WEBVTT - Lab 037: In Denial 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.080 Hey, y'all, we are finally back. Oh my goodness, it's 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:09.280 been too long, man. So much life has happened, So 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.080 much has happened, so much science has happened. Yes, so 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:16.159 much nonscience has happened on somebody. And that's why we 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:18.799 had to come back. I felt like when the world 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:21.480 needed us the most, we disappeared like the avatar aang. 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:25.080 It just was not right. Well, we are finally here 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:27.960 to make it right. I'm TT and I'm Zakiah and 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:55.720 from Spotify, this is Dope Labs. Welcome back to semester 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.320 four of Dope Labs. We have missed you so much, 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.240 but let's just jump into it. For the uninitiated, Dope 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:09.080 Labs is a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science, pop culture, 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.440 and a healthy dose of friendship. This week, we're talking 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.840 all about something that's been heavy on our minds and 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:20.279 hearts for the last few months, science denial. But before 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.080 we get into that, we have some exciting news that 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:24.919 we want to tell y'all about. You thought you couldn't 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:28.319 get enough before, Well, we're gonna find out more more, more, 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:34.280 more Dumblamore, More Dope Lab, More Dope Lab. Moore, Hey, 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.479 y'all ask for it. No more of the bi weekly stuff. 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.040 We're gonna be in your ears every single week. And 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.320 that's not the only big change that's happening. Semester four 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.919 is coming exclusively to Spotify for free starting December sixteenth. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.640 So if you already listened to us on Spotify, keep 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.920 doing what you're doing, and don't forget to follow Dope 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.240 Labs and tap that little bell icon so you never 0:01:56.320 --> 0:01:59.680 missed when a new episode drops. Now after December sixteenth 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:03.200 be able to hear new episodes of Dope Labs anywhere else. 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:05.280 So if you don't listen to us on Spotify yet, 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:07.680 be sure that you go ahead and make that change. 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.000 Spotify is where you can listen to Dope Labs plus 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.639 all your other favorite shows for free. All right, ze, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.920 I hope you're ready. Let's start the show. We're starting 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:19.720 off this new semester with a real banger. This week, 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.960 we're talking all about science denial. This has been a 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.880 huge topic, especially when it comes to the pandemic, but 0:02:26.160 --> 0:02:28.920 we've also seen a lot of science denial reports in 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:32.520 recent years with other issues too. Tit you like climate change, absolutely, 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:37.520 we're really passionate about scientific information and combating science denial 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.919 in general. I mean, it's why we started the podcast. Yes, yes, 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.480 we want science to be accessible for everybody, and part 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:47.000 of that means having good information and the right tools 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.520 to make decisions, especially when it comes to your health. 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.040 So we really wanted to understand science denial, its history, 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.720 and the motivations behind it. And trust us when we 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:58.799 say this issue is not as simple as it might seem. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.080 So let's get into the rest of tap. 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:08.480 But it's a sham Sam Sam Sam, shams Sam, But 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:14.000 it's a sham sham. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.520 If you're new to Dope Labs. We typically structure our 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.280 episodes into three main parts, the recitation, the dissection, and 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.840 the conclusion. The recitations at the beginning of the lab 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.280 where we get everybody on the same page and define 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.040 what we know already and what we want to know 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.480 by the end of the episode, right, And that's followed 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:31.799 up by the dissection where we answer those questions in 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.680 the recitation, where we talk to our guest expert and 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.760 learn all the information we do our deep dive during 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:40.120 this part of the episode, and then we get to 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.440 the conclusion where we put a nice bow on everything. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.360 We kind of round up everything that we have learned 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:48.760 throughout the rest of the lab and talk about any 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.560 conclusions that we can make. All right, So for this 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.440 episode about science denial, what do we know? Why are 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.880 we talking about this? Well? I feel like science denials 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.600 on the tip of everybody sung right now because of 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:06.720 the virus spreading that shall not be named. No, we're 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.680 in the middle of a pandemic. So this is a 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.880 new experience, a new shared experience for all of us. 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:13.960 And so there's a lot of people who are very confused, 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.800 who are trying to get up to speed with the 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:22.920 science around viruses, virus transmission, vaccines and everything like that. 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.800 And there's a lot of fear, absolutely, I think in 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.640 addition to all those things you just said and fear, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:33.000 there's a lot of information of varying quality and truth 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.040 being spread. If you're trying to make some decisions, it's 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.520 hard to know who or what to believe, and you're 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.680 just constantly bombarded with information. Yeah, and then we also 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:48.080 know that science denial is affecting very specific communities more 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.840 than others. The other thing I want to know is 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.880 where do we draw the line from skepticism to denial, 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.719 Because I feel like a healthy dose of skepticism is good, right. 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.719 I think that helps you have like really great conversations. Right, 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.640 But there's like this really thin line where things start 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.640 to go left. Another question that I have is what 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.760 can we do to check in on ourselves. I'm not 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:12.720 coming from a place where I'm on a high horist. 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:14.520 How do I check in with myself? How do I 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.680 check myself if I'm falling victim to that? I think 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.360 all of those are really good questions. Let's jump into 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:25.880 the dissection. Our guests for today are doctor Gail Sinatra 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:27.360 and doctor Barbara Hoefer. 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.520 My name is Gale Sinatra, and I'm a professor at 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:35.479 USC University of Southern California in the Rossier School of Education. 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.640 And I am Barbara Hoefer. I'm recently retired from Middlebury College, 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.200 so professor Amrita and that's in Vermont. 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:45.279 Doctors Hofer and Sinatra published a book earlier this summer 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.000 called Science Denial, Why It Happens and What to Do 0:05:48.080 --> 0:05:51.560 about It. Their book explores the psychological issues that keep 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.280 folks from having a broad understanding of science. It also 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:58.000 offers solutions for those wondering what they can do to 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.080 help curb the spread of misinformation. And when we say 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:04.000 we want to know about science denial, what we mean 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.560 is we want to know why people may flat out deny, 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.840 or maybe just a little bit doubt or resist scientific 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:15.880 fact or general scientific conclusions. What's keeping them from accepting 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:18.920 what's already been proven. It can feel really easy to say, 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:23.200 not me, I'm not a victim of science denial. But 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:27.200 it's not just accepting big issues like climate change or 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.479 understanding that vaccine's work. It could also be how you 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.480 decide to take risks, or if you choose to buckle 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.400 up in your seat belt even though you know it 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:37.239 can protect you in a crash. I think it's also 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:39.719 these smaller nuanced things in our day to day lives 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:43.560 as well. And everyone is susceptible, all of us, even 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.080 the people that you know have been highly trained in 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:49.520 the science field. We can all be a part of 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.599 that group. And I think that is something that folks 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.560 have to understand. What I still want to know a 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.880 little bit more about is that difference between skepticism and 0:06:57.920 --> 0:06:59.920 stepping all the way over to science deny. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:02.640 We want people to be skeptical if you see one 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:07.400 study with a small sample and there's some clickbait headline, 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.920 be suspicious, be skeptical. That's the time to question it 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.440 if it has not been substantiated, corroborated, supported with additional studies. 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.160 TTU posted something the other day and I was like, 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.240 spot on, Oh no, what did I say. I've seen 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.360 a lot of crazy stuff on Twitter. You said it's 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.480 been a year and a half or a year and 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.560 nine months. If you're still doing their research, what kind 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:32.760 of research is it? Yeah? I just feel like people 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.960 are still saying I'm doing my research on coronavirus. I'm like, hello, yeah, 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:40.440 you doing research. You're kind of just not doing anything 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.360 and being stuck in your thought process, which I understand. 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.520 This is a big topic to turn and swallow. Yes, 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.560 especially if you have to get all the background skills, 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:56.880 if you need to understand virology, immunology, molecular biology, vaccine design, sociology, 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:02.600 human behavior, risk management, that's a big mountain to climb. Yes. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.400 And you know, we've talked about skepticism. We mentioned it 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.800 a little bit earlier, but I think there's a difference 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.280 between skepticism of information that you know, you don't know 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.600 where the source is, it's just tumbling down your feed 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.920 versus the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.320 telling you that the cases are rising in your area, 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.280 and you're like, h, I don't believe what they're saying. 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.800 That's not just skepticism right there. So how do we 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.360 identify science denial? 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.360 Then you don't see people who are very doubting and 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.880 resisting science, hesitating to use an iPhone or get on 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:41.000 a plane. They're not denying physics, they're not denying the 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.439 technology that goes into Wi Fi. So it is this 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:52.480 phenomena of selective denial, which really is driven by your motivations, 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:56.720 your emotions. So you're picking and choosing what you like 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.360 about science and what you don't like, and science doesn't 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:00.120 work that way. 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:01.880 That's such a good point. You know, science does not 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.280 care about your feelings. It's not about our opinions or 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:05.800 what we want to be true. 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.800 It's about what the evidence suggests is our best understanding 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:11.200 of the science at the time. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.280 Yes, it's so important to remember that science is backed 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:19.000 up by research and evidence. For example, with masking and vaccine, 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:22.600 scientists are doing studies to see how effective those measures 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:27.600 are and then creating guidelines accordingly. And yes, these guidelines 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.040 can change as the evidence changes as we learn more. 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:32.800 But we'll talk a little bit more about that later. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.000 But I think we should start with the history of 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.040 science denial. Tt let's rewind a little bit. Have we 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.559 seen science denial before in different forms? And how did 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:42.400 we get here? 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:48.880 The history of science probably starts with science denial, doubt 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:49.640 and resistance. 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:52.080 We try to trace it back to Galileo and you 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.200 think about how he was under house arrests for the 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:56.199 beliefs that he had, how long it took for people 0:09:56.200 --> 0:09:59.520 to accept his theories. Think about Darwin, It took more 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.000 than a n undred years for scientists to accept fully 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.200 what he was proposing in the way of evolution. 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:07.480 So, for real, it feels like science denial has been 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:09.880 going on since the beginning of science itself, and in 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:13.280 the last fifty years it's become more pervasive as there's 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.320 been some outside meddling, so corporations realizing that fostering some 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.480 science denial could help their bottom line. It all goes 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:21.199 back to the money. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:25.120 Beginning with the tobacco industry, for example, were interested in 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.920 trying to deflect the idea that somehow it was cancer causing, 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:32.040 and they hired pr firms to so doubt, and the 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.920 same companies are being used by Exxon and other corporations 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.120 to make it look as though climate change isn't a 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:38.760 certain fact. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:41.839 In fact, even as recently as twenty ten, Philip Morris 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:46.200 has routinely argued that Marlboro gold cigarettes actually decrease the 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.840 risk of cancer. That's wild, but that brings us to today. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.080 With a global pandemic and a steadily warming planet. It 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.000 feels like people are holding their noses up at scientific 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:58.080 evidence left and right. So this has made me ask 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.880 is there an increase science of denial? 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:05.280 I think the difference that we see is the amplification 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.079 of misinformation through social media, and that's coupled with us 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.480 living in our information bubbles where we get the same 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:20.520 information and if it's misinformation, that's same misinformation reinforced over 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:24.000 and over again and it becomes more credible. There's the 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.600 joke that misinformation travels around the world before the truth 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.480 gets up and puts its pants on. Misinformation is really compelling. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.960 It's sometimes interesting or intriguing or even funny to some people, 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.400 and that gets the clicks. And as we know the 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:45.160 way the algorithms are shaped, that more clicks gets more attention. 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.120 We've talked about algorithms on social media before. What goes 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:53.640 viral isn't always true. It really helps us understand why 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.440 it's so important to talk about science denial right now. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.200 So when you think about that amplification and what we 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.199 know about the brain, and the more you see something, 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.320 the more is reinforced and you begin to believe it. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.640 I think all that makes sense in the current context. 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.560 Sometimes people who are science deniers go overboard and say 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:13.040 I'm just waiting for the science. Well, part of the 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.040 science is assessing risk. Early on and even later in 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:19.520 the pandemic, was people outright saying no to mass like, 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.480 it's not gonna keep you one hundred percent safe. Well, ma'am, 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.640 if it's going to keep you ninety percent safe, I'm 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.480 gonna say, that's still useful, right, And I think that's 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.400 the part that we start to see this kind of 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:34.040 doubling down on. I'm so scientific. I know ninety is 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.360 less than one hundred, but I think you also know 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.920 ninety is higher than zero. You know, It's like if 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:41.680 you look at the forecast and it says there's a 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.000 seventy percent chance of rain, you see that and then 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:47.320 you're like, Okay, let me take my umbrella just in case. Right, 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.480 this is the same thing. You don't say, I'm not 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.320 gonna take my umbrella because it's not one hundred percent 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.760 chance of rain exactly. So why don't you apply that 0:12:54.800 --> 0:13:10.120 same logic to mass. Now that we have an understanding 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:14.760 of what science denial is, we want to understand what 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.880 is causing people to flock to science denial. Let's get 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.760 into the reasons. Doctor Sinatra and doctor Hoefer outline five 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:27.040 explanations for science denial, doubt, and resistance. The first is 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:31.440 mental shortcuts and cognitive biases, second is understanding beliefs on 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.560 how and what you know. The third is motivated reasoning, 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.600 fourth is social identity, and the fifth is emotions and 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:44.760 attitudes and not attitude like the keys attitude, different attitude. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.640 The first explanation is mental shortcuts and cognitive biases. Right. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.080 Cognitive biases are kind of these mental gymnastics that we 0:13:54.120 --> 0:13:56.000 do so we don't have to run through all the 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.240 processing every time. Yeah, so our brain is learning along 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:02.560 the way. You know, A equals Z, and you don't 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.040 have to do ABCDEFG all the way through. But sometimes 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:08.360 these brains can trick us, and they learn something early 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.640 on and they reinforce it over and over again. We're 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:12.560 going to talk about that in a later episode Mind 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:16.040 Over Matter. But you know, one type of cognitive bias 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.040 is known as confirmation bias. 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:23.760 Confirmation bias is this implicit tendency to seek, recall, affirm 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.640 things that already fit with your existing beliefs. So everybody 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.360 who's listening can probably think of a time when you 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.160 googled something to find an answer. You already thought you 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.360 knew what the answer was, and you're quick googling. As 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.120 soon as you find it, right, you think, okay, that 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.360 supports it, but you don't search laterally across to see 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:44.600 if it's confirmed or if there's anything that contradicts it. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:46.160 That's confirmation bias. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.920 I think we all can remember stuff that we saw 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:52.760 on the early Internet or like heard through the grape 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.720 vine at school. Do you remember me sharing with you 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:56.800 on Twitter where this guy said that he found shrimp 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.280 tails and his Sentimento's christ And I was like, h 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.360 I don't doubt it, because you know, a long time 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.800 ago I saw this thing that said that like up 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.120 to ten percent or something like that of cerial product 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.600 could be unknown material. And as soon as I said 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:12.720 it to you, I was like, hmm, let me check that, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.440 because I was like, I have never heard this. I 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:21.200 don't believe that. And also, my today many years old 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.480 brain knows that ten percent is a lot. I've eaten 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:26.280 a lot of cereal in my day. I've never seen 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.280 anything strange that confirmation biased, you know. I think we've 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:32.480 been trained to always look for a countering point, make 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.600 a liar out of me, make me wrong. That's how 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.920 my Google searches look. I think. The other piece of 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.120 this right, So, if we think of these mental shortcuts, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.360 the second arm of this is just how we think 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:47.040 about knowing and learning in the first place. 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:49.600 Another chapter that we have is on what psychologists call 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:53.800 epistemic cognition, So it's what people believe about knowledge, how 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.280 they think they know. And one of the issues is 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.960 epistemic trust. Who do we trust as a source of knowledge. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:01.920 One of the things we talk about in the book 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.040 are reasons why some people might not trust the medical community. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.440 This feels so relevant TT, especially in the face of 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.560 people deciding whether they trust or don't trust the government 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.080 and regulating organizations like the FDA, and even when we 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.320 see these organizations overstepping each other, just like we see 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.760 the CDC overruling the FDA, who is our regulatory agency, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.360 and the CDC is saying, yes, everybody should have a 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.960 booster shot, right. I mean, when you see stuff like that, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.080 how do you know who to trust? Because they both 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.400 are organizations that we look to for the facts, and 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:38.520 especially after seeing such political influence within those organizations, it's 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.600 hard to know. Hey, if it was susceptible, then is 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.040 it susceptible now? Is it still unbiased? You know, it 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.240 makes it really hard. We see the same thing with 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.640 people being skeptical of mainstream media or which news stations 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.360 they go to for their information, and it's concerning because 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.280 the information is not the same. And we talked about 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.400 this in an article that we wrote for Scientific American. 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.080 You know, the roots of folks distrust of the scientific community, 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.840 the medical community to be real, from force sterilization to 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:11.359 the latest evaluations of disparities and health. Yeah, I mean, historically, 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.560 bad things have happened to minoritized folks and to poor folks, 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.399 and now that leads to poor outcomes for those people. 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:20.720 It's embedded in the system, and it feels like a 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:23.760 snowbal effect because it's self perpetuating. So you have folks 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.400 who are going to receive medical treatment and receiving sub 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.639 par care. That sub par care translates to terrible outcomes. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.960 And when they see that terrible care and terrible outcomes, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.240 the other people that are on the periphery, you know, 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.080 family members, children, parents, they then say, I will not 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.000 trust the medical system, and so they don't go get 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.119 any type of preventative care, or maybe they don't have 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.040 access to preventative care, and so then they continue to 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.720 present with medical issues that are at much later stages 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.080 and then they get poor care then, or even if 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.840 they get good care, then they still have poor outcomes. Right, Yeah, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.040 it's a vicious cycle of things. We even see things 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:00.960 like that present day because I know that there are 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.640 probably some people who think that's old school medicine, no sir, 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:08.240 But when you think about the care that Serena Williams 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.960 had when she was giving birth to her child, she 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.679 almost died, right. She kept communicating that she was in 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.199 a lot of pain, but she wasn't being believed. And 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.119 that is something that studies have come out that have 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.479 said there are a large group of doctors who believe 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.840 that black people have a higher pain tolerance, and so 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.159 they're treated differently, exactly, treated differently from top to bottom. 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:30.720 So that means that black people are less likely to 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.120 get pain medication. It's not even that you can earn 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:35.879 enough money to move you into a different economic class 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.679 and that protects you. It's about being black, even if 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.679 I go to the best hospital. Look at Serena Williams, 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.920 a world class athlete, the Serena Williams, so many grand slams, 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.880 all of that, and she's still a victim of this. 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.920 And so when you consider this right, it makes sense 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.120 that people would have this mistrust or this hesitancy or 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:59.440 resistance to information from the medical community, or the scientific community, 0:18:59.680 --> 0:19:00.560 or even the government. 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.480 We also hear people say ask your doctor, as if 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.320 everyone has a doctor they can just get on the phone. 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:08.960 Do you have access, do you have a relationship with 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:11.399 the doctor, do you know who you can go ask? 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:15.679 Not everyone has that kind of access. Some people have 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:20.320 hypothesized that Great Britain has had a larger percentage of 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.240 people vaccinated because they have a universal health care system 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.080 and everyone knows who their doctor is, and everyone knows 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.879 where they can go and here, people don't necessarily know 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:33.560 where to go, and they don't necessarily have good. 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:37.560 Access, preach doctor Sinatra, and that makes all the sense right. 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:42.159 Along with this historic and current difference in treatment for 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.639 different groups, there's also the matter of access that you overlay. 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.000 And we've heard a lot of things around vaccines where 0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:49.960 people are saying, oh, wow, well, people just get vaccinated. 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:52.040 I'm like, hey, it's a little deeper than wrap. You know, 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:54.000 it's not just am I going to go do this thing. 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.560 I think that that's something that scientists, scientific communicators, and 0:19:57.600 --> 0:20:01.320 folks in the medical community need to take into account 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:06.600 when we are communicating with folks who are skeptical or deniers, 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.960 is that it's not coming from a place of misinformation. 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.479 It's coming from real, lived experience, a real place, and 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.679 it should be respected as such. And TT you hit 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.359 the nail on the head saying that science, communicators and 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.760 organizations need to consider who folks trust right and what 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:26.480 their lived experiences may be. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:30.920 It's also about trust, So you trust people you identify with, 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:35.359 and then you have mistrust for people you don't identify with. 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:38.560 So while it's hard for us to understand why somebody 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:43.800 would take a livestock dewormer rather than a vaccine. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.960 That's right. Folks have been taking ivermectin and that's a 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:50.919 drug that's typically used as a parasitic de wormer for 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:51.800 a livestock. 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.240 It's about where they're finding that information. They don't trust 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.000 the voices that talk about the safety and efficacy of 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.080 the vaccine, but they are trusting people that there's alternative 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:08.199 mechanisms medications to treat COVID, which has no basis. But 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:12.760 they're hearing this information from people they identify with and 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:15.040 that is who they trust. 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.600 So someone in your community who you trust says something 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:23.000 but there's no supporting scientific evidence, that can still sway 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:26.680 people to action or inaction. We saw that with Nicki Minaj. 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.480 What people grabbed onto and ran with is Nikki didn't 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:32.320 take the vaccine and didn't go to the met gala 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.399 because of it, and then she starts talking about some 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:39.520 cousin's friend who has swollen testicles. And that kind of 0:21:39.520 --> 0:21:43.400 misinformation is so dangerous because people won't do their due diligence. 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.480 They're going to say, I love Nikki, okay, I love Roman, 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.160 and they will run with that information and they'll say 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:51.000 that's all I need to know. 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.679 We have realized that nobody trusts just one person. We 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.840 all have multiple people in our worlds that we trust, 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.400 and doctors and pastors, for example, can be very influential 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:02.680 in terms of the vaccine. 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:05.960 And this brings us right back to that algorithm problem though, right, 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.119 because if the multiple people you trust are all in 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:11.639