880
Speaker 1: and her sister were forced to do where they denounced

42
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 1: basically that her brother did anything wrong to them. Josh Duggar,

43
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: who's now in prison for being a pedophile. Uh, he

44
00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,359
Speaker 1: was in the room with them at the Megan Kelly interview,

45
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: watching them her brother Josh show. And so she's just

46
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 1: blowing the lid off of how dark it really got

47
00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,079
Speaker 1: for her.

48
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,640
Speaker 4: And I'm so obsessed with her. I love her so much.

49
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,600
Speaker 1: I think she's so brave, And I just wanted to

50
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,400
Speaker 1: throw out some support to Jill Duggar.

51
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:28,160
Speaker 4: Counting the cost.

52
00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, God, you read so many books that I

53
00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,280
Speaker 2: do not ever make time for. Oh, don't say it

54
00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:39,320
Speaker 2: like that, because you read so fast, Like I have

55
00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:41,799
Speaker 2: to make more time for it than you do. Yeah,

56
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 2: so I can't read as many books as you can

57
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,919
Speaker 2: because you're such a freaking speed reader. The one benefit

58
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: of being a two by two member if.

59
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,119
Speaker 1: You do find yourself a little bit of extra time

60
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:52,680
Speaker 1: on your hand.

61
00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 4: Counting the cost, it's pretty crazy.

62
00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:55,480
Speaker 3: Oh.

63
00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,040
Speaker 1: Also, she like didn't make any money from her whole

64
00:02:58,120 --> 00:02:59,040
Speaker 1: time on the show.

65
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,239
Speaker 4: So let's support book, you know. Wow?

66
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, her dad is the worst. I believe it,

67
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,760
Speaker 2: considering everything we know so far.

68
00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 4: Well, what about you, what's the cultiest thing that happened

69
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,440
Speaker 4: to you this week? You've had a week, I've had

70
00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 4: a couple of weeks.

71
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,880
Speaker 2: I'm back, y'all. I've been gone I had a really

72
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:23,639
Speaker 2: challenging family medical emergency. And I don't really even have

73
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,760
Speaker 2: a fully baked cultiest thing this week because I've just

74
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,960
Speaker 2: been so emotionally exhausted by this. But I will say

75
00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,480
Speaker 2: that my brother, who has struggled with addiction his entire life,

76
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 2: did overdose, and he did medically die twice before being revived.

77
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 2: And the trajectory that he has been on from us

78
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,480
Speaker 2: being told he was brain dead in the beginning to

79
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 2: him now out of the ICU and in beginning the

80
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 2: process of rehabilitation for his brain, We've had nurses describe

81
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,839
Speaker 2: it as miraculous. There's little pieces of information that I

82
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 2: will not share publicly that, you know, me being the

83
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 2: super skeptic that I am and the super skeptic that

84
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 2: I am, there is a little piece of me that's like, Okay,

85
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,120
Speaker 2: I understand, I understand because this was amazing, and like

86
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,640
Speaker 2: to be clear, there's a long, long road ahead. He

87
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 2: had no oxygen to his brain and so you know

88
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,720
Speaker 2: that journey is going to be probably pretty pretty difficult.

89
00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 2: I'm going to be out of town a lot. But

90
00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 2: he's alive and he's walking and he's starting to talk,

91
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,720
Speaker 2: and we were told that he was brain dead, So

92
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,520
Speaker 2: that's fucking awesome. And I will probably have so much

93
00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:41,080
Speaker 2: more to say about addiction, about our healthcare system, about

94
00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 2: the way that we treat low income people, and how

95
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:46,960
Speaker 2: much more disadvantage they are when it comes to their

96
00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:48,880
Speaker 2: mental health, when it comes to them getting the treatment

97
00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:50,479
Speaker 2: that they need. I will have so many things to

98
00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 2: say about this, but for right now, I'm just going

99
00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 2: to say that I'm so grateful that I still have

100
00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 2: my brother, and thank you for everyone who because I

101
00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,800
Speaker 2: did post on my Instagram saying that we needed housing

102
00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 2: in Salt Lake and a lot of people came through

103
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,840
Speaker 2: and a lot of people supported us. So thank you

104
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 2: to everyone who did that, and that's my cuiltiest thing.

105
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,080
Speaker 4: I'm so glad that he's still with us.

106
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:16,840
Speaker 1: Praise be it to whatever it is, to whatever it is,

107
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 1: you know. Getting into this episode, I will say, there's

108
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 1: a point where I point out that I have some

109
00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,960
Speaker 1: unconscious bias that I didn't even know I had, where

110
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,400
Speaker 1: I'm like, don't take out God from the pledge of allegiance,

111
00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 1: Like I didn't even know that was in me, you know,

112
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,000
Speaker 1: which was interesting to explore and I didn't realize it

113
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 1: was put in so late in the game God in

114
00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:41,800
Speaker 1: the first place. So there's just a lot of really

115
00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,200
Speaker 1: good information here. If you are of a political leaning

116
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:49,520
Speaker 1: that's not left, you might find some of it not relatable.

117
00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 1: But I think the information in there is valuable enough

118
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 1: to keep listening, even if you find some of it

119
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,520
Speaker 1: a little bit generalized.

120
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think everyone who's conveying any information

121
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 2: always has a degree of bias, myself included. But ultimately,

122
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,000
Speaker 2: to me, some of the core information of this episode

123
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: has to do with just actual history, totally actual history

124
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,720
Speaker 2: and myths about history, and I think it's really important

125
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,320
Speaker 2: for everyone to know. So keep an open mind.

126
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,039
Speaker 4: Yes, so keep an open mind. Let us know what

127
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:19,480
Speaker 4: you think.

128
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,800
Speaker 1: We're so happy to hear about your brother, Lola, and

129
00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:23,280
Speaker 1: we can't wait for you to listen.

130
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:33,200
Speaker 5: To this episode.

131
00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,960
Speaker 2: Welcome Andrew's seidel to trust me. Thank you for being

132
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 2: with us today.

133
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on. It's a pleasure.

134
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've been consuming your content. You got lots of content, man,

135
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:47,680
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

136
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,839
Speaker 3: Yeah. I spent a lot of time working on it,

137
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 3: so it's nice to note it's out there and actually

138
00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:53,760
Speaker 3: being consumed. I appreciate it.

139
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about who you

140
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 2: are and what your background is and your education and such.

141
00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,440
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm a custom social attorney by training. I've been

142
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,040
Speaker 3: fighting to keep church and states separate for more than

143
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,040
Speaker 3: a decade now, on the front lines defending the country

144
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,800
Speaker 3: against the rising tide of Christian nationalism. So I initially

145
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,600
Speaker 3: was arguing in cases of religious freedom, free speech, and

146
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,080
Speaker 3: the separation of church and state in court, litigating these

147
00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,840
Speaker 3: cases every single day, day in, day out. The more

148
00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:29,119
Speaker 3: the courts were taken over by this Christian nationalist movement

149
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 3: that we've seen gaining power in the country, the more

150
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,200
Speaker 3: I realized we needed people who could explain these kind

151
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 3: of complicated legal issues in terms that everybody could understand,

152
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 3: that you could tie to your everyday life. So I've

153
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,200
Speaker 3: been spending more of my time kind of fighting these

154
00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,240
Speaker 3: battles in the public square and in the court of

155
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,720
Speaker 3: public opinion that I have in court. As of late,

156
00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,559
Speaker 3: I have a couple of different law degrees. I've written

157
00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 3: a couple of different books. I've written a sext book

158
00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 3: for law students on this.

159
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,320
Speaker 2: So you also have a degree in min neuroscience. Is

160
00:07:59,360 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 2: that right?

161
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I side.

162
00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,560
Speaker 4: Can you define Christian nationalism.

163
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 3: Yes, and if you ask, you know, you're gonna get

164
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,120
Speaker 3: different answers to this depending on who you ask. But

165
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism is sort of this fusion of theology and

166
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 3: politics that's advanced in pursuit of political power power in

167
00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,160
Speaker 3: the here and now. I like to define it as

168
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,440
Speaker 3: a belief that the United States was founded as a

169
00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,360
Speaker 3: Christian nation, that we are based on Judeo Christian principles,

170
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 3: and most importantly, that we've strayed from that foundation, right,

171
00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 3: that we've gotten away from those godly roots.

172
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:38,760
Speaker 1: But we think of them as the Pilgrims coming over

173
00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 1: to be all christian y, right, we do.

174
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,679
Speaker 3: We do. I mean, and it's not a mistake that

175
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 3: that's what we think about. I mean, that's it's a

176
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,080
Speaker 3: good example. And we use the Christian nationalists rather use

177
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,800
Speaker 3: the language of return, of getting back to those godly roots,

178
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 3: to that city upon a hill that the Pilgrims tried.

179
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,760
Speaker 2: To create a city of murdering Native Americans and colonizing civilization. Yeah,

180
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:00,719
Speaker 2: go on, yeah, no.

181
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,199
Speaker 3: I mean it was this what was created in Massachusetts

182
00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 3: back in the day by the Pilgrims and the Puritans

183
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 3: was sort of this monochromatic theocracy, and it was something

184
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,800
Speaker 3: when the framers of our constitution, they look, there's a

185
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 3: lot wrong with our constitution, but there's a few things

186
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 3: they got right. In the separation of church and state

187
00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,920
Speaker 3: was one of those things that they got right. And

188
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 3: when they look back at what the Pilgrims and the

189
00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:22,680
Speaker 3: Puritans had done, they were like, Hey, we actually don't

190
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,320
Speaker 3: want like any part of that theocracy style. We're gonna

191
00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,160
Speaker 3: go ahead and not do that. We're going to separate

192
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:30,400
Speaker 3: church and state and keep the church out of the government,

193
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,599
Speaker 3: keep the government out of the church. And that was

194
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,559
Speaker 3: one of the things they really were working to avoid.

195
00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,439
Speaker 3: So we have this Christian nationalist movement that is working

196
00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 3: to bury one of the truly unique and original aspects

197
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,719
Speaker 3: of our countries, founding under these myths about us being

198
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,720
Speaker 3: a Christian nation of for and by conservative Christians.

199
00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:51,160
Speaker 2: So can you explain why and how it is a

200
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,040
Speaker 2: myth that the United States is a Christian nation laid

201
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,199
Speaker 2: out for us like we're children.

202
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,880
Speaker 3: Yes, So, I mean, first, I did write an entire

203
00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 3: book about this, but people to pick up called the

204
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,680
Speaker 3: founding myth why Christian nationalism is un American? The place

205
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,640
Speaker 3: I like to start, though, is with that wall of

206
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 3: separation between church and state, because that is an American original,

207
00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,360
Speaker 3: that is an American invention. The idea was floating around

208
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,640
Speaker 3: in the Enlightenment, but it was first implemented in the

209
00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,920
Speaker 3: American experiment. Until then, no other nation in the history

210
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,640
Speaker 3: of the world had sought to protect the ability of

211
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 3: its citizens to think freely by separating religion and government.

212
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,200
Speaker 3: And again, a lot wrong with our Constitution, but that

213
00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 3: is one of the things that they got right, and

214
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,600
Speaker 3: we can actually be proud of that, and I certainly

215
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,560
Speaker 3: think we shouldn't let people undermine it with myths about

216
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,199
Speaker 3: a Christian founding. And if you look at the truly

217
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 3: original and unique aspects of our Constitution, they are all secular.

218
00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,800
Speaker 3: So our Constitution was the first to declare that power

219
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 3: comes from the people, not God's. That's what the first

220
00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 3: three words mean, we the people. Those words are poetic,

221
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 3: but they're also so much more than that, their declaration

222
00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 3: of power. Our Constitution was the first governing document not

223
00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 3: to mention a God or a deity, and it was

224
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,080
Speaker 3: by choice, by design, not by accident. And in fact,

225
00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,199
Speaker 3: there was quite a few people in the founding generation

226
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,360
Speaker 3: that were pissed off about that choice. Our Constitution was

227
00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,559
Speaker 3: the first to ban religious tests for public office. This

228
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 3: is an article six, and that's actually the only mention

229
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,360
Speaker 3: of religion in the original unamended document, and it's actually

230
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,959
Speaker 3: some of the most clear and emphatic language. If you

231
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,280
Speaker 3: remember back to your history classes, our constitution often was

232
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,319
Speaker 3: kind of deliberately vague. They sort of laid out of structure,

233
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,800
Speaker 3: and they knew that later folks would come put meat

234
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 3: on those bones. But that's not the case with the

235
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,959
Speaker 3: ban on religious tests. It says, no religious tests shall

236
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,920
Speaker 3: ever be required for any office of public trust whatsoever.

237
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 3: I mean, no shall ever any They were really really

238
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,760
Speaker 3: clear and emphatic about what they were doing. We say

239
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 3: to founding fathers, and this is one of the things

240
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,360
Speaker 3: I point out early in the Founding myth. We say

241
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 3: to founding fathers as though they are sort of this coherent, cohesive,

242
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 3: all on the same page group of people, and that

243
00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,360
Speaker 3: was just not the case. But most of them disagree

244
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,040
Speaker 3: about everyone. Yeah, But there were a lot of the

245
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:04,559
Speaker 3: leading lights that we know of today were very much

246
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,040
Speaker 3: in favor of the separation of church and state. Not

247
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,840
Speaker 3: just folks like Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine, who maybe

248
00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 3: people might think of when they think of that separation,

249
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,839
Speaker 3: but also George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams.

250
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,839
Speaker 3: I mean, most of the founding fathers were really in

251
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 3: favor of this idea, and that's why it was written

252
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,200
Speaker 3: into our Constitution, in really throughout the entire fabric of

253
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,400
Speaker 3: the Constitution in these clear and important ways.

254
00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 2: How does the first Amendment begin.

255
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,920
Speaker 3: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

256
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,840
Speaker 3: or prohibiting the free exercise thereof which I don't know.

257
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty clear.

258
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,480
Speaker 2: So when did the thinking about this start to change?

259
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,320
Speaker 2: How did this evolve into this idea we have now?

260
00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,640
Speaker 3: So we have seen sort of waves of Christian nationalism

261
00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:58,520
Speaker 3: throughout American history that have pushed back on this idea

262
00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:00,360
Speaker 3: of the separation of church and state. One of the

263
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,199
Speaker 3: crucial things about Christian nationalism that everybody listening needs to

264
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,160
Speaker 3: understand is that its goal is to create two different

265
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,760
Speaker 3: classes of people. And if you are a member of

266
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 3: that special favored class, the law protects you, but you're

267
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,400
Speaker 3: not bound by the law. So you're protected but not

268
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 3: bound by the law. And if you're anybody else. You

269
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,840
Speaker 3: are bound by the law but not protected. And you

270
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 3: can see it in some of the public policy pushes

271
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,679
Speaker 3: that we saw that are either explicitly or very clearly

272
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:30,719
Speaker 3: Christian nationalists. I think back to the beginning of the

273
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,200
Speaker 3: Trump administration where you've got some really good examples of this,

274
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 3: the child separation policy at the border. People don't remember

275
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 3: that Attorney General, then Attorney General Jeff Sessions justified that

276
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 3: by pointing to the Bible, by pointing to Romans thirteen.

277
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,280
Speaker 3: He learned to do that in the White House Bible Study.

278
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,839
Speaker 3: Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who is now governor of Arkansaw but

279
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 3: was then the White House spokesperson, said the same thing.

280
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 3: They're pointing to the Bible to justify separating brown families

281
00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:03,240
Speaker 3: at the border. Christian nationalism is not this scholarly debate

282
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 3: about how our country was founded, about our history. It

283
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:11,400
Speaker 3: is a sinister, exclusionary movement. It rewrites our history in

284
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 3: an attempt to redefine America according to the Christian nationalist

285
00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,360
Speaker 3: identity and then to reshape our law accordingly, basically so

286
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 3: that to be an American is to be a Christian

287
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 3: and to be a Christian is to be an American

288
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 3: with a big asterisk beside Christian, because you got to

289
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 3: be the right kind of Christian for this to apply

290
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 3: to you.

291
00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 2: So how does say people who are fighting for there

292
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 2: to be prayer in schools or Christian symbolism in government spaces, Well,

293
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,520
Speaker 2: first of all, tell us why we shouldn't do that.

294
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 2: Tell us why that's bad.

295
00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,840
Speaker 3: First of all, we have prayer in schools. There's a

296
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,320
Speaker 3: really old joke that dads love to tell, not me,

297
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,920
Speaker 3: but I have to repeat it, and that's that as

298
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,240
Speaker 3: long as there are math tests in public schools, there

299
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 3: will be prayer too. Kids are able to pray all

300
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 3: they want. They can pray before they have their lunch

301
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 3: in the lunchroom. Of course, kids can pray. That's never

302
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 3: been off the tab. What we have said as a

303
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,320
Speaker 3: society we do not want the government imposing one particular

304
00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,400
Speaker 3: brand of religion on other people's children. That it is

305
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 3: an abusive power for teachers or administrators to impose their

306
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,720
Speaker 3: personal religion using their government office or their government power,

307
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:24,440
Speaker 3: and to impose that on other people's kids. Right, So,

308
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 3: what we're talking about when we're talking about prayer in

309
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:32,440
Speaker 3: school is there's no organized school, created, school, drafted school

310
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 3: imposed prayer on kids. And that's the way it should be,

311
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 3: because you cannot have real religious freedom without a government

312
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,320
Speaker 3: that's free from religion. You have to have a secular government,

313
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 3: a secular public school to have that true religious freedom.

314
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 1: So we were talking before the episode, like what have

315
00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,080
Speaker 1: you said, Hey, there's ten minutes for prayer during school,

316
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,440
Speaker 1: but you can pray to Satan, you can pray.

317
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 4: To this or that, you can pray to whatever is.

318
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,240
Speaker 2: So are you going to do it? Have you a

319
00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 2: little atheist? Yeah?

320
00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,320
Speaker 4: Or you can pray to nothing, or you can go

321
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:06,040
Speaker 4: to recess.

322
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,040
Speaker 2: What about something like that?

323
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,880
Speaker 3: So that's been proposed. It's typically there. We would call

324
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,040
Speaker 3: them like moments of silence, and it kind of depends

325
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 3: because often you see schools and school districts doing that

326
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 3: knowing that there's going to be pressure on kids to

327
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 3: join the majority Christian prayers or knowing that yeah, okay,

328
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 3: exactly so. And you'll see legislators in the past, and

329
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 3: there's there's a couple of court cases on this, for instance,

330
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,520
Speaker 3: legislators knowing and saying that when they're trying to pass

331
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,840
Speaker 3: these bills. So if you just read the text of

332
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 3: the law, it maybe looks like it's fine, but when

333
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 3: you actually look at why they were trying to do it,

334
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 3: it's very clear why they were They were trying to

335
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 3: do it, and that was to impose Christianity on other

336
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:50,680
Speaker 3: people's children. Right.

337
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,840
Speaker 2: If I'm a Muslim kid and I'm in Texas and

338
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 2: all of the rest of the children in class are

339
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 2: doing a Christian prayer, I'm going to feel awkward about

340
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,440
Speaker 2: being over here doing my own separate thing. You're a kid,

341
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:03,480
Speaker 2: you feel that pressure.

342
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 4: And if I'm practicing witchcraft, I might feel.

343
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,159
Speaker 2: Awkward cursing everyone in the class.

344
00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'd still do it.

345
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,560
Speaker 3: I mean. Another part of that is that there are

346
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,959
Speaker 3: groups out there, especially conservative Christian groups, that specifically target

347
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,359
Speaker 3: kids in public schools that they try to use their

348
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 3: own children to evangelize other people's children within this what

349
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,119
Speaker 3: they call this four to fourteen window. There are entire

350
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 3: ministries that target kids in this age four to fourteen window.

351
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 3: And that's because according to some of the studies that

352
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 3: they base this off of that I think it's like

353
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,920
Speaker 3: eighty five percent of the people select their lifelong religion

354
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,040
Speaker 3: but in that window, So you have a lot of

355
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 3: these top strategists of the Christian nationalist movement saying that

356
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,040
Speaker 3: if we don't get into the public schools to evangelize

357
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,720
Speaker 3: these kids, they're not going to be Christians. There are

358
00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:59,679
Speaker 3: instances of this, and I get to this some of

359
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 3: this new book American Crusade, where you have cases that

360
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,600
Speaker 3: involve that working their way up to the Supreme Court essentially.

361
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,720
Speaker 3: So I wish it was that cut and dry, but

362
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,760
Speaker 3: really the best policy is to just have public schools

363
00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 3: be secular. And so that doesn't mean that you're you're

364
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 3: imposing religion or atheism on kids. It just means that

365
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:24,000
Speaker 3: what you're doing is math or science or The problem

366
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:25,199
Speaker 3: is that gets painted a lot.

367
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,159
Speaker 2: Now, do you have any thoughts on the work of

368
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,119
Speaker 2: the Satanic Temple, who for listeners who don't know, the

369
00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,879
Speaker 2: Satanic Temple emphasize pluralism, and wherever there is like Christian iconography,

370
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,920
Speaker 2: Christian statue, or whatever their whole thing is, then they'll

371
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,120
Speaker 2: put up a statue of Satan or bath.

372
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,760
Speaker 4: It's totally fine that statue exists. We're just going to

373
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 4: put up this statue as well.

374
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,080
Speaker 2: And people are very offended by that and think, well,

375
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 2: that's up the devil. But it's like, if you actually

376
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 2: believe in this American idea of freedom of religion, then

377
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,120
Speaker 2: we should be able to have our Satan statue here.

378
00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:55,639
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on that stuff?

379
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,720
Speaker 3: So I know Lucian Creed, he's on our show as well. Yeah,

380
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,719
Speaker 3: I've worked on a number of projects together, both in

381
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,840
Speaker 3: front of the scenes and behind the scenes. In front

382
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,479
Speaker 3: of the scenes is not a phrase, but we'll just

383
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 3: go there. I appreciate some of the work they do.

384
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that they do really

385
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 3: really well is they highlight the hypocrisy of christianshes because again,

386
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 3: the goal of this movement that we are seeing right

387
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 3: now again is to privilege these chosen few right so

388
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,439
Speaker 3: that the law protects them but doesn't bind them, and

389
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 3: it binds everybody else but doesn't protect them. And the

390
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,840
Speaker 3: Satanic Temple does a really good job of showing that

391
00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 3: because a lot of the times when they will go

392
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 3: in to these supposedly open forums where it's it's like, okay,

393
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,400
Speaker 3: we are just having this space for anybody to exercise

394
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 3: their religion, they come in and say, okay, well that

395
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 3: includes us. Then all of a sudden you have this uproar,

396
00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,600
Speaker 3: you have a backlash and you get to see that no,

397
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 3: this really is about privileging this narrow slice of conservative

398
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 3: Christianity to the exclusion of everybody else, because the Satanic

399
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,280
Speaker 3: Temple isn't often excluded, right.

400
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 2: I would say, like, like, I have a lot of

401
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 2: family members who are Christian or a Republican, and I

402
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,480
Speaker 2: feel like their perspective might be along the lines of, like, well,

403
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,040
Speaker 2: we're not trying to harm anyone with Christianity.

404
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,360
Speaker 1: What's the difference between a Christian who's just like, well,

405
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,680
Speaker 1: I want to get in there between four and fourteen

406
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,160
Speaker 1: to save someone's sold because otherwise they're going to Hell.

407
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: I honestly believe that, and somebody who's just like wants

408
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 1: to control people and might not even believe these tenants.

409
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,360
Speaker 3: Well, I mean without being able to read their minds,

410
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: I would say that the difference is the machinery of

411
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 3: the state. Right, So the difference is, I do believe

412
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 3: that you, as a Christian have a right to try

413
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 3: to save people's souls, if especially if that's something that

414
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 3: you believe. What you don't have a right to do

415
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 3: is abuse power attached to a government office, abuse the

416
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: resources attached to a government office, and that includes whether

417
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 3: being a public school teacher, being a coach at a

418
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,600
Speaker 3: public school, being a principal, or being a president of

419
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,359
Speaker 3: the United States. You can do that in your personal capacity,

420
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 3: in your personal life, but you don't get to abuse

421
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,199
Speaker 3: the power that is attached to our secular government to

422
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 3: impose your personal religion on other people. That's what we're

423
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 3: really talking about when we're talking about the separation of

424
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 3: church and state. A lot of the times, the questions

425
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 3: that arise when religion and the law collide are often,

426
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 3: like actually pretty easy to resolve if you boil them

427
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 3: down to their most basic level. And I think that's

428
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,199
Speaker 3: one of the things that we can do here. I

429
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: don't have a problem with missus Johnson who wants to

430
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 3: teach Sunday school and teach kids about the story of

431
00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 3: Noah's Ark. I mean, I think there are some real

432
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 3: problems with that story and it's like barbaric in certain ways.

433
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 3: But that's just my personal opinion, and I'd be happy

434
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 3: to disagree with her over guacamole or something like that.

435
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: But you know, I do have a problem if she

436
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 3: tries to do that in a public school to other

437
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 3: people's children. Our public schools are again, they're meant to

438
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,520
Speaker 3: be open and welcoming to all, not just to the

439
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 3: people who are of the scare quotes.

440
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 4: Right, Where does the Pledge of Allegiance fall into that?

441
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Pledge of Allience is a really interesting case

442
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,679
Speaker 3: because it was, first of all, it was written by

443
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 3: a socialist minister and didn't originally include the phrase under God.

444
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,400
Speaker 3: It's not until I mentioned earlier that we've seen previous

445
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 3: waves of Christian nationalism throughout American history, and in the

446
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 3: early nineteen fifties we had a really big wave of

447
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism that crashed over the country and it left

448
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 3: behind all of these disfiguring scars that the modern wave

449
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,920
Speaker 3: of Christian nationalists point two to argue that we really

450
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: are a Christian value, right, And the Pledge of Legions

451
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 3: is like a perfect example because under God is added

452
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,840
Speaker 3: to the Pledge of Legions. In the early nineteen fifties,

453
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,640
Speaker 3: it used to be one nation, indivisible until we literally

454
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 3: divided the indivisible with God one of the most divisive

455
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 3: his forces in the history of the world. So, and

456
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 3: it's not just the Pledge of Legions we get in God,

457
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 3: we trust adopted as the national motto. Then it's added

458
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 3: to our paper currency in the fifties. In the fifties

459
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,440
Speaker 3: you get the national dayes.

460
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: But I mean, this seems so odd because we're coming

461
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: off kind of of World War Two.

462
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 3: You would think it's absolutely fascinating. It really is.

463
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: Where did that movement come from in the fifties?

464
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, what is happening?

465
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 3: So there's there's two things primarily that were happening. And

466
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,320
Speaker 3: I get it again, all of this is all one

467
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 3: is McCarthyism, where you have you have witch hunts of

468
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 3: the McCarthy era. And to be to be different, to

469
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 3: not be a conservative Christian is to be a pinko,

470
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: to be a commie. You know, all these these terrible things.

471
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 3: And there are you know, witch hunts going on. But

472
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 3: there's also something more sinister that's going on that dates

473
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 3: back to the New Deal. And you have big business, millionaires,

474
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: billionaires trying to undo all of the social progress and

475
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 3: legislation and social safety nets of the New Deal, all

476
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 3: of the regulations that hold big business back from capitalizing

477
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 3: on labor, from exploiting labor. And you see for the

478
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,879
Speaker 3: first time, and this is really well documented now the

479
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 3: alliance of these millionaires and billionaires with conservative Christianity, and

480
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 3: essentially they create this program called Religion in American Life,

481
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 3: and they effectively market a brand of Christianity to the

482
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 3: American public that is anti New Deal. So it's just

483
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 3: anti government, anti regulation.

484
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: But that's a big part of the owner and to

485
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: make more profit basically.

486
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: And explaining it. And so you have that, and you

487
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: have that wave crash over the country in the early

488
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: nineteen fifties, and so you get in God, we trust

489
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 3: one nation under God, you get the National Prayer Breakfast

490
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 3: is started, Then the National Day of Prayer is adopted.

491
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 3: Then they put a prayer room in the Capitol, and

492
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 3: they put a stained glass window in there of Washington

493
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 3: praying in the snow at Valley Forge, which never happened.

494
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: What was the connection that they made, Like, I'm really

495
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:55,920
Speaker 2: fascinated with how Rovy weighed like people orchestrated then an

496
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: alignment of evangelical Christians and this idea that abortion is

497
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: wrong that did not previous exist. How did they tie

498
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 2: those things together in the fifties, Christianity and being anti

499
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 2: New Deal.

500
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 3: It's a lot of the things that we kind of

501
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 3: take for granted in the discourse today. So the bootstrapping

502
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: sort of narratives. I mean, really, what you have is

503
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: you have a new theology that is preached that is

504
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: effectively anti government, anti government regulation of any way, shape

505
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 3: or form. And I think you're pointing to Roe versus

506
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 3: Wade is a really really good example of that as well,

507
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: because we know that abortion was chosen as the wedge issue. Yeah,

508
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 3: so they needed a new issue, and then you have

509
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: them casting about for something and settling on abortion. Right,

510
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 3: Jerry Fowell, part of the Moral Majority, doesn't preach us

511
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 3: first sermon on abortion until five years after a roversus

512
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 3: Wads decided.

513
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: This is the thing that I think is maybe the

514
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: most interesting thing on the planet, which is just this

515
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: idea that like, we believe all of these things that

516
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: we take for granted as part of our belief systems,

517
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: whatever we are. And then if you actually look at

518
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: the history of where that belief comes from, there's usually

519
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 2: some corporation or billionaire or multimillionaire who is scheming to

520
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: try to market to you for their own means, for

521
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 2: their own profit. I mean, it just happens so much,

522
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 2: and it's mind blowing because you're like no, I believe

523
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 2: what I believe because I well know what's right.

524
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: And also like I don't even really identify as religious

525
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 1: at all. Granted I'm a white person who benefits from

526
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: the system, but unconsciously like taking God out of the

527
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: pledge of allegiance, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's so scary.

528
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,239
Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, I feel like we have to be

529
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: united under something, and God can mean anything and united

530
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: and I don't know, it's just it's just a huge

531
00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:00,679
Speaker 1: to me that there's this unconscious fear that rises, and.

532
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: I feel like we're sold this myth that you've talked

533
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 2: about the Ten Commandments. Without the Ten Commandments or without

534
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: like Christianity as are guiding moral principle, we'll just fall

535
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: into disarray and we'll all start murdering each other.

536
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 4: Happiting each other's wives, doing all of it.

537
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 3: I think that's a great point, And the Ten Commandments

538
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 3: is like one of my favorite things to talk about ever,

539
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,959
Speaker 3: because I think it's a really great example of what

540
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: you're both talking about right now. Like we think of

541
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: the Ten Commandments as this really great moral law, right

542
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 3: maybe the most moral law. That's why you see these

543
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 3: monuments displayed on Capitol grounds in Colorado and in Texas,

544
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 3: And it really is one of the more common myths

545
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 3: that we see surrounding Christian nationalism. But if you actually

546
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 3: look at the Ten Commandments, they fundamentally conflict with some

547
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: of our nation's core principles. Yes, yes, some of the

548
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,719
Speaker 3: Ten Commandments overlap with criminal laws that prohibit murder and

549
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 3: theft and perjury, but those rules are not exclusive or

550
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 3: original to Judeo Christianity, however we might define that nebulous term, right,

551
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: those are universal human principles that every successful society we

552
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 3: know of has adopted.

553
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: So which ones go against it?

554
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: So the ten well, first of all, we really ought

555
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 3: to ask the question which ten commandments are we talking

556
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 3: about here? Because in any given Bible there are four

557
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 3: sets of ten commandments Exodus twenty, Exodus thirty four, Deuteronomy five,

558
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 3: and Deuteronomy twenty seven. And most people think of the

559
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 3: Ten Commandments as like the Charlton Heston Nelson de Mille version.

560
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 3: Those aren't actually called the ten Commandments in the Bible.

561
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 3: It's the next set in Exodus thirty four that are

562
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 3: called the ten Commandments. Then different religions interpret them differently. Yeah,

563
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: I know, if this is the problem with the atheists,

564
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 3: we really do know the Bible time before. But so

565
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 3: we'll just start with the Exodus twenty They begin, I

566
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: am the Lord's your God. You shall have no other

567
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 3: gods before me. Okay, that is a divine command that

568
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: embodies principles which directly conflict with the principles on which

569
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: the United States was founded. Right, no law can tell

570
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: an American to worship a god, let alone which god.

571
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: We are free to be godless, as a growing number are,

572
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: or we can worship every God from every Holy book

573
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: if you want so. I think it's fair to call

574
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: that an un American commandment. And they continue in this

575
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 3: Unamerican vein right prohibiting free exercise or excuse me, free

576
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 3: expression and art in the graven images or idols, prohibition

577
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 3: prohibiting free speech, right taking the Lord's name in vain.

578
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 3: They sanctioned slavery twice, so maybe there's some overlap there,

579
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: at least in the original Constitution. But they also promise

580
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: to punish innocent children to the third and fourth generation

581
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,959
Speaker 3: if parents are brazen enough to exercise the religious freedom

582
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 3: that is guaranteed in the First Amendment to the US

583
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 3: Constitution right, right, and then the worst one, probably of all,

584
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: is the Tenth Commandment, which condones slave, treats women as chattel,

585
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: and criminalizes thought.

586
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: Texas wants to put these in all school books. What

587
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: version are they trying to put in the school books?

588
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: This version?

589
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 3: Good? Good question. Actually, they have written their own version

590
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: of the Ten Commandment. They have edited God's holy word. Wow,

591
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 3: they get more appropriate. Yeah, okay, yes, yeah. So this

592
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: is actually really fascinating because a lot of those monuments

593
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 3: that you see to the Ten Commandments that are up

594
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: on public spaces too, they also edit out these like

595
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 3: really kind of awful, hateful, terrible versions of or terrible

596
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 3: aspects of the Ten Commandments. So you get things like,

597
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: for idle Lord, your God, I'm a jealous God punishing

598
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 3: children to the third and fourth generation for the equity

599
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: of their parents. Right, That doesn't appear in the monuments

600
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: that you see around the country.

601
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: My kids are Yeah, they just.

602
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 3: Edit it, They just edit it up. They edit out

603
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: a lot of times the mentions of slavery. You shall

604
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your

605
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: neighbor's wife, male or female slave ox donkey or anything

606
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: that belongs to your neighbor. Right, that's that's the tenth

607
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 3: Commandment treats women as property. Okay, slavery you'd think you

608
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: would get that right in the most moral law of

609
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 3: all that slavery is not okay and also criminalizes coveting,

610
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 3: which is I mean, it's the basis of the American capitalists.

611
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 4: As our gasoline.

612
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so again, I think I think it's fair to

613
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: say that, like significant aspects of the Ten Commandments are

614
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: fundamentally un American, and the comparison I think can continue

615
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 3: like that, not just with the ten comments, but even

616
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: more proadly.

617
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it is astounding to me every time how

618
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: much many people who participate in various Christian religions cherry

619
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: pick what they want the Bible and yet treat it

620
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: as though it is this infallible document. But like you

621
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: are still taking things out and terry picking and looking

622
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: at this part butent out over here. It's like, if

623
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: it is this infallible document, then why would you not

624
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: take it at face value for everything that it says

625
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: absolutely literally?

626
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have not very good answer to that.

627
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, can you tell us about this recent movement,

628
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: What are some of the laws, what are the some

629
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: of the dangers. Obviously the Supreme Court is an area

630
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: of major concern. Can you talk to us about this

631
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: movement and who is behind it? Who is driving this?

632
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 3: Well, there really is. There's a well funded and it's

633
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 3: a remarkably powerful network of Christian nationalists, organizations and judges.

634
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: I mean we're talking about if you add up all

635
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 3: of their annual budgets, I mean we're talking about a

636
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 3: billion dollar shadow network that's been working to impose Christian

637
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 3: rationalism on the country. As I documented the new book,

638
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: they've been working to turn the protection of religious freedom

639
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 3: that we all are supposed to enjoy into this weapon

640
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 3: of supremacy and privilege for the few. And I mean

641
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 3: this really is. There are a lot of different groups

642
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: that are involved in this on the legal side in particular.

643
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: Maybe these may be are groups that people haven't heard

644
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: of or maybe are just kind of starting to have

645
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 3: heard be hearing about. Like the Alliance Defending Freedom would

646
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 3: be one. They were behind one of the cases that

647
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 3: ended up being the hobby Lobby case before the Supreme Court.

648
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 3: That was a decade ago now, But they were also

649
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 3: behind the gay wedding cake case out of Colorado, the

650
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: three Zho three Creative, which was the website designer case

651
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: that was not really a case out of Colorado exactly.

652
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 3: They're behind the mif of Pristoe challenges that are in

653
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 3: Texas and working their way up. In fact, Josh Holly's wife,

654
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 3: who is one of the lawyers at ADF, Senator Josh

655
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 3: hollyhy of the Raised Fist and the Fleet Feet is

656
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 3: the too met they're married, and they met in Sean

657
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 3: Roberts's office while they were both clerking for John Roberts. Anyway,

658
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: So Alliance Defending Freedom, American Center for Law, ANDUSTICE back

659
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: at Fund for Religious Liberty, Liberty Council, First Liberty Institute.

660
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 3: It's kind of this Orwellian word salad of groups that

661
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: are really defending and promoting Christian nationalism. And again you

662
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 3: add up their budgets and we're talking about this billion

663
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 3: dollar shadow network and in American CERSISE, I go over

664
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,839
Speaker 3: some of the other ones too and show how they're

665
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 3: tied to the Kochs.

666
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 2: And this is all documented, right, there's plenty of evidence

667
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: that these This is not like a conspiracy theory.

668
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 3: This is like, no, you do start to feel like

669
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: the Charlie Day meme with like the sacredit, yeah, the

670
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 3: arm behind you, like if it starts to feel like that.

671
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: But I mean, it's it's really well documented, especially the

672
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: hostile takeover of the Supreme Court. I mean, it's like

673
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 3: really one of the most well documented things that we

674
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: have out there. And again it's it all exists and

675
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 3: it's written down and people are starting to wake up

676
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 3: to this, right, You're getting all this really awesome reporting

677
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,320
Speaker 3: by Pro Publica about the Supreme Court and some of

678
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: the ethics. I mean, scandals is just like to tame

679
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 3: a word. I don't even like as we're talking about

680
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 3: collusion with these billionaires.

681
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: Really yeah, again, the problem isn't being Christian entities trying

682
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: to control us through a religion and making it seem American.

683
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: It's like some of the richer people who are funding

684
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: this or whatever, Like, what do you think their actual

685
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: goal is?

686
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I think power is the one word answer

687
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 3: to that, which I mean the synonym for that is money.

688
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 3: Money is power. But there's you know, I mean, let's

689
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 3: just take let's just take Leonard Leo for example. So

690
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 3: Leonard Leo is universally recognized as the guy, the man

691
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 3: who orchestrated the hostile takeover of our Supreme Court. And

692
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 3: a former employee described Leonard Leo's mission like, this is

693
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 3: a quote about Leo. He figured out twenty years ago

694
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 3: that conservatives had lost the culture war, abortion, gay rights, contraception.

695
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 3: Conservatives didn't have a chance if public opinion prevailed, so

696
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 3: they needed to stack the courts. Okay, So that's what

697
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 3: they did. And this is an inherently anti democratic goal. Right,

698
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: they're admitting that their goal is to undermine democracy. Right,

699
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,719
Speaker 3: if they don't stack the courts, the majority is going

700
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 3: to rule. Right, democracy is going to work. How terrible

701
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 3: is that? It goes back I think to the overall

702
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 3: question that I really struggled with when I was writing

703
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 3: an American Crusade was why are we seeing them turn to

704
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism? Why are we seeing them orchestrating this crusade

705
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 3: to weaponize religious freedom? And really the why is rising

706
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 3: equality and their waning cultural supremacy. Right, that their ideas

707
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 3: are fundamentally unpopular, Right, that people do, and this is

708
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 3: this is exactly what Leonard Leo's employee is talking about.

709
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,760
Speaker 2: Right, Conservatives, Leo is really not Shelver Dalen.

710
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean he ran the Federalist Society for a

711
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: long time, and he's run this sort of network of

712
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 3: organizations related to the courts, like the Judicial Crisis Network,

713
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 3: and he overall hit the groups that he controlled, spent

714
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: five hundred and forty million dollars five hundred and forty

715
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 3: half a billion dollars packing the court from twenty fourteen

716
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 3: to twenty twenty. Wow. And just to point out the obvious,

717
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 3: you don't spend that kind of money to buy an

718
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: impartial court, right like you, They bought a court. And

719
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 3: Leo's job was during that time he was the monitor

720
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 3: of the judicial nominees' quote, ideological purity. So he was

721
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 3: meant to ensure that there were not as there had

722
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 3: been in the past with Sandra Day O'Connor and a

723
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: few of the other nominees slippage. So they would nominate

724
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: these conservatives, would nominate judges that they thought would be conservative,

725
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden, the more they sat

726
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 3: on the bench and they decided cases based on the law,

727
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 3: the more liberal they became. Shocking. So he was meant

728
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: to make sure that that wouldn't happen. He is responsible

729
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 3: for the nomination of John Robert Sam Alito, Neil Gorsitch,

730
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett. That's five members of

731
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. Justice Thomas is an old friend of his.

732
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 3: All six of those are or were members of the

733
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 3: Federalist Society, which again is one of Leo's groups. There's

734
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 3: actually recent video, maybe a year old now, maybe a

735
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 3: little older, of Justice Thomas joking that Leonard Leo's the

736
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: third most powerful man in America. And so that's six

737
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 3: votes on the Supreme Court, and Leo personally chose five

738
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 3: of them for their ideology.

739
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 2: I think there are probably a lot of listeners who

740
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: aren't super up on politics. So can you just kind

741
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 2: of brief overview of some of the choices that the

742
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: Supreme Court has been making that are fundamentally Christian rationalists?

743
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think one of the big ones that everybody

744
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: knows about that they may not connect is overturning Roe

745
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 3: versus Way jobs decision is I mean, that is fundamentally

746
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 3: a Christian nationalist opinion. It begins and ends with religion.

747
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 3: The first and last paragraph of Alito's opinion, he calls

748
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 3: it morality, but he's talking about his religion. In twenty twelve,

749
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court said that religious organizations can legally discriminate

750
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 3: when hiring clergy, and then it weaponized that against employees

751
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: who had no religious duties in the name of religious freedom.

752
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 3: In twenty fourteen, it said that religious freedom can override

753
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 3: the rights of other citizens, and then it upheld Christian

754
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: only prayers that the town of Greece imposed on its citizens.

755
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, the Court forced taxpayers to fund a

756
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 3: Lutheran children's ministry and church, again under the name of

757
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,360
Speaker 3: religious freedom. In twenty eighteen, it rediscovered this really potent

758
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: argument hostility towards religion, and it used that argument to

759
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: let a business owner violate the civil rights laws and

760
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 3: discriminate against protected classes of people. That is the gay

761
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 3: wedding CA case out of Colorado. And that same year

762
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: after bemoaned this hostility towards Christians. In that case, it

763
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: upheld Donald Trump's Muslim ban. The ban was when he

764
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 3: banned immigration from that list of Muslim majority countries at

765
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 3: the very beginning of his presidency, and that went through

766
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 3: several different iterations, but he did it because of anti

767
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 3: Muslim bias. So if anti religious bias tainted, as the

768
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 3: Supreme Court argued government action. It should have done it

769
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 3: for both the gay wedding cake case and that Muslim ban,

770
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: but they only applied it to the anti Christian bias,

771
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 3: not the anti Muslim bias, which shows how nonsense it

772
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 3: is in terms.

773
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: Of the cake thing. Can you really simply lay out

774
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: why that's a slippery slope denying a cake, denying someone

775
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: to service because they are gay, and in your religion

776
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: you think that gayness is wrong? Why is that dangerous?

777
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 3: Yeah? So, I mean this is arguably, I think one

778
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 3: of the cases that people really failed to grasp, and

779
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 3: it's not through any fault of their own. And in fact,

780
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 3: it's the reason that I went, as I mentioned at

781
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: the beginning, I went from litigating these cases in court

782
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 3: to really litigating these cases in the public sphere. It

783
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 3: was partly because of this gay wedding case case. I

784
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: I promise you, whatever you think you know about this case,

785
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 3: you don't know it. There's so much more to the

786
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: story here, and that is because the group involved in

787
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 3: this case, the Alliance Defending Freedom, pumped millions of dollars

788
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 3: into messaging about this case, into spinning a narrative fundamentally

789
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: what this case was about. It was about a business,

790
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 3: a limited liability company that discriminated against a gay couple

791
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 3: in violation of a state civil rights law. These cases

792
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 3: happen all of the time. They're very easy to resolve.

793
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 3: This is not a hard question. Your religion is not

794
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 3: a license to violate somebody else's rights ever, and that

795
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 3: is the way it has been in our country for

796
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 3: a long time. And this is what American Crusade, my

797
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: new book, is about, because that is what the Supreme

798
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 3: Court is changing, and that is what these groups like

799
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 3: a Lines Defending Freedom are out to change. They're changing

800
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: that shield that religious freedom has always been into a

801
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 3: whip so that people can impose their religion on others. Right,

802
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 3: So business discriminated against the couple, a gay couple, in

803
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: violation of their civil rights. And by the end of

804
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 3: that case, by the time it got to the Supreme Court, instead,

805
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: the narrative had completely changed and it was about the

806
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: big bad government trying to force a poor, persecuted Christian

807
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 3: artist to violate his personal religious beliefs. And that's just

808
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:51,400
Speaker 3: that's simply not what happened in the case. I promise

809
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 3: you whatever you think you know about this case, if

810
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 3: you are listening to it, there's so much more to

811
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: the story. And this is probably one of the chapters

812
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 3: that I'm most proud of an American crusade because reviewed

813
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 3: a lot of the folks that were involved in this case,

814
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 3: including the couple, including some of the members of the

815
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 3: Colorado Civil Rights Commission that initially decided this case and

816
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 3: that were actually demonized by the Supreme Court and labeled

817
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: as anti religious bigots at the Supreme Court. But it

818
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 3: is it is the case that really changed changed my

819
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 3: career and essentially what led me to right American Crisis.

820
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:30,760
Speaker 6: Oh a cake, that's so incredible that if you believe

821
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 6: that you can discriminate against a gay couple because you're

822
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 6: Christian and you think gayness goes against your religion, Well,

823
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,280
Speaker 6: doesn't atheism also go against your religion?

824
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 4: Now where does it end?

825
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 2: Doesn't Islam also go against your religion? I mean, what

826
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: if your religion believes that black people should still be slaves,

827
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: then you can justify anything that goes against something that

828
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 2: you personally believe. And in that point, you are just

829
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 2: straight up discriminating, right absolutely.

830
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 3: And that's that's precisely why we have civil rights laws

831
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 3: in the first place. You know, every Martin Luther King day,

832
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 3: I go back and I reread his letter from the

833
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: Birmingham jail. And in that letter he talks about why

834
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 3: we have these civil rights laws in the first place.

835
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: He talks about having to sleep in the uncomfortable corners

836
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: of his car because no motel will accept him. He

837
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 3: talks about seeing those signs that read white and colored.

838
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: In a really really moving part, he talks about having

839
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 3: to explain to his six year old daughter that she

840
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: can't go to FunTown, which is the public amusement park,

841
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 3: that it was advertised that she just on four on TV.

842
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:38,640
Speaker 3: That is so unfair because the FunTown is closed to

843
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: colored children. And he talks about seeing not just the

844
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,280
Speaker 3: tears welling up in her eyes, but the ominous clouds

845
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 3: of inferiority beginning to form in her mental sky. And

846
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: it's that dignitary harm that you can't quantify, but that

847
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,800
Speaker 3: these laws really protect against them. Like a lot of

848
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:01,359
Speaker 3: people say, just go somewhere else, and that doesn't one

849
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: that doesn't stop the harm, that doesn't stop those clouds

850
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 3: of mental feriority from forming people's mental skies. But if

851
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 3: you allow that kind of discrimination, you get entire swaths

852
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 3: of the country where there is no somewhere else to go.

853
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 3: And in fact, during Jim Crow in times like that,

854
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: the KKK would not allow other businesses to serve customers. Right,

855
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 3: there was no other place to go, and if there was,

856
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 3: the KKK went and fire bombed it for instance. Right.

857
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: So it's not as simple as people realize. And oftentimes

858
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 3: the opposition to these cases, these kind of cases which

859
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: involve civil basic civil rights laws, boil down to people

860
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: not wanting those civil rights laws to exist in the

861
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 3: first place.

862
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: What's the worst case scenario if this isn't battled against,

863
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: if this goes unchecked like the dystopian version of Christian

864
00:45:59,080 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: national Yeah.

865
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 3: I mean the worst case scenario is I mean, this

866
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 3: is what Margaret Atwood is writing about in Handmaid's Tale,

867
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 3: And I mean it's the Court has done like a

868
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 3: remarkable job of shoving us down the road towards Gilead

869
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: in the last two years. It is that country where

870
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,439
Speaker 3: we don't have a rule of law, I mean, and

871
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: I mean that fundamentally, where the law only protects those

872
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 3: chosen few, but they're not bound by it. And everybody

873
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,600
Speaker 3: else is bound by that law, required to follow it,

874
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 3: but they're not protected by it in any way, shape

875
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 3: or form. And a lot of the decisions coming out

876
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: of the Supreme Court lately, and really the goals of

877
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism are to drag us down that path.

878
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 2: Obviously, there's a big backlash right now to a lot

879
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: of cultural progress trans people a lot more visible. There's

880
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: a big backlash against that culturally, there's like this war

881
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: going on. But is there also an economic or financial

882
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: incentive in terms of like bolstering this movement? What is

883
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: the financial motivation there?

884
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you go back, I mean, let's

885
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 3: take what we were talking about with the nineteen fifties, right,

886
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 3: You saw big business allying with conservative religion, putting money

887
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 3: behind a literal marketing campaign for conservative religion to bring

888
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: people into the camp of big business and anti regulation

889
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 3: to increase the profit margin.

890
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 1: And is this where churches became tax free just a

891
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,720
Speaker 1: little interjection question.

892
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,640
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, that is like a super fascinating story

893
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: and also ties in with choosing abortion as the wedge

894
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 3: issue and has like fascinating ties to segregation in Bob

895
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 3: Jones University. I have a whole chapter on that in

896
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 3: American Crusade. It's we can do a whole dive on

897
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 3: that episode. It's like super super fascinating. Okay, to your

898
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 3: larger point, like the crusade that we're this Christian nationalism

899
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 3: that we're seeing, that the push to weaponize religious freedom,

900
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 3: it is largely a backlash against equality realized. So even

901
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 3: if there's a profit motive underlying it or selling it

902
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: down the road, it still that audience still has to

903
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 3: receive it in a way that makes them believe it

904
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 3: or at least get behind it actively. And that is

905
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: equality being realized. And what I mean that is conservative

906
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 3: white Christian Americans' status as the dominant group in this

907
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: society is threatened. It has been for some time. Right.

908
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: They are losing the quote unquote culture wars, which I

909
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 3: think is kind of a silly phrase that often masks

910
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 3: attacks on human rights. They're been knighted. Ideas and their

911
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: hate filled ideology are unpopular. They are losing the privilege

912
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 3: and the deference which they believe they are due. So

913
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 3: the why is because every day we are closer to

914
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: racial and gender and LGBTQ equality, and because they are

915
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 3: are so used to seeing a narrow world which reflects

916
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 3: only their straight, white, conservative Christian patriarchy, that the existence,

917
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 3: let alone the equality of others threatens them.

918
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,240
Speaker 2: The thing that I find interesting about the abortion piece

919
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 2: of it is that there was sort of this hunt

920
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,279
Speaker 2: for the correct issue that people would be able to

921
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 2: get behind. They like found the moment people started to

922
00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:25,799
Speaker 2: get freaked out because women were deciding not to have

923
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 2: kids and leaving the home, and that like scared people.

924
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 2: So these sort of people came together and like latched

925
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 2: onto that issue. I guess what I'm wondering is like

926
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: beyond the just like the fear itself, the capitalizing on

927
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 2: the fear for financial incentives, is that something we're seeing.

928
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think it's something we're seeing. So Donald

929
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 3: Trump was elected because of Christian nationalism. Best indicator of

930
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: a Trump voter in the twenty sixteen election was thinking

931
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 3: that the United States was founded as a Christian nation.

932
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 3: I was the best indicator.

933
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 2: That you were so crazy because I cannot think of

934
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: a less Christian guy in everything.

935
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 3: So he think of his accomplishments, think of what he

936
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: actually did as president. It's basically like two things he

937
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: basically did the Supreme Court. He gave the Supreme Court,

938
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: he captured the Supreme Court to Leonard Leo and the

939
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 3: conservatives and the evangelicals, and that is doing like tremendous

940
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 3: massive damage. But the other big thing that he did

941
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 3: was enormous huge tax cuts. I mean, just just using

942
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 3: the government to reward millionaires and billionaires and big business.

943
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 3: That's essentially the only two things that he was really

944
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 3: able to accomplish. Can you think of other things? I mean, like,

945
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 3: like looking back, that really is it? So? I mean

946
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 3: I think there's certainly I think there's certainly an aspect.

947
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 2: Of deregulated environmental protections.

948
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 3: Going to the same thing, right, yeah, yeah, I mean

949
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 3: that's like you can tie it direct draw direct line

950
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 3: from that through back to the anti New Deal. Anti

951
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,879
Speaker 3: regulation is like.

952
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: Freedom of speech. I said something about Hunter Biden's laptop.

953
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: It got taken off Twitter. You know, we need some

954
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: new system. There needs to be some third party or something.

955
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, so I think Twitter is an example

956
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 3: of that, right, Like Twitter is it is not a

957
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 3: bastion of free speech. I don't know why anybody would

958
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 3: think it is. It's a billion dollar company. Like if

959
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,879
Speaker 3: you are relying on a company to protect your free

960
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,240
Speaker 3: speech and the company's incentive is pure profit. Like that

961
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 3: that's on us, And I think part of the problem

962
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 3: is that there is there's a disconnect between our understanding

963
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 3: of our rights and our understanding of what our American values.

964
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 3: Free speech is both a constitutional right and then American

965
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 3: value free speech as a constitutional right protects you from

966
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 3: government censorship and not in every case right Like there

967
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: are the things you cannot say and get away with it.

968
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,880
Speaker 3: You can't threaten somebody else's life credibly and claim free speech.

969
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 3: That's not a right that you have. That is not

970
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:01,479
Speaker 3: an absolute right. But free speech is also an American value,

971
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 3: But there's no reason that a company has to adhere

972
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 3: to that American value. And the idea that that a

973
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 3: profit motivated entity is going to choose free speech over

974
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 3: profit is right, I mean fill in the blank.

975
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: So what would you say to the average Christian or

976
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: non Christian. I'm very much not a Christian, but I

977
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: have many loved ones who are who's listening and they're like, well,

978
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,479
Speaker 2: what does this all amount to? What does this mean?

979
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 2: What am I supposed to do about it? How does

980
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: it affect me?

981
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,879
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the number one thing I would say

982
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 3: is that, you know, I'm an atheist, and I'm an

983
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 3: out atheist, and then almost like in some ways, like

984
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 3: almost a professional atheist. But I've done a lot of

985
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 3: work with Christians over the last few years, especially fighting

986
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism, and that's.

987
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 2: Fighting Christian nationalism.

988
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. My friend Chrissy Stripp put it nicely. She

989
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 3: said that shared values matter more than shared beliefs. Yeah,

990
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 3: and I really agree with that. And you know I

991
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: said this earlier, but would I would rather have a

992
00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 3: drink in a chat and split some guacamole with a

993
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,000
Speaker 3: group of Christians who value anti racism and social justice

994
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 3: than with a group of anti equality atheists. There aren't

995
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,280
Speaker 3: that many of those, but there are a very loud

996
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 3: group of them. There are few, and they're very, very loud.

997
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 3: And I think that shared values matter far more when

998
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 3: we as a nation face an existential threat like white

999
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism. So my dream would be to live in

1000
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 3: a country where the separation of church and state is

1001
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 3: valued by everyone, where we all understand that true religious

1002
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 3: freedom can only exist with a secular government. When we

1003
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,560
Speaker 3: get that there is no freedom of religion without a

1004
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 3: government that's free from religion. I want to live in

1005
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: a country where my nonprofit Americans United for Separation of

1006
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 3: Church and State is unnecessary want to get I want

1007
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 3: to live in a country where I can get together

1008
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 3: with people who don't believe like me and have fascinating,

1009
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 3: deep conversations about God and the nature of the universe

1010
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 3: and why we're all here and disagree about those things.

1011
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 3: But right now, at this moment, we are fighting a

1012
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 3: movement that would, if given the power, make those conversations impossible,

1013
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 3: that would privilege white conservative Christians above everybody else, that

1014
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 3: would create in America two classes. So our country is

1015
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 3: on fire. Our democracy isn't slipping away, it is being stolen.

1016
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 3: I have a lot of hope, actually, I mean, and

1017
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: it's especially true that those of us who value and

1018
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 3: what share values like equality and justice and truth and fairness,

1019
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 3: we have to come together to stop h One of

1020
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: the things that we say in Americans United is we

1021
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: bring people of all religions and none to fight against

1022
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: this in the courts, in the legislatures, and in the

1023
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 3: public sphere. And that means fighting for in America where

1024
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 3: the separation of church and state is not just absolute

1025
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 3: but it is valued and and yes I do have hope.

1026
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: I can get on that soap box if you if

1027
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 3: you want me to, and maybe that's a good way

1028
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 3: to end it. But I actually do have a tremendous

1029
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 3: amount of hope for the future.

1030
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: I have seen pastors tweeting about the importance of separation

1031
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,280
Speaker 2: of church and state. This is not like a Christian

1032
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: wide belief. Also, nothing is a Christian wide belief. Because yes,

1033
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: but yeah, I mean, I'm glad to hear you have hope.

1034
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: We say a little more about it so we feel

1035
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,400
Speaker 2: the existential dread. I mean, it was hard not to,

1036
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 2: just like you know, when Roe v. Wade was overturned,

1037
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: there was a real morning period. And the thing that

1038
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: scares me is that I do think we sort of

1039
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,799
Speaker 2: adjust to these new and darker realities every time they

1040
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 2: happen until we look around and we're like, oh fuck,

1041
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 2: we are in a version of Handmaid's Tale, even if

1042
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 2: it's not like literally having a handmaid in our home. Yet,

1043
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,080
Speaker 2: like there is a version of this that feels like

1044
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: it can happen if this continues to go in this direction.

1045
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I get that feeling. You know,

1046
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 3: this is my career. I've been on the front lines

1047
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 3: fighting this for so long. But the well spring of

1048
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 3: my hope is it's this basic, definitional truth. Their power

1049
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 3: hungry aggression is growing our movement. Their wins in the

1050
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: abortion case, in that case where the coach, the football

1051
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,279
Speaker 3: coach was imposing his prayer on other people's kids, right

1052
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,760
Speaker 3: in the three ZHO three creative case, right, their wins

1053
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 3: swell our ranks. They're creating a feedback with like, okay,

1054
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 3: go back, remember the why. The whole reason for this

1055
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 3: rising Christian nationalism in the first place is their loss

1056
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 3: of status and the changing demographics. And again, white Christian

1057
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 3: nationalists are working to privilege the chosen few. Every legislative

1058
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,800
Speaker 3: and legal victory that they not alienates more people, wakes

1059
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 3: more people up to the danger, and drives more people

1060
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 3: away from their movement. Their power hungry aggression is growing

1061
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 3: our movement.

1062
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 2: What's ironic to me is that, like so much of

1063
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: this is caused by marketing, and the way to win,

1064
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 2: it seems, is also marketing, which is funny. Yeah, and

1065
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 2: so that's why people like you are really important, because

1066
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:07,360
Speaker 2: I do think you know, people can get really in

1067
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 2: the weeds on the law and what it means and

1068
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 2: become you know, sort of victim to the marketing. And

1069
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 2: we do need communicators describing these issues in a way

1070
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 2: that is easy to understand. And unfortunately, marketing matters anytime

1071
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: you want to make any change.

1072
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I often think a lot of what I'm doing

1073
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 3: is it's information warfare, really and it's it's awful to

1074
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 3: think about that, but that, I mean, that is especially

1075
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 3: when you look at what the other side does in

1076
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 3: the way they weaponize i mean, alternative facts. Is a

1077
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 3: great example. The case of the praying coach, Like the

1078
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 3: lower courts warned that they were spinning out this Deceitulnaris.

1079
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 4: The praying coaches.

1080
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 1: The coach prayed before a game and he got fired

1081
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 1: and then he said, I was praying as an individual,

1082
00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: not as an employee, correct kind of.

1083
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 3: This is a coach at a public school who was

1084
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: after the games praying with other people's kids at the

1085
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 3: fifty yard line, imposing his prayer on those kids. Those kids,

1086
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 3: according to the record, the court record, felt coerce to

1087
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 3: pray with him. They felt like if they didn't pray,

1088
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 3: they weren't going to be able to play. And this

1089
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 3: is the public yeah, exactly, and that the school district

1090
00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 3: was like, look, man, you can do this if you want.

1091
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 3: They're like, just don't do it so that the kids

1092
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: feel pressured. Just like, don't do it in a way

1093
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 3: that honors everybody's religious freedom and that protects the religious

1094
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 3: freedom of the students who are in your charge, instead

1095
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,520
Speaker 3: of imposing and violating their religious freedom. They're like, we'll

1096
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 3: help you do it. They're like, well, keep the field

1097
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,919
Speaker 3: open for you. You can do it before the games,

1098
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: you can do it after the games. Like, just don't

1099
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 3: do it in a way that violates other people's rights

1100
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 3: while you're acting as a member of the government. There's

1101
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 3: photos of him with surrounded by kids holding up helmets praying,

1102
00:58:52,040 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 3: and the other side said that he was offering personal,

1103
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 3: private prayers after the game, which there's literally photographic evidence

1104
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 3: to show that this is not true. And the lower

1105
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 3: courts warned that the First Liberty Institute, which was the group,

1106
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 3: was spinning a quote deceitful narrative about the case. I mean,

1107
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 3: I've literally never seen a judge write that in an

1108
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 3: opinion about something. That a lawyer argued that they were

1109
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 3: spinning a deceitful narrative I mean, I.

1110
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: Got the wrong story because the story I got was

1111
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 1: just like, oh, okay, that makes sense.

1112
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's.

1113
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 3: Marketing maybe, yeah, exactly, yeah exactly. But you know, I mean,

1114
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 3: just I mean one more thing on hope too, because

1115
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 3: I do think it's crucial because marketing, right, they're crusading

1116
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 3: against our side, because we are working. We're working to

1117
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 3: meet those unmet promises in the American Declaration of Independence

1118
00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 3: and the US Constitution, the self evident truth that all

1119
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 3: are equal, that we the people means all of the people.

1120
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 3: And of course previous generations have failed to realize those

1121
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 3: aspirations right. They've left it to their children to contend

1122
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 3: with huge and tragedies and atrocities like slavery and segregation

1123
01:00:04,160 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 3: and the subjugation of women and discrimination against LGBTQ people

1124
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 3: and now the climate crisis. But as we march toward

1125
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 3: progress and toward those that kind of progress, Christian nationalists

1126
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 3: are fighting ever harder against it, and they will not

1127
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 3: go gently. They will not They are going to rage

1128
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 3: against the dying of their privilege. But in the end,

1129
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 3: we really are going to win. And that's because they

1130
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 3: fight only for themselves and where they are selfish, We

1131
01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 3: can be selfless. They want supremacy, We one equality. And

1132
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 3: that is why in the end we will triumph, not

1133
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 3: because our principle is inherently better than theirs, though it

1134
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 3: definitely is, but because the math is on our side,

1135
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 3: because we have the numbers, and that is what they

1136
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 3: are fighting. That is what they are raging against math.

1137
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,959
Speaker 3: And you can fight city Hall, but you can't fight

1138
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 3: that math. So I really really do have hope. And

1139
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 3: this is the battle that I fight every single day

1140
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 3: at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. And

1141
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 3: your books are called the Founding Myth Why Christian nationalism

1142
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 3: is on a American That's the first one and the

1143
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 3: second one, the most recent one is American Crusade. How

1144
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 3: the Supreme Court is weaponizing religious freedom?

1145
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: And where can people find you? On social media and beyond.

1146
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 3: I'm Andrew L. Seidel on all of the things. I'm

1147
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 3: on TikTok to these days, which is super fun.

1148
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 4: Oh it's so great.

1149
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. I do some dances every now and then too.

1150
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 2: Because God, you couldn't have shocked to me more.

1151
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 3: At Americans Unit, we filed this lawsuit in Missouri. Basically

1152
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 3: they were admitting that they were using their power to

1153
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,120
Speaker 3: impose their personal religion on everybody in Missouri, which is

1154
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 3: what we fight against Americans Unit for Separation of Church

1155
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 3: and State. And so when we filed lawsuit against that

1156
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 3: that bill, I did a little dance out of the elevator,

1157
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 3: one of the just trendy things, and that was that's

1158
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 3: my most popular view.

1159
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: We will be looking at media, and so will everyone

1160
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: else listening, never mind the information, look at dan. Yes.

1161
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: In conclusion, the separation of church and state is fundamentally

1162
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: an American idea and an American ideal that we should

1163
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 2: all be aspiring to get back to. Thank you so

1164
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: much for being with us.

1165
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1166
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,760
Speaker 2: I can't wait to read your books. You are just

1167
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: like a like a walking encyclopedia of information. And I wish,

1168
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 2: I like, I need to subscribe to your YouTube so

1169
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 2: I can get it slowly meted out over.

1170
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 4: Time, and I will be watching the TikTok dances.

1171
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, rust a shirt.

1172
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, okay, all right, yes, I'll not ask for

1173
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 3: reviews on those but exist.

1174
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: And that concludes our interview. So I'm just gonna do

1175
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: a little addendum here because there was a question I

1176
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: was like trying to get at. There's a point I

1177
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 2: was trying to get at in this interview that I

1178
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 2: was not able to articulate very well, which was basically like,

1179
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 2: who is benefiting economically financially from this? Because usually when

1180
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,560
Speaker 2: you see these like big political movements being organ frustrated

1181
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:04,600
Speaker 2: by people who have you know, special and jurist groups

1182
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 2: or whatever, someone is making a fuck ton of money

1183
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 2: off of it. It's not generally from what I see

1184
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 2: and what I believe, just like a strictly, you know,

1185
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 2: ideologically driven thing, there's usually money. So Leonard Leo, who

1186
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 2: we talk about in this episode, there's been a lot

1187
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 2: of news about him lately, actually, and I'm just going

1188
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 2: to quote a couple of political articles just to give

1189
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 2: you guys a sense of what something that I think

1190
01:03:29,360 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 2: is really interesting. Leonard Leo, who helped to choose judicial

1191
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:37,439
Speaker 2: nominees for former President Donald Trump, obtain a historic one

1192
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: point six billion dollar gift for his conservative legal network

1193
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 2: via introduction through the Federalist Society, whose tax status forbids

1194
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 2: political activism. Here's one from another one. Meanwhile, Leo's network

1195
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 2: of nonprofits, whose annual donations have skyrocketed into the hundreds

1196
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 2: of millions of dollars is the subject of an investigation

1197
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: by the Washington DC Attorney General. The probe followed a

1198
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 2: political report in March that raised questions about whether Leo's

1199
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 2: groups were enriching him and his friends by hiring their

1200
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 2: businesses and donating to their nonprofit groups. My only point

1201
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 2: here is that people are are profiting off of influencing politics.

1202
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 2: It's not just like there is usually greed at play.

1203
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 2: It's not just a moral issue, and that is that's

1204
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:23,640
Speaker 2: something we can talk about more in the future. But

1205
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 2: that's what I was getting at, and that is I

1206
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 2: just wanted to throw that in there. Thoughts totally, and

1207
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 2: the thoughts are totally.

1208
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 4: It's just so it's also complicated, But I agree.

1209
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 2: I just don't think there should be that kind of

1210
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 2: money in politics. I think it's it contributes to like

1211
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 2: all of these highly unethical decisions. But that's a story

1212
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 2: for another day, another time, another place, another guest, another person,

1213
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 2: another week.

1214
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: Speaking of weeks, We're so grateful you joined us again

1215
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: this week and we can't wait to see you again.

1216
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,320
Speaker 1: And as always, remember to follow your gut, watch out

1217
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: for red flags, and never ever.

1218
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:18,600
Speaker 2: Trust me bye trust me as produced by Kirsten Woodward,

1219
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 2: Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.

1220
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 4: The special thanks to Stacy Para.

1221
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1222
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1223
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1224
01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1225
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,680
Speaker 2: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1226
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:39,960
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1227
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1228
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.