WEBVTT - Virgin Birth

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I realized I don't know why exactly this happened, but

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<v Speaker 1>towards in the last couple of months, I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>we have been really focusing on the animal kingdom that

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't by design. I guess we just can't stop with

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<v Speaker 1>the things with legs and blood. Well, I think maybe

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening is that we have, without realizing it, being

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<v Speaker 1>constructing a major and Nativity scene. Okay, and of course

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<v Speaker 1>you have to have your various animals present, and and

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<v Speaker 1>so we've been arranging the animal and I guess others

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<v Speaker 1>bearing gifts of of nursery web spider style wrapped up

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<v Speaker 1>packages of dead insect husks and sticks and stuff. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know who the shepherds would be. Well, whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>shepherds are, we know that at the heart of the

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<v Speaker 1>of the Nativity you have to have that that baby Jesus. Granted,

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<v Speaker 1>we did an episode last year on the Baby Jesus

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<v Speaker 1>homunculus and that is rerunning this year. But at the

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<v Speaker 1>heart of this story of the Christmas story and Christian

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<v Speaker 1>traditions is the story of a virgin birth. Now, the

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<v Speaker 1>story of a miraculous birth, of course, is very common

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<v Speaker 1>in in mythology and legend around the world. A god

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<v Speaker 1>being the father of a famous or heroic person is

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<v Speaker 1>a very common motif to appear wise settle for an

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<v Speaker 1>earth dad when you can have a cosmic dad. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it's a it's it's a time tested story. Right. You

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<v Speaker 1>have your demigod heroes that are that that have have

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<v Speaker 1>we at least one parent that is of divine lineage. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>before we go any further, I do want to just

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<v Speaker 1>summarize the Christmas story as it's presented in Christmas Christian traditions,

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<v Speaker 1>just really quickly here, so it's probably familiar to a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of you. You have a first century BC woman

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<v Speaker 1>by the name of Mary, and she finds out via

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<v Speaker 1>angelic visitation that she's destined to become a first century

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<v Speaker 1>CE mom, and not in the way she'd plan. No,

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<v Speaker 1>instead of using offspring via relations with her husband Joseph,

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<v Speaker 1>she has been impregnated by the High God. She is

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<v Speaker 1>a virgin, but will give birth to a divine son.

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<v Speaker 1>And like you, said, this is not an anomaly in

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<v Speaker 1>global myths, legends, and religions, we have other stories of

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<v Speaker 1>some sort of miraculous birth taking place, right, And what

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<v Speaker 1>we wanted to focus on today was the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>though this may in fact be some form of miracle

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<v Speaker 1>if it were to actually happen to a human being,

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<v Speaker 1>in other corners of the natural world, stories like this

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<v Speaker 1>are actually not all that miraculous. They in fact happen

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<v Speaker 1>all the time. Right. So today we're gonna be talking

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<v Speaker 1>about parthenogenesis. That is the the scientific term for what's

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<v Speaker 1>occurring here. It's taken from the Greek words parthenos meaning virgin,

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<v Speaker 1>and genesis meaning origin. So this means in the animal world,

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<v Speaker 1>or in the world of sexually reproducing species, a female

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<v Speaker 1>that reproduces without fertilization by male sex cells, right, And

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<v Speaker 1>it occurs pretty commonly among lower plants and invertebrate animals,

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<v Speaker 1>particularly rotifers, a fids, ants, wasps, and bees. I do

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<v Speaker 1>want to hit just two of my favorite examples from

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<v Speaker 1>the invertebrate invertebrate world. First of all, in the termite

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<v Speaker 1>world is pointed out in a two thousand nine research

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<v Speaker 1>paper from North Carolina State University. Certain female termite primary

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<v Speaker 1>queens of the species Radical Attorney's Separatus reproduce both sexually

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<v Speaker 1>and a sexually during their lifetimes, sexually with the male kings,

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<v Speaker 1>and a sexually to essentially clone themselves to create secondary queens.

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<v Speaker 1>And these are the successor queens that will then mate

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<v Speaker 1>with the king, So it's important for them to have

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<v Speaker 1>no genes in common with them. So that's just I think,

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<v Speaker 1>a fun example. All right, Well here you can you

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<v Speaker 1>can clearly see in this picture why it is advantageous

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<v Speaker 1>to use a sexual reproduction alongside sexual reproduction. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>the greatest benefit of sexual reproduction is that you get

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<v Speaker 1>some variety in there. You don't have the a stagnant

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<v Speaker 1>gene pool right sexual recombination. If you were just making

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<v Speaker 1>copies of your own genes over and over again, it

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<v Speaker 1>becomes much easier for say, parasites to find exploits with

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<v Speaker 1>your body. But if you're constantly randomly recombining your genes

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<v Speaker 1>with other members of your species, then you add some

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<v Speaker 1>diversity to the mix and give yourself more room to

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<v Speaker 1>more genetic wiggle room. It's kind of like say Hollywood

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<v Speaker 1>made the same movie for ten years straight, Like the same,

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<v Speaker 1>say superhero movie, just the same one time after time,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was a really tremendous design. Everyone loved it.

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<v Speaker 1>But then suddenly everyone's decides, you know, not that into

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<v Speaker 1>superhero movies anymore. Bam, an entire decade wasted. Right, that's

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<v Speaker 1>a very loose um explanation, but but that's why you

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<v Speaker 1>get the genre mix up. Throw some zombies in there. No,

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<v Speaker 1>and now you got a whole new thing. Now it's

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<v Speaker 1>fresh again. Yeah, and now people will get into it. Uh.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's another example that I love. This is probably my

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<v Speaker 1>absolute favorite. It's a particular type of Amazonian ant micro

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<v Speaker 1>Capris Smithy, like Alan Smithy speaking films. Uh. This is

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<v Speaker 1>a fungi growing species. It's not unlike the leaf cutter

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<v Speaker 1>aunt and they've actually given up on sexual reproduction altogether

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<v Speaker 1>and have become an all female species. It's a colony

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<v Speaker 1>of clones, so there are a lot more efficient in

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<v Speaker 1>some ways, but they're highly vulnerable due to their lack

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<v Speaker 1>of gene diversity. But they're an example of a species

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<v Speaker 1>that took a reproductive tactic that existed in balance with

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<v Speaker 1>sexual reproduction and eventually made it their own. Means. They're

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<v Speaker 1>only means of reproduction. Now, while this might be more

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<v Speaker 1>common and of course a sexual reproduction is the norm

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<v Speaker 1>amongst a like single celled organism, but while it may

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<v Speaker 1>be more common among invertebrates and these sort of what

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<v Speaker 1>are considered lower order animals, though I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>it really makes sense to consider them lower or higher.

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<v Speaker 1>What does lower or higher means? But anyway, it is

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<v Speaker 1>going to be more surprising to find something like this

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<v Speaker 1>in vertebrates, which normally would expect to be sexually reproducing animals.

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<v Speaker 1>You've got a backbone, you should be having sex, right, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that's why it's such a rarity. Roughly seventy

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<v Speaker 1>backbone species have been known to engage in parthenogenesis or

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<v Speaker 1>exhibit parthenogenesis. That's a roughly point one percent of all vertebrates. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>just a few basic category categories of parthenogenesis before we

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<v Speaker 1>move on to specific examples. Uh, there's accidental. This is

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<v Speaker 1>spontaneous parthenogenesis. Uh, it's not part of the plan, not

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<v Speaker 1>part of the plan, but it does occur. And one

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<v Speaker 1>example we'll see that later is in sharks. There's also facultative.

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<v Speaker 1>This is when a female can produce offspring either sexually

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<v Speaker 1>or via a sexual reproduction. Um, this is a common example,

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<v Speaker 1>but one that we'll look at here in a minute

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<v Speaker 1>is komodo dragons. And then there's obligate Uh, this is

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<v Speaker 1>exclusive a sexual reproduction. That doesn't mean that a given

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<v Speaker 1>species can't use sexual reproduction, but it's certainly not their

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<v Speaker 1>primary means of reproduction. So, you know, think of the

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<v Speaker 1>various invertebrates as an example of this, including the ants

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<v Speaker 1>that I mentioned earlier. Single sex species, yes, especially especially

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<v Speaker 1>single sex species. Well, let's take a look at those

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<v Speaker 1>komodo dragons. Yeah, so the komodo dragon, which is Verona's

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<v Speaker 1>komodo insists, is of course the largest lizard species in

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<v Speaker 1>the world. And Robert, I don't know about you, but

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<v Speaker 1>this was one of my favorite animals when I was

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<v Speaker 1>a kid. I could not get enough of them. I

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<v Speaker 1>love pictures of them. I think I would actually if

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<v Speaker 1>I could get like a national geographic with a picture

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<v Speaker 1>of one, I would cut it out. I seem to

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<v Speaker 1>have some memories of that. Oh yeah, because it's the

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<v Speaker 1>really it's the closest thing you can get to to

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<v Speaker 1>a storybook dinosaur, like not counting not getting into like,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the the evolution of avian species and all that,

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<v Speaker 1>But just in terms of like, I want a giant

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<v Speaker 1>lizard creature like I see in my children's books. This

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<v Speaker 1>is the closest you're gonna get. So yeah, I remember

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<v Speaker 1>being super into it. I remember being like weirdly excited

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<v Speaker 1>when I think was it Kim not Kim Baysinger, Sharon

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<v Speaker 1>Stone's husband was bitten by one. I just remember being

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<v Speaker 1>in thee and yeah, not to make light of that,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm thinking that now it's probably horrific, but

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<v Speaker 1>I remember the time it was like, oh my goodness,

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<v Speaker 1>the Komodo dragons are coming after our celebrities, Like there

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<v Speaker 1>was something weirdly exciting about that. And yet at the

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<v Speaker 1>same what if they get Richard Gear. No, not Richard Gear.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a national treasure. But in terms of seeing them

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<v Speaker 1>in zoos, though, this is one of those animals it

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<v Speaker 1>is both impressive and boring to see in most zoos

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<v Speaker 1>because it's a it's a cold boded creature. It's it's

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<v Speaker 1>just going to be sitting there most of the time.

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<v Speaker 1>An impressive organism, but very little movement unless you're lucky.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, there's there's some tremendous footage of

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<v Speaker 1>them in the wild. If you've watched any of the

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<v Speaker 1>the BBC Earth documentaries, you've seen some of this footage

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<v Speaker 1>of of the active Komodo dragon. And there's nothing, there's

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<v Speaker 1>nothing more terrifying than watching them, say, move in on

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<v Speaker 1>a on a a vulnar horble cow that is trapped

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<v Speaker 1>in the mud. Have you ever watched them doing acrobatic barfing? Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>they're quite They are quite adept at barfing, aren't they

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<v Speaker 1>unbelievable barfing? Like there, I've seen footage of them barfing

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<v Speaker 1>where it looks like they barf up more than their

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<v Speaker 1>own body mass. They are also Remember one of the

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<v Speaker 1>notable things about them is that they will sling intestines

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<v Speaker 1>around to remove the fecal matter from them so they

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<v Speaker 1>can eat the intestines. Okay, I don't think i've read that,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think maybe i've heard you mentioned that before. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>they're they're voracious eaters. So the young commodo dragons have

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<v Speaker 1>to hide from the adults so they don't get eating.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe they climb trees, and of course the grown

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<v Speaker 1>ups cannot really go after them. Yes, they can be

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<v Speaker 1>quite aggressive, even to one another. So this species. They

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<v Speaker 1>live on a number of islands in Indonesia, and as

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<v Speaker 1>adults they get huge. They can grow up to about

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<v Speaker 1>three meters or tin feet in length. Actually, I think

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<v Speaker 1>the UH the largest one ever I read was even

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<v Speaker 1>bigger than that. It was like tin point three feet

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<v Speaker 1>in length, and they can weigh over a hundred and

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<v Speaker 1>thirty kg or about three hundred pounds. Again, I think

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<v Speaker 1>I read that the biggest one ever measured was something

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<v Speaker 1>like three hundred and sixty pounds. They are venomous. They

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<v Speaker 1>deliver a bite that prevents the praise blood from clotting. However,

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<v Speaker 1>they do not primarily hunt live prey, because the majority

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<v Speaker 1>of their diet from scavenging dead or dying animals, though

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<v Speaker 1>of course they do also hunt, and when they hunt

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<v Speaker 1>live prey. Those prey species can be all kinds of things,

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<v Speaker 1>mainly dear, I think dear is the biggest one, but

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<v Speaker 1>also bovines, pigs, rodents, monkeys, goats, and they have on occasion,

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<v Speaker 1>as we said, attacked and killed humans. But this does

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<v Speaker 1>not make them our enemy. These are magnificent scaly beasts,

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<v Speaker 1>and they themselves are threatened in conservation status terms, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like you got the UH the i u c N classifications,

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<v Speaker 1>they are not yet considered endangered, but they are considered

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<v Speaker 1>vulnerable according to the w WF. They're only about six

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and left on Earth and only about three fifty

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<v Speaker 1>breeding females, and for that reason there are these conservation

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<v Speaker 1>and captivity breeding efforts going on around the world. But

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<v Speaker 1>so I want to tell a komodo dragon story. In

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand five, a female komodo dragon named Sung Guy

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<v Speaker 1>was living at the London Zoo and that year she

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<v Speaker 1>produced a clutch of twenty two eggs, four of which

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<v Speaker 1>were viable. But there was a problem. It had been

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<v Speaker 1>two and a half years since Sung Guy had been

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<v Speaker 1>anywhere near a male komodo dragon, so in order in

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<v Speaker 1>order to explain her laying these eggs, it would seem

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<v Speaker 1>she either had to somehow store sperm from a male

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<v Speaker 1>for over two years, which is technically possible sometimes in

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<v Speaker 1>reptiles there are like sperm storage methods that sometimes happen,

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<v Speaker 1>or she had performed parthenogenesis and her eggs hatch seven

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<v Speaker 1>and a half months after she laid them, and her

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<v Speaker 1>offspring seemed healthy. Uh. In two thousand six, a female

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<v Speaker 1>komodo dragon named Flora was living at the Chester Zoo

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<v Speaker 1>in the UK, and she was at the time one

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<v Speaker 1>of only two sexually mature female komotos in the whole

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<v Speaker 1>continent of Europe. As I said, you know, many zoos

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<v Speaker 1>around the world do these komodo dragon breeding programs to

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<v Speaker 1>try to help get the numbers back up, and at

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<v Speaker 1>the time Flora had not been breeding. In fact, she

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<v Speaker 1>had never even once been kept in an enclosure with

0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.840
<v Speaker 1>a male. Nevertheless, in two thousand six she produced a

0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.400
<v Speaker 1>clutch of twenty five eggs and eleven seemed viable at first.

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:37.439
<v Speaker 1>So what could explain this? I mean, you have to wonder,

0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.800
<v Speaker 1>was there like a male komodo dragon running loose in England,

0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.080
<v Speaker 1>secretly getting into the pins when nobody's watching. And if

0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:48.360
<v Speaker 1>we do entertain that possibility, we have to name that

0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.000
<v Speaker 1>English komodo dragon. What was his name? Oh, I don't know,

0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.640
<v Speaker 1>a rogue English komodo dragon. Uh, that'd be Rupert, right,

0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.079
<v Speaker 1>Rupert May or maybe kind of it's kind of a

0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:02.360
<v Speaker 1>Robin Hood type figure. It could be a Komoto Hood.

0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Robin Koma's not Clive, He's Clive, Okay, So Clive? Did

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Clive get in there or did something else happen. Turns

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.440
<v Speaker 1>out it was not clive. So there was a paper

0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:20.559
<v Speaker 1>published in Nature in two thousand and six by Watts, Bully, Sanderson, Boardman, CPI,

0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.840
<v Speaker 1>and Gibson called parthenogenesis and Komodo Dragons, and the authors

0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.559
<v Speaker 1>here performed genetic fingerprinting tests on the eggs of these dragons,

0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.760
<v Speaker 1>and they found that in both cases the offspring were

0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:36.880
<v Speaker 1>what are known as parthenogens, which are made entirely out

0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.000
<v Speaker 1>of their own mother's DNA, rather than through sexual recombination

0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.640
<v Speaker 1>with a mail. And in the case of Flora, this

0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.800
<v Speaker 1>was true virgin birth. But in both cases they had

0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.840
<v Speaker 1>created baby komodo dragons without the help of a mail.

0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 1>So the author's note that the offspring were homozy guess

0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.840
<v Speaker 1>at all loci on on their genome, but that they

0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:00.560
<v Speaker 1>were not identical clones of their mothers. So how would

0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.920
<v Speaker 1>that work? Well, you've got to think about what happens

0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 1>in sexual recombination of an animal like this. So the

0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:10.680
<v Speaker 1>mother contributes half of her genome and the father contributes

0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:13.800
<v Speaker 1>half of his genome, and they combine to produce a

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 1>mix of the two. And in this case the mother

0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.680
<v Speaker 1>still only contributed half of her genome. So in order

0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:22.440
<v Speaker 1>to produce an entire genome in the offspring without any

0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:27.680
<v Speaker 1>mail input, the mother's half set of chromosome simply doubled itself.

0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 1>So the offspring are not clones of the mother, their

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:34.520
<v Speaker 1>homozygous at all loci. So everywhere you look on their genome,

0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.720
<v Speaker 1>there's a double copy of the same allele, all made

0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 1>from half of the mother's genes. But so, how does

0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:42.800
<v Speaker 1>this happen? You know, I was wondering, what are the

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.560
<v Speaker 1>actual mechanics here? Uh, there's a there's a pretty good

0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.240
<v Speaker 1>summary in a Scientific American article from the time by

0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Philip y am Uh and yam rights quote. Evidently, in

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.520
<v Speaker 1>the case of these komotos, the doubling of the egg

0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 1>genes occurred when, in essence, another egg, rather than sperm,

0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 1>did the job of fertilization. Oh genesis, the biological process

0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:09.000
<v Speaker 1>of making an egg cell typically also yields a polar body,

0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.000
<v Speaker 1>a mini ovum of sorts containing a duplicate copy of

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:17.360
<v Speaker 1>egg d NA. Normally, this polar body shrivels up and disappears.

0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:20.960
<v Speaker 1>In the case of the komodos, though, polar bodies evidently

0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.880
<v Speaker 1>acted as sperm and turned over into embryos. So it's

0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 1>like the eggs cell had a little copy of itself

0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.040
<v Speaker 1>there with it that would normally shrivel up and go away,

0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.920
<v Speaker 1>but instead it pretended it was sperm and then fertilized

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:40.760
<v Speaker 1>its own copy another thing. After producing some offspring parthenogenically,

0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.320
<v Speaker 1>the one Komodo dragon, Sun Guy went on to produce

0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.160
<v Speaker 1>a normal clutch of eggs with a male named Raja.

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.320
<v Speaker 1>So the researchers also concluded that parthenogenesis is not a

0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:55.560
<v Speaker 1>fixed reproductive trait that lasts forever. In the Komodo dragons,

0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.400
<v Speaker 1>you can go back and forth. So, in fact, the

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 1>findings suggests that this is probably probably a form of

0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 1>reproductive plasticity. It's the ability to switch between sexual reproduction

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:11.120
<v Speaker 1>and asexual reproduction when mates are not available. Amazing. Yeah,

0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean you can see why this would be a

0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.120
<v Speaker 1>tremendous survival advantage. I mean, in particular, when you have

0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:19.920
<v Speaker 1>a case where a female is not exposed to males

0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:22.760
<v Speaker 1>at all for an extended period of time and yet

0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.800
<v Speaker 1>is capable of producing viable eggs. Like if there's no

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.400
<v Speaker 1>mail around this, this show still has to start one

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:31.480
<v Speaker 1>way or another. Yeah, Now there are some reasons you

0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:34.400
<v Speaker 1>might think that there are genetic drawbacks to that. In fact,

0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.800
<v Speaker 1>the author is right that there is a downside to

0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 1>this discovery. Quote, parthenogenesis presents a previously unrecognized problem for

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:46.440
<v Speaker 1>the genetic management of threatened populations. Why would this be well,

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.880
<v Speaker 1>in captive breeding programs designed to help commodo dragons build

0:16:50.880 --> 0:16:55.120
<v Speaker 1>their numbers back up, females are often kept isolated from males,

0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.160
<v Speaker 1>and males are only brought in occasionally for the obvious

0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.080
<v Speaker 1>reason there are good sense to do it like this,

0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.960
<v Speaker 1>like sometimes these animals are aggressive toward one another, and

0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.920
<v Speaker 1>you don't want them unnecessarily fighting or injuring one another,

0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.159
<v Speaker 1>that kind of thing. But this means that if you

0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.880
<v Speaker 1>keep females in all female environments with no mates, they

0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:18.560
<v Speaker 1>may spontaneously give birth to parthenogens. Now what's wrong with that?

0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.639
<v Speaker 1>Why Why wouldn't that just help increase their numbers even more? Well,

0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.600
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't quite work like that. The problem is parthenogenesis

0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:30.359
<v Speaker 1>reduces the fitness of the komodo dragon gene pool. The

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:36.479
<v Speaker 1>author's right quote oppressing concern with parthenogenesis is instantaneous homozygosity

0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.600
<v Speaker 1>of the entire genome, as this inbreeding carries an associated

0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 1>risk of reduced fitness and an increased probability of extinction. Uh.

0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:48.880
<v Speaker 1>And then there's another problem with the parthenogenesis, and it's

0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:53.080
<v Speaker 1>that it biases the sex ratio of the offspring. Uh.

0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:57.960
<v Speaker 1>The author's right quote. In Verona species, females have dissimilar

0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.840
<v Speaker 1>chromosomes Z and double you sort of like human chromosomes

0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 1>sex chromosomes X and Y, uh, continuing with their quote.

0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:10.760
<v Speaker 1>Whereas the combination Z Z produces males, so the parthenogenic

0:18:10.840 --> 0:18:16.200
<v Speaker 1>mechanism can produce only homozygous ZZ or w W individuals

0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:21.120
<v Speaker 1>and therefore no females. So the parthenogenesis in the Komodo dragons,

0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.720
<v Speaker 1>because of the way their sex cells work, they can

0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.639
<v Speaker 1>only make male offspring. Uh. It's sort of the opposite

0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 1>of the way like human sex chromosomes work, that males

0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.280
<v Speaker 1>have an x Y chromosome and females in humans have

0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:37.239
<v Speaker 1>an x X chromosome. In the dragons, it's the other

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.679
<v Speaker 1>way around. The males have the same two sex chromosomes

0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:43.919
<v Speaker 1>and the females have the two different sex chromosomes. If

0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.119
<v Speaker 1>you can only make a duplicate copy, you can only

0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.760
<v Speaker 1>make new male dragons. Yeah, and this is important to

0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.480
<v Speaker 1>keep in mind as we move forward, because we're going

0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 1>to see, um, you know, the exact chromosome. All situation

0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.239
<v Speaker 1>is going to play into what kind of offspring are

0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:03.199
<v Speaker 1>produced by a given species density for parthenogenesis. Yes, so

0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.840
<v Speaker 1>back to that question about whether this is uh, this

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:08.000
<v Speaker 1>is useful in the wild. It does seem like it's

0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.199
<v Speaker 1>probably an adaptation right for the reason you mentioned earlier.

0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:16.560
<v Speaker 1>Assume a wild female Kommoto dragon finds herself isolated on

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.320
<v Speaker 1>an island environment. Maybe she gets washed up somewhere after

0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:24.240
<v Speaker 1>a storm. She could help her genes survive by parthenogenetically

0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.639
<v Speaker 1>producing a clutch of males with which to mate and

0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:31.520
<v Speaker 1>establish a new colony genetically. This is not ideal, but

0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 1>it's better than nothing, But it's not good for the

0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.720
<v Speaker 1>dragon populations that are you know, trying to be sustained

0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.119
<v Speaker 1>right now, for the females to be laying clutches exclusively

0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.040
<v Speaker 1>of essentially inbred males. This may be better than nothing

0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.159
<v Speaker 1>in the wild when there are no males present, like

0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:51.119
<v Speaker 1>we said, but it actually interferes with the breeding programs

0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.480
<v Speaker 1>that conservationists are using to help like replenish the species.

0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:58.800
<v Speaker 1>So this leads to the idea that hey, maybe we

0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.159
<v Speaker 1>should be careful about keeping female dragons in isolation in

0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.320
<v Speaker 1>captivity because when there's no mail around, this can happen

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.520
<v Speaker 1>and it's not actually what's best for the species if

0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 1>we can help it. Yeah, that's fascinating because it's easy

0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:12.840
<v Speaker 1>to just on the surface of things think, yeah, I

0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.360
<v Speaker 1>go way to go. Commoto dragons just reproduce whether there's

0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.200
<v Speaker 1>a mail around or not. But well, it is better

0:20:18.200 --> 0:20:20.760
<v Speaker 1>than nothing probably. I mean, if there literally is no

0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.080
<v Speaker 1>mail to reproduce with, this makes sense to do. But

0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:26.280
<v Speaker 1>the problem is in these cases it's not actually that

0:20:26.359 --> 0:20:28.520
<v Speaker 1>there's no male, it's just there's no mail right now.

0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:31.439
<v Speaker 1>And by the way, it does appear that other female

0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.439
<v Speaker 1>Commodo dragons in captivity have shown this same same phenomenon

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.320
<v Speaker 1>since the initial batch of observations. For example, it was

0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:42.879
<v Speaker 1>reported in two thousand and eight that healthy male dragons

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:46.400
<v Speaker 1>hatched at the Sedgewick County Zoo in Wichita, Kansas from

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.320
<v Speaker 1>a female who had not made it with a male.

0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:51.639
<v Speaker 1>But Commodo dragons are certainly not the only reptiles that

0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:56.760
<v Speaker 1>exhibit parthenogenesis. Some lizards are even obligate parthenogens that you

0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 1>mentioned earlier, the ones that have no choice, like the

0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.640
<v Speaker 1>hybrid new male Mexico whiptail lizard. Uh, this is an

0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:07.360
<v Speaker 1>all female species and there's no sexual reproduction whatsoever. Or well, actually,

0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.400
<v Speaker 1>what is true is that there is no sexual fertilization

0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.160
<v Speaker 1>there uh, because in fact, these lizards have been observed

0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 1>to perform a series of same sex female courtship and

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:21.000
<v Speaker 1>mating rituals, the biological function of which is an interesting

0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.840
<v Speaker 1>subject that we could return to in the future. Uh.

0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:25.840
<v Speaker 1>And I guess it's just a reminder that even in

0:21:25.880 --> 0:21:28.639
<v Speaker 1>the animal world, the fact that you don't have to

0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.240
<v Speaker 1>have sexual fertilization doesn't mean that there's not sexual behavior.

0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:33.640
<v Speaker 1>All right. On that note, we're gonna take a quick

0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:35.919
<v Speaker 1>break and we come back. We'll get into another reptilian

0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:42.800
<v Speaker 1>species that exhibits virgin birth. Thank alright, we're back. So

0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:46.520
<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about komodo dragons. We mentioned lizards reptiles

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:51.040
<v Speaker 1>that exhibit parthenogenesis. Snakes are another great source of examples

0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:54.720
<v Speaker 1>of parthenogenesis. There is at least one species of snake

0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:58.560
<v Speaker 1>called Indo tie flops brahminus, also known as the Brahminy

0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.880
<v Speaker 1>blind snake, which appears to be an obligate parthenogen. It's

0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 1>a burrowing blind snake, so you'll find it, you know,

0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.320
<v Speaker 1>down underneath the soil and rotten wood and leaf litter

0:22:09.400 --> 0:22:12.240
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that. It's found naturally in parts of

0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:15.400
<v Speaker 1>Africa and Asia, though it has been introduced in other places,

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:17.720
<v Speaker 1>and as far as we know, all members of this

0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:22.080
<v Speaker 1>species are female and they reproduce completely without sex. However,

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.400
<v Speaker 1>plenty of other snake species have been shown to exhibit

0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.280
<v Speaker 1>facultative parthenogenesis, like the Komodo dragons. It appears to be

0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.040
<v Speaker 1>some kind of adaptation. Now, apparently, for a while this

0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.920
<v Speaker 1>had only been observed in captive snakes that we're living in,

0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:39.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, in tanks or in zoos or something like that,

0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.320
<v Speaker 1>so it was believed to be some sort of captive syndrome.

0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:47.720
<v Speaker 1>But more recently it appears that facultative parthenogenesis has been

0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.199
<v Speaker 1>observed in wild snakes, sometimes even when males are present.

0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:57.120
<v Speaker 1>Just to cite one example by Booth, Smith, Eskridge, Hass, Mendelssohn,

0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:02.400
<v Speaker 1>and Shoit, facultative parthenogenesis discovered in wild vertebrates in Biology

0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.760
<v Speaker 1>Letters in two thousand and twelve. These researchers used quote

0:23:05.800 --> 0:23:11.520
<v Speaker 1>micro satellite DNA genotyping and litter characteristics to determine that

0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:16.000
<v Speaker 1>there was evidence of facultative parthenergenesis in snakes in the

0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.959
<v Speaker 1>wild in populations of wild North American pit viper snakes

0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.199
<v Speaker 1>like the copper head and the cotton mouth. So the

0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.960
<v Speaker 1>world may may yet be full of a sexually reproducing

0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.240
<v Speaker 1>copper head queens. Well, that's amazing. Now we've so far

0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 1>we've talked about two different reptile species. It's I think

0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:36.320
<v Speaker 1>it's time to move on to the birds, and not

0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.000
<v Speaker 1>just any bird, but a bird that we've discussed a

0:23:39.000 --> 0:23:41.880
<v Speaker 1>fair amount on stuff to blow your mind, especially given

0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.440
<v Speaker 1>that we've never devoted and have we devoted an entire

0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:47.480
<v Speaker 1>episode to them before? Did we do an episode on

0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:51.440
<v Speaker 1>the turkey? No, I think we've mostly talked about turkeys

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:55.560
<v Speaker 1>in the context of Benjamin Franklin and electrocuting them. Yes. Yeah,

0:23:55.600 --> 0:23:57.600
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the main reason they keep coming up,

0:23:57.720 --> 0:24:01.000
<v Speaker 1>So that's come up more than once. Yeah, Well, we're

0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.639
<v Speaker 1>bringing up turkeys again because parthenogenesis has been observed in

0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:08.880
<v Speaker 1>several bird species, though it usually results in non viable

0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.760
<v Speaker 1>embryos that never become adults, and the turkey is one

0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:18.359
<v Speaker 1>of the one of them. Reports of turkeys exhibiting virgin births.

0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.920
<v Speaker 1>These begin to roll in, especially in the eighteen hundreds,

0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:22.879
<v Speaker 1>and it received a fair amount of attention in the

0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:28.880
<v Speaker 1>decades to follow. Breeders were particularly interested because potential pitfalls aside,

0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.919
<v Speaker 1>and we've discussed what those those are regarding, you know,

0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 1>stagnant gene pools and all the idea. They really like

0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.080
<v Speaker 1>the idea of one prize turkey creating another prize turkey

0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.520
<v Speaker 1>without mightying the genetics horror. Yeah, but you know, we

0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.520
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about the poultry industry here, so the shadowy

0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:48.520
<v Speaker 1>mechanical priests of poultry science. So according to studies in

0:24:48.560 --> 0:24:52.960
<v Speaker 1>the seventies and nineties, in particular, thirty two tot of

0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:57.080
<v Speaker 1>infertile eggs may initiate development, but most embryos die at

0:24:57.119 --> 0:25:00.520
<v Speaker 1>an early stage. Parthener genesis has also been observed in

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:04.919
<v Speaker 1>domestic hens, Chinese painted quails, and the zebra finch. For

0:25:05.000 --> 0:25:08.280
<v Speaker 1>the turkey, however, it's only going to result in a

0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:12.879
<v Speaker 1>viable offspring in extreme situations, and when it does result

0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:16.560
<v Speaker 1>in an actual hatchling, the turkey is always male due

0:25:16.560 --> 0:25:20.919
<v Speaker 1>to sex chromo chromosome dominance. Now I was looking around

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:23.760
<v Speaker 1>for some more information about this, and I realized, well,

0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:27.200
<v Speaker 1>the best place to look is probably the world of

0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:30.520
<v Speaker 1>of of Agricultural sciences and animal sciences. And indeed I

0:25:30.560 --> 0:25:34.520
<v Speaker 1>found a wonderful overview of this from Thomas F. Savage, PhD,

0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Professor and head advisor at the Department of Animal Sciences,

0:25:37.960 --> 0:25:42.399
<v Speaker 1>Oregon State University in Corvallis, and he points out that

0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 1>the parthenogenesis and turkeys, it all comes down to environmental

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:49.960
<v Speaker 1>and genetic factors. So, first of all, the environmental factors

0:25:49.960 --> 0:25:53.200
<v Speaker 1>that the outlines here age, he says, there's a higher

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:56.080
<v Speaker 1>rate in younger hens, and then and then there's also

0:25:56.240 --> 0:26:00.600
<v Speaker 1>a viral influence here, there's an increased occurrent and turkey

0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:07.040
<v Speaker 1>hens exposed to certain diseases such as Newcastle disease, foul pox, etcetera. Also,

0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:10.160
<v Speaker 1>it can be affected by what you're feeding them. There

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:14.719
<v Speaker 1>are certain additives used to enhance reproductive efficiency that can

0:26:14.760 --> 0:26:21.840
<v Speaker 1>stimulate parthenogenic development, specifically the yeast culture UH sacro mices

0:26:22.119 --> 0:26:27.040
<v Speaker 1>sera visa. And then also inactivated or I radiated sperm.

0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.280
<v Speaker 1>In experiments, they found that if they if they had

0:26:30.320 --> 0:26:33.199
<v Speaker 1>this irradiated sperm, it was unable to contribute genetically, but

0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:37.520
<v Speaker 1>it could lead to a higher rate of parthenogenesis. Oh,

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:41.720
<v Speaker 1>because it could like um stimulate the egg to start dividing,

0:26:41.760 --> 0:26:44.760
<v Speaker 1>but it wouldn't actually provide genetic material. Yeah, that's my

0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:48.960
<v Speaker 1>understanding of it. Also, temperature, even elevated pre incubation edge

0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:51.879
<v Speaker 1>egg storage temperatures can play play a role and in

0:26:51.920 --> 0:26:53.840
<v Speaker 1>all these you know, and we're talking about increasing the

0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:58.560
<v Speaker 1>likelihood of it occurring, not necessarily like a trigger switch exactly.

0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:02.920
<v Speaker 1>And then their genetic aspects as well. Uh, some genetic

0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:06.120
<v Speaker 1>strains just have a predisposition for it, and you can

0:27:06.240 --> 0:27:09.399
<v Speaker 1>actually increase the chances via genetic selection. And this was

0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:13.400
<v Speaker 1>proved out in a nineteen five study by this guy Olsen,

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:16.600
<v Speaker 1>who when you look at he's the turkey parthener genesis.

0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:18.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah he is. It's like it's you look at who

0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 1>has done research about it, and it'll be you know,

0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:25.800
<v Speaker 1>various names and then like like twenty something different search

0:27:25.840 --> 0:27:28.760
<v Speaker 1>results for this awesome guy. All right, so that's turkeys

0:27:28.920 --> 0:27:31.399
<v Speaker 1>and uh and imagined some of you out there listening

0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.760
<v Speaker 1>to this podcast have some experience with turkeys or at

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.880
<v Speaker 1>least hens um. Maybe you can write in and tell

0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.119
<v Speaker 1>us give us your take. On Parthener genesis in the

0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Turkey world. Now, not to downplay the dangers of turkeys,

0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:45.640
<v Speaker 1>but I think we should go to a little bit

0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:50.280
<v Speaker 1>of a wilder territory. Can you give me a thrill ride, Robert. Yeah,

0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:54.080
<v Speaker 1>let's talk about parthener genesis in sharks. And also we'll

0:27:54.080 --> 0:27:56.720
<v Speaker 1>get into raise a little bit. Uh. This is actually

0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:00.000
<v Speaker 1>I believe this is a topic that that Mara hart Um,

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:02.120
<v Speaker 1>who wrote Sex in the Sea, touched on a little

0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:04.719
<v Speaker 1>bit when she appeared on the program in the past. Uh.

0:28:04.720 --> 0:28:07.199
<v Speaker 1>And I'm certainly going to cite her book Sex in

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 1>the c because it is a tremendous book about uh,

0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:14.000
<v Speaker 1>the wild world of reproduction in in Earth's oceans. But yes,

0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:16.919
<v Speaker 1>as it happens, sharks have been observed to engage in

0:28:17.200 --> 0:28:22.080
<v Speaker 1>facultative parthenogenesis. It's it's not obligatory, and it creates offspring

0:28:22.119 --> 0:28:25.600
<v Speaker 1>genetically distinct from the mother or sibling species, so these

0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.760
<v Speaker 1>are not outright clones. Uh. This was first observed in

0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:32.320
<v Speaker 1>sharks back in two thousand seven when Uh, studied by

0:28:32.320 --> 0:28:35.760
<v Speaker 1>a Chapman at All, conducted tests on bonnet head sharks

0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:39.440
<v Speaker 1>born in captivity. Um. The female in this Listnari had

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:42.479
<v Speaker 1>been isolated for from males for more than three years,

0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:44.440
<v Speaker 1>and there was so and it turned out that they

0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:47.120
<v Speaker 1>were able to produce without any male DNA. Also, in

0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:49.920
<v Speaker 1>two thousand seven, Chapman and his team found evidence of

0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:53.960
<v Speaker 1>parthenogenesis in female black tip sharks. These in captivity for

0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:57.560
<v Speaker 1>nine years without access to males, and a female black

0:28:57.600 --> 0:29:00.440
<v Speaker 1>tip what happened is it died in captivity with a

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:04.960
<v Speaker 1>near term embryo inside it. Zebra sharks and white spotted

0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:08.719
<v Speaker 1>sharks shark cases have also been confirmed UH and UH.

0:29:08.840 --> 0:29:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Chapman and his team have also found genetic evidence for

0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:15.360
<v Speaker 1>hammerhead virgin birth as well. So the ability seems like

0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it might be pretty common actually, from big sharks to

0:29:18.440 --> 0:29:21.240
<v Speaker 1>a little sharks, from egg layers to lie birthers. But

0:29:21.320 --> 0:29:23.320
<v Speaker 1>does it happen in the wild or is it just

0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:25.720
<v Speaker 1>something that occurs in captivity? This is in this we're

0:29:25.760 --> 0:29:28.680
<v Speaker 1>encountering a similar situation that we have with the study

0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:31.360
<v Speaker 1>of commodo dragons, like is this is this something that

0:29:31.440 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 1>is actually occurring in the wild, and if so, how

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.840
<v Speaker 1>can we study it? It's actually pretty hard to study

0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.240
<v Speaker 1>in the wild, though, because to do so you really

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:41.440
<v Speaker 1>need to look at the DNA of of the mother.

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:43.560
<v Speaker 1>You need to look at the DNA of the offspring.

0:29:43.880 --> 0:29:46.800
<v Speaker 1>And the thing about shark uh, the world of shark

0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:51.200
<v Speaker 1>parents is that they're pretty much donezo after the birth.

0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:53.680
<v Speaker 1>You know, the the parents are not going to hang

0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:59.120
<v Speaker 1>around and look after the baby. Sharks not big into nurturing, right, Yeah. Now,

0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:03.080
<v Speaker 1>Chapman and other re searchers, they have found examples of

0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:07.520
<v Speaker 1>parthenogenesis in the critically endangered small tooth sawfish, which is

0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.640
<v Speaker 1>threatened by over fishing and the loss of mangrove habitats.

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:13.160
<v Speaker 1>Now it's technically a ray, it's not a shark, but

0:30:13.240 --> 0:30:15.360
<v Speaker 1>it winds up in shark fin soup a lot. According

0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:18.160
<v Speaker 1>to mar j Hart in her book Sex and the Sea,

0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:21.920
<v Speaker 1>this uh, this creature's population has declined, she says, more

0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 1>than since the nineteen sixties. Now, meanwhile, we have Dr

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:31.520
<v Speaker 1>Jim gel Sliter who has conducted test using an ultrasound

0:30:31.560 --> 0:30:35.360
<v Speaker 1>one which which he described he himself describes as looking

0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.440
<v Speaker 1>like a Ghostbusters proton pack. It's a pretty expensive piece

0:30:38.440 --> 0:30:41.040
<v Speaker 1>of equipment. But the but that's how they can bring

0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:43.120
<v Speaker 1>it out of the field, because it's quite a production

0:30:43.120 --> 0:30:44.440
<v Speaker 1>they have to go through here, they have to they

0:30:44.440 --> 0:30:46.400
<v Speaker 1>have to catch the ray, they have to keep invited

0:30:46.640 --> 0:30:48.360
<v Speaker 1>by the side of the boat, and then they have

0:30:48.520 --> 0:30:51.520
<v Speaker 1>to uh, you know, use the wand on it to

0:30:51.680 --> 0:30:55.280
<v Speaker 1>see what's going on inside it. Um. What do they

0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:57.560
<v Speaker 1>find with that wand? Well, the thing is that they

0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:02.800
<v Speaker 1>have confirmed parthenogenesis. Uh. Now uh, it's a There are

0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:04.640
<v Speaker 1>a couple of things that should know here. One is

0:31:04.680 --> 0:31:09.440
<v Speaker 1>that investigations regarding sharks and rays they can be complicated

0:31:09.440 --> 0:31:14.160
<v Speaker 1>for the same reason that like the commodo dragon situation

0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:17.560
<v Speaker 1>is complicated uh, in that you have to ask yourself,

0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:20.520
<v Speaker 1>well are they storing sperm from a previous encounter um

0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:22.720
<v Speaker 1>and And that can sometimes be the case with sharks

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:26.160
<v Speaker 1>and rays um. But in the case of the sawfish,

0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:29.280
<v Speaker 1>this is an example where this amazing adaptation could prove

0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:31.560
<v Speaker 1>vital and helping them bounce back from the brink of

0:31:31.600 --> 0:31:35.120
<v Speaker 1>extinction while new protections are in place, because there at

0:31:35.120 --> 0:31:38.560
<v Speaker 1>a point now where again they're threatened by by overfishing

0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:41.320
<v Speaker 1>and habitat loss, but certain legal protections that have been

0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:45.080
<v Speaker 1>put in place, and so parthenogenesis could be the tool

0:31:45.160 --> 0:31:48.720
<v Speaker 1>that helps them reach a sustainable level while those protections

0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 1>are in place. However, over the generations it's you know,

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.840
<v Speaker 1>likely gonna uh you know, a negatively impact the species

0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:58.200
<v Speaker 1>hopes for survival as well. So again it's that's that's

0:31:58.200 --> 0:32:01.320
<v Speaker 1>similar scenario with the komodo dragon. It's better than nothing,

0:32:01.760 --> 0:32:05.480
<v Speaker 1>but it is also potentially genetically devastating. So the reasons

0:32:05.480 --> 0:32:08.479
<v Speaker 1>would be what that it limits genetic diversity essentially it's

0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:11.600
<v Speaker 1>similar to inbreeding, and that it produces sex bias in

0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:14.680
<v Speaker 1>the offspring. In this case, they would be almost always

0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:18.720
<v Speaker 1>female offspring. Yes, I believe so, the I mean think

0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:20.440
<v Speaker 1>of it, It would just be it would be terrible

0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:23.720
<v Speaker 1>when your your species bounces back from the brink of

0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:26.640
<v Speaker 1>of of extermination and you're able to do so via

0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 1>this miraculous virgin birth, but then some sort of disease

0:32:30.800 --> 0:32:32.720
<v Speaker 1>just wipes all of you out because you lack the

0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:36.080
<v Speaker 1>genetic diversity to survive it. And this is actually outside

0:32:36.080 --> 0:32:37.920
<v Speaker 1>of the world of partheno genesis. This is something that

0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:41.200
<v Speaker 1>is encountered to in efforts to restore certain species to

0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:45.440
<v Speaker 1>the wild, Like if a population becomes uh too shallow,

0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.440
<v Speaker 1>then you know you're you're not going to have the

0:32:48.480 --> 0:32:52.240
<v Speaker 1>genetic diversity to really um have a have has a

0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:55.840
<v Speaker 1>robust a genetic presence for the species. Yeah, but when

0:32:55.880 --> 0:32:58.240
<v Speaker 1>you're when you're that low as a species, you're you're

0:32:58.240 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 1>in a tough situation anyway. So best of luck to

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.400
<v Speaker 1>the parthenogens. All right, we want that note. We're gonna

0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:05.600
<v Speaker 1>take one more break when we come back. We're gonna

0:33:05.640 --> 0:33:12.640
<v Speaker 1>ask the question, what about parthenogenesis in mammals than alright,

0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:17.320
<v Speaker 1>we're back. So we've been discussing parthenogenesis in sharks and

0:33:17.520 --> 0:33:21.840
<v Speaker 1>reptiles and birds. Uh. One thing that is certainly true

0:33:22.160 --> 0:33:24.920
<v Speaker 1>is that you're going to find way fewer examples of

0:33:24.960 --> 0:33:27.880
<v Speaker 1>this in mammals. In fact, if what I've read is correct,

0:33:28.240 --> 0:33:33.720
<v Speaker 1>there are no known wild examples of parthenogenesis in mammals.

0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 1>There have been examples that have been induced under synthetic

0:33:38.680 --> 0:33:41.880
<v Speaker 1>lab conditions, but we've never found an example out in

0:33:41.920 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 1>the world that's correct. That's that's what I was finding

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:48.800
<v Speaker 1>as well. Um, the really the only uh, the million

0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:52.160
<v Speaker 1>examples that we run across our ones in human created

0:33:52.480 --> 0:33:56.240
<v Speaker 1>uh myths and legends and religious stories. So I was

0:33:56.320 --> 0:34:00.720
<v Speaker 1>reading an article titled parthenogenesis, Birth of a new lineage

0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:05.080
<v Speaker 1>or Reproductive accident by Casper J. Vander Koo from the

0:34:05.160 --> 0:34:10.240
<v Speaker 1>University of Groningen and Tanja Schwander, and this was published

0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:13.240
<v Speaker 1>in Current Biology in two thousand fifteen. And the authors

0:34:13.400 --> 0:34:17.440
<v Speaker 1>they make an interesting choice, an entertaining choice in directly

0:34:17.440 --> 0:34:20.360
<v Speaker 1>approaching the birth of Jesus Christ. Oh yeah, that's a

0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:24.440
<v Speaker 1>dangerous move. And Algy I was I was hesitant to

0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:28.879
<v Speaker 1>incorporate too much Nativity story into this episode, but then

0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:32.520
<v Speaker 1>the scientists did it, so I can only follow them.

0:34:32.680 --> 0:34:36.000
<v Speaker 1>In fact, I want to read a quote from this paper. Quote.

0:34:36.120 --> 0:34:40.000
<v Speaker 1>This reference to parthenogenesis, and by this reference is referring

0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:44.440
<v Speaker 1>to the Nativity story is unusual in two ways. First,

0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:48.480
<v Speaker 1>it is the only account of quote unquote natural parthenogenesis

0:34:48.520 --> 0:34:51.800
<v Speaker 1>in a mammal. Mammals are believed to be completely unable

0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:55.120
<v Speaker 1>to report to reproduce via parthenogenesis because of a number

0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:59.160
<v Speaker 1>of developmental and genetic constraints. Second, while the blessed Virgin

0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:02.799
<v Speaker 1>Mary might have been able to conceive a daughter via parthenogenesis,

0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:06.080
<v Speaker 1>the conception of a son is highly unlikely, as male

0:35:06.160 --> 0:35:10.359
<v Speaker 1>sex and humans is determined by genes on the Y chromosome. Mary,

0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.640
<v Speaker 1>as a woman, could not have transmitted any hy chromosomes

0:35:13.640 --> 0:35:17.799
<v Speaker 1>to her offspring. In contrast to humans, parthenogenetic production of

0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:22.799
<v Speaker 1>sons is expected in species with other types of sex determination. Yeah,

0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:25.520
<v Speaker 1>so that's dealing with the opposite of the komodo dragons

0:35:25.520 --> 0:35:28.200
<v Speaker 1>issue we talked about earlier. Right now, I have to

0:35:28.239 --> 0:35:31.560
<v Speaker 1>say it. I can't help but think of certain late

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:37.080
<v Speaker 1>medieval traditions in which Christ is illustrated or described in

0:35:37.160 --> 0:35:41.160
<v Speaker 1>terms of feminine qualities. Um. And then this is based

0:35:41.160 --> 0:35:43.120
<v Speaker 1>in the idea that it's, you know, to an expression

0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>of the feminine characteristics of Christ nature, and of course

0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:48.600
<v Speaker 1>has nothing to do with genetics or even any sort

0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:53.520
<v Speaker 1>of egalitarian ideal. But yet I can't help but think

0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:56.600
<v Speaker 1>about that. And when we're thinking about well, uh, yes,

0:35:56.680 --> 0:36:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Mary could have genetically speaking, had this virgin offspring, but

0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:02.560
<v Speaker 1>it would have had to have been a female. Now

0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:04.759
<v Speaker 1>I assume that they are just having a little bit

0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:08.279
<v Speaker 1>of fun with the subject. They're not like trying to say,

0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:11.360
<v Speaker 1>how can we explain the story of Jesus birth. Let's

0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.239
<v Speaker 1>try to go to the science of parthenogenesis. I feel

0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:16.520
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like, uh, in the same way that

0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.640
<v Speaker 1>we talked about papers about hemorrhoids. They feel that they

0:36:19.920 --> 0:36:22.960
<v Speaker 1>just have to mention the the the the ark of

0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:24.560
<v Speaker 1>the Covenant, just because you can get a little bit

0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 1>of Bible flavoring in there. It's kind of hard to

0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 1>resist incorporating this, the story of the birth of the

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:35.759
<v Speaker 1>Christ Child into your paper on genetics and parthenogenesis. Yes,

0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:38.520
<v Speaker 1>I can certainly imagine that temptation. But so so they're

0:36:38.560 --> 0:36:41.319
<v Speaker 1>not actually saying, this story is a historical record and

0:36:41.360 --> 0:36:44.919
<v Speaker 1>we're going to explain how it happened biologic correct um.

0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:46.960
<v Speaker 1>So you know, they point out a lot of what

0:36:47.000 --> 0:36:50.040
<v Speaker 1>we've been talking about already. That male producing parthener genesis

0:36:50.160 --> 0:36:54.360
<v Speaker 1>is rare, female producing parthenogenesis is widespread and mostly obligate,

0:36:54.680 --> 0:36:58.080
<v Speaker 1>though only a few examples invertebrates, and there are no

0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 1>examples among mammals. And then is this whole issue with

0:37:01.280 --> 0:37:04.520
<v Speaker 1>the female or the or the male offspring? They say

0:37:04.560 --> 0:37:07.719
<v Speaker 1>that accidental parthenogenesis is the method that can produce male

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.440
<v Speaker 1>offspring due to the way that the chromosomes come together.

0:37:11.200 --> 0:37:14.320
<v Speaker 1>But that quote, the developmental and genetic constraints in humans

0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:17.080
<v Speaker 1>and other mammals would most likely prevent the emergence of

0:37:17.120 --> 0:37:21.279
<v Speaker 1>adaptive parthenogenesis in natural populations. Well, I do think it's

0:37:21.320 --> 0:37:26.480
<v Speaker 1>interesting they say, most likely. I wonder exactly how unlikely,

0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:30.920
<v Speaker 1>it is, so could parthenogenesis in in mammals like humans?

0:37:31.440 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Is that essentially impossible or just so unlikely we wouldn't

0:37:35.920 --> 0:37:38.399
<v Speaker 1>expect to see it? Well and true? And then also

0:37:38.400 --> 0:37:40.279
<v Speaker 1>the question is like what kind of time frame we're

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:43.680
<v Speaker 1>talking about. Are we talking about tomorrow, our next year

0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:46.360
<v Speaker 1>or hundred years from now? Are we looking at at

0:37:46.480 --> 0:37:49.719
<v Speaker 1>at a longer history for our species? Wouldn't expect to

0:37:49.760 --> 0:37:53.080
<v Speaker 1>see it over a population of X number? Right, But

0:37:53.120 --> 0:37:56.680
<v Speaker 1>then again, it's we're going beyond mere humans here, right,

0:37:56.680 --> 0:37:59.480
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about mammals in general. And so if we

0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:04.200
<v Speaker 1>have no examples from the mammalian world, uh that that

0:38:04.200 --> 0:38:07.520
<v Speaker 1>that have presented themselves or have survived to present themselves

0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 1>uh to scientists today, then it does it does make

0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.279
<v Speaker 1>you wonder how many mammals other than humans could there be?

0:38:14.480 --> 0:38:17.720
<v Speaker 1>What you've got, dogs, you got rats, Uh, that's about

0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:20.239
<v Speaker 1>it in there, well, all the all the bat species.

0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:23.240
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you have considerable member species

0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:25.360
<v Speaker 1>to consider here, but yeah, there if none of them

0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:29.040
<v Speaker 1>are presenting an example of partheno genesis, then um, I

0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:32.280
<v Speaker 1>don't know, it seems like a pretty safe bed alright.

0:38:32.360 --> 0:38:36.640
<v Speaker 1>So there you have it, parthenogenesis, virgin birth, a little

0:38:36.640 --> 0:38:39.160
<v Speaker 1>bit of holiday full air thrown in there. Uh, And

0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:42.480
<v Speaker 1>I think just the big take home is that, as always,

0:38:42.520 --> 0:38:45.800
<v Speaker 1>when we're looking at something that is miraculous to humans,

0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:48.719
<v Speaker 1>take it out to the animal world, and generally you're

0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:51.719
<v Speaker 1>gonna find that it's actually no big deal. There's there's

0:38:51.800 --> 0:38:54.800
<v Speaker 1>much weirder stuff going on, and plenty of if examples

0:38:54.800 --> 0:38:58.920
<v Speaker 1>of virgin birth going on. Uh, certainly in the invertebrate world,

0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:00.880
<v Speaker 1>but then also in the verse of your world as well.

0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:04.319
<v Speaker 1>It tends to remain the case that no myth, no

0:39:04.640 --> 0:39:08.560
<v Speaker 1>magical story, no monster movie, no sci fi special can

0:39:08.600 --> 0:39:11.759
<v Speaker 1>come up with anything as weird as nature. All right,

0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:13.799
<v Speaker 1>So hey, as always, if you want to check out

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0:40:17.760 --> 0:40:21.520
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