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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if.

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Speaker 2: You've had experience with manipulation or abusive power that you'd

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Speaker 2: like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me, Trust trust me.

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Speaker 1: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lived to you, and we never have a live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two broads who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I'm low Lablanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today our guest is Mobein Shake, deradicalize Islamic extremists and

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Speaker 2: former security intelligence and counter terrorism operative. In part one

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Speaker 2: of our interview this week, he will tell us about

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Speaker 2: how he grew up in Toronto balancing secular and religious life,

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Speaker 2: the party he threw that made him feel ashamed enough

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Speaker 2: to dive deeper into Islam, and how seeing men in

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Speaker 2: the Taliban when he traveled to Pakistan radicalized him.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about the structure of Islam and his particular sect,

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Speaker 1: what he's learned about the many complex factors that contribute

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Speaker 1: to extremism and terrorism, and the deep dive he did

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Speaker 1: into understanding his own religion.

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Speaker 2: And stay tuned for part two next week, in which

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Speaker 2: we learn about how Moubein went undercover to disrupt a

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Speaker 2: terrorist plot.

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Speaker 3: This one is so interesting.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting. I've been wanting to do an episode

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Speaker 2: like this for a long time, and I'm glad we

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Speaker 2: finally found someone who was willing to share his experience

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Speaker 2: with us.

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Speaker 3: He's great.

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Speaker 2: Before we dive in with Moubin, Meghan, Yeah, what's your

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Speaker 2: cultiest thing?

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Speaker 3: My cultiest thing.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty depressing, But basically there's more coming out about

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Speaker 1: cult mom Laurie Valow. We talk about her sometimes on

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Speaker 1: this show, but basically her and her husband Chad da

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Speaker 1: Bell believe that it was about to be the end

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Speaker 1: of times.

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Speaker 3: They ended up murdering her two children.

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Speaker 1: And I always imagined it was kind of a spur

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Speaker 1: of the moment thing, but court documents being released are

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Speaker 1: showing that they had a zombie scale.

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Speaker 3: They were rating the children in and.

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Speaker 1: If they were close to zero or one hundred, that

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Speaker 1: means that they were close to death.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like zero or one hundred. That seems

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Speaker 2: like the opposite.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're at fifty, I think you'd be safe,

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Speaker 1: but if you're at zero, it's bad. Or if you're

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Speaker 1: at ninety nine, it's bad. So Chad told Laurie that Tylie,

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Speaker 1: the daughter, was at a zero point one three, and JJ,

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Speaker 1: her son, was at a ninety nine point ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: So, oh no.

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Speaker 1: Then this is an exact quote from his text to her.

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Speaker 1: I turned up the pain to ten and placed a

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Speaker 1: spiritual virus in her.

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Speaker 3: Chad wrote about her.

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Speaker 1: Daughter, so, oh my god, they were so consumed with

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Speaker 1: the idea that her kids were like possessed with demons.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. The next quote on this page is horrifying.

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Speaker 2: It says he, meaning JJ is at ninety nine point

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Speaker 2: ninety nine. Raphael visited him and told him to follow

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Speaker 2: Amy into the light. I also assured him that James

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Speaker 2: would love and take care of his mommy, which he

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Speaker 2: will with all of his heart and soul. That is

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Speaker 2: the status thing I've ever fucking heard. Oh my god,

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Speaker 2: these quotes are insane. Tammy's at three, JJ is at

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Speaker 2: two both are being heavily shielded to stop intruders. Two

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Speaker 2: and three percent, she asks, not zero? He says, I

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Speaker 2: will explain when we talk. She says, Okay, still feeling

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Speaker 2: hot for you? Yeah, he says, yes. We might need

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Speaker 2: to release a little steam next time we meet. Anyway.

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Speaker 2: This is the chart that checks what percentage mortals are

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Speaker 2: still in their body. It worked for my friend's wife

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Speaker 2: who died, my neighbor, George Bush, stan Lee, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: It's absolutely horrible, horrible.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. I will be on the edge of

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Speaker 2: my seat to find out more. Have you been watching

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Speaker 2: the trial, like, actually, is it public?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 3: I haven't. I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know either, But I really want to know

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Speaker 2: what the fuck was going on in their reins, which,

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Speaker 2: of course we may never know, but tbd.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So, what's your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 2: A complete opposite note of that, we're gonna take it

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Speaker 2: to the lighter side of things for a second. Jack

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Speaker 2: is in the other room literally screaming at his computer

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Speaker 2: because of sports. Yay, he's screaming because of sports. I

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Speaker 2: guess his team, the Hornets, the Charlotte Hornets, are getting

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Speaker 2: to pick their new team member today. Oh, clearly I

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Speaker 2: know a lot about basketball, and he's very excited because

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Speaker 2: they get their one of the top picks. And it

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Speaker 2: might be a person who's, you know, really really good

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Speaker 2: and could change the game literally for.

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Speaker 1: You shouldn't stop explaining it for sure.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean, I'm doing a really good job?

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Speaker 1: Shit?

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Speaker 2: Anyway, it's I've never seen him this passionate about anything

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Speaker 2: in my fucking life. This man is like so subdued

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Speaker 2: and chill, but you do anything for this team. Man,

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Speaker 2: he's an evangelist.

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Speaker 1: My god, it's so true. People go full cult with

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Speaker 1: their sports teams so on.

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Speaker 2: That totally not culty, but also it's fun because sports

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Speaker 2: are kind of culty. Note should we talk to movie.

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Speaker 3: I would love to. Let's do it.

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Speaker 2: to trust me. Thank you so much for joining us,

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me please start us at the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about your childhood. You grew up in Toronto.

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Speaker 2: Was it a pretty western upbringing?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, tell me about your childhood all right.

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Speaker 5: The upbringing phase is, you know, my parents are Indian background,

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Speaker 5: came to Canada in this mid seventies, so I'm born

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Speaker 5: in seventy five Libro and yeah, it was a very

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Speaker 5: i mean western society, Toronto, Canada. So by daytime I

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Speaker 5: would go to public school, very you know, secular environment,

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Speaker 5: boys and girls mixing, diverse backgrounds. And in the evening time,

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Speaker 5: after school, from six to eight, I would go to

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Speaker 5: Koran School.

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Speaker 4: And Koran School.

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Speaker 5: Was the opposite of secular public school. It was religious,

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Speaker 5: forced reading of scriptures, boys and girls could not mix,

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Speaker 5: and there there was no diverse backgrounds. It was just

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Speaker 5: basically Indo Pakistani, you know, Indian subcontinent demographic. Doing that

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Speaker 5: together at the same time creates this like parallel life

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Speaker 5: and identity crisis is what's happening at that time. You know,

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Speaker 5: I'm experiencing this side. But then I'm supposed to be

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Speaker 5: doing this and I don't know who I'm supposed to be.

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Speaker 5: Then I got to school, go to high school, wasn't bullied,

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Speaker 5: wasn't picked on. We were like the cool kids of school.

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Speaker 5: So I had been going around with non Muslim friends

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Speaker 5: and all like, mostly European, and discovered this crazy thing

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Speaker 5: called house parties and going out and partying. And one

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Speaker 5: time my parents were out of town, I had a

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Speaker 5: house party. My dad had told his brother to check

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Speaker 5: on the house while he was gone. So in the

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Speaker 5: middle of the house party, my uncle basically burst through

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Speaker 5: the door and my life came crashing before my very eyes.

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Speaker 5: And from that religious cultural community perspective, I had dishonored

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Speaker 5: the family, I had defiled the home, and so I

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Speaker 5: kind of panicked and thought to myself, Okay, the only

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Speaker 5: way I'm going to repair this is if I get

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Speaker 5: religious quote unquote. So what I kind of self selected

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Speaker 5: is I said, I'm just going to dive into this

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Speaker 5: world and just embrace it and take it on, and

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Speaker 5: of course I'll live happily ever after. Right, Yeah, that's

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Speaker 5: usually the promises of cults and groups like that. So

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Speaker 5: then in nineteen ninety five, in the summer of ninety five,

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Speaker 5: I would end up going to India and Pakistan. While

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Speaker 5: I was there, I had a chance encounter with the Taliban.

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Speaker 5: This is right, beare before they took over in Afghanistan

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Speaker 5: in the fall of ninety five. I got enamored by them.

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Speaker 5: I subscribed to their ideology. Okay, of like the Western

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Speaker 5: non Muslim you know, enemy and Muslims have to be

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Speaker 5: militant and that's the only way they're going to you know,

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Speaker 5: fix their situation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, take its back in high school, that's the second.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was raised in the Midwest, where a lot

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Speaker 1: of Christian people were homeschooled.

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Speaker 3: Correct, And we were always excited I was school were you?

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Speaker 1: I always forget that, but you also went to normal

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Speaker 1: school for a bit, right, yeah, I went? Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: like we were always excited to play them in sports

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Speaker 1: and stuff because we thought they'd be bad, but then

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Speaker 1: they would actually always be good.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, so.

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Speaker 3: Were any of your community homeschooled?

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting that you were sent to a public

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Speaker 1: school that would be so westernized when you're not even

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Speaker 1: allowed to have these people to your home.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so this this is good.

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Speaker 5: This is gets really interesting because as a lot of

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Speaker 5: people immigrants or you know, come you know, let's say,

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Speaker 5: in my case, immigrants coming to Canada. My parents, and

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Speaker 5: my dad has a nine to five job. At at

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Speaker 5: least especially in the seventies, and at that time when

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Speaker 5: the first generation came, nobody homeschooled their kids, right you,

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Speaker 5: I mean because and I'll be honest, in many cases,

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Speaker 5: who would homeschool the kids? It would be the mother,

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Speaker 5: right And if the mother is not educated and has

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Speaker 5: not been educated, coming from a culture where they don't

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Speaker 5: believe women should be educated, what kind of quality of

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Speaker 5: homeschooling are you going to get? So I wasn't put

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Speaker 5: into high homeschooling, and nobody that was unheard of doing

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Speaker 5: homeschooling at the time. What started to happen is they

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Speaker 5: would have Muslim schools started to get built. And what

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Speaker 5: was interesting in the way, at least in Canada, and

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Speaker 5: you just have to follow the curriculum that they give

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Speaker 5: you and you're fine and you can teach whatever else

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Speaker 5: you want. So these you had these religious schools, like

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Speaker 5: Islamic schools, but they taught the Western curriculum and so

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Speaker 5: that developed. And so now in my story, actually the

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Speaker 5: way things worked out and this is you know, I

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Speaker 5: let me let me just section this out because it's

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Speaker 5: necessary for me. So there is that that whole before

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Speaker 5: I went away and got religious part right, the upbringing,

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Speaker 5: the schooling, whatever. Then I had this moment. Then I

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Speaker 5: kept that up until the nine to eleven attacks happened.

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Speaker 5: That prompted me to go and study Arabic and Islamic

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Speaker 5: studies in Syria in two thousand and two. Lived there

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Speaker 5: for two years, came back to Canada, was recruited by

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Speaker 5: the Intelligence Service and did a bunch of counter terrorism

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Speaker 5: operations and then ices happened, and then I went right

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Speaker 5: back into it and been, you know, was really deeply

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Speaker 5: involved in all of that.

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Speaker 4: So let me bring you back.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, because I got married after I got back

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Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety eight. I got married to a girl

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Speaker 5: that I went to high school with Polish background, the

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Speaker 5: immigrant actually she came to Canada on a boat from

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Speaker 5: poland went to high school. She converted to Islam, and

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Speaker 5: you know, we've we just had our twenty four year anniversary.

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Speaker 5: So I did right, But we ended up homeschooling our

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Speaker 5: kids for a long time. So my oldest kid, like

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Speaker 5: we have five kids, The oldest is twenty three, the

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Speaker 5: youngest is fourteen. The oldest one he only had to

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Speaker 5: do one lab course in high school and then he

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Speaker 5: went to college and then he's just completing his degree

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Speaker 5: there in college. And then the others were like, they're like,

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Speaker 5: we're missing out on the high school experience because I

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Speaker 5: had a crazy party high school life experience and especially

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Speaker 5: having met my wife there. So the kids here from

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Speaker 5: their parents reminiscing but the good times they had in

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Speaker 5: high school. And when COVID hit, the kids were just like,

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Speaker 5: we can't do this anymore.

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Speaker 4: We need to we want to go to school. Yea.

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Speaker 5: So now they've only started to go to high school,

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Speaker 5: but we deliberately conditioned them in a way that they

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Speaker 5: were good with other kids. They had a lot of

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Speaker 5: social interaction with other people, so we kind of, you know,

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Speaker 5: made it easier for them to transition into the school,

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Speaker 5: which they've done and they get crazy amazing marks. Because

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Speaker 5: my wife is so smart and she was doing the

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Speaker 5: homeschooling overwhelmingly, and so that's why I think they're well

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Speaker 5: positioned to be where they are.

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Speaker 2: Listen, my mom almost go me for a big chunk

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Speaker 2: of my childhood, and I was too advanced of a

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Speaker 2: reader for the school that I was in. When I school,

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Speaker 2: they were like, wow, we can't even handle her reading

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Speaker 2: beyond college. Yeah, well, I just want to know more

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Speaker 2: about this period where you first started to become more religious,

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Speaker 2: because prior to this house party, you considered yourself Muslim,

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Speaker 2: I assume, but were you particularly religious? What was that process? Like?

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Speaker 5: I think because it was basically forced on me, Like

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Speaker 5: I went to Kuran school starting from the age of

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Speaker 5: five years old, Okay, And so that's why I described

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Speaker 5: it as this parallel track, and and why I said it.

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Speaker 5: I believe it caused that identity crisis that would hit

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Speaker 5: me later in my life. And what I'm talking about

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Speaker 5: that high school life where yeah, I was religious. I

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Speaker 5: would go to prayers, you know, I wouldn't do all

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Speaker 5: the prayers, you know, and and and in the Muslim context,

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Speaker 5: there's sometimes a lot of activity. So it's like, you know,

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Speaker 5: if you imagine the Christian context, like there's that understanding

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Speaker 5: you go to church once a week. Well, in the

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Speaker 5: Muslim you know, it's like there's five daily prayers, right,

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Speaker 5: and so like the lazy ones go once a week

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Speaker 5: to the Friday weekly sermon thing that they do. But

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Speaker 5: there's an expectation, you know, that you attend a lot

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Speaker 5: more often, and especially from the family that I came from,

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Speaker 5: which is a very religious family, there was an expectation

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Speaker 5: of a lot of activity. So yes, I was going

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Speaker 5: multiple times a week to different events and you know,

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Speaker 5: religious things. But but I was also, you know, a

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Speaker 5: young kid living in the West, and I had all

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Speaker 5: these friends that were because I was spending all day

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Speaker 5: with them, right, So that's what I was.

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Speaker 1: Going to say, Like I grew up similarly, Like I

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Speaker 1: went to school every single day and then we had

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Speaker 1: church three times a week. That was a completely different world.

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Speaker 1: That's like going from nine oh two one zero to

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Speaker 1: like Game of Thrones.

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Speaker 3: You know that we're going to be in.

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Speaker 1: The middle of the apocalypse and like there's the horsemen

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Speaker 1: riding in like a completely different planet. But we only

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Speaker 1: were allowed to read the King James Bible, which essentially

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Speaker 1: makes not a lick of sense to people in the

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Speaker 1: modern world because it's like.

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Speaker 3: The you know, it's not thou.

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Speaker 2: So were you kind of in the same boat.

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Speaker 1: I heard you say something about you didn't necessarily understand

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Speaker 1: everything that was being said at these prayer meetings or

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Speaker 1: meetings that you had to go to.

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Speaker 5: Well, yeah, the way I had described it was in

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Speaker 5: that Quran school that we went to. We were only

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Speaker 5: taught how to recite the Arabic for those liturgical acts

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Speaker 5: of worship. So when you pray the five times, the

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Speaker 5: five daily prayers, there's a sequence that you have to follow,

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Speaker 5: and so you have to read this, and then you

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Speaker 5: have to read that. And so we were only learning

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Speaker 5: how to read. We were not learning what it was saying, right,

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Speaker 5: and so even later on, you know, they because of

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Speaker 5: course the teacher tells you what it means and what

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Speaker 5: it says, and you're not accessing the sources directly. You

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Speaker 5: would need to learn Arabic in order to do that.

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Speaker 5: So again in that Muslim context, you know, the most

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Speaker 5: Muslims are not Arabs, right they Arabic is not the

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Speaker 5: main spoken language. While it is the language of the scriptures,

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Speaker 5: most Arabs, you know, are not Muslims, you know, or

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Speaker 5: most Muslims are not Arabs.

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Speaker 4: So and so people had to learn Arabic and whatever.

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Speaker 5: And that's something you could do later on as advanced study,

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Speaker 5: which I did end up doing eventually, But in that context,

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Speaker 5: you're just learning.

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Speaker 4: You know, mind's like a parrot, you're just reciting like

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Speaker 4: a exactly.

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Speaker 2: So how do you know what you believe.

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Speaker 4: So it's prescribed.

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Speaker 5: It's prescripted, right, they tell you these are the beliefs,

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Speaker 5: right in the Muslim context, it's God is one. You know,

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Speaker 5: there are angels, there are revealed books. There there are

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Speaker 5: human messengers, and there's a day of resurrection, right that

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Speaker 5: we all we're all going to be brought forth before

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Speaker 5: ever the mine judge.

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Speaker 4: So there, it's prescribed, right.

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Speaker 5: These you know, you read it from the book saying

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Speaker 5: these are the articles of faith, and you just you

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Speaker 5: just accept them. Right, that's your that's the whole that's

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Speaker 5: the whole point about even Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Amish read everything in Dutch and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them complain that they have no idea what they're

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Speaker 1: even talking about. And it's kept that way, I know,

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Speaker 1: and in their world on purpose, because then they haven't

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Speaker 1: they just believe what people are telling them.

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Speaker 2: That's not a control over analyzing the beliefs.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that was kind of the same

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Speaker 1: thing that was happening in your faith.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, it's just uh, you know, it's it's just

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Speaker 5: a way for them to reinforce the beliefs, right that

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Speaker 5: you just you just you state it, you reinforce it

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Speaker 5: over and over and over, and especially when you're a

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Speaker 5: young child, you're you're kind of, you know, in that

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Speaker 5: vulnerable state where you're just going to take whatever is

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Speaker 5: being given to you.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean you're kind of being conditioned.

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Speaker 2: There is a Mormon list of articles called the Articles

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Speaker 2: of Faith. I haven't even heard that phrase in so long,

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Speaker 2: So that's super interesting. So you got married.

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Speaker 4: When you were how old two?

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Speaker 2: The process of becoming more extreme in your religion, this

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Speaker 2: happened while you were with your wife, right.

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Speaker 4: Oh, good catch, good catch.

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Speaker 5: Few people get that. It's mostly the women who picked

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Speaker 5: that up. Your wife thinking at the time, or what

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Speaker 5: were you telling her or your your partner?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 5: Interesting is I never told her exactly what ideology I

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Speaker 5: was engaging with. I would just tell her generically, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to the mosque. I'm I'm going to you know,

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Speaker 5: hang out with the brothers, right, and you know, we

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Speaker 5: just do religious things, right, that's what else.

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Speaker 4: And that's the thing most people don't know.

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Speaker 5: I could just say something like that and it would

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Speaker 5: it would pass past the muster.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 5: But then later on it was funny because when I

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Speaker 5: was with the Intelligence Service, when they finally I was

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Speaker 5: recruited by them. I told her that I had been

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Speaker 5: you know, these were the kinds of brothers I was

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Speaker 5: hanging around with. And she said to me, she goes,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's a good thing you didn't tell me then,

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Speaker 5: because then, like I would not have pursued any relationship,

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Speaker 5: because it's like, why would I pursue relationship with this

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Speaker 5: guy who is not, you know, serious about life. And

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Speaker 5: I mentioned that because when I was initially recruited, I

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Speaker 5: could not tell my wife specifically exactly what I was doing.

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Speaker 5: And I literally was getting paid in envelopes of cash,

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Speaker 5: and like it was like a you know, a covert

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Speaker 5: meat and blah blah blah.

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Speaker 4: And and I remember like I had put the kids

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Speaker 4: to bed.

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Speaker 5: One night and and then the phone went off and

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Speaker 5: I had to go suddenly, and I was like, look, honey,

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Speaker 5: I can't tell you, but I promise I will tell

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Speaker 5: you eventually, but I'll be back right and she's like,

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Speaker 5: put the bad night, you got.

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Speaker 4: To go out.

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Speaker 5: So then eventually the agents you know, introduced themselves to

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Speaker 5: her and said, look, he is, in fact, you know,

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Speaker 5: working with the government, blah blah blah. And she was

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Speaker 5: just like, oh, okay, good I was hoping it wasn't a

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Speaker 5: drug dealer, so so there were some things that I

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Speaker 5: had kept, you know.

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Speaker 2: On the data. The show is sponsored by Better Help.

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Speaker 1: How much time do you spend on yourself in a

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Speaker 1: given week versus how much time do you spend on

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Speaker 1: other people?

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Speaker 3: How do you balance the two.

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Speaker 2: It's so easy to get caught up in what everyone

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Speaker 2: else needs from you and never take a moment to

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Speaker 2: think about what you need from yourself. For example, me

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, I really needed to talk

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Speaker 2: to someone about how much anxiety I was having about

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Speaker 2: my perfectionism stuff.

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Speaker 1: Ugh. But when we spend all of our time giving

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Speaker 1: it can leave us feeling stretched, thin and burned out.

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Speaker 1: Therapy can give you the tools to find more balance

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Speaker 1: in your life so you can keep supporting others without

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Speaker 1: leaving yourself behind.

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Speaker 2: And I really, I know we say it all the time,

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Speaker 2: but I'm gonna say it again. Everyone should go to therapy.

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Speaker 2: What I love about Better Help is that you can

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00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,960
Speaker 2: so easily find a different therapist if one is not

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00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: working for you, because it's very important to make sure

441
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442
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,680
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443
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444
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445
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446
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447
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448
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449
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450
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,760
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451
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452
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,119
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453
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 3: I need to be walked through this a little bit.

454
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: So you have a house party. It sounded pretty epic.

455
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 1: It sounded like you and your wife were both like

456
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: metal heads, which am I getting that right?

457
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 4: Yeah?

458
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 2: So you guys feel like dope as fuck?

459
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 3: You have this house party. It's chill, it's cool. You

460
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 3: get caught.

461
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 1: How dare you have these people to are home? You

462
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 1: are feeling guilty?

463
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 3: What have I done? What's the next move? You?

464
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,080
Speaker 1: You literally? Did you move literally to a different country

465
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 1: or what was like like.

466
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: You're in Canada? Yeah, getting more religious? And then yeah

467
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: what happened?

468
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 5: So in if I can nerd out for a moment.

469
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 5: In riding, vitalization theory and radicalization can let's say, simply

470
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 5: be defined as the psychological process whereby people become increasingly

471
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 5: extreme in their views. Okay, it's a process. They're becomingly

472
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:18,160
Speaker 5: increasingly becoming increasing the extreme. There are two outputs of radicalization.

473
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,399
Speaker 5: Extremism where you basically believe that violence in the public

474
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 5: space is okay, and violence extremism, where doing public violence

475
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 5: is okay.

476
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 4: Right.

477
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 5: So, one of the things that precipitates the process of

478
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 5: radicalization is what they call a cognitive opening, something that

479
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 5: happens that is so episodic for you, so acute for

480
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 5: your state and mind at that moment, that it makes

481
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 5: you receptive to views that you would not normally be

482
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 5: receptive to.

483
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 3: That is so interesting.

484
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: That's when when people join cults that we've found, so

485
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense.

486
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, yeah, death of a loved one, near death experience,

487
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 5: born again type experiences.

488
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 4: Right.

489
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 5: So these are these are human psychological experiences that we

490
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 5: all have. It's very fascinating because just for a quick

491
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 5: little side note, because I've came in you know, I

492
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 5: came into this through the religious extremism Muslim supremacist groups,

493
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 5: and then I started to see that in other groups

494
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 5: you have very very similar things. The mechanisms are the same.

495
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 5: They'll it'll just have a unique cultural component to it,

496
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 5: depending on where you're from and what your upbringing background is,

497
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 5: but the core elements remain the same.

498
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 4: So here I am.

499
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 5: I have this cognitive opening, I have this trauma moment,

500
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 5: you know, for a seventeen eighteen year old kid who

501
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,159
Speaker 5: in front of all his friends.

502
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 4: It was kick ass.

503
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 5: It was so kick ass that when my after my

504
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 5: uncle had barged in and there was this like the

505
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 5: house that I was living in. It had the veranda

506
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 5: that would go around the house like two thirds of

507
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 5: the house, and then there was a balcony in the back.

508
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,320
Speaker 5: So along the front, down the side was a balcony

509
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,159
Speaker 5: slash veranda, and in the back was like a larger

510
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 5: balcony with like ten feet and then ground level below.

511
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 5: People were literally jumping off of the balcony and the veranda.

512
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 5: To the point that what had happened was so the

513
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 5: moment of my uncle bursts through the door, I see

514
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 5: him and I almost piss my pants. Okay, I felt

515
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 5: like I was gonna piss myself. I had to consciously

516
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 5: hold it back. That told you the fear that I felt. Okay,

517
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 5: because I knew the ship that I was going to

518
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 5: be in. So he comes he starts bellowing, you know,

519
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 5: what are these what is this? What's going on?

520
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 4: This?

521
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 2: And that.

522
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 5: Now I'm thinking to myself, oh my god, wait till

523
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 5: my parents find out.

524
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 4: I'm in deep, deep shit. Everyone is fleeing.

525
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 5: My girlfriend at the time is out there and everyone's

526
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 5: panicking and they don't know what's going on. And I

527
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 5: basically I told my uncle. He gets on the phone,

528
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 5: he's calling the uncles, the other uncles. He's calling for reinforcements,

529
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 5: the uncles. That's telling me it's gonna spread. A lot

530
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 5: more people are going to know. So that's what that shame,

531
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 5: the embarrassment, all that sorts of going and then they

532
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 5: will talk about it, and oh my god. And so

533
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 5: I remember telling my uncle, let me just go outside

534
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 5: and tell them to leave. And then I actually I

535
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 5: took off. I just started running. I got my friends

536
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 5: picked me up, you know, off the street. I took off. Yeah,

537
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 5: It's like it was like a tactical withdrawal. And I

538
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 5: called my cousin, the daughter of my uncle, and I

539
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 5: was like, look, I need to lay low for three days.

540
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 4: I'm not going to come back.

541
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 5: I'm okay, I'm safe, but I just can't face the music, right,

542
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 5: So yeah, and so then I came back and then

543
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,239
Speaker 5: I had like six uncles around me, and I had

544
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 5: to explain myself. And so this drawn out process of

545
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 5: self accountability if you want to call it that, but

546
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 5: just facing the music, that's what started to tell me, Okay,

547
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 5: the only way I'm going to repair this or have

548
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 5: a fighting chance is if I declare that I'm going

549
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 5: to get religious and so and so in that community

550
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 5: upbringing that I had, there was an avenue for me

551
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 5: to do that. It was a group called the Tublique Jamat.

552
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 5: It's very well known. They go from moss to mosque,

553
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 5: they stay in the mosque. It's like an immersion program.

554
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 5: And so one of the most the best thing you

555
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 5: could do is spend four months with them, two months

556
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 5: in India and two months in Pakistan. And if you

557
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 5: think about it from the perspective of a cult, and

558
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 5: I don't know if I would call it a cult,

559
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 5: I think it has a lot of cult like traits

560
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 5: and behaviors. And certainly there are people who I've met

561
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 5: who belong to the group who are in a cult, okay,

562
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 5: meaning if you think about it regulating day to day behaviors,

563
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 5: what you eat, when you eat it, who you eat

564
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 5: it with, asking permission to use the bathroom, to take

565
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 5: a shower. All of that stuff is regulated on day

566
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 5: to day from the time you get up to the

567
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 5: time you go to bed. Two months in India, two

568
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 5: months in Pakistan. So now you can see this conditioning.

569
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 5: You know, you have this cognitive opening. You're seeking this

570
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,239
Speaker 5: new identity that's going to be your salvation, and you

571
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 5: go into it one hundred and ten percent.

572
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: It's like going on a mission. I just keep comparing

573
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 2: it to Mormonism because that's my fame of reference. But

574
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 2: so this is like a standard thing. Is this like

575
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: religion wide or is this particular? Churches move to go

576
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,719
Speaker 2: to India and Pakistan two months two months.

577
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 5: So what they do is do you have all these

578
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 5: mosques spread around the world, and those mosques are run

579
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 5: by different kinds of organizations whatever, and most of them

580
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 5: are are okay with the Tabli Jamat because they're not political.

581
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 4: They don't you know there.

582
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 5: It's very interesting because they're unlike all the other political

583
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 5: Islamist Islamic groups. These guys are not political, so they're

584
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 5: able to operate within any mosque. And in India, and

585
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 5: Pakistan they have a whole network of mosques that they

586
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 5: don't They don't charge you money, right, it's not like

587
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 5: you got to get your own ticket. But it's not

588
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 5: like you gotta pay for this. Like you you live

589
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 5: in the mosque, you stay in the mosque day and night.

590
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

591
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 4: And then you just move.

592
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 5: From different mosques to different mosque and that's it, and

593
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 5: you basically go onto the local community. Do you let

594
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 5: people know we're here, Come and listen to our lectures.

595
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 5: We're at the mosque.

596
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 4: We'll see you.

597
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 1: Mixed with Mormonism going door to door, mixed with something

598
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: else I haven't figured out yet.

599
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,640
Speaker 2: But well, can you say the name again? I don't

600
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 2: want to type spell it out.

601
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 4: Yep.

602
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 5: It's called Tabligue Jamat. So it's like Tango Alpha Bravo

603
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 5: Lima India Golf Hotel and then Jamat Juliet Alpha Michael

604
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 5: Alpha Tango and it is.

605
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 4: It did reminded me.

606
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 5: It's funny to say that Mormon Church of Lati Day Saints, right,

607
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 5: because before I went away and got super religious, I

608
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 5: was always engaging Christians in debate, and so whenever the

609
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 5: Mormons would knock at my door, I would love it.

610
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 4: I was the keen guy. You probably met me in

611
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 4: your missions.

612
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, you want to talk about the Bible, Yeah,

613
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,719
Speaker 5: let me get mine and you know, and so it

614
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 5: is similar to that. It's they only go to Muslims

615
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 5: homes though, so the Tobli Jama does not believe in

616
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 5: proselytizing to non Muslims.

617
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: Gotcha.

618
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 4: They believe in just preaching to Muslims to be more

619
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 4: observant of their religion.

620
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: Gotcha. And can you explain the structure within Islam of

621
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: like there are different branch off, like more specific sects

622
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: of the religion, right, how does it work exactly?

623
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 5: I guess you can say there's two two main sects. Yeah,

624
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 5: the Sunney sect which is the majority, which is like

625
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 5: eighty percent, and then the Shia sect.

626
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 4: Okay, basically you.

627
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 5: Know it's a early schisms. There was the prophet pc Eponymy.

628
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 5: He passed away and there was a dispute as to

629
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 5: who should be the leader. So most of the most Muslims,

630
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 5: the Sunneys believe that there were four klyphs. There's Shia believe. No,

631
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 5: the first three are not legitimate, only the fourth one

632
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 5: is so within the within them those two major sects

633
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 5: you have, I guess you could. I'm trying to use

634
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 5: the right word because I don't want to say this

635
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 5: sect is not Muslim. So if I say, like it's

636
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 5: a Muslim sect, I mean that their their frame of

637
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 5: reference is based on Sunni Islam, or is based on

638
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 5: Shia Islam.

639
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 3: Okay.

640
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, as a Sunni, I do believe the

641
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 4: Shia are wrong.

642
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 5: But you know, those are political disputes, and I think

643
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,719
Speaker 5: we all generally, we all do believe the same thing.

644
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 5: There's only one God, and you know, the Quran is

645
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 5: the scripture, and blah blah blah.

646
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 4: The rest they differ on.

647
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 5: So for example, one way to look at it, it

648
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 5: gets really technical because within Sunni Islam you have four

649
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 5: schools of law. You also have Sufi orders. In the

650
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 5: Shia side, you have a few schools of law. So

651
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 5: for example, the Ayatola. When we hear about the Ayatola

652
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 5: in Iran, so Ayatollah means the sign of God, okay.

653
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 5: And so the Shia believe that that human representative is

654
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: like basically the divine representative on earth us. Their interpretation

655
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 5: is is divinely sanctioned interpretation, which the Sunnis. We don't

656
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 5: ever say a human being can have that level of

657
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 5: divine sanction, so we we reject that god.

658
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: Which one is more strict if you had to choose.

659
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 5: They're strict, you know what? In in I guess you

660
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: can say this for christ Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Let's

661
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 5: focus on the three Abrahamics, you know. And I'm kind

662
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 5: of dealing with this, you know, because I've come to

663
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 5: realize that these ancient Abrahamic religions, they are patriarchal. Right,

664
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 5: you can say that women have rights here, like Islam,

665
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 5: there's actually a good argument that women were given women

666
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 5: were given rights, you know, way back when women weren't

667
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 5: even considered human beings like one of the things. For example,

668
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 5: Like in Islam, we don't we don't promote the idea

669
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 5: that Eve ten to add him for example, and double.

670
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: As a guy, and he's the one who tempted to

671
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: play so it's like he did.

672
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: Wow.

673
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: I never thought about that.

674
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: I just thought of it yesterday in the shower and

675
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god.

676
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: Hey, you uncorrect it, Megan.

677
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 5: You will have liberal outputs, you will have strict Traditionalists

678
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 5: tend to be.

679
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 4: Strict okay, right, because your your your.

680
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 5: Frame of reference is a time when you know, people

681
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: were like a thousand, four hundred years ago, at least

682
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: in the Islamic context. You know, this is like it

683
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 5: was a religion that came to people who were pagans.

684
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 5: It was the idea that there's only one God and

685
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 5: be good to people.

686
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: Right.

687
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 5: You know that there's a famous I love the quote

688
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 5: in Judaism. It's it's replicated in the New Testament. But

689
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 5: the Roman soldier comes to uh helll the elder and says,

690
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 5: teach me the law, standing on one leg. And so

691
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 5: he gets on one leg and he says, treat you know,

692
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 5: treat your neighbor the way you want to be treated.

693
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 4: That is the Torah. All the rest is commentary. Now

694
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 4: go and learn. Right.

695
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: So there there's a core goodness that all religions, I believe, teach.

696
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 5: But then people get complicated and so it does get

697
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 5: strict quote unquote. Right, okay, So you have the strictness

698
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: in both sects, but you also have.

699
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 2: The liberals different yeah right, okay, So you are in

700
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: all of these different mosques in India and Pakistan, and

701
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: what is that experience like, are you feeling very connected

702
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 2: to the other people you're meeting, Like, how does this

703
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 2: make you more religious?

704
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

705
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 5: So what they do is that little program they have

706
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 5: four months, because they have different programs you can do.

707
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 5: The big one is the four months. Then they might

708
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 5: suggest forty days a year. They might and then it

709
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 5: goes three days a month and two and a half

710
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 5: hours a day in the mosque. Okay, that's their prescription.

711
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 5: So I know when I'm going when I self select,

712
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 5: and I say to them here in Toronto where they

713
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,959
Speaker 5: operate as well, I want to go four months. So

714
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 5: they there are others who have been convinced to go

715
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 5: four months, and they assemble a group that they're going

716
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 5: to send and this is the student jamat that's going

717
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 5: on four months. Other attendees are other kids just like me.

718
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 4: All right.

719
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 5: So I remember meeting this one guy who was like

720
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 5: the badass of his area and I had heard of him,

721
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 5: and I was the badass in my area and he

722
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 5: had heard of me.

723
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 4: Right, And we meet up at the airport. That's wild.

724
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: So just like two teenagers from two different high schools

725
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,919
Speaker 1: who have been like pretty normal lives or like we're

726
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: going into a whole new world.

727
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 3: I said, culture shock.

728
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: Maybe that's not the right word because you were going

729
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: every night, but it seems like you're entering a completely

730
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: different world from where I'm sitting.

731
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

732
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 5: Well, I had family in India, so I had visited

733
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 5: India like three times, and I mean we would stay

734
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 5: there for I don't think I stayed there longer than

735
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 5: three weeks, right, And it was always like, so, I've

736
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 5: been to India, I know how life is over there, whatever,

737
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 5: but not four months of it, right, Like I had

738
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 5: never done that. So while yes, I had some familiarity

739
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 5: with the culture directly, it was still a culture shock.

740
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 4: So that does still apply.

741
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 5: And then and so you had other there were adults

742
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 5: with us, there were you know, these younger guys. And

743
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 5: then so we meet up at the airport and and

744
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 5: you're just throwing yourself into it, right, like you're like,

745
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 5: I do have a general idea like staying at the

746
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 5: mosque all day, like you know, the lectures and everything

747
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 5: else like that.

748
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 4: That was something that I was kind of accustomed to.

749
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 5: But I always make a joke because I'm Canadian and

750
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 5: I'm raised here and I don't mind the winter, Like

751
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 5: I'm okay with gold. It's the blazing heat that I

752
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,479
Speaker 5: cannot stand. So I say that while my people came

753
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 5: from really hot environments, I struggled a lot.

754
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 4: Like but it got.

755
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 5: Crazy hot in India that year. It was like I

756
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 5: go by celsius. I don't know what you guys do here,

757
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 5: but like, even if I do a celsius to fahrenheit,

758
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 5: it was actually, i'll tell you right now, fifty one

759
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 5: degrees celsius it hit in India, which is one hundred

760
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 5: and twenty three.

761
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 4: Oh, I know you.

762
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, the locals were dying while they were there. Yeah,

763
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 5: it was like it was tough. But just your question.

764
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 5: You're just meeting other people, you know.

765
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: Uh.

766
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 5: Sometimes they mix you up, so they might send you

767
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 5: off to one place for ten days with a group X,

768
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 5: and then you'll come back to the headquarters and then

769
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 5: you'll go off for another ten days with group Y.

770
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 3: Where you're sleeping is it cut.

771
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 4: In the mosque just on the floor bedding, you have

772
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 4: a sleeping bag.

773
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 3: And what time do you wake up in the morning?

774
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 4: Morning prayer is like five something.

775
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 5: It depends on the time of year because of just

776
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 5: daylight hours, but generally ridiculously early, you know, five am.

777
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 5: And then the late night prayer will probably be like

778
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 5: nine pm or ten pm. You have your dinner, you

779
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 5: go to sleep. You probably get up for extra in

780
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 5: the middle of the night prayers which are at three am.

781
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 5: Oh wow, it's just ridiculous, Like you're just very sleep

782
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 5: you do get you did well, your sleep gets broken up.

783
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: So it's actually there is nap time after the afternoon prayer.

784
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: So if you think about Yesta time in Middle East

785
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 5: or even Latin America, obviously when the sun is at

786
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 5: its peak and just dropping, that is sometimes in that period.

787
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 3: I also honor that.

788
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 5: Well, I'm like, I'm spoiled now, like I'll take this

789
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 5: straight sleep, thank you very much.

790
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, for most of us, learning a second language in

791
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 2: high school or college wasn't exactly a high point in

792
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: our academic careers. I took Spanish for three or four years,

793
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 2: and I think I remember how to ask for bread.

794
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 3: Sorry, that's really funny.

795
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 1: Now, thanks to Babbel, the language learning app that sold

796
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,720
Speaker 1: more than ten million subscriptions, there's a fun and easy

797
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,160
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798
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,359
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799
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: in the real world. And I chose French because as

800
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: we all know I wish I was Parisian.

801
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,000
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802
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: learn a new language on the go, with expertly crafted

803
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Speaker 1: lessons built around real life.

804
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,840
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805
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806
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:10,760
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807
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,640
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808
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,919
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809
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,520
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810
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,080
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811
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,840
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812
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,920
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813
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814
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 2: Babel Language for Life. Okay, so in Pakistan you end

815
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: up in the same city with people who are in

816
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: the Taliban correct, right, tell us about that experience.

817
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 5: I am walking around the locality and with a local

818
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 5: fixer guy who spoke because I spoke I did. I

819
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 5: do speak Urdu, but in the place that I was

820
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 5: going to, they speak their push tunes, so they speak

821
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 5: Dari and Pushtu, which I do and speak. But a

822
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 5: lot of people who live in those areas also speak

823
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,439
Speaker 5: or do. So if you come from that area, you'll

824
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 5: know all three. But if you from where I came from,

825
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 5: I was only exposed to one. So I have this

826
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 5: local guy with me. We're walking around the area. I

827
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 5: see there's like this mud compound and there's like this

828
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,919
Speaker 5: foliage growing out of it, And where the foliage grew

829
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 5: past the wall, at the foot of the wall, it

830
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 5: created shade. And so in the shade I could see

831
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 5: these guys sitting there in a row, and so I said, oh,

832
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 5: as part of my tubliqu jamat thing to go and

833
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 5: talk to people, convinced them to go to Musjid. I

834
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 5: went and said, hey, let's go and talk to those guys.

835
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 5: So as we came close, I realized I thought they

836
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 5: were just locals. And but then I saw that they

837
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 5: had weapons with them at their feet, right, like belts

838
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 5: of ammunition, rocket propul grenades, you know, stuff that I

839
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: had seen, you know, in just photos or whatever. So

840
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 5: I realized, oh, okay, like these guys are serious. I

841
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 5: didn't know who they were or whatever, so I would

842
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 5: I said to them, brothers, you know, And this was

843
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 5: our spiel, our success in this life, and the next

844
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 5: depends on following the commandments of God as shown by

845
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 5: the way the prophet Peace be upon him. You know,

846
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 5: a Jamatis here from Toronto, Canada. We're inviting you to

847
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 5: come and after this prayer, we will have these lectures.

848
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 5: So they kind of look and then the guy spoke,

849
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 5: you know, told them, and then they all looked at

850
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 5: each other, and then he spoke back, and then he says, well,

851
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 5: if you want, if for Muslims to be successful in

852
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 5: this life and the next, you do it with this,

853
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 5: and he picked up the AK forty seven. Now I

854
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 5: want you to pause for a moment, and I want

855
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 5: you to think about this kid, who's who's coming from

856
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 5: that background. Yes, I'm referring to myself in the third person,

857
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 5: but I'm trying to be self aware of what. You know,

858
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 5: you see the conditions, you see what I went through,

859
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 5: this sense of identity, religious compulsion, this Western life. It

860
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 5: got me into problems. I thought I have to eschew

861
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 5: it completely and go one hundred percent, you know, the

862
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 5: other direction. And now it's giving me a sense of

863
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 5: belonging to this much larger, powerful, strong group that you

864
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 5: are something. Now you're part of something, bigger and greater,

865
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 5: and for a kid who didn't know who he was

866
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 5: and where he belonged. This firmly helped me in answering that,

867
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 5: or so I thought at the time, because again that

868
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 5: teenage brain, right, you're still still not fully functionally functional cognitively,

869
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 5: you're not thinking it through completely. So for somebody in

870
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 5: that stage, in that moment, yeah.

871
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: I mean eighteen year olds like video games where they

872
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: shoot things to have somebody just hold up a gun

873
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 1: in real life and be like, like, I'm.

874
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 4: Powered to join the military? Yeah? Nineteen?

875
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: I mean, were these guys older than you? Like, did

876
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: they seem like people you would look up to and

877
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: kind of cool and masculine?

878
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 5: I imagine definitely that older cooler what do you call that?

879
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 4: Masculine hierarchies?

880
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 5: Like so like the badass, the cool guy, you know,

881
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,080
Speaker 5: like they looked like, you know, they had been they

882
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 5: they looked like they had been through some shit.

883
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 3: Shit what year was this again?

884
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 4: Nine?

885
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 3: Got it?

886
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 4: Yeah? So did you justly.

887
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: Start interacting with them more? Like how did it kind

888
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:12,919
Speaker 2: of grow from there?

889
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 4: Good? Good follow ups?

890
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 5: Because they I think they thought we may have been

891
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 5: spies or something because we were I mean especially even

892
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 5: though I might my skin might look the same color, Bud.

893
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 5: I mean, if you're not from there, they know.

894
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 3: You're not from the Shining through.

895
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, they can see like how well your teeth are.

896
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, they look at like your socks, your like your pants,

897
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 5: Like clearly this is a foreigner, right. So I think

898
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 5: they were suspicious because they did come to the mosque,

899
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 5: that three of them came with their AK forty seven's.

900
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 4: Wow.

901
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 5: And then they were talking to like the local people

902
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 5: who were there, and you know, I could see they

903
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 5: were looking over at a couple of us, and so

904
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 5: it was like, clearly, I think they thought we were

905
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 5: But the local Tobiliga guys explained to them.

906
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 4: They yeah, look we're the local guys.

907
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 5: You know, they came from to us, from the headquarters,

908
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 5: so everything is legit.

909
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 4: But then that was it.

910
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 5: They you know, they let us fire their AK forty seven's.

911
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 5: That was cool, and then then never saw them again.

912
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 5: But the idea of projecting Muslim strength through militancy, that

913
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 5: was that was the thing, especially for young you know,

914
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 5: testosterone driven young men looking for adventure.

915
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 4: Like it's the perfect storm for young people.

916
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: Yep, the seed was planted, you know, it's easy to

917
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 2: look at strictly economic circumstances and be like, oh, this

918
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: is the cause of terrorism. Obviously, it's a lot more

919
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: complicated than that. Can you speak to some of the

920
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: socio political factors that can kind of contribute to boys

921
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 2: and young men being drawn to this?

922
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, excellent, because whenever I usually I do a lot

923
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 5: of training around radicalization for you know, different audiences, and

924
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 5: I always say, never be equivocal in your attribution so

925
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 5: to say this causes terrorism, especially on terrorism specifically, So

926
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 5: it's always a multi factor approach that one has to take.

927
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 5: And so I list some things like, for example, grievances, right, So,

928
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 5: so let's look at it this way.

929
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 4: I love this quote. It's by Peter Neuman.

930
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 5: He was a former director of the International Center for

931
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 5: the Study of Radicalization, and it goes, ideology without grievances

932
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 5: doesn't resonate, and grievances without ideology are not acted upon. Okay,

933
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 5: ideology without grievances doesn't resonate, doesn't appeal to the mind,

934
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 5: and grievances without ideology are not acted upon because ideology

935
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 5: are action enabling ideas. It's not just a set of

936
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 5: beliefs that you have Okay, So that's one formula. Here's

937
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 5: another formula, and this one's mine. At times, ideology and

938
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 5: you can say religious ideology or political ideology or political

939
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 5: religious ideology. At times ideology is a driver of violent extremism,

940
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 5: but at other times it's just a passenger with other

941
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 5: psychosocial factors at the wheel. Ok it's another way to

942
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 5: look at it. And so you want to see that, Okay.

943
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 5: And so these are some articles of faith, if you will.

944
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 5: In radicalization theory, it's a process, right, Radicalization is a process.

945
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 5: What is true for one person in one context may

946
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,280
Speaker 5: not necessarily be true for another person in the same context.

947
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: Right.

948
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 5: So there, it's a very unique process. If you think

949
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 5: about how unique we are as individuals. Some people, you know,

950
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 5: you might come from a trauma background, There might be

951
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 5: identity issues. What about adventure sometimes, right, as we heard

952
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 5: in Batman, right, Master Bruce, some people just want to see.

953
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 4: The world burn. So think about adventure.

954
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 5: It's got nothing to do with ideology, like some cognitive

955
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 5: some intellectual pursuit or something. You got nothing to do

956
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 5: with the economics of it, right, because you will get

957
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 5: you know, in cases, I mean, I know cases where

958
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 5: two brothers in the same family, one becomes a terrorist,

959
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 5: the other becomes a doctor. Right, So, so always think

960
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 5: about it as a highly unique process and every single

961
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 5: one of these factors will play a role. So never say, oh,

962
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 5: poverty causes terrorism, or you know, ideology causes You have

963
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 5: to say, well, there's a number of things that could

964
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 5: apply at any given time. And like I said, what

965
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 5: is true for one person is not true for another.

966
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 5: Let me just add one more thing because I like

967
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 5: to be like educational about this. When we say mental health, right,

968
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 5: oh oh this, you know so and so committed a

969
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 5: terrorist attack mass shooting at a school, they're mentally ill.

970
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 5: What does that mean he had mental health issues? What

971
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 5: does that mean exactly? Do we are we talking about

972
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 5: extreme end mental disease meaning straight up schizophrenia? You know,

973
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 5: if you're in a psychotic state, you're found not criminally responsible.

974
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 4: Well let's walk that back a bit.

975
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 5: What if there's like a personality disorder that it could

976
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 5: be you know, online personality or this or that. How

977
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 5: does that affect a person's decision making skills, right, their

978
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 5: impulse control? What about somebody who you know has fetal

979
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 5: all called spectrum disorder. I worked a case well, when

980
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 5: the whole ISIS thing was really happening from twenty twelve

981
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 5: to twenty eighteen and people were being recruited. We worked

982
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 5: with this young young woman who I didn't know at

983
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,720
Speaker 5: the time, but she had field all call spectrum disorder.

984
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 5: She was isolated from her peer circle. She was online

985
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 5: like sixteen hours a day. Her parents were not in

986
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 5: her life, probably because I mean they were clearly consumed.

987
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 5: The mother was clearly drinking well, so I don't know

988
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 5: if they lost custody or whatever. But she was now

989
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 5: living with her grandparent a grandparent, so you have a

990
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 5: generational divide, physically and geographically isolated from peers. Now online

991
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 5: boom the ISIS recruiters got to her, and we prevented

992
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 5: her from going to join them in Syria where she

993
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 5: would have just been destroyed. So it just tells us

994
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 5: that you have to look at all these things and

995
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 5: very be very detailed in does this person have a

996
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 5: professional diagnosis in anxiety disorder or something, because that will

997
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 5: cause issues. The organization that I worked for, Parents for Peace,

998
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 5: we've been seeing people on the autism spectrum get involved

999
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 5: in extremism because if you imagine, you know, being very

1000
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 5: task oriented and very obsessive over certain cognitive things and feeling.

1001
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: Lonely. Yeah, yeah, so huge.

1002
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 5: So these are these are all the things that you

1003
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 5: want to look at when answering you know, what causes radicalization.

1004
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 2: I have to be clear, we're not you are not

1005
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 2: saying that mental health issues cause raticalization, but they can

1006
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: contribute to there being a cognitive opening, like you were

1007
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 2: talking about earlier, depending on all what else is going

1008
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 2: on around them externally, right.

1009
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, like exactly, Like the mental health is just

1010
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 5: it's a it's a broad term that we use, right,

1011
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 5: and and what do we mean by that? Is what

1012
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 5: I'm saying, Like, especially in this violence and extremism context,

1013
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 5: because somebody that has a depressive disorder or of some kind,

1014
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 5: the way in which they interpret the world around them

1015
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 5: is obviously going to be different than somebody who's not

1016
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 5: like that.

1017
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 4: So it's very very unique and individualized.

1018
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 5: And just look at the things that impact a person's

1019
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 5: decision making process.

1020
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 1: Well, do you think the fact that it's one hundred

1021
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: and twenty three degrees and pass any other I Mean,

1022
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: it sounds tongue in cheek, but that's well.

1023
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: Violence rises in the summer and one of the theories

1024
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,439
Speaker 2: is because he impacts people's mental state.

1025
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 5: Okay, I like this because look at the equator and

1026
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 5: look there currently and look at how many conflicts are

1027
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 5: underway as we speak.

1028
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: Hmmm, that's interesting.

1029
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 4: Yep, that's really right now as we speak.

1030
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 2: So so climate change is going to make everything worse.

1031
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 4: In all, it's going to make the crazy ways.

1032
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so you see the cool guys with the

1033
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: guns and you're like, yeah, that's badass. What sort of

1034
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: transpires from there? Like, how long of a period was

1035
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 2: it that you consider yourself to have been radical in

1036
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 2: your thinking?

1037
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1038
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 5: I usually say ninety five to two thousand and one,

1039
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 5: and I like to I put a you know, affirm

1040
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 5: date on that, because people who get out of extremism

1041
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 5: it's never a single event. It's a collection and accruing

1042
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 5: of experiences and feelings and sentiments, and at some point

1043
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 5: there is like a clear separation point. So I would

1044
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 5: say ninety five is when I begin to engage in this.

1045
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 5: I've you know, I've been exposed to this group. Now

1046
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 5: I'm telling myself, yeah, I need to become more militant.

1047
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 5: So the group, the Tublique Jamont, they are not about

1048
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 5: that at all, and so they tell me.

1049
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 4: They're like, we this is not what we believe. So

1050
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 4: don't you know what I mean, Like, this is not

1051
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 4: our thing.

1052
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 5: So I leave the Tabilique Jamont and I join up

1053
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,320
Speaker 5: with another sect, if you will, which is the Salafi

1054
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 5: sect right Solafist. Sometimes the word Wahabi is used as

1055
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 5: synonymous to that, like a Wahabi or a Slaphist or

1056
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 5: so so that Selafies are very strict. They basically believe

1057
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 5: that God is frozen in an Arabian desert in the

1058
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:20,760
Speaker 5: seventh century.

1059
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 4: That's that's their view of Islam. It's just it's funny.

1060
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 5: I just find it so like ridiculously, you know, I

1061
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 5: can say blasphemous because it's like, that's what you believe.

1062
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 4: Like God wanted us to live like Arabs lived in

1063
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 4: the Arabian Peninsula.

1064
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,479
Speaker 3: Come on, come on, Oh.

1065
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 4: I believed it.

1066
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 5: I I totally this is exactly what I believe. But

1067
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 5: now when I look at it, it's like so ridiculous,

1068
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 5: you know. So, but at that time, the Salafist worldview

1069
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 5: was that's what solidified that. It was all about excluding

1070
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 5: and excommunicating other people. So again, back in the process

1071
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 5: of radicalization, and and cult behavior. It is that isolating

1072
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 5: of a per into now the group. And this is

1073
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 5: in social psychology what they call in group outgroup dynamics,

1074
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 5: So the psychology how it impacts a person when they

1075
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 5: willingly believe like belong to a group, and what they

1076
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 5: will do to prove that they do belong in the group,

1077
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 5: and what they will avoid so that they're not kicked

1078
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 5: out of the group so that they're not outgrouped. You're

1079
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 5: hanging around with these people, we don't accept that they're

1080
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 5: against our creed this and that you can't be our

1081
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 5: group if you hang around with So whether it's you

1082
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 5: can't hang around with non Muslims if you want to

1083
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 5: be in a group, or you can't hang around with

1084
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 5: non Catholics or apostates or whatever term they use. So

1085
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 5: there is a lot of in grouping that's occurring at

1086
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 5: this time, a lot of outgrouping. Oh, you're not legitimate

1087
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 5: because of this flaw that I've found in, You're not

1088
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,800
Speaker 5: authentic because of this contravention of the articles of faith

1089
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 5: that I have to subscribe to. You're not legit enough,

1090
00:52:58,040 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 5: you're not good enough. You're not good enough. Only me

1091
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 5: and my little circle they're the true believers. Yeah, right,

1092
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 5: very you see how a common experience this is across

1093
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 5: religions and whatever. So so that's increasing my radicalization.

1094
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: How radicalized did you get? Were you ready to die

1095
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: for us, to kill for this? How deep did you go?

1096
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 4: Good question?

1097
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 5: So in the so again, so let's look at so

1098
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 5: ninety five, I go away, ninety eight, I get married,

1099
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 5: ninety eight to two thousand and one, right, the nine

1100
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 5: eleven attacks happened. That is really what you know, shakes

1101
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 5: me and I kind of opened my eyes. And then

1102
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 5: then I moved to Syria, right, and then that's where

1103
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 5: the deradicalization happens. But while I'm still in that radicalized phase,

1104
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 5: I got to a point where in nineteen ninety six,

1105
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 5: there was the Russians invaded Chechnya, and I fantasized about

1106
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 5: going to Chechnya as a foreign fighter. Okay, I wanted

1107
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 5: to because that was like I don't know how there

1108
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 5: were I'm sure there were other battlefields so to speak,

1109
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 5: that were happening at the time, but I think it's

1110
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 5: because the first like jihadi videos started to come out

1111
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 5: at that time, and it was basically videos of like

1112
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 5: the militants there conducting VIP convoy attacks on Russian soldiers,

1113
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 5: killing Russian Russian soldiers. Right, So I thought, Hey, I

1114
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 5: want to go to Chechnya and fight in jihad, right,

1115
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 5: And thank god I didn't go, of course, But and

1116
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 5: again I think it was fantasy at this point. I remember,

1117
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 5: I'll tell this story because I would ride on the

1118
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 5: bus to go to the station to go wherever I

1119
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 5: was going, And just before I got to the station,

1120
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 5: there was a Jewish synagogue and I thought to myself,

1121
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 5: wouldn't it be nice to blow this place up?

1122
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,200
Speaker 4: To see this place blown up?

1123
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 5: Now it was right next to police stations, so there's

1124
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 5: a deterrence factor of like I would not go and

1125
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 5: do something like that because the cop shop is right

1126
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 5: next to it. But even the fact that I felt

1127
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 5: that when I saw that place that's bad.

1128
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 2: Was it destruction of the building or was it the

1129
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 2: of the people or were you just not even really

1130
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: thinking of it like that, You're just like, this is

1131
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 2: an act that I could do that would.

1132
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,760
Speaker 4: Prove my you know, bona fides.

1133
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was very Again like when I say

1134
00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 5: it was abstract, it was no there was nothing specific,

1135
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 5: no plans, It was just this place got to be

1136
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 5: blown up and then you know people are in there.

1137
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 5: Of course, that's like almost a secondary thought, right. The

1138
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 5: main thing is that years later, you know, now I've

1139
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 5: been you know, come to be known as an expert

1140
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 5: in the topic whatever.

1141
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:32,399
Speaker 4: I actually ended up.

1142
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 5: Speaking at that synagogue from invitation from the rabbi, and

1143
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 5: I told them this story. I told them that outside

1144
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 5: those doors I would pass by all the time. Yeah,

1145
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 5: it's pretty heavy. It's pretty heavy. So that's as far

1146
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 5: as I got. I never and it wasn't really even

1147
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 5: like you know, I just didn't take any steps. It

1148
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 5: didn't go beyond the fantasy stage, got it, because that's

1149
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 5: when things get you know, legal, right is when then

1150
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 5: you say, oh, then you go to a store and

1151
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 5: you buy a knife or you get a goal pro

1152
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 5: because you want to film the attack, right, Like when

1153
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 5: you start to take steps like that, are you just

1154
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 5: surveillance of a place to see like, okay, where are

1155
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 5: the points that I can attack this?

1156
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 4: That's you know, that's right. I didn't get to that stage.

1157
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 2: How far away do you think you could have been

1158
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 2: from taking a step? Do you think it would have

1159
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,359
Speaker 2: just been a matter of something.

1160
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 5: Oh, very easy, very not taking a step in terms

1161
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 5: of committing an attack, but going overseas to be a

1162
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,839
Speaker 5: foreign fighter. It could have very easily happened. I had

1163
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 5: such good contacts and I could have done it. But

1164
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 5: I just I thank god that I it just it

1165
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 5: didn't come to that point.

1166
00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 2: Okay, that's it for this week. Stay tuned for next week,

1167
00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: in which we learn all about him going under cover.

1168
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 2: There's so much more to learn. It's crazy. But Megan,

1169
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 2: it's a movie. I am, it really is. I'm not

1170
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: going to ask.

1171
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 3: You if you're doing to tell me, okay.

1172
00:56:54,680 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 2: But I I guess I wonder like if you if

1173
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 2: you did something that made you feel a lot of

1174
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: shame in your family, do you think that that's something

1175
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 2: that could, you know, kind of drive you deeper into

1176
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 2: your religion?

1177
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1178
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean I think guilt definitely is the main

1179
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: driving force in all religions that turn a little bit bad.

1180
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 3: And who knows.

1181
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: I mean, if I was raised the way he raised

1182
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: was raised, I might have joined the Talibana.

1183
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1184
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: That's I guess what we talk about here. You know,

1185
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: you you never know.

1186
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: What what what you can do?

1187
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: What's your capable?

1188
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:32,439
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1189
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 2: You really don't. Yeah, I really related to the party

1190
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: story because I had such a like deep terror of

1191
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 2: authority in high school and just like wanted to, you know,

1192
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 2: not disobey in any way. And I went to I

1193
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 2: went to a party, and my dad had told me,

1194
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 2: this is so fucking funny in retrospect. My dad had

1195
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: told me that you can be guilty by association if

1196
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,160
Speaker 2: someone you're with is smoking weed.

1197
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 3: Or that's not.

1198
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: What are you supposed to do?

1199
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 3: Avoid the planet.

1200
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: So I went to this party that got wild and

1201
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: it got raided by the cops, not rated whatever. It

1202
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 2: got broken up by the cops. But it was the

1203
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: first time that I had ever experienced that, and it

1204
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 2: was very like scary, and they were loud, and I

1205
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 2: was like hiding outside and crouching outside, and I was

1206
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 2: just so scared that a they would find me and

1207
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 2: I would go to jail because other people were drinking. Right,

1208
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 2: mind you, I had never had a sip of alcohol

1209
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 2: in my life. Still haven't or be that my dad

1210
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: would find out that I had done something so horrible,

1211
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:43,919
Speaker 2: which is associate with people doing drugs. So I hear you, Yeah,

1212
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 2: he never found out. I don't think he ever found out.

1213
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 2: So who knows what would have happened if he had

1214
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,400
Speaker 2: and who. The other thing is that my there is

1215
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 2: a loved one that I have who went suddenly out

1216
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 2: of nowhere deeper into their religion, and I always suspected

1217
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 2: it was because they did something that they felt, yeah,

1218
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 2: was like sinful or ashamed of, maybe in the sexual realm,

1219
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. But then they suddenly like went gong

1220
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 2: ho like completely out of nowhere, and it just reminded

1221
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 2: me of what Movieing was talking about and made me,

1222
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 2: you know, wonder how often that happens.

1223
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: Probably a lot, Yeah, I mean there's always something we

1224
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: usually find when people jump deeper into a held belief

1225
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: or a new belief, So that would make sense.

1226
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would make perfect sense.

1227
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, stay tuned for part two next week.

1228
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: I can't wait for you guys to hear next week's episode.

1229
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: Have a wonderful rest of this week, and as always,

1230
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: remember to follow your gut, watch out for Red Flatt's

1231
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: and never ever Trust Me, Bye.

1232
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: Bye trust Me. As produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp

1233
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 2: and Steve Delemator.

1234
00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 3: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1235
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly Amber Church.

1236
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1237
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust me Cult Pop, or on TikTok at

1238
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1239
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1240
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,960
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1241
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1242
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.