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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Steph.

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Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heart Radio. So

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Speaker 1: before we get into this one quick content warning. We

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Speaker 1: are going to be discussing issues around weight, weight loss,

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Speaker 1: fad diets um, and some violence, some grief. Not so

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Speaker 1: much on those last two, but the first three like

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Speaker 1: weight weight loss a lot. So if that's something that's

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Speaker 1: triggering for you, or especially now when we're in the

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Speaker 1: time of resolutions and and a lot of those often

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Speaker 1: do involve dieting and weight uh, then I would probably

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Speaker 1: skip this one, or at least skip the first half.

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Speaker 1: The first half, yes, because we are doing something interesting

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Speaker 1: today where we're talking about two short stories that really

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Speaker 1: had a big impact on me when I is younger,

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Speaker 1: and I guess now because I still think about them. Um,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk more about that in a second. But Samantha,

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Speaker 1: do you have any short stories that you read in

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Speaker 1: high school or just when you were younger that really

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Speaker 1: stuck with you? Yeah, the ones that traumatized me were

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Speaker 1: the ones that I remember the most. Rose a Rose

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Speaker 1: for Emily I told you about, which is the William

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Speaker 1: Faulkner one that I was like, what is this, and

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Speaker 1: then um, a good man is hard to find, which

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Speaker 1: is the Flannie O'Connor, And I've actually really went through

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Speaker 1: all of her short collection because she's a Georgia person

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Speaker 1: and so I felt like I needed to connect and

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Speaker 1: I love Southern Gothic like that is probably some some

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Speaker 1: of my favorite genre books. Like Flanny O'Connor, she's okay

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Speaker 1: at all, But Carson mccullor's was my person um and

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Speaker 1: love her stories, so things like that really got into it.

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Speaker 1: But I those were the ones that pierced my brain

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Speaker 1: the most of like what is happening? Why did I

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Speaker 1: read this? Why? Like that? Typically, and I guess it's

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Speaker 1: probably a sign of a great book. And that's the

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Speaker 1: same thing I've always said. It's like, yes, I hate them,

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Speaker 1: but they are amazing writers because they are the worst

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Speaker 1: for putting this in my head and I can't let

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Speaker 1: it go. So those two short stories stick with me

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Speaker 1: the most. From high school. I do love a good novella,

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Speaker 1: so like hash mccallers has a couple of really good

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Speaker 1: short novellas. I also read of Mice and Men in

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Speaker 1: middle school and cried for three days very much, But

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Speaker 1: I do love s time back as well, who was

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Speaker 1: not necessarily a Southern Gothic but was kind of in

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Speaker 1: that time frame. So those are the stories that I remember. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I I was thinking about this because we're today we're

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Speaker 1: talking about one that I imagine most of you haven't

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Speaker 1: heard of, called Lose Now Pay Later. I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of the story. Me and my friends we read it

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Speaker 1: in ninth grade, I think, and we still talk about it,

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Speaker 1: and then we're talking about Neo Gaiman's The Problem with Susan,

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Speaker 1: The Problem of Susan, excuse me, And I do think

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Speaker 1: it's really fascinating that when I there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of literature stories that I read, short stories I read

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Speaker 1: in literature class that I it's they stuck out to

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Speaker 1: me and I remember them to this day. And when

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Speaker 1: I was in tenth grade, we did a whole section

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Speaker 1: on religious stories from around the world, and that actually

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Speaker 1: had a huge impact on me and my because I

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Speaker 1: grew up very religious, but I was kind of stepping

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Speaker 1: away and that was part of that where I was like,

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Speaker 1: this story is essentially the same as Noah's Ark, and

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Speaker 1: it was written way earlier, as being very like logical

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Speaker 1: about it and annoying about it. But yeah, and then

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Speaker 1: there was another story that I still think of it

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Speaker 1: to this day. I can't remember like any of the

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Speaker 1: details other than the main character was kind of he

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Speaker 1: was a male teenager and he was kind of a jerk,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of went out and did all this

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Speaker 1: stuff and cut his family out and really burnt them,

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Speaker 1: left them burnt. And then he went through all this

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Speaker 1: like trauma, and he came back and the family just

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Speaker 1: accepted him and they were so happy to see him again.

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Speaker 1: And I just remember for some reason that really stuck

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Speaker 1: with me. Another one, Harrison Bergeron, which was written by

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Speaker 1: Kurt Vonnegut in e I reread it. It's really short,

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Speaker 1: just kind of because I found it online when I

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Speaker 1: was doing the research for this, and it's got a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting stuff in there that might be a

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll come back if we ever do another short

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Speaker 1: story thing again, We'll say. Kurt vonnegut short stories are

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Speaker 1: so different from his uh novels that it threw me

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Speaker 1: when I first read it, because I was expecting one thing,

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Speaker 1: but I loved it. I was like, wait, it was

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Speaker 1: almost reminiscent of Truman Capote and his short stories as

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Speaker 1: well that I was like, wait, wait what, But I

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Speaker 1: know that's not the case necessarily because they are very

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Speaker 1: different styles, very beautiful in each of us way. But

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed his store stories. It did go more

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Speaker 1: into that literary world that I knew because I'm not

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Speaker 1: a big I five fan, and honestly, I don't think

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Speaker 1: Hart Boyet is super sci fi. He does have the

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Speaker 1: futuristic vibe to everything he does, and that's why I

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Speaker 1: think I like his stuff and I think he's hilarious.

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Speaker 1: But his actual short stories are very reminiscent to the

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Speaker 1: literary works to me of Trim and Caponi is like

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Speaker 1: kind of very lyrical. Yeah, way, but don't get me started.

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Speaker 1: I want to get you started. Oh my gosh, it

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Speaker 1: was so fun. Yeah. No, I really enjoyed it and

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Speaker 1: I'm glad I reread it. And yeah, there's just a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff we can talk about now, especially in

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Speaker 1: our modern context, because it is very fascinating to me

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Speaker 1: to read a story that's set in the future when

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Speaker 1: we're kind of approaching that date, Um, right, where are

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Speaker 1: we when it comes to that, which is a good

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Speaker 1: segue into the first story we're going to read, Well,

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Speaker 1: not read that we read and we're going to talk about,

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Speaker 1: which you can find for free online. And it is

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Speaker 1: called dues Now Pay Later. So yes, I did. I

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Speaker 1: read this in ninth grade literature. It's by Carol Farley.

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Speaker 1: I think it was published, but it was surprisingly hard

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Speaker 1: to check down. I guess it's just like me and

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Speaker 1: my friend group that remember this story so well. I

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Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, it's definitely got some language we get

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Speaker 1: in trouble for using on this podcast, like crazy and

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Speaker 1: dumb in it um. And I couldn't find too much

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Speaker 1: about the author, but he's hoping she isn't a terrible

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Speaker 1: human being. But me and my friends, yeah, we talked

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Speaker 1: about the story pretty frequently. And since it's all about

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Speaker 1: fat diets gone really really wrong, we thought it was

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Speaker 1: sort of appropriate, um for all this New Year, New

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Speaker 1: You messaging. And let's get into the plot. So it

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Speaker 1: is about two girls, Deb and trenja Um and I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing on how to pronounce that it's t r I

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Speaker 1: in j A. And they they encounter this news store

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Speaker 1: at a mall selling something called swooties. And this is

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Speaker 1: another reason I think it's probably correct, because it feels

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Speaker 1: very nineties to me, so the shop sounds like the

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Speaker 1: fanciest frozen yogurt shop you've ever heard of. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: it reminds me of the fro yo trend which was

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Speaker 1: taking off in the in the ninety nineties in America.

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Speaker 1: UM so, very bright, very clean, but no employees in sight.

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Speaker 1: There's a sign inside the shop that reads sweets plus

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Speaker 1: goodies equals swooties. I'm pronouncing it swooties, but I guess

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Speaker 1: it would be I'm saying swooties. I'm sticking with it.

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Speaker 1: Um Suties came in a variety of flavors peanut butter crunch,

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Speaker 1: butter rump, pecan, coconut, almond, marshmallow, and chocolate nut mint.

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Speaker 1: And best of all, they were free. I feel like

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Speaker 1: those flavors are very adult flavors because as a kid,

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Speaker 1: I would never go for the coconut almond. I would

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Speaker 1: be like, what what is this? I might, but it

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Speaker 1: would be for the cocon not the almond, if that

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Speaker 1: makes sense. I so like butter fudge crunch, even though like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that sounds like it would be a lot more child friendly.

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Speaker 1: But whatever. So deb the narrator is suspicious, a little

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Speaker 1: on edge about how bright and um empty the story

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Speaker 1: is and doubtful that they are truly free is really

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Speaker 1: excited about it, though so deb mentioned she's on a

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Speaker 1: diet and it is therefore always thinking about food. The

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Speaker 1: smell lures them in and they try some from the

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Speaker 1: automated machine that dispenses a chocolate covered cone and then

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Speaker 1: a swirl of something with a similar consistency to a

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Speaker 1: soft serve, which, by the way, I still can't quite

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Speaker 1: grasp this um. By all accounts, they're delicious, and they

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Speaker 1: repair try every flavor before leaving trene of vowing to

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Speaker 1: diet for a whole year to make up for it.

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Speaker 1: As they exit, they tell others passing by to go

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Speaker 1: and try some. Yes. So this is the thing we

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Speaker 1: talked about the most, is the descriptions of how good

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Speaker 1: they taste like. We still think about how good they

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Speaker 1: sounded quest we want them. So here's a quote. Swooties

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Speaker 1: aren't cold like ice cream, are warm like cooked pudding,

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Speaker 1: but they are blending of both in temperature and texture.

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Speaker 1: The flavor melts instantly, and your whole mouth and brain

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Speaker 1: are flooded with taste and impressions. Like the first foodie

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Speaker 1: I tried coconut almond marshmallow. Suddenly, as my mouth separated

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Speaker 1: the individual taste, my brain bursted into memories associated with

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Speaker 1: each flavor. I felt as if I were lying on

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Speaker 1: a warm beach, all covered with coconut suntan oil. Then

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Speaker 1: I heard myself giggling and singing as a group of

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Speaker 1: us roasted marshmallows around a campfire. Then I lived the

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Speaker 1: long ago moments of biting into the special Christmas cookies

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Speaker 1: with almonds my grandmother made when I was little. And

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Speaker 1: that's something we have talked about, is this kind of

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Speaker 1: nostalgia of of food and how powerful that can be.

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Speaker 1: So Yeah, Swooties take off, and despite achieving widespread popularity,

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Speaker 1: the product remains free. Um. People are so excited about

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Speaker 1: swooties that nobody really asked any questions about it. Um,

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Speaker 1: someone was paying the rent and the product was determined

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Speaker 1: to be safe for human consumption. People aligned up to

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Speaker 1: get their hands on some swooties, and the machines never

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Speaker 1: seemed to run out, and everyone who partakes starts to

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Speaker 1: gain weight. UM. Trenja and Deb complain about it, knowing

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Speaker 1: the swooties are to blame, leading Deb to ask aloud,

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Speaker 1: if only there was some easy way to eat all

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Speaker 1: the swooties we want and still not gain any weight. Well,

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Speaker 1: ask and you shall receive. Deb almost immediately notices a

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Speaker 1: new fixture in the mall parking lot. A tall, white

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Speaker 1: telephone booth sized box flashing light next to it reads

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Speaker 1: the Slimmer um and a thin, tan, short woman with

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Speaker 1: a quote strange sounding voice is standing outside of it,

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Speaker 1: telling the girls that it is a machine to make

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Speaker 1: you slimmer, that if they step inside, they'll lose unwanted fat.

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Speaker 1: Deb has taken aback at this woman's confidence, knowing that quote.

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Speaker 1: In the old days, people believed they could lose weight quickly,

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Speaker 1: but in twenty one they weren't that gullible that they

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Speaker 1: knew fat diets don't work and that's fat. The woman

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Speaker 1: explains that it is a new process and that instant

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Speaker 1: removal of fat costs twenty five yen per pound. Was

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Speaker 1: this supposed to be based in China or no, so Japan?

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Speaker 1: So I think because of the time it was written,

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Speaker 1: Japan was a big economic power, and that's actually one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons we see so many damaging stereotypes Asian

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Speaker 1: stereotypes and eighties nineties movies was to kind of combat

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Speaker 1: that so I think because of when this was written,

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Speaker 1: she was imagining that in the future, Japan was the power. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean he also thought that way too. I think

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Speaker 1: that it was more China at that point in his books,

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Speaker 1: but that they would be in power in future, which

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Speaker 1: movie we an't not um though, they are both dubious

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Speaker 1: that the woman's confidence convinces Death to give it a go,

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Speaker 1: digging up a hundred thirty yen literally, they just say, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, how much money do you have? And the

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Speaker 1: woman pushes it, takes some money and pushes the men,

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Speaker 1: and the woman pushes Deb inside the booth, slams the

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Speaker 1: door behind her. There's a humming sound, and before Deb

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Speaker 1: can scream, Trenja opens the door, yelling at the woman

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Speaker 1: when she says that five pounds are gone. In a daze,

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Speaker 1: Dev says her jeans feel loose, but Trenja says it's

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Speaker 1: in her all in her imagination. However, when Deb wastes herself,

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Speaker 1: it turns out to be true. So yes Excited, the

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Speaker 1: girls scrounge up as much money as they can and

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Speaker 1: head back to the mall. The woman reveals, for every

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Speaker 1: ten pounds you lose because you know make trenjeted more

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Speaker 1: than just five, she has to prick your wrist, leaving

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Speaker 1: behind a tiny little mark for quote safety reasons. Um

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Speaker 1: and the girls are so relieved at the weight loss

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Speaker 1: and the prospect of never having to diet again they

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Speaker 1: accept this without question. Yes, and soon after slimmers start

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Speaker 1: appearing all over the world right next to swootie stores.

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Speaker 1: Everyone loves them, and the population at large gets skinnier.

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Speaker 1: Some people have four or five pin pricks around their

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Speaker 1: wrist um, but no one really understands how the machines work.

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Speaker 1: The machine attendants, who are all just kind of slightly off,

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Speaker 1: will explain it, but it's too technical to really understand,

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Speaker 1: and in the words of Trenja, people really didn't care

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Speaker 1: how they worked because it meant they could eat swooties

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Speaker 1: all day long and not gain an ounce, and that's

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Speaker 1: what mattered. Everyone seems to love swooties and slimmers, except

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Speaker 1: for Deb's ten year old brother, Trevor. He theorizes that

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Speaker 1: they are the plot of aliens from outer space who

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Speaker 1: are plumping people up with swooties and then harvesting the

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Speaker 1: fact collected from slimmers for fuel. That once the dots

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Speaker 1: circle someone's risk completely will be cold, their fat content

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Speaker 1: no longer a value, of course, deb and Trenja dismiss him,

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Speaker 1: deb thinking quote, humans would never sacrifice their freedom and

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Speaker 1: dignity just so they could eat and still be thin.

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Speaker 1: Even aliens ought to know that. I could quit eating

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Speaker 1: suoties and using those slimmers anytime I want. But all

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Speaker 1: those little blue marks Trencha and I have are beginning

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Speaker 1: to look like delicate tattooed bracelets, and we both think

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Speaker 1: they'd look really neat on our wrist. And that's the end. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So it was interesting to reread this because it's been

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Speaker 1: what two decades almost since I read it, and I

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Speaker 1: could I couldn't find it, and it why. One night

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Speaker 1: I just was determined to find it, and I think

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Speaker 1: I texted you about it. Then I was like, we

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Speaker 1: gotta talk about this, um. But one thing in there

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Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to talk about um because I

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Speaker 1: moll culture is kind of dying, has been dying. But

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up, this was a thing. You

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Speaker 1: you go to the mall, you'd get your your frozen

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Speaker 1: yogurt or whatever it was, and there's just so much

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Speaker 1: The pretzels are so good yes, I know exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about. I love them too. Um. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you would kind of hang out with your friends

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Speaker 1: and do this um And I think probably in middle

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Speaker 1: school to high school I would. I would hang out

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Speaker 1: with friends at the mall sometimes. But you know, we

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Speaker 1: both grew up in small towns, so this was a

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Speaker 1: big endeavor, like you had to get out. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was like at least an hour away to get to

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Speaker 1: a mall. But I do think throughout this and even

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Speaker 1: we just see it everywhere, is this kind of fad

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Speaker 1: diet ida, this diet culture thing, this fat phobia of

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Speaker 1: people wanting to to eat these delicious sounding things but

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Speaker 1: not wanting to gain any weight from it. And I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've ever done a fad diet per se,

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Speaker 1: but I've dieted. I've definitely done some extreme dyet, right.

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Speaker 1: I would think that I did not do many fad

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Speaker 1: diets because I just that took too much discipline and

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Speaker 1: I didn't have that uh meaning like whatever the whole

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Speaker 1: thirty um I think existed. And I know Atkins was

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Speaker 1: a huge thing when I was in college, and so

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Speaker 1: people were all about it and I was like, there's

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Speaker 1: no way only eating meat is healthy for you. There's

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Speaker 1: no way. But again, like I was like, whatever, people

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Speaker 1: do what they need to do. I'm not gonna I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna push your judge or anything. But I could

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Speaker 1: not do it. But I was all about the calorie counting,

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Speaker 1: like that is something that I have been really dangerously

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Speaker 1: obsessed with, like keeping underneath a certain amount, and that's

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Speaker 1: my obsession. Was that instead of just necessarily like and

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Speaker 1: I guess Calgary counting is a fat of itself, like

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Speaker 1: kind of a trend in itself tactic, but yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a whole level of like, Okay, this level of obsession,

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Speaker 1: there's something to be concerned about. Yeah. I was the same,

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Speaker 1: And I think I told you for a while I

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Speaker 1: was keeping I was using an app to keep track,

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Speaker 1: and the app actually sent me a message and it said,

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Speaker 1: if this is true, this is dangerous. Right. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is so pervasive and we've talked about it a lot,

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Speaker 1: but especially for younger girls who are kind of observing

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Speaker 1: through perhaps our our moms or other people in our

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Speaker 1: lives or entertainment, Like maybe we're not directly getting the messages,

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Speaker 1: which we usually are, but there's also just this underlying

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Speaker 1: everywhere you look or everything you hear that you should

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Speaker 1: look this way, And I think for me, it's still

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Speaker 1: hard to just enjoy something, to just enjoy, Like if

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Speaker 1: I had a sutie, I would be thinking, like the

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Speaker 1: whole day like guilt. I'd be feeling guilty and like

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Speaker 1: how can I counteract that, which is just not a

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Speaker 1: fun I'm not saying you shouldn't be aware of what

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Speaker 1: you're putting in your body, but I think it goes

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Speaker 1: beyond that. It goes to you can't have those You

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Speaker 1: can't have anything without feeling guilty about it, to be honest. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and sort of that whole idea at the end of

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Speaker 1: ire where they say, you know, we would never give

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Speaker 1: up everything just to look this way, And kind of

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking about that in terms of what we

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Speaker 1: talked about recently with the pandemic and health and how

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Speaker 1: you and I were saying, like, we know we're going

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Speaker 1: to pay for this, just like the title of the

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Speaker 1: story is, like we know I'm not going into the dentist.

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Speaker 1: I need to go to the dast I'm gonna pay

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Speaker 1: for this later. But kind of that putting off of

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Speaker 1: right now, I would rather look this way and I

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Speaker 1: will deal with the impacts later, which is very not

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Speaker 1: eating disorder territory. M hmm. Yeah. And then another big

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Speaker 1: theme throughout this is sort of the whole idea. If

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Speaker 1: it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

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Speaker 1: There is a whole Seinfeld episode about actually frozen yogurt

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Speaker 1: and this very thing. There's not aliens involved, but there

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Speaker 1: is lying about content in the ingredients amount. And also

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Speaker 1: this whole idea of no such thing as a free lunge.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're giving away this free yogurt and people

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Speaker 1: aren't really asking questions because they like it. Uh So

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Speaker 1: it's a big theme throughout. And then just because you know,

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Speaker 1: I love this, Santa, I wanted to touch on some

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Speaker 1: of the old tick because this takes place in right

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Speaker 1: but it's you can tell it's very much an imagined

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Speaker 1: future that is the product of its time. Also, it

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Speaker 1: was written for children. It was specifically aimed towards I

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Speaker 1: think it was I read at high school, but I

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Speaker 1: think it was am towards like seventh and eighth grade.

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Speaker 1: But there's the facts machine. I love that in the

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Speaker 1: eighties and nineties we thought the facts machines. That's the

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Speaker 1: whole like the future for back back literally is how

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Speaker 1: they communicate is via TV, which they weren't wrong because

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Speaker 1: they can do that the whole like computer like skyping

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Speaker 1: video which didn't exist at that point in time. But

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Speaker 1: also the fact machine that was in every room, that

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Speaker 1: every household had, that was the prediction of the future.

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Speaker 1: I know, it cracks me up every time. Um. Also, yes,

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Speaker 1: that malls would still be kind of this place where

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Speaker 1: we congregate and hang out, and maybe we'll also make

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Speaker 1: a comeback. I don't know, but right now I don't

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Speaker 1: they seem to be on their way out right, yes,

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, Japan has an economic power, So I

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Speaker 1: just I find all that interesting when people are imagining

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Speaker 1: the future. And I mean, isn't that far away as

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Speaker 1: scary as that is, But yeah, it's just sort of

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Speaker 1: interesting to see where we are versus what people imagined

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Speaker 1: would be the future. Okay, So I do recommend like

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Speaker 1: if as long as you're not going to be triggered

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Speaker 1: by a weight issues, which I totally understand. Um, if

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Speaker 1: you are, and it's definitely I would say, don't risk it,

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Speaker 1: although you've already come through this, So I recommend it.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, you can find you can find it

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Speaker 1: for free online. It's really short, it's like seven pages.

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Speaker 1: But moving on, let's talk about the Problem of Susan,

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Speaker 1: which is a Neil game in short story you can

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Speaker 1: also find online for free. But it's also a whole

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Speaker 1: concept now, and we're going to talk about that bits.

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Speaker 1: And I did think, you know, we don't normally try

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Speaker 1: to highlight works by men in this segment, but because

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Speaker 1: it did become this whole thing to describe this issue

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Speaker 1: which we are going to talk about if you haven't

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Speaker 1: heard of it, I also thought about Forever Winter, Never Christmas,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of the whole thing of the Lion,

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Speaker 1: which in Wardrobe is Narnias Forever Winter, Never Christmas, as

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Speaker 1: a lot of us are preparing to enter the weekend

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Speaker 1: of snow and chills, I thought it was appropriate. So

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Speaker 1: did you ever read the Chronicles of Narniasmantha? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah. I actually had the old school of version

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Speaker 1: of it where it begins with the Lion, the Witch,

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Speaker 1: and the wardrobe, all of the sixties drawings and its glory.

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Speaker 1: I lost it in a fire and I've been on

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Speaker 1: the search for that type of that specific series because

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Speaker 1: I don't like this new switch up with the Magician's Nephew,

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Speaker 1: which we know is a prequel. I know, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't belong in there like that. He wrote it like

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00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: that for a reason. I'm weirdly purist about that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. N't necessarily so, but I really have

395
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Speaker 1: been trying to find the old school versions of it

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Speaker 1: because I really loved those books. And it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: you brought this back up that I forgot the last battle.

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Speaker 1: I completely forgot what happened out of my head. I

399
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Speaker 1: don't know if because you know, it's been so long

400
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Speaker 1: and it's been a long long time, and I used

401
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Speaker 1: these books when I was teaching the Bible as part

402
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Speaker 1: of my curriculum, um in talking about each of the characters,

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Speaker 1: and I really did forget about Susan's character. In the end,

404
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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, So it's a whole level

405
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Speaker 1: of like trying to remember where where we where we

406
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Speaker 1: came from with this. Also in the movie Ben Barnes,

407
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Speaker 1: That's where I was introduced to Ben Barnes. In the

408
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: second movie who is west World? He was a bad

409
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: guy in Westworld, Yeah, and then he was Yeah. He

410
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: was in several other movies and he's in several other

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Speaker 1: shows that I absolutely love. He was in He's one

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Speaker 1: of the marvel Ones. Is an iron fist. I think

413
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Speaker 1: he's an iron fist, which is forgettable. But any of

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Speaker 1: those things I can't remember. But I loved Ben Barnes

415
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Speaker 1: and I think he's fantastic. But this I remember then

416
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Speaker 1: trying to pair him and Susan Up. I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's twenty years older than her. Stuff this that's a

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Speaker 1: side tracking of all of Chronicles of Narnia. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I loved it, loved it, loved it. I loved C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis during that time in my wondering because he also

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Speaker 1: wasn't as a big snob as Tolkien. I'm sorry when

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Speaker 1: it comes to English literature. I know people are very

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Speaker 1: very like Puris and that mode too, and so therefore

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Speaker 1: I felt like he was a little more open. Do

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Speaker 1: I agree? Like, thinking back on it now and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I have a whole different perspective, but yeah, yeah, I

427
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 1: wanted to me at that point in time. Yeah, I

428
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: love them. When I was a kid, um, I loved

429
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: there was an animated lion, which in the wardrobe I

430
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: loved and I went through such an intense period of

431
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: loving them that I actually wrote fan fiction for it. Yeah,

432
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 1: but I mean it's pretty it's kind of really. There

433
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: are things that I love, love, love more than I

434
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 1: loved that that I never wrote fan fiction for, but

435
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: I wrote fan fiction for it, and that's that's pretty

436
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: indicative of how much I loved it. I in case

437
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: anyone doesn't know what we're talking about, I'm gonna explain

438
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: it more in a second. But depending on when you

439
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: bought these are a book series of seven books. I

440
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: bought them at the time when The Magician's Nephew was

441
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: the first in the series, but for people before me, uh, Lion,

442
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: which in the Wardrobe came first. So if you're confused

443
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 1: by that, I did. I loved it, and then I

444
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: just got so weird about religion and then I kind

445
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: of just turned away. But I do remember him pretty well. Um,

446
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: and we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna get into all of this,

447
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: but okay, for anyone who doesn't know, The Chronicles of

448
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: Narnia is yes, a seven books series written by C. S. Lewis,

449
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: first published in nineteen fifty through nineteen fifty six, and

450
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: there have since been animated and live adaptations for the screen.

451
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: We're not going to go too deeply into the plots.

452
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: Weirdly enough, you can check out the Saver podcast that

453
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: I do. We did an episode on fictional foods of

454
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: Narnia for more information. We really want then because I

455
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: have a weird picture in my head and then when

456
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: someone told him what it was, I was like, wait,

457
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: what Yeah, So it's kind of a gelatin based It's

458
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: usually lightly sweet with like rose and it's got some

459
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: sugar on top, but it's sort of a gelatin light desserts. Now,

460
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,120
Speaker 1: that being said, a lot of people have said it's

461
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: kind of represents drugs this case, Yes, because it is

462
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: something that the which gives out to to Edmund in

463
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: particular in this case to kind of get him hooked. Anyway,

464
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: I love anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about

465
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: must be what is going on here. So many there

466
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: is literal Christian workbooks that go along with the series

467
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: to talk about and analyze the depth of of the

468
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: pretty much the origin story. So it's kind of like

469
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 1: saying this is a taking genesis into a modern detail,

470
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: which is also why TOKEN didn't like it, Like as

471
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 1: you're hitting there being too obvious and over the top

472
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: right back to right, which we'll touch on in a

473
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: second more a little bit. But Okay, despite the fact

474
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: that Lewis, who yes, wrote a lot about religion, was

475
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: adamant these books weren't an allegory a religious allegory and

476
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: specific they have often been interpreted through religious lends, with

477
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: Narnia being Heaven and Aslin being God and or Jesus.

478
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: There's even a whole magic apple temptation thing that goes on. Yeah,

479
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: there's a lot we could get into, but that would

480
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: be a different podcast. So for our purposes, we're focusing

481
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: on the Pevency children, Peter, Susan, Edmund, and Lucy, who

482
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: have adventures and become royalty in Narnia. However, as Susan

483
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: grows older, she is quote no longer a friend of Narnia,

484
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: a k for a lot of people. Yep, heaven. Even

485
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: though yes, Lewis disputed this and said perhaps one day

486
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 1: Susan could find her way. Um, yeah, she's the second oldest,

487
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: she's the oldest daughter of this group, but so why

488
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: is she no longer a friend of Narnia? Here we go,

489
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: Here's the whole exchange from the book the last Battle,

490
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: which is the final book. My sister, Susan, answered Peter

491
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: shortly and gravely. Is no longer a friend of Narnia, yes,

492
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: said Eustace. And whenever you try to get her to

493
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: come and talk about Narnia or do anything about Narnia,

494
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: she says, what wonderful memories you have? Fancy you're still

495
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: thinking about all these funny games we used to play

496
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: when we were children, Oh, Susan, said Jill. She's interested

497
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: in nothing nowadays except nylons and lipstick and invitations. She

498
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: always was a jolly sight too, keen on being grown up.

499
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: Grown up indeed, said the lady Polly, I wish you

500
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: would grow up. She wasted all her school time wanting

501
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: to be the age she is now, and she'll waste

502
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: all the rest of her life trying to stay that age.

503
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: Her whole idea is to race onto the silliest time

504
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: of one's life as quick as she can, and then

505
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: stop there as long as she can. Yep, and that's

506
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: pretty much it. Um. That's pretty much the attitude about

507
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: her from everyone, her family and friends. Notably, Lucy doesn't

508
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: say anything during this exchange, as doesn't sing anything during

509
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: this exchange, right, I find it. I like, again, we'll

510
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: come back to it. But in my mind she had

511
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: the very first book. She was already too grown as well,

512
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: and they accused her of that from jump, So I

513
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: found that interesting that that's how it built up. But

514
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: again I forgot the last battle completely, So well, here

515
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: we go. Susan was always the more practical one. That

516
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: she was a caregiver, and I feel like that seems

517
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: on brand, which makes sense because the children had lost

518
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: their mother and she was always making sure they had

519
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: their COEs and that they ate. She is the oldest

520
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: girl and referred to as quote little mother. She was kind, gentle,

521
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: and yes, very beautiful. So what's the issue. It seemed

522
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: to be she's choosing being an adult over Narnia and

523
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: as Land the fantasy essentially. Um Lewis wrote in a

524
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: letter about her that she was quote a rather silly,

525
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: conceited young woman, even though that really doesn't seem to

526
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: match up with everything else we the readers knew about her,

527
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: although we are supposed to think her annoying. Um some

528
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: believe he did this more out of his need for

529
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: her to represent something quote the believer that walks away

530
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: from faith instead of telling the story true to the character. Yeah. So, uh,

531
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: there's this is kind of a tricky conversation actually because

532
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: and we're going to get into it, but it almost

533
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 1: seems like it was just confusion, like it was kind

534
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: of out of nowhere. There was no attempt like this.

535
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: There was sus mentioned of her. She's not coming back

536
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: to Narnia, and that's it. Like there was no attempt

537
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: to redeem her or talk to her or anything with her.

538
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: It was just like, oh, never talk about her again, right, Yeah? Good.

539
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: Like I said to you when we were originally talking

540
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: about this, I was like I had to go back

541
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: and figure out what happened because I didn't exactly understand

542
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: what just happened in the book when I read originally

543
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: read the book and to the point, uh, and we're

544
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: going to talk about more about this later, I know.

545
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: But um, this was during the time that passion and

546
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: purity was big. I don't know if you know this book, Annie,

547
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm very critical. I'm so sorry for

548
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: the religious listeners if you're offended by this, But I

549
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: will say it brought me a lot of pain. This

550
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: one book that talks about a woman's place in religion.

551
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: It is very stereotypical, um, and some of the things

552
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: that I get what they're saying at the same time,

553
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: could be really damaging to women. We talked about this

554
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: during the Purity during our episode, but I think that's

555
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: what Susan represented as being anti Christian woman if thats

556
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: too worldly, Yeah, yeah, now that makes sense, um, And

557
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 1: we're definitely gonna break some of that down to you.

558
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: And we are one day going to do an episode

559
00:32:54,240 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: on religious trauma and that's going to be fun. Um.

560
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: Last that deserved kind of frightened. So another point to

561
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 1: make here is Peter, who is older than Susan, was

562
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: told he was too old to return to Narnia, but

563
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: he did and she didn't. And to male characters get

564
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: painful redemption arcs, but she does not. And you mentioned

565
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: earlier one of the worst characters to me and this

566
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: entire book. And yes, it's supposed to be that he

567
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: was childish and didn't understand he'd gone through trauma. He

568
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: lost his parents too, and was a brat essentially, But yeah,

569
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: after he just turned into a dragon for his greed

570
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 1: and then freed of Best Spell, he repents essentially to Muslin.

571
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: And becomes whole again. But yeah, I think it's really

572
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: interesting because Lucy and Edmund are too old which is

573
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: why you see Eustace and Jill come into play, because

574
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: they're young enough to believe these, so they technically aged

575
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: out too. Yeah. Yeah, and that's um. There are listeners.

576
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: You might be surprised at how many people have written

577
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: long essays about this, So so many, and they were

578
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: all really interesting and a lot of them had different

579
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: viewpoints which I found interesting too. Um. But somebody was saying, like,

580
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: essentially the message we're supposed to take is that you

581
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: have to be young and believe, never grow up and

582
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: never like being an adult and take care of people,

583
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: or you can't go to what is essentially happened, right,

584
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: So it's um, And I just remember the city I

585
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 1: have Somewhere in one of my journals, I went through

586
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: and did a whole dive not only in the books,

587
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: but compared it to specific Bible verses like I went in.

588
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: So yeah again when I say, these meant a lot

589
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: to me at that point in time. Um, yeah, And

590
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: essentially this is kind of a play into childlike faith,

591
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: like he was being literal, even though he probably would

592
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: deny it, but it is literal, right, yeah, no, no, no,

593
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of interesting quotes about this, uh C.

594
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: S Lewis. But okay, going back to what you were

595
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: saying about, you know, the good Christian woman. Um. I

596
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: think a lot of folks thought that this whole sort

597
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: of writing out of Susan. It was more that she

598
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: had become shallow. But a lot of people point out,

599
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: and I think we should point out that the things

600
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: that are listed are feminine things, patriarchal, feminine things put

601
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: onto Susan who has been told she needs to be

602
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: an adult and take care of her siblings. And I

603
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: think for a long time my interpretation was that too.

604
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 1: Before I kind of got more nuanced as I grow

605
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: up well as a kid, I was like, oh, she

606
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: wants to grow up. It's just gross, like so shallow.

607
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,040
Speaker 1: She could go to Narcia and be having fun, but

608
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: instead she wants to do this. But it is very feminized,

609
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: Like we can't turn away from the fact that it

610
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: is purposely or not that is very feminized the things

611
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: he lists, but also these are things that he lists

612
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: when women want to feel good about themselves. The lipstick,

613
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: the stockings are very specific during a time where you're

614
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: supposed to be natural and cowering, and so that was

615
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 1: too bold of her to be. So I feel like

616
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: that's to this day that would be listed as a

617
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: good god the character to dress up for your man,

618
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: only for your man, obviously or for your yea in

619
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: this man this very also a heteronormative in this idea.

620
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: But but that fact, at that point in time, that

621
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 1: was even too much, and that was being too loud,

622
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: essentially too proud of what you look like. And so

623
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: for women to be that at that point in time

624
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 1: was a sin. And so you see that turn like

625
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 1: m hmm, yeah, yeah, And I mean I think in

626
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: case we didn't make it clear she's a teenager. I

627
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: think she may be twenty, like getting at past school

628
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: a little bit when this happens. So I mean, it's

629
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: just kind of a natural face for for women. But

630
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 1: it does feel like when you're reading it, like, oh wow,

631
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: she can't go to heaven because she did this. Yeah yeah,

632
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: And and as as we said already C. S. Lewis,

633
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: he denies this, but also says she has time to repent,

634
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 1: like it's not over for her, but also it is

635
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: for us because no one else wrote that story. We

636
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: can imagine it, we can write a fan fix and

637
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: if we want. But well, speaking of okay, all of

638
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: this discussion around this character led to Neil Gaiman writing

639
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: The Problem of Susan in two thousand four, and the

640
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: phrase has yes become sort of a catch all to

641
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: describe feminists and literary investigation into the character, which, as

642
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: I said, there's a lot and it's actually really really interesting.

643
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: I recommend going to look into it more. But this

644
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: whole thing was later turned into a comic. Both are

645
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: fairly graphic in terms of violence and sex and sexual violence.

646
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: So just astrix that if that's not something you're into,

647
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: you can definitely read about it and not have to

648
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: read the whole thing, which is also very short. So

649
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 1: the plot centers on Professor Hastings, an older woman who

650
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 1: strongly resembles Susan, who lost her family in a train crash,

651
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: which is how the Last Battle ended. Um Susan loses

652
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: her family in a train crash, It opens with her

653
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: dreaming that she is with her siblings on a battlefield,

654
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: surrounded by the bodies of dead creatures. Later that day,

655
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: she is interviewed by a student named Greta, who is

656
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: doing a profile on Hastings for the Literary Chronicle. Hastings

657
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: is an author known for her work A Quest for

658
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,840
Speaker 1: the Meanings in Children's Fiction. The two are discussing the

659
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: history of children's fiction and famous examples when Greta realizes

660
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: that Hastings lost her entire family and it's rain accident

661
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: and says, just like Susan, And she tells Hastings how

662
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: much that bothered her as a kid um so much

663
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: so that she spoke to her teacher about it, and

664
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: the teacher told her Susan still had time to repent

665
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: not believing and the sin of Eve. So that was

666
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: what the teacher kind of said was her sin was

667
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: not believing. Also the whole thing with Eve that we

668
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: talked about being a woman. Yes, So all of this

669
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: prompts Gretta to say, there must have been something else

670
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: wrong with Susan, something they didn't tell us, otherwise she

671
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been damned like that, denied the heaven of

672
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: Further up and further in, Hastings says that she doubted

673
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: Susan had time for lipstick and nylons after her whole

674
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: family died, and that quote. I don't know about the

675
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: girl in the books, but remaining behind would have also

676
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: meant that she was able to identify her brothers and

677
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 1: her little sister's bodies. There were a lot of people

678
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: dead in that crash. I was taken to a nearby school.

679
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: It was the first day of term and they had

680
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 1: taken the bodies there. My older brother looked okay, like

681
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: he was asleep. The other two were a bit messier.

682
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: I remember looking at them and thinking, what if I'm wrong,

683
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: What if it's not him? After all, my younger brother

684
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 1: was decapitated. You know a god who would punish me

685
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: for liking nylons and parties by making me walk through

686
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: that school dining room with the flies to identify ed. Well,

687
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: he's enjoying himself a bit too much, Is any like

688
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 1: a cat getting the last ounce of enjoyment out of

689
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: a mouse? Right? Which is how the story begins, By

690
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 1: the way, Hastings cuts the interview short, and that night

691
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 1: sleeps in her childhood bed looking through old photos. She

692
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,479
Speaker 1: notices children's books on the bedside tables and knows she's

693
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: dreaming because she's never kept these kinds of books around.

694
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: The one on top of the pile shows two girls

695
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: weaving daisies into a lion's maine. Meanwhile, Greta dreams that

696
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: she is on the same battlefield and Aslin and the

697
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: Witch have come to an agreement. She will take the

698
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: boys and he will take the girls. She understands what

699
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: must have happened, and she runs, but the beast is

700
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: upon her before she's covered a dozen paces. The lion

701
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: eats all of her except her head with a long

702
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: in her dream, and he leaves the head in one

703
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: of her hands, just like the house gat at the

704
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 1: beginning of the story leaves parts of a mouse it

705
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: has no desire for for later or as a gift,

706
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: again referencing how Susan found a mouse at the door

707
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 1: bats at the beginning of the story. Yeah, yeah, so

708
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: that was a lot of that was quote. Greta watches,

709
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: unable to shut her eyes as her brothers are transformed

710
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: into monsters, and then quote the great piece ate her

711
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: little sister more slowly, and it seemed to her with

712
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: more relish and pleasure than it had eaten her. But

713
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: then her little sister had always been its favorite. Then

714
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: the witch disrobes and the lion tongues her and they

715
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: have sex, making Greta slash Susan kind of in this

716
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: dream um watch, before finally eating her head. Greta wakes

717
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 1: up thinking it's true that Susan didn't die, that this

718
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: whole thing actually happened. And then here's another quote. She

719
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: imagines the professor waking in the night and listening to

720
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: the noises coming from the old applewood wardrobe in the corner,

721
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: to the wrestlings of all these gliding ghosts, which might

722
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: be mistaken for the sk worries of mycer rats, and

723
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: to the padding of enormous velvet pause and the distant,

724
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 1: dangerous music of a hunting horn. She knows she is

725
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: being ridiculous, although she will not be surprised when she

726
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: reads of her professor's demise. Death comes in the night,

727
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: she thinks, before she returns to sleep like a lion.

728
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: The white Witch rides naked on the lion's golden back.

729
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: Its muzzle is spotted with fresh scarlet blood. Then the

730
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: vast pinkness of its tongue wipes around its face, and

731
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: once more it is perfectly clean. Okay, so there's a

732
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: lot of things we can discuss about this. Obviously, I

733
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: did want to include this quote game and set about it.

734
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 1: There's so much in the books that I love, but

735
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,320
Speaker 1: each time I found the disposal Susan to be intensely

736
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: problematic and deeply irritating. I suppose I wanted to write

737
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 1: a story that would be equally problematic and just as

738
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: much of an irritant, if from a different direction, and

739
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: to talk about the remarkable power of children's literature. And

740
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: He's not the only author to I've spoken out about this.

741
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 1: Philip Pullman said, I just don't like the conclusions Lewis

742
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: comes to after all that analysis, the way he touch

743
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: children out from heaven or whatever it is, on the

744
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: grounds that one girl is interested in boys, she's a teenager.

745
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: It's terrible sex can't have that. Yeah, yeah, okay, so yeah,

746
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: we've already been I'm so excited that you know a

747
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: lot about this. Samantha and I I got some background

748
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: and we have kind of how did it impact us?

749
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 1: So as we discussed a lot of people took away

750
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: from this whole thing that feminine things like makeup and

751
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: stockings are frivolous and sinful and worth shutting you out

752
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 1: of heaven for and eve kind of being the representative

753
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: kind of the first example of that, and because I

754
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: feel like my favorite character was Lucy, but a lot

755
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: of people said, like she, Susan was their favorite character,

756
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: and she was generally well liked, even if she wasn't.

757
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: She wasn't like a hated character, right, And to have

758
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: her just suddenly when you know, even she was queen,

759
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: she was Susan the gentle and she was, you know,

760
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,839
Speaker 1: taking care of children who needed it and just very

761
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: kind and to kind of have that go from that too, well,

762
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: she's gone and that's the that's the end of that.

763
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: Don't worry. You know, it's interesting too because when we

764
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 1: see the flashbacks where they meet the adult queens and

765
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: she is being forced into an arranged marriage, that's right, right,

766
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: and she's the one that refuses to do so unless

767
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 1: you can pick her own, which would have been seen

768
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: as valiant. But yeah, that's not remembered. It's it's quite

769
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 1: fascinating how the adult version of her in Narnia does

770
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: not compare to the adult version of her in the

771
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: real world and why would it be so? Um? But

772
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,439
Speaker 1: I did, I do remember that a specific scene because

773
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, girl, go ahead, tell him you're not

774
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,479
Speaker 1: gonna marry anyone, you know, like you can choose because

775
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: you are the high queen. You do you and then

776
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: we see that flip, but like, yeah, it definitely does

777
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 1: feel it needed to be a little bit on the nose,

778
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: whether it's it was Louis showing his disapproval for how

779
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 1: women were acting during that time and wanted to bring

780
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: him back to this is a religion or not, or

781
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: this is godly and what's not? Or whether he just

782
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: needed a villain and he found a way to make

783
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: one of them a villain and it made sense for

784
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: him as she is a woman and disposable. Yeah, well

785
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: that's I'm glad you brought that up because somebody wrote

786
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: a really interesting essay about kind of that idea, where

787
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: the author was saying, there's sort of a funny thing

788
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: happening here that game and comments on directly is that

789
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: we are really interpreting, like as the audience interpreting in

790
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: a way that perhaps he didn't mean it, but it

791
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact we're in herpreting it that way,

792
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 1: and that's how it impact. It does. But the author

793
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: was saying, like, basically, he got kind of lazy, and

794
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: so we've got four kids. You've got Edmund, who is

795
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: the betrayer who comes back. You've got Lucy who's the

796
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: natural believer. You've got Peter, who is like the stuff.

797
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: He's Peter at the st Peter essentially, and he needed

798
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 1: somebody to be the opposite of Edmund, of the person

799
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: who believed and then walked away, and she was the

800
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: one that was left, and so he put it on her.

801
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:35,920
Speaker 1: But we were all as readers like, but wait, it

802
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense with all the other stuff you said,

803
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: which which is? I thought that was a really interesting

804
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: take on that. And throughout Gaiman's short story, there are

805
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: these signifiers of sex associated with evil. You've got the

806
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,360
Speaker 1: witches lipstick, you've got handset, professor hasting sexuality, um and

807
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 1: the dream She notices the dead center's penis um and

808
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: wonders what it would have been like to kiss him. Um.

809
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 1: She remembers pat sexual experiences with men, making the point

810
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: that in this framework, in this story, Susan is tied

811
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: to evil for being sexual like this is wrong. There's

812
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: also throughout the frivolous desire for youth um quote, there

813
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 1: are things about herself that the Professor despises her smell.

814
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: For example, she smells like her grandmother smelled like old

815
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: women smell, and for this she cannot forgive herself. So

816
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: on waking she bays and scented water and naked and

817
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 1: towel Gied adapts several drops of she nailed toilet water

818
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: beneath her arms and on her neck. Um. And that's

819
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: kind of like in there too. Of I guess it

820
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: feels like a contrast between she wanted to be an adult,

821
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: that kind of narrative, she always wanted to be an adult,

822
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: and now that she is one, she's also kind of

823
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: punishing herself and being societally punished for being an older woman. Right. Yeah,

824
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: there's also I just want to put this in here

825
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: because it's suck out to me how she thought she

826
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: was old when she quote lost what was left of

827
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: her virginity at twenty, which I think probably a lot

828
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: of us can identify with about thinking that's old and

829
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 1: then when you get older thinking oh no, that was

830
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: so young. Yeah, you're a ready exactly exactly. Um. She

831
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: also hastings thinks about how young Greta looks. Another interesting

832
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: take I read was this kind of idea that like God,

833
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: the patriarchy comes for us all that if God, in

834
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: the context of literature is the creation of man, and

835
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: in this particular case it is if we're saying, like

836
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: as Land is the godlike figure and CUIs is a

837
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: man of his time that wrote it, and it stands

838
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: to reason that he is a part of the patriarchy.

839
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: So this whole idea of like the God in this

840
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: case as Land punishing Susan for being feminine or not

841
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: fitting into whatever rules of this patriarchy, I thought that

842
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: was an interesting an interesting take as well. Right, and

843
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,839
Speaker 1: when we again, when we talk about Susan's role and

844
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: the individual roles that he has placed on these characters,

845
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: it is very obvious that it is a very male

846
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: lead throughout, whether it's Caspian that we're talking about bin

847
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: Barn's character that I mentioned earlier, Um coming to find

848
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: the father, and or talking about as Land being this

849
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: lion who comes roaring through and Evil being a woman,

850
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: a witch till the Swinton who play the hell out

851
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: of that character gets hell out of me. I'm not

852
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: gonna lie, but like, really obviously again women leader, evil,

853
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: bat um, there's definitely notes of that that you have.

854
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: You can't really ignore any of that. He does mentioned

855
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 1: to Lucy that she would not be a part of

856
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: the battle, that she would be the healer, and though

857
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: actually Susan is a part of the battle. She has

858
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: the bow and she but she's also has a call

859
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,720
Speaker 1: for help, which Peter comes running to. So like, there's

860
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 1: a lot of things for sure. Yeah, yeah, you know,

861
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: that's a good point. A lot of people um brought

862
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: that up as well. It's like, if you look at

863
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: the earlier ones, while she was always sort of the

864
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: practical one, she was also pretty like she wrote on

865
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: Nason's back, she was there when he was resurrected, like

866
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 1: she was pretty stalwart. So yeah, just not that you

867
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: can't go from being stalwart and not being stalard. But again,

868
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: it was just one of those things where people were like,

869
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: this doesn't track, it doesn't feel right. As we said,

870
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 1: there's that whole messaging of being adult equals being bad,

871
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: especially for women. Then there is trauma, so that the

872
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: impetus behind this story that Neil Gaiman wrote actually was

873
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: imagining like Susan was a woman who was left behind,

874
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: she lost her whole family, and there's a scene at

875
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,719
Speaker 1: the end where it is kind of confusing, but yeah,

876
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: they die in this train accident, and then they're in

877
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: Narnia and as the reader, we realized they've died, and yeah,

878
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: they're in Narnia and you know, they're happy and embracing

879
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 1: and all this stuff, and Uson really doesn't not mentioned.

880
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: So she was just left behind and she's going to

881
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 1: deal with this aftermath. And some people really hurt that

882
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: there wasn't even a thought. There wasn't even like exactly,

883
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: but if we're looking at a Christian perspective of heaven,

884
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: that's the intent is that you will forget that trauma,

885
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 1: and if she has a trauma, part of that trauma,

886
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: you don't remember her like that is the joy of

887
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 1: heaven because honestly, that's one of the things that didn't

888
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 1: trek with me. I was really hurt by the idea

889
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: that I would forget everyone go to heaven, and that

890
00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: is kind of that narrative that you forget everyone. And again,

891
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go into the religious back and

892
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: forth about religious religious trauma, which I laughed about earlier

893
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: because I was like, there's a lot there, but that

894
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: is one of the thoughts is yeah, I don't I

895
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:51,759
Speaker 1: think this is why I'm so confused because I'm still

896
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,560
Speaker 1: too connected to well, something bad happened that translated into

897
00:51:55,640 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: something amazing happening, And yeah, that means they forget everything,

898
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,760
Speaker 1: and so that includes their sister who they had loved.

899
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 1: Um and she is no longer a part of the

900
00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: story and not no longer a part of the narrative,

901
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:12,720
Speaker 1: and yeah, having her in this case go to identify

902
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:14,880
Speaker 1: the bodies in this short story or like she's going

903
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: to be dealing with this right, which is just very

904
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: very painful. Um. And something else we've already mentioned, and

905
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: we've mentioned a lot that these stories are more forgiving

906
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 1: to white male characters and their trauma, and people pointed

907
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: that out a lot of it. They was repenting and

908
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: redeeming for a lot of male characters, but not so

909
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: much characters like you either were always a believer or

910
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: you did one mistake and you're out. Well yeah, and

911
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if I just remember one thing that

912
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: really bothered me and had nothing to do with Susan.

913
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: But when they do return, and Lucy was supposed to

914
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: make them believe in and ASLN got mad at her

915
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: because she did could not convince them, and really kind

916
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: of state like called her out again. This is kind

917
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: of that trauma, religious drauma that whether C. S. Lewis

918
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 1: meant to do it, whether it was just something that

919
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: was like supposed to be storytelling, but it's very true,

920
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: like this guilt on Christians in general. Why didn't you

921
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: convert them? You partially damn them to hell because you

922
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 1: could not convince them? Right, Yeah, I I will never

923
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: forget one time when I was in seventh grade, my

924
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,919
Speaker 1: algebra teacher told me, it's like I'm watching you walk

925
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: off a cliff and I just want to save you.

926
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I had that done at

927
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,919
Speaker 1: my workplace when I was a d J j as.

928
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,359
Speaker 1: She was just like, you know, I love you so much.

929
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: I don't want this for you. And I looked at

930
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 1: I was like, I know what you're doing and it's

931
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: sweet and I know you made those love But okay,

932
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 1: math teacher, can we go back to now and then

933
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: really briefly to close this up, because I really I

934
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: find this so so interesting and legitimately I find this interesting.

935
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 1: A lot of people did make this argument of kind

936
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: of a distinction between what C. S. Lewis meant and

937
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 1: what he said he meant versus what we interpreted and

938
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: how much how much it matters or shouldn't matter. I

939
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: think another interesting point somebody made is unless you went

940
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: and like research to this and looked up the letters

941
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: he wrote specifically about Susan that people wrote in about

942
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: him and like why did you do this? And he

943
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: would respond, you wouldn't know. His response, we only have

944
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: the books. Really unless you go beyond that, and some

945
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: people did. We're saying, like, there's just a very interesting

946
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 1: line between kind of what Gaman was talking about in

947
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 1: this short story of researching children's book and searching for

948
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: men like you and I did, and then maybe being

949
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: hurt by that or maybe internalizing these messages that might

950
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: not have been intended but that did have the impact,

951
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: especially for kids that the young age. So I just

952
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 1: I thought that was really interesting. And Lewis once wrote

953
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:10,240
Speaker 1: to someone that he thought this person who was concerned

954
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: about Susan should go write the story of Susan. Was

955
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: he being smart, alec I don't think so. He might

956
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 1: have been. He said it was like older he liked

957
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: children's literature that was more of an adult thing. But

958
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 1: a lot of people did say this was what was missing.

959
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,960
Speaker 1: We needed the story of Susan after this, like if

960
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: you're just going to write her out, we needed something

961
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 1: and that's why we're still talking about it today. That's

962
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: why there's a whole thing called the He could do

963
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: a post. Yeah, well maybe it's time not anymore, but

964
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: you and I could get in on this. Actually probably

965
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: could lawyers and stuff, but this is what the picture

966
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:56,120
Speaker 1: is for. But yeah, this was a fun conversation. I'm

967
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: glad we had it. If you could return to it

968
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: another day, Uh, absolutely, I think especially when it comes

969
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: to like religious religious fiction and women in the connotations,

970
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: because I read many a religious romance novels and let

971
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 1: me tell you the amount of marital discourse and what

972
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,839
Speaker 1: women were supposed to do and be. Man, that's dramatizing

973
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: in itself. Um, not even read one book where she

974
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: was raped, got left by her pastor husband, and but

975
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 1: she was accepted by another godly man, so she's okay, wow, yeah,

976
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,879
Speaker 1: all right. Well I thought it was something at the time,

977
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: and I thought it was something at the time. Was

978
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 1: coming back to now, Oh my god, what was I thinking? Yeah,

979
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's time what we're talking about. Why

980
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,239
Speaker 1: did somebody say it's like we're searching for meaning or

981
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 1: meaning wasn't there, but we made it then. But because

982
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,840
Speaker 1: of the product of their time and how we're raised

983
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: and how it was written, who can blame us? Who

984
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,799
Speaker 1: can blame us? Okay, well, we've we've talked a lot

985
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:04,920
Speaker 1: about this. I love it so listeners. If you have

986
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: any short stories or any books um to recommend to

987
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: us for this, or any recommendations at all, we love

988
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: to get them. You can email us at Stephania mom

989
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 1: Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can find

990
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at Mom's Podcast or on Instagram at

991
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 1: stuff One Never Told You. Thanks as always to our

992
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: super producer Christina the Best Oh Yes, and thanks to

993
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 1: you for listening stuff on our toty's protection of I

994
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 1: Heart Radio for more podcast, my heart Radio is the

995
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: heart radio app. Up a podcast or ready listen to

996
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.