1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives. 4 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app, 9 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas, 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the 14 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality, 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious. 16 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know 17 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. This is the story of a man 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: who's fascinated me. His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and 21 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: that's a name you don't forget. He was a visionary 22 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: who built a fortune as a black man during Jim 23 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: Crow during the Depression, but today not many people know 24 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: about him. The race sort of wiped out, and I 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: wonder if this was done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy 26 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: Grace on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 27 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm will daily. For years, I've been 28 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: on the road playing shows and seeing America through live music. 29 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who Season two of 30 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: Sound of Our Town ten cities twelve episodes every other Thursday, 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: we explore the live music venues and culture of a 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: new American city. With each new episode, our tour continues 33 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: into the kind of venues you want to get to 34 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: when you landed in Detroit, Providence, Denver, or Seattle. Listen 35 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: to Sound of Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 36 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. A member of the 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: Wagner family was back in the Pike County courthouse today. 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: His attorneys argued George Wagner the fourth did not shoot 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: and kill any of the Rodent family members. Judge in 40 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: our emotion. We have asked the court to dismisscounts one 41 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: through eight and or the accompanying death specifications which make 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: this case a death penalty. As part of the pleadio 43 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither he nor his brother 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: or their parents will face the death penalty as long 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: as Jake testifies in court. George did not shoot or 46 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: kill anybody. He did not pull a trigger once. Jake, 47 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: on the other hand, has admitted to killing at least 48 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: five people personally and shooting a sixth. Special Prosecutor Angie 49 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: Keaneppa argued the murder charges and death penalty specific oci 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner testifies on 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of the Rodent 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: family anxiously await for answers to close the case, but 53 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: won't ever erase the heartache they feel. This is the piked. 54 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: In Massacre season three, Episode seven, Breadcrumbs, I'm Courtney arshng, 55 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and 56 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow the trail of 57 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings, Some of them lead 58 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: into very dark corners that may only be fully illuminated 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: once the trial begins, and no issue has cast a 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: larger shadow over the case than what Angela and Jake's 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement. When the 62 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: state has made a bargain what the shooter of at 63 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: least five people to kill her and at least five 64 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: people in this case, then we believe it's unconstitutional, improper, 65 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: and abuse are to pursue the death phone against George 66 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: when they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're not stipulating 67 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: that George did not shoot anybody, because if you don't 68 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: know that, we are simply stipulating, supporting to jas proper 69 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 1: George did not shoot anybody, supports distinction. Now, Judge Deering 70 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: ended up denying the defense motion filed by George Wagner's attorney. Now, 71 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: we also learned that all four of the suspects were 72 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: offered the same chance to negotiate a deal if they 73 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 1: agreed to tell prosecutors what happened the night the Rodent 74 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: family members were killed. These murders in Pike County, Ohio. 75 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: It's not something they just entered into you know, they're 76 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: not just you know, sitting around with if you can 77 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,239 Speaker 1: as a beer open and say let's go slaughter to rodents. 78 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: That's not what happened. This took planning. You're talking about 79 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: the murder of eight other human beings. They're gonna go 80 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 1: into quite graphic detail about first off, the kids being 81 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: locked up in this house with the deceased remains of 82 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: their parents. They're going to talk about all of the 83 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: blood stains that were on the children. They're going to 84 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's 85 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit 86 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: in the chest with a ten pound slash hmer. You're 87 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: not going to have a totality of the execution of 88 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 1: this agreement until they get up on the stand and 89 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: they do what they say that they were going to do, 90 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer. 91 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge, and Fox nineteen legal analyst 92 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies 94 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and 95 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean, 96 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: if there's what they call aper made by a defendant 97 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: where the defendant will say, well, this is what I 98 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: would testify to, it's got a line up, not absolutely perfectly, 99 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: but generally it's got to line up with what the prosecutions. 100 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly. You don't 101 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 1: want to screw this up. You don't want to make 102 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 1: some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that you're in 103 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: jail with, even the prison staff, that you're coming in 104 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: contact with him the daily basis, anything that could hamper 105 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: this trial. They want to keep this thing as pristine 106 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: as they possibly can. Going into what are the prosecution's 107 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: going to do with George and Billy. Here's producer Chris 108 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. If 109 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: those proffers are to be believed, it would seem that 110 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would seem 111 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: that and Jake admitted to these killings. If he facilitated 112 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: the deaths of five people, which he is admitted to, 113 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: and we still have three that are unaccounted for it. 114 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: I think Money's own Billy at this point in time, 115 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: he's front runner. I think that the State's going to 116 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: want their pound of flesh in this case because of 117 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 1: everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all 118 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: of this horror that has come down upon this little 119 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of 120 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family 121 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: case is going to be that case that eighty years 122 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: from now, people are going to sit around campfire and 123 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by 124 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and 125 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal 126 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly 127 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the 128 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: evidence should be admissible and why Emotion seventy six should 129 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor 130 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: and Flann again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion 131 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: at the defense filed, there may be a response, or 132 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: there may be another motion filed by the state that 133 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: seeks something and in those motions at times that you 134 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not 135 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to 136 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We 137 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: took this new evidence and compared it to some of 138 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 139 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight 140 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: members of the road and family were murdered in their 141 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: homes on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators 142 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 1: located shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union 143 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: Hill Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. 144 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: These shoeprints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay, 145 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The 146 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: locations where these prints were found were at the homes 147 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been 148 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 1: to this location and their running distance from each other. 149 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: When we visited Pikedon, we actually did the drive of 150 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes. 151 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown 152 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: piked and off of Route thirty two. You exit the highway, 153 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: then double back and head into a patchwork of forests 154 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,439 Speaker 1: and fields, and about half a mile up the road 155 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: on the right is when you first see three one 156 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road 157 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: and Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months 158 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also 159 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: the location where hannahme Rodin had her baby shower just 160 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: leading up to the murders. So moving into this home 161 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana. Just 162 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: down the road from that is four oh seven seven 163 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior was living, 164 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: and as we know, his cousin Gary was staying with him. 165 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: This was a very brutal crime scene. There were pools 166 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood, what 167 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: police found were two shoe prints, one a size ten 168 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: and a half and the other a size eleven. According 169 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand 170 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went 171 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 1: back and I thought that brand sounded familiar, and the 172 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: reason it was familiar to me is that when my 173 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was 174 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: at Chick fil A and they require you to wear 175 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy 176 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: him a pair, and that's what they were, and I 177 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: just looked that up. They're primarily athletic works shoes. Their 178 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color, 179 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website, 180 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: they go for like thirteen bucks of pair or something 181 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: like That's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven shoe 182 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: was actually found in both Christina and Data's home, which 183 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation about this. 184 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: Did they divide up and each go to a different 185 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: location or did they do it together? And that's what 186 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 1: this evidence would imply. Yeah, so further knock point stuff. 187 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: What they also found was that the size eleven shoe 188 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: had a mix of multiple victims blood in it, which 189 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing that 190 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan. 191 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge 192 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 1: anybody that has never read in Coobala to go read 193 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: this book specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did such 194 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: a fantastic job and given such a great description of 195 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered, not 196 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,079 Speaker 1: too dissimilar from what happened and Piked, and only it 197 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back. 198 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: They had one piece of evidence that really todd everything 199 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction 200 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen 201 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of 202 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might 203 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: have read this book in high school or have heard 204 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: of it. It's really one of the first true crime 205 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: stories that people sank their teeth into. And I would 206 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 1: surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or 207 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: documentary really should give some credit to this one, because 208 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: without it, I don't think the genre would be what 209 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between 210 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: the piked and massacre and the Clutter of family murders. 211 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: One the family aspect, also to the brutality three the 212 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer 213 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who 214 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 1: aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little 215 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: bit of a top line about it. It all started 216 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two 217 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across 218 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: Kansas on a tip they had received from one of 219 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the 220 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: duel was still in jail, they met a man named 221 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once 222 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who, 223 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a 224 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith 225 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: and Hiccock needed to hear. And eventually, when they got 226 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 1: out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the 227 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family 228 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus 229 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's 230 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of 231 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night 232 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: that they were murdered, Thinking about them in their homes 233 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: and having a loud banging sound and all a sudden, 234 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: there's gun in your face. And it turns out there 235 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: actually was not a safe it was a total lie. 236 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: Or her rumor and Hiccock, who had a very short temper, 237 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: flew into a rage. And it's so sad because they 238 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't leave any witnesses alive. 239 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 1: So all they got away with was a radio in 240 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to 241 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision, 242 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: they kind of went one by one to the family 243 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: members who were in various points of the home, and 244 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged 245 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit 246 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: his throat and then shot him in the head. They 247 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound 248 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: in another part of the basement and shot him to death. 249 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: And then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom 250 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and 251 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head. 252 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: Her hands were tied in front of her. She was gagged, 253 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: and get this, they actually he tucked her into her bed. 254 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable 255 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity 256 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: to the road in case seems to be the sheer 257 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip 258 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same way, 259 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in the 260 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: face is just violence for violence sake. Something else that 261 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: we should note that at some point in the night, 262 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement 263 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: and left a partial footprint that again seems eerially similar 264 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes. 265 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway. 266 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one 267 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been 268 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this 269 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called 270 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: the kept Paul print. When he stepped on that box, 271 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: he transferred a print to that box with his boot 272 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it 273 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: left that cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered. 274 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: Not so and piked In. The defense has struck gold here. Really, 275 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: I think, so, what makes you think that? Well, guess 276 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: what they found? They had Perry's boots in this case, 277 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: they ain't got nothing and piked and they don't have 278 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in 279 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions 280 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case, 281 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: much like the Clutter case, is going to be a 282 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert, 283 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: William bosnia can tie the bloody prints back to the 284 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: Wagner's without having the actual will footwear for his analysis. 285 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: Bosniak bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe 286 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: at Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In 287 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: in his home state of Florida. The defense is trying 288 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: to raise doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined 289 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: the match, as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as 290 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: an expert. To do this, they've requested what's called a 291 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: Daubard hearing. Here again, and Flanagan. Dalbert is just the 292 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 1: name of a case where some guidelines were set forth 293 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: by US Supreme Court, and it was done with the 294 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 1: idea that we don't want junk science going to a 295 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: jury just because someone was declared an expert and said 296 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: that this was his expert opinion. And so they gave 297 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: some guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of 298 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: the guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some 299 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: of these does include whether the theory or technique in 300 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: question can be and has been tested, whether it has 301 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,400 Speaker 1: been subject to peer review and publication, it's known potential 302 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: error rate, and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within 303 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: the forensic scientific community. One of the attacks that the 304 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: defense made is that this is not the shoe. The 305 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: shoe that he compared to the print is a sample 306 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: shoe that he bought later. They would want to do 307 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: that because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, 308 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: the defense's job is to exploit these small little issues 309 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: along the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case. 310 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: You know, when you start to talk about you know, well, 311 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: they've given so much value to this piece of evidence. 312 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: They're going to try to paint it that way. If 313 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia, 314 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when 315 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: they hear an accent from other places, or they see 316 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: people that don't quite fit in. And all he has 317 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: to do is say, you know this guy, he's with 318 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: the fits. Why the hell are you going to go 319 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: outside of your own law enforcement family and the crime 320 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: lab there in the state in contract with an outside 321 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Jarring ruled for 322 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph 323 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor 324 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: of the defense, a jury would never hear any of 325 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up 326 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 1: to state that this gentleman is going to testify to 327 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 1: size ten and a half and two size eleventh athletic 328 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: works shoes. He's going to testify to those items, and 329 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the 330 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: shoe prints that's scene to these individuals, they're saying that 331 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 1: this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can 332 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded. 333 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do. 334 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their 335 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope 336 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit 337 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because 338 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the 339 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that 340 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury, 341 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you 342 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution 343 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner 344 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: do not murder eight people. We think it's important to 345 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution 346 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a 347 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: huge part in this case. The first thing that we 348 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: think seems very relevant is the shoe receipts. Now As 349 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 1: a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles 350 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family, investigators located 351 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The 352 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 1: data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which, 353 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: as we know, is just a couple of weeks before 354 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray 355 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: men's Walmart branded shoes with velcro straps in sizes ten 356 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain 357 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases 358 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: of that model and those sizes of the shoe in 359 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an 360 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: expert reviewed the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio, 361 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: and it included still images of the customers who purchased 362 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those 363 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than 364 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart 365 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same 366 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: time on the receipt founds on the Wagner property. And 367 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: this day is so significant because, as we know, Hannah 368 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: may Roden was having her baby shower at her new 369 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: house where she lived with her mom, which we talked 370 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least. 371 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose 372 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: those specific shoes for her boys to wear because they 373 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:35,719 Speaker 1: were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother 374 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 1: wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela 375 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother 376 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: for these murders. I have a question, what do you 377 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and 378 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well, 379 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: it all depends on what Jake has given them at 380 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: this point. And Mama, from a friend standpoint, I can't 381 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to 382 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic 383 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is 384 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: on the table? Are we gonna talk about ballistics because 385 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: that's the agency for bringing about death here? You know, 386 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people. 387 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,680 Speaker 1: Reporter Angeinette leavs these potential implications for George and Billy 388 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from 389 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty, 390 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: they were saying, you have no evidence against George the 391 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in 392 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's 393 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: nothing in the discovery that ties them to this. So 394 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe 395 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them 396 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,359 Speaker 1: to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue 397 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that 398 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: she purchased these shoes at Walmart them to use, So 399 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes. 400 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: Because the Doward hearing could affect both father and son, 401 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: Judge Deering raised the possibility that they both appear in 402 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: court at the same time. I would think that's going 403 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 1: to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out 404 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: of the Doward hearing. So you're going to have the 405 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 1: singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going 406 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're 407 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh, 408 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 409 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few 410 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 411 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 412 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't. 413 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted to the point she went unconscious. 414 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: Bob could lie about anything, but only takes the one 415 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,199 Speaker 1: time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us 416 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him to 417 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: pay for his crime. He needed to be put to justice. 418 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now, 419 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I 420 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will 421 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to 422 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 423 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, 424 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember 425 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: my award winning first season. I've been pretty busy. There's 426 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People 427 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to 428 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong. What 429 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: they're doing as evil will take things away. And I 430 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, 431 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: You and I both know what it took to just 432 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: get through the day in New York City and get 433 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: home in one piece. And so the fact that we're 434 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: here and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, 435 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,680 Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. 436 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said, 437 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking 438 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to The la 439 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 1: Verne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or 440 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. 441 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: How Rude Tanta Rito's is the full House rewatch podcast 442 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: you've been waiting for. Each week, get together with iconic 443 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: characters Stephanie Tanner and Kimmy Gibbler, also known as actresses 444 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: Jody Sweeten and Andrea Barber, as they team up to 445 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: relive every episode of your favorite Friday night comfort show. 446 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: We spent our entire childhoods on a little show called 447 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: Full House, playing frenemies but becoming besties whenever the cameras 448 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: weren't rolling. And now thirty five years later, it's our 449 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: biggest adventure yet. Get ready for Jody and Andrea to 450 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: tell all as they take an in depth book back 451 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 1: at life in and around the Tanner Home from the 452 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: very very beginning. So if you think you know everything 453 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: there is to know about Full House, How Rude, We'll 454 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 1: be reliving every moment with you, and we'll be joined 455 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,239 Speaker 1: by our Full House family, including all your favorites from 456 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: one hundred and ninety two episodes. We'll reveal the hidden 457 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: treasures you may have missed within the show, and we'll 458 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: take a trip down memory lane together. Listen to How 459 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 1: Rude Tannertos on the iHeartRadio appcable podcasts, or wherever you 460 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Bad Manners. This 461 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: is the podcast that takes you inside Britain's stately homes 462 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: and tells all the tales the guide books don't. My 463 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,479 Speaker 1: name is Tom Horton and I'll be your host. Britain 464 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: is riddled with big houses from crumbling castles, massive mansions 465 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: and stately piles bigger than bucking And as a comedian, 466 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: I'm not really bothered about the facts and figures. I 467 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: just want the juicy stuff. So I'm on a mission 468 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: to find out the frightening, filthy and downright jaw dropping 469 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: stories of these stately homes and the people in them. 470 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: This podcast ventures deep inside some of Britain's most incredible 471 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,199 Speaker 1: and outrageous buildings to spill the tea on the scandalous, scary, 472 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: shocking and hilarious tales. So if you want to get 473 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: historically horrid, royally raucus and downtum dirty, look note that 474 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: listen to Bad Manners on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts 475 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Judge Daring decided to 476 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: have two separate darboard cases for George and Billy Wagner, 477 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: avoiding a father son faced face for the first time 478 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: since their arrests almost four years ago. Here's Joseph Morgan. 479 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: What if they come to a conclusion, Let's just say 480 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: it has to do with footwear. They come to the 481 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: conclusion X relative to the findings in George's case and 482 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: the validity of the evidence and how was examined, collected 483 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate legal 484 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: team there. They might have a completely different view of this. 485 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: When you're accused of something, and I'm just speaking strictly 486 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: about forensics here, you have to be able to hold 487 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: forth against the entire might of the state and what 488 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's team is 489 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: there to save George. They're not there to save Billy. 490 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived early and 491 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: took a seat while the defense and prosecution organized their arguments. 492 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,280 Speaker 1: Bosniak is fit with a head of silver hair. You 493 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: might guess he's ten years younger than his actual age 494 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: of seventy six. Swear or a firm the Professimony were 495 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: about to give into the truth whole trees and nothing 496 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: about the truth, Michelanga, and you've got I gave a 497 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: few concedes. Can you tell us what your vocation is. 498 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear, 499 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abong 500 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George 501 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak, Angie Kneppa goes 502 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe 503 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: his resume to the court. He speaks for a full 504 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done 505 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: thousands of footwear impression examinations during his career with the 506 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: FBI and in the twenty plus years of consulting since 507 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: his retirement in nineteen ninety eight. Footwear shoes of people 508 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: leave impressions. Some of these are on two dimensional surfaces, 509 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: where shoes acquire material like dust, dirt, mud, blood, and 510 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: so forth, and then they read deposited in subsequent steps, 511 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: typically the few step in a pool of blood. The 512 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: first few steps are pretty heavy and messy. I have 513 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: a lot of blood, and then eventually each step someone 514 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: that blood is transferred to the floor and consumed, so 515 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: the next step doesn't have as much. Bosniak explains that 516 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: he can identify specific brands, models, and sizes of shoes 517 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: even if they aren't recovered. He does this by comparing 518 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: or recovered prints to the molds used by manufacturers to 519 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: make the soles of any given shoe. In shoes that 520 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: are not popular, a manufacturer may only make one mold 521 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: for most or all sizes. The basic design will be 522 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: the same. It's computer generated, it has been for years, 523 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: so it's overall design, and it's whole size of that 524 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: design from all of those molds will virtually be indistinguishable. 525 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: But in some shoe designs they also add something that 526 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: is known as generically as texture. At this point, Bosniac 527 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: fires up a video he narrated. Texture is broadly defined 528 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: as a shallow pattern sometimes found on selective surfaces of 529 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: a footwear outshole. Adding texture to a mold is a 530 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: separate process. The video shows two workers in Southeast Asia. 531 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: They each sit at their own workbench with a small 532 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: hammer and all they're punching little divots into the shoe 533 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: molds that will later be used to cast rubber soles. 534 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: During the molding process, there are two predominant methods of 535 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: adding texture to a mold surface. One of those shown 536 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: here involves mechanically striking a pattern into the surface using 537 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 1: a steel dye or similar tool. This is known as 538 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: hand stiffing. Believe it or not, those little patterns of 539 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 1: the fine detail on the bottom of your shoes are 540 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: mostly hand carved, and no two are alike. A size 541 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: eleven mold created by one person will have minute differences 542 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: from a size eleven created by another person. This goes 543 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: even for the same brand and model shoe. It creates 544 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: a very specific footprint. What's great about this evidence is 545 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: that it's what we call it demonstrable, And when you 546 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: have demonstrable evidence, that's a big, big test of its reliability. 547 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: If you live with Florida and you're asked to do 548 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: an examination pers with Florida, how can you make a 549 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 1: comparison to an impression was left? Because manufacturers sell their 550 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: shoes all over the country, so if they're sold at 551 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: one mold mark, you're probably sold at the majority of them. 552 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: If I know they're Walmart shoes, then that's the obvious 553 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: place that I would go to first. Angie can up arrests. 554 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: Now it's time for defense attorney Rob Junk to convince 555 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: the judge that Bosniak is not a reliable expert. So 556 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,240 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you, then, in doing this test, 557 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: you're required to have a mold standard from the batteries. No, 558 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: in some cases I just simply go to the store 559 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: and buy some or get permission to make photographs and 560 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 1: take standards of the shoes they have, and why not 561 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: go to the main fact That's not always possible. They're 562 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 1: in other countries mostly. But unless you have obtained all 563 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: of the molds, how do you know or how can 564 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,440 Speaker 1: you be certain that the impression you have is a 565 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: one particular mold or shoe that you have purchased from 566 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: the store. I mean, this is just through your experience, 567 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: is it right? You don't know this to be I 568 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: know this to be certain because I've observed it. I've 569 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: worked cases like this. I've interacted with manufacturers, numerous manufacturers. 570 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: I've been in factories asking questions like this, and I've 571 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 1: observed it over and over again and used this process 572 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: over and over again. And it's a certain as anything 573 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 1: can be. The defense works tirelessly to see if Bosniak 574 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: will slip up. The defense then moves on to the 575 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 1: issue of not having the actual shoes used in the crime. 576 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: Can you explain to the quarters, if we're looking at 577 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: a Walmarch, how reliable it is to make a comparison 578 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: ring match between a Walmart store and Florida and a 579 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: shoe that a Walmart store maybe in California. Sure they 580 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: came from the same hold they just got distributed to 581 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: all over the country. Although the impression corresponded with the 582 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: shoe that you purchase from Walmart, you cannot say that 583 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: that impression came from the athletic workshoe the athletic porches. 584 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,399 Speaker 1: All right, Yes, it's it's an athletic workshoe that has 585 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: the texture that I purchased and that I compared, and 586 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: they corresponds with the crime scene. After three hours of questioning, 587 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: Judge Deering has heard enough. I think I'm just going 588 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 1: to rule an emotion. I mean I could include. The 589 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: court concludes that the footwear impression evidence has explained and 590 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: testified too. But William buds the act satisfies the criteria 591 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 1: of evident rules Element two and Dallart Merrill for the 592 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:53,880 Speaker 1: admissibility of expert testimony. Let's stop here for another break. 593 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm Carrol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The 594 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the Night ten nineties in Las Vegas, 595 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. 596 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:12,600 Speaker 1: He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and 597 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,719 Speaker 1: he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he 598 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 1: wasn't he really wasn't he choked and to the point 599 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: she went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only 600 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: takes the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately 601 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: for Bob, us girlfriends know how to fight back. I 602 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: wanted him to pay for his crime. He needed to 603 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: be put to justice. I'll be honest with you. If 604 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 1: I saw him right now, I'd spit on him. I 605 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: would call him and I would say, I know you 606 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: killed my sister. I will always hound you and haunt you. 607 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: You can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, 608 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's 609 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,719 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of 610 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning 611 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to 612 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: touch incredible guests about important things people like me have 613 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: been screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court. 614 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil. 615 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: They will take things away and I can only hope 616 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment. Girl, you 617 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: and I both know what it to just get through 618 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: the day in New York City and get home in 619 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: one piece. And so the fact that we're here and 620 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. 621 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills. The 622 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: only reason that you might think, as Chase said, that 623 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking us 624 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne Cox 625 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 626 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share. This 627 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramus. You 628 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: might know him as a character from Boardwalk Empire or 629 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 1: as the inspiration for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric 630 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the 631 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,319 Speaker 1: system during Prohibition. Remus is in the whiskey business, and 632 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: Remus is the biggest man in the business, while living 633 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: the life of luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, 634 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: I am so glad you are here. But George Remus's 635 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 1: wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. 636 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge. 637 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could 638 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 1: crush him like an egg. And one of the most 639 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: sensational murder trials in American history. We the jury, find 640 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: the defendant, Join me Abbott kaylor As we traced George 641 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 1: Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to 642 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,439 Speaker 1: Remus the Mad Bootleg King, every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, 643 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. She's a 644 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: Hollywood Western She's Jack Harrowac but in a nap dress 645 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: with braids. She is one of the most important American 646 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: children's authors of the twentieth century. She's the basis for 647 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: a television show still watched around the world. Somebody somewhere 648 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: is watching a Little as the Bird. She's been called 649 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: a hero, a racist, a feminist, and a propagandist. I 650 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,399 Speaker 1: think the harm is too great because it's just one 651 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: more thing that Native children have to endure. She is 652 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: Laura Ingles Wilder, author of the book series Little House 653 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: on the Prairie. As a kid, I idolized Laura, and 654 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: last summer I went on the road in search of 655 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: the real Laura. We're literally on the prairie. What I 656 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,839 Speaker 1: found was a complicated person alongside the complicated country she represents. 657 00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: I'm Glennis McNicol and this is wilder. Listen to on 658 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 659 00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: With the Dobbard hearing over and motion seventy six denied, 660 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: It's guaranteed the jury will hear the testimony of William Bosniak, 661 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: his positive identification linking the shoes bought at Walmart by 662 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner and the footprints at the crime scene containing 663 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: the blood of multiple victims. This may have far ridge 664 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:36,439 Speaker 1: in consequences for the entire Wagner family. Regardless, jurors will 665 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 1: still see Jake's plea correct, and that would have its 666 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: own narrative in and of itself, and maybe then the 667 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: defense would poke holes in that. You're gonna get more 668 00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,160 Speaker 1: than that from Jake. He's gonna be on stand. He's 669 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: got to stand and deliver. That's the only way they 670 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: made to steal him and Mama gonna be on stand. Man, 671 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: You're gonna have a five Tom murderer all to stand 672 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: given testimony against his debt. I guess his brother. I 673 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: don't ever recall that I've ever heard of a case 674 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: like this, not in my memory, not in recent history, 675 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: at least anywhere in America. The stakes at this point 676 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 1: are so incredibly high it's unimaginable. More on that next time. 677 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our 678 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: other hit series, Crazy and Love. New episodes there every 679 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and 680 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. 681 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, 682 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: Chris Greaves, Scott de Graw, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing 683 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: and sound designed by Jeff Tis, Music by Jared Aston. 684 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: The Piked and Massacre is a production of Kati Studios 685 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,839 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 686 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 687 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. 688 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: It's Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is 689 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 1: time to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors 690 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 1: who were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them 691 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: was a spot Barrenmout. On paper he was perfect, but 692 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: in reality, this guy's a wacko. He choked and to 693 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,360 Speaker 1: the point she went unconscious. I would call him and 694 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: I would say, I know you killed my sister. You 695 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: can listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 696 00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,600 Speaker 1: podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm free and 697 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm Rthie. We have spent the last twenty years building 698 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: and working at some of the largest companies in the world. 699 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: We worked with some remarkable people, Rob Mcalinney. When I 700 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,760 Speaker 1: see the people of Wrexham, I grew up exactly like them. 701 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: Check out the Arthie and Fear I'm show. That is 702 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: a R D HI and s R I R A 703 00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: M Show. Listen to the Arcadianstrieum Show on the iHeartRadio app, 704 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:16,400 Speaker 1: Apple podcast oh, wherever you get your podcast I'm will daily. 705 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 1: For years, I've been on the road playing shows and 706 00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,799 Speaker 1: seeing America through live music. This summer I'll hit the stage. 707 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: Who Season two of Sound of Our Town ten Cities 708 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,799 Speaker 1: twelve episodes every other Thursday. We explore the live music 709 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: venues and culture of a new American city. With each 710 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: new episode, our tour continues into the kind of venues 711 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,560 Speaker 1: you want to get to when you land in Detroit, Providence, Denver, 712 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the 713 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 714 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,000 Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me. 715 00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name 716 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a 717 00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression. 718 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: But today not many people know about him. He race 719 00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was 720 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: done intentionally. Listen to Sweet Daddy Grace on the iHeartRadio app, 721 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.