Speaker 1: The guys from Ping. They've kind of showed me how
Speaker 1: much the equipment matters. I just love that I can
Speaker 1: hit any shot I kind of want.
Speaker 2: We're gonna be able to tell some fun stories about
Speaker 2: what goes on here to help golfers play better golf.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Pink Proving Grounds Podcast.
Speaker 4: I'm Shane Bacon.
Speaker 3: That is Marty Jertsen, who apparently maybe just got a haircut,
Speaker 3: looks really high and tight right now.
Speaker 2: My friend who summertime in Phoenix been been rough Shane,
Speaker 2: So yeah, you gotta keep it short in the summertime.
Speaker 4: No reason to be messing with it. We got exciting
Speaker 4: guests today.
Speaker 3: A man that is also in a worn climate right now,
Speaker 3: Joseph Mayo joining us, instructor of an instructor for discovery
Speaker 3: properties based out of the summit in Las Vegas. And
Speaker 3: another of a person much smarter than I am. So Joseph,
Speaker 3: we appreciate you taking a little.
Speaker 4: Bit of time.
Speaker 3: And I was reading that you saw a track man
Speaker 3: for the first time and it kind of opened up
Speaker 3: your brain to this new world and that's how you
Speaker 3: got back into golf. Can you take us back to
Speaker 3: that moment when you first saw track Man and how
Speaker 3: it kind of opened up this world that is now
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and first of all, thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I got out of golf and around
Speaker 1: two thousand because I was so frustrated that, you know,
Speaker 1: there was no way to measure anything, there was no
Speaker 1: way to answer questions, there was no way to validate anything.
Speaker 1: And I got out of golf and I thought nothing
Speaker 1: of it. I never thought that I would be a
Speaker 1: part of golf again. And I can't remember exactly where
Speaker 1: we were, but my father was a cancer patient, still is,
Speaker 1: and we were in a physicians off at some point
Speaker 1: and I picked up some type of a golfing magazine,
Speaker 1: don't remember what it was, and I heard about TrackMan
Speaker 1: to Opper Radar, and that really really made me go, Wow,
Speaker 1: maybe this is what I've been looking for. There was
Speaker 1: a doctor and a caesiologist here in Las Vegas that
Speaker 1: knew me and liked me, and he believed in my abilities.
Speaker 1: I don't know why, but he did. And he said, hey,
Speaker 1: let's get a track Man. I'm like, wow, sure, let's
Speaker 1: go ahead and do that. I've got five hundred bucks
Speaker 1: in my checking account, so let's go ahead and get one.
Speaker 1: There were twenty six thousand dollars and we got that thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, at that time, there are no there's
Speaker 1: no Internet forums, there's no user's manual. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: on your own. It's sink or swim. So I just
Speaker 1: plopped that bad boy down and I just let everybody
Speaker 1: come hit shots for me. And I started seeing all
Speaker 1: these patterns and began putting together ball flight, if you will.
Speaker 1: And I started to notice that, you know, no disrespect
Speaker 1: to those of the past, but I began to see
Speaker 1: that what we believe to be true was not true.
Speaker 1: And the golf ball did not start on the club path.
Speaker 1: It started, you know, as you guys know, basically where
Speaker 1: the face is pointed, not one hundred percent, but basically.
Speaker 1: And I took that and I started putting videos on
Speaker 1: the internet, I don't know, twenty ten and some people
Speaker 1: saw those videos. Brant Waite, you guys know, PJ tour
Speaker 1: player saw it, and we developed a friendship and literally
Speaker 1: it changed my life.
Speaker 2: Joe, I think you're kind of like a pioneer. You're
Speaker 2: you're you're the early adopter of track man using three D.
Speaker 2: You know, I think I'm a PJ of America member.
Speaker 2: Now I know the PGA of America knows that they
Speaker 2: had to they have to level up their ballfly laws,
Speaker 2: so to speak, and everything that was taught there. You've
Speaker 2: influenced a lot of folks in using you know, kind
Speaker 2: of bringing in three D problem solving. You know, you've
Speaker 2: kind of taken that scientific method and applied it to golf.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the things you've inspired so
Speaker 2: many not only helped so many golfers, but inspired a
Speaker 2: lot of golf teachers to open their eyes to that.
Speaker 2: So I feel like you've reached a lot of folks.
Speaker 2: Who were some of the other teachers. I know you
Speaker 2: just talked about figuring out a lot of this on
Speaker 2: your own because there was no instruction, Manuel, But who
Speaker 2: are some of the teachers, PhDs, academics, whoever, Because you
Speaker 2: have not been afraid to, you know, reach out and
Speaker 2: make a phone call and ask questions. That's what I
Speaker 2: love about you. Who are some of those folks that
Speaker 2: have helped you along this journey level up your knowledge?
Speaker 1: That is a great question. I have bugged you guys
Speaker 1: at ping As you know, for the last ten years
Speaker 1: you have been an invaluable resource. Paul would I just
Speaker 1: I called Paul to hear his accent. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't really care what he says. I want that sexy
Speaker 1: accent that he's got. Eric Hemrinson there of course also
Speaker 1: doctor Soshil Mackenzie. I have bugged the daylights out of him,
Speaker 1: Doctor Young hou Kwan down in Dallas, Texas. I've bugged
Speaker 1: him about biomechanics as well. And I'm sure I'm leaving
Speaker 1: others out, But I don't ever want to make it
Speaker 1: sound like I did this on my own, because that
Speaker 1: is absolutely not true. And you guys at ping have
Speaker 1: been an invaluable resource and I really appreciate your help
Speaker 1: and support over the last ten years.
Speaker 3: Joe, I was interested in something you said. You said
Speaker 3: when you started to dive into TrackMan numbers, everything that
Speaker 3: had been kind of thought about in terms of the
Speaker 3: golf swing was either incorrect or maybe misevaluated, or maybe
Speaker 3: it was just simply wrong.
Speaker 4: What was wrong.
Speaker 3: About the way we thought about the way golfers hit it,
Speaker 3: pros hit it, and what have you changed in terms
Speaker 3: of the minds of some of the people in and
Speaker 3: around golf instructors, professional golfers that you feel like is
Speaker 3: now something everybody agrees on or believes that, well, believe.
Speaker 1: It or not. I don't think we still have a consensus.
Speaker 1: People will still send me screenshots of people on the internet,
Speaker 1: you know, saying hit down to make it go up,
Speaker 1: which we know is that's silly. That doesn't happen. The
Speaker 1: ball starts on the club path, which we know that
Speaker 1: doesn't happen except in very very specific cases. And I
Speaker 1: don't think it still starts on the path. It might
Speaker 1: become fifty to fifty or fifty five to forty five,
Speaker 1: but without question, the number one ball flight issue was
Speaker 1: the golf ball starts where the path of the club
Speaker 1: is and it curves towards the face, and that is
Speaker 1: dead wrong. As we know, that's absolutely backward. Which it
Speaker 1: starts basically where the face is pointed, and it actually
Speaker 1: curves away from the club path assuming your face hit.
Speaker 1: And I think one of the biggest revelations of track
Speaker 1: Man for the masses, and it should be the biggest revelation,
Speaker 1: is how the angle of attack, the angle of attack
Speaker 1: can be judge, jury and executioner. And I remember, oh
Speaker 1: my god, twelve years ago this is twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Right guys. Twelve years ago minimum when I did a
Speaker 1: video where I said, if your angle of attack changes
Speaker 1: from down of you know, I eat iron to driver
Speaker 1: and you're trying to hit the same shot, you cannot
Speaker 1: be aimed in the same place. Yes, when you start
Speaker 1: thinking of the three dimensional aspect of ballflight, the three
Speaker 1: dimensional aspect of the club movement. You know, we've been
Speaker 1: told for one hundred years that you got to have
Speaker 1: good grip, good stance, good posture, but you got to
Speaker 1: have good alignment. And I don't know what good alignment
Speaker 1: is because the best players in the world are aimed
Speaker 1: all over the place. Yeah, And I'd like to give
Speaker 1: just a quick, quick, little synopsis if if someone wants
Speaker 1: to hit a nice little draw with a seven iron
Speaker 1: right handed golfer, Well, we know that the club phase
Speaker 1: needs to be pointed somewhere right of the flag at
Speaker 1: impact to start it there, and we know the club
Speaker 1: path needs to be slightly right of that phase to
Speaker 1: make it curved back to the hole. That's what we know. Well,
Speaker 1: ball sitting on the ground and with a seven iron
Speaker 1: it should be that means that golf club is going
Speaker 1: to be moving down toward that golf ball, but it's
Speaker 1: going to be moving out to the right some amount,
Speaker 1: and that out helps us produce the path that we
Speaker 1: need to hit a draw. It does. So what I'm
Speaker 1: getting at is, with that seven iron, it's very reasonable.
Speaker 1: It's it's very plausible for the golfer to have good
Speaker 1: old fashioned straight railroad track alignment because the down helps
Speaker 1: the out, which helps the draw. Next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: he goes to the next te box, he tees up
Speaker 1: a driver to hit that same draw. Well, not his
Speaker 1: angler attack is up. Let's say it's up to it,
Speaker 1: which is very plausible as well. He and not have
Speaker 1: that same alignment because with the seven iron, that down
Speaker 1: produced the out, which helped him. But now with the driver,
Speaker 1: the up produces a leftward path, which does not help him.
Speaker 1: So now you got to ask yourself two questions. A.
Speaker 1: Are we going to change his upward angle of attack?
Speaker 1: And I would say, heck no, not with modern golf,
Speaker 1: not with the modern equipment. No, we want to launch
Speaker 1: this thing in the air. That's that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: It's a healthy thing. So if we're not going to
Speaker 1: change the angle of attack being upward, how are we
Speaker 1: going to defeat the leftward club path, which is actually
Speaker 1: our enemy. The answer is, we're going to aim to
Speaker 1: the right, and we're and this is what I say.
Speaker 1: I've been saying it for ten years. You have to
Speaker 1: aim right enough to counteract the left created by the up.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, I think like roar, he's a good example
Speaker 2: of that. You see him aim and you've seen him
Speaker 2: am as irons with rail look like railroad, and then
Speaker 2: he gets to the driver and you know, looks like
Speaker 2: he's am in thirty yards right.
Speaker 1: Sometimes Victor Hovin comes along and just throws the monkey
Speaker 1: bench and the whole darn thing. He aims right, hits cuts.
Speaker 1: I mean, so there you go. You know, you've got
Speaker 1: Roy Mackworth, what is he in the world rankings now
Speaker 1: number three and he's aimed to the right and drawing it.
Speaker 1: You got Victor number four in the role aim and
Speaker 1: right and cutting it. You're like, oh my god, what's
Speaker 1: going on. So at the end of the day, the
Speaker 1: bottom line is this, In my opinion, every modern instructor
Speaker 1: not only should know this stuff, in my opinion, he
Speaker 1: must know this stuff. He must understand the three dimensional
Speaker 1: travel of that golf club.
Speaker 2: Joe I think it's pretty fun with Victor. You know,
Speaker 2: we had him on the podcast. We talked to him,
Speaker 2: you know, between Olympia Fields and when he won that
Speaker 2: Tour championship, and he was describing some of his best
Speaker 2: iron shots and working the ball all shifting his baseline,
Speaker 2: shifting his alignments. I mean, what is it like to
Speaker 2: have a player like Victor that's really adopted understanding three
Speaker 2: D geometry, three D delivery, but then he can bring
Speaker 2: it onto the course with his feels. You know, how
Speaker 2: do you marry having that technical side of things with Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm an athlete.
Speaker 4: I got to hit this shot.
Speaker 2: I'm winning the biggest tournament in the world.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, Victor is an extremely intelligent kid
Speaker 1: out of golf. He's very inquisitive, and I've always believed
Speaker 1: that the sign of intelligence is not what you say
Speaker 1: that you know, it's the questions that you ask. And
Speaker 1: Victor is an extremely good question asker, and he keeps
Speaker 1: me on my toes. And I'll be completely honest with you.
Speaker 1: Working for Victor's demanding because he wants answers now, he
Speaker 1: actually wants them five minutes ago, and he wants correctness.
Speaker 1: And you if you not that I have how, but
Speaker 1: I can tell you if you try to slot something
Speaker 1: by him that just doesn't pass must or you're gonna
Speaker 1: hear about it. And so he's a smart kid, which
Speaker 1: is good for me, because you know me, guys, I
Speaker 1: like to get a little technical with times and talk
Speaker 1: about wrist angles and tilts and all that kind of
Speaker 1: good stuff, and he loves it. He's that stuff like candy.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, make no mistake
Speaker 1: about it. What you have seen out of Victor the
Speaker 1: last two weeks, specifically, what you've seen this year, It's
Speaker 1: not been some magical, mythical golfing phenomenon that I've been
Speaker 1: brought that I've brought him through teaching. You're just simply
Speaker 1: dealing with a Ferrari. You're dealing with an absolute world
Speaker 1: class primetime player. And as I said in an interview I
Speaker 1: did a few days ago Withgitor International, all he needed
Speaker 1: was a little good math and a little good science.
Speaker 1: This is what I told Victor when we started. I said,
Speaker 1: with your talent level, with your ability level, if my
Speaker 1: information is correct, if what I'm telling you is correct,
Speaker 1: then we must see results. There can be no other way.
Speaker 1: And if we're not seeing results, then most likely what
Speaker 1: I'm telling you is not valid. And guys, not to
Speaker 1: fluff my feathers. But what I have told him to do,
Speaker 1: he has caught on to it immediately. You guys have
Speaker 1: seen the results. The golfing world has seen the results.
Speaker 1: And one last little snippet, we did not be in
Speaker 1: short game until Riviera on Tuesday. He had a photo
Speaker 1: shoot on Monday. We started on Tuesday and he and
Speaker 1: his caddy, Shay were standing there and his agent, butler
Speaker 1: Butler Melnott were standing there with me, and I looked
Speaker 1: at him and I said, guys, this isn't going to
Speaker 1: take long. This ain't gonna take long. And I'm not
Speaker 1: so sure they believe me, but I believe not in
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. I believe that he could do it.
Speaker 1: And as you guys have heard me say before, anybody
Speaker 1: that can take a four iron and put it on
Speaker 1: the back of the ball at one hundred and five
Speaker 1: miles an hour and hit a shot dead straight from
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty yards away to a flag, don't
Speaker 1: tell me he can't chip a golf ball. Don't tell
Speaker 1: me that he can't pitch a golf ball because I
Speaker 1: don't accept that theory. I don't accept that hypothesis that
Speaker 1: this kid can't chip a golf ball. Yeah, and now
Speaker 1: the world is seeing that he can. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Joe kind of reminds me a little bit of you know,
Speaker 2: Tiger had those struggles a little bit with chipping. It's
Speaker 2: not a confidence thing. He doesn't need. He doesn't need
Speaker 2: like a sports psychologist. He needs like mechanics. He needs
Speaker 2: to improve the kinetics, you know what I mean, what
Speaker 2: he's feeling. So give a little overview there of those
Speaker 2: changes in the three D delivery and maybe some of
Speaker 2: the angular rates right of victor short game, you know,
Speaker 2: before and after some of these changes that were making
Speaker 2: you know, angle of attack, delivery, things of that nature.
Speaker 1: Well, first and foremost it is my opinion, I stress
Speaker 1: opinion that people are bad shippers, or they become bad
Speaker 1: shippers because they hit the ground too soon and or incorrectly.
Speaker 1: And Victor Palvin was a living embodiment of hitting the
Speaker 1: ground too soon and hitting it incorrectly. He had them
Speaker 1: both going on. He had double whammies. And the more
Speaker 1: he would stick it in the ground and the more
Speaker 1: he would lay the sod over it, and the more
Speaker 1: he would flob it, the more he believed he was
Speaker 1: too steep. Yeah, I'm not engaging the bounce. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've heard engaged the bounce for two million times. I've
Speaker 1: heard that. And he believed that he was too steep.
Speaker 1: Well as Marty, as you know, that was absolutely incorrect.
Speaker 1: And all things being equal, a steep angle of attack
Speaker 1: moves the low point more forward. And if the low
Speaker 1: point is more forward or shall we say contact with
Speaker 1: the ground, because contact with the grounds not thisssarily your
Speaker 1: low point. I'm just trying to keep it simple for
Speaker 1: our viewers our listeners. So as the angle of attack
Speaker 1: becomes more steeper, all things being equal, the low point
Speaker 1: becomes more forward. Well, if the low point or the
Speaker 1: contact point with the ground is more forward, then that
Speaker 1: means I'm not chili dipping it anymore. That means I'm
Speaker 1: not fatting it anymore. It means I'm catching ball first,
Speaker 1: And make no mistake about it. When you are trying
Speaker 1: to chip at the PJ tort well, when you're trying
Speaker 1: to chip at any level, if you cannot accurately predict contact,
Speaker 1: if you cannot accurately predict the speed of the ball
Speaker 1: off of that face, you cannot chip, and you sure
Speaker 1: cannot chip at the tour level. So what I did
Speaker 1: was I said, no, you're not too steep or too shallow.
Speaker 1: We started moving the angle of attack dramatically more down.
Speaker 1: When he came to me, his angle of attack on
Speaker 1: a chip or a pitch was three or four degrees down,
Speaker 1: and now it's twelve. He can stand there and rip
Speaker 1: them all day long with his eyes closed now, because
Speaker 1: what the technique has allowed him to do is catch good,
Speaker 1: solid contact with a high frequency, which allows him to
Speaker 1: predict what the ball is going to do before he
Speaker 1: hits it. And if you think about it in common
Speaker 1: sense terms, that's that's that's that's the good sauce. That's
Speaker 1: that's the secret to chimping is being able to predict
Speaker 1: what the ball is going to do. Uh. And with
Speaker 1: that steep angle attack, now that low point is dramatically
Speaker 1: more forward, which increases the probability of a solid hit.
Speaker 1: That's all he needed, guys. And unfortunately he was told, well,
Speaker 1: you can't shift if your wrist angles like that going back.
Speaker 1: Well we know that's true because Jordan Spied does it,
Speaker 1: and Dustin Johnson does it, and Brooks Koepka does it.
Speaker 1: And the last time I checked, they're all major champions.
Speaker 1: They were all normal in the world. When I showed
Speaker 1: him those videos of those guys doing that, there was
Speaker 1: like a light bulb moment. He was like wow, because
Speaker 1: all this time he had been trying to roll that
Speaker 1: risk in the backswing cup cup that wrist. No one
Speaker 1: had ever said, no, no, no, no, no no no. Let's
Speaker 1: get the bottom vector of spin loft, which for the
Speaker 1: viewers out here, that's the angle of attack. Let's work
Speaker 1: on the bottom vector, which moves the low point forward,
Speaker 1: which allows you to predict contact. Because Marty, this is
Speaker 1: what I believe to be true when we're talking spin loft.
Speaker 1: And you know, Victor had that little spin loft thing
Speaker 1: on the interview the other day. He said he learns
Speaker 1: spin loft. Well, as we know, spin loft is just
Speaker 1: an angle. You got the angle attack on the bottom,
Speaker 1: you got the dynamic loft on the top. In my opinion,
Speaker 1: the bottom vector is where the money's made. Anybody can
Speaker 1: have a good top vector. I can just just open
Speaker 1: the face that points the top vector up in there.
Speaker 1: Just open the face, yep. But bottom vector that's where
Speaker 1: the money is made, and that was his problem, and
Speaker 1: in my opinion, it is the problem when people cannot
Speaker 1: chip and pitch. They don't have the low point or
Speaker 1: the contact point with the ground far and a forward.
Speaker 1: Therefore they're hitting the ground too soon and then they're
Speaker 1: hitting it incorrectly. And after about ten thousand unsuccessful attempts,
Speaker 1: then you start doing things to not hit the ground,
Speaker 1: and that's when this thing can get sideways quickly.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, Joe, I was just gonna ask, how did
Speaker 3: you and Victor? How did you guys get in contact?
Speaker 3: Like what was that initial introduction like to start to
Speaker 3: work together.
Speaker 1: I called him he needed to loan me money? When
Speaker 1: not to play poker with? I needed a loan, So
Speaker 1: that's what I called him, though, I'm just kidding. I'm
Speaker 1: just kidding.
Speaker 3: Hey, listen, now you can call him and I think
Speaker 3: he'd probably give you that loan pretty quick.
Speaker 1: No, he won't give it to me, or he'll charge
Speaker 1: me twenty percent interest. So no, he's no. The Bank
Speaker 1: of Hobblood is closed up. Not getting in there. I've
Speaker 1: known Victor now five years, give or take. Met him
Speaker 1: when I went to Oklahoma State coach Bratton and coach
Speaker 1: Darr out there had me out there to do a
Speaker 1: little chatting with them. I met him, I met him
Speaker 1: Ben and we stayed in contact. But Victor contacted me
Speaker 1: in late twenty nineteen, I believe it was October. He
Speaker 1: sent me his swings and I did a video analysis
Speaker 1: like this. He was like a twenty minute analysis where
Speaker 1: I was pre to him and guys, this is the
Speaker 1: honest truth. Sent that video analysis to coach Brighton, coach
Speaker 1: Dharr because I wanted complete transparency. I wanted everyone to
Speaker 1: hear what I was saying to this kid. I told him,
Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken, I told him five times in
Speaker 1: that video, stay away from golf instruction, stay away from golf,
Speaker 1: including me. Stay away. You are going bleat. It's a
Speaker 1: matter of time. And I said, you need a good
Speaker 1: caddy and a good lawyer, not a good golf bro.
Speaker 1: So he decided to come out and see me in
Speaker 1: November of twenty nineteen and we went out to TPC
Speaker 1: Summerlin and he just put on a ball hitting exhibition.
Speaker 1: He's hitting four irons off the ground, He's barely touching
Speaker 1: the turf, launching this thing two forty straight as you
Speaker 1: can point. He put out the driver and he's hitting
Speaker 1: it out there three hundred and twenty yards with a
Speaker 1: two yard cut. And when it was over, he said,
Speaker 1: what do you think. I think that you don't need
Speaker 1: a golf instructors. What I think? And we went back
Speaker 1: to my house that night and I had a little
Speaker 1: bourbon and I said, Victor, you're a great kid. I
Speaker 1: want to be your friend. And I said, if if
Speaker 1: you want to drink bourbon, if you want to play poker,
Speaker 1: that's fine. I'm your guy. But we're not going to
Speaker 1: do golf instruction. We're not gonna do that. So as
Speaker 1: an instructor, guys, As an instructor, I knew that I
Speaker 1: had a generational talent sitting in front of me. I
Speaker 1: knew that I had a player sitting in front of
Speaker 1: me that quote unquote could take me places. He could
Speaker 1: he could take me places. I was not going to
Speaker 1: have that. I was not going to allow that. He
Speaker 1: did not need my help. He did not need instruction,
Speaker 1: in my opinion. And I told him no. And that's
Speaker 1: a factual statement. If you asked Victor, he'll tell you that.
Speaker 1: And then he went on his way. And fast forward
Speaker 1: to December, he calls me and says, Joe, would you
Speaker 1: take a look at some swings? And I did, and
Speaker 1: when I saw them, I hit rid. I'll immediately, I said, Victor,
Speaker 1: what on earth is going on? And I gave him
Speaker 1: some preliminary thoughts on what to do. He was not
Speaker 1: extending his nearly fast enough. We'll just keep it there
Speaker 1: to make it short and sweet. Had some success, comes
Speaker 1: out to see me in Las Vegas. We go out
Speaker 1: to the Summit Club and when he called me in December,
Speaker 1: his angle of attack with a seven n iron was
Speaker 1: almost nine degrees down, eight and a half degrees down.
Speaker 1: And as I said five minutes ago, when that angle
Speaker 1: of attack is down, that's trying to push the path
Speaker 1: to the right. He's trying to get cuts pass moving
Speaker 1: to the right. And the more he tried to swing
Speaker 1: out into the left, the more the angle of attack
Speaker 1: went down, which the path went to the right. He
Speaker 1: was a cat chasing its tail. He couldn't get the
Speaker 1: path left of the face. When he comes out to
Speaker 1: Vegas and I get him to extend his hips, angle
Speaker 1: of attack goes to four degrees down immediately, and now
Speaker 1: he can get the path over to the left of
Speaker 1: the face and start cutting the ball. But the big
Speaker 1: deal was I sent him down to Dallas, Texas to
Speaker 1: see my good friend John Sinclair and Marty. I know
Speaker 1: you know John, and I trust John Sinclair implicitly when
Speaker 1: it comes to three D capture, specifically with AMM three D,
Speaker 1: which in my opinion, as of today, it's the best.
Speaker 1: It's the best we have today, and John is the
Speaker 1: best with that. And never forget what I'm about to
Speaker 1: say for you instructors out there, if you ever are
Speaker 1: fortunate enough to teach a player of this caliber, you
Speaker 1: must get three D. You must because the camera will
Speaker 1: lie to you, your eyes will lie to you, and
Speaker 1: if you didn't need three D, there would be no
Speaker 1: such thing. But I knew that dealing with Victor and
Speaker 1: dealing with a player of this caliber, I had to know.
Speaker 1: I sent him down there. My suspicions were confirmed, not
Speaker 1: to say, wow, Joe, you're right, but fisions were confirmed
Speaker 1: which allowed me to then proceed further down the road
Speaker 1: of helping him. And there is no way, no way
Speaker 1: that I'm going to touch the golf swing of a
Speaker 1: player at this level without knowing what I'm doing, and
Speaker 1: the way to know what you're doing is to get
Speaker 1: to three D.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe, I like to think about that as like,
Speaker 2: you know, maybe you you fall, you got an injury
Speaker 2: on your arm, it looks bruised, let's take an X ray.
Speaker 2: That might be what you can do with your launch monitor.
Speaker 2: But then you got to get an MRI, right, and
Speaker 2: then you know, so that's kind of the spectrum. You know,
Speaker 2: you're not going to treat that without getting the MRI.
Speaker 2: And that's that's where I think, you know, the future
Speaker 2: is very bright for the everyday golfer because more and
Speaker 2: more that technology is coming right and we're using things
Speaker 2: like learnings from our focal our three D motion system,
Speaker 2: which is very focused on what the club is doing,
Speaker 2: and passing along insights from there to the everyday golfer.
Speaker 2: One interesting thing Joe I wanted to ask you about
Speaker 2: Victor was he has the lowest you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of different ways we can define closure rate, but
Speaker 2: he has the lowest closure rate of any of our
Speaker 2: tour players we've measured. This means like coming in from
Speaker 2: P six chaft parallel to the ground to impact, that
Speaker 2: face is already relatively square and it's only closing like
Speaker 2: twenty degrees from P six to impact, where we know
Speaker 2: one of our other tour players it might be forty
Speaker 2: to fifty degrees right in there. Right, what is the
Speaker 2: relation between Victor's unique wrist angles and that closure rate?
Speaker 2: And then my relate to that, to that Joe is like,
Speaker 2: you know, how do you tie what he does in
Speaker 2: his full swing to his short game? And maybe that
Speaker 2: can that could come second to that that question, Well.
Speaker 1: The first answer touching on right closure, yes, he is.
Speaker 1: When Johnston Claiter measure is the lowest I've ever measured
Speaker 1: in John's statabase is probably two hundred players, two Hunred
Speaker 1: tour players. Yeah, I want to make it perfectly clear.
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with this right of QUI stuff.
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with that. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: so certain any instructor alive can touch into that. As
Speaker 1: you know, Marty, rate of closure is a touchy subject
Speaker 1: how it's measured. Yes, but let's be fair, let's be honest.
Speaker 1: There are world class players who have a high rate
Speaker 1: of closure. Yes, there are, uh and the key word
Speaker 1: is rate. So if you look at a player that
Speaker 1: has this this big swivel after impact, that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: they had a high rate of closure because they could
Speaker 1: have been closing this thing all the way down, which
Speaker 1: means the rate is not quick. The rate was slow.
Speaker 1: The total amount of closure was great, but the rate
Speaker 1: of closure was high. But as far as Victor is concerned, Marty,
Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with it. How he learned
Speaker 1: to do that?
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Marty, because yeah I could could Yeah, I
Speaker 2: could just be how he grew up playing and and
Speaker 2: what what those risk conditions are, and how that kind
Speaker 2: of relates. I think related to that, Joe would just be,
Speaker 2: you know, and you talked about his wrist angles and
Speaker 2: what you've seen given him permission to play with a
Speaker 2: certain risk condition in his short game. Has that helped
Speaker 2: Mary now that he's performing so good with short game
Speaker 2: and full swing together at the same time.
Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely critical because as I told you before,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone wanted him to roll that form and
Speaker 1: cut that wrist that's one hundred eighty degrees against his DNA.
Speaker 1: How are you supposed to step up on a green
Speaker 1: at Augusta, Nashal on Sunday at the Masters and roll
Speaker 1: your form, cut your wrist, roll the face wide open,
Speaker 1: and hit a chip shot off of that tight line
Speaker 1: on national television trying to win a green jacket. It's
Speaker 1: not gonna happen. And as I said, when he saw
Speaker 1: the videos of Dustin Brooks and Jordan, it gave him
Speaker 1: the freedom mentally to say, wait a minute, this is okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And this is what I told him. I said, if
Speaker 1: you want the face open, just open the darn thing
Speaker 1: in address. Just just let it. Lay it wide open
Speaker 1: on the bunker, lay it flatten the bunker opened the
Speaker 1: face of a dress. And I think, without question, part
Speaker 1: of his success of being able to pick up on
Speaker 1: this stuff was I did not tamper anyway with grill
Speaker 1: for rotations and wrist angles. I did not so any
Speaker 1: of the little finite moves that he's making that's on him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't touch it, Joe.
Speaker 3: I was interested in something you said earlier about the
Speaker 3: golf swing, like when we first started about how there's
Speaker 3: so many unique ways to do this now and how
Speaker 3: we're learning so much more about the golf swing. There
Speaker 3: was a time, you know, around the two thousands with Tiger.
Speaker 3: It was Tiger, it was Adam Scott, and it was
Speaker 3: this perfect move, right, everybody's got to have this perfect move.
Speaker 3: Are we going towards a world where the best in
Speaker 3: the world's golf swings are all going to look relatively different,
Speaker 3: considering guys like Victor can kind of do it in
Speaker 3: a different way than a Rory does it or a
Speaker 3: Brooks does it and be just as effective.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're gowing that direction. I think we're
Speaker 1: already there. We've always been there. Jack Nicholas and Lee
Speaker 1: Trevino looked nothing alike nothing, and Roy looks nothing like Victor.
Speaker 1: Victor has a little John Romney stuff going on, and
Speaker 1: you're just a little bit. The only thing they've got
Speaker 1: in common is are holding on to a golf club
Speaker 1: getting the ball. I think now with three d uh
Speaker 1: and with information being released, it's helping the instructor understand
Speaker 1: what's going on and say, you know what, it's okay
Speaker 1: to be different. And I'm just gonna go on the
Speaker 1: record right now with Victor hoven Uh. Anybody that tampers
Speaker 1: with that gross motor pattern, that overall gross motor pattern,
Speaker 1: that signature that he has, you should be horse whipped
Speaker 1: because you are looking at a world class machine. And guys,
Speaker 1: what I've done with him has been minimalistic, and I
Speaker 1: just tried to put him back to what he used
Speaker 1: to be. That's all, nothing more. And I want to
Speaker 1: stress the credit goes to the kid. Yeah, involvement in
Speaker 1: this was you know, like I said, just a little
Speaker 1: bit of math, just a little bit, but yeah, that
Speaker 1: is that you're looking at a finely tuned machine. And
Speaker 1: I also want to say, if we had a clone
Speaker 1: of Victor, if we had Victor A and Victor B
Speaker 1: and they're both standing on the range hitting balls, and
Speaker 1: Victor B cosmetically looks like Victor A, that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: Victor B is going to play like Victor A. The
Speaker 1: cosmetics are just that part of it. When we start
Speaker 1: talking about kinetics, then you've got to ask yourself, what
Speaker 1: about the emotional component that Victor has to play golf
Speaker 1: under this tremendous pressure. There's not an instructor on the
Speaker 1: face of this earth that can teach that.
Speaker 2: Joe, I want to talk a little bit about friction.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned Victor's more down now and he's getting
Speaker 2: more predictability out of his shots. So in my mind,
Speaker 2: from the physics of it, it's it's a double win.
Speaker 2: It's you get more predictability of where he's going to
Speaker 2: land that club or the low point or the interaction
Speaker 2: between the ball and the face. And the other one
Speaker 2: that compounds that and adds to it is you get
Speaker 2: better predictability of the coefficient of friction. Yeah, so we
Speaker 2: kind of define that as MEW. We've talked about this
Speaker 2: this thing MEW. Victor and I, Me and you and
Speaker 2: Victor have this funny running joke going about it. But
Speaker 2: the more you hit down, the less time you have
Speaker 2: to pick up water debris, get grasp between the ball
Speaker 2: and the face. He's also switched to our glide wedges,
Speaker 2: so we have really we have a hydro pearl finish
Speaker 2: which sheds the water. It's hydrophobic and this type of stuff. Overall,
Speaker 2: we're just kind of compounding the alignments with having a
Speaker 2: better predictability of the friction. And I think that's also
Speaker 2: as a player, what's put you at ease, right, it's
Speaker 2: that unpredictability that can kind of drive you crazy with
Speaker 2: the short game, right one hundred.
Speaker 1: Percent, Marty Well said, because think of it like this
Speaker 1: guy is because now that he can predict contact, now
Speaker 1: that the bottom of vec or is doing its job,
Speaker 1: now he can predict spin loft, which, as we know,
Speaker 1: the spin loft predicts ball speed and spin rate.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And what's amazing, guys, is this he now finds himself
Speaker 1: swinging the club faster and the ball's going slower. Ye. Yes, ah.
Speaker 1: And I remember long ago when I was on Twitter,
Speaker 1: back in the old track man Maestro days, good lord,
Speaker 1: I made a tweet long long ago and I said,
Speaker 1: the expert golfer knows how to speed the ball up
Speaker 1: in the long game and slow it down in the
Speaker 1: short game. Yes, the poor golfer slows it down in
Speaker 1: the long game and speeds it up in the short game.
Speaker 4: They do.
Speaker 1: And the key for this is we want you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: there's times in a short game where you want the
Speaker 1: ball kind of hot and running. There's times when you
Speaker 1: don't want it spending a lot, I get it. But
Speaker 1: generally speaking, in the short game, we want slow balls.
Speaker 1: We want slow ball speed, we want high spin generally speaking.
Speaker 1: And as you said, Marty, that comes from friction and
Speaker 1: it comes from spin loft. And now he has both.
Speaker 1: And when a player of Victor's talent level, when they
Speaker 1: get out there and they do this, you know, a
Speaker 1: few hundred times a few thousand times, and he sees
Speaker 1: the predictability.
Speaker 4: It's game on.
Speaker 2: I want to bring up something that's topical to the
Speaker 2: top to friction, which is Shane. Shane is on a
Speaker 2: golf heater himself right now. He just he just played
Speaker 2: in the USAM at Cherry Hills a few weeks ago
Speaker 2: and just made a hole in one. And what is it,
Speaker 2: Shane the Connecticut Midam recently. Yeah, Yeah, tell us about
Speaker 2: your hole in one, what club you hit? What was
Speaker 2: the yard age? Did you see the ball up or not?
Speaker 2: Because this kind of relates to that friction topic.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean friction was involved. It was.
Speaker 3: It was kind of like a little shorty Part three
Speaker 3: was about one hundred and twenty yards and I ted
Speaker 3: up sand wedge and ripped it back into the hole.
Speaker 3: So it was one of the holes in one you
Speaker 3: dream of hitting that actually spin back in Joe. But yeah,
Speaker 3: I got a lot of Yeah, got a lot of
Speaker 3: got a lot of spin off of tea. I feel
Speaker 3: like some of the time when you tee it up,
Speaker 3: maybe I don't rip it back as much because I'm
Speaker 3: not hitting down into it. But you obviously would would
Speaker 3: would know more about that than I would.
Speaker 1: Well be careful when you just say it comes from
Speaker 1: hitting down into it. It comes from not only the
Speaker 1: hitting down part, but the loft. Remember, you got to
Speaker 1: get the spin loft to open up. But when you
Speaker 1: put the ball on the tee, you highly increase the
Speaker 1: probability of clean contact, which means you highly increase the
Speaker 1: probability of the friction, which that's where the spinner is
Speaker 1: gonna come from. So the viewers or the listeners need
Speaker 1: to be cautioned that hitting down in and of itself
Speaker 1: is not the answer, because remember spin loft has two components.
Speaker 1: You got the down and you got the loft. I could,
Speaker 1: I could. I could hit down more and just take
Speaker 1: the loft with me. I need to hit down more
Speaker 1: and get the loft. I need to open that angle up.
Speaker 1: I need to open that thing up. Right there, you go.
Speaker 1: Need to open that spin loft angle up. And when
Speaker 1: you do that with friction, you're going to get that
Speaker 1: high spin rate, no question about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the fun things about that topic
Speaker 2: of spin loft Mountain Joe, is that the cleaner the friction,
Speaker 2: so the better your lie. You're off a tee, your
Speaker 2: zoysia a lot of folks out there get fit or
Speaker 2: evaluate equipment indoors. Right, you have really clean contact, then
Speaker 2: your maximum spin or the peak of that spin loft
Speaker 2: mountain is gonna be when your spin loft is much
Speaker 2: much greater. Right, that's where you can get tons of
Speaker 2: spin off of tea correct. But then chip, you know,
Speaker 2: normal chipping and short game and this kind of goes
Speaker 2: back Shane, I kind of thought of that topic of Shay.
Speaker 2: Victor's caddy talked about the wind being light and variable
Speaker 2: r give some nightmares. Well, I think reading your lie
Speaker 2: around the greens, you got light and variable friction. You know,
Speaker 2: it's kind of light and variable wind, and that's where
Speaker 2: a lot of that short game in predicting the lie,
Speaker 2: reading the lie in Joe, I think that's where you've
Speaker 2: done magic with Victor, getting to hit more down, get
Speaker 2: more clean contact, more predictable friction, a higher percentage of
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 1: Yes, one hundred percent at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: What I think the viewer needs to understand going back
Speaker 1: is if we can increase the probability of clean contact. Agree,
Speaker 1: if we can increase the probability of that and we
Speaker 1: have you know, a good ball and we have clean grooves,
Speaker 1: if we can increase the probability of the clean hit,
Speaker 1: assuming that we know how to manipulate spin loft, that's
Speaker 1: all this is. That's all this is. And and with
Speaker 1: Victor getting him to understand that he was too shallow,
Speaker 1: the low point was actually back, not forward. And you know,
Speaker 1: with him, when he hit the ground behind the ball
Speaker 1: about two thousand times in a row, what's he going
Speaker 1: to do? He started actually leaning the shaft forward right
Speaker 1: to not hit the ground. Well, when you lean the
Speaker 1: shaft too far forward, now you start closing the spin
Speaker 1: loft down because the bottom vector's not down enough and
Speaker 1: you're delofting the club, so you're shutting spin loft down. So,
Speaker 1: as you know, Marty, even if you do get clean
Speaker 1: contact with a shut down spin loft.
Speaker 4: The spin's gone, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And he's throwing fastballs, which we don't want. So he
Speaker 1: either had flubs or chips or he had fastballs, and
Speaker 1: neither one of those are in a good situation when
Speaker 1: you're playing on the PGA tour.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in those chips where the speed comes out way
Speaker 2: hotter than your brain you know, has wired up to do.
Speaker 1: Think about the fear and anxiety when that happens to
Speaker 1: you under the high schools of pressure, think about that.
Speaker 1: Now your brain is spinning out there, and now you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: dear God, don't miss a green. So I mean, guys,
Speaker 1: this this short game stuff, it goes on. It transcends
Speaker 1: all the way back through the bag. No question.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Joe had a question.
Speaker 3: Victor was telling us when we interviewed him that he
Speaker 3: is into playing poker right now. If you've got a
Speaker 3: chance to play any poker with him or seen him
Speaker 3: in action and houses game.
Speaker 1: He is. He has improved dramatically. He has. The Only
Speaker 1: thing about Victors he's a little impatient. He likes acting
Speaker 1: and now with his bank role playing for playing for
Speaker 1: five hundred dollars is not. It doesn't keep his interest
Speaker 1: like it should.
Speaker 3: He's hanging around with tens that he doesn't need to be.
Speaker 3: It's just like it's fine.
Speaker 1: He meant about a thirty thousand dollars buy in one
Speaker 1: night at Bolajo, and we're going to see what he's got.
Speaker 3: Joe, I had I had another question for you. I
Speaker 3: know you're into sports memorabilia. What's your what's your kind
Speaker 3: of golden goose at home? Right? Now what do you
Speaker 3: What do you have or what have you purchased that
Speaker 3: your favorite item?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I modestly, guys, I think I have
Speaker 1: a museum caliber pieces. I yeah, I've got I've got
Speaker 1: the jersey that Tom Brady wore Bucks versus Eagles in
Speaker 1: October of twenty twenty one. I bought that directly from
Speaker 1: Tom's charity himself. I've got Peyton Manning's AFC championship jersey
Speaker 1: that he wore to beat the Patriots to get to
Speaker 1: the Super Bowl and end that he threw his final
Speaker 1: NFL touchdown because he did not throw one in the
Speaker 1: Super Bowl. Yep, Peyton saw How the hell did you
Speaker 1: get that? And I know people, Peyton, I know people.
Speaker 1: So I've got I've got some really really good pieces
Speaker 1: and it's just been a hobby of mine. I enjoy
Speaker 1: the history behind it. But believe it or not, guys,
Speaker 1: some of my most important pieces are the three victories,
Speaker 1: the shirt that Victor was wearing on Sunday at Memorial
Speaker 1: at BMW, and the Tour Championship. I have all three
Speaker 1: of those. So those are three great the great pieces
Speaker 1: that I'm that I'm very proud of, very.
Speaker 2: Special to Joe, I want to give you a nod.
Speaker 2: I want to say. I want to say, I think
Speaker 2: the whole golf industry owes you, you know, credit, because
Speaker 2: you can't teach all the golfers out there, but you
Speaker 2: you've helped push us at ping you. You know, Victor
Speaker 2: asked you a question. You get stumped, you call us,
Speaker 2: we get stumped. Somebody's got to keep researching. It's kind
Speaker 2: of the synergy that we have right of keeping pushing
Speaker 2: us on the R and D side. And I think
Speaker 2: you've influenced a lot of the golf instructors out there,
Speaker 2: and so I just want to thank you for your
Speaker 2: help to Victor, but also helping level up all the
Speaker 2: golf industry. You and Grant Waite early adopters, a tract
Speaker 2: man and being practitioners, I think has really helped a
Speaker 2: lot of us. And and we appreciate everything you've done
Speaker 2: for the industry and you're doing for Victor right now.
Speaker 2: So thank you for coming on and spending time with us, Joe,
Speaker 2: and sharing a little insights about you know, this this
Speaker 2: great athlete that we've had the pleasure to watch here lately.
Speaker 1: It's been incredible and as I said before, I appreciate
Speaker 1: your guy support over the last ten years. So I
Speaker 1: know I've bugged the daylights out of you. Paul doesn't
Speaker 1: even answer the phone anymore. What I call it goes
Speaker 1: straight to voicemail, no more answering. He'll call back in
Speaker 1: a week or so. But now there's no more answering
Speaker 1: with Paul. I think I've burned that bridge. I bugged
Speaker 1: him so much, but no, Paul is very kind. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, guys, this has been
Speaker 1: a pleasure for me and I have learned just as
Speaker 1: much from Victor as he has learned from me. And
Speaker 1: you know, full disclosure, I've never had a player that
Speaker 1: is going to be potentially number in the world one day.
Speaker 1: I've never had a kid that can do what this
Speaker 1: kid can do. Yeah, for all of you old college
Speaker 1: basketball fans out there, there was a famous coach called
Speaker 1: His name was Adolph Rupp. He coached the Kentucky Wildcats
Speaker 1: long ago. He had a great statement and he said,
Speaker 1: you don't win to Kentucky derby riding a mule. Don't
Speaker 1: ever forget that. So if you want, I tell people,
Speaker 1: if you want to become a great tour instructor, find
Speaker 1: yourself a great tour.
Speaker 3: Player, and Victor Hovelin is definitely that. Joseph Mayo really
Speaker 3: appreciate the time. Very interesting conversation, not just on the
Speaker 3: golf side, but the memorabilia stuff is fascinated as well.
Speaker 4: I'm I'm now like looking behind.
Speaker 3: You in your video in your world saying I wonder
Speaker 3: what that image is, I wonder what's signed there.
Speaker 4: So we really appreciate the time.
Speaker 1: Those back there are photographs from signed photographs from different
Speaker 1: actors from different movies and TV shows, and that's that's
Speaker 1: what that is.
Speaker 3: Love it awesome, awesome, Thank you so much for the time.
Speaker 4: We really appreciate it. This is the Ping Proving Grounds Podcast.