Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to Desperately Devoted, the Ultimate Desperate Housewives rewatch,
Speaker 1: hosted by me, Terry Hatcher, my on screen daughter Andrea Bowen,
Speaker 1: and my real life daughter Emerson Tanna.
Speaker 2: Well, Hi, welcome back here.
Speaker 3: We are discussing episode eight, Guilty, and I just have
Speaker 3: to say Fred Gerber directed the shit out of this
Speaker 3: episode well.
Speaker 4: And maybe no surprise then.
Speaker 5: According to Wikipedia, this was our highest rated episode of
Speaker 5: this season thus far.
Speaker 3: It was my highest rated episode in my heart thus far.
Speaker 6: Well, I wonder if that's because of the insanely well edited,
Speaker 6: exciting end of the episode, which was where we were
Speaker 6: cutting back and forth between Missus Hooper being killed with
Speaker 6: the blender that she stole from Mary Alice by Paul
Speaker 6: and Mike and Susan having sex for the first time.
Speaker 6: I mean, that was hot, hot, hot, But I don't know.
Speaker 6: There were a lot of big things that happened in
Speaker 6: this episode, and there were big themes like shame and
Speaker 6: guilt and religion, and I feel like the question of
Speaker 6: you know, does being happy make you selfish? Also, I
Speaker 6: think people are looking at like your gut instinct, does
Speaker 6: it lead you wrong or right?
Speaker 4: So what stood out to you guys, where should we start?
Speaker 4: I love just to dive right in.
Speaker 5: I also love the general theme of this episode. We
Speaker 5: have so many characters turning to religion specifically in this episode,
Speaker 5: and I was thinking about that a lot, and I
Speaker 5: was wondering, like, I think it's human nature to sort
Speaker 5: of crave a blueprint in life, you know, we want
Speaker 5: to be guided, We want someone to answer these big questions,
Speaker 5: like Gabrielle turning to Father Crowley kind of trying to
Speaker 5: decipher what is right and wrong. And Susan and Mike
Speaker 5: in this episode with trust issues coming up, you know,
Speaker 5: with su and kind of snooping a little bit in
Speaker 5: Mike's house and kind of what does it? Someone tell
Speaker 5: me how and when I can really start to trust someone.
Speaker 3: Also have Bri and Rex really grappling with Andrew's lack
Speaker 3: of guilt over the car crash and the fact that
Speaker 3: he's put Wanita into a coma and kind of saying like,
Speaker 3: how have we raised a right sun or how have
Speaker 3: we raised our son? Have we done something wrong? I
Speaker 3: also love that the opening, the very opening. Mary Alice
Speaker 3: says in the beginning of this episode, there is a
Speaker 3: widely read book that tells us everyone is a sinner,
Speaker 3: and we see that Bible that Brie has. And I
Speaker 3: don't think, you know, this show being an American TV
Speaker 3: show airing in America, I do not think that it
Speaker 3: is a coincidence that the highest rated episode started with
Speaker 3: a Bible and ended with sex and murder. That really
Speaker 3: feels like it pretty perfectly encapsulates our country, for better
Speaker 3: or for worse.
Speaker 4: I don't know what else is there to cover. Those
Speaker 4: are the things.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love that opening scene, and I.
Speaker 4: Also loved Okay.
Speaker 6: So it opens with the the Brie and Rex and
Speaker 6: the family discussing what are we going to do about
Speaker 6: the fact that Andrew, uh, you know, we hit and
Speaker 6: possibly killed this woman. And they're all sort of hemming
Speaker 6: and hanging about whose fault it is and who has
Speaker 6: the better idea, and finally Brie just comes up and
Speaker 6: she's the one with the solution. She's We're going to
Speaker 6: get rid of the car. This is how we're going
Speaker 6: to do it. Bum bum bum bump bum. And it
Speaker 6: actually reminded me Reese Witherspoon. I saw her like doing
Speaker 6: a lecture at sort of a women's event, and she
Speaker 6: was talking about how sometimes in movies the dialogue for
Speaker 6: women is so silly, Like they'll be a scenario where
Speaker 6: something goes wrong and the woman's dialogue will be like
Speaker 6: what should we do? What do you think we should do?
Speaker 6: Like the woman never has the solution. And Reese Witherspoon's
Speaker 6: at this event and she says to the audience, like,
Speaker 6: when have you ever seen a woman in an actual
Speaker 6: drama not be the person who knows what to do?
Speaker 2: Like the women are always.
Speaker 6: The people that stand up and like have a plan
Speaker 6: and get it done and never stop and go go,
Speaker 6: go go. I mean I feel like that in my life,
Speaker 6: Like I'm I'm never looking to anyone to help me
Speaker 6: solve the problem, maybe to my own detriment, But that
Speaker 6: kind of cracked me up that that Bree was the
Speaker 6: one that was like, of course, you know it's going
Speaker 6: to be the woman that's going to solve this, Smara.
Speaker 3: Of course, the solution will be to drive the car
Speaker 3: to a shady neighborhood and leave the keys in it.
Speaker 3: Turning our back to the morally reprehensible implications if someone
Speaker 3: steals this car and then ends up getting framed for
Speaker 3: murder potential when Needa dies in her coma, Yeah, I think,
Speaker 3: of course Brie is the one who had the plan.
Speaker 3: And I think it's interesting, Mom that you say that
Speaker 3: you always have a plan and that you never ask
Speaker 3: for help, because I think that is another big theme
Speaker 3: in this episode a lot of different characters. I'm specifically
Speaker 3: thinking about Lynette as her add medication addiction that she
Speaker 3: really spirals out of her control, her kind of inability,
Speaker 3: and then ultimate breakdown fueled by her vision of Mary
Speaker 3: Mary Alice in such a kind of haunting and beautiful
Speaker 3: and incredibly poetic way, Mary Alice coming to her in
Speaker 3: this vision and handing her the gun that she used
Speaker 3: in the pilot episode through the windows, this kind of
Speaker 3: last I guess to stick with our religion metaphor hail
Speaker 3: Mary for what to do to get out of this
Speaker 3: spiral that Lynette can't imagine how to get out of.
Speaker 3: And ultimately, of course it is when she realizes that
Speaker 3: she has to be honest with her friends and ask
Speaker 3: for her.
Speaker 5: We just have to linger on this scene because you know,
Speaker 5: as as we like to point out, this was two
Speaker 5: thousand and four Network television. What a brave and bold
Speaker 5: scene to show Lynette completely full crash out mode standing
Speaker 5: in the kitchen. She's sleep dep you know, completely sleep deprived.
Speaker 5: She's now maybe she's taken something. She went to the
Speaker 5: acupuncturist who gave her these you know, holistic, mushroomy things.
Speaker 5: She's taken that, which is aiding in this hallucination state
Speaker 5: that she's in. But she is completely at her wits end,
Speaker 5: totally falling apart. And it's overlaid with that amazing music,
Speaker 5: which I know was just like cinematic brilliance to.
Speaker 2: Have Len Groovy, so ivon Ellen.
Speaker 4: Groovy playing over that.
Speaker 5: Right, The dichotomy of those two things just making this
Speaker 5: this moment of TV feel like a pause worthy moment.
Speaker 5: I just I just really I think it's the it's
Speaker 5: maybe my favorite episode of the season.
Speaker 4: So far, that makes sense.
Speaker 6: I mean, that was just a brilliant scene, and I
Speaker 6: loved that Felicity did this little, tiny moment. I'm sure
Speaker 6: she did it on purpose, because that's the kind of
Speaker 6: actor she is. But she was when she was sitting
Speaker 6: at the table initially before she went into what gets
Speaker 6: revealed as a dream, she kind of did this thing
Speaker 6: of like where she puts her head down. So I
Speaker 6: think if you went back and you watched it again,
Speaker 6: you would see like, oh, she's asleep, you know. But
Speaker 6: I think when you watch it for the first time,
Speaker 6: you're a little confused, like is this really happening? Did
Speaker 6: she really throw the peanut butter through the through the
Speaker 6: window and break it like it's It was edited so well.
Speaker 6: This episode was so strongly about guilt and shame that
Speaker 6: I asked chat GPT what the difference between guilt and
Speaker 6: shame was, Do you guys want to hear what?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, GPT told me.
Speaker 3: I will just coveat this though with chat GPT is
Speaker 3: programmed to give you an answer no matter what you
Speaker 3: ask it, so sometimes if you ask chat GPT something,
Speaker 3: it will give you an incorrect answer, as opposed to
Speaker 3: saying I don't know. I'm not saying that this isn't
Speaker 3: the case of guilt or shame, but I was just
Speaker 3: talking about this the other day with a friend and
Speaker 3: I was like, I have to remember that I shouldn't
Speaker 3: always be turning to chat GPT for answers about complex
Speaker 3: questions because sometimes it just makes shit up.
Speaker 6: Wow, I'm not sure this is one of those times,
Speaker 6: but you be judge for yourself. Okay, So what it
Speaker 6: said was it said that guilt was focused on behavior,
Speaker 6: like I did something bad, I lied, and I regret it,
Speaker 6: And guilt tends to motivate a person to have reparations,
Speaker 6: like an apology or making amends. But shame is I
Speaker 6: am bad, and it focuses on self, like I lied
Speaker 6: and I'm a terrible person. And I just thought that
Speaker 6: was fascinating. The difference between owning like this deep seated
Speaker 6: I'm a terrible person as opposed to I did something bad,
Speaker 6: I should fix it. And do you know, I think
Speaker 6: of myself as somebody who.
Speaker 7: I try not to.
Speaker 6: Let guilt drive my life because I do feel in general,
Speaker 6: like guilt is a waste of time, you know, like
Speaker 6: like it's almost you know, you're just ruminating on something,
Speaker 6: but you're and you're punishing yourself, but you're not really
Speaker 6: fixing anything. You're not really solving anything. It just and
Speaker 6: so it feels like a waste of time. But I
Speaker 6: like I was the biggest example I had recently, Like
Speaker 6: in the last three years, I did take care over
Speaker 6: the care of my parents, and initially I was just
Speaker 6: giving them one hundred and fifty percent time everything they
Speaker 6: needed all the time because I felt guilty I felt
Speaker 6: guilty not doing it. I felt guilty saying no. I
Speaker 6: felt like everything was sort of like this could be
Speaker 6: their last Thanksgiving, this could be the last birthday, this
Speaker 6: could be the last day they were alive, like, and
Speaker 6: up against that pressure, I just felt like I could
Speaker 6: never say no because I thought I would feel guilty,
Speaker 6: And ultimately I realized that that was totally not sustainable
Speaker 6: and that I had to come around to giving myself
Speaker 6: some grace of that was silly for me to feel guilty,
Speaker 6: because what I should be feeling is the flip side
Speaker 6: of the positive of like, look at what I am
Speaker 6: able to do for these two people, look at how
Speaker 6: I am able to help. And it's interesting that we
Speaker 6: do kind of get caught up in our shortcomings, which
Speaker 6: I think happens to Len, which I think is what
Speaker 6: leads her down the road of addiction in the first place,
Speaker 6: is that she's not looking at what she has done,
Speaker 6: which is I've given up my job. I'm taking care
Speaker 6: of these four kids and the best way I can.
Speaker 6: You know, She's instead going like, I'm not having the
Speaker 6: perfect dinner, I'm not having the perfect behaved kids. I'm
Speaker 6: not and so that leads her to her addiction problem.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I think it serves in this in this
Speaker 5: episode two as a driver for what it can be
Speaker 5: when you do acknowledge it or when you just hit
Speaker 5: the point where you can no longer hide it. And
Speaker 5: that leads us to this the scene in the park
Speaker 5: with Susan and Brie where Lynnette says, like, why don't
Speaker 5: we tell each other these things?
Speaker 4: You know, which is such a.
Speaker 5: Moving moment for those friendships, but also just as something
Speaker 5: in my life going into you know, motherhood or any
Speaker 5: sort of struggle that we have in life. It's like, gosh,
Speaker 5: when you tap into your community and you.
Speaker 7: And someone says, oh, I've been there.
Speaker 4: Oh what it can make you feel.
Speaker 5: The relief that you're you're not carrying this shame around
Speaker 5: alone is so is so powerful And how it's interesting
Speaker 5: to hear you talk about that Initially a part of
Speaker 5: your taking on this chapter of your life of taking
Speaker 5: care of your parents was maybe driven by guilt, so
Speaker 5: it served as sort of an action item for you
Speaker 5: in a way I feel like, and then it evolved
Speaker 5: into much more. But the idea that shame, I think
Speaker 5: shame is a stealer of action, right, like shame makes
Speaker 5: you just stop in a really serious.
Speaker 6: And certain kind of way and isolate and isolate, and
Speaker 6: then you're just stuck in that place, which is you know,
Speaker 6: for our listeners, like I mean, if you look at
Speaker 6: my Instagram and you look at me just as a
Speaker 6: normal person, I'm always saying out, get out of your house,
Speaker 6: get out into nature, talk to strangers, go be social,
Speaker 6: because all of us do feel shame to one level
Speaker 6: or another for something in our lives, and that shame
Speaker 6: can really keep you closed off, and the lifting of
Speaker 6: that is getting out connecting with other people because you
Speaker 6: are not alone.
Speaker 3: Well, I was going to say, I think guilt, like regret,
Speaker 3: can be like you are saying, Andrea, an action item
Speaker 3: to do something different. I think guilt that we sit
Speaker 3: in turns into shame, which I agree becomes depressive and
Speaker 3: actually inhibits action and can become really dangerous because you
Speaker 3: start to identify with that complex. I think about something
Speaker 3: that my therapist has said in relation to depression. She said,
Speaker 3: you know what, actually it's okay to feel depressed, like
Speaker 3: when you physically think about what it means to be depressed. Okay,
Speaker 3: you were in a setback state where you were slightly
Speaker 3: removed from your life, and that can actually really have
Speaker 3: its advantages. You can see things more clearly, you can
Speaker 3: come up with a plan for how you want to
Speaker 3: move into the future. The place where being depressed becomes
Speaker 3: dangerous is when you start to identify with depression as
Speaker 3: part of your pathology, and then that becomes a complex
Speaker 3: that actually prevents you from taking a new action course
Speaker 3: and moving back out proactively into your life and into
Speaker 3: the world. And so I think it is amazing and
Speaker 3: it's such a relief to see Lynette have this scene
Speaker 3: with Susan and Brie where you feel the tension of
Speaker 3: this secret that she's been keeping and this fact that
Speaker 3: she's been struggling dissipate in the ability to just put
Speaker 3: it into words and share it with other people. And
Speaker 3: I think we can never underestimate the relief you feel
Speaker 3: when you share a burden. And I really like encourage
Speaker 3: all of us to share those things that we might
Speaker 3: feel guilty about before they fester and turn into shame.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, something that I don't think is depressing is
Speaker 6: Susan and Julie and Mike in this episode.
Speaker 3: There's so much fun counterbalancing the more serious themes in
Speaker 3: this episode.
Speaker 6: I think one of my favorite lines I've ever heard,
Speaker 6: and I just I'm just going to keep saying it.
Speaker 6: Andrew Bowen brilliant child actors like that. I'm just gonna
Speaker 6: say it. One of my favorite scenes is so so Sue.
Speaker 6: Susan is packing for this overnight We're going to have
Speaker 6: sex for the first time trip with Mike, and Julie
Speaker 6: is in the bedroom with her, and Julie says, I
Speaker 6: want you to go on you know she wants her
Speaker 6: to go on this date because she says, no man
Speaker 6: has seen you naked in years, and you have to
Speaker 6: get out of the house. And she says, because one
Speaker 6: day I'm going to have a husband of my own
Speaker 6: and I don't want you living with me.
Speaker 2: I have to say I was going to say.
Speaker 3: The other line from this same scene that I loved
Speaker 3: so much is when Julie says, no man has seen
Speaker 3: you naked in yours except your doctor, and then Susan goes, yeah,
Speaker 3: and he retired.
Speaker 5: And I have another favorite line from this scene, which
Speaker 5: justs me so excited that we all loved this scene
Speaker 5: so much, but which is when Susan mentions that she
Speaker 5: just doesn't know enough about Mike and that he could
Speaker 5: be a hit man for the mob, and Julie responds
Speaker 5: with if you really think that, why are you going
Speaker 5: on a trip with him?
Speaker 4: And I was a good point, Julie.
Speaker 6: Good point is sex in a very long time, so
Speaker 6: you know all the reason next well, hit man sex,
Speaker 6: you know.
Speaker 3: I do think the investigating of what are Mike's motives
Speaker 3: we do see Susan snoop around a lot more and
Speaker 3: get into some amazing Susan esque physical comedy, such as
Speaker 3: finding the money and hiding it from the repairman in
Speaker 3: the sink and then falling through the floor of Mike's
Speaker 3: unrepaired bathroom, which is just brilliant. I was laughing out
Speaker 3: loud with your little legs kicking through.
Speaker 7: The flooring, dangling between the levels.
Speaker 3: But it did bring up for me a kind of
Speaker 3: larger question around trust and what does it mean to
Speaker 3: trust the people that you're dating.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes I fall on the side of I
Speaker 2: don't know that.
Speaker 3: I think the assumption needs to be that couples always
Speaker 3: need to tell each other everything.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: Absolute honesty is not always like not I don't equate
Speaker 3: that necessarily with having deep and meaningful trust. And I
Speaker 3: think it's interesting how this comes back when Mike eventually
Speaker 3: does show up on Susan's doorstep and says, you know,
Speaker 3: ask me anything that you want and I'll tell you
Speaker 3: whatever it is that you want to know. And Susan says, well,
Speaker 3: that's my answer, And of course then that leads to
Speaker 3: their beautiful climactic scene of finally sleeping together, which we
Speaker 3: can get to. But I'm curious what you think about
Speaker 3: this in terms of our relationship. Do you feel like
Speaker 3: couple should tell each other everything? Where do you feel
Speaker 3: like that line is?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 5: We all have a strong right to a personal inner
Speaker 5: life that is private. I think that it's only become
Speaker 5: more of a debate in relationships because of technology, right,
Speaker 5: like having access to each other's phones, or having access
Speaker 5: to each other's social media, or even just location sharing.
Speaker 4: You know, where is the line with.
Speaker 5: What access we allow others to have? And I, personally
Speaker 5: I would agree Emerson, I kind of fall more or
Speaker 5: towards the side of total honesty and access isn't necessarily.
Speaker 4: The healthiest option.
Speaker 5: I think we, like I said, I think we deserve
Speaker 5: personal inner lives. But I also think if you have
Speaker 5: an instinct in a relationship. I'm speaking romantic relationships, but
Speaker 5: I guess in other ones as well. If you have
Speaker 5: an instinct that you're wanting to read someone's texts or
Speaker 5: you're wanting to snoop through their house, like, pay attention
Speaker 5: to that instinct more than doing the thing itself.
Speaker 4: The instinct might be onto something.
Speaker 2: I feel like.
Speaker 3: I always say that, like I am so and I
Speaker 3: have never in a relationship and I never would ask
Speaker 3: or ask to go through someone's phone or tolerate anyone
Speaker 3: asking to go through my phone, because I have said
Speaker 3: to my friends who have had this in that relationship
Speaker 3: where they've been like, oh, I just went through his phone.
Speaker 2: I've gone to me.
Speaker 3: I think the minute you're going through someone's phone, the
Speaker 3: relationship's dead. The trust is gone, and what set you
Speaker 3: on the path to arrive at that place. It requires
Speaker 3: more investigation, I think than whatever may or may not
Speaker 3: be on someone's life.
Speaker 6: I was going to say a little bit different was that,
Speaker 6: Like I do think it's it's it's an interesting that
Speaker 6: you'll hear about, like as people begin to get into relationships,
Speaker 6: and which is what Susan Mike are doing, Like as
Speaker 6: they're dating. I think you have to hold two things
Speaker 6: at once. You have to hold that you are present
Speaker 6: and you are moving forward, and you are being vulnerable
Speaker 6: and you are trusting that the scenario is going to
Speaker 6: unfold in a good way. But you have to also
Speaker 6: know that you are strong enough to withstand other information
Speaker 6: when it's revealed and do something about it. So not
Speaker 6: project the negative, not be afraid of the negative, Like
Speaker 6: be positive, be optimistic, but know that that can come
Speaker 6: from a sort of resonating strength that is within you.
Speaker 6: And I think holding both of those things at once
Speaker 6: gives you the best opportunity to find and curate a
Speaker 6: positive relationship. You know, I think Susan, if I'm looking
Speaker 6: at Susan, I don't know that she is so strong.
Speaker 6: I think that she, you know, is quite braill and
Speaker 6: fragile and probably leans on Julie too much. And you know,
Speaker 6: I feel like one more relationship goes wrong and she's
Speaker 6: going to end up, you know, like falling to pieces
Speaker 6: and and that's not a good place to begin a
Speaker 6: relationship from. If I were Susan's therapist, That's what I
Speaker 6: would say.
Speaker 5: And speaking of like we're again, we're kind of talking
Speaker 5: about therapy and religions as places to turn to for
Speaker 5: when we were having these big questions. So I think
Speaker 5: we have to talk about another. He asked the moment
Speaker 5: in this episode, which is when Gabrielle and Father Crowley
Speaker 5: are in the hospital room and she says, what I
Speaker 5: want is to be happy, and he says, that's the
Speaker 5: answer of a selfish child.
Speaker 7: And I imagine we all kind of gasped at that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did, I did.
Speaker 3: I mean I had two moments I gasped that with
Speaker 3: Gabby in this episode. One was her saying we're not
Speaker 3: negotiating my uterus to Carlos, who.
Speaker 4: Has starting timely.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, so timely, which is crazy that twenty
Speaker 3: years later, this twenty one years later, this is arguably
Speaker 3: more timely than ever. But jumping to the father Crowley conversation,
Speaker 3: I really was taken aback by this as well, because
Speaker 3: I felt vehemently in my body. I was like, I disagree,
Speaker 3: I disagree with this. I do not think that being
Speaker 3: happy is selfish, And I actually think it's the story
Speaker 3: that we tell ourselves that doing things that make us
Speaker 3: happy in our life makes us selfish.
Speaker 2: That can lead to a lot of shame. I think
Speaker 2: that we are on this.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's interesting because we could get into religion,
Speaker 3: and if either of you are religious, or if you
Speaker 3: believe in more traditional ideas of religion, I personally don't.
Speaker 3: I fall on much more of a generally spiritual side
Speaker 3: of things, where I believe that it is a miracle
Speaker 3: to be in a human body and to have the
Speaker 3: universe align that we get to be alive in this
Speaker 3: moment and experience the world in this tangible way. And
Speaker 3: I think a part of the great gift of being
Speaker 3: alive is that you are entitled to enjoy your life,
Speaker 3: like you are titled to be happy in your life.
Speaker 3: And I think so much of the suffering in the
Speaker 3: world comes from figures of authority like Father Crowley telling
Speaker 3: people that it is selfish to be happy, and I
Speaker 3: kind of think, frankly, that's bullshit.
Speaker 6: I agree that moment really struck me as a as
Speaker 6: not a good message, you know, coming from somebody in authority. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I agree with everything you said. It is so interesting,
Speaker 6: isn't it. Like it's so much of our suffering comes
Speaker 6: from our own stories, our own self like we do
Speaker 6: it to ourselves, we do it to each other, and
Speaker 6: I guess it probably leads back to power, people in power,
Speaker 6: people who want control, people making rules. I mean, and
Speaker 6: these are all things that are.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, you can totally see how a priest telling
Speaker 3: a young beautiful woman that being happy makes her selfish
Speaker 3: and instead she should do whatever he's going to say
Speaker 3: she should do is like, uh, hello.
Speaker 2: I see the control happening here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah, which, and I guess, like, I think the other
Speaker 5: line you brought up in this episode, Emerson, where Carlos
Speaker 5: has said in front of Brion Rex that they are
Speaker 5: going to start trying to have children, and Gabrielle's like, no,
Speaker 5: we're not, and we had already talked about this prior
Speaker 5: to getting married, like you knew that I don't feel
Speaker 5: that way, And that leads to the button of her saying, well,
Speaker 5: my you know, my uterus is not up for negotiation, man. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I mean, here we are in twenty twenty five, where
Speaker 5: our uteruses are very much up for negotiation evidently. And yeah,
Speaker 5: it struck me that this show remains timely unfortunately sometimes
Speaker 5: and fortunately in others, you know what, But again, like, wow,
Speaker 5: what a bold and brave episode this was. I really
Speaker 5: think it's a really cool one just to hone in
Speaker 5: on specifically as we're rewatching, I feel like this is
Speaker 5: going to stand out as a really specifically the important episode.
Speaker 3: I think another thing another storyline that I loved in
Speaker 3: this episode that I just do think is obviously worth
Speaker 3: talking about because then it coalesces with the storyline of
Speaker 3: Mike and Susan finally sleeping together.
Speaker 2: Which I do want to hear about, Mom, if you
Speaker 2: have any memories, yeah.
Speaker 3: Okay, But is obviously is Paul realizing that the stationary
Speaker 3: is not actually Edie's stationary. And I love the kind
Speaker 3: of odd couple dynamic between Edie and Martha Hooper where
Speaker 3: she's like, oh, yeah, we steal each other's stuff, and
Speaker 3: you come to realize that the note was actually Martha's
Speaker 3: and not and.
Speaker 7: She refers to her in this episode as her best friend.
Speaker 3: I know, which is is very complex and dad. And
Speaker 3: then we have Paul going over to I don't think
Speaker 3: he necessarily goes over with the intent of killing Martha Hobber.
Speaker 3: I think he is over to get answers and then
Speaker 3: gets angry and in a and I'm kind of curious
Speaker 3: what you think if there really is such a thing
Speaker 3: as a crime of passion and if that is an
Speaker 3: excuse for committing a heinous act, because I don't think
Speaker 3: it is an excuse, but I do think it can happen,
Speaker 3: and we see it happen here, and you already pointed
Speaker 3: this out, Mom, But the poetic irony of him killing
Speaker 3: her with a very blender that she takes from Mary
Speaker 3: Alice in the pilot when she realizes that Mary Alice
Speaker 3: is dead and she takes her name off of that blender.
Speaker 2: Is fantastic.
Speaker 3: But I feel like, I it was just very interesting
Speaker 3: to me how there was the real lot of this episode,
Speaker 3: like ramping up alongside all of these more emotional themes and.
Speaker 2: What were you gonna say?
Speaker 6: I feel I was gonna say, there are consequences to
Speaker 6: every action, and you know, if Martha hadn't stolen the blender,
Speaker 6: it wouldn't have been there for her to be killed with.
Speaker 6: And it just wow, right, and it just makes me
Speaker 6: also think, you know, like the consequences. I think Bree's
Speaker 6: son Andrew is very disappointingly behaving with his consequences of
Speaker 6: having run over one Ita, Like he seems to be like, oh,
Speaker 6: I'm bummed out. I have to ride my bike now,
Speaker 6: like driving the car.
Speaker 3: Driving the car by the way that Rex got him
Speaker 3: as a kind of like bribe apology for the marital
Speaker 3: problems with brit.
Speaker 5: Right by trying to buy his loyalty and his love.
Speaker 6: I want to go back a little bit, just personally,
Speaker 6: like for anybody who's ever had their child drive like it,
Speaker 6: driving people underestimate. I mean, it's just a very serious responsibility.
Speaker 6: Like it's kind of crazy that we let sixteen year
Speaker 6: olds do it, like like like right, it actually is
Speaker 6: kind of crazy. I understand it. But when you think
Speaker 6: about the cognitive ability that somebody at sixteen has and
Speaker 6: more importantly doesn't have, and that we're giving them this
Speaker 6: weapon really for all intentsive purposes, that to use at
Speaker 6: their discretion, it's actually kind of crazy to me. But
Speaker 6: when Emerson was first learning to drive, and I I
Speaker 6: guess no idea, there's more about me than it does
Speaker 6: about you. But so she went to school quite far
Speaker 6: from our house, and for all of her school life,
Speaker 6: her father and I you know, would would drive her
Speaker 6: there and.
Speaker 2: All three freeway tracks.
Speaker 6: There was like an episode of the Californians on Saturday
Speaker 6: Night Live. It was like you got to take the
Speaker 6: five to the one seventy to the two ten to
Speaker 6: the one eighteen, you know.
Speaker 4: What a valley girl.
Speaker 7: So when she was.
Speaker 6: Finally doing that on her own, I chose to follow
Speaker 6: her to school on the freeway.
Speaker 7: So like you tail tailed, I tailed her the whole way.
Speaker 2: And then I and then she would give me.
Speaker 3: A report of how well or badly I done the drive.
Speaker 2: I mean, granted, I think you all needed this, like
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 6: I just did a handful of times, and I'm sure
Speaker 6: it was more for me, but you know it, the
Speaker 6: first couple of times, I was like, I think you
Speaker 6: could have turned your blinker on sooner. I think you
Speaker 6: could have made that lane change a little sooner so
Speaker 6: that you weren't quite so close to the exit, you know.
Speaker 7: I just and I actually thought, like, I don't know
Speaker 7: that this is.
Speaker 6: A bad idea because you don't really know how you're
Speaker 6: driving from sitting in the car and like having somebody
Speaker 6: observe your driving and try to give you like constructive
Speaker 6: criticism on what you did well and what you didn't
Speaker 6: do well. But anyway, yeah, I was I've never heard
Speaker 6: of any other whack adoodle mother doing that that I did.
Speaker 4: Emerson.
Speaker 5: Now you have your mom to thank for all of
Speaker 5: the discounts you're going to from your insurance company forever,
Speaker 5: because you're going to get that good driver discount.
Speaker 4: It's true, Mom's in real time. How's my driving feedback?
Speaker 3: I really do think I pride myself on being a
Speaker 3: pretty good driver, but you're right, it is. It is
Speaker 3: a huge responsibility thinking about Andrew driving this car, and
Speaker 3: of course he's driving the car inebriated, but driving in
Speaker 3: any type of emotional state, even if you haven't been
Speaker 3: drinking or doing any types of drugs, it is a
Speaker 3: huge responsibility to get behind the wheel that I think
Speaker 3: we become just totally numb too, because we do it
Speaker 3: every day. And I often think when I'm on the
Speaker 3: freeway even now, still to this day, I think of
Speaker 3: this thing that my dad said to me, which if
Speaker 3: anyone is teaching their kids how to drive and they're
Speaker 3: following them the way that my mom was, you can
Speaker 3: take this piece of parenting driving advice as well. My
Speaker 3: dad said to me when I was driving on the freeway,
Speaker 3: he was like, you just need to think if your
Speaker 3: car is going sixty five miles an hour, seventy miles
Speaker 3: an hour down the freeway. All of the organs in
Speaker 3: your body are hurdling through space at that velocity.
Speaker 2: Too, and it's my mom is like cracking up, dying No.
Speaker 3: But I gotta say, there's something incredibly arresting about thinking
Speaker 3: about like your fragile heart and brain, brain and lungs
Speaker 3: like hurdling through space at seventy miles an hour and
Speaker 3: makes I sometimes do think about it, and I get
Speaker 3: a little tripped out, and I'm like, oh, I gotta
Speaker 3: be careful. I don't want to abruptly stop all of
Speaker 3: my organs hurdling.
Speaker 4: But I have too funny. I have two funny memories
Speaker 4: coming to.
Speaker 5: Me that I had experienced on Desperate Housewives, because of
Speaker 5: course I learned to drive at some point.
Speaker 4: During my journey on the show.
Speaker 5: And one is I remember driving a golf cart before
Speaker 5: ever driving a real car, because we would have to
Speaker 5: drive the golf cart, you know, we didn't usually drive
Speaker 5: the golf cart to go from our base camper.
Speaker 2: Feel empowered?
Speaker 4: Were you like?
Speaker 2: Was it fun?
Speaker 7: I think I was so white knuckling that steering.
Speaker 5: Wheel that I don't know if I got to enjoy
Speaker 5: it at all.
Speaker 4: But another one is that In a later season, I
Speaker 4: Julie goes through a.
Speaker 5: Car wash, and there's this scene where she goes through
Speaker 5: a car wash.
Speaker 7: And I remember having to drive the car.
Speaker 4: It was one of those car washes where you have
Speaker 4: to hook your.
Speaker 5: Wheels into and I was a new driver and I
Speaker 5: would struggle with that now sometimes lining that up correctly
Speaker 5: and getting pulled through.
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I was terrified.
Speaker 5: And I think I embarrassed myself in front of the
Speaker 5: entire crew trying to get that thing in those wheels
Speaker 5: in the right way.
Speaker 4: I loved you.
Speaker 6: You did not embarrass yourself. The crew loved you. I'm
Speaker 6: sure everyone was on your side.
Speaker 4: That's I'm sure they were already.
Speaker 3: You learned to.
Speaker 4: Drive during that show.
Speaker 6: God, that you grew up during this is just insane,
Speaker 6: you know, circling back to how you started the whole
Speaker 6: thing about, you know, wanting to have a plan, and
Speaker 6: that's when people looking towards religion for that. It is
Speaker 6: really I think that is really true that people struggle
Speaker 6: with not having the answers to big things, and I
Speaker 6: think hard I think it would be. It's so good
Speaker 6: to work on in yourself your comfort with the not knowing,
Speaker 6: because the truth is you are never in control, and
Speaker 6: you will never know even when you think you do,
Speaker 6: you know, like you still don't.
Speaker 3: We're all on this planet with our organs just hurtling
Speaker 3: through me.
Speaker 6: Why to keep my little organs tucked away in my
Speaker 6: little ripage?
Speaker 5: And I know I keep baking about thinking my child
Speaker 5: and my body. I'm like, well, you're going to stay
Speaker 5: in there a little bit long, younger than because the
Speaker 5: idea of really listening to you talk about driving behind
Speaker 5: Emerson to school, Like, I totally understand how that would
Speaker 5: make you feel a little bit more sense of control,
Speaker 5: even though it's maybe false, but it gives you some
Speaker 5: It's so scary and vulnerable to be, like, hey, go
Speaker 5: out into the world and be and be vulnerable to others,
Speaker 5: you know, others actions. And so now I just think
Speaker 5: that I'm going to stay pregnant forever.
Speaker 3: Oh wait, jumping back to what you were saying, Mom.
Speaker 3: In terms of people turn to religion, they turn to
Speaker 3: these widely read books such as the Bible or you
Speaker 3: know what, to try to have an idea of this.
Speaker 3: There could be a blueprint in the absence of that,
Speaker 3: I feel like the three of us are kind of
Speaker 3: agreeing that we are not necessarily like religious people in
Speaker 3: that sense of our life getting meaning from an organized religion.
Speaker 3: What tools do you feel like you, both of you,
Speaker 3: either of you carry with you to help you have
Speaker 3: the world feel like less of a random and chaotic place.
Speaker 6: Now that's I'm not sure that I do think that
Speaker 6: the world is less random and chaotic like I think
Speaker 6: part of the giving over to having a sense of
Speaker 6: peace with it all is that I lean into understanding
Speaker 6: that I don't have control and trying to find my
Speaker 6: own comfort in that, and then just being really present
Speaker 6: with gratitude for what is, and also responsibility for what
Speaker 6: I can do, you know, for the things that I
Speaker 6: can control and can do. And I think that's what
Speaker 6: helps me. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I'm going to have to keep thinking about that.
Speaker 5: I think for me, I am trying to be better
Speaker 5: at paying attention to my body cues than.
Speaker 7: My brain cues always, because.
Speaker 5: I do think there's a lot of truth in the
Speaker 5: instincts we feel in life, and my brain will sometimes
Speaker 5: work over time to convince me of something when my
Speaker 5: body's kind of already told me what I need to know,
Speaker 5: But I don't necessarily pay attention.
Speaker 4: To that the same way, and so.
Speaker 5: I think that's a tool I could continue to work
Speaker 5: on that I'm certainly experiencing more of in pregnancy, is
Speaker 5: listening to my body and trusting what it's trying to
Speaker 5: tell me or signal to me, and quieting my brain
Speaker 5: a little bit.
Speaker 6: I think also, you know, I'm not interested in ruminating
Speaker 6: on questions that can't be answered, you know, And this
Speaker 6: is my thing about religion, Like Ricky Gervais has a
Speaker 6: couple of great comedic lines that he's said.
Speaker 4: Over the years about this, but like.
Speaker 6: I can't know that there isn't a god, and you
Speaker 6: can't know that there is one, Like I'm not more
Speaker 6: right or less right, and I just feel like it
Speaker 6: makes it a non starter. Like I feel like there's
Speaker 6: so many non starters that people kind of get hung
Speaker 6: up fighting about. Like, if it serves you to create
Speaker 6: beliefs that are working for you to have a happy,
Speaker 6: positive life, then that's great. Like our behaviors do come
Speaker 6: from our beliefs, but our beliefs aren't necessarily the truth.
Speaker 6: They aren't necessarily facts, they are beliefs. And so if
Speaker 6: you recognize that beliefs you have aren't leading you towards
Speaker 6: a happy, productive life, then maybe change your beliefs, you know,
Speaker 6: And so I think that's really well Son, Well it
Speaker 6: felt a little spongy, I know by the way that
Speaker 6: I'm going to miss Missus Hooper. I think that was
Speaker 6: maybe a mistake in hindsight, I don't I wonder. I
Speaker 6: can't wait till we get to talk to a writer
Speaker 6: on this show, because I wonder who made that decision
Speaker 6: and why.
Speaker 4: But it felt early.
Speaker 3: It felt it was just too good to cut between
Speaker 3: the smashing in the head and the banging against the
Speaker 3: wall sexually.
Speaker 6: It was just Susan getting banged and missus Uber getten
Speaker 6: banged at the same time.
Speaker 5: Wow, yeah, exactly totally though, rip Missus Huber.
Speaker 7: Really yeah, I.
Speaker 6: Just loved I wanted to know more about her, Like
Speaker 6: I don't think I was ready for her to be gone.
Speaker 5: Maybe will continue, Yeah, maybe we'll continue to learn more
Speaker 5: and more through through the brilliant use.
Speaker 7: Of flashback, which desperhasfe likes to do.
Speaker 4: And to end on sex.
Speaker 6: You asked Emerson what I remembered about the making out
Speaker 6: stuff with Mike and Susan towards the end, and the
Speaker 6: truth is not a lot. You know, I feel like,
Speaker 6: oh come on, no, okay, Like Jamie and I really
Speaker 6: like each other. There is some innate chemistry there for sure,
Speaker 6: also a ton of respect.
Speaker 2: It's so weird to shoot.
Speaker 6: Those kinds of scenes because there's uh, you know, crew
Speaker 6: and lighting and you know, it's it's it's the opposite
Speaker 6: of sexy, if that's what you think. And and for me,
Speaker 6: I look at it, it was hard for me to
Speaker 6: think that I seemed sexy. Like I don't know, I feel.
Speaker 4: Like, well you do, well, all right.
Speaker 6: I love that I have both of you echoing in
Speaker 6: that I that I am I am sexy or that
Speaker 6: I was. I don't know. It's just it's something that's
Speaker 6: so shut down in me. I just it's hard for me.
Speaker 6: It's hard for me to perceive it that way.
Speaker 3: But I think, I mean, as a storyteller, I also
Speaker 3: just think the scenario whenever there's long built tension and
Speaker 3: a character lets themselves have what they want, that's the
Speaker 3: sexiest thing ever.
Speaker 5: And no, Father Prowley, that is not selfish.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's the point of being alive on this random.
Speaker 2: Planet is to have it you want and enjoy it.
Speaker 6: Okay, So those are great parting words, have what you
Speaker 6: want and enjoy it and don't feel selfish about it.
Speaker 6: So with that, go have what you want, and then
Speaker 6: come back next week and tell us all about it,
Speaker 6: and share it with your friends and.
Speaker 2: Be honest with them.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm desperately desperately devoted to hearing how everybody takes
Speaker 6: care of themselves this week, and we will be here
Speaker 6: next week.
Speaker 1: So join it because, as always, we are desperately devoted
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 3: M m hm