Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the story of a man
Speaker 1: who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and
Speaker 1: that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary
Speaker 1: who built a fortune as a black man during Jim
Speaker 1: Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know
Speaker 1: about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I
Speaker 1: wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been
Speaker 1: on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music.
Speaker 1: This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of
Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday,
Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a
Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues
Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to
Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen
Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. A member of the
Speaker 1: Wagner family was back in the Pike County courthouse today.
Speaker 1: His attorneys argued George Wagner the fourth did not shoot
Speaker 1: and kill any of the Rodent family members. Judge in
Speaker 1: our emotion. We have asked the court to dismisscounts one
Speaker 1: through eight and or the accompanying death specifications which make
Speaker 1: this case a death penalty. As part of the pleadio
Speaker 1: Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither he nor his brother
Speaker 1: or their parents will face the death penalty as long
Speaker 1: as Jake testifies in court. George did not shoot or
Speaker 1: kill anybody. He did not pull a trigger once. Jake,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, has admitted to killing at least
Speaker 1: five people personally and shooting a sixth. Special Prosecutor Angie
Speaker 1: Keaneppa argued the murder charges and death penalty specific oci
Speaker 1: against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner testifies on
Speaker 1: the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of the Rodent
Speaker 1: family anxiously await for answers to close the case, but
Speaker 1: won't ever erase the heartache they feel. This is the piked.
Speaker 1: In Massacre season three, Episode seven, Breadcrumbs, I'm Courtney arshng,
Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow the trail of
Speaker 1: breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings, Some of them lead
Speaker 1: into very dark corners that may only be fully illuminated
Speaker 1: once the trial begins, and no issue has cast a
Speaker 1: larger shadow over the case than what Angela and Jake's
Speaker 1: testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement. When the
Speaker 1: state has made a bargain what the shooter of at
Speaker 1: least five people to kill her and at least five
Speaker 1: people in this case, then we believe it's unconstitutional, improper,
Speaker 1: and abuse are to pursue the death phone against George
Speaker 1: when they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're not stipulating
Speaker 1: that George did not shoot anybody, because if you don't
Speaker 1: know that, we are simply stipulating, supporting to jas proper
Speaker 1: George did not shoot anybody, supports distinction. Now, Judge Deering
Speaker 1: ended up denying the defense motion filed by George Wagner's attorney. Now,
Speaker 1: we also learned that all four of the suspects were
Speaker 1: offered the same chance to negotiate a deal if they
Speaker 1: agreed to tell prosecutors what happened the night the Rodent
Speaker 1: family members were killed. These murders in Pike County, Ohio.
Speaker 1: It's not something they just entered into you know, they're
Speaker 1: not just you know, sitting around with if you can
Speaker 1: as a beer open and say let's go slaughter to rodents.
Speaker 1: That's not what happened. This took planning. You're talking about
Speaker 1: the murder of eight other human beings. They're gonna go
Speaker 1: into quite graphic detail about first off, the kids being
Speaker 1: locked up in this house with the deceased remains of
Speaker 1: their parents. They're going to talk about all of the
Speaker 1: blood stains that were on the children. They're going to
Speaker 1: talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's
Speaker 1: going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit
Speaker 1: in the chest with a ten pound slash hmer. You're
Speaker 1: not going to have a totality of the execution of
Speaker 1: this agreement until they get up on the stand and
Speaker 1: they do what they say that they were going to do,
Speaker 1: you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer.
Speaker 1: Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge, and Fox nineteen legal analyst
Speaker 1: Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked
Speaker 1: them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies
Speaker 1: need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and
Speaker 1: forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean,
Speaker 1: if there's what they call aper made by a defendant
Speaker 1: where the defendant will say, well, this is what I
Speaker 1: would testify to, it's got a line up, not absolutely perfectly,
Speaker 1: but generally it's got to line up with what the prosecutions.
Speaker 1: They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly. You don't
Speaker 1: want to screw this up. You don't want to make
Speaker 1: some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that you're in
Speaker 1: jail with, even the prison staff, that you're coming in
Speaker 1: contact with him the daily basis, anything that could hamper
Speaker 1: this trial. They want to keep this thing as pristine
Speaker 1: as they possibly can. Going into what are the prosecution's
Speaker 1: going to do with George and Billy. Here's producer Chris
Speaker 1: Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. If
Speaker 1: those proffers are to be believed, it would seem that
Speaker 1: Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would seem
Speaker 1: that and Jake admitted to these killings. If he facilitated
Speaker 1: the deaths of five people, which he is admitted to,
Speaker 1: and we still have three that are unaccounted for it.
Speaker 1: I think Money's own Billy at this point in time,
Speaker 1: he's front runner. I think that the State's going to
Speaker 1: want their pound of flesh in this case because of
Speaker 1: everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all
Speaker 1: of this horror that has come down upon this little
Speaker 1: rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of
Speaker 1: Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family
Speaker 1: case is going to be that case that eighty years
Speaker 1: from now, people are going to sit around campfire and
Speaker 1: tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by
Speaker 1: the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and
Speaker 1: expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal
Speaker 1: for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly
Speaker 1: filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the
Speaker 1: evidence should be admissible and why Emotion seventy six should
Speaker 1: be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor
Speaker 1: and Flann again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion
Speaker 1: at the defense filed, there may be a response, or
Speaker 1: there may be another motion filed by the state that
Speaker 1: seeks something and in those motions at times that you
Speaker 1: will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not
Speaker 1: heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to
Speaker 1: this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We
Speaker 1: took this new evidence and compared it to some of
Speaker 1: the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
Speaker 1: This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight
Speaker 1: members of the road and family were murdered in their
Speaker 1: homes on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators
Speaker 1: located shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union
Speaker 1: Hill Road and three one two two Union Hill Road.
Speaker 1: These shoeprints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay,
Speaker 1: so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The
Speaker 1: locations where these prints were found were at the homes
Speaker 1: of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been
Speaker 1: to this location and their running distance from each other.
Speaker 1: When we visited Pikedon, we actually did the drive of
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes.
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown
Speaker 1: piked and off of Route thirty two. You exit the highway,
Speaker 1: then double back and head into a patchwork of forests
Speaker 1: and fields, and about half a mile up the road
Speaker 1: on the right is when you first see three one
Speaker 1: two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road
Speaker 1: and Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months
Speaker 1: before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also
Speaker 1: the location where hannahme Rodin had her baby shower just
Speaker 1: leading up to the murders. So moving into this home
Speaker 1: was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana. Just
Speaker 1: down the road from that is four oh seven seven
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior was living,
Speaker 1: and as we know, his cousin Gary was staying with him.
Speaker 1: This was a very brutal crime scene. There were pools
Speaker 1: of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood, what
Speaker 1: police found were two shoe prints, one a size ten
Speaker 1: and a half and the other a size eleven. According
Speaker 1: to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand
Speaker 1: shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went
Speaker 1: back and I thought that brand sounded familiar, and the
Speaker 1: reason it was familiar to me is that when my
Speaker 1: son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was
Speaker 1: at Chick fil A and they require you to wear
Speaker 1: those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy
Speaker 1: him a pair, and that's what they were, and I
Speaker 1: just looked that up. They're primarily athletic works shoes. Their
Speaker 1: non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color,
Speaker 1: they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website,
Speaker 1: they go for like thirteen bucks of pair or something
Speaker 1: like That's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven shoe
Speaker 1: was actually found in both Christina and Data's home, which
Speaker 1: is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation about this.
Speaker 1: Did they divide up and each go to a different
Speaker 1: location or did they do it together? And that's what
Speaker 1: this evidence would imply. Yeah, so further knock point stuff.
Speaker 1: What they also found was that the size eleven shoe
Speaker 1: had a mix of multiple victims blood in it, which
Speaker 1: again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing that
Speaker 1: shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan.
Speaker 1: It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge
Speaker 1: anybody that has never read in Coobala to go read
Speaker 1: this book specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did such
Speaker 1: a fantastic job and given such a great description of
Speaker 1: this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered, not
Speaker 1: too dissimilar from what happened and Piked, and only it
Speaker 1: happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back.
Speaker 1: They had one piece of evidence that really todd everything
Speaker 1: together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction
Speaker 1: novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of
Speaker 1: the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might
Speaker 1: have read this book in high school or have heard
Speaker 1: of it. It's really one of the first true crime
Speaker 1: stories that people sank their teeth into. And I would
Speaker 1: surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or
Speaker 1: documentary really should give some credit to this one, because
Speaker 1: without it, I don't think the genre would be what
Speaker 1: it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between
Speaker 1: the piked and massacre and the Clutter of family murders.
Speaker 1: One the family aspect, also to the brutality three the
Speaker 1: victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer
Speaker 1: amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who
Speaker 1: aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little
Speaker 1: bit of a top line about it. It all started
Speaker 1: in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two
Speaker 1: x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across
Speaker 1: Kansas on a tip they had received from one of
Speaker 1: their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the
Speaker 1: duel was still in jail, they met a man named
Speaker 1: Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once
Speaker 1: worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who,
Speaker 1: according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a
Speaker 1: safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith
Speaker 1: and Hiccock needed to hear. And eventually, when they got
Speaker 1: out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the
Speaker 1: Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family
Speaker 1: was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus
Speaker 1: Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's
Speaker 1: every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of
Speaker 1: what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night
Speaker 1: that they were murdered, Thinking about them in their homes
Speaker 1: and having a loud banging sound and all a sudden,
Speaker 1: there's gun in your face. And it turns out there
Speaker 1: actually was not a safe it was a total lie.
Speaker 1: Or her rumor and Hiccock, who had a very short temper,
Speaker 1: flew into a rage. And it's so sad because they
Speaker 1: must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't leave any witnesses alive.
Speaker 1: So all they got away with was a radio in
Speaker 1: maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to
Speaker 1: kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision,
Speaker 1: they kind of went one by one to the family
Speaker 1: members who were in various points of the home, and
Speaker 1: they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged
Speaker 1: on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit
Speaker 1: his throat and then shot him in the head. They
Speaker 1: then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound
Speaker 1: in another part of the basement and shot him to death.
Speaker 1: And then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom
Speaker 1: Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and
Speaker 1: her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head.
Speaker 1: Her hands were tied in front of her. She was gagged,
Speaker 1: and get this, they actually he tucked her into her bed.
Speaker 1: It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable
Speaker 1: in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity
Speaker 1: to the road in case seems to be the sheer
Speaker 1: violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip
Speaker 1: their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same way,
Speaker 1: shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in the
Speaker 1: face is just violence for violence sake. Something else that
Speaker 1: we should note that at some point in the night,
Speaker 1: Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement
Speaker 1: and left a partial footprint that again seems eerially similar
Speaker 1: to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes.
Speaker 1: A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway.
Speaker 1: He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one
Speaker 1: of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been
Speaker 1: resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this
Speaker 1: name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called
Speaker 1: the kept Paul print. When he stepped on that box,
Speaker 1: he transferred a print to that box with his boot
Speaker 1: that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it
Speaker 1: left that cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered.
Speaker 1: Not so and piked In. The defense has struck gold here. Really,
Speaker 1: I think, so, what makes you think that? Well, guess
Speaker 1: what they found? They had Perry's boots in this case,
Speaker 1: they ain't got nothing and piked and they don't have
Speaker 1: the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in
Speaker 1: the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions
Speaker 1: because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case,
Speaker 1: much like the Clutter case, is going to be a
Speaker 1: blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert,
Speaker 1: William bosnia can tie the bloody prints back to the
Speaker 1: Wagner's without having the actual will footwear for his analysis.
Speaker 1: Bosniak bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe
Speaker 1: at Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In
Speaker 1: in his home state of Florida. The defense is trying
Speaker 1: to raise doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined
Speaker 1: the match, as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as
Speaker 1: an expert. To do this, they've requested what's called a
Speaker 1: Daubard hearing. Here again, and Flanagan. Dalbert is just the
Speaker 1: name of a case where some guidelines were set forth
Speaker 1: by US Supreme Court, and it was done with the
Speaker 1: idea that we don't want junk science going to a
Speaker 1: jury just because someone was declared an expert and said
Speaker 1: that this was his expert opinion. And so they gave
Speaker 1: some guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of
Speaker 1: the guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some
Speaker 1: of these does include whether the theory or technique in
Speaker 1: question can be and has been tested, whether it has
Speaker 1: been subject to peer review and publication, it's known potential
Speaker 1: error rate, and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within
Speaker 1: the forensic scientific community. One of the attacks that the
Speaker 1: defense made is that this is not the shoe. The
Speaker 1: shoe that he compared to the print is a sample
Speaker 1: shoe that he bought later. They would want to do
Speaker 1: that because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand,
Speaker 1: the defense's job is to exploit these small little issues
Speaker 1: along the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case.
Speaker 1: You know, when you start to talk about you know, well,
Speaker 1: they've given so much value to this piece of evidence.
Speaker 1: They're going to try to paint it that way. If
Speaker 1: this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia,
Speaker 1: people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when
Speaker 1: they hear an accent from other places, or they see
Speaker 1: people that don't quite fit in. And all he has
Speaker 1: to do is say, you know this guy, he's with
Speaker 1: the fits. Why the hell are you going to go
Speaker 1: outside of your own law enforcement family and the crime
Speaker 1: lab there in the state in contract with an outside
Speaker 1: expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Jarring ruled for
Speaker 1: the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor
Speaker 1: of the defense, a jury would never hear any of
Speaker 1: the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up
Speaker 1: to state that this gentleman is going to testify to
Speaker 1: size ten and a half and two size eleventh athletic
Speaker 1: works shoes. He's going to testify to those items, and
Speaker 1: then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the
Speaker 1: shoe prints that's scene to these individuals, they're saying that
Speaker 1: this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can
Speaker 1: conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded.
Speaker 1: But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do.
Speaker 1: If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their
Speaker 1: job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope
Speaker 1: that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit
Speaker 1: of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because
Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the
Speaker 1: defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that
Speaker 1: and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury,
Speaker 1: you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you
Speaker 1: need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution
Speaker 1: story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner
Speaker 1: do not murder eight people. We think it's important to
Speaker 1: go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution
Speaker 1: is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a
Speaker 1: huge part in this case. The first thing that we
Speaker 1: think seems very relevant is the shoe receipts. Now As
Speaker 1: a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles
Speaker 1: and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family, investigators located
Speaker 1: a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The
Speaker 1: data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which,
Speaker 1: as we know, is just a couple of weeks before
Speaker 1: the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray
Speaker 1: men's Walmart branded shoes with velcro straps in sizes ten
Speaker 1: and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain
Speaker 1: and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases
Speaker 1: of that model and those sizes of the shoe in
Speaker 1: numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an
Speaker 1: expert reviewed the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio,
Speaker 1: and it included still images of the customers who purchased
Speaker 1: athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those
Speaker 1: shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart
Speaker 1: on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same
Speaker 1: time on the receipt founds on the Wagner property. And
Speaker 1: this day is so significant because, as we know, Hannah
Speaker 1: may Roden was having her baby shower at her new
Speaker 1: house where she lived with her mom, which we talked
Speaker 1: about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least.
Speaker 1: We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose
Speaker 1: those specific shoes for her boys to wear because they
Speaker 1: were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother
Speaker 1: wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela
Speaker 1: Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother
Speaker 1: for these murders. I have a question, what do you
Speaker 1: think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and
Speaker 1: the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well,
Speaker 1: it all depends on what Jake has given them at
Speaker 1: this point. And Mama, from a friend standpoint, I can't
Speaker 1: wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to
Speaker 1: a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic
Speaker 1: evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is
Speaker 1: on the table? Are we gonna talk about ballistics because
Speaker 1: that's the agency for bringing about death here? You know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people.
Speaker 1: Reporter Angeinette leavs these potential implications for George and Billy
Speaker 1: Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from
Speaker 1: one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: they were saying, you have no evidence against George the
Speaker 1: fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in
Speaker 1: court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's
Speaker 1: nothing in the discovery that ties them to this. So
Speaker 1: when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe
Speaker 1: impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them
Speaker 1: to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue
Speaker 1: of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that
Speaker 1: she purchased these shoes at Walmart them to use, So
Speaker 1: those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes.
Speaker 1: Because the Doward hearing could affect both father and son,
Speaker 1: Judge Deering raised the possibility that they both appear in
Speaker 1: court at the same time. I would think that's going
Speaker 1: to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out
Speaker 1: of the Doward hearing. So you're going to have the
Speaker 1: singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going
Speaker 1: to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're
Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted to the point she went unconscious.
Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one
Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us
Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to
Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista,
Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember
Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's
Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People
Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to
Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong. What
Speaker 1: they're doing as evil will take things away. And I
Speaker 1: can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl,
Speaker 1: You and I both know what it took to just
Speaker 1: get through the day in New York City and get
Speaker 1: home in one piece. And so the fact that we're
Speaker 1: here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking
Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The la
Speaker 1: Verne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share.
Speaker 1: How Rude Tanta Rito's is the full House rewatch podcast
Speaker 1: you've been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic
Speaker 1: characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses
Speaker 1: Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to
Speaker 1: relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show.
Speaker 1: We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called
Speaker 1: Full House, playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras
Speaker 1: weren't rolling. And now thirty five years later, it's our
Speaker 1: biggest adventure yet. Get ready for Jody and Andrea to
Speaker 1: tell all as they take an in depth book back
Speaker 1: at life in and around the Tanner Home from the
Speaker 1: very very beginning. So if you think you know everything
Speaker 1: there is to know about Full House, How Rude, We'll
Speaker 1: be reliving every moment with you, and we'll be joined
Speaker 1: by our Full House family, including all your favorites from
Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden
Speaker 1: treasures you may have missed within the show, and we'll
Speaker 1: take a trip down memory lane together. Listen to How
Speaker 1: Rude Tannertos on the iHeartRadio appcable podcasts, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Bad Manners. This
Speaker 1: is the podcast that takes you inside Britain's stately homes
Speaker 1: and tells all the tales the guide books don't. My
Speaker 1: name is Tom Horton and I'll be your host. Britain
Speaker 1: is riddled with big houses from crumbling castles, massive mansions
Speaker 1: and stately piles bigger than bucking And as a comedian,
Speaker 1: I'm not really bothered about the facts and figures. I
Speaker 1: just want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission
Speaker 1: to find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping
Speaker 1: stories of these stately homes and the people in them.
Speaker 1: This podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible
Speaker 1: and outrageous buildings to spill the tea on the scandalous, scary,
Speaker 1: shocking and hilarious tales. So if you want to get
Speaker 1: historically horrid, royally raucus and downtum dirty, look note that
Speaker 1: listen to Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Judge Daring decided to
Speaker 1: have two separate darboard cases for George and Billy Wagner,
Speaker 1: avoiding a father son faced face for the first time
Speaker 1: since their arrests almost four years ago. Here's Joseph Morgan.
Speaker 1: What if they come to a conclusion, Let's just say
Speaker 1: it has to do with footwear. They come to the
Speaker 1: conclusion X relative to the findings in George's case and
Speaker 1: the validity of the evidence and how was examined, collected
Speaker 1: and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate legal
Speaker 1: team there. They might have a completely different view of this.
Speaker 1: When you're accused of something, and I'm just speaking strictly
Speaker 1: about forensics here, you have to be able to hold
Speaker 1: forth against the entire might of the state and what
Speaker 1: they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's team is
Speaker 1: there to save George. They're not there to save Billy.
Speaker 1: The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived early and
Speaker 1: took a seat while the defense and prosecution organized their arguments.
Speaker 1: Bosniak is fit with a head of silver hair. You
Speaker 1: might guess he's ten years younger than his actual age
Speaker 1: of seventy six. Swear or a firm the Professimony were
Speaker 1: about to give into the truth whole trees and nothing
Speaker 1: about the truth, Michelanga, and you've got I gave a
Speaker 1: few concedes. Can you tell us what your vocation is.
Speaker 1: I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear,
Speaker 1: entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abong
Speaker 1: you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George
Speaker 1: the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak, Angie Kneppa goes
Speaker 1: through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe
Speaker 1: his resume to the court. He speaks for a full
Speaker 1: hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done
Speaker 1: thousands of footwear impression examinations during his career with the
Speaker 1: FBI and in the twenty plus years of consulting since
Speaker 1: his retirement in nineteen ninety eight. Footwear shoes of people
Speaker 1: leave impressions. Some of these are on two dimensional surfaces,
Speaker 1: where shoes acquire material like dust, dirt, mud, blood, and
Speaker 1: so forth, and then they read deposited in subsequent steps,
Speaker 1: typically the few step in a pool of blood. The
Speaker 1: first few steps are pretty heavy and messy. I have
Speaker 1: a lot of blood, and then eventually each step someone
Speaker 1: that blood is transferred to the floor and consumed, so
Speaker 1: the next step doesn't have as much. Bosniak explains that
Speaker 1: he can identify specific brands, models, and sizes of shoes
Speaker 1: even if they aren't recovered. He does this by comparing
Speaker 1: or recovered prints to the molds used by manufacturers to
Speaker 1: make the soles of any given shoe. In shoes that
Speaker 1: are not popular, a manufacturer may only make one mold
Speaker 1: for most or all sizes. The basic design will be
Speaker 1: the same. It's computer generated, it has been for years,
Speaker 1: so it's overall design, and it's whole size of that
Speaker 1: design from all of those molds will virtually be indistinguishable.
Speaker 1: But in some shoe designs they also add something that
Speaker 1: is known as generically as texture. At this point, Bosniac
Speaker 1: fires up a video he narrated. Texture is broadly defined
Speaker 1: as a shallow pattern sometimes found on selective surfaces of
Speaker 1: a footwear outshole. Adding texture to a mold is a
Speaker 1: separate process. The video shows two workers in Southeast Asia.
Speaker 1: They each sit at their own workbench with a small
Speaker 1: hammer and all they're punching little divots into the shoe
Speaker 1: molds that will later be used to cast rubber soles.
Speaker 1: During the molding process, there are two predominant methods of
Speaker 1: adding texture to a mold surface. One of those shown
Speaker 1: here involves mechanically striking a pattern into the surface using
Speaker 1: a steel dye or similar tool. This is known as
Speaker 1: hand stiffing. Believe it or not, those little patterns of
Speaker 1: the fine detail on the bottom of your shoes are
Speaker 1: mostly hand carved, and no two are alike. A size
Speaker 1: eleven mold created by one person will have minute differences
Speaker 1: from a size eleven created by another person. This goes
Speaker 1: even for the same brand and model shoe. It creates
Speaker 1: a very specific footprint. What's great about this evidence is
Speaker 1: that it's what we call it demonstrable, And when you
Speaker 1: have demonstrable evidence, that's a big, big test of its reliability.
Speaker 1: If you live with Florida and you're asked to do
Speaker 1: an examination pers with Florida, how can you make a
Speaker 1: comparison to an impression was left? Because manufacturers sell their
Speaker 1: shoes all over the country, so if they're sold at
Speaker 1: one mold mark, you're probably sold at the majority of them.
Speaker 1: If I know they're Walmart shoes, then that's the obvious
Speaker 1: place that I would go to first. Angie can up arrests.
Speaker 1: Now it's time for defense attorney Rob Junk to convince
Speaker 1: the judge that Bosniak is not a reliable expert. So
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you, then, in doing this test,
Speaker 1: you're required to have a mold standard from the batteries. No,
Speaker 1: in some cases I just simply go to the store
Speaker 1: and buy some or get permission to make photographs and
Speaker 1: take standards of the shoes they have, and why not
Speaker 1: go to the main fact That's not always possible. They're
Speaker 1: in other countries mostly. But unless you have obtained all
Speaker 1: of the molds, how do you know or how can
Speaker 1: you be certain that the impression you have is a
Speaker 1: one particular mold or shoe that you have purchased from
Speaker 1: the store. I mean, this is just through your experience,
Speaker 1: is it right? You don't know this to be I
Speaker 1: know this to be certain because I've observed it. I've
Speaker 1: worked cases like this. I've interacted with manufacturers, numerous manufacturers.
Speaker 1: I've been in factories asking questions like this, and I've
Speaker 1: observed it over and over again and used this process
Speaker 1: over and over again. And it's a certain as anything
Speaker 1: can be. The defense works tirelessly to see if Bosniak
Speaker 1: will slip up. The defense then moves on to the
Speaker 1: issue of not having the actual shoes used in the crime.
Speaker 1: Can you explain to the quarters, if we're looking at
Speaker 1: a Walmarch, how reliable it is to make a comparison
Speaker 1: ring match between a Walmart store and Florida and a
Speaker 1: shoe that a Walmart store maybe in California. Sure they
Speaker 1: came from the same hold they just got distributed to
Speaker 1: all over the country. Although the impression corresponded with the
Speaker 1: shoe that you purchase from Walmart, you cannot say that
Speaker 1: that impression came from the athletic workshoe the athletic porches.
Speaker 1: All right, Yes, it's it's an athletic workshoe that has
Speaker 1: the texture that I purchased and that I compared, and
Speaker 1: they corresponds with the crime scene. After three hours of questioning,
Speaker 1: Judge Deering has heard enough. I think I'm just going
Speaker 1: to rule an emotion. I mean I could include. The
Speaker 1: court concludes that the footwear impression evidence has explained and
Speaker 1: testified too. But William buds the act satisfies the criteria
Speaker 1: of evident rules Element two and Dallart Merrill for the
Speaker 1: admissibility of expert testimony. Let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 1: I'm Carrol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The
Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the Night ten nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he
Speaker 1: wasn't he really wasn't he choked and to the point
Speaker 1: she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only
Speaker 1: takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately
Speaker 1: for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I
Speaker 1: wanted him to pay for his crime. He needed to
Speaker 1: be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If
Speaker 1: I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I
Speaker 1: would call him and I would say, I know you
Speaker 1: killed my sister. I will always hound you and haunt you.
Speaker 1: You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning
Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to
Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things people like me have
Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil.
Speaker 1: They will take things away and I can only hope
Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, you
Speaker 1: and I both know what it to just get through
Speaker 1: the day in New York City and get home in
Speaker 1: one piece. And so the fact that we're here and
Speaker 1: what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous.
Speaker 1: It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The
Speaker 1: only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that
Speaker 1: we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us
Speaker 1: and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne Cox
Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. This
Speaker 1: is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramus. You
Speaker 1: might know him as a character from Boardwalk Empire or
Speaker 1: as the inspiration for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric
Speaker 1: and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the
Speaker 1: system during Prohibition. Remus is in the whiskey business, and
Speaker 1: Remus is the biggest man in the business, while living
Speaker 1: the life of luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy,
Speaker 1: I am so glad you are here. But George Remus's
Speaker 1: wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal.
Speaker 1: She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge.
Speaker 1: Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could
Speaker 1: crush him like an egg. And one of the most
Speaker 1: sensational murder trials in American history. We the jury, find
Speaker 1: the defendant, Join me Abbott kaylor As we traced George
Speaker 1: Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to
Speaker 1: Remus the Mad Bootleg King, every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. She's a
Speaker 1: Hollywood Western She's Jack Harrowac but in a nap dress
Speaker 1: with braids. She is one of the most important American
Speaker 1: children's authors of the twentieth century. She's the basis for
Speaker 1: a television show still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere
Speaker 1: is watching a Little as the Bird. She's been called
Speaker 1: a hero, a racist, a feminist, and a propagandist. I
Speaker 1: think the harm is too great because it's just one
Speaker 1: more thing that Native children have to endure. She is
Speaker 1: Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the book series Little House
Speaker 1: on the Prairie. As a kid, I idolized Laura, and
Speaker 1: last summer I went on the road in search of
Speaker 1: the real Laura. We're literally on the prairie. What I
Speaker 1: found was a complicated person alongside the complicated country she represents.
Speaker 1: I'm Glennis McNicol and this is wilder. Listen to on
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: With the Dobbard hearing over and motion seventy six denied,
Speaker 1: It's guaranteed the jury will hear the testimony of William Bosniak,
Speaker 1: his positive identification linking the shoes bought at Walmart by
Speaker 1: Angela Wagner and the footprints at the crime scene containing
Speaker 1: the blood of multiple victims. This may have far ridge
Speaker 1: in consequences for the entire Wagner family. Regardless, jurors will
Speaker 1: still see Jake's plea correct, and that would have its
Speaker 1: own narrative in and of itself, and maybe then the
Speaker 1: defense would poke holes in that. You're gonna get more
Speaker 1: than that from Jake. He's gonna be on stand. He's
Speaker 1: got to stand and deliver. That's the only way they
Speaker 1: made to steal him and Mama gonna be on stand. Man,
Speaker 1: You're gonna have a five Tom murderer all to stand
Speaker 1: given testimony against his debt. I guess his brother. I
Speaker 1: don't ever recall that I've ever heard of a case
Speaker 1: like this, not in my memory, not in recent history,
Speaker 1: at least anywhere in America. The stakes at this point
Speaker 1: are so incredibly high it's unimaginable. More on that next time.
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our
Speaker 1: other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes there every
Speaker 1: Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and
Speaker 1: case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Speaker 1: Chris Greaves, Scott de Graw, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing
Speaker 1: and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston.
Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is a production of Kati Studios
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is
Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors
Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them
Speaker 1: was a spot Barrenmout. On paper he was perfect, but
Speaker 1: in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked and to
Speaker 1: the point she went unconscious. I would call him and
Speaker 1: I would say, I know you killed my sister. You
Speaker 1: can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm free and
Speaker 1: I'm Rthie. We have spent the last twenty years building
Speaker 1: and working at some of the largest companies in the world.
Speaker 1: We worked with some remarkable people, Rob Mcalinney. When I
Speaker 1: see the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them.
Speaker 1: Check out the Arthie and Fear I'm show. That is
Speaker 1: a R D HI and s R I R A
Speaker 1: M Show. Listen to the Arcadianstrieum Show on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast oh, wherever you get your podcast I'm will daily.
Speaker 1: For years, I've been on the road playing shows and
Speaker 1: seeing America through live music. This summer I'll hit the stage.
Speaker 1: Who Season two of Sound of Our Town ten Cities
Speaker 1: twelve episodes every other Thursday. We explore the live music
Speaker 1: venues and culture of a new American city. With each
Speaker 1: new episode, our tour continues into the kind of venues
Speaker 1: you want to get to when you land in Detroit, Providence, Denver,
Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me.
Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name
Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a
Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression.
Speaker 1: But today not many people know about him. He race
Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was
Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.