WEBVTT - Breadcrumbs 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.920 The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:09.240 themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.160 because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 0:00:13.200 --> 0:00:15.400 He just walked around shot all the black people. The 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.440 cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 out how to go on and how to compete. I 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:28.640 Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.720 or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:40.200 it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:44.560 a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.040 to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:53.239 Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:58.080 this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:00.560 I would call him and I would say, I know 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.080 you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.440 Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.479 get your podcasts. This is the story of a man 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:15.000 who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:18.319 that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.399 who built a fortune as a black man during Jim 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.800 Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.920 about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:33.000 wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:36.720 Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:41.120 get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.880 on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.360 This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:51.000 Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 we explore the live music venues and culture of a 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:57.000 new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:58.520 into the kind of venues you want to get to 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:03.160 when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.560 to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:12.560 or wherever you get your podcasts. A member of the 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.800 Wagner family was back in the Pike County courthouse today. 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.800 His attorneys argued George Wagner the fourth did not shoot 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.880 and kill any of the Rodent family members. Judge in 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.040 our emotion. We have asked the court to dismisscounts one 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:31.120 through eight and or the accompanying death specifications which make 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.960 this case a death penalty. As part of the pleadio 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.040 Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither he nor his brother 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.800 or their parents will face the death penalty as long 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:44.120 as Jake testifies in court. George did not shoot or 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:48.560 kill anybody. He did not pull a trigger once. Jake, 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:52.040 on the other hand, has admitted to killing at least 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:57.080 five people personally and shooting a sixth. Special Prosecutor Angie 0:02:57.120 --> 0:03:00.320 Keaneppa argued the murder charges and death penalty specific oci 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.560 against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner testifies on 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.919 the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of the Rodent 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.400 family anxiously await for answers to close the case, but 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:20.240 won't ever erase the heartache they feel. This is the piked. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:26.840 In Massacre season three, Episode seven, Breadcrumbs, I'm Courtney arshng, 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.640 a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.280 Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow the trail of 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.520 breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings, Some of them lead 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.760 into very dark corners that may only be fully illuminated 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.680 once the trial begins, and no issue has cast a 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.920 larger shadow over the case than what Angela and Jake's 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:54.520 testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement. When the 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.200 state has made a bargain what the shooter of at 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.560 least five people to kill her and at least five 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:03.880 people in this case, then we believe it's unconstitutional, improper, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.840 and abuse are to pursue the death phone against George 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:11.440 when they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're not stipulating 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.760 that George did not shoot anybody, because if you don't 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.520 know that, we are simply stipulating, supporting to jas proper 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:24.719 George did not shoot anybody, supports distinction. Now, Judge Deering 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:28.920 ended up denying the defense motion filed by George Wagner's attorney. Now, 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.800 we also learned that all four of the suspects were 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.040 offered the same chance to negotiate a deal if they 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.239 agreed to tell prosecutors what happened the night the Rodent 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.920 family members were killed. These murders in Pike County, Ohio. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.159 It's not something they just entered into you know, they're 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:46.920 not just you know, sitting around with if you can 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.239 as a beer open and say let's go slaughter to rodents. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:53.080 That's not what happened. This took planning. You're talking about 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.120 the murder of eight other human beings. They're gonna go 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.839 into quite graphic detail about first off, the kids being 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.720 locked up in this house with the deceased remains of 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.839 their parents. They're going to talk about all of the 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:12.520 blood stains that were on the children. They're going to 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.719 talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.640 going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.400 in the chest with a ten pound slash hmer. You're 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.800 not going to have a totality of the execution of 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.280 this agreement until they get up on the stand and 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.640 they do what they say that they were going to do, 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:37.000 you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer. 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:42.200 Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge, and Fox nineteen legal analyst 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.920 Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.920 them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.200 need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:57.880 forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.839 if there's what they call aper made by a defendant 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:04.800 where the defendant will say, well, this is what I 0:06:04.839 --> 0:06:10.640 would testify to, it's got a line up, not absolutely perfectly, 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:14.440 but generally it's got to line up with what the prosecutions. 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:19.200 They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly. You don't 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.120 want to screw this up. You don't want to make 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.200 some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that you're in 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.080 jail with, even the prison staff, that you're coming in 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:29.719 contact with him the daily basis, anything that could hamper 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.120 this trial. They want to keep this thing as pristine 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.599 as they possibly can. Going into what are the prosecution's 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.840 going to do with George and Billy. Here's producer Chris 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:45.480 Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. If 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.719 those proffers are to be believed, it would seem that 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:53.400 Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would seem 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:58.400 that and Jake admitted to these killings. If he facilitated 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.680 the deaths of five people, which he is admitted to, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.640 and we still have three that are unaccounted for it. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.360 I think Money's own Billy at this point in time, 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:09.160 he's front runner. I think that the State's going to 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:11.760 want their pound of flesh in this case because of 0:07:11.840 --> 0:07:15.960 everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.200 of this horror that has come down upon this little 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.960 rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.520 Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.560 case is going to be that case that eighty years 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:34.400 from now, people are going to sit around campfire and 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:40.440 tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.920 the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.480 expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.760 for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.800 filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.280 evidence should be admissible and why Emotion seventy six should 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:04.000 be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:11.239 and Flann again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.680 at the defense filed, there may be a response, or 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.800 there may be another motion filed by the state that 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:22.120 seeks something and in those motions at times that you 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:25.480 will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.840 heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:33.760 this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:35.920 took this new evidence and compared it to some of 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:40.160 the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:44.040 This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:46.360 members of the road and family were murdered in their 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:50.079 homes on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:54.080 located shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.000 Hill Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:01.600 These shoeprints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay, 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:04.200 so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.200 locations where these prints were found were at the homes 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:11.320 of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:15.080 to this location and their running distance from each other. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.000 When we visited Pikedon, we actually did the drive of 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.320 Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes. 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:25.800 Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.120 piked and off of Route thirty two. You exit the highway, 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.640 then double back and head into a patchwork of forests 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.439 and fields, and about half a mile up the road 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.160 on the right is when you first see three one 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:40.079 two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.840 and Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.080 before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:51.960 the location where hannahme Rodin had her baby shower just 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.160 leading up to the murders. So moving into this home 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:58.400 was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana. Just 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.160 down the road from that is four oh seven seven 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:04.800 Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior was living, 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:07.760 and as we know, his cousin Gary was staying with him. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.280 This was a very brutal crime scene. There were pools 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:13.720 of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood, what 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.000 police found were two shoe prints, one a size ten 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.760 and a half and the other a size eleven. According 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.360 to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:29.000 shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went 0:10:29.040 --> 0:10:31.920 back and I thought that brand sounded familiar, and the 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.440 reason it was familiar to me is that when my 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:36.880 son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.160 at Chick fil A and they require you to wear 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.120 those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.200 him a pair, and that's what they were, and I 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:50.120 just looked that up. They're primarily athletic works shoes. Their 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.600 non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:57.000 they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.880 they go for like thirteen bucks of pair or something 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:04.120 like That's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven shoe 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.640 was actually found in both Christina and Data's home, which 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.920 is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation about this. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.880 Did they divide up and each go to a different 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.120 location or did they do it together? And that's what 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:24.200 this evidence would imply. Yeah, so further knock point stuff. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.760 What they also found was that the size eleven shoe 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.400 had a mix of multiple victims blood in it, which 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.400 again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing that 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:38.400 shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan. 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:44.680 It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.080 anybody that has never read in Coobala to go read 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.000 this book specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did such 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.200 a fantastic job and given such a great description of 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.440 this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered, not 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.079 too dissimilar from what happened and Piked, and only it 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:02.960 happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back. 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:06.040 They had one piece of evidence that really todd everything 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.640 together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:13.400 novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.720 sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.080 the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.400 have read this book in high school or have heard 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.480 of it. It's really one of the first true crime 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:29.360 stories that people sank their teeth into. And I would 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:34.559 surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.480 documentary really should give some credit to this one, because 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:40.640 without it, I don't think the genre would be what 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:46.080 it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.840 the piked and massacre and the Clutter of family murders. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:53.959 One the family aspect, also to the brutality three the 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.560 victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer 0:12:56.600 --> 0:13:01.640 amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:03.960 aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little 0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:06.120 bit of a top line about it. It all started 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.360 in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.480 x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:14.680 Kansas on a tip they had received from one of 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.959 their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:18.719 duel was still in jail, they met a man named 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:21.480 Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.400 worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who, 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.280 according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.760 safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:33.920 and Hiccock needed to hear. And eventually, when they got 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:36.640 out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:40.080 Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:43.520 was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.240 Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:52.320 every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.160 what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.840 that they were murdered, Thinking about them in their homes 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.319 and having a loud banging sound and all a sudden, 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.480 there's gun in your face. And it turns out there 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.920 actually was not a safe it was a total lie. 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.120 Or her rumor and Hiccock, who had a very short temper, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.480 flew into a rage. And it's so sad because they 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.600 must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't leave any witnesses alive. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.440 So all they got away with was a radio in 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.600 maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:26.120 kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision, 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.640 they kind of went one by one to the family 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:30.880 members who were in various points of the home, and 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.440 they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.200 on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:38.840 his throat and then shot him in the head. They 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.600 then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:44.000 in another part of the basement and shot him to death. 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:47.000 And then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:52.160 Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.360 her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.760 Her hands were tied in front of her. She was gagged, 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.440 and get this, they actually he tucked her into her bed. 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.720 It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:11.400 in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.560 to the road in case seems to be the sheer 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.760 violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:21.600 their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same way, 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:24.000 shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in the 0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:28.520 face is just violence for violence sake. Something else that 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.440 we should note that at some point in the night, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.360 Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.960 and left a partial footprint that again seems eerially similar 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.160 to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes. 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.000 A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.200 He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.480 of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:54.840 resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:59.320 name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.600 the kept Paul print. When he stepped on that box, 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:09.000 he transferred a print to that box with his boot 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:13.320 that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:18.920 left that cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered. 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:25.800 Not so and piked In. The defense has struck gold here. Really, 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.360 I think, so, what makes you think that? Well, guess 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:35.120 what they found? They had Perry's boots in this case, 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.920 they ain't got nothing and piked and they don't have 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.800 the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:45.440 the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.400 because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case, 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:50.400 much like the Clutter case, is going to be a 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:55.360 blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert, 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.560 William bosnia can tie the bloody prints back to the 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:02.240 Wagner's without having the actual will footwear for his analysis. 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.960 Bosniak bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.040 at Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.320 in his home state of Florida. The defense is trying 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.680 to raise doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:20.119 the match, as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:24.040 an expert. To do this, they've requested what's called a 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:31.960 Daubard hearing. Here again, and Flanagan. Dalbert is just the 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:36.040 name of a case where some guidelines were set forth 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.879 by US Supreme Court, and it was done with the 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.919 idea that we don't want junk science going to a 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.840 jury just because someone was declared an expert and said 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.960 that this was his expert opinion. And so they gave 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:55.359 some guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:59.359 the guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.320 of these does include whether the theory or technique in 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:06.560 question can be and has been tested, whether it has 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.400 been subject to peer review and publication, it's known potential 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:14.480 error rate, and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within 0:18:14.520 --> 0:18:19.480 the forensic scientific community. One of the attacks that the 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.359 defense made is that this is not the shoe. The 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.639 shoe that he compared to the print is a sample 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:27.959 shoe that he bought later. They would want to do 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:33.760 that because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:38.119 the defense's job is to exploit these small little issues 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.520 along the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:44.040 You know, when you start to talk about you know, well, 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:47.080 they've given so much value to this piece of evidence. 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.280 They're going to try to paint it that way. If 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.440 this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.960 people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.680 they hear an accent from other places, or they see 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.160 people that don't quite fit in. And all he has 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.720 to do is say, you know this guy, he's with 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:07.480 the fits. Why the hell are you going to go 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.320 outside of your own law enforcement family and the crime 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.920 lab there in the state in contract with an outside 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:20.159 expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Jarring ruled for 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:24.199 the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:26.800 Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:30.040 of the defense, a jury would never hear any of 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:34.760 the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:39.119 to state that this gentleman is going to testify to 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.000 size ten and a half and two size eleventh athletic 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.760 works shoes. He's going to testify to those items, and 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.399 then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:56.879 shoe prints that's scene to these individuals, they're saying that 0:19:56.920 --> 0:20:00.680 this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:04.840 conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded. 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.919 But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do. 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.120 If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:19.400 job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.679 that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.840 of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.720 there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.199 defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.480 and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.800 you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.280 need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.320 story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.760 do not murder eight people. We think it's important to 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.320 go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution 0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.840 is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.960 huge part in this case. The first thing that we 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.600 think seems very relevant is the shoe receipts. Now As 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.240 a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.680 and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family, investigators located 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:12.119 a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.920 data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which, 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:16.800 as we know, is just a couple of weeks before 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.840 the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.760 men's Walmart branded shoes with velcro straps in sizes ten 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.800 and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.520 and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.800 of that model and those sizes of the shoe in 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.760 numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:43.200 expert reviewed the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio, 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.800 and it included still images of the customers who purchased 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:50.880 athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.760 shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:59.680 Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:03.880 on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.240 time on the receipt founds on the Wagner property. And 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.000 this day is so significant because, as we know, Hannah 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:14.560 may Roden was having her baby shower at her new 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.280 house where she lived with her mom, which we talked 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:21.760 about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least. 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:26.320 We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:30.280 those specific shoes for her boys to wear because they 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:35.719 were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:40.280 wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:45.800 Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother 0:22:45.960 --> 0:22:49.920 for these murders. I have a question, what do you 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.679 think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:56.119 the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well, 0:22:56.160 --> 0:22:58.120 it all depends on what Jake has given them at 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.920 this point. And Mama, from a friend standpoint, I can't 0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.000 wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:05.240 a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:09.080 evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.840 on the table? Are we gonna talk about ballistics because 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:14.240 that's the agency for bringing about death here? You know, 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:18.119 we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people. 0:23:23.880 --> 0:23:27.680 Reporter Angeinette leavs these potential implications for George and Billy 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.080 Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from 0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:34.160 one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty, 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.560 they were saying, you have no evidence against George the 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.840 fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in 0:23:40.880 --> 0:23:44.040 court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:46.639 nothing in the discovery that ties them to this. So 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:48.280 when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe 0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:52.000 impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them 0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:54.359 to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue 0:23:54.359 --> 0:23:57.600 of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that 0:23:57.640 --> 0:24:01.520 she purchased these shoes at Walmart them to use, So 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:06.040 those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes. 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.520 Because the Doward hearing could affect both father and son, 0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:13.439