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Speaker 1: I guess I grew up a row. Hey, everybody welcomed

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Speaker 1: episode one hundred and sixty nine The Hunting Collective. I

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Speaker 1: as always in Ben O'Brien, and we got a bit

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Speaker 1: of an issue today. Phil the Engineer is out. Uh,

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Speaker 1: he's out sick. He told me just now. I just

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Speaker 1: talked to him to confirm. He doesn't believe it's the coronavirus.

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Speaker 1: He hasn't had it yet, but he's out. He's under

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Speaker 1: the weather. So thoughts and prayers to fill filthy engineer.

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Speaker 1: So we have a fill in stand in. I feel

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Speaker 1: like maybe better than Philly Engineer. Maybe Phil Philly Engineer.

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Speaker 1: Two point Oh it's Brian Lynn from the Sports Alliance. Brian,

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Speaker 1: what is up? Well, we probably could have used Phil

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Speaker 1: to help set this thing up as struggle with technology,

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Speaker 1: but we got so you're here. Here, We're here. That's

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Speaker 1: all that matters. That's all that matters. We well, like

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Speaker 1: what's going on in your world? I just literally just

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Speaker 1: called you and gave you like a five minute heads up?

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Speaker 1: Hey man, can you co host this portion of the program?

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Speaker 1: And you're kind enough to just jump in Stop what

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Speaker 1: you were doing? Stop what you were doing? Ye, things

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Speaker 1: are good. Just getting ready for that warm weather. Some

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Speaker 1: turkey embars season coming up. Oh I can't wait. We

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Speaker 1: got a special guest at the end of the podcast

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Speaker 1: that people are just sticking around for h He has

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Speaker 1: a really important question for everybody. But um, he actually

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Speaker 1: went out and helped me build a turkey blind this weekend.

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Speaker 1: So we did a lot of a lot of turkey hunting,

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Speaker 1: me and a bunch of buddies, not turkey hunting, turkey

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Speaker 1: blind building, turkey prep time over here man, and the

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Speaker 1: birds were actually gobbling in Montana in the middle of March. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was, Oh my god. It just shivers my spine

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Speaker 1: when I hear it, and I just closed my eyes

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Speaker 1: and I think the wonderful times to come? So you

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Speaker 1: got are you? Are you guys gonna actually be able

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Speaker 1: to hunt bears this year? And watchington. Nobody's banned it yet,

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Speaker 1: like it hasn't. Nobody's got to it. You can do

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Speaker 1: the spotting stock they banned baiting and hounds. Okay, spotting

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Speaker 1: stock only. I'm actually probably gonna go over to Idaho

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Speaker 1: and uh hunt with a cousin, so so do that

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Speaker 1: and do Yeah it's more free. Well we'll we talked

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Speaker 1: about that coming up in this episode with Dr James Tantillo,

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Speaker 1: our favorite Cornell ethicist, a man who's been on the

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Speaker 1: podcast a bunch of times and he thinks very critically

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Speaker 1: about ethics and hunting morality. So we we flipped them

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Speaker 1: a topic that Brian, I know you're familiar with, and

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Speaker 1: that's uh Coyote. I guess what we'll call it wildlife

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Speaker 1: killing contest because that's exactly what it's framed as by

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Speaker 1: the folks who want to ban it. Um. We talked

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Speaker 1: to Dr Tantillo about that, Old Jim about that. Um,

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Speaker 1: he had some great opinions that I somebody I was

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Speaker 1: a little bit surprised to hear him go on, but

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Speaker 1: uh totally and definitely agreed with what he has to say.

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Speaker 1: So everybody stick around for that. But before we get

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Speaker 1: to him, Brian, are you aware of Project Coyote? Do

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Speaker 1: you know what this is? Oh? Yeah, yeah, they're They're

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Speaker 1: behind a lot of this stuff and uh always facing

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Speaker 1: off against him. So you have a adversarial relationship you

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Speaker 1: would say with Project Coyote. Yeah, it's not it's not

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Speaker 1: a friendly one. That's what are they? Man? Because I

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Speaker 1: will say we said this in our interview with Dr Tantillo.

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Speaker 1: I heard about them from my non hunting I guess

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Speaker 1: you'd call them non consumptive user filmmaker friends. Like there

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Speaker 1: was a video going around of a film that was

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Speaker 1: made um by or at least four Project Coyote, and

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Speaker 1: there was a trailer going around about wildlife killing contests,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was compelling, to say the least,

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Speaker 1: And so this film came out. Um there's an official trailer.

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Speaker 1: It's connected to a movement, Uh stop the Kill. There's

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Speaker 1: a petition, as they're almost always is. But I would

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Speaker 1: admit to at least in in the forefront of my mind,

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Speaker 1: this is the first time I had seen Project Coyote.

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Speaker 1: I don't see a lot of people in the hunting

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Speaker 1: space talking about them, so you find that, uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people don't talk about them, but they're

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Speaker 1: they're behind the scenes. They're just another animal rights group.

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Speaker 1: And just like we have Quail Forever and Deer Alliance

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Speaker 1: and our different credter groups, everybody on the other side

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Speaker 1: has their credter groups, Project Coyote, Mountain Lion Foundation, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're all have their credit groups too, and Project

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Speaker 1: Coyote is one of those UM that is behind a

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Speaker 1: lot of legislation to stop coyote hunting, stop contests. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They jump on board with other initiatives and legislation Mountain Lions,

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Speaker 1: you know, for example, and they'll put out so called

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Speaker 1: facts and talking points and the emotional side of things

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Speaker 1: to try to ban this. Yeah. That's uh their official

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Speaker 1: trailer that only has four thousand views, so we're probably contributing,

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Speaker 1: contributing to uh, to the views there for this. This

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Speaker 1: podcast is bumping them up a little bit. But if

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Speaker 1: you look at UM, the film and the filmmaker and

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Speaker 1: uh try to suss this out. I mean, this is

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Speaker 1: this people that love wild like this is people that

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Speaker 1: UM want to see this thing end and are as

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Speaker 1: we talked about with Dr Chantillo are looking at this

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Speaker 1: from ethics and morality standpoint. They're using all the same

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Speaker 1: language as we used for all these other bands we

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Speaker 1: discussed UM. And then you start looking at the comments

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Speaker 1: when they're on their trailer hunting is this guy Yoshi

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Speaker 1: Girl twenty eight, Here's what she said, Brian, I want

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Speaker 1: to get get your Actually, this hunting is an illness.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who kills animals as a hobby has something wrong

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Speaker 1: with them. They are getting pleasure from the suffering of

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Speaker 1: the most innocent beings. It's sickening. They need help. That

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Speaker 1: got twelve likes. Uh any official response for the sports

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Speaker 1: of two lines to that comment. I'm just not sure

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Speaker 1: if I can use that kind of language on the air. UM, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just what do you say? It's okay, you got

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Speaker 1: your opinion. Everybody's got an opinion. Uh, you're not a doctor,

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Speaker 1: you're not a psychologist, and you don't know anything, so

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Speaker 1: like I don't I can't even say anything. I just

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Speaker 1: you do you, I'll do me, roll your eyes and

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Speaker 1: move on. Unfortunately, Uh, all that hyperbole and all of

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Speaker 1: that uh ideology speak that comes from the animal right

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Speaker 1: side leads to legislation. As we've talked about in other episodes. UM,

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Speaker 1: and and looking forward, just a very pragmatic, objective conversation

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Speaker 1: with the subject UM doesn't seem to be something that

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Speaker 1: we could find once we get deep into this and

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Speaker 1: and again, I the the trailer for this this uh

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Speaker 1: and we'll put up We'll put a link up to

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Speaker 1: with the trailer for this documentary is floating around h

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Speaker 1: in a lot of circles and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that have millions of followers were sharing it. So it

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Speaker 1: made its rounds and it made an impact. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: so we really just can't ignore it. But there are

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Speaker 1: there is legislation still out there to ban uh wildlife

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Speaker 1: killing contests across the nation, is there not? Yes? Or uh? Well,

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Speaker 1: last year it started and there was more than a

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Speaker 1: dozen states simultaneously. This this is a completely a coordinated effort.

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Speaker 1: Actually sat in on an Humane Society United States webinar

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Speaker 1: on how they were going to do this in the

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Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest, you know, and they were given instructions, given

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Speaker 1: updates how they were going to do it, which politicians

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Speaker 1: were gonna help them, who was friendly. But it was

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Speaker 1: interesting because last year, when you looked at this and

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Speaker 1: you saw this happen, you saw the animal rights movement,

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Speaker 1: their belief system. It was like in a microcosm. It

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Speaker 1: started down in uh in New Mexico by executive order

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Speaker 1: they banned it on on state owned land kyak tests,

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Speaker 1: and it moved up the West coast as it does,

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Speaker 1: and by the time it even got up to Oregon,

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Speaker 1: it was wildlife contest, not just kyote contests. Even in Montana,

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Speaker 1: it was any predator that it was a contest for,

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Speaker 1: and then it moved to Wisconsin, and then to the

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Speaker 1: East coast New York, New Jersey, Maryland, and then by

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Speaker 1: the time it came back and circled back across the

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Speaker 1: country in Nevada, it was a felony. It was the

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Speaker 1: equivalent of manslaughter if you participated in or promoted even

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Speaker 1: put it on social media, promoting a wildlife contest. And

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Speaker 1: that's their ultimate goal, you know. And so you've got

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Speaker 1: to see their kind of their evolution within a microcosm

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Speaker 1: in one year of what they actually want to accomplish.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, um. And one of the fact sheets that

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Speaker 1: Project Reality UM put out, and I told you on

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Speaker 1: the phone earlier, there's no facts in it. UM. That's

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Speaker 1: very devoid of facts. When I when I when I

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Speaker 1: saw that they put out a fact sheet, I was

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Speaker 1: excited to see, like a bullet pointed list of like

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Speaker 1: how many coyotes and predators die and while ife killing contests,

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Speaker 1: how prevalent is it and state by state basis you know,

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Speaker 1: why is it relevant here and not here? How is it?

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Speaker 1: Uh misuse or as they say, a symptom of misguided

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Speaker 1: wildlife governance. That's what they say and this fact sheet, UM,

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Speaker 1: and we talked to in something I think, folks, when

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Speaker 1: we get to Dr James Dantillo here in a minute,

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Speaker 1: something that people should realize is that they're they're putting

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Speaker 1: together um, ethics, morality, and the things that you know

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Speaker 1: in the animal welfare and animal rights philosophies. They're putting

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Speaker 1: that together in a gumbo with wildlife management. They're trying

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Speaker 1: to mix all that ship together. UM. And that's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty clear. And each one of those is subjective, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's individual and everything else. And so it creates a

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Speaker 1: compelling argument. You know, it's a confusing one that isn't

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Speaker 1: backed up by science or fact. So when you guys

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Speaker 1: go into you know, if you're arguing a case against

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Speaker 1: H S U S Or Project Coyote, and they bring

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Speaker 1: up this and I'll read you some of this, just

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Speaker 1: some of the bullet point you know, subheaders they have

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Speaker 1: in this document. It starts off with cruel and unsporting,

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Speaker 1: it gets it gets into kind of, like I said,

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Speaker 1: the sociological factors UM and the motivations of particular hunters.

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Speaker 1: Cruel and unsporting. It's a blood sport like dog fighting.

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Speaker 1: It fuel it myth. It myths fuels the killing, and

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Speaker 1: then it starts to then and then it saddles right

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Speaker 1: into um contrary to modern based wildlife management principles, a

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Speaker 1: symptom of misguided wildlfe governance, as I mentioned, destructive to

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Speaker 1: healthy ecosystems, a violation of the public trust doctrine. UM.

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Speaker 1: And it goes on and on and then it gets

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Speaker 1: to like this is now we need to outlaw these things.

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Speaker 1: And that's essentially where we've landed here. And at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, UM, as I said, we should

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Speaker 1: decouple this this management argument from this, you know, a

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Speaker 1: blood sport like dog fighting argument. If we can do that,

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Speaker 1: then we it suss this out. Do you guys, are

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Speaker 1: you able to have the wildlife management debate with them

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Speaker 1: when these things come up? And how do you have it?

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Speaker 1: Like what do you say to them? Uh? It's usually

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Speaker 1: not directly with them. It's in the legislative process. And

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Speaker 1: you know, we talked to the legislators and it's basically like,

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Speaker 1: what what's the point here? Like we suss out all

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Speaker 1: the emotional stuff and be like, what is the point what? What?

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Speaker 1: What are you against here? Okay, you're against killing and

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Speaker 1: a private incentive versus a public incentive, because I mean

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Speaker 1: there's states that have bounties. South Carolina has a tag

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Speaker 1: coyotes out there for a thousand bucks. So like, what

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Speaker 1: do you actually against here, And let's talk about writing

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Speaker 1: this bill or changing it or whatever. But at the

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Speaker 1: end of the day, they're they're just using it to

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Speaker 1: ban what. They don't care about wildlife management. They don't

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Speaker 1: care about any of it. So they're just trying to

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Speaker 1: ban a piece of it. And the language they use

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Speaker 1: in these bills is wide open. It captures, feel trial evantic,

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Speaker 1: captures squirrel hunts. It has in there for entertainment purposes.

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Speaker 1: So if you're having fun, what does that even mean?

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Speaker 1: Under that guy's anything would be a contest. Yep. So,

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Speaker 1: and when we talked about we talked about that with

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Speaker 1: the with Dr Chantillo in a minute, about the gamelike

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Speaker 1: quality of hunting and kind of the value systems and

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Speaker 1: the reward systems that are in there. You break that down,

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Speaker 1: you can ban ban the entire activity based on that

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Speaker 1: line of thinking. Far enough. Yeah, so here's one thing

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Speaker 1: that here's one thing they say wildlife killing contests are

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Speaker 1: a violation of the public trust. Doctor and a foundational

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Speaker 1: judicial principle mandating that governments hold natural assets, including wildlife

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Speaker 1: and trust for the general public and future generations. Allowing

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Speaker 1: a minority of the population to kill animals and on

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Speaker 1: mass uh contributes the rights of the majority of Americans

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Speaker 1: who value the intrinsic, ecological, aesthetic value of native carnivores

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Speaker 1: and damaging the reputation of state wildlife management age these

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Speaker 1: and sportsmen alike. So yeah, I mean the basis there

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Speaker 1: is a minority of Americans. So using that logic, anything

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Speaker 1: we do is a violation. So if you buy into

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Speaker 1: that thinking anything we do is a violation of that

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Speaker 1: which isn't true, you can flip it around and say, well,

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Speaker 1: a minority of you want it band. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: just it's just crap. Oh boy. Um. Yeah. And like

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Speaker 1: I said, I wanted to take it with Dr Chantiller.

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Speaker 1: We wanted to take it from an ethical and moral

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Speaker 1: standpoint because I said, these two things are kind of

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Speaker 1: mashed together in the way that this is voiced. And again,

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Speaker 1: this trailer that's been floating around for this documentary, um

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Speaker 1: is really easy to take in if you if you

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Speaker 1: you know, just on a service level, disagree with this activity. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of I'll tell you this, Brian, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of hunters quoted and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: from UH fish and Wildlife departments quoted in this document

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Speaker 1: as against this. Do you run into this as you

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Speaker 1: go through this, like they're using hunters against themselves and

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Speaker 1: in this particular movement against the Kyarti killing contests. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean we see it a lot. I mean even

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Speaker 1: another balloting issues and stuff. They'll put up somebody who

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Speaker 1: is a guide. You know, they did it in Maine

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Speaker 1: trying to ban bear hunting. Well the guy was a

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Speaker 1: river guide. But once it's out there in the public,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. Um. But yes, they'll find hunters that

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Speaker 1: disagree with with a certain tactic. I mean it could

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Speaker 1: be trapping and a bird dog guy. So they split

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Speaker 1: us that way, um, you know. And then on the

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Speaker 1: flip side, we can be our own worst enemies. Some

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Speaker 1: of this footage is ridiculous and we shoot ourselves in

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Speaker 1: the foot, you know, So it's like, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is interesting in that way. We talked

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Speaker 1: about that with Dr Santillo about how how do we

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Speaker 1: suss out the motivation here? And how do we try

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Speaker 1: to at least avoid being the strong man, because any

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Speaker 1: hunter that puts out any kind of information on social

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Speaker 1: media wherever you have the ability to be made a

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Speaker 1: strong man by these groups. Yeah, that that's exactly that's

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Speaker 1: what they're looking for. But again, like, how do we

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Speaker 1: react to that. Do we never talk about these issues,

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Speaker 1: which has been suggested in the past kind of part

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Speaker 1: of part of the hunting dogma that I grew up with,

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Speaker 1: or do we just continue to talk about and and

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Speaker 1: have these very um complex conversations out in public and

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Speaker 1: just say, hey man, we're willing to talk about this,

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Speaker 1: we want to talk about this, but what we're not

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Speaker 1: willing to do is is um be made to account

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Speaker 1: by your hyperbole and you know, your bullshit activism here. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, you look at

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Speaker 1: what's the end result. Motives don't matter, and individual motives,

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Speaker 1: whether the so called quote unquote trophy hunter who wants

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Speaker 1: something for the wall or the meat hunter as as

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Speaker 1: they're often called, and the gamut in between, doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: If you're enjoying it for fun, family meet, whatever, doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: What's the end result, and that is proliferation of wildlife

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Speaker 1: and wild places. The end result is what matters individual

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Speaker 1: motives don't. Yeah, And that's that's where we get into.

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Speaker 1: That's where this is, this conversation gets into. And we

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Speaker 1: talked about this with but James as well, Uh, crossbows,

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Speaker 1: arguing about crossbows, arguing about trapping, arguing about hound hunting,

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Speaker 1: argue about bait, arguing about all these things. Um, he

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Speaker 1: takes a very um liberty or libertarian based approach to this,

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Speaker 1: and and boy after talking to him, Um, I couldn't

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Speaker 1: agree anymore then possible. I just I think once you

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Speaker 1: hear that this in a minute from someone who obviously

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Speaker 1: he doesn't do what you do, Brian, he's not in

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Speaker 1: this every day. He thinks about it from I would say,

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Speaker 1: like the ethical and moral dilemma of all outdoorsmen, of

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Speaker 1: all people that go outside. And that's where he's looking

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Speaker 1: at it. That's the lens in which he've used this from.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's interesting, nonetheless, but where we get to that,

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Speaker 1: we got one thing we gotta cover. I know everybody

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Speaker 1: out there that listen to this podcast is waiting for this,

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Speaker 1: and you'll be able to help me because you, Brian,

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Speaker 1: you work at a conservation organization, so you'll be able

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Speaker 1: to help me with this. Let me just explain to

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Speaker 1: you what happened and see if I can get some

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Speaker 1: of your advice. Oh, a while back, we made we

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Speaker 1: asked our listeners, like what should we call our group? Right,

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Speaker 1: everybody gets like everybody's like Hunter nation. Everybody has like

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Speaker 1: a thing for their group of people. Right. I made

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Speaker 1: a joke that will call ourselves a cult. It's hilarious

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Speaker 1: if we were the THHD cult. Well, um, that caught

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Speaker 1: on and people people now are using that terminology. I

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Speaker 1: use it all the time. I enjoy it. I enjoy

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Speaker 1: the irony of it. What happened was people started to

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Speaker 1: take that into account. We made a joke next about

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Speaker 1: having membership cards for the cult. People started acting on that,

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Speaker 1: requesting membership cards, giving themselves their own member I D

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Speaker 1: numbers within the cult. And then what happened was I

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Speaker 1: had made a joke that we had a brand new

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Speaker 1: hunter that was looking for a mentor in the Blue

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Speaker 1: Ridge Mountains of Virginia, North Carolina. We we put it

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Speaker 1: out there to our audience. Seventeen or twenty people rode

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Speaker 1: in to to to offer help to that hunter. I

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Speaker 1: made a joke. Okay, this is like our first regional

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Speaker 1: chapter of the Cult. Next. What happened next was people

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Speaker 1: started making Facebook pages uh with regional and state chapters

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Cult that we've started here, and so

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Speaker 1: the and then last episode I called for everybody, if

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Speaker 1: you want to be a leader in this fictional podcast

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Speaker 1: cult that we've got, going reach out to me and

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll figure it out. Well, hundreds of people reached out,

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Speaker 1: and now let me pull I gotta spreadsheet. Let me

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Speaker 1: pull it up so I get an accurate number. But

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Speaker 1: now we have roughly thirty four state chapters of this

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Speaker 1: podcast um and and three regional chapters that cover forty

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Speaker 1: three total states. So we basically got the whole the

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Speaker 1: whole country covered with regional chapters. And what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do is create Facebook pages for each one of those

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Speaker 1: regional chapters. We've declared leaders for each one of those chapters,

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Speaker 1: and maybe the next episode we'll let you guys know

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Speaker 1: how you can find those things. But now I'm kind

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Speaker 1: of I've backed myself into a corner where now I

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Speaker 1: have like this uh non accredited non three. I got

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Speaker 1: my own a conservation organization here, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to do with it. I don't know what to

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Speaker 1: do with it. So as a as we pulled you

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Speaker 1: out of the bullpen because Phil got sick. But I mean,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you can really help us out here.

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Speaker 1: What the hell do I do? Am I in trouble

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Speaker 1: legally in any way? I'm not a lawyer. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to drink beer and I can make stuff up. So

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Speaker 1: me too. Me to take my advice for what it's

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Speaker 1: worth and what you're paying for it. Uh, I don't

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Speaker 1: think you're in trouble. Okay, thanks, But then boy, you

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Speaker 1: can step in stuff, but you just you just step

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Speaker 1: from one thing to the next, don't you. That's how

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Speaker 1: I roll. That's how I roll. My whole life is

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Speaker 1: one big just mass I've created. But now we have

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Speaker 1: these very passionate people, and we are going to create

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Speaker 1: these groups, state by state groups, and really the basis

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Speaker 1: of these groups are are getting mentors from Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is what we're doing, this is how, this is how

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Speaker 1: this started, this is what we're gonna do. So in

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Speaker 1: my mind it's a really good thing. But I also

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Speaker 1: like to just be I just like to work this

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Speaker 1: out in public because I don't have no idea what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing a little bit scared and um, a little

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Speaker 1: bit excited, which is the state I like to be

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Speaker 1: in all the time. You and I have partied. You know,

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Speaker 1: what's up party in Vegas? Yeah, you disappeared. I turned around,

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Speaker 1: you were gone. You're on the phone, and then you

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Speaker 1: were gone. I was like, where'd you go? A band

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Speaker 1: they call that the Irish Goodbye. Yeah, this isn't even

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Speaker 1: an Irish goodbye. We're in a hotel room. Like, turned around,

375
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Speaker 1: you were gone. You're on the phone with your brother

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Speaker 1: or something. Yeah, yea, and goodbye be called the Irish Goodbye.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, do you have any how do we do this?

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Speaker 1: We have the chapters, we have the leaders, but all

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Speaker 1: these people willing and I don't know what to do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like it. Yeah, probably some type of mentor show.

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Speaker 1: And every chapter has to do something wise, yes, bear turkey, dear,

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Speaker 1: well whatever the big ones are in your state requirement.

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Speaker 1: That's alright, alright, the vice president, you're now the vice

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Speaker 1: president of communications for the Cult chapter leadership. Um, let

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Speaker 1: me just say this, this is this really upset me

386
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Speaker 1: in a way that I never thought it would. I

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Speaker 1: we have, like I said, most states covered. I can

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Speaker 1: give you the full list, but I mean most states covered.

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Speaker 1: We even have three providences, three provinces in Canada, a

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Speaker 1: military chapter, and uh, you know we're getting around here.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. The three places that I've lived

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Speaker 1: I don't I did live in Illinois, but I don't

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Speaker 1: count that, So we strike that from the record. I

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Speaker 1: never lived in Illinois. The three places that I've lived

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Speaker 1: that I'm proud of, Um, no offense. Illinois, You're fine. Texas, Maryland,

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Speaker 1: and Montana do not have leaders that have raised their

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Speaker 1: hand up that want to start a chapter, so I

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Speaker 1: just won't put that out there. Um, we're missing. The

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Speaker 1: states we're missing right now are are Montana, Idah, Hawayoming, Hawaii, Alaska, Maryland,

400
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Speaker 1: and both the Dakotas, and also the District of Columbia

401
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: about you know, I don't think that's gonna count. No,

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Speaker 1: And I don't think we've seen West Virginia either. So

403
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Speaker 1: if you're out there listening right now, and you're a

404
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Speaker 1: leader and you want to be a part of this

405
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 1: weird thing we're starting, that's what we need. And then

406
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Speaker 1: when you fill out the full the full country, and

407
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 1: somebody needs to you know, ruin the the O'Brien effects

408
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 1: of those three states in particular. Yeah, I mean, now

409
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Speaker 1: they just step up and level set the damage that

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Speaker 1: I've done by moving to these places. You don't know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're kind of working for hunting and you're undermining

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Speaker 1: it up here a little bit. It's a double it's

413
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Speaker 1: a dull stord. We had a guy right and we

414
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Speaker 1: had a guy right in about how a meat eater

415
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Speaker 1: particularly was like ruining hunting, and it was this very

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Speaker 1: logical I mean, I was very proud of him for saying,

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Speaker 1: it's a very logical step by step argument as to

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Speaker 1: how we were ruining hunting. Sorry, like you're making it popular,

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Speaker 1: screw you. And then it went from there. It was

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Speaker 1: very good. Um, so I'm always I'm always trying to

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Speaker 1: be aware of that. I was a little bit worried

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Speaker 1: about that, and uh, I understand, I get it. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: if you're out there and and those states and you

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Speaker 1: want to be a part of of whatever it is

425
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: we're starting here, you're welcome and we need you hand

426
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: up be a leader, and um, hopefully when this is

427
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,120
Speaker 1: done by the end of this fall, we'll have every

428
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 1: state covered and they'll be people out there hunting together

429
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,439
Speaker 1: that never would have known each other prior, and um,

430
00:23:54,520 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: we'll have done something good man. And yeah, that's what

431
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: we're trying to do. And as I said last episode,

432
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: it's the most accidental hunting movement of all time. And uh,

433
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,440
Speaker 1: the and the annals of history, we'll all look back

434
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: at this and laugh at this. This really probably changed

435
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 1: the fabric of our community in some way. Uh, no pressure, guys,

436
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 1: no pressure. This is the first year hearing of this.

437
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: Does this sound insane to you or just seems like

438
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: a logical thing to have happened in your in somebody's life. Oh,

439
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:30,440
Speaker 1: it seems knowing you, well, it seems insane. But knowing you,

440
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: it fits the m O and the trajectory of it all. Yeah. No,

441
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, like, like yesterday was Sunday, right

442
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 1: like I was sitting around, I put the kids to bed,

443
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: I was sitting around building out spreadsheets for the podcast.

444
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: I was doing this last week to building out spreadsheets

445
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: for the podcast Cult that I've started. And I and

446
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: I'm self aware, I knew that was weird. That's probably

447
00:24:53,080 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: your wiki page, Yeah, wiki page cult leader leader started. Yeah,

448
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think Facebook or Instagram likes the

449
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: word cult uh at all, so maybe they might ban us,

450
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 1: which would even fuel the movement further, I feel. And

451
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: then on these animal rights fact sheets, it's gonna be

452
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 1: colts and you have animal sacrifice going on. Oh wow,

453
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: in legal trouble. I see. I'm trying to I'm trying

454
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: to think all the future paths that might lead me

455
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,919
Speaker 1: into trouble leader. But I will say, let me call

456
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: out some people that volunteered. I sent out an email

457
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: to all our leaders. So if you didn't get an email, uh,

458
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: he didn't get chosen, I guess, but you're very welcome.

459
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: We will communicate how you can find these pages. But

460
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 1: let me just uh read a few people that we

461
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: know that are gonna be that a long time listens

462
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: to program. They're always writing in. Eric Hall, Luke Reeves,

463
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: Ryan Subpoena, Derek Storical, Greg Moon, Ben Peterson, B. J. Trickler, Kelsey, Guy,

464
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: Keith Sprague, Mike Morris, Patrick Ray, Mike Dil Mike Peterson,

465
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: John Selfew, Chris Stocker, Ryan Waters, Dave Campbell, Dan Cohler,

466
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: Michael Canals. How you pronounced your damn name? Sean Managed

467
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: Coucci in New Mexico, Mike Earnst, all these people, there's

468
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: just so many, so many to name A b Rich,

469
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: Aaron Shaw, Matt Barrick, Jacob Davis, Martin Resinick, Jordan Riggsby

470
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Nurry Hong, Brian how Jim Fleischner, Jared Adams, there's more.

471
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: But but thanks to all you guys for stepping up,

472
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: putting your hand out saying you'll do this even though

473
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: you don't know really what it is that you're doing.

474
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: So we appreciate it and we're gonna keep on rolling.

475
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: Brian and again as vice president of communications, UH for

476
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: our regional chapter. Regional chapter called, thank you for volunteering

477
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: for that. I appreciate that. Yeah, you're very welcome. I'm

478
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: gonna get the lawyer up on speed dial now. Yeah, yeah,

479
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm uh. All these people I just named appreciate you're

480
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: you're helping them with any PR trouble. I come from

481
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: this all right, Well, I think we've done our jobs again.

482
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for for pinch hitting for old Philly engineer. Man.

483
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: Thank you. We're gonna keep talking about these these very

484
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: interesting we're on a role man. We started with California Bears.

485
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 1: We went last week into the Wisconsin wolf situation, and

486
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: then we have steered the ship right into the iceberg

487
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: that is wildlife killing contests, uh this episode. So we're

488
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: gonna keep on keeping on where that's concerned. And I

489
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: think trapping all has to be next, right, Trapping the

490
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: thing we talked about in this Yeah, trapping, trapping on

491
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: public lands, it's big right now. They're they're pushing that

492
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: hand in hand with the contest stuff. Yeah, that's I

493
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: think that's the next thing we're gonna touch on. And

494
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: this one, I like I said, this one just came

495
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: to to my to my desk, as it were, from

496
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: people that aren't in the hunting community that are passing

497
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: around a lot of propaganda and things that that really

498
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: uh man, they don't paint us in a great light,

499
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: and they're using hunters to do it. People that are

500
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: willing to talk about these pursuits, are willing to be

501
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: filmed for it and and really believe in what they're doing. Yeah,

502
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: and that and the tough thing with that is you

503
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: never know what context is taken in. You know, the editing.

504
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: You know, you've worked in TV and stuff, and you

505
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: can make anything, any sound bite sound like whatever you

506
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: want it to. Yeah, and it often happens in this way.

507
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: You know, these these folks aren't coming into this with

508
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: pristine motives. They just aren't. There's a lot of confirmation biased,

509
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: there's a lot of culture hacking going on, UM and

510
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: these things. So it's good and like I said, I

511
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to you about this, but also just

512
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: just bring in someone from across the country who's sitting

513
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: in Cornell University right now, UM, teaching people about ethics

514
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: and morality and teaching people about wildlife sciences and thinking

515
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: about this and so now here is our friend, Jim

516
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: tant Tiller. Jim, how are you, sir? I'm good. I'm good.

517
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: Almost springtime here. Yeah, how are things? We were just

518
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 1: talking before we hit record about how things are looking

519
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: at Cornell. Everybody's hot on, you know, returning to normalcy

520
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: at this point, I think, so, what's happening over your neck?

521
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: And it was last time we talked, we were in

522
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: full lockdown? I think right right, No, I've been teaching

523
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: in person since February and h five days a week,

524
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: so it's I'm back. I'm back on campus in my

525
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: office right now. UM. Again, the challenges have been trying

526
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: to uh zoom it at the same time. So you're

527
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: teaching a lot of students and you're teaching a pull

528
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: at home. Yeah, but so far it's it's fun. Well,

529
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: I'm glad you guys are still doing it one way

530
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: or the other. And and of course I said last

531
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: time we talked, we were full lockdown mode. Thing. A

532
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: lot of a lot has changed. Um, do you know't

533
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: hunting this fall? You got at all? Oh? Yeah, oh yeah,

534
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: you know. I put my teaching off in the fall.

535
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: So I took a full month in Michigan and hunted

536
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: my German short hair pointers and then hunted deer in November.

537
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was was pretty good, pretty good hunting season. Actually,

538
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: my daughter shot her first year. Awesome. That was that

539
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: was very exciting. She named him Bucky, so that was

540
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: kind of fun. How old your daughter? There you go,

541
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: there you go. We've we've deemed this the year the

542
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: new hunter on this program. We've got a lot of

543
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: we have a lot of people that are are joining

544
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: our community. It was her first time hunting and she

545
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 1: did a great job. She you know, she really did

546
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: so that's awesome. That's awesome. Well, we just had Pat

547
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: Durkin on who I know, you know, well last week

548
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: talking about the wolf situation over there, and it was

549
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: a trane wreck in its own right. Yeah, we should

550
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: probably cover that a little bit just based on I know,

551
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: you know that part of the world. Well, um, what

552
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: what was your perspective on what happened? And for anybody

553
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: that didn't listen, go back and listen to the last

554
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: week's episode with Pat Durkins. I don't know the details

555
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: all that much. I understand there was some purecratic confusion

556
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: from the Wisconsin di and our in terms of the

557
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, the allocation of the quote and stuff, and

558
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: that Native corporations claimed something like eighty four of the

559
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: whatever it was two hundred, and it was unclear to

560
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: me whether they actually killed eighty four or if they

561
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: simply claimed that eighty four and that didn't they didn't

562
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: kill Yeah, they didn't kill any right, so then that

563
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: that yeah, they still ever shot the harvest total even

564
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: with the unused Yeah. Yeah, so it was that we

565
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: talked about it. It was a complex situation that you know,

566
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: I had a lot of political, uh influences on a

567
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: lot of levels, you know, and a lot of societal

568
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: influences as as you well know, it comes in every

569
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 1: time we're hunting. Seems to be every time we're hunting

570
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: predators these days. So it's interesting if you you know,

571
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: as a somebody who thinks about ethics a lot and

572
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: that have have worked with O. Ryan, the Hunter's Institute

573
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: on on things like this, do you guys talk much

574
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: about the presentation of wolf funds like this? And you know,

575
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 1: how we communicate them, how we or why they or

576
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: not we we feel like they're they're supported by the

577
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: Science and Wildlife BED. I think it's hard to bring

578
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,719
Speaker 1: back anything that's been suspended. So you know, you've got

579
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 1: the wolves that have been on the endangered and Threatened

580
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: species list state and federal level, and then the population

581
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: hits a certain peak and you want to bring hunting back.

582
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: That's a hard a hard step for the non hunting

583
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: public too to understand first and then accept. And yet

584
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 1: you know from where I hunt, you know, a bird hunt,

585
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: the Upper Peninsula, Michigan. I hunted Wisconsin for that matter

586
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: last year. Um I was in places where you know,

587
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: they're five, six, seven wolves in a pack walking down

588
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: my trail and a daily you know, there's a fresh

589
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: sky right there. Um, that's that keeps you on your toes. Yeah.

590
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: Same here. I've I've one of my favorite little elk

591
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: countey holes here close to my house. We've had I

592
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: have truid cameras. Listeners the show will know I've talked

593
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: a lot about I had trail camera videos of wolves

594
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: attacking cattle. I had them. You know, I've heard them,

595
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: I've seen their tracks, I've seen their scat I've seen there,

596
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: I've seen their evidence of where they've been on gut

597
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: piles of other hunters killed elk within hours of those

598
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: elk being killed. Um, I had a buddy he was

599
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: packing out his bull and uh had wolves following him

600
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: as he was packing as well. So I think you

601
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: and I are both well aware of kind of what

602
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: it's like hunting and and and country that has wolves,

603
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: and and it provides an extra challenge, actually an extra

604
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: sensory challenge, but also it's an extra challenge understanding that

605
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: that they're on that landscape. So I would I would

606
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: admit to being personally conflicted about about wolf hunting. It's

607
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: not something that I think I would do. But like

608
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: on a from a model of conservation standpoint, from a

609
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: from an understanding how the E s A should work,

610
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: and then how we should transfer and as you said,

611
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: pick hunting back up and where it had been halted.

612
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: I do understand that support that. I think that's the

613
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: right thing to do. But again I understand where people

614
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: are coming from if if they're just a little bit

615
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: hesitant about it. Yeah, this is and this will be

616
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: related to the kyote topic as well. I mean with

617
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: any carnivore, there's a pragmatic argument alone, independent of moral

618
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: questions of shooting wolves, kyotes, bears, whatever, um, that the

619
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: hunting makes the rest of the animals where you know,

620
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: warrier than they would be wary of the human presence,

621
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: so that you're not having coyotes walking to people's backyards

622
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: and you know, eating chihuahua's or you know, staring at

623
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: a kid and a baby stroller sort of thing. Um.

624
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: And I think with wolves that's even that much more important. Uh.

625
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 1: You know some of those towns on the Upper Peninsula,

626
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: you know, you've got people who are fencing their backyards

627
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 1: now because of wolves, and you know that, you know,

628
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: I think that calls for some sort of management attention. Yep. Well,

629
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: you know we're here and wolves aren't definitely aren't off

630
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: the table in this the topic that we're talking about here,

631
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 1: but mostly it's coyotes that are that are thrust into

632
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: the fore for killing contests. And you know, we've already

633
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 1: kind of covered in earlier in this episode a little

634
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: bit about what killing contests are and how they've come

635
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: to be what I think of as as the straw

636
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: man for and I hunting groups to point to for

637
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: sport hunting or trophy hunting, or however you want to

638
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: describe it. But there is, and I sent you a

639
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: link to a project couty dot org film and then

640
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: also movement. It carries the hashtag hashtags stop to Kill,

641
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: and a lot of the folks outside of the hunting

642
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: industry that that I know well have posted about this recently,

643
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 1: and I haven't seen much of it within the hunting industry,

644
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: but there there is. What they say on their website,

645
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: project co funded the National Coalition to End Wildlife Killing

646
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: Contest comprise of more than fifty national and state wildlife

647
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: conservation organizations working together to bring an end to the

648
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: cruel and senseless killing contests nationwide. And so it's it's,

649
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, a contest doesn't make it any more or

650
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: less cruel than if you and I just come out

651
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: and sew to kyote. So that doesn't make any sense

652
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: at all. I mean, they don't care for the optics

653
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: of a killing contest. That's understandable. But if you're gonna

654
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: have state and wildlife organizations sign on to this thing

655
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: and say, well, we're going to ban something because we

656
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: don't like the optics, well guess what. The optics of

657
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:43,839
Speaker 1: hunting in general are equally bad. So you know, I'm

658
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: not a slippery slope theorist or you know, you know,

659
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,960
Speaker 1: opening up the Pandora's box. On the other hand, there is,

660
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: from a just a narrowly technical perspective on the killing

661
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: of an animal in the context of the contest, that

662
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: killing is equal to a killing outside of a contest setting. Now,

663
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: what really bugs people are the human questions. You know,

664
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: they don't like what they assume to be character flaws

665
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: on the part of contest killers whose motivation they question.

666
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: You know, so you're killing for thrills, or you're killing

667
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: for prize money, or you're killing because your ego needs stroking,

668
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: or you know. So there's a lot of stuff that

669
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: sort of enters unfairly and fuels the you know, if

670
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: it's a movement, I don't know that it's a movement,

671
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 1: but they follow it a movement, I'll grant them. I'll

672
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,719
Speaker 1: grant them that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean hyperbole is the same.

673
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 1: Marketing and hyperbole always mixed. Um. I do. I do

674
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: think you're right here. And I think one of the

675
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: as we kind of approached the discussion, one of the

676
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: things that happens is wildlife management gets lumped in with

677
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,400
Speaker 1: things like and they do this in their website, responsibility,

678
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: humane practices, ethics, morality, you know, all these things that

679
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: I know you think a lot about get mashed together

680
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,760
Speaker 1: with wildlife management and they get like mixed around into gumbo.

681
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: And I think what they're doing, very intentionally is kind

682
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: of blurring the lines between the motivation for for somebody

683
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: to kill a coyote and the management side. And I

684
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 1: think when you blur those lines, it's easier to say no, no, no,

685
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: they're awful people. They're not managing anything. Um. And I

686
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: think that's that's that's really what I wanted to try

687
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: to unpack with you, how we can separate those two

688
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: things and and talk about, Yes, is somebody's motivation maybe skewed.

689
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,839
Speaker 1: Let's let's discuss and see if we can get somewhere. Um,

690
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 1: but how we you know, I've been doing this sort

691
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: of a lot like decouple this humane, ethical, moral responsibility

692
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: with our responsibility to manage these and more practical responsibility

693
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: to manage these animals. Have you thought about it that way? Yeah,

694
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 1: there's practical misunderstandings of what these contests do, right, I mean,

695
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: so the California group, Oh, we hate contests, and there

696
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: conjuring up visions of hundreds of kyles being slaughtered in

697
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: a weekend coyote killed. The reality is some of these

698
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 1: contests you're having novice coyote hunters sign up for something.

699
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: They said, Oh, that sounds like it'll be fun. At

700
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: the end of the day, we'll have a hot dog

701
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: in the clubhouse and see what happens. And many of

702
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: these contests result in a very low sort of kill count. Um,

703
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if you know that. I'm gonna go

704
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 1: in a really different director with this. The folk singer

705
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 1: Tom Rush. Tom Rush is a New England folks singer

706
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: who retired to Jackson Hall, Wyoming, and he put out

707
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: an album uh called trolling for owls. I think back

708
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: in two thousand six and he comments about how different

709
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: Wyoming is from New Hampshire. And one of his examples

710
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: of how different Wyoming is is they have these coyote

711
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: contests and he has this whole long lined up you know,

712
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 1: spoken word where he's talking about this contest and you know,

713
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: all these guys come from all over the place, and

714
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: at the end of the weekend they killed two kayos.

715
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 1: And then he writes a song about kayo contests and

716
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 1: you'll have to listen to that later. Maybe you can

717
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: use it in the program. You know. The thing is

718
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: is these things, don't you know, Kyle hunting is hard.

719
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: So if you're worried about body count, I'd be more

720
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: concerned about you know, the two guys in rural Pennsylvania

721
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 1: who go out on a near daily basis and not

722
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: the same field, and they have the set up down

723
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: path because they've been doing it for twenty years and

724
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,719
Speaker 1: they're efficient at kyote killing and they're good at it,

725
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: and they're doing it propels and all there, and and

726
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 1: recreation as well. Um, you know, they're probably going to

727
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: be more successful in terms of body count than opportunistic

728
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: hunters who just sign up on a lark for a

729
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: contest because it sounds like fun and they don't care

730
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 1: whether they kill anything or not. So I I would

731
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: sort of challenge groups like this California group to, you know,

732
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: show me some numbers. I don't think this is a

733
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: big problem, even if I were to grant your premises,

734
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's an issue. Yeah, they say

735
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: that they have a quote here that says, um, most

736
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: are Americans. I'm sorry, I laugh. It's like it's just

737
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: so very overstated. It's just so very overstated. I get it,

738
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: this is something to talk about in debate. That's fine.

739
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: I'm I'm with you, But this is the hyperbole is

740
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 1: off the chains with some of this stuff. Is this crazy?

741
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: Most Americans are shocked to learn that thousands of animals

742
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: die every year and wildlife killing contests barbaric events in

743
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: which participants win prizes for killing the greatest number or

744
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: the largest of any given wildlife species. Bobcats. You know.

745
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 1: So this is this is kind of how they presented.

746
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: I don't see in here, and I'm not saying that

747
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: they don't have it, because they have quite a lot

748
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 1: of documentation on on it. They don't have any any

749
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: numbers here as to you know, they say thousands, which

750
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: I think is a very easy thing to say. Um.

751
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: They also say things it's as a blood sport like

752
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: dog fighting. Wildlife killing contests are no different than dog

753
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: fighting and cock fighting, which have been outlawed nationwide. Uhum.

754
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: In many contests, young children are encouraged to participate in

755
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: hunting equipment and high powered arrivals, including air fifteens are

756
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 1: awarded as raffle prizes. This is um man. I wish

757
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 1: they would just take a pragmatic approach, but I guess

758
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: that would be uh too hopeful, you know, and even

759
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I can you can take them one by one.

760
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, where I live, we have squirrel

761
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: derby's in the winter, typically once duck seasons over, goose

762
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: seasons over in January and people have been sitting around

763
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: inside for a month. You know, you'll have a squirrel derby,

764
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: let's say in February, when it's still legal hunt squirrels.

765
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: And a sporting sportsmen's club or you know, rod gun

766
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: club sponsor one of these things, and it's simply an

767
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: excuse to get people out on a weekend. Tromp around

768
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,800
Speaker 1: in the snow, kill some squirrels, come back to the

769
00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: clubhouse way the squirrels about some certificates and hopefully the

770
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: kids win them all and then cook the squirrels off

771
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. And um, you know, yes,

772
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: children are using rifles. Yes there are prizes. Um, yes

773
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: there's a body count. But you know, we've talked about

774
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: this before in some of the other podcasts we've done together.

775
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: And you know, I try to focus people's attention to

776
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: the ethical issue of the difference between offense, what offends us,

777
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 1: and harm. And I think here's a clear case where

778
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: these the idea of a killing contest offends people. But

779
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: it's very difficult to say there's any harm involved to

780
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: anybody on the outside looking in. You know, if you

781
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: grant the legitimacy of hunting to start with, so you know,

782
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 1: killing a squirrel for foods okay, killing a kyle for

783
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: a pelt, it's okay. I don't think adding the additional

784
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: layer of it being a contest, that doesn't that doesn't

785
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 1: add any harm. Yeah, And if you would look at this,

786
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: if you would look at this on all levels, I mean,

787
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: I know, Wyoming for sure, still has bounties on coyotes

788
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: in some counties and for a while hat bounties on

789
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: kayote statewide. Right, So they're giving people twenty bucks, They're

790
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: giving the people the incentive, financial incentive to do this

791
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: for lots of reasons. So I guess, as you said,

792
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: you know what would be your as we as we

793
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: break this down, right, you're you're a hunter percent right

794
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: in my opinion at least, that people are offended by

795
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: what this is, and so then they've they've then reason

796
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,959
Speaker 1: themselves into why it's wrong. And it's pretty it's pretty

797
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: clear here the hyperbolic language backs it up. Um. Let's

798
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: so let's let's leave the wildlife management side of it

799
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 1: off for a minute. When when when you hear um,

800
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 1: I'll let me just read you a quote that Cody

801
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: Project co Org has in one of their little handouts

802
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: here from Michael Finley. He's the chair of the Oregon

803
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: Fish and Wildlife Commission. He says, as a hunter myself,

804
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: I am proud of the key role the hunting community

805
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,919
Speaker 1: plays and conserving our state's wildlife. These killing contests, however,

806
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: are not responsible hunting. They glorify killing for its own

807
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: sake and cast the entire hunting community in a bad light.

808
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 1: What do you think about that comment? Yeah, that's fine.

809
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: That's just hunters pointing their fingers at other hunters and saying,

810
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: I don't like the way you hunt my way or

811
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: the highway, and to me, that lack of toleration for

812
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: things that you disapprove of. I mean, that's just fundamentally

813
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: un American. I mean, I hate to be as corny

814
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: as that, but I really do believe that. And we're

815
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: in this sort of period of time now where everything

816
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: is canceled culture and we're gonna censor people and we're

817
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: gonna ban things that we disapprove of. And you know,

818
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: this is what animal welfare and animal rights groups have

819
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: been trying to do for decades. They're trying to divide

820
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 1: and conquer, and so here they have found an issue

821
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: where they can get hunters pointing their fingers and other hunters.

822
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: So they're they're they're finding hunters who are willing to

823
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: do their dirty work for them. And it's a it's

824
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: a stroke of genius. Uh, that's a to uh, you know,

825
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: it's a real stroke of business for the for the

826
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: you know, the anti hunting groups. It's what hs US

827
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: has done forever, um, you know, with the various ballot

828
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,320
Speaker 1: referendum that they've done to you know, ban you know,

829
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: bear baiting and other practices that they don't like, you know,

830
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: hunting mountain lines with towns and whatnot. So this is

831
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: yet another variation of that of that trend. Yeah, we'll

832
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: get to the state kind of the state wildlife management.

833
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: There's some other quotes. As I'm reading and they're talking

834
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,319
Speaker 1: to you, I'm just I just I'm chuckling. I don't

835
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 1: want to make it that I think this is a

836
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: very serious debate that we should be having here. But

837
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 1: some of the way that it's a serious if people

838
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: take it serious, I'm glad you're in the position that

839
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: you're in, if I'm being honest, because it just there's it.

840
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: I think there is a lot of virtue signaling and

841
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: that goes on to things like this for both on

842
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: the hunting side and the and the anti hunting side,

843
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: where people are pounding their chests on on both issues.

844
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: Just from if we're looking at this, does this this

845
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: this goes does this fall for in the grounds of

846
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 1: ethics for you or as we almost always talk about

847
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: when you're on is it like personal preference of the

848
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: style of which you want to hunt. I think mostly

849
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,720
Speaker 1: personal preference. On the other hand, we can imagine somebody

850
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: a bad character who joins up one of these contests

851
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: and for bad motivation and for bad reasons, takes part

852
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: in the contest. But that's the same in any other

853
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: realm of human behavior. I mean, we have people, you know,

854
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: you go driving on the highway. Most people respect the

855
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: law and the speed limit, and they don't. They're not crazy,

856
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: they're not drunk when they're driving. And yet we know

857
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 1: there are people who drive drunk under the influence, they

858
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: drive while they're texting, they speed their dangerous drivers. We

859
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: don't condemn all of driving because of the rare exceptions

860
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: to the rule of people who are unsafe. And I

861
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: think with hunting or worth killing contest, just because you

862
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: can figure, you know, find somebody who he's doing it

863
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: for the wrong reasons, or who cheats or you know,

864
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 1: using it to sort of for self aggrandizement or what

865
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: have you, that to me is not reason to condemn

866
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: the whole thing. Um the squirrel derbies, you know that

867
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 1: I was talking about, you know, one of the ways

868
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: of gaming the system is you pour lead shot down

869
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: the gullet of your squirrel, and so when you weigh

870
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: the squirrel and squirrel ways more. You know, to me,

871
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: I laugh at because if you feel the need to

872
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: win a squirrel derby that bad that you're gonna put

873
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 1: bird shot down the belly of a squirrel, you know,

874
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: I find that laughable. I think it's kind of sad.

875
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a reason to condemn squirrel derbies,

876
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: you know. I think, you know, on the part of

877
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: the people who run squirrel derby's, they try to you know,

878
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: prevent cheating. Um, but people cheat, and I think you

879
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: just accept that as part of the cost of doing

880
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 1: business and move on. So does the environment of a

881
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: contest to get us into this. I guess that's something

882
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: that's that's more easily turned to something unethical, because again,

883
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: the you know, these folks point that out. I don't

884
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have an opinion on that,

885
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: but I'd be interested, like just just a contest because Pete. Then,

886
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: but I will say I guess that I we talk

887
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: a lot about the game theory, and this is this

888
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: came up in a lot of conversations that you and

889
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: I had in the past, like the game theory of hunting,

890
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: hunting itself, uh is valuable to a lot of people

891
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: because of its game like qualities and the challenge. Right,

892
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 1: So we're just being more explicit about the reward system

893
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 1: in this case, which I think maybe makes it off putting.

894
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 1: You know. Again, I think these contests, while they're sort

895
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: of artificial in the sense that they're making you know,

896
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: they're creating an opportunity for people hunt who might otherwise,

897
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, watch a football game on a Sunday afternoon. Um.

898
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: But again, once you're participating in the contest, just because

899
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: you're doing it with this sort of external additional piece

900
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,320
Speaker 1: of motivation, I don't think that necessarily taints it. You know,

901
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: let's go to your typical big buck contest during deer season,

902
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: where you're simply adding a contest overlay onto hunting that's

903
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 1: already gonna happen. So people are gonna be on the woods,

904
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: they're gonna be shooting deer, they're gonna be antler chasing anyway.

905
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: And what you do to sort of make things a

906
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: little bit more interesting in your gun club or your

907
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: fishing game club, you know, you put up on the chalkboard,

908
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: big Bug contest, five dollars a shot, you know, whoever

909
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: wins the puck. And to me, that's utterly harmless. You know,

910
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 1: I can't imagine anybody decides the night before opening day,

911
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: well damn, I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna win

912
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: that thirty five plot at that gun club. So you

913
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: know I'm going after mobi buck now. Uh. You know, yes,

914
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: I suppose there's a theoretical possibility that there's some knucklehead

915
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: out there who thinks that way. But I just don't

916
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: stay awake to night worrying about it. Yeah, they talked

917
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: about the squirrel Slam and some of their and their

918
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: fact sheet. It's hilarious that they have Projectity fact sheet

919
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 1: and there's just no facts on it. There's not a

920
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: single data point. There literally is not a single data

921
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: point that a fact sheet to me, should have like

922
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: bullet pointed data, and this has nothing. But it does.

923
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it's you know, it says forty states it's legal.

924
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: It would be a hard thing to track. And you know,

925
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: even they're even assessing whether something is legal or not.

926
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: You know, this is like football pools, right, Technically football

927
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: pools are illegal in a lot of places, and yet

928
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: every office has a football pool, every office has a

929
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: March Madness pool, and you know, it's the same thing

930
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 1: like you know, we also in this area sometimes they'll

931
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: have woodchuck you know, Marmot groundhog shooting contest were simply

932
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: you know, people are out there shooting woodch anyway, you know,

933
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: to cut down on on woodchuck's in in hayfields and

934
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: fishing game club in the middle of July when they're

935
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 1: not seeing much of the membership will say, let's have

936
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: a wood chuck hunt. You know, five dollars an entry,

937
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: biggest woodchuck, most wood chuck's um. And again there's nothing

938
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: necessarily offensive about that. People would be out there on

939
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: their own shooting wood chuck's regardless, and to have again,

940
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: to me, I interpret this having a little bit of

941
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: innocent fun, just to add some uh some sociology to

942
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: it and have people get together and you know, grill

943
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: burgers at the end of the day while they're weighing

944
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 1: wood chuck's. I just don't see this being a huge problem.

945
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,360
Speaker 1: There is some, like I said, so much of this

946
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 1: that it just seems like this intentionally misunderstood. I mean,

947
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: they they say in the same document, killing contests are

948
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: condemned by sports is because they violate fundamental hunting ethics,

949
00:52:55,560 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: the fundamentally deceptive perhaps. I mean, you know, I think

950
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: you know here, I I I don't know the website

951
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,600
Speaker 1: and I'll have to look at it after the podcast

952
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: and study it a little bit more. But if it's

953
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,800
Speaker 1: anything like h s us, I mean, it's just similar.

954
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can say a bad word

955
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:18,680
Speaker 1: on you you know, the terms bullshit, I mean, right,

956
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:20,759
Speaker 1: we've probably even talked about this maybe and some of

957
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: the other you know, the classic ethics essay by Harry

958
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: Frankfort on bullshit UH is widely read. It was on

959
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: the New York Times bestseller list ten years ago. Prince

960
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 1: the University Press published it as a standalone book, And

961
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: you know, Frankfort basically says, bullshit's more pernicious or damaging

962
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: to society than out outline because the bullshitter doesn't care

963
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: about the truth. The bullshit are just bluffs his or

964
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: her way through it. And I think what you get

965
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: on this level from these kinds of groups is a

966
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 1: fairly high level organized form of bullshit where they can

967
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 1: make it up as they go along, and nobody's gonna

968
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:03,240
Speaker 1: round truth them on any of these claims, right because

969
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: the audience that they're preaching to they've already made up

970
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: their mind. You know, they hate telling contests, So then

971
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: that fact sheet is not there to actually change anybody's mind. Um,

972
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: you know they're they're they're preaching to the choir. Yeah,

973
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 1: I mean that. You know when owen bullshit is what

974
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: it's called by Harry Frankfort out of Princeton. It's been

975
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: some years since I've read it. I would just pulling up. Man,

976
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: it is good. It's it's so good. Deceptive misinformation is

977
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 1: one of the things I remember that he talks about

978
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: in that quite a lot, and I think that's what

979
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: that's what this is, um. And we've talked about this

980
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: kind of over and over. We talked about this on

981
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,439
Speaker 1: this show when it when it came to the California

982
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: effort to band bear black bear hunting here this year.

983
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: We just talked about it with wolves in Wisconsin, and

984
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: we'll touch on it again in this case. It really

985
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: is deceptive. There's a lot of deceptive misinformation, UM that

986
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: that is really it's aimed to stroke the anti hunting crowd,

987
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: but it's also aimed to easily convince the non hunter

988
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 1: who has never thought about this before, sensationalized propaganda that really,

989
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: for any any person who's never thought about this critically,

990
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: it's gonna go, yeah, man, this is awful. And and

991
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: that's and then they'll sign a petition which Project Cowdy

992
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: has and that has sixty sings is just about um.

993
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,240
Speaker 1: And so that's kind of the tactic here. That's ABC

994
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,240
Speaker 1: over and over and over again. And and to borrow

995
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:32,440
Speaker 1: from Frankfort, you know, Frankfort has a lot of interesting observations.

996
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: He says, one of the reasons people bullshit is because

997
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,280
Speaker 1: it works, it's effective, and what the bullshitter is selling

998
00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 1: as rather than the truth, the bullshitter is selling their

999
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: own sincerity. Right, I'm a good guy. I'm on the

1000
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: good guy's side. I'm against killing animals. Um, you know.

1001
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: So I'm wearing the white hat, riding in on the

1002
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 1: white horse, and I'm saving the day. And those evil

1003
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 1: hunters they're bad boom and again subtle almost ad hominem

1004
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: attack on hunters, on sportsman, on coyote killers, on wood

1005
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 1: truck killers. And it's it's like you said, it's propaganda.

1006
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: I don't think that's much in dispute. Really, No, I mean,

1007
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 1: you can read read any of it. I know I've

1008
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: been reading a lot of it. But it's just I

1009
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: think it's to hear it and then to discuss how

1010
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:28,160
Speaker 1: they present it. I think really is all that we

1011
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: can do at this point, because as our friends at

1012
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 1: the Sports's Alliance always tell me, we're very reactive in

1013
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: the hunting community. This kind of language, you know, we

1014
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: do not go out and pursue it, uh, unless it

1015
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: comes at us, you know. We we we don't go

1016
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: out and promote a culture that is responsible unless somebody

1017
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: you know, pokes at us in this way. But they say,

1018
00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: state wildlife managees, management agencies, sorry, beholding to these interest

1019
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 1: groups because they rely on them for funding. So again

1020
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 1: we are holding them hostage with our tax dollars. Sonar.

1021
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 1: It just it gives you. It's an eye roll. They're

1022
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 1: setting up kind of this the strong man theory and

1023
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: this kind of money. You know, it almost it almost

1024
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: sounds like a conspiracy theory in the way that they

1025
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:16,920
Speaker 1: present it. They provide almost no protections to persecuted animals.

1026
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: In most states, coyotes can be killed year round using

1027
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: almost any method. And again, persecuted animals, let's return to that,

1028
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: to that statement or that you know, that turn of

1029
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: phrase for a minute. What is a persecuted animal? What

1030
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:33,560
Speaker 1: does that mean? You know? Well, you know, and here's

1031
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: where they're not bothering to just look at basic, you know,

1032
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: categories of wildlife management. Now I'm not trying to praise

1033
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: categories of wildlife management. There's nothing sacred about categories of

1034
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: wildlife management, but the fact that you have species that

1035
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: are classified as nuisance species where you can hunt them

1036
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: year around. So the coyote in some states, woodchucks in

1037
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: New York are considered a nuisance species, so you can

1038
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: hunt them all year round. Right, there's no limitations, no

1039
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: bag limits or whatever. And you know, again, how a

1040
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: target species is treated is a matter of law or

1041
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 1: regulation and also local context. So all of that gets ignored.

1042
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: I think in a generic you know, sort of stand

1043
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: against you know, contest killing. Um, you know, there's no detail,

1044
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: there's no subtlety, um, you know, so and that and

1045
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: that's unfortunate. Yeah, I will say that a couple you know,

1046
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: when I read a lot of what's what's being said

1047
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: here by Project Cody there's some things that that that

1048
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: hit on levels of truth, you know, the colonels the truth.

1049
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: One of them, I think be interested to hear you

1050
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: think about this is that we often in the history

1051
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 1: of our time, every Dan Floores' book County America, we

1052
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: vilified coyotes, you know, in the turn of the century

1053
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: and on forward, as as we kind of our manifest

1054
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: destiny took us across the country, we vilified wolves and coyotes,

1055
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: and we did a lot of thanks to those those species, um,

1056
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 1: that we probably shouldn't have in the way and the

1057
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 1: way we treated them um throughout the you know, the

1058
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: last one years up till now. They're you know. One

1059
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: of the things Project Howdy says is this this wildlife

1060
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,880
Speaker 1: killing contest perpetuates this myth um and some of the

1061
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: kind of dogma that's been baked into the hunting space

1062
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 1: about kill all coyotes or kill all wolves. Um. I

1063
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 1: think there's a kernel of truth to that. I think

1064
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,480
Speaker 1: there's something in the culture that needs to be sussed out. Possibly.

1065
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 1: You know, there's a there's an environmental historian named Thomas

1066
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: Dunlap who wrote a very interesting book. It's probably twenty

1067
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: years old at this point saving American's widlife, and it's

1068
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: a history of changing attitudes towards wildlife. And he specifically

1069
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: charts the history of attitudes towards so called environments, so wolves, coyotes,

1070
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: poisoning with compound ten eight and the like, and how

1071
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: wolves and coyotes go from being feared sort of pests

1072
00:59:56,520 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 1: and agricultural nuisances to being revered, you know, totems of

1073
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 1: you know, uh ecological consciousness in the sixties or seventies

1074
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: or or later. And you know, I think that's a

1075
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: very interesting history. But where it leaves us in an

1076
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 1: age of over abundant, potentially over abundant populations, is we

1077
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 1: still got to deal with how do you you know,

1078
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: we have more coyotes than the social caring capacity will allow,

1079
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,439
Speaker 1: We have more wolves than the social caring capacity will allow.

1080
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: So you're left with the sort of practical problem. What

1081
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: are we gonna do. Are we gonna have some sort

1082
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: of limited hunt by individuals, by sharpshooters, by contest killers,

1083
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: all of the above, none of the above. Are we

1084
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: gonna have fertility control? Are we gonna have like wolf,

1085
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 1: you know, birth control um like we try to do

1086
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: with deer, Another species. Uh, you know, these are just

1087
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: practical questions. And and this is where wildlife management, to

1088
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: the extent that it's forward looking, is always trying to

1089
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: figure out how to balance what are essentially sometimes plural

1090
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: and conflicting values. You know, how do you maximize the

1091
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:13,160
Speaker 1: greatest good for the greatest number with passing the fewest

1092
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: people off? And you know that's a that's a delicate

1093
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 1: balancing act. It came up with the Wisconsin wolf situation,

1094
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 1: the reason that Chippawa trial, the reason that Chippawat tribal

1095
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,200
Speaker 1: members didn't kill wolves just because they regard them as

1096
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: sacred in their culture. You know, so we're still it's

1097
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of you you really can't get around that history.

1098
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: And I really, no matter where you look, I'd say right,

1099
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: and it makes it makes it all the more complicated. Um,

1100
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 1: here's one thing that would be It is always interesting

1101
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 1: they talk about gratuitous violence Old Project Cody does, and

1102
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 1: they're often I've seen this in their film that I watched,

1103
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 1: and I've seen this in a couple of things where

1104
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 1: they're always they have piles of dead coyotes that are

1105
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: shown and then hunters laughing, hunters shaking hands, hunters celebrating,

1106
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:06,959
Speaker 1: and they present this as a bunch of bloodthirsty, egotistical

1107
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: assholes that don't like an ethical bone in their body.

1108
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: Um So there's always this conflict even in me to

1109
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,600
Speaker 1: say like, yeah, man, that does not look great if

1110
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,080
Speaker 1: you've never hunted before. But there's also the same idea

1111
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 1: that what they're doing isn't inherently unethical because you've you've

1112
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: clipped out part and taken out of context what they're

1113
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: actually doing. So I feel like that's a something we

1114
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: could you know, discuss that maybe at length here to

1115
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: try to suss out like the optics of the situation

1116
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 1: and the reality and what we do with that when

1117
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: it comes to you know, public and social policies within hunting.

1118
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: You know, how do we as a community manage that.

1119
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, again, the optics are bad, but you know

1120
01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: you're taking something that is uh just a fraction of

1121
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: the whole. You know, assholes are gonna asshole and you know,

1122
01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 1: think about that's a T shirt, Jim, that's a teacher. Well,

1123
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: there's a book, a Theory of Assholary. It's another philosopher

1124
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: you can look at up later. Um. Riots that occurred

1125
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: Wisconsin and Minnesota not within the last year or two,

1126
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, somebody wins the n c A tournament and

1127
01:03:15,760 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: the fans go out and they torched cars and they

1128
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: turned cars over. And you know, we don't condemn n

1129
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: ci A basketball because there's a group of knuckleheads who

1130
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 1: after winning the championship go out and our assholes. And

1131
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: to me, you know, just because you can find film

1132
01:03:36,240 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: footage of people being jerks and whooping it up and

1133
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: hooting and holler and saying yeehah, look at this, you know,

1134
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:47,880
Speaker 1: whackham and stack them sort of mentality, that doesn't you know,

1135
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: that portion isn't necessarily reflective of the whole. And you know,

1136
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: I defy anyone to sit there with a straight face

1137
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 1: and try and make a case that this is, you know,

1138
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: universal across the you know, entire pool of of hunters

1139
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: out there. I just I don't. I don't buy it.

1140
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 1: I think you they would be hard pressed to to

1141
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: make that case. Um. Yeah, they are. They're they're making it,

1142
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:18,320
Speaker 1: that's for sure. And I think that, like I said,

1143
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: I think part of this is that the hunting community

1144
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,439
Speaker 1: is just somehow immune to this anymore, if they've seen

1145
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: it over years and years and years the way that

1146
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 1: I became immediately aware of this the film that Project

1147
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: Coudy is putting out, and really the petition and other

1148
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,560
Speaker 1: things are by folks that I know that are filmmakers

1149
01:04:41,200 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: and creatives kind of in the more outdoor oriented space,

1150
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: like say not geo space or the non consumptive user

1151
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: group that that is that really takes this. I agree

1152
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:53,720
Speaker 1: with him with so many things, but then when it

1153
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: comes to predator hunting, they take it and they use

1154
01:04:57,080 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: it as a strong man, and they're happy to do

1155
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: so because the so accepted in their community becomes a

1156
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,560
Speaker 1: it becomes a virtue signal about how much you care

1157
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: about wild life, and so there's an operation. One of

1158
01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: the inconsistencies in their position is, you know, they've sort

1159
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: of set up a situation in their historical animosity towards trapping.

1160
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 1: You know, that makes shooting kyotes more popular than trapping,

1161
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 1: So trappers have a bad name. You want to see

1162
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 1: veneration for the kyles. I try to get my trapping license.

1163
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: I've watched about the trapping videos. It's something that maybe

1164
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: I'll do eventually. I never thought I would be interested

1165
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: in it, but you watch trapping videos, say on YouTube

1166
01:05:37,880 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: of these guys who are specifically trapping Kyle's for Kyle pelts,

1167
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: and they absolutely venerate the animal and treat the animal

1168
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: with just the utmost respect and talk about the challenges

1169
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: in some cases of of trapping and snaring you know,

1170
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 1: specific animals. And then they go through all the stuff

1171
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 1: about the help and where the high value pelts you know,

1172
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: how they are, and the lower quality pelts, and they

1173
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 1: take them all the way to market and talk about

1174
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: the economic value. And in fact, the animal welfare sort

1175
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: of movement historically has so reduced the market for Kyle

1176
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: pelts done respectfully through trapping that it's almost like they

1177
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:24,360
Speaker 1: set this up, you know, through their history, Uh, to

1178
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 1: have these kinds of you know, massive body count and

1179
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: I again, I don't really think that's very frequent, but

1180
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: you know, people blasting away with rifles from a hundred

1181
01:06:34,920 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: fifty yards and you know, so you know, I think

1182
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: I think that's also part of the story that they're

1183
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,880
Speaker 1: not sharing or you know, not eager to fess up

1184
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:49,160
Speaker 1: to for sure. Yeah, like I said, we the lines

1185
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: become so blurred in this case. Um, even the Massachusetts

1186
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 1: Division of Wildlife and Fisheries, I read a thing, a

1187
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:57,440
Speaker 1: report that they did in twenty nineteen where they were

1188
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: talking about uh that wildlife. One of the concerns that

1189
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: they had for a coyote hunting contests and other hunting

1190
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,440
Speaker 1: contests was that they contribute to the waste of animals

1191
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 1: um and they incentivize indiscriminate killing a wildlife. How could

1192
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: you possibly make that stand up? And as scientific report

1193
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: which they which again they said that they did on

1194
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: this how could you make those things stand up? You

1195
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 1: know that says more about the changing state of wildlife

1196
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: management in Massachusetts than anything else. I mean, you know,

1197
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,600
Speaker 1: if you have an agency that is slowly drifting towards

1198
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: an anti management sort of hands off approach to management,

1199
01:07:38,120 --> 01:07:43,760
Speaker 1: then you know, their public relations staff, their education staff

1200
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 1: are going to sound more and more like that, and

1201
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: you know, again that's just how that agency is drifting. Yeah,

1202
01:07:51,560 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of it. There's a lot of it.

1203
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts on just the idea of

1204
01:07:56,280 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 1: banning something in general? I've I've thought about kind of

1205
01:07:59,520 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: and we talked through this on this show a little

1206
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: bit already about kind of the polarization of thought when

1207
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: it comes to both politics and our society. One side

1208
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 1: really does like the banned things, and it seems to

1209
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: be the progressive left they really like, they really want

1210
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,360
Speaker 1: to ban the things that they seem to that that

1211
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:18,840
Speaker 1: they wanted to at least say or can in some

1212
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: cases may be proved societal harm. They love. There's so

1213
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: much ban lingo and this is another this is just

1214
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 1: another example of it um And so to ban something,

1215
01:08:30,120 --> 01:08:34,480
Speaker 1: it has to be reprehensible, evil, a detriment to society.

1216
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: And I think because of of their propensity to use

1217
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 1: that language, this hyperbole starts to get baked into a

1218
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 1: lot of very similar things where they're trying to air fifteens.

1219
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: They mentioned air fifteens in here, like there's some evil

1220
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 1: uh you know, some evil tool that only these awful

1221
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,560
Speaker 1: uh contest hunters use and they give to children and

1222
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 1: all this other stuff like it. Do you have you

1223
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 1: thought about that in terms of how that stillizes in

1224
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: this polarization of thought. You know, again then you use

1225
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: the term progressive left, that's your term mind, But you know,

1226
01:09:10,840 --> 01:09:14,560
Speaker 1: banning these kinds of activities is anti liberal right. The

1227
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 1: classic liberal statement is John Stewart Mills on liberty and liberty.

1228
01:09:19,280 --> 01:09:22,840
Speaker 1: Freedom is allowing people the freedom to make their own

1229
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: decisions based on freedom of conscience, their own beliefs, right,

1230
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: and a minimal role for the state. Right, So we

1231
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: don't pass loss to ban things just because we disapprove

1232
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 1: of them. Um and and here, uh, if it is

1233
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,680
Speaker 1: in fact progressive, progressive leftism that's behind some of this

1234
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 1: banning impetus, that's anti liberal, it's it's more authoritarian, it's

1235
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:49,680
Speaker 1: and and to me, I think more potentially dangerous than

1236
01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: simply allowing people to freedom to choose based on their

1237
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 1: own their own conscience. Do you do you feel like

1238
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 1: that that's where I could be definitely proven wrong in

1239
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:04,200
Speaker 1: term like how we determine, you know, where this comes from,

1240
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: or like what kind of community ideologies are pushing it

1241
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: or political ideology of pushing it. It just seems that

1242
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:13,400
Speaker 1: way to me. Um, when these bands come come from,

1243
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 1: you know, it's accurate. I mean, you know it's it's

1244
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,560
Speaker 1: accurate as far as it goes. You know, it's I

1245
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:21,680
Speaker 1: don't think it's limited to the progressive left. I think

1246
01:10:21,720 --> 01:10:26,640
Speaker 1: you might have hunters who are themselves conservative, who not

1247
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 1: realizing the significance of the stand that they're taking. The

1248
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 1: ones who say no, I don't like the way you hunt,

1249
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: the lesban the way you hunt. They're just inconsistent there,

1250
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:44,000
Speaker 1: contradicting themselves. Potentially, this happens across the board. We have

1251
01:10:44,040 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 1: a situation in Montana right now that a lot of

1252
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 1: folks just do not agree with me on when it

1253
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: comes to crossbows during archery ELXis. I'm glad that you

1254
01:10:55,000 --> 01:10:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you laughed when I said that I

1255
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 1: cannot stand and I don't want to get into I

1256
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 1: have another whole podcast prepared, let's go, Jim. I just

1257
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 1: I cannot for the life of me. And again I

1258
01:11:10,360 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: don't have I have like a whole document on this.

1259
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 1: I'll pull it up at some point for the life

1260
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:16,719
Speaker 1: of me. So the idea, I guess I'm just setting

1261
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: up the idea. Crossbows during archery elk season make uh

1262
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: the archery hunting license holder more efficient, right, So it

1263
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:28,760
Speaker 1: changes the percentage of kill, right, So you kill more elks,

1264
01:11:28,760 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 1: so you would have to shorten the season. This is

1265
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,800
Speaker 1: essentially there's some nuance to it, of course, but this

1266
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:36,560
Speaker 1: is essentially where the argument goes. If you add crossbows

1267
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,519
Speaker 1: in things are more efficient, Um, the hunter success rate

1268
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 1: goes up, so you have to shorten the season to

1269
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:45,360
Speaker 1: keep the same population or the same tag numbers for

1270
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:51,559
Speaker 1: the state. Okay, fine, how could you possibly using all

1271
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:56,679
Speaker 1: logic presented, are you for a less effective killing tool

1272
01:11:57,760 --> 01:12:01,800
Speaker 1: in hunting? How could you possibly sit on whatever high

1273
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 1: horse that you're on and say that cross but because

1274
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: I like my seven weeks season, that we should we

1275
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 1: need to be less efficient in killing and we can't

1276
01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 1: have this um horizontal bow or you know, non archery tool.

1277
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,320
Speaker 1: This is where I'm at. I I will just say

1278
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: to people, if you're gonna sit there and tell me

1279
01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:28,720
Speaker 1: that you that bow hunting is less efficient and we

1280
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:32,040
Speaker 1: want to keep it that way, I can't. I've heard

1281
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:34,960
Speaker 1: people call it wounding season within the hunting community. So

1282
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,680
Speaker 1: I just that's where we are in Montanous specifically, and

1283
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 1: this has happened across the country with white tails and

1284
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,719
Speaker 1: other things. I can't abide by that. It just doesn't

1285
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 1: make objective sense to me. Well, and there you can,

1286
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 1: you know, analyze this morally or ethically and just say

1287
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,639
Speaker 1: those are those people are selfish. I mean, I'm gonna

1288
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 1: way oversimplify by saying that, But you know, if you

1289
01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 1: have people whose only interest is there self interesting, I

1290
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:01,080
Speaker 1: want more for me, me, me, me, me, So I

1291
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 1: don't want to share my hunting season with crossbow hunters.

1292
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:07,439
Speaker 1: That might reflect the lack of character on the part

1293
01:13:07,520 --> 01:13:09,559
Speaker 1: of people who are just sort of wine and invention

1294
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 1: about crossbows. Um. Moreover, if part of the point of

1295
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 1: having an archery season in the first place is to

1296
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 1: sort of represent the sort of spirit, at least of

1297
01:13:21,560 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: primitive arms. Right in many states in the East, for example,

1298
01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:28,720
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania archery season muzzle loader is flintlock only. You know,

1299
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:33,640
Speaker 1: the ideas primitive arms, A crossbow is as primitive as

1300
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,080
Speaker 1: you can get. Go back to the medieval art from

1301
01:13:36,640 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 1: seventy six Gastone to Phoebus is lever shots. The Book

1302
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 1: of the Chase, and there are multiple chapters about how

1303
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:46,679
Speaker 1: to hunt everything with crossbows. So you know, it's it's

1304
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that. There's a whole lot of argument there.

1305
01:13:50,240 --> 01:13:53,000
Speaker 1: There's a lot of assertion with no argument. There's a

1306
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,280
Speaker 1: lot of assertions with no evidence or reasons. I don't

1307
01:13:56,400 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 1: like it. Period. That's usually not a good base this

1308
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 1: for policy, And that's a it's and it's a very

1309
01:14:03,040 --> 01:14:05,519
Speaker 1: easy argument to make to those that will also harm right,

1310
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 1: if you would say you're currently an archery l hunter,

1311
01:14:08,280 --> 01:14:10,920
Speaker 1: your vertical bow guy, you love your thing. You don't

1312
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: want to see your season shortened. For these people, it's

1313
01:14:15,960 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 1: an easy delineation. It's an easy demarcation, and then you

1314
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:23,600
Speaker 1: can get into again much like this. Um So, I

1315
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 1: think this does display kind of how the same kind

1316
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:29,000
Speaker 1: of thought processes can get baked into both in the

1317
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 1: hunting community and and within and without well. And it

1318
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:35,400
Speaker 1: ignores the positive argument that one might make on behalf

1319
01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 1: of the elderly archer who physically now needs across bow

1320
01:14:40,960 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 1: can't pull back on a compound bow. And you know,

1321
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 1: if people would sort of pay attention to that side

1322
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 1: of the equation, what goes along with that with an

1323
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: aging hunter group cohort population. Those people are probably not

1324
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 1: as mobile as they used to be. They're not hiking

1325
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 1: twenty miles in to use their crossbow to get the

1326
01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: all in the bad country. So as much as you

1327
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 1: might say, oh, this is gonna make it too easy

1328
01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 1: and too efficient and whatnot, the fact of an aging

1329
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 1: hunter population that's gonna kind of balance out to my

1330
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,120
Speaker 1: way of thinking, that's gonna end up being kind of

1331
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 1: a wash. So, yeah, more people use crossbows, but many

1332
01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:20,120
Speaker 1: and not most of the people using those crossbows are

1333
01:15:20,160 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 1: gonna be you know, getting older. Yeah, yeah, well that's

1334
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 1: that's again the the arguments like, well, there's disabled you know,

1335
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:30,599
Speaker 1: disabled hunters can use crossbows for most of the rest

1336
01:15:30,680 --> 01:15:34,320
Speaker 1: of the season, and there's there's specific things you can

1337
01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 1: do as a disabled hunter. But again I think that

1338
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 1: that ignores the fact that very very very many new hunters.

1339
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 1: Every time we take a new hunter into archery and

1340
01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 1: we want to just show them that season, especially with elk,

1341
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 1: elk are completely different animal in September than they are

1342
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 1: in November. They're completely different um. And if you want

1343
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,400
Speaker 1: to take somebody into that environment and show them that

1344
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,679
Speaker 1: with a crossbow in hand, they have a better chance

1345
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: to as they had a better chance of learning quicker

1346
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 1: and they have better chance of experiencing hunting. Um. And

1347
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 1: we are cutting that off, cutting off our nose despite

1348
01:16:11,280 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 1: our face very much because we want to keep it

1349
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:15,600
Speaker 1: the way it is. And then as you said that,

1350
01:16:15,760 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 1: just to me, there's only one way to read that,

1351
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: and that's selfish and it doesn't go along the lines

1352
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 1: of the way that we need to think about managing

1353
01:16:24,720 --> 01:16:28,559
Speaker 1: wildlife or or opening up are the experience of hunting

1354
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: to everyone, it just doesn't. Um. I think it's I

1355
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 1: think it's a it's a huge problem. Crossbows, for whatever reason,

1356
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 1: have been vilified, UM Pope and Young Club and other

1357
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:41,719
Speaker 1: traditionist clubs that just don't want to see that change.

1358
01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 1: And at some level I understand, I understand where they're

1359
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 1: coming from. But I think when you applied to broad

1360
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: based wildlife policy, man, it's it is. It's a tough

1361
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: argument to make. It just is right, right, UM, have

1362
01:16:54,400 --> 01:16:56,680
Speaker 1: you thought about your Have you ever hunt with crossbows?

1363
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,120
Speaker 1: You're in the land of crossbow us over there. Well, again,

1364
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,559
Speaker 1: you know part of my issues. I'm I'm color blind.

1365
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm red green deficient, so I cannot. I cannot blood trail.

1366
01:17:07,880 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: So archery has always been something I've opted out of,

1367
01:17:10,560 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 1: partly because of my fear that I'll need to blood trail.

1368
01:17:14,080 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 1: I mentioned my daughter getting her first year, we had

1369
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:19,640
Speaker 1: to blood trailer. I was astounded at how good she

1370
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 1: was at it. She saw every drop of blood. It

1371
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 1: was not of a plump blood trail, but it was there.

1372
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 1: I didn't see anything, and you know that just hammered

1373
01:17:29,240 --> 01:17:33,200
Speaker 1: home to me the morality of my own decision to

1374
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 1: stay away from archery. You know, I want to shoot

1375
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 1: it with a gun, and I wanted to fall over,

1376
01:17:37,960 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 1: So that's ideal. Yeah, that's when I think about I

1377
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 1: have a young son when I think about taking him hunting,

1378
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 1: and I think about how where he should start from

1379
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,520
Speaker 1: right and how he should build out his his competency,

1380
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,600
Speaker 1: and um, I do want to tell him that that

1381
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,400
Speaker 1: we we want to challenge ourselves in this endeavor. But

1382
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:00,040
Speaker 1: as as we probably talked about here quite off and

1383
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,479
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about fair kill first and fair chase. Maybe

1384
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:05,960
Speaker 1: ask you that what's what's going to kill this this

1385
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 1: animal and the and really the most ethical and efficient way,

1386
01:18:11,600 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 1: And I'll work backwards from there in terms of look

1387
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 1: at this, and there's your argument for crossbows in certain context.

1388
01:18:18,360 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 1: You know, it's the idea that you want something to

1389
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: be efficient and uh, you know, painless for the animal ideally.

1390
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:29,879
Speaker 1: And you know, again this gets back to these aesthetic

1391
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:33,600
Speaker 1: questions about technique and technology. And again years ago I

1392
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:38,320
Speaker 1: had that argument with David Peterson about like preserve hunting,

1393
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: and I argued, there's a place for preserved hunting. It's

1394
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: a controlled environment. You have a young hunter, the bird

1395
01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:47,919
Speaker 1: is planted, it's going to go up in a predictable direction.

1396
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about swinging through somebody, And

1397
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: you get to teach somebody how to hunt correctly in

1398
01:18:54,520 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: an artificial, makeedly a contrived environment. But that's not a

1399
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:03,439
Speaker 1: bad thing. If you're trying to teach a young hunter

1400
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:05,760
Speaker 1: how to do it right, There'll be plenty of time

1401
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,560
Speaker 1: to go after wild birds later. Um So you know,

1402
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 1: to me, I think it all calls for a kind

1403
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:17,960
Speaker 1: of contextual reasoning. The context matters. Uh so, yeah, that's

1404
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:21,000
Speaker 1: what that's That's where I feel like I agree with you.

1405
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:22,559
Speaker 1: I've struggled with this over the years, and I think

1406
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 1: most hunters kind of enter into it with the mindset of, um,

1407
01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 1: what their personal ethics are right and and even maybe

1408
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:37,400
Speaker 1: what their situation situational ethics might be. But it's often

1409
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:40,600
Speaker 1: such a solitary decision that you have to make, that

1410
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:44,559
Speaker 1: that your public declaration of how you feel about something

1411
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:49,880
Speaker 1: and your private action are often at odds sometimes and

1412
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 1: you and you have to then determine, like do I

1413
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 1: tell the truth about this that I wounded three elk

1414
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 1: this year? I didn't, but like that I wounded three

1415
01:19:56,720 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: elk this year, but I still don't want to people

1416
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:01,280
Speaker 1: to have crossbows. Do I do I tell the truth

1417
01:20:01,439 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 1: here or do I shadow this portion, this uncomfortable portion

1418
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: to be able to then have the ethical conversation without

1419
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 1: the personal connection that quite happens quite often. Well, And

1420
01:20:14,439 --> 01:20:17,400
Speaker 1: and crippling loss is something that nobody likes to admit to,

1421
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,120
Speaker 1: and yet it happens. And I don't think there's anything

1422
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:23,240
Speaker 1: to be gained by denying it. Do you want to

1423
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: sell it in a big way? No, because you know,

1424
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 1: optics do matter. But uh, and crippling loss isn't a

1425
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: reason to ban hunting, you know. I mean, if the

1426
01:20:35,360 --> 01:20:38,200
Speaker 1: hunter is conscientious, they will do you know, his or

1427
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 1: her best to to minimize that that risk. You can

1428
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,360
Speaker 1: never eliminate the risk. There's always the chance that the

1429
01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: animal flinches at the last or you just get the

1430
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: toughest animal in the woods. You know, you could hit

1431
01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 1: it directly where it needs to be hit, and that

1432
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:56,640
Speaker 1: animal just is made of steel and goes off and

1433
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 1: dies somewhere else and you never find it. And it's

1434
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: just luck. That's luck. Yeah, it doesn't mean the only

1435
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:07,920
Speaker 1: hunt the weak animals, I mean, yeah, or maybe, but

1436
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 1: it is, it is. It's an interesting thing that happens

1437
01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:13,120
Speaker 1: within our own minds as hunters in the way we

1438
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:16,439
Speaker 1: try to, you know, offset the value system that we present,

1439
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:18,640
Speaker 1: the ethics that we present with what actually happens in

1440
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,760
Speaker 1: the woods. And I think that happens maybe in the

1441
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,439
Speaker 1: reverse when it comes to wildlife killing contests, that the

1442
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:27,440
Speaker 1: straw man is easy to identify in that in that situation.

1443
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:31,439
Speaker 1: You know, we have a contest up here. You probably

1444
01:21:31,479 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 1: don't in Montana. The city of Auburn, New York, has

1445
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:40,639
Speaker 1: a problem with crows, and so there are ten thousand

1446
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:44,639
Speaker 1: crows that descend upon the city of Auburn. And they've

1447
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:48,519
Speaker 1: tried various methods to try and scare the crows away.

1448
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:51,920
Speaker 1: And you know different places around the country whose border

1449
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 1: colleagues to scare geese away on golf courses, and and

1450
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 1: you know, they tried to have a crow hunt a

1451
01:21:59,160 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 1: couple of years and a contest just to get people

1452
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,880
Speaker 1: to shoot a bird species that nobody's shooting for food.

1453
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 1: There's there's just nobody makes a living out of crow killing.

1454
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:13,320
Speaker 1: And and here again they were trying to kill two

1455
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:16,320
Speaker 1: birds with one song, so to speak. You know, just

1456
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 1: provide some incentive for people to get out there and

1457
01:22:19,040 --> 01:22:22,320
Speaker 1: and and try and you know, help the city with

1458
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:27,280
Speaker 1: this problem. And that contest got shouted down, and so

1459
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:30,760
Speaker 1: Auburn continues to struggle with this population of crows. You

1460
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,080
Speaker 1: walk around the town town depending on where that flock

1461
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:35,960
Speaker 1: is any given day, you know, you're you're walking through

1462
01:22:36,040 --> 01:22:42,479
Speaker 1: a you know, ankle ankle high crow ship. So um so, yeah,

1463
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: you can be a pro crow purist and say no

1464
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:49,560
Speaker 1: contests are bad, but you know you're you're gonna have

1465
01:22:49,680 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: to walk from the downtown. I had embrace your purism.

1466
01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,799
Speaker 1: We ate crow here one time. Oh yeah, it was awful.

1467
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:03,640
Speaker 1: It was chalky and just it was it was I

1468
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:07,400
Speaker 1: can't in butter milk and make it like ag. They

1469
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:10,519
Speaker 1: put it on like a Ryan Callahan cooked it up,

1470
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:11,600
Speaker 1: and they put it on the kind of like a

1471
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:17,479
Speaker 1: cracker with some tomatoes and a very Italian presentation. And

1472
01:23:17,560 --> 01:23:20,479
Speaker 1: it was just other people, I think, claimed that it

1473
01:23:20,600 --> 01:23:22,559
Speaker 1: was pretty tasty, and I was just looking at them

1474
01:23:22,640 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 1: like you're lying, because I know you're eating exactly what

1475
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 1: I meant. And it's there's no accounting for taste, you know,

1476
01:23:29,280 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 1: yeah there is. Yeah. I watched you know, like I

1477
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:34,640
Speaker 1: said about these trapping videos, you know, you have some

1478
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,360
Speaker 1: people who believe in sort of full utilization of the resource,

1479
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 1: and they'll eat the coyote, and they'll eat the beaver meat,

1480
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:43,439
Speaker 1: and they'll eat the various things that they're trapping, and

1481
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:46,320
Speaker 1: you know, with cruel of the problem is there's just

1482
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 1: so little meat there. I can't even We dropped one

1483
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:50,639
Speaker 1: in the water one time and it came out looking

1484
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: like a mouse. I mean it was just tiny. Yeah. Yeah,

1485
01:23:54,040 --> 01:23:57,759
Speaker 1: I can't promote I can't remote full. I can promote

1486
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 1: saying like you should give it a shot, and I'm not.

1487
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm not thinking you're killing a mess of crows for

1488
01:24:03,360 --> 01:24:05,599
Speaker 1: dinner is probably not going to make your wife all

1489
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 1: that happy or your kids either. Depending on how you

1490
01:24:09,360 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 1: do it, maybe a slow smoke might might do it.

1491
01:24:11,360 --> 01:24:12,920
Speaker 1: But that's I guess at the end of the day, Jim,

1492
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 1: would you? Would you? I try to suss all this,

1493
01:24:16,120 --> 01:24:17,840
Speaker 1: and I know a lot of this. A lot of

1494
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,680
Speaker 1: people will say that these ethical conversations that we have

1495
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 1: are our mental gymnastics and we're working our way through

1496
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:25,840
Speaker 1: something that really doesn't have any answers. But at the

1497
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,479
Speaker 1: bottom line, we will always end up just talking about

1498
01:24:28,880 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 1: individual or group hunter motivation. Right, Like, what are you

1499
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:34,680
Speaker 1: motivated by? And what's that due to the way you

1500
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:38,160
Speaker 1: treat animals? What's that due to your um your understanding

1501
01:24:38,200 --> 01:24:42,040
Speaker 1: of the ecological benefits or detractions of certain types of hunting.

1502
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:45,560
Speaker 1: Is there a way I know people have in the

1503
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 1: past said this type of hunter, this type of hunter.

1504
01:24:48,360 --> 01:24:53,760
Speaker 1: There's been you know, writers and theorists to identify the

1505
01:24:53,800 --> 01:24:56,840
Speaker 1: different types of hunters and their motivations. But have you

1506
01:24:56,920 --> 01:25:00,439
Speaker 1: thought about a way to communicate that holistic to say that,

1507
01:25:01,479 --> 01:25:03,479
Speaker 1: you know, there it might be one sentence like hunters

1508
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 1: are are are like campers. There's a lot of people

1509
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: from a lot of different perspectives and campers litter that

1510
01:25:09,000 --> 01:25:12,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean all camping is wrong. That's the way.

1511
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:14,160
Speaker 1: That's where I kind of land, and that puts me

1512
01:25:14,280 --> 01:25:17,920
Speaker 1: more towards the liberty. Let's not ban things. Let's let's

1513
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:22,320
Speaker 1: use the bounds of our model of conservation, wildlife conservation,

1514
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:24,960
Speaker 1: and and go from there. Let's just let's let's be

1515
01:25:25,040 --> 01:25:29,320
Speaker 1: more open, less closed. That's exactly right. And and again

1516
01:25:29,560 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 1: we should celebrate the diversity of humankind. And you know,

1517
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 1: and hunters are a diverse lot, and that's that's a

1518
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:39,479
Speaker 1: good thing. And the fact that people are interested in

1519
01:25:39,520 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 1: different kinds of hunting and different critters that they hunt,

1520
01:25:42,120 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 1: different techniques. It's all good. And again, just because people

1521
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:51,839
Speaker 1: are offended by hunting, or offended by trapping, or offended

1522
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:56,680
Speaker 1: by squirrel derby's or offended by Kyle killing, that that

1523
01:25:57,080 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 1: that offense is not enough to justify, you know, abolishing

1524
01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 1: an activity that other people care about. Um, you know. So,

1525
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:10,640
Speaker 1: but the camping analogy, that's the you're right, that's a

1526
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 1: good analogy. How do we how do you think we

1527
01:26:13,479 --> 01:26:17,120
Speaker 1: do that on a legislator front, because obviously that's that's

1528
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:19,960
Speaker 1: an h U S model. That's how they run this.

1529
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: They're going to put in anti hunting legislation. We talked

1530
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 1: about this in a in an earlier episode about kind

1531
01:26:25,160 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 1: of like the tangible way that we guard the gate

1532
01:26:28,120 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 1: or let we guard against this legislation and then the

1533
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,639
Speaker 1: open way we have the discussion around it, because because

1534
01:26:34,680 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: that legislation is gonna keep coming, band county contest, band trapping,

1535
01:26:38,680 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 1: band grizzly bear hunting, that stuff's gonna keep on coming. Um,

1536
01:26:42,680 --> 01:26:44,719
Speaker 1: And I'm right there with you with the slippery slope,

1537
01:26:44,760 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 1: and I'm not man I hesitate to make that argument,

1538
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,560
Speaker 1: but it's it's you know, it's pretty true in this

1539
01:26:50,680 --> 01:26:53,160
Speaker 1: case with the legislation at least well, and we've seen

1540
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 1: forms of hunting eliminated. So whether it's mountain lion hunting

1541
01:26:57,280 --> 01:27:01,200
Speaker 1: or bear hunting, you know that the risk is there. Um.

1542
01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:05,719
Speaker 1: You know again, I think people who care about hunting,

1543
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 1: wildlife managers who care about hunting. I do think there's

1544
01:27:10,400 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 1: a need for people to acquaint themselves with the basic

1545
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 1: political theory of you know, American democracy undergirded by English liberalism,

1546
01:27:22,360 --> 01:27:24,600
Speaker 1: you know, the liberalism of people like John Locke and

1547
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:30,560
Speaker 1: the founder you know, the founders h Jeffersonian ideals. You know.

1548
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 1: As corny again as that might sound to the outsider listening, uh,

1549
01:27:35,080 --> 01:27:38,719
Speaker 1: it really matters that, you know, all else being equal,

1550
01:27:38,800 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: we try to privilege people's freedom to make their own choices,

1551
01:27:43,240 --> 01:27:49,360
Speaker 1: and we try to have government be restrained about coercing

1552
01:27:49,479 --> 01:27:53,439
Speaker 1: people one way or another, either to do something or

1553
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 1: to not do something. It's like vaccines right now with COVID,

1554
01:27:56,880 --> 01:27:59,599
Speaker 1: we want people to have a freedom to make that decision.

1555
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,439
Speaker 1: It's debated and debatable whether we're gonna force people to

1556
01:28:03,479 --> 01:28:06,000
Speaker 1: have a vaccine against their will, even though most of

1557
01:28:06,120 --> 01:28:09,320
Speaker 1: us think that's a good thing that people take the vaccine,

1558
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:15,920
Speaker 1: but voluntarily. And that's the dilemma between freedom and freedom

1559
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 1: of choice and the role of society and dictating people's

1560
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:23,840
Speaker 1: choices using government as the instrument and government as a

1561
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:29,920
Speaker 1: blunt instrument. Um. You know. So, I just think we

1562
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:34,720
Speaker 1: need to just continually reacquaint people with that sort of

1563
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 1: basic level of political theory. And and a little of

1564
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:40,400
Speaker 1: it goes a long way because you're kind of reminding

1565
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:43,120
Speaker 1: people of things they already know or that they learned

1566
01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:47,280
Speaker 1: in like high school civics or middle school civics, and

1567
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 1: they just haven't thought about in a long while. The

1568
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:54,040
Speaker 1: idea that we're often with these critical issues talking past

1569
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:57,320
Speaker 1: each other, right, Like, we have completely different ways of

1570
01:28:57,720 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 1: framing the topic, uh, gun control, it's stopping mass murders

1571
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 1: or protecting your family. Those are not That's not a

1572
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 1: debate you can have in a rational way. Those are

1573
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:11,880
Speaker 1: two very different. Not. Those are two, it's it's set

1574
01:29:11,960 --> 01:29:14,560
Speaker 1: up to fail. Um. I think wildlife killing contest is

1575
01:29:14,760 --> 01:29:18,160
Speaker 1: very similar. It's stopping the victimization and murder of wildlife.

1576
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:20,759
Speaker 1: And on the other side, you might say, well, I'm

1577
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:23,800
Speaker 1: just I've been told that if I kill a kaya,

1578
01:29:23,960 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 1: it's good for this ecosystem. I trust them North American

1579
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:29,160
Speaker 1: Mile of Conservation. I trust the state game age. He's

1580
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:31,280
Speaker 1: telling me what's right and wrong. If it's not illegal,

1581
01:29:31,680 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 1: it's it's probably right and I should be free to

1582
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,640
Speaker 1: do it. Um. I don't know if that's really That

1583
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:40,000
Speaker 1: might not be apples to oranges in terms of comparations,

1584
01:29:40,040 --> 01:29:43,760
Speaker 1: But it's a cartoon on each side, right, because you

1585
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 1: can take you can make a car a cartoon or

1586
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 1: a parody of the contest and and dramatize it and

1587
01:29:50,520 --> 01:29:52,560
Speaker 1: point out everything that you think is wrong with it.

1588
01:29:53,520 --> 01:29:55,639
Speaker 1: And by the same token, you could make a fetish

1589
01:29:55,680 --> 01:29:58,280
Speaker 1: of the North American model and say it's all about

1590
01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 1: ecosystem help, when in fact, most of the time it

1591
01:30:03,640 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 1: isn't you know, if you have an over abund oft

1592
01:30:05,920 --> 01:30:09,120
Speaker 1: coyote population, the ecosystem may be just fine with having

1593
01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:12,880
Speaker 1: lots of coyotes. It's the people that don't want to

1594
01:30:13,000 --> 01:30:15,439
Speaker 1: be overwhelmed by coyotes. It's the people that don't want

1595
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:19,600
Speaker 1: to be overwhelmed by wolves for crows, you know, or woodchucks.

1596
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:24,280
Speaker 1: And if you default to the North American model, that

1597
01:30:24,400 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: itself is a kind of elaborate bullshit. You know, that's

1598
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:31,720
Speaker 1: a it's way too easy for hunters to try and

1599
01:30:31,800 --> 01:30:34,200
Speaker 1: pin it on the wildlife manager. Well, they tell us

1600
01:30:34,240 --> 01:30:37,240
Speaker 1: that we're killing deer to save the deer. That doesn't

1601
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 1: make any sense. It's never made any sense. You know.

1602
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:43,200
Speaker 1: There's lots of reasons for killing deer, killing coyles or wolves,

1603
01:30:43,320 --> 01:30:45,840
Speaker 1: and some of them are social, and we should just

1604
01:30:45,920 --> 01:30:49,400
Speaker 1: fess up to that. You know. We we have two

1605
01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:53,680
Speaker 1: thousand walls in the Upper Peninsula Michigan, and honestly, we

1606
01:30:53,760 --> 01:30:56,760
Speaker 1: could get by with a thousand, right, and we'd make

1607
01:30:56,840 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 1: everybody happy who loves wolves, because they're still there and

1608
01:30:59,520 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 1: there are some a little while and their sacred. And

1609
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:05,360
Speaker 1: the bear hunter who just had his fourth hound munched

1610
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,760
Speaker 1: by a wolf, it's probably gonna be happy that at

1611
01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:11,800
Speaker 1: least somebody is kind of siding with his interest in

1612
01:31:11,880 --> 01:31:15,640
Speaker 1: having hounds and and doing something about you know what

1613
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: he perceives to be a problem. Yeah, I mean the

1614
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 1: guy in Wyoming who I was just reading an article

1615
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,000
Speaker 1: the other day of a guy in Wyoming was quoted

1616
01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:25,679
Speaker 1: out of Casper was talking about how he has sheep

1617
01:31:26,320 --> 01:31:29,639
Speaker 1: and he is very much for a twenty dollar bounty

1618
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:32,320
Speaker 1: on kayades and he shoots the shoots a kiote on site,

1619
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 1: right and barries him and doesn't Hell yeah, probably, and

1620
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 1: he's very much for the bounty system, right. I'm sure

1621
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:40,160
Speaker 1: he doesn't mind wildlife killing kinds. But I feel like

1622
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:43,519
Speaker 1: that's really good advice in terms of the model of

1623
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,439
Speaker 1: a wild conservation. I'm probably guilty of kind of using it.

1624
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:48,479
Speaker 1: I try to use it as guardrails is a way

1625
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,320
Speaker 1: to like keep us in the factor. No, I'm not

1626
01:31:51,400 --> 01:31:53,559
Speaker 1: trying to say it's not a factor. But here's where

1627
01:31:53,600 --> 01:31:56,760
Speaker 1: the North American model backfires with over abundant deer and

1628
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 1: wildlife Society members are aware of this, you know, therth

1629
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,680
Speaker 1: American model says, we don't sell meat, right. We do

1630
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:06,880
Speaker 1: this because we lead the individual hunt and philis freezer.

1631
01:32:07,360 --> 01:32:10,120
Speaker 1: But pretty soon we're gonna have to privatize a market

1632
01:32:10,280 --> 01:32:13,800
Speaker 1: in Venison because there's too many deer. And the North

1633
01:32:13,840 --> 01:32:17,920
Speaker 1: American model is is contradictory because oh yeah, we allow

1634
01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:22,799
Speaker 1: hunters to consume their own meat, but it ignores trapping,

1635
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:27,599
Speaker 1: you know, which is done for market based sort of reasons,

1636
01:32:27,720 --> 01:32:30,400
Speaker 1: or at least historically has you know, so you can

1637
01:32:30,479 --> 01:32:33,080
Speaker 1: you can trap beavers. And right now the beaver peltics

1638
01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:35,760
Speaker 1: worth what is it worth? Fifteen dollars, twelve dollars whatever,

1639
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 1: I mean, there's still a price. Um, you know, so

1640
01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:43,639
Speaker 1: I think what's looking forward? This is the point earlier

1641
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:48,120
Speaker 1: about wildlife managers having to look forward. They can't get

1642
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 1: locked into a North American model sort of mentality. They're

1643
01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 1: gonna have to be creative going forward. And yeah, yeah,

1644
01:32:55,240 --> 01:32:58,000
Speaker 1: I mean that the our our bison herds and in

1645
01:32:58,080 --> 01:33:01,800
Speaker 1: the state account of the state of Montana, bison his livestock, right,

1646
01:33:02,200 --> 01:33:04,880
Speaker 1: but yet we hunt them in certain places. I can

1647
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,160
Speaker 1: get it's very this is a very nuance to get

1648
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:08,640
Speaker 1: a very nuance thing. I don't want to present as

1649
01:33:08,640 --> 01:33:10,960
Speaker 1: like general it's a livestock, can get hunt it. There's

1650
01:33:10,960 --> 01:33:13,640
Speaker 1: a lot going on there. But there there are some

1651
01:33:13,840 --> 01:33:18,720
Speaker 1: inconsistencies in the way that we view wildlife and certain capacities.

1652
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:21,600
Speaker 1: And again, you know, the North America model, being is

1653
01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:25,040
Speaker 1: as imperfect as it is, has kind of pushed us,

1654
01:33:25,160 --> 01:33:27,599
Speaker 1: to your point a little bit towards kind of captive

1655
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:31,519
Speaker 1: servits being served up as venison uh at fancy restaurants

1656
01:33:31,560 --> 01:33:34,960
Speaker 1: around the country and being sold we you know, being

1657
01:33:35,040 --> 01:33:39,719
Speaker 1: sold by organic meat suppliers who are getting this captive

1658
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:41,600
Speaker 1: service from New Zealand and selling it as just like

1659
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:45,559
Speaker 1: fresh venison. You know, this alternative meat when it really

1660
01:33:45,640 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 1: has it's kind of forced the hand of the captive

1661
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:51,080
Speaker 1: serviid world. Especially red deer in New Zealand is just

1662
01:33:51,160 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 1: one of the main sources of this. But it's kind

1663
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 1: of forced us into that, into that realm where you

1664
01:33:56,120 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: could possibly be uh using ven sin killed by hunters

1665
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,240
Speaker 1: or donated by hunters or some way. And now that

1666
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: again this this, this is a lovely long conversation and

1667
01:34:07,920 --> 01:34:10,599
Speaker 1: you'd have to really meter it out, but a good

1668
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:13,200
Speaker 1: point to be made there for sure. Well, and it's

1669
01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:14,920
Speaker 1: done in other places. You go to England, you know,

1670
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,000
Speaker 1: you go to a driven grouse shoot on August twelve,

1671
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:21,320
Speaker 1: the glorious twelve, and you pile up dirty grouse. You know,

1672
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:23,479
Speaker 1: they end up in the pub that night in the

1673
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:26,640
Speaker 1: local village being served as dinner, you know, in the

1674
01:34:26,720 --> 01:34:28,880
Speaker 1: hunter or the you know, the shooters in the butt

1675
01:34:29,000 --> 01:34:30,840
Speaker 1: you know sits there and takes home a couple of

1676
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:35,439
Speaker 1: growse ceremonially. But for the most part they allow a

1677
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,679
Speaker 1: private market and game meat and that works well. Yeah, yeah.

1678
01:34:39,920 --> 01:34:43,240
Speaker 1: And I think even in uh Shane Mahoney and Dr

1679
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:45,840
Speaker 1: Player Skies, they have a book they released last year

1680
01:34:46,280 --> 01:34:48,800
Speaker 1: on the model and and they identify some of the

1681
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:52,240
Speaker 1: issues with it for it into the future. Um and

1682
01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:54,800
Speaker 1: I think this is that's certainly something to talk about

1683
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:57,360
Speaker 1: because it is like on a on a micro scale,

1684
01:34:57,400 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 1: makes a whole lot of sense. It would be it

1685
01:34:59,240 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 1: would be hard to situed on on a larger scale.

1686
01:35:02,240 --> 01:35:04,120
Speaker 1: But that's why we have state game agencies running the

1687
01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:06,040
Speaker 1: show in a lot of ways where you can manage

1688
01:35:06,040 --> 01:35:09,880
Speaker 1: it that way. Um. So yeah, it's it's interesting, But

1689
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:12,040
Speaker 1: I do I say people should return to your advice

1690
01:35:12,080 --> 01:35:16,040
Speaker 1: there too, as we there's no I think the human

1691
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:20,599
Speaker 1: mind is is very capable of producing its own bullshit reasoning.

1692
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 1: Uh and it compounds right as soon as you as

1693
01:35:23,439 --> 01:35:25,719
Speaker 1: soon as you're unwilling to strip away your own bullshit,

1694
01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 1: then you're then you're lost. You just can pound your

1695
01:35:29,160 --> 01:35:31,840
Speaker 1: you compound your bullshit reasoning until you're so married to

1696
01:35:32,000 --> 01:35:35,200
Speaker 1: it that you're just full of ship every day. Well,

1697
01:35:35,360 --> 01:35:37,519
Speaker 1: it's good to acknowledge that about yourself. You know. It's

1698
01:35:37,520 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 1: like the Cousin Vinny line, you know, the movie Cousin Vine. Yeah,

1699
01:35:40,600 --> 01:35:45,000
Speaker 1: cousin Vinny's opening line of defensive everything that guy just

1700
01:35:45,080 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 1: said is bullshit. You know, you know, thank you, thank you.

1701
01:35:50,280 --> 01:35:51,920
Speaker 1: That's yeah. That's one of the things that we that

1702
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:55,400
Speaker 1: I think is is key to getting into these complex

1703
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:58,479
Speaker 1: issues is you've got to peel away everything that that

1704
01:35:58,640 --> 01:36:01,720
Speaker 1: you believe almost repeatedly every time you get into a

1705
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:05,720
Speaker 1: new complex situation, and acknowledge that you, yourself are are

1706
01:36:05,840 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 1: potentially fallible. You know, I could have most of this wrong. Um,

1707
01:36:11,160 --> 01:36:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't think I do, because you know, I thought

1708
01:36:13,160 --> 01:36:14,760
Speaker 1: about it a lot. I don't think you're wrong on

1709
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:17,280
Speaker 1: a lot of things that you're articulating yourself. And so

1710
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:21,720
Speaker 1: back to the contest in this group in California, you know,

1711
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 1: they really there's a burden of proof that they you know,

1712
01:36:26,760 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 1: they bear a burden of proof. And to me, just

1713
01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:32,639
Speaker 1: from the sounds of it, uh, I do not think

1714
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:37,640
Speaker 1: that they have across a threshold there yet where what

1715
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 1: they're offering is compelling enough to you know, to think about. Yeah,

1716
01:36:43,400 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 1: and we said this, uh last episode, I think it

1717
01:36:46,439 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: was with Pat Derrick, and it's something I've been thinking

1718
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 1: about a lot. We we have our our North American

1719
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:52,280
Speaker 1: model of wiles like conservation, and then you have kind

1720
01:36:52,280 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 1: of like the animal rights philosophy that sits as an

1721
01:36:56,520 --> 01:36:59,680
Speaker 1: opposition I've been calling for. I'd like someone in the

1722
01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:02,960
Speaker 1: animal rights community to build a model the conservation off

1723
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 1: that ideology, off the animal rights ethicists like the animal

1724
01:37:07,280 --> 01:37:10,240
Speaker 1: the humane treatment of animals ideology. How do we manage them?

1725
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:12,800
Speaker 1: How do we manage them and not kill them? How

1726
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:16,519
Speaker 1: do we manage them and not perpetuate victimization? And just

1727
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:18,519
Speaker 1: using some of their hyperbole and some of their their

1728
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,559
Speaker 1: speech here, how do we do it? Make me a model?

1729
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:23,960
Speaker 1: It can be. It's gonna be a very future future

1730
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:27,160
Speaker 1: looking model, forward looking model. Um it would it would

1731
01:37:27,200 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: have to be just by the way that it would

1732
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: be um sussed out. But that's one thing I would

1733
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 1: love to see. So we can at least compare the

1734
01:37:33,920 --> 01:37:36,799
Speaker 1: two and say, like, don't just tell me that because

1735
01:37:37,040 --> 01:37:39,400
Speaker 1: hunters give a bunch of money to state game agencies

1736
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:42,320
Speaker 1: that they're beholding us, tell me what your alternative to

1737
01:37:42,400 --> 01:37:44,799
Speaker 1: that is, uh, and then we can have a conversation

1738
01:37:44,840 --> 01:37:47,120
Speaker 1: from there. At least it's a logical back and forth

1739
01:37:47,280 --> 01:37:50,559
Speaker 1: rather than all this all this hyperbole and chest pounding

1740
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:57,000
Speaker 1: that's where you think we'll ever get that breath, not

1741
01:37:57,120 --> 01:38:02,080
Speaker 1: hold my breath and Montana I as you're talking, I'm

1742
01:38:02,080 --> 01:38:05,720
Speaker 1: thinking of Gary Varner is an environmental ethicis Texas, A

1743
01:38:05,800 --> 01:38:09,200
Speaker 1: and M I believe in. You know, he uses this

1744
01:38:09,400 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 1: term therapeutic hunting, and it's basically for sort of case

1745
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:17,840
Speaker 1: selected species that you know over exceed their carrying capacity.

1746
01:38:17,960 --> 01:38:21,640
Speaker 1: So you know, he's sympathetic. I think to sort of

1747
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: a welfare perspective that may be as far as you'll

1748
01:38:25,280 --> 01:38:28,400
Speaker 1: get somebody from the animal welfare not that he is

1749
01:38:28,760 --> 01:38:32,600
Speaker 1: animal welfare, but trying to craft an argument, you know,

1750
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:36,679
Speaker 1: because I think there is an understanding among animal welfare

1751
01:38:37,000 --> 01:38:40,719
Speaker 1: slash animal rights activists that you can't have a problem

1752
01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 1: with an over abundant species like dear who over the

1753
01:38:43,439 --> 01:38:46,200
Speaker 1: winter starved to death, and all else being equal, we'd

1754
01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:50,479
Speaker 1: like to avoid that. Um. Now a lot of them

1755
01:38:50,520 --> 01:38:54,200
Speaker 1: will jump on you know, wild a fertility control as

1756
01:38:54,240 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 1: their silver bullet. Um. Most dear managers are going to

1757
01:38:58,439 --> 01:39:02,599
Speaker 1: say no, some sort of therapeutic a hunting, uh will

1758
01:39:02,680 --> 01:39:07,160
Speaker 1: probably be more effective, more efficient, cost less. Yeah, but

1759
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:11,799
Speaker 1: I don't know that you'll ever get a tolerant position

1760
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:18,320
Speaker 1: that allows people to run beagles on rabbits or you know,

1761
01:39:19,200 --> 01:39:22,920
Speaker 1: chase grouse with their setters or their German short air pointers.

1762
01:39:23,120 --> 01:39:26,880
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there will always be disapproval of

1763
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, elective hunting that's done just for fun. Yeah.

1764
01:39:33,080 --> 01:39:35,640
Speaker 1: I've had Dr Larry Skistan here before and he said that,

1765
01:39:36,640 --> 01:39:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, intell he used the term intelligent intervention. His

1766
01:39:39,600 --> 01:39:42,200
Speaker 1: first guest appearance on the show was he was very

1767
01:39:42,280 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 1: anti wolf, anti predator um in the way he wanted

1768
01:39:45,560 --> 01:39:48,360
Speaker 1: just you know, he vilified him in the way that

1769
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:52,439
Speaker 1: they using terms like predator pits and all that. And

1770
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 1: he came on the right, and he came on the

1771
01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:55,920
Speaker 1: next time. He didn't reverse course, but he kind of

1772
01:39:55,960 --> 01:39:59,439
Speaker 1: expanded on his on his opinion, and then he started

1773
01:39:59,479 --> 01:40:02,040
Speaker 1: talking about in intelligent intervention and kind of the nuances

1774
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:03,760
Speaker 1: of how we do that. And that's a term that

1775
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,160
Speaker 1: always struck me as Yeah, man, I can like, I

1776
01:40:06,240 --> 01:40:08,599
Speaker 1: think that's a good articulation of a very hard thing

1777
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:12,960
Speaker 1: to nail down. This intelligent intervention. Now, how we do

1778
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 1: that is interesting, Like you brought up with some you know,

1779
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 1: some spay and neutering our deer, but that's that is

1780
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:23,040
Speaker 1: it's it's just like a philosophy. I think that is

1781
01:40:23,600 --> 01:40:26,920
Speaker 1: one part of the intelligence is thinking about context. You know,

1782
01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:30,840
Speaker 1: different critters will demand different kinds of management. We're going

1783
01:40:30,920 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 1: to manage a wolf different differently than deer, or differently

1784
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 1: than grouse or rabbits um. That's just the way it is.

1785
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:41,320
Speaker 1: So there's not a one size fits all kind of

1786
01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 1: formula for how to how to manage wallet. That's that's

1787
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:49,599
Speaker 1: for sure. Well, Jim, thank you as always, as always,

1788
01:40:49,960 --> 01:40:51,640
Speaker 1: it's great man, it's great fun to talk to you.

1789
01:40:51,680 --> 01:40:56,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate your perspective and um, I appreciate you helping

1790
01:40:56,200 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 1: helping us answer questions that may not have an answer.

1791
01:40:58,800 --> 01:41:05,719
Speaker 1: So go on spot of by Tom Rush for owls hell, yeah, yourself,

1792
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,880
Speaker 1: get yourself some kyles. Listen to it this afternoon. You'll

1793
01:41:08,920 --> 01:41:11,280
Speaker 1: love it. We might we might be able to get

1794
01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:12,800
Speaker 1: that and play a little bit for you here later

1795
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:17,240
Speaker 1: to the show. I'll see if I can get Tom's email,

1796
01:41:17,360 --> 01:41:20,559
Speaker 1: get permission Jackson, do you and Jackson Hall? He may

1797
01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:22,760
Speaker 1: play it for you live. Yeah, I may drive down

1798
01:41:22,840 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 1: there there you go, all right, there's a lot of Yeah,

1799
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:26,519
Speaker 1: there's a lot of animal rights actives down there we

1800
01:41:26,520 --> 01:41:29,760
Speaker 1: could talk to about the subject a lot of them,

1801
01:41:30,240 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 1: a lot of them. All right, thanks so much, man,

1802
01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:44,160
Speaker 1: all right, sure, thank ye alright, that's it. That's all

1803
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:48,320
Speaker 1: another episode in the books. Thank you to our buddy

1804
01:41:48,400 --> 01:41:53,120
Speaker 1: Dr James Tantillo from Cornell as always for coming in

1805
01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:55,160
Speaker 1: and help us break down some of the more important issues,

1806
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:58,680
Speaker 1: complex issues in our space. Thank you to the man

1807
01:41:58,760 --> 01:42:01,880
Speaker 1: still joining me now, Brian in Uh, you're way better

1808
01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:03,840
Speaker 1: than Phil. I'm not gonna do. He won't listen to this,

1809
01:42:04,080 --> 01:42:07,720
Speaker 1: but you've you've made him look silly. I mean, he

1810
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:11,720
Speaker 1: his contributions are null and void based on what you've

1811
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 1: brought here today. So thank you, thank you for telling us.

1812
01:42:14,920 --> 01:42:18,080
Speaker 1: Thank you. Phil could help us hook this thing up.

1813
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 1: I'm still confused on how to make this microphone work.

1814
01:42:21,240 --> 01:42:23,040
Speaker 1: That's true. He does that value. But we're gonna take

1815
01:42:23,080 --> 01:42:25,720
Speaker 1: We're gonna take Phil Hunt. And actually next week we're

1816
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:27,800
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna build. We're building a whole series of

1817
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:30,800
Speaker 1: podcasts to teach Phil to hunt. Uh. And this the

1818
01:42:30,800 --> 01:42:32,280
Speaker 1: first week in May this year, he's gonna go in

1819
01:42:32,320 --> 01:42:33,880
Speaker 1: his first ever hunt. He's gonna get his hands on

1820
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:36,920
Speaker 1: the shotgun for really the first time in any in

1821
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:39,439
Speaker 1: a real setting. And he's gonna learn. So we're gonna

1822
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,800
Speaker 1: take our audience on that journey with Philly Engineer, our

1823
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 1: proxy non hunter, and we're gonna turn him into were

1824
01:42:45,560 --> 01:42:48,439
Speaker 1: reluctantly turn him into a hunter because I've enjoyed my

1825
01:42:48,600 --> 01:42:51,280
Speaker 1: time with him not knowing anything about hunting, and we

1826
01:42:51,360 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 1: have a comment on everything we talked about from a

1827
01:42:54,479 --> 01:42:58,559
Speaker 1: non hunter standpoint. I know now we're gonna turn him

1828
01:42:58,600 --> 01:43:00,160
Speaker 1: into a hunter, and we're gonna have to find a

1829
01:43:00,200 --> 01:43:03,679
Speaker 1: new non hunter to bring onto the show for that perspective, Colt,

1830
01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:06,760
Speaker 1: the cult is getting stronger. It is really, it really

1831
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:09,000
Speaker 1: is a strong cult that we have here. Um, we

1832
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,080
Speaker 1: don't ever since we started using the cult language, we

1833
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:15,080
Speaker 1: have less sponsors. I don't know what it is, man,

1834
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:18,160
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. I think I think it's

1835
01:43:18,160 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: Trump in the liberal media. You might, you might open

1836
01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:24,360
Speaker 1: up a new revenue stream and a new audience. So

1837
01:43:25,240 --> 01:43:27,599
Speaker 1: it's true. I'll probably write a book. I'll probably write

1838
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:29,080
Speaker 1: a book. I'll come out with some sort of pill

1839
01:43:29,160 --> 01:43:35,280
Speaker 1: you have to take to be a leader. Yeah, yep,

1840
01:43:35,439 --> 01:43:38,080
Speaker 1: six months as a cult leader by Benner Bran what

1841
01:43:38,200 --> 01:43:40,640
Speaker 1: I learned. Yeah, just like when Andrew Cuomo wrote a

1842
01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:43,200
Speaker 1: book about how to manage the pandemic about four months

1843
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 1: into it, celebrating how awesome he was that that's what

1844
01:43:47,240 --> 01:43:50,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. I'm gonna say, uh, four months as

1845
01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 1: a cult leader by Ben and Brod, what I've learned, really,

1846
01:43:52,120 --> 01:43:53,720
Speaker 1: what I've learned, and how awesome I am at it.

1847
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:57,439
Speaker 1: But anyway, you're if you have it, if you if

1848
01:43:57,479 --> 01:43:59,400
Speaker 1: you received an email from me and you're on our

1849
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 1: leadership board, uh great, if you haven't, next week we're

1850
01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:05,040
Speaker 1: gonna give you details on how to find these pages

1851
01:44:05,080 --> 01:44:07,080
Speaker 1: and be a part of these groups and mentor new

1852
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:10,599
Speaker 1: hunters or be a mentee yourself. Um, and we're gonna

1853
01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:13,960
Speaker 1: keep on growing this thing even though, Uh, I'm a

1854
01:44:14,000 --> 01:44:17,320
Speaker 1: little scared, but Brian, you've given me, You give me

1855
01:44:17,320 --> 01:44:19,320
Speaker 1: a little hope. You know how I am. I'm a

1856
01:44:19,560 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, this is just how it goes. Yeah, band

1857
01:44:23,000 --> 01:44:25,599
Speaker 1: with the little hope is scary though, but I'll look

1858
01:44:25,640 --> 01:44:28,879
Speaker 1: forward to see what happens. All right, Well, you're officially

1859
01:44:28,920 --> 01:44:32,960
Speaker 1: part of it, so you can do now. All right, guys,

1860
01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:34,800
Speaker 1: well we have we're gonna leave you with at least

1861
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:36,559
Speaker 1: we're gonna play a little bit of as much as

1862
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:40,600
Speaker 1: legally possible Tom Rush's song. It's called a Coyote a

1863
01:44:40,680 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: Cowboys pe in, and it's about shooting coyotes. As we

1864
01:44:45,040 --> 01:44:47,240
Speaker 1: heard from Dr James Tantillo, he turned me onto this

1865
01:44:47,280 --> 01:44:49,879
Speaker 1: song and it's about shooting kyotes and about kyote contests.

1866
01:44:50,160 --> 01:44:52,559
Speaker 1: And the fact that we found a song about kyo

1867
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:57,160
Speaker 1: contests is interesting, alarming. We'll see, we'll see if you

1868
01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:59,360
Speaker 1: like it. We're gonna play it as we get get out,

1869
01:44:59,400 --> 01:45:01,519
Speaker 1: and we'll see an next episode where we teach Phill

1870
01:45:01,560 --> 01:45:04,519
Speaker 1: the engineer, all about turkeys. It's gonna be fun. We'll

1871
01:45:04,520 --> 01:45:08,120
Speaker 1: see you then say bye, Brian Lynn, see you everybody,

1872
01:45:08,200 --> 01:45:12,439
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thanks man. I'm going out and shoot yourself.

1873
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 1: Some kay makes a man feel good. Lord, It makes

1874
01:45:17,360 --> 01:45:22,360
Speaker 1: a man feel proud going out and shoot yourself. Some

1875
01:45:22,640 --> 01:45:27,000
Speaker 1: cans one for mother, one for country, one for God.

1876
01:45:28,600 --> 01:45:31,439
Speaker 1: If you're having trouble with the truck, or with the woman,

1877
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:37,400
Speaker 1: or maybe them kids are screwing up in school, if

1878
01:45:37,479 --> 01:45:41,920
Speaker 1: the cows are acting smarter than the cowboy, you gotta

1879
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:44,640
Speaker 1: show the world you ain't nobody's school. How are you

1880
01:45:44,680 --> 01:45:48,040
Speaker 1: going to do that? We'll go on out and shoot yourself.

1881
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:53,280
Speaker 1: Some cal makes a man feel good, Lord makes a man,

1882
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Speaker 1: feel proud going out shoot yourself. What