Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show,
Speaker 1: you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when
Speaker 1: life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with
Speaker 1: Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out
Speaker 1: January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions
Speaker 1: we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on
Speaker 1: to when life shifts, what do we let go of?
Speaker 1: And how do we find meaning on the other side.
Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you
Speaker 1: haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience.
Speaker 1: My hope is that it gives you the tools you
Speaker 1: need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a
Speaker 1: greater sense of possibility about who you can become on
Speaker 1: the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and
Speaker 1: pre order now at the link in the show notes
Speaker 1: or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with
Speaker 1: Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to
Speaker 1: get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which
Speaker 1: will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to
Speaker 1: a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You
Speaker 1: can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com slash join.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay,
Speaker 1: now onto Malala.
Speaker 2: I was in coma when I was seeing the world
Speaker 2: define me or somehow now the bravest girl and the
Speaker 2: most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like, what do you
Speaker 2: know about being brave and being courageous? And what do
Speaker 2: you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1: When Malala Usufsi enters a room, she usually doesn't need
Speaker 1: an introduction. Most people know her story, or at least
Speaker 1: they think they do. They might know that years ago
Speaker 1: she was shot in the face when she was still
Speaker 1: a schoolgirl in Pakistan, or perhaps they know that she's
Speaker 1: the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. For
Speaker 1: those of you who know of Malala but are fuzzy
Speaker 1: on the details of her story, let me give you
Speaker 1: a bit of context. Malala became an activist for girls'
Speaker 1: education in her home country of Pakistan when she was
Speaker 1: just eleven years old, blogging and speaking out against the
Speaker 1: Thaliban band on girls attending school. In twenty twelve, when
Speaker 1: she was fifteen, she was shot in the face by
Speaker 1: Thaliban gunman who boarded her school bus after the attempted assassination.
Speaker 1: She was immediately flown to a hospital in the UK,
Speaker 1: where she spent a week in a coma and underwent
Speaker 1: multiple operations. During this time, and unbeknownst to her, she
Speaker 1: became a global icon. Malala is twenty eight now. She's
Speaker 1: written a new memoir called Finding My Way, which shows
Speaker 1: her menes sides that I had not considered as someone
Speaker 1: who has admired her from Afar. Malala the shy schoolgirl,
Speaker 1: the mischievous college student, the trauma survivor, and the newly
Speaker 1: married woman who continues to grapple with societal norms like
Speaker 1: marriage and having children. Malala is an expert on something
Speaker 1: very relevant to Slight Change listeners, the tension that exists
Speaker 1: between the different versions of ourselves that we carry, who
Speaker 1: the world expects us to be, who our families raised
Speaker 1: us to be, and who we're still in the process
Speaker 1: of becoming. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,
Speaker 1: and this is a slight Change of plans, a show
Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the
Speaker 1: face of a big change. I must say there have
Speaker 1: been a few pinch me moments in my life and
Speaker 1: today I guess one of those pinchy moments. And I
Speaker 1: always feel gratitude that I get to do the show
Speaker 1: that sometimes it reaches an extraordinary level.
Speaker 3: That means so much to me.
Speaker 2: And you're doing an amazing podcast and you are speaking
Speaker 2: to incredible people. And I loved the name of the podcast,
Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans, because this is what my
Speaker 2: life has been like. I have been changing my plans
Speaker 2: the whole time, so I thought, Wow, this is the
Speaker 2: show I need to be on.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear that. I'm curious to know, Malala,
Speaker 1: how long after you woke up from your coma did
Speaker 1: it register that people all around the world were rallying
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: This is that time of my life, which I am
Speaker 2: still trying to process. I woke up in a hospital
Speaker 2: in Birmingham in the UK. I was seeing nurses and
Speaker 2: doctors speaking in English. I had to bring these pieces
Speaker 2: of my my memories and flashbacks together to figure out
Speaker 2: what had happened. I knew that I was attacked. I
Speaker 2: knew something bad had happened, but I did not know
Speaker 2: where my family was, who had brought me here, if
Speaker 2: anybody even had heard my story or not I was
Speaker 2: very focused on my physical recovery. I had to go
Speaker 2: through multiple more surgeries for my facial nerve recovery for
Speaker 2: my hearing, and they had removed a piece of my skull,
Speaker 2: which is really hard to explain to people, because the
Speaker 2: brain was technically swelling because of the shooting, and so
Speaker 2: they replaced this part of that skull with a titanium plate.
Speaker 2: And I just could not believe when somebody at the
Speaker 2: hospital showed me photos and videos of people holding play
Speaker 2: cards of I Am Malala, We Stand with Malala, and
Speaker 2: they were just boring their support for the cause of girls' education.
Speaker 2: And one day one of the staff members brought in
Speaker 2: a basket of cars and notes and letters and I
Speaker 2: was like, wow, like, so some people have even written
Speaker 2: to me. And that's when the hospital staff member told
Speaker 2: me that yes, there are like many more boxes like this,
Speaker 2: and you have received thousands and thousands of letters. The
Speaker 2: support of people was everything to me because that gave
Speaker 2: me the courage to know that I was not alone
Speaker 2: in my fight for girls education.
Speaker 1: Did you ever feel amounting pressure within yourself that came
Speaker 1: along with all of these people who are now following
Speaker 1: you and supporting you. But also saw you as this
Speaker 1: heroic symbol.
Speaker 2: There was a lot of pressure because of the sudden
Speaker 2: attention that I received, and I became a girl's education activist.
Speaker 3: And this is what I wanted to do.
Speaker 2: But I think more than it being people's pressure on me,
Speaker 2: it was my own pressure on myself. I felt a
Speaker 2: sense of responsibility that I am now so lucky that
Speaker 2: I have the right to be in a school in
Speaker 2: the UK and be a normal student, and people are
Speaker 2: listening to my story, so I want to use it
Speaker 2: to advocate for other girls around the world. I started
Speaker 2: my nonprofit, Malana Fund, and while I was still a
Speaker 2: student in school, I was doing all of this work.
Speaker 3: But I think in the middle of.
Speaker 2: All of this, I forgot to be myself, forgot to
Speaker 2: be that normal person. I was in Pakistan who had friends,
Speaker 2: who was joyful, mischievous sometimes, and I was looking for
Speaker 2: that part of me. I was in Coma when I
Speaker 2: was seeing the world define me. I was somehow now
Speaker 2: the bravest girl and the most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like,
Speaker 2: what do you know about being brave and being courageous
Speaker 2: and what do you know about being an activist?
Speaker 1: When you were seventeen Malala in high school, as though
Speaker 1: the hero narrative was not pervasive enough. You were awarded
Speaker 1: the Nobel Peace Prize. And I can imagine that this
Speaker 1: is a double edged sword kind of award because on
Speaker 1: the one hand, it is such a boon for your
Speaker 1: advocacy work, right it's shining one of the biggest spotlights
Speaker 1: in the world on the causes you care most about.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, what a weight to be placed
Speaker 1: on a seventeen year old who's still figuring out or
Speaker 1: maybe hasn't even had time to do the normal exploration
Speaker 1: of adolescence. So how did you did you feel that weight?
Speaker 1: Did you feel pressure or anxiety around the receiving of
Speaker 1: the award because of all that it might entail.
Speaker 2: I don't think the Nobel Peace Prize changed things that much,
Speaker 2: because already I was at this stage where I was
Speaker 2: receiving so many recognitions and awards that I had already
Speaker 2: put this responsibility on myself that now you are somehow
Speaker 2: in the list of all of these great activists in
Speaker 2: the world. So you have to figure it all out.
Speaker 2: You need to be able to fix all of these
Speaker 2: problems that girls face. I thought, like all of the
Speaker 2: activists we have heard of in history. They had the
Speaker 2: magic power and they could like change everything in a day.
Speaker 2: Because when you were a kid, that's how you learn
Speaker 2: about heroes. So I was still like fifteen sixteen, This
Speaker 2: is how I understood it. I said, Okay, like, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe once I finished school or something like somehow like
Speaker 2: we'll crack the code and we'll suddenly put all girls
Speaker 2: in school.
Speaker 1: One thing that was so striking to me and reading
Speaker 1: your memoir is that it showed me how it showed
Speaker 1: me an illusion that I had fallen prey to, which
Speaker 1: is I really had painted you as a one dimensional hero.
Speaker 1: I think it's very easy as humans to assign holier
Speaker 1: than Thou status to other human beings, right, because when
Speaker 1: I read about your bravery as a young child, I think, oh,
Speaker 1: she's just a different type of person. She falls into
Speaker 1: a different category of human that is inaccessible to me.
Speaker 1: And one gift I feel your memoir gives all of
Speaker 1: its readers is it bridges the gap between someone like
Speaker 1: me and someone like you. You reveal that you were
Speaker 1: actually just a young girl behind this hero venir. And
Speaker 1: so one question I have for you is, given the
Speaker 1: way the world was portraying you in the media, right,
Speaker 1: Malala the hero. Did you ever feel that you had
Speaker 1: to distort who you were in order to fit that mold.
Speaker 3: Short answer, yes, I think.
Speaker 2: I thought that there is now this defined version of
Speaker 2: me out there and I have to live up to that.
Speaker 2: And for me, that meant that I could not expect
Speaker 2: to have a normal life.
Speaker 3: And I thought it was okay, like not to have
Speaker 3: friends in school.
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, maybe in university as well, that's
Speaker 2: what life is supposed to be. Like. You just go
Speaker 2: and get the top grades and you just move on
Speaker 2: to the busy life that you have where you are
Speaker 2: at conferences and events and giving speeches. But you can
Speaker 2: never really be with people your age. You can never
Speaker 2: see boys and girls, you could never be in parties,
Speaker 2: you could never like just be silly. I just thought
Speaker 2: that that's how maybe it's supposed to be for me.
Speaker 2: But I knew that it was not healthy and I
Speaker 2: could not continue with that. And I realized that when
Speaker 2: I went to university, because they were just moments when
Speaker 2: I felt more like myself and I was like, I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm a free soul here. Yeah, And it
Speaker 2: was the first time that I felt like nobody was
Speaker 2: watching me. I was, you know, away from my parents,
Speaker 2: I was away from my work people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was just me in a new place.
Speaker 2: And my neighbors were my college friends, and of course
Speaker 2: I had security behind me, but you know, they told
Speaker 2: me to ignore them, so I kept ignoring them.
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, like, maybe just for a.
Speaker 2: Bit, if I experienced these things where I feel like
Speaker 2: nobody's judging me and nobody's watching me, I just want
Speaker 2: to know what it feels like.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I was doing things like you know, staying up
Speaker 2: late at night, and I went to a club with
Speaker 2: my friends for the first time, which was like you know,
Speaker 2: our college sort of club night, and I climbed the rooftop,
Speaker 2: which was not allowed, which was a very risky thing.
Speaker 2: And it is such an adventure to be, you know,
Speaker 2: that mischievous student, that rebellious student to go up there
Speaker 2: to see how like not many friends were actually willing
Speaker 2: to do it, just to know that this is a
Speaker 2: thriller experience only some want to have. And I am
Speaker 2: in here, like I am on the rooftop of this
Speaker 2: college at midnight, and I can see the college security
Speaker 2: walking down there, and I'm like they can catch us
Speaker 2: any moment, and I could be in trouble forever.
Speaker 3: But I love those moments.
Speaker 2: And I remember just sitting there on the college rooftop,
Speaker 2: breathing in the air and taking it in and just
Speaker 2: to know that I sort of owned the world. And
Speaker 2: I will never forget those moments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's easy to forget that while you
Speaker 1: were advocating for girls worldwide, right, you were this adolescence
Speaker 1: who was coming into her own and discovering who she was.
Speaker 1: What was it like to explore that side of yourself? Right,
Speaker 1: Because it almost seems like you were never given the
Speaker 1: luxury of time to process not only what you had
Speaker 1: been through, the traumatic experience you'd been through, but to
Speaker 1: actually engage in self reflection about the kind of person
Speaker 1: that you were and the kind of person you wanted
Speaker 1: to be. And in addition to not having the luxury
Speaker 1: of time, you were being given instruction manuals from society,
Speaker 1: from probably your parents, from your culture about who you
Speaker 1: ought to be. Right, And so, from what I could
Speaker 1: tell from your memoir, college was the first time when
Speaker 1: you got to take a step back and really ask yourself,
Speaker 1: who am I and who do I Malala want to
Speaker 1: be without any of that societal pressure.
Speaker 2: And I didn't have any immediate answer to that question.
Speaker 2: But for me, it was accepting the fact that in
Speaker 2: this college I will have experiences that will help me
Speaker 2: find out.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I remember on the college opening week, I was signing
Speaker 2: up for everything, different societies like the South Asia Society
Speaker 2: and Islamic Society, and I was like, you know, I
Speaker 2: want to play cricket, I want to play badminton, I
Speaker 2: want to roll, want to be in this club, I
Speaker 2: want to listen to this debate.
Speaker 3: I want to hang out with my friends.
Speaker 2: All the time, I was wondering how I'm going to
Speaker 2: study at the same time, but I had little time
Speaker 2: neft for that. But I wanted to explore things, and
Speaker 2: you will. You only know more about yourself.
Speaker 3: When you have more experiences.
Speaker 2: It's just it's just not possible for you to just
Speaker 2: sit down and like do it all in imagination. Yeah. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: it was a blessing to be there and to get
Speaker 2: this opportunity to have these amazing experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you write about in your
Speaker 1: book that I feel was so wonderfully candid and honest
Speaker 1: and help to bridge the gap that I felt between
Speaker 1: me and you prior to reading is you open up
Speaker 1: about being self conscious about your face after the shooting
Speaker 1: because the facial nerve was damaged, right, so your left
Speaker 1: eye was drooped, your mouth only moved on one side
Speaker 1: when you smiled. You developed some mechanisms to try to
Speaker 1: conceal the extent to the facial injuries. Right, you cover
Speaker 1: your mouth every time you smiled. And people were very
Speaker 1: cruel online about the facial paralysis. And I appreciate your
Speaker 1: being forthcoming about this because I think it's a very
Speaker 1: brave thing to do. I think it's very easy to
Speaker 1: dismiss views about one's appearance as simply, you know, trivial
Speaker 1: and silly. And there's a quote from your book that
Speaker 1: I would love to read. No matter how much confidence
Speaker 1: I projected on stage and in speeches, I felt too
Speaker 1: ugly to love. It was a harsh truth and one
Speaker 1: I hated admitting to myself because it felt so vain
Speaker 1: and trivial. And then later you go on to say
Speaker 1: you don't need to be attractive to be an activist.
Speaker 1: I told myself, tell me more about that. What a
Speaker 1: confession for you to make. I'm so proud of you
Speaker 1: for saying something like that.
Speaker 2: I had to be honest in sharing more about my
Speaker 2: insecurities because you know, I wanted to be fully myself
Speaker 2: in this book. And as much as I tried to
Speaker 2: keep myself as this strong, brave girl, you know, if
Speaker 2: I was alone in my room, there was this moment
Speaker 2: when I thought, okay, like can I be loved? Can
Speaker 2: I love myself? Those moments were really heartbreaking. In college,
Speaker 2: you know, it was the first time that I was
Speaker 2: seeing boys my age.
Speaker 3: Before that, I was in an all girls.
Speaker 2: School and even in the events and conferences that I
Speaker 2: would go to, it was all like men a lot older.
Speaker 2: So I had never really seen boys my age, and
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, just for a second, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh can I Can I be loved? Can
Speaker 2: I be in love? And I was convincing myself like no,
Speaker 2: this can never be your life. So I've just told myself, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm never going to get married, work on me, just
Speaker 2: give up on it. So I was like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: can cry quietly and when I'm alone, but outside I'm
Speaker 2: going to stay strong. So in college there was this guy,
Speaker 2: this mysterious guy. He was just really handsome, and I
Speaker 2: saw him sitting on a bench and.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, you know, what is he doing?
Speaker 3: What is he a doul?
Speaker 2: Shall I go and talk to him? He became like
Speaker 2: my first college crush. He in the end ghosted me.
Speaker 2: He disappeared, But in those moments, even just for like
Speaker 2: a bit, I thought, wow, Like, even if it's one sided,
Speaker 2: this is what love feels like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, while you were in college, you know, you were
Speaker 1: having this very rich, dynamic life socially, but there was
Speaker 1: a secret that you were holding within, which was your
Speaker 1: brain was grappling with this past trauma of yours. Right,
Speaker 1: And it occurs to me that you never had time
Speaker 1: to process what had actually happened to you. I think
Speaker 1: coming from a South Asian background and mental health is
Speaker 1: not really discussed. The idea of therapy is like, what,
Speaker 1: why would you see a therapist tell me about that
Speaker 1: experience in which you had your first panic attack and
Speaker 1: what that was like, and had you maybe thought, oh,
Speaker 1: that's something from my past. I can just sort of
Speaker 1: put it away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought I had fully recovered. I got shot
Speaker 2: at age fifteen. For me, everything was about healing from
Speaker 2: that bullet, and I never thought that seven years later,
Speaker 2: I would be getting flashbacks about the incident. You know,
Speaker 2: I had moved on. I was in college now, and
Speaker 2: I had this experience in college that triggered and like
Speaker 2: I felt like it just like reopened that whole chapter again.
Speaker 2: So I was with some friends and they were trying bong.
Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, Like I've never seen wong,
Speaker 2: what is this? So I took one puff and I
Speaker 2: coughed on the second attempt. When I inhaled it, I
Speaker 2: felt like it just immediately went inside my body, and
Speaker 2: that was the turning point.
Speaker 3: After that, it just froze.
Speaker 2: I thought I could not move anymore, and I started
Speaker 2: getting those flashbacks from the attack where I thought the
Speaker 2: gunmen were still around me, and I thought I was dead,
Speaker 2: or I might have just been killed, or something had happened.
Speaker 3: All of these thoughts were just going.
Speaker 2: On in my mind, and it was truly truly traumatic experience.
Speaker 2: I just could not process time anymore. I could hear
Speaker 2: my heart beat, I was sweating, I was shaking, I
Speaker 2: was shivering. My mind was into the spiral of thoughts
Speaker 2: of like, am I gonna die?
Speaker 3: Am I dead? What happened? Was I alive?
Speaker 2: Where am I these kind of things and it was
Speaker 2: really really scary, to be honest, like scared yester night
Speaker 2: I have ever experienced, and I don't know how I
Speaker 2: made it through it. But the next day, like I realized,
Speaker 2: I'm not the same person anymore. Things have changed now
Speaker 2: and after that I have had many more like panic attacks, flashbacks,
Speaker 2: this trauma, and I felt really frustrated that it just
Speaker 2: opened this whole chapter for me. Like I thought I
Speaker 2: would never need this whole mental health support and who
Speaker 2: want to see a therapist?
Speaker 3: I thought, I'm so strong, I am like so brave
Speaker 3: and courageous. Those things are not for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I survived an attack, what could break me down?
Speaker 2: A small thing like a bomb experience that could break
Speaker 2: me down. So for weeks then months ahead, I tried
Speaker 2: to cope with it. My friends were everything to me
Speaker 2: in that time. They couldn't help me exactly, but they
Speaker 2: were showing that they were there for me. So one
Speaker 2: time and I just couldn't sleep after that. Then they
Speaker 2: said let's do a sleepover. And that was the first
Speaker 2: time when I was able to sleep because my friends
Speaker 2: just showed up and said, you know what, We're gonna
Speaker 2: be here with you tonight.
Speaker 1: It's very touching.
Speaker 2: And then eventually, like a few months later, I was
Speaker 2: like in my final year off university then, and I
Speaker 2: was like so overwhelmed with everything that was happening, and
Speaker 2: I had like another major panic attack where I just
Speaker 2: could not connect with my body.
Speaker 3: And that's when.
Speaker 2: I remembered my friend had told me about a therapist,
Speaker 2: and she told me that I should see a therapist,
Speaker 2: and she told me that it is actually quite common
Speaker 2: for students here to see therapists.
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, I think now is the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, Like after some point, I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: I think I have to go and see what this
Speaker 2: therapist has got for me. And in our first session,
Speaker 2: I was like, here's everything about me, take it all
Speaker 2: in and give me the meda and fix this problem.
Speaker 2: That's when I realized that therapy is not like that.
Speaker 3: It's a process.
Speaker 2: It takes time, and now it is a part of
Speaker 2: my life. I am so grateful that I found my
Speaker 2: way through it, and I had to accept. I had
Speaker 2: to accept that I will never be the same old person.
Speaker 2: This has been part of my emotional growth as well.
Speaker 2: I had these happy and incredible days in college but
Speaker 2: at the same time I had like the straw and
Speaker 2: flashbacks as well. But all of that have helped me
Speaker 2: to be true to myself, Like I feel like I
Speaker 2: can get through more in life now. I'm more resilient,
Speaker 2: and even if there's something unforeseen ahead of me, I
Speaker 2: know I can ask for help.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change
Speaker 1: of plans. Tell me more about how you reconciled needing
Speaker 1: to get mental health access with your self identity as
Speaker 1: a type of person who was so strong and so
Speaker 1: determined and wouldn't need this sort of thing, because in
Speaker 1: your exceptional story lies a very universal feeling which many
Speaker 1: of us have, which is well, well, I thought I
Speaker 1: wouldn't need this sort of thing, and so how can
Speaker 1: we think differently about ourselves in those moments?
Speaker 2: You know, I just thought like nobody would understand me.
Speaker 2: That's a really difficult part of it. My experience was
Speaker 2: so different, like getting attacked at fifteen, recovering from all
Speaker 2: of that, and not having any flashbacks or panic attacks
Speaker 2: anything for many, many years. Yes, but then it happening
Speaker 2: all of a sudden much later, randomly in college. That
Speaker 2: was the turning point. I think where I felt so
Speaker 2: like disappointed and so embarrassed.
Speaker 3: I was like why now, and like why these small things?
Speaker 2: Why am I breaking down because of such like silly
Speaker 2: small things that could cause a trigger, or that could
Speaker 2: scare me, or that could emotionally affect me, mentally affect me,
Speaker 2: Like if I could. I just wanted to remind myself,
Speaker 2: you're brave, you're strong, you can get up. Like I
Speaker 2: wanted my mind and everything to just like shift magically
Speaker 2: back to normal. But you feel helpless, and that's that's
Speaker 2: how I felt like I felt really helpless. So in therapy,
Speaker 2: just to know that there's somebody listening to you, you
Speaker 2: don't feel alone anymore. And the therapist helped me see
Speaker 2: that emotions, thoughts, feelings, and actions are all separate and different.
Speaker 2: And when we are overwhelmed with work, with career pressure,
Speaker 2: with you know, love pressure, deciding whether to get married
Speaker 2: or not, or what to do after we graduate, all
Speaker 2: of these things can be overwhelming.
Speaker 3: And she used this word wind of tolerance.
Speaker 2: She said, we change along the way, and our window
Speaker 2: of tolerance keep expanding and contracting along the way. Sometimes
Speaker 2: we can take in more, sometimes we can take in less.
Speaker 2: And she said don't be embarrassed and disappointed that you
Speaker 2: are broken inside and that you know it's normal and
Speaker 2: it's okay and you will get through it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I want to pivot now to another tension that you
Speaker 1: describe in your book. And I love that this whole
Speaker 1: show is about identity and reconciling the many different parts
Speaker 1: of ourselves. Yes, our heart for us to unpack. And
Speaker 1: this tension is between your upbringing and the identity that
Speaker 1: you were forging for yourself right as this feminist woman,
Speaker 1: independent woman in the world. One of your earliest public
Speaker 1: run ins with this tension came in the form of
Speaker 1: the skinny jeans. Yes, so you chose to wear a
Speaker 1: pair of skinny jeans while at Oxford instead of a
Speaker 1: more traditional self archemise, which is more traditional Pakistani outfit,
Speaker 1: and the next day your photo was plastered all over
Speaker 1: newspapers in Pakistan, all over social media. There was this
Speaker 1: total outcry. Can you describe the significance of that moment
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 2: There was a whole controversy about me wearing jeans and
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 3: Quite chaotic.
Speaker 2: People who are criticizing me for wearing clothes that were
Speaker 2: not Islamic enough for Pakistani enough for cultural enough, and
Speaker 2: I should not be wearing skinny jeans. Why am I
Speaker 2: not wearing traditional clothes? And at that day, actually I
Speaker 2: had gone for rowing, so it was a.
Speaker 3: Normal college day for me. I'm in my bobber.
Speaker 2: Jacket, skinny jeans, I go for rowing. I realized rowing
Speaker 2: is not for me because it requires you to get
Speaker 2: up at five am and you need to know how
Speaker 2: to swim, and.
Speaker 3: I couldn't do either of those.
Speaker 2: And then I think I took a nap or something,
Speaker 2: and then I opened my phone and there are these
Speaker 2: tweets and messages and then are like phone calls from
Speaker 2: my parents, and then they started talking to me and said,
Speaker 2: oh my god, you have cast such backlash and there's
Speaker 2: this whole controversy now and as if like I had
Speaker 2: been in trouble. But I was like, what, like just
Speaker 2: because I wore jeans in college? And I told my parents,
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not here for some pilgrimage. I said,
Speaker 2: this is college. I'm not here, like can I be
Speaker 2: a normal student?
Speaker 3: Please?
Speaker 2: But I realized that I could not really defend myself
Speaker 2: on what I wear and what I don't want to wear.
Speaker 2: And it's and you know, and you can't satisfy anybody.
Speaker 2: There are people who are criticizing you because they think
Speaker 2: you're not wearing clothes that are Islamic enough, and then
Speaker 2: there are people who are criticizing you for still wearing
Speaker 2: your headscarf.
Speaker 3: Absolutely nobody's going to be happy, and you just.
Speaker 2: Get objectified and people think your clothes and everything is
Speaker 2: to satisfy what they think is right, and it's nothing
Speaker 2: about your own choice. So for me, it's always been
Speaker 2: about a woman's choice to decide for herself, as simple
Speaker 2: as that, for whatever reasons, whatever she wants to wear,
Speaker 2: let her wear and mind your own business.
Speaker 3: So I remember my.
Speaker 2: Dad saying that we should maybe issue a statement, and
Speaker 2: I was like, a statement defending what, like me wearing
Speaker 2: jeans or apologizing I will never wear jeans because I said,
Speaker 2: I'm going to wear jeans because I'm in college. I
Speaker 2: want to be like any other student. Everybody wears like
Speaker 2: hodies or like sweatbands, and you know, like it's it's
Speaker 2: so normal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well so it's so interesting, Malala. And I think
Speaker 1: this hearkens back to an earlier part of our conversation,
Speaker 1: because while you did resist your parents' admonitions in that moment.
Speaker 1: You write in your book that there was some validity
Speaker 1: baked into that concern. You say it was true if
Speaker 1: I wanted to promote education and equality for girls and
Speaker 1: women in Pakistan, I had to be inoffensive in every way.
Speaker 1: I felt responsible for proving that an educated girl is
Speaker 1: not a threat. As long as I conform to my
Speaker 1: culture's rules and dress code, no one in my community
Speaker 1: could say, look how Malala turned out. We were right
Speaker 1: to keep a tight leash on our daughters. And so
Speaker 1: am I reading it right that one of the pressures
Speaker 1: you felt was that you had to be the quote
Speaker 1: perfect messenger in order for your work in girls' education
Speaker 1: to be effective.
Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it's always a trade off.
Speaker 2: It's always this compromise you have to make. I don't
Speaker 2: think you can win every heart and you can satisfy
Speaker 2: everybody's opinions about you.
Speaker 3: But I knew that my cultural dress, my head scuff.
Speaker 2: Are away for people in my culture and community to
Speaker 2: connect with me, and that they don't see education as
Speaker 2: a threat, but they see education and women's empowerment as
Speaker 2: something that belongs to their culture too. And you don't
Speaker 2: have to look different. You don't have to mimic another
Speaker 2: culture to accept these human rights and equal access and
Speaker 2: education for girls, Like we have to redefine these things
Speaker 2: in our own culture, in our own traditions. But at
Speaker 2: the same time, I was like, you know, there's always
Speaker 2: a fine line between the decisions you make for your
Speaker 2: self for what you wear. So I think it's true,
Speaker 2: like we cannot hide this reality that Yes, as much
Speaker 2: as we would want a world where women can choose
Speaker 2: what they want to wear and people are not judging them,
Speaker 2: but it is still true that you people look at
Speaker 2: you how you dress, and do you represent them or not?
Speaker 3: Can they relate to you or not.
Speaker 2: So I have been saying, okay, like I'll wear my
Speaker 2: headscard because that is a way for me to stay
Speaker 2: connected with my family. And I'm like jeans we should allow,
Speaker 2: Like jeans are not like some sort of anti Islamic
Speaker 2: dress code. You know, there are so many Muslim countries
Speaker 2: and they somewhere should kam me somewhere jeans somewhere.
Speaker 3: You know, they're all very different clothes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no sort of like Islamic enough dress code.
Speaker 2: I think for me, the compromise, I'm I'm willing to
Speaker 2: make is for girls, for girls in my community that
Speaker 2: they can get an education. I'm not willing to make
Speaker 2: a compromise to make somebody happy or you know, I'm like, yes,
Speaker 2: your opinion is truly correct and I'm going to address
Speaker 2: this way. No, Sometimes we make compromises for a bigger mission.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for me, that.
Speaker 2: Is the girls in my community in Swath and Shanghli
Speaker 2: in the north of Pakistan. The school project we are
Speaker 2: supporting there where the first ever class graduated and these
Speaker 2: are the first girls. And you know, it's like a
Speaker 2: big number of girls who are graduating the first ones
Speaker 2: of their family in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3: They are already.
Speaker 2: Making history and they are going to be the role
Speaker 2: models for these generations to follow.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's extraordinary.
Speaker 3: Sorry, So anything for them, right, Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think seeing change happen at home is the
Speaker 2: most rewarding experience ever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because you can.
Speaker 2: Go and talk about changing the lives of girls out there.
Speaker 2: That work is important for me. But I wanted to
Speaker 2: see it. I wanted to see it happen right in
Speaker 2: front of me. And I knew that the village my
Speaker 2: parents were born is one of those places where girls do.
Speaker 3: Not have high schools.
Speaker 2: Hardly one or two have made it to a university.
Speaker 2: Somehow they have like escaped into other cities. But this
Speaker 2: is going to be the first time when girls will
Speaker 2: graduate and we're like redefining Gul's future.
Speaker 1: There, you said something very poignant. You said, I'm willing
Speaker 1: to compromise. I'm willing to negotiate on behalf of my
Speaker 1: work in girls' education, on behalf of those girls, but
Speaker 1: not to make someone happy with myself. Right with me,
Speaker 1: It's okay if someone's upset with me, Kama Malala right
Speaker 1: for wearing the jeans, But I would be willing to
Speaker 1: compromise for girls. Was that clarifying for you as you
Speaker 1: think about having to grapple with these complex choices and
Speaker 1: trade offs as you move forward. Were you realize you
Speaker 1: know what I'm I have the self confidence now where
Speaker 1: I don't have to tether my own sense of value
Speaker 1: or the contributions I make to the world with my
Speaker 1: individual choices as an individual person.
Speaker 2: I think it's easier to say it, it's hard to
Speaker 2: implement it. Because we experience moments when we are so
Speaker 2: influenced by our culture, by our family that we get
Speaker 2: stuck in that small bubble and I experienced that when
Speaker 2: you know, I said a few things about marriage. So
Speaker 2: there was this British Vogue cover about me, and I
Speaker 2: was so excited to like be on the British Vogue
Speaker 2: front page. I was like, this is insane. And I
Speaker 2: remember the journalist asking me about so many things, and
Speaker 2: then she brought up marriage.
Speaker 3: I was like, what marriage, Like why why do you
Speaker 3: want to ask me?
Speaker 2: Because at the time I was dating my now husband,
Speaker 2: So in that moment, I immediately said, oh, well, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know, like why do we have to get married?
Speaker 2: Why can't we just have a partnership, some agreement between
Speaker 2: two people.
Speaker 3: But this marriage thing is just too heavy, It's too much.
Speaker 2: When that article came out, there was a whole different controversy,
Speaker 2: and the trolling was insane because people were framing it
Speaker 2: as me being against marriage and me being against the
Speaker 2: religious Islamic like Nika ceremony, and somehow that I was
Speaker 2: like promoting adultery and like it was just like disgusting,
Speaker 2: Like when I was seeing the responses, like what are
Speaker 2: you guys like talking about or like I'm just promoting
Speaker 2: like some obscene stuff. Anyway, I remember how mad my
Speaker 2: mom and dad were, especially my mom. She said, I
Speaker 2: wish you had never said anything. And it's really hard
Speaker 2: to process because you're like, you know, I can't undo it,
Speaker 2: you know, the pieces out, I can't take my words back.
Speaker 3: Well, why do I have to take my words back?
Speaker 3: I am twenty three.
Speaker 2: I know I'm seeing a guy, but i can't talk
Speaker 2: about it publicly yet because I'm still like figuring out
Speaker 2: if he is the one for me or not, and
Speaker 2: if I'm ready for marriage or not. But women should
Speaker 2: have the right to question these institutions. And I knew
Speaker 2: I had so much privilege and all of that, and
Speaker 2: I knew everything about my rights, and I had an
Speaker 2: income and all of that, but I was still worried
Speaker 2: about what marriage actually means to women, how much they lose,
Speaker 2: how their career shifts. The more you look into it,
Speaker 2: you realize, like, it's not just a problem in the
Speaker 2: global South. It's a challenge everywhere where women have to
Speaker 2: make a lot more compromises and lose a lot along
Speaker 2: the way from you know, even their earnings to their
Speaker 2: career journey all of that. So I was just panicking
Speaker 2: a bit about marriage and I loved the guy and
Speaker 2: knew he was the right one for me, but I
Speaker 2: was like a marriage, Like, you know, we have to
Speaker 2: acknowledge the fact that marriage is a reality where girls
Speaker 2: have lost their future. So many girls are married without
Speaker 2: their permission, and a lot of them are married underage.
Speaker 2: And I remembered my own friend in school who was
Speaker 2: eleven years old who disappeared from school, and I found
Speaker 2: out many years later that she was married off without
Speaker 2: her choice, and she had two kids when she was
Speaker 2: still a child herself. So these things are heartbreaking. This
Speaker 2: is something we cannot look away from. This is a reality.
Speaker 2: So because of all of that, I was.
Speaker 3: Just overthinking about marriage.
Speaker 2: And when I look back, I do not regret it
Speaker 2: for a second that I took my time and I
Speaker 2: thought about it, and I started reading like books and
Speaker 2: articles like Chimmanda Adichi or Bill Hoax and Tory Alderton,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like forgetting the names. I was reading
Speaker 2: like all of these books about love and marriage and
Speaker 2: how feminist women are talking about it, and my friends
Speaker 2: and I were just debating about these things every day.
Speaker 2: And I was speaking to.
Speaker 3: My mom as well for the first time.
Speaker 2: To hear hard thoughts about what marriage meant to her,
Speaker 2: But that was all part of the learning process before
Speaker 2: I could decide to get married or not.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what ultimately influenced your decision to say yes, you
Speaker 1: do want to get married.
Speaker 2: I knew that I was ready to get married when
Speaker 2: I spent time with us er, when it was just
Speaker 2: the two of us, and I just realized that we.
Speaker 3: Were having the best time together.
Speaker 2: We would go on a hike and listen to music
Speaker 2: and play card games or poker, and I beat him
Speaker 2: in that. Initially, I thought I would ask him dozens
Speaker 2: of questions and I will like make sure, like you know,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know when you feel like I just
Speaker 2: need to know everything about this guy. Like it's not
Speaker 2: like I'm not going to miss anything. I'm watching you.
Speaker 2: What you think about this? And what are your opinions
Speaker 2: about women working? And what is your opinion about a
Speaker 2: woman earning more than men? And silly questions, right, But
Speaker 2: I think you have to ask them because you know,
Speaker 2: Dahl like you just never know what they say. He
Speaker 2: was giving very sensible answers. He was saying, if a
Speaker 2: woman earns more than the husband, she's like, wow, what
Speaker 2: a blessing.
Speaker 3: I was like, okay, here's a good sense of humor
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 2: But by the end of that trip I didn't need
Speaker 2: to ask him any question at all. I knew he
Speaker 2: was the one. I felt it, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I am happier with this guy. And this is what
Speaker 2: I tell to people about marriage, that you don't have
Speaker 2: to get married, you can still think about it. I
Speaker 2: don't tell anybody you you know you should or you shouldn't.
Speaker 2: I don't have any opinion. I think everybody should do
Speaker 2: their research on it. But whoever you choose to be with,
Speaker 2: your life should be happier than before.
Speaker 1: You you're writing your book that well, it's part of
Speaker 1: this line of questioning, right, making sure that you talk
Speaker 1: to that gender dynamics and power and whatnot. You reveal
Speaker 1: that you don't want kids, by the way, I want
Speaker 1: to be careful I say this correctly. So is it
Speaker 1: that you don't want kids or you don't want kids
Speaker 1: right now? And you're not sure? I don't want no.
Speaker 2: It's like, I know we don't want to create any conversiy,
Speaker 2: but but I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's like if somebody asked me, I'm like, what kids?
Speaker 2: What are you talking about, Like that's it changes everything, right,
Speaker 2: And I love kids like you know, and kids love
Speaker 2: me too, Like I have the best time like with kids,
Speaker 2: but it's just like having your own kid. Yes, that
Speaker 2: changes your life completely, and it's it's just I'm like.
Speaker 3: You know, when the time comes, I don't know. I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 1: I for what it's worth. I found it so refreshing
Speaker 1: to hear you say, at least you're writing your book.
Speaker 1: You told him I don't want kids at least right now,
Speaker 1: I don't want kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he needs to know.
Speaker 1: Yes, he needed to know that, and he needed to
Speaker 1: be okay with that.
Speaker 2: Yes, Like if that ever happens, he should know that
Speaker 2: that is one reality exactly, and that if he's not
Speaker 2: comfortable with it, he should talk to me now, because
Speaker 2: I don't want to face any pressure later on.
Speaker 1: What does it feel like to rebel against some of
Speaker 1: these very ingrained norms. So, speaking from personal experience, I
Speaker 1: don't have kids, but I was absolutely raised to feel like,
Speaker 1: from just cultural influences, that my self worth is contingent
Speaker 1: upon creating children, Like that was a fundamental part of
Speaker 1: my identity. And so I'm curious to know whether there's
Speaker 1: something empowering about just coming forth and saying no, I
Speaker 1: am questioning these norms and I am asking myself whether
Speaker 1: they're right for me.
Speaker 2: For me, it's always been about taking your time to
Speaker 2: think through it and making that decision when you feel comfortable,
Speaker 2: when you are ready for it. So about marriage, I
Speaker 2: took my time, I took a long time. I made
Speaker 2: us or wait, and I said, if you truly love me,
Speaker 2: you will wait for me. So yeah, And I think
Speaker 2: in terms of like decisions in the future, when the
Speaker 2: moment is right, we will know.
Speaker 3: But I just don't want to think about it right now.
Speaker 1: When you think back to the version of you in
Speaker 1: high school who had lost herself, and then the version
Speaker 1: of you who is discovering herself in college, and the
Speaker 1: version of you now that's discovering yourself and the public
Speaker 1: image of Malala and the expectations the world has for you,
Speaker 1: what is your guide as you move forward and have
Speaker 1: to make decisions that either prioritize yourself, prioritize others or expectations,
Speaker 1: oritize your advocacy work. Because while almost no one will
Speaker 1: face the exact pressures you face, everyone has some version
Speaker 1: of this tension in their life, right, they all will
Speaker 1: face some version of these trade offs. So how do
Speaker 1: you think about that?
Speaker 2: Wow, I think there's a lot to unfold and a
Speaker 2: lot to share. I can share a few things from
Speaker 2: my personal experiences. I think the first one is you
Speaker 2: have to be true to yourself. It is so hard
Speaker 2: to maintain and continue through your life if you're not
Speaker 2: true to yourself. So like, listen to your heart, listen
Speaker 2: to your feelings. They're telling you something, because when you don't,
Speaker 2: you don't realize and all of a sudden, it's all
Speaker 2: over you and it can break you down. So I'm like,
Speaker 2: just make sure like you are taking care of yourself.
Speaker 2: I still remember, like I just thought sleep wasn't for me,
Speaker 2: thinking water and no, I don't have time for this.
Speaker 2: It wasn't eating well, and somehow I thought that, you know,
Speaker 2: my work means just work only like nothing that is
Speaker 2: outside work. But I realized that I was actually not
Speaker 2: doing well in my work when I was not taking
Speaker 2: care of myself. And it was also connected with mental
Speaker 2: health as well. So you know, started eating better. I
Speaker 2: drink a lot more water, you know, we have water here,
Speaker 2: and I go for a run, I walk I try
Speaker 2: different sports because these things just helped me unwind and
Speaker 2: relax a bit, and it just I think it's a
Speaker 2: good way to like make sure that you're looking after yourself.
Speaker 2: And then sometimes I just remember what my therapist told me,
Speaker 2: like if you're having that moment when it's too overwhelming
Speaker 2: and you have that anxiety, just put your hand on
Speaker 2: your heart and taking a deep breath seven seconds inhale,
Speaker 2: eleven seconds exhale, and.
Speaker 3: Take your time.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what's ahead. I'm doing a lot
Speaker 2: of things that I'm excited about. My focuses on things
Speaker 2: through which we can empower girls. We can give them
Speaker 2: the right to education, we can create more opportunities for them.
Speaker 2: I'm really passionate about women's sports, so that's a project
Speaker 2: my husband and I are working together on. I love
Speaker 2: bringing women's stories to screens and just making sure that
Speaker 2: women and girls are not just talked about, but they
Speaker 2: have the real power, that they have platforms, they have tools,
Speaker 2: they have resources, Like that's when the real change happens.
Speaker 2: So we're investing in their long term through education, through sports,
Speaker 2: and you know, we're creating opportunities for them.
Speaker 3: That is my vision.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like in this book I talk about how
Speaker 2: I want to see a better world for girls. I
Speaker 2: know there have been many setbacks as well, including in
Speaker 2: Afghanistan where gulls are banned from education. Even recently, the
Speaker 2: Taliban said that they're gonna ban internet, so that is
Speaker 2: limiting the alternative education programs that we are supporting through
Speaker 2: Malala Fund. These issues affect me like they affect me emotionally.
Speaker 2: I know I want to sound like a brave girl,
Speaker 2: but you know, when the Taliban took over, I was
Speaker 2: receiving my last surgery for my facial symmetry, and when
Speaker 2: I was giving a speech about advocating for Afghan women
Speaker 2: in South Africa at the Nesser Mandela Lecture, and I
Speaker 2: was talking about how what's happening there should be recognized
Speaker 2: as a gender apartheid and the Taliban should be held accountable.
Speaker 2: We need more pressure. I had a panic attack in
Speaker 2: a hotel when like everything, all events, everything was done,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I was not scared on the stage,
Speaker 2: everything was fine in the interviews, but in the middle
Speaker 2: of the night, I can't breathe. My body is like shaking,
Speaker 2: and I don't know if I'm gonna be alive or not.
Speaker 2: Am I gonna like what is happening? My husband was
Speaker 2: there for me the whole night and he supported me.
Speaker 2: But it's just a reminder that in the end, like
Speaker 2: we're humans, we're not that strong all the time. It
Speaker 2: also made me reflect on what true bravery means, and
Speaker 2: bravery truly is when you stand up despite.
Speaker 3: The hardest moments you face.
Speaker 2: True bravery is when you get up when you feel
Speaker 2: like you will never be able to stand. True bravery
Speaker 2: is when you overcome all of these challenges and you're
Speaker 2: and you still continue and.
Speaker 3: Do the work. Yeah. So for me was you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: I had a panic attack.
Speaker 2: But I will move on, I'll ask for help, I'll
Speaker 2: go see my therapist again, and I will continue advocating
Speaker 2: for Afghan women and girls. I feel truly brave when
Speaker 2: I don't give up, when I don't let myself break down.
Speaker 1: Your memoir, it seems like an effort for you to
Speaker 1: reclaim your story, right to say I know who the
Speaker 1: world thinks I am, that this is actually who I am. Right,
Speaker 1: here's who I actually am. What do you hope people
Speaker 1: understand about you after reading this book that they perhaps
Speaker 1: never appreciated before?
Speaker 2: Oh, I think people find out that I'm a funny person.
Speaker 1: You are very funny and very mischievous.
Speaker 2: Yes, and that you know that was me, That was
Speaker 2: the actual Malala when I was a kid. But I
Speaker 2: am reclaiming that part of me. I haven't figured it
Speaker 2: all out, but that is the reality, you know, Like
Speaker 2: we all find our way, and this is my hope
Speaker 2: for everybody else that we all realize that we will
Speaker 2: find a way through it. And this process I was
Speaker 2: like reconnecting to every part of me and I'm just
Speaker 2: so happy with how it has all come together. I
Speaker 2: cannot wait for people to read it. I want them
Speaker 2: to know me beyond you know, the the fifteen year old.
Speaker 3: Malala who was defined by the world.
Speaker 2: But this is the first time that I am reintroducing
Speaker 2: myself and redefining my story.
Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just a reminder that
Speaker 1: we're trying something new here on the Slight Change team.
Speaker 1: We're now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes,
Speaker 1: including this one. You can watch my conversation with Malala
Speaker 1: on YouTube or at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change.
Speaker 1: That's Pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. I'd love to
Speaker 1: know what you think of these videos and if you'd
Speaker 1: like to see more. You can reach out to me
Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker or send an email
Speaker 1: to Slight Change at pushkin dot fm. And don't forget
Speaker 1: to pre order my new book, The Other Side of Change.
Speaker 1: You can find it at Changewithmaya dot com slash book
Speaker 1: and join me next time when I talk to therapists.
Speaker 1: Meg Josephson, author of the book, Are you mad at me?
Speaker 1: About how we become people pleasers? How it hurts our
Speaker 1: mental health and what we can do about it.
Speaker 4: If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until
Speaker 4: we're good again, Like I need to know that you're
Speaker 4: not upset with me before I can breathe again, because
Speaker 4: it's just so all consuming and it leads us to
Speaker 4: feeling like I don't know who I am, I don't
Speaker 4: know what my preferences are, I don't know what my
Speaker 4: interests are because we've been trained to be hyper attuned
Speaker 4: to what everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs.
Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See
Speaker 1: you again. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written
Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change
Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and
Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful
Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries,
Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A
Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker.
Speaker 1: See you next week