1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:33,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey there, it's Maya. If you listen to the show, 2 00:00:33,516 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 1: you know that I'm fascinated by how people respond when 3 00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:39,996 Speaker 1: life doesn't go according to plan. My new book with 4 00:00:40,076 --> 00:00:43,596 Speaker 1: Penguin Random House, The Other Side of Change, comes out 5 00:00:43,676 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: January thirteenth, and it grew out of the same questions 6 00:00:47,156 --> 00:00:50,116 Speaker 1: we explore on this podcast. What do we hold on 7 00:00:50,196 --> 00:00:52,876 Speaker 1: to when life shifts, what do we let go of? 8 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:55,636 Speaker 1: And how do we find meaning on the other side. 9 00:00:56,156 --> 00:00:59,156 Speaker 1: The Other Side of Change blends all new stories you 10 00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:03,316 Speaker 1: haven't heard on the podcast with new scientific insights on resilience. 11 00:01:03,756 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 1: My hope is that it gives you the tools you 12 00:01:05,556 --> 00:01:08,516 Speaker 1: need to navigate your own moments of disruption with a 13 00:01:08,556 --> 00:01:11,716 Speaker 1: greater sense of possibility about who you can become on 14 00:01:11,796 --> 00:01:14,476 Speaker 1: the Other Side of Change. You can learn more and 15 00:01:14,596 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 1: pre order now at the link in the show notes 16 00:01:17,236 --> 00:01:21,236 Speaker 1: or at Changewmaya dot com slash book. That's changed with 17 00:01:21,356 --> 00:01:24,156 Speaker 1: Maya dot com slash book, And if you'd like to 18 00:01:24,156 --> 00:01:28,236 Speaker 1: get more involved, I just launch an Ambassador's program, which 19 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:32,116 Speaker 1: will give you exclusive content, free perks, and invitation to 20 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:35,716 Speaker 1: a conversation with me and behind the scenes updates. You 21 00:01:35,756 --> 00:01:40,316 Speaker 1: can join this new community at changewithmaya dot com slash join. 22 00:01:40,796 --> 00:01:43,796 Speaker 1: I can't wait to share this book with you. Okay, 23 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:46,836 Speaker 1: now onto Malala. 24 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 2: I was in coma when I was seeing the world 25 00:01:50,156 --> 00:01:53,316 Speaker 2: define me or somehow now the bravest girl and the 26 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 2: most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like, what do you 27 00:01:56,636 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 2: know about being brave and being courageous? And what do 28 00:01:59,396 --> 00:02:00,996 Speaker 2: you know about being an activist? 29 00:02:01,796 --> 00:02:05,836 Speaker 1: When Malala Usufsi enters a room, she usually doesn't need 30 00:02:05,876 --> 00:02:09,596 Speaker 1: an introduction. Most people know her story, or at least 31 00:02:09,596 --> 00:02:12,596 Speaker 1: they think they do. They might know that years ago 32 00:02:12,756 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: she was shot in the face when she was still 33 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 1: a schoolgirl in Pakistan, or perhaps they know that she's 34 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:22,636 Speaker 1: the youngest ever recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. For 35 00:02:22,716 --> 00:02:25,396 Speaker 1: those of you who know of Malala but are fuzzy 36 00:02:25,436 --> 00:02:27,756 Speaker 1: on the details of her story, let me give you 37 00:02:27,796 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 1: a bit of context. Malala became an activist for girls' 38 00:02:31,436 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 1: education in her home country of Pakistan when she was 39 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:37,876 Speaker 1: just eleven years old, blogging and speaking out against the 40 00:02:37,916 --> 00:02:41,796 Speaker 1: Thaliban band on girls attending school. In twenty twelve, when 41 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 1: she was fifteen, she was shot in the face by 42 00:02:44,636 --> 00:02:50,076 Speaker 1: Thaliban gunman who boarded her school bus after the attempted assassination. 43 00:02:50,396 --> 00:02:52,956 Speaker 1: She was immediately flown to a hospital in the UK, 44 00:02:53,556 --> 00:02:56,036 Speaker 1: where she spent a week in a coma and underwent 45 00:02:56,156 --> 00:03:00,556 Speaker 1: multiple operations. During this time, and unbeknownst to her, she 46 00:03:00,676 --> 00:03:05,316 Speaker 1: became a global icon. Malala is twenty eight now. She's 47 00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:08,716 Speaker 1: written a new memoir called Finding My Way, which shows 48 00:03:08,716 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 1: her menes sides that I had not considered as someone 49 00:03:12,476 --> 00:03:16,476 Speaker 1: who has admired her from Afar. Malala the shy schoolgirl, 50 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 1: the mischievous college student, the trauma survivor, and the newly 51 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:25,276 Speaker 1: married woman who continues to grapple with societal norms like 52 00:03:25,436 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: marriage and having children. Malala is an expert on something 53 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:33,316 Speaker 1: very relevant to Slight Change listeners, the tension that exists 54 00:03:33,316 --> 00:03:36,716 Speaker 1: between the different versions of ourselves that we carry, who 55 00:03:36,796 --> 00:03:39,716 Speaker 1: the world expects us to be, who our families raised 56 00:03:39,756 --> 00:03:42,316 Speaker 1: us to be, and who we're still in the process 57 00:03:42,396 --> 00:03:49,316 Speaker 1: of becoming. I'm Maya Shunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, 58 00:03:49,796 --> 00:03:52,436 Speaker 1: and this is a slight Change of plans, a show 59 00:03:52,436 --> 00:03:54,796 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 60 00:03:54,796 --> 00:04:05,836 Speaker 1: face of a big change. I must say there have 61 00:04:05,876 --> 00:04:08,236 Speaker 1: been a few pinch me moments in my life and 62 00:04:08,836 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 1: today I guess one of those pinchy moments. And I 63 00:04:11,356 --> 00:04:13,836 Speaker 1: always feel gratitude that I get to do the show 64 00:04:13,996 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 1: that sometimes it reaches an extraordinary level. 65 00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:18,636 Speaker 3: That means so much to me. 66 00:04:18,916 --> 00:04:23,476 Speaker 2: And you're doing an amazing podcast and you are speaking 67 00:04:23,516 --> 00:04:27,876 Speaker 2: to incredible people. And I loved the name of the podcast, 68 00:04:28,316 --> 00:04:31,196 Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans, because this is what my 69 00:04:31,236 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 2: life has been like. I have been changing my plans 70 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 2: the whole time, so I thought, Wow, this is the 71 00:04:37,276 --> 00:04:38,436 Speaker 2: show I need to be on. 72 00:04:38,796 --> 00:04:42,996 Speaker 1: I'm so glad to hear that. I'm curious to know, Malala, 73 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:47,076 Speaker 1: how long after you woke up from your coma did 74 00:04:47,076 --> 00:04:51,756 Speaker 1: it register that people all around the world were rallying 75 00:04:51,836 --> 00:04:52,156 Speaker 1: for you. 76 00:04:52,996 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 2: This is that time of my life, which I am 77 00:04:56,476 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 2: still trying to process. I woke up in a hospital 78 00:05:00,676 --> 00:05:03,876 Speaker 2: in Birmingham in the UK. I was seeing nurses and 79 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:08,796 Speaker 2: doctors speaking in English. I had to bring these pieces 80 00:05:08,836 --> 00:05:12,036 Speaker 2: of my my memories and flashbacks together to figure out 81 00:05:12,076 --> 00:05:14,756 Speaker 2: what had happened. I knew that I was attacked. I 82 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 2: knew something bad had happened, but I did not know 83 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,316 Speaker 2: where my family was, who had brought me here, if 84 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,716 Speaker 2: anybody even had heard my story or not I was 85 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:26,916 Speaker 2: very focused on my physical recovery. I had to go 86 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:31,396 Speaker 2: through multiple more surgeries for my facial nerve recovery for 87 00:05:31,556 --> 00:05:35,916 Speaker 2: my hearing, and they had removed a piece of my skull, 88 00:05:35,956 --> 00:05:38,476 Speaker 2: which is really hard to explain to people, because the 89 00:05:38,516 --> 00:05:42,836 Speaker 2: brain was technically swelling because of the shooting, and so 90 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:46,796 Speaker 2: they replaced this part of that skull with a titanium plate. 91 00:05:47,436 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 2: And I just could not believe when somebody at the 92 00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:55,836 Speaker 2: hospital showed me photos and videos of people holding play 93 00:05:55,836 --> 00:05:59,436 Speaker 2: cards of I Am Malala, We Stand with Malala, and 94 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:03,196 Speaker 2: they were just boring their support for the cause of girls' education. 95 00:06:04,036 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 2: And one day one of the staff members brought in 96 00:06:07,356 --> 00:06:11,916 Speaker 2: a basket of cars and notes and letters and I 97 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,476 Speaker 2: was like, wow, like, so some people have even written 98 00:06:14,556 --> 00:06:18,756 Speaker 2: to me. And that's when the hospital staff member told 99 00:06:18,756 --> 00:06:22,076 Speaker 2: me that yes, there are like many more boxes like this, 100 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:25,996 Speaker 2: and you have received thousands and thousands of letters. The 101 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:28,756 Speaker 2: support of people was everything to me because that gave 102 00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:32,116 Speaker 2: me the courage to know that I was not alone 103 00:06:32,116 --> 00:06:33,556 Speaker 2: in my fight for girls education. 104 00:06:35,516 --> 00:06:39,116 Speaker 1: Did you ever feel amounting pressure within yourself that came 105 00:06:39,156 --> 00:06:42,756 Speaker 1: along with all of these people who are now following 106 00:06:42,796 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: you and supporting you. But also saw you as this 107 00:06:47,156 --> 00:06:48,076 Speaker 1: heroic symbol. 108 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:53,116 Speaker 2: There was a lot of pressure because of the sudden 109 00:06:54,156 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 2: attention that I received, and I became a girl's education activist. 110 00:06:59,436 --> 00:07:00,876 Speaker 3: And this is what I wanted to do. 111 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 2: But I think more than it being people's pressure on me, 112 00:07:05,236 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 2: it was my own pressure on myself. I felt a 113 00:07:07,956 --> 00:07:12,436 Speaker 2: sense of responsibility that I am now so lucky that 114 00:07:12,476 --> 00:07:15,236 Speaker 2: I have the right to be in a school in 115 00:07:15,276 --> 00:07:19,276 Speaker 2: the UK and be a normal student, and people are 116 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:21,516 Speaker 2: listening to my story, so I want to use it 117 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:24,916 Speaker 2: to advocate for other girls around the world. I started 118 00:07:24,956 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 2: my nonprofit, Malana Fund, and while I was still a 119 00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:30,716 Speaker 2: student in school, I was doing all of this work. 120 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:32,396 Speaker 3: But I think in the middle of. 121 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 2: All of this, I forgot to be myself, forgot to 122 00:07:36,836 --> 00:07:41,556 Speaker 2: be that normal person. I was in Pakistan who had friends, 123 00:07:41,676 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 2: who was joyful, mischievous sometimes, and I was looking for 124 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:52,116 Speaker 2: that part of me. I was in Coma when I 125 00:07:52,196 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 2: was seeing the world define me. I was somehow now 126 00:07:56,676 --> 00:08:00,476 Speaker 2: the bravest girl and the most courageous girl, and at fifteen, like, 127 00:08:00,516 --> 00:08:02,956 Speaker 2: what do you know about being brave and being courageous 128 00:08:03,076 --> 00:08:05,916 Speaker 2: and what do you know about being an activist? 129 00:08:06,516 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 1: When you were seventeen Malala in high school, as though 130 00:08:08,876 --> 00:08:13,436 Speaker 1: the hero narrative was not pervasive enough. You were awarded 131 00:08:13,436 --> 00:08:17,996 Speaker 1: the Nobel Peace Prize. And I can imagine that this 132 00:08:18,156 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: is a double edged sword kind of award because on 133 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 1: the one hand, it is such a boon for your 134 00:08:23,756 --> 00:08:27,196 Speaker 1: advocacy work, right it's shining one of the biggest spotlights 135 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 1: in the world on the causes you care most about. 136 00:08:30,476 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 1: On the other hand, what a weight to be placed 137 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:38,476 Speaker 1: on a seventeen year old who's still figuring out or 138 00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:41,396 Speaker 1: maybe hasn't even had time to do the normal exploration 139 00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:46,196 Speaker 1: of adolescence. So how did you did you feel that weight? 140 00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:52,356 Speaker 1: Did you feel pressure or anxiety around the receiving of 141 00:08:52,396 --> 00:08:54,316 Speaker 1: the award because of all that it might entail. 142 00:08:55,476 --> 00:09:00,956 Speaker 2: I don't think the Nobel Peace Prize changed things that much, 143 00:09:01,356 --> 00:09:05,076 Speaker 2: because already I was at this stage where I was 144 00:09:05,716 --> 00:09:10,356 Speaker 2: receiving so many recognitions and awards that I had already 145 00:09:10,396 --> 00:09:15,516 Speaker 2: put this responsibility on myself that now you are somehow 146 00:09:15,516 --> 00:09:17,996 Speaker 2: in the list of all of these great activists in 147 00:09:18,036 --> 00:09:20,116 Speaker 2: the world. So you have to figure it all out. 148 00:09:20,156 --> 00:09:22,596 Speaker 2: You need to be able to fix all of these 149 00:09:22,956 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 2: problems that girls face. I thought, like all of the 150 00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 2: activists we have heard of in history. They had the 151 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:33,436 Speaker 2: magic power and they could like change everything in a day. 152 00:09:33,596 --> 00:09:35,436 Speaker 2: Because when you were a kid, that's how you learn 153 00:09:35,516 --> 00:09:38,276 Speaker 2: about heroes. So I was still like fifteen sixteen, This 154 00:09:38,316 --> 00:09:40,996 Speaker 2: is how I understood it. I said, Okay, like, you know, 155 00:09:41,156 --> 00:09:44,676 Speaker 2: maybe once I finished school or something like somehow like 156 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:47,196 Speaker 2: we'll crack the code and we'll suddenly put all girls 157 00:09:47,276 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 2: in school. 158 00:09:48,356 --> 00:09:50,796 Speaker 1: One thing that was so striking to me and reading 159 00:09:51,356 --> 00:09:57,916 Speaker 1: your memoir is that it showed me how it showed 160 00:09:57,916 --> 00:10:00,516 Speaker 1: me an illusion that I had fallen prey to, which 161 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:04,476 Speaker 1: is I really had painted you as a one dimensional hero. 162 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:09,636 Speaker 1: I think it's very easy as humans to assign holier 163 00:10:09,636 --> 00:10:14,316 Speaker 1: than Thou status to other human beings, right, because when 164 00:10:14,316 --> 00:10:18,636 Speaker 1: I read about your bravery as a young child, I think, oh, 165 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:21,476 Speaker 1: she's just a different type of person. She falls into 166 00:10:21,516 --> 00:10:24,796 Speaker 1: a different category of human that is inaccessible to me. 167 00:10:25,836 --> 00:10:30,036 Speaker 1: And one gift I feel your memoir gives all of 168 00:10:30,076 --> 00:10:35,676 Speaker 1: its readers is it bridges the gap between someone like 169 00:10:35,756 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 1: me and someone like you. You reveal that you were 170 00:10:39,756 --> 00:10:44,236 Speaker 1: actually just a young girl behind this hero venir. And 171 00:10:44,316 --> 00:10:47,956 Speaker 1: so one question I have for you is, given the 172 00:10:47,996 --> 00:10:51,156 Speaker 1: way the world was portraying you in the media, right, 173 00:10:51,516 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: Malala the hero. Did you ever feel that you had 174 00:10:55,236 --> 00:11:00,276 Speaker 1: to distort who you were in order to fit that mold. 175 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:03,636 Speaker 3: Short answer, yes, I think. 176 00:11:04,956 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 2: I thought that there is now this defined version of 177 00:11:08,316 --> 00:11:11,556 Speaker 2: me out there and I have to live up to that. 178 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:17,196 Speaker 2: And for me, that meant that I could not expect 179 00:11:17,276 --> 00:11:18,276 Speaker 2: to have a normal life. 180 00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:21,596 Speaker 3: And I thought it was okay, like not to have 181 00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:22,796 Speaker 3: friends in school. 182 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:26,036 Speaker 2: I thought, you know, maybe in university as well, that's 183 00:11:26,076 --> 00:11:28,236 Speaker 2: what life is supposed to be. Like. You just go 184 00:11:28,316 --> 00:11:30,996 Speaker 2: and get the top grades and you just move on 185 00:11:31,196 --> 00:11:33,756 Speaker 2: to the busy life that you have where you are 186 00:11:33,796 --> 00:11:37,596 Speaker 2: at conferences and events and giving speeches. But you can 187 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:40,516 Speaker 2: never really be with people your age. You can never 188 00:11:40,716 --> 00:11:43,996 Speaker 2: see boys and girls, you could never be in parties, 189 00:11:44,036 --> 00:11:47,556 Speaker 2: you could never like just be silly. I just thought 190 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:50,636 Speaker 2: that that's how maybe it's supposed to be for me. 191 00:11:51,956 --> 00:11:56,476 Speaker 2: But I knew that it was not healthy and I 192 00:11:56,476 --> 00:12:00,156 Speaker 2: could not continue with that. And I realized that when 193 00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 2: I went to university, because they were just moments when 194 00:12:03,436 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 2: I felt more like myself and I was like, I 195 00:12:06,796 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 2: feel like I'm a free soul here. Yeah, And it 196 00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:13,556 Speaker 2: was the first time that I felt like nobody was 197 00:12:13,676 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 2: watching me. I was, you know, away from my parents, 198 00:12:17,556 --> 00:12:19,316 Speaker 2: I was away from my work people. 199 00:12:19,636 --> 00:12:23,316 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it was just me in a new place. 200 00:12:23,556 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 2: And my neighbors were my college friends, and of course 201 00:12:27,036 --> 00:12:29,356 Speaker 2: I had security behind me, but you know, they told 202 00:12:29,396 --> 00:12:31,276 Speaker 2: me to ignore them, so I kept ignoring them. 203 00:12:31,556 --> 00:12:35,156 Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, like, maybe just for a. 204 00:12:35,116 --> 00:12:40,476 Speaker 2: Bit, if I experienced these things where I feel like 205 00:12:40,516 --> 00:12:43,436 Speaker 2: nobody's judging me and nobody's watching me, I just want 206 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:44,516 Speaker 2: to know what it feels like. 207 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:45,356 Speaker 3: Yeah. 208 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 2: So I was doing things like you know, staying up 209 00:12:48,316 --> 00:12:51,076 Speaker 2: late at night, and I went to a club with 210 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 2: my friends for the first time, which was like you know, 211 00:12:52,916 --> 00:12:57,676 Speaker 2: our college sort of club night, and I climbed the rooftop, 212 00:12:57,716 --> 00:13:00,436 Speaker 2: which was not allowed, which was a very risky thing. 213 00:13:01,116 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 2: And it is such an adventure to be, you know, 214 00:13:05,196 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 2: that mischievous student, that rebellious student to go up there 215 00:13:09,276 --> 00:13:12,236 Speaker 2: to see how like not many friends were actually willing 216 00:13:12,276 --> 00:13:14,796 Speaker 2: to do it, just to know that this is a 217 00:13:14,836 --> 00:13:18,076 Speaker 2: thriller experience only some want to have. And I am 218 00:13:18,516 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 2: in here, like I am on the rooftop of this 219 00:13:21,156 --> 00:13:24,476 Speaker 2: college at midnight, and I can see the college security 220 00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:27,156 Speaker 2: walking down there, and I'm like they can catch us 221 00:13:27,276 --> 00:13:29,276 Speaker 2: any moment, and I could be in trouble forever. 222 00:13:29,716 --> 00:13:31,196 Speaker 3: But I love those moments. 223 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:34,156 Speaker 2: And I remember just sitting there on the college rooftop, 224 00:13:34,596 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 2: breathing in the air and taking it in and just 225 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:40,916 Speaker 2: to know that I sort of owned the world. And 226 00:13:40,116 --> 00:13:42,796 Speaker 2: I will never forget those moments. 227 00:13:43,236 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's easy to forget that while you 228 00:13:46,116 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: were advocating for girls worldwide, right, you were this adolescence 229 00:13:49,836 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: who was coming into her own and discovering who she was. 230 00:13:53,676 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 1: What was it like to explore that side of yourself? Right, 231 00:13:59,476 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 1: Because it almost seems like you were never given the 232 00:14:03,596 --> 00:14:07,316 Speaker 1: luxury of time to process not only what you had 233 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:09,436 Speaker 1: been through, the traumatic experience you'd been through, but to 234 00:14:10,516 --> 00:14:14,196 Speaker 1: actually engage in self reflection about the kind of person 235 00:14:14,516 --> 00:14:16,196 Speaker 1: that you were and the kind of person you wanted 236 00:14:16,196 --> 00:14:18,996 Speaker 1: to be. And in addition to not having the luxury 237 00:14:19,036 --> 00:14:23,036 Speaker 1: of time, you were being given instruction manuals from society, 238 00:14:23,516 --> 00:14:27,276 Speaker 1: from probably your parents, from your culture about who you 239 00:14:27,356 --> 00:14:30,076 Speaker 1: ought to be. Right, And so, from what I could 240 00:14:30,076 --> 00:14:32,596 Speaker 1: tell from your memoir, college was the first time when 241 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:36,596 Speaker 1: you got to take a step back and really ask yourself, 242 00:14:37,116 --> 00:14:40,436 Speaker 1: who am I and who do I Malala want to 243 00:14:40,436 --> 00:14:42,596 Speaker 1: be without any of that societal pressure. 244 00:14:42,796 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 2: And I didn't have any immediate answer to that question. 245 00:14:46,236 --> 00:14:48,916 Speaker 2: But for me, it was accepting the fact that in 246 00:14:48,956 --> 00:14:51,876 Speaker 2: this college I will have experiences that will help me 247 00:14:51,916 --> 00:14:52,396 Speaker 2: find out. 248 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. 249 00:14:53,436 --> 00:14:57,716 Speaker 2: I remember on the college opening week, I was signing 250 00:14:57,836 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 2: up for everything, different societies like the South Asia Society 251 00:15:01,596 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 2: and Islamic Society, and I was like, you know, I 252 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:07,876 Speaker 2: want to play cricket, I want to play badminton, I 253 00:15:07,916 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 2: want to roll, want to be in this club, I 254 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 2: want to listen to this debate. 255 00:15:11,476 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 3: I want to hang out with my friends. 256 00:15:13,436 --> 00:15:16,156 Speaker 2: All the time, I was wondering how I'm going to 257 00:15:16,196 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 2: study at the same time, but I had little time 258 00:15:19,276 --> 00:15:22,796 Speaker 2: neft for that. But I wanted to explore things, and 259 00:15:22,836 --> 00:15:26,076 Speaker 2: you will. You only know more about yourself. 260 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 3: When you have more experiences. 261 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:31,076 Speaker 2: It's just it's just not possible for you to just 262 00:15:31,076 --> 00:15:35,156 Speaker 2: sit down and like do it all in imagination. Yeah. So, yeah, 263 00:15:36,356 --> 00:15:39,116 Speaker 2: it was a blessing to be there and to get 264 00:15:39,116 --> 00:15:42,516 Speaker 2: this opportunity to have these amazing experiences. 265 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 3: Yeah. 266 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:45,396 Speaker 1: One of the things that you write about in your 267 00:15:45,396 --> 00:15:49,116 Speaker 1: book that I feel was so wonderfully candid and honest 268 00:15:49,156 --> 00:15:51,796 Speaker 1: and help to bridge the gap that I felt between 269 00:15:51,916 --> 00:15:54,556 Speaker 1: me and you prior to reading is you open up 270 00:15:54,596 --> 00:15:57,956 Speaker 1: about being self conscious about your face after the shooting 271 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: because the facial nerve was damaged, right, so your left 272 00:16:00,756 --> 00:16:04,196 Speaker 1: eye was drooped, your mouth only moved on one side 273 00:16:04,196 --> 00:16:07,796 Speaker 1: when you smiled. You developed some mechanisms to try to 274 00:16:07,836 --> 00:16:10,516 Speaker 1: conceal the extent to the facial injuries. Right, you cover 275 00:16:10,556 --> 00:16:14,076 Speaker 1: your mouth every time you smiled. And people were very 276 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 1: cruel online about the facial paralysis. And I appreciate your 277 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,556 Speaker 1: being forthcoming about this because I think it's a very 278 00:16:23,556 --> 00:16:26,276 Speaker 1: brave thing to do. I think it's very easy to 279 00:16:26,356 --> 00:16:32,076 Speaker 1: dismiss views about one's appearance as simply, you know, trivial 280 00:16:32,636 --> 00:16:35,556 Speaker 1: and silly. And there's a quote from your book that 281 00:16:35,596 --> 00:16:38,516 Speaker 1: I would love to read. No matter how much confidence 282 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:42,196 Speaker 1: I projected on stage and in speeches, I felt too 283 00:16:42,396 --> 00:16:45,636 Speaker 1: ugly to love. It was a harsh truth and one 284 00:16:45,716 --> 00:16:49,116 Speaker 1: I hated admitting to myself because it felt so vain 285 00:16:49,196 --> 00:16:52,156 Speaker 1: and trivial. And then later you go on to say 286 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 1: you don't need to be attractive to be an activist. 287 00:16:54,716 --> 00:16:57,596 Speaker 1: I told myself, tell me more about that. What a 288 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:00,396 Speaker 1: confession for you to make. I'm so proud of you 289 00:17:00,676 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 1: for saying something like that. 290 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:05,916 Speaker 2: I had to be honest in sharing more about my 291 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:11,116 Speaker 2: insecurities because you know, I wanted to be fully myself 292 00:17:11,156 --> 00:17:16,476 Speaker 2: in this book. And as much as I tried to 293 00:17:16,556 --> 00:17:19,436 Speaker 2: keep myself as this strong, brave girl, you know, if 294 00:17:19,476 --> 00:17:22,876 Speaker 2: I was alone in my room, there was this moment 295 00:17:22,916 --> 00:17:26,036 Speaker 2: when I thought, okay, like can I be loved? Can 296 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:31,076 Speaker 2: I love myself? Those moments were really heartbreaking. In college, 297 00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:33,996 Speaker 2: you know, it was the first time that I was 298 00:17:33,996 --> 00:17:35,196 Speaker 2: seeing boys my age. 299 00:17:35,236 --> 00:17:37,036 Speaker 3: Before that, I was in an all girls. 300 00:17:36,876 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 2: School and even in the events and conferences that I 301 00:17:41,076 --> 00:17:43,636 Speaker 2: would go to, it was all like men a lot older. 302 00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 2: So I had never really seen boys my age, and 303 00:17:47,636 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 2: I was like, you know, just for a second, I 304 00:17:49,276 --> 00:17:51,396 Speaker 2: was like, oh can I Can I be loved? Can 305 00:17:51,436 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 2: I be in love? And I was convincing myself like no, 306 00:17:56,996 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 2: this can never be your life. So I've just told myself, okay, 307 00:18:02,036 --> 00:18:04,956 Speaker 2: I'm never going to get married, work on me, just 308 00:18:04,956 --> 00:18:07,076 Speaker 2: give up on it. So I was like, Okay, I 309 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 2: can cry quietly and when I'm alone, but outside I'm 310 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:15,356 Speaker 2: going to stay strong. So in college there was this guy, 311 00:18:15,476 --> 00:18:21,196 Speaker 2: this mysterious guy. He was just really handsome, and I 312 00:18:21,236 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 2: saw him sitting on a bench and. 313 00:18:24,276 --> 00:18:26,396 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, you know, what is he doing? 314 00:18:26,436 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 3: What is he a doul? 315 00:18:27,396 --> 00:18:30,156 Speaker 2: Shall I go and talk to him? He became like 316 00:18:30,236 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 2: my first college crush. He in the end ghosted me. 317 00:18:34,236 --> 00:18:38,596 Speaker 2: He disappeared, But in those moments, even just for like 318 00:18:38,636 --> 00:18:42,236 Speaker 2: a bit, I thought, wow, Like, even if it's one sided, 319 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:43,636 Speaker 2: this is what love feels like. 320 00:18:43,876 --> 00:18:46,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, while you were in college, you know, you were 321 00:18:46,636 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 1: having this very rich, dynamic life socially, but there was 322 00:18:50,916 --> 00:18:54,516 Speaker 1: a secret that you were holding within, which was your 323 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:58,876 Speaker 1: brain was grappling with this past trauma of yours. Right, 324 00:18:58,956 --> 00:19:03,996 Speaker 1: And it occurs to me that you never had time 325 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:07,596 Speaker 1: to process what had actually happened to you. I think 326 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:10,596 Speaker 1: coming from a South Asian background and mental health is 327 00:19:10,636 --> 00:19:13,356 Speaker 1: not really discussed. The idea of therapy is like, what, 328 00:19:13,476 --> 00:19:16,636 Speaker 1: why would you see a therapist tell me about that 329 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:20,316 Speaker 1: experience in which you had your first panic attack and 330 00:19:20,356 --> 00:19:22,916 Speaker 1: what that was like, and had you maybe thought, oh, 331 00:19:22,916 --> 00:19:24,796 Speaker 1: that's something from my past. I can just sort of 332 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:25,396 Speaker 1: put it away. 333 00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:32,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought I had fully recovered. I got shot 334 00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 2: at age fifteen. For me, everything was about healing from 335 00:19:36,116 --> 00:19:41,196 Speaker 2: that bullet, and I never thought that seven years later, 336 00:19:42,156 --> 00:19:46,316 Speaker 2: I would be getting flashbacks about the incident. You know, 337 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 2: I had moved on. I was in college now, and 338 00:19:49,996 --> 00:19:55,356 Speaker 2: I had this experience in college that triggered and like 339 00:19:55,476 --> 00:19:58,316 Speaker 2: I felt like it just like reopened that whole chapter again. 340 00:20:00,956 --> 00:20:05,636 Speaker 2: So I was with some friends and they were trying bong. 341 00:20:06,356 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 2: So I was like, okay, Like I've never seen wong, 342 00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:12,756 Speaker 2: what is this? So I took one puff and I 343 00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:16,236 Speaker 2: coughed on the second attempt. When I inhaled it, I 344 00:20:16,236 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 2: felt like it just immediately went inside my body, and 345 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:21,076 Speaker 2: that was the turning point. 346 00:20:21,676 --> 00:20:25,436 Speaker 3: After that, it just froze. 347 00:20:26,276 --> 00:20:30,396 Speaker 2: I thought I could not move anymore, and I started 348 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:34,516 Speaker 2: getting those flashbacks from the attack where I thought the 349 00:20:34,516 --> 00:20:38,076 Speaker 2: gunmen were still around me, and I thought I was dead, 350 00:20:38,196 --> 00:20:41,396 Speaker 2: or I might have just been killed, or something had happened. 351 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,116 Speaker 3: All of these thoughts were just going. 352 00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:47,876 Speaker 2: On in my mind, and it was truly truly traumatic experience. 353 00:20:48,516 --> 00:20:52,316 Speaker 2: I just could not process time anymore. I could hear 354 00:20:52,356 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 2: my heart beat, I was sweating, I was shaking, I 355 00:20:55,076 --> 00:20:58,556 Speaker 2: was shivering. My mind was into the spiral of thoughts 356 00:20:58,556 --> 00:21:00,596 Speaker 2: of like, am I gonna die? 357 00:21:00,796 --> 00:21:03,636 Speaker 3: Am I dead? What happened? Was I alive? 358 00:21:03,876 --> 00:21:06,356 Speaker 2: Where am I these kind of things and it was 359 00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:09,596 Speaker 2: really really scary, to be honest, like scared yester night 360 00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:12,236 Speaker 2: I have ever experienced, and I don't know how I 361 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:17,036 Speaker 2: made it through it. But the next day, like I realized, 362 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:20,276 Speaker 2: I'm not the same person anymore. Things have changed now 363 00:21:21,116 --> 00:21:25,716 Speaker 2: and after that I have had many more like panic attacks, flashbacks, 364 00:21:25,876 --> 00:21:30,956 Speaker 2: this trauma, and I felt really frustrated that it just 365 00:21:31,076 --> 00:21:33,436 Speaker 2: opened this whole chapter for me. Like I thought I 366 00:21:33,476 --> 00:21:36,596 Speaker 2: would never need this whole mental health support and who 367 00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:37,836 Speaker 2: want to see a therapist? 368 00:21:37,916 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 3: I thought, I'm so strong, I am like so brave 369 00:21:40,876 --> 00:21:43,156 Speaker 3: and courageous. Those things are not for me. 370 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:47,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I survived an attack, what could break me down? 371 00:21:47,236 --> 00:21:49,596 Speaker 2: A small thing like a bomb experience that could break 372 00:21:49,596 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 2: me down. So for weeks then months ahead, I tried 373 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:58,276 Speaker 2: to cope with it. My friends were everything to me 374 00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 2: in that time. They couldn't help me exactly, but they 375 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 2: were showing that they were there for me. So one 376 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:10,476 Speaker 2: time and I just couldn't sleep after that. Then they 377 00:22:10,476 --> 00:22:12,756 Speaker 2: said let's do a sleepover. And that was the first 378 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:15,236 Speaker 2: time when I was able to sleep because my friends 379 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:17,316 Speaker 2: just showed up and said, you know what, We're gonna 380 00:22:17,316 --> 00:22:18,356 Speaker 2: be here with you tonight. 381 00:22:18,516 --> 00:22:19,396 Speaker 1: It's very touching. 382 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:24,476 Speaker 2: And then eventually, like a few months later, I was 383 00:22:24,516 --> 00:22:27,316 Speaker 2: like in my final year off university then, and I 384 00:22:27,356 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 2: was like so overwhelmed with everything that was happening, and 385 00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:36,076 Speaker 2: I had like another major panic attack where I just 386 00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:37,476 Speaker 2: could not connect with my body. 387 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 3: And that's when. 388 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:43,516 Speaker 2: I remembered my friend had told me about a therapist, 389 00:22:44,116 --> 00:22:45,956 Speaker 2: and she told me that I should see a therapist, 390 00:22:45,996 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 2: and she told me that it is actually quite common 391 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,836 Speaker 2: for students here to see therapists. 392 00:22:52,556 --> 00:22:55,556 Speaker 3: I was like, okay, I think now is the time. 393 00:22:56,076 --> 00:22:59,996 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, Like after some point, I was like, okay, 394 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 2: I think I have to go and see what this 395 00:23:01,836 --> 00:23:05,196 Speaker 2: therapist has got for me. And in our first session, 396 00:23:05,276 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 2: I was like, here's everything about me, take it all 397 00:23:08,156 --> 00:23:10,796 Speaker 2: in and give me the meda and fix this problem. 398 00:23:11,196 --> 00:23:14,516 Speaker 2: That's when I realized that therapy is not like that. 399 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:15,636 Speaker 3: It's a process. 400 00:23:15,716 --> 00:23:18,956 Speaker 2: It takes time, and now it is a part of 401 00:23:18,996 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 2: my life. I am so grateful that I found my 402 00:23:24,716 --> 00:23:27,676 Speaker 2: way through it, and I had to accept. I had 403 00:23:27,716 --> 00:23:30,436 Speaker 2: to accept that I will never be the same old person. 404 00:23:31,276 --> 00:23:34,116 Speaker 2: This has been part of my emotional growth as well. 405 00:23:34,796 --> 00:23:37,036 Speaker 2: I had these happy and incredible days in college but 406 00:23:37,116 --> 00:23:39,076 Speaker 2: at the same time I had like the straw and 407 00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:42,876 Speaker 2: flashbacks as well. But all of that have helped me 408 00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:46,396 Speaker 2: to be true to myself, Like I feel like I 409 00:23:46,436 --> 00:23:50,116 Speaker 2: can get through more in life now. I'm more resilient, 410 00:23:50,756 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 2: and even if there's something unforeseen ahead of me, I 411 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:57,276 Speaker 2: know I can ask for help. 412 00:24:01,316 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 413 00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 1: of plans. Tell me more about how you reconciled needing 414 00:24:29,356 --> 00:24:32,276 Speaker 1: to get mental health access with your self identity as 415 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:35,916 Speaker 1: a type of person who was so strong and so 416 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:39,116 Speaker 1: determined and wouldn't need this sort of thing, because in 417 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 1: your exceptional story lies a very universal feeling which many 418 00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 1: of us have, which is well, well, I thought I 419 00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:50,356 Speaker 1: wouldn't need this sort of thing, and so how can 420 00:24:50,396 --> 00:24:53,316 Speaker 1: we think differently about ourselves in those moments? 421 00:24:54,716 --> 00:24:57,356 Speaker 2: You know, I just thought like nobody would understand me. 422 00:24:58,236 --> 00:25:01,516 Speaker 2: That's a really difficult part of it. My experience was 423 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:05,876 Speaker 2: so different, like getting attacked at fifteen, recovering from all 424 00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:09,556 Speaker 2: of that, and not having any flashbacks or panic attacks 425 00:25:09,596 --> 00:25:12,636 Speaker 2: anything for many, many years. Yes, but then it happening 426 00:25:12,676 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 2: all of a sudden much later, randomly in college. That 427 00:25:19,356 --> 00:25:23,996 Speaker 2: was the turning point. I think where I felt so 428 00:25:25,236 --> 00:25:28,116 Speaker 2: like disappointed and so embarrassed. 429 00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:33,076 Speaker 3: I was like why now, and like why these small things? 430 00:25:33,156 --> 00:25:37,196 Speaker 2: Why am I breaking down because of such like silly 431 00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:39,756 Speaker 2: small things that could cause a trigger, or that could 432 00:25:39,756 --> 00:25:43,516 Speaker 2: scare me, or that could emotionally affect me, mentally affect me, 433 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:46,316 Speaker 2: Like if I could. I just wanted to remind myself, 434 00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:49,236 Speaker 2: you're brave, you're strong, you can get up. Like I 435 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:52,596 Speaker 2: wanted my mind and everything to just like shift magically 436 00:25:52,636 --> 00:25:55,756 Speaker 2: back to normal. But you feel helpless, and that's that's 437 00:25:55,756 --> 00:25:59,876 Speaker 2: how I felt like I felt really helpless. So in therapy, 438 00:25:59,996 --> 00:26:02,836 Speaker 2: just to know that there's somebody listening to you, you 439 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:07,396 Speaker 2: don't feel alone anymore. And the therapist helped me see 440 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 2: that emotions, thoughts, feelings, and actions are all separate and different. 441 00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:19,516 Speaker 2: And when we are overwhelmed with work, with career pressure, 442 00:26:19,716 --> 00:26:23,476 Speaker 2: with you know, love pressure, deciding whether to get married 443 00:26:23,596 --> 00:26:26,876 Speaker 2: or not, or what to do after we graduate, all 444 00:26:26,916 --> 00:26:29,996 Speaker 2: of these things can be overwhelming. 445 00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:34,116 Speaker 3: And she used this word wind of tolerance. 446 00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 2: She said, we change along the way, and our window 447 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:42,676 Speaker 2: of tolerance keep expanding and contracting along the way. Sometimes 448 00:26:42,676 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 2: we can take in more, sometimes we can take in less. 449 00:26:45,756 --> 00:26:50,516 Speaker 2: And she said don't be embarrassed and disappointed that you 450 00:26:50,556 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 2: are broken inside and that you know it's normal and 451 00:26:56,156 --> 00:26:57,916 Speaker 2: it's okay and you will get through it. 452 00:26:58,316 --> 00:26:59,156 Speaker 3: Yeah. 453 00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:02,116 Speaker 1: I want to pivot now to another tension that you 454 00:27:02,196 --> 00:27:04,836 Speaker 1: describe in your book. And I love that this whole 455 00:27:04,876 --> 00:27:08,316 Speaker 1: show is about identity and reconciling the many different parts 456 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:11,116 Speaker 1: of ourselves. Yes, our heart for us to unpack. And 457 00:27:11,756 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: this tension is between your upbringing and the identity that 458 00:27:16,676 --> 00:27:20,276 Speaker 1: you were forging for yourself right as this feminist woman, 459 00:27:20,436 --> 00:27:23,996 Speaker 1: independent woman in the world. One of your earliest public 460 00:27:24,076 --> 00:27:26,956 Speaker 1: run ins with this tension came in the form of 461 00:27:26,996 --> 00:27:31,916 Speaker 1: the skinny jeans. Yes, so you chose to wear a 462 00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:34,596 Speaker 1: pair of skinny jeans while at Oxford instead of a 463 00:27:34,636 --> 00:27:39,196 Speaker 1: more traditional self archemise, which is more traditional Pakistani outfit, 464 00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 1: and the next day your photo was plastered all over 465 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,756 Speaker 1: newspapers in Pakistan, all over social media. There was this 466 00:27:48,796 --> 00:27:53,156 Speaker 1: total outcry. Can you describe the significance of that moment 467 00:27:53,396 --> 00:27:53,636 Speaker 1: for you? 468 00:27:55,196 --> 00:27:57,996 Speaker 2: There was a whole controversy about me wearing jeans and 469 00:27:58,076 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 2: it was. 470 00:28:00,076 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 3: Quite chaotic. 471 00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:04,876 Speaker 2: People who are criticizing me for wearing clothes that were 472 00:28:04,916 --> 00:28:09,556 Speaker 2: not Islamic enough for Pakistani enough for cultural enough, and 473 00:28:09,756 --> 00:28:12,076 Speaker 2: I should not be wearing skinny jeans. Why am I 474 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:16,876 Speaker 2: not wearing traditional clothes? And at that day, actually I 475 00:28:16,916 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 2: had gone for rowing, so it was a. 476 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:22,276 Speaker 3: Normal college day for me. I'm in my bobber. 477 00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:25,836 Speaker 2: Jacket, skinny jeans, I go for rowing. I realized rowing 478 00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:29,196 Speaker 2: is not for me because it requires you to get 479 00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:31,156 Speaker 2: up at five am and you need to know how 480 00:28:31,196 --> 00:28:31,756 Speaker 2: to swim, and. 481 00:28:31,716 --> 00:28:33,196 Speaker 3: I couldn't do either of those. 482 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:35,836 Speaker 2: And then I think I took a nap or something, 483 00:28:35,836 --> 00:28:38,036 Speaker 2: and then I opened my phone and there are these 484 00:28:38,076 --> 00:28:41,196 Speaker 2: tweets and messages and then are like phone calls from 485 00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:43,636 Speaker 2: my parents, and then they started talking to me and said, 486 00:28:43,676 --> 00:28:48,196 Speaker 2: oh my god, you have cast such backlash and there's 487 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 2: this whole controversy now and as if like I had 488 00:28:51,436 --> 00:28:53,756 Speaker 2: been in trouble. But I was like, what, like just 489 00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:57,916 Speaker 2: because I wore jeans in college? And I told my parents, 490 00:28:57,956 --> 00:29:02,476 Speaker 2: I said, I'm not here for some pilgrimage. I said, 491 00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:05,756 Speaker 2: this is college. I'm not here, like can I be 492 00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:06,596 Speaker 2: a normal student? 493 00:29:06,636 --> 00:29:06,956 Speaker 3: Please? 494 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:13,116 Speaker 2: But I realized that I could not really defend myself 495 00:29:13,236 --> 00:29:15,356 Speaker 2: on what I wear and what I don't want to wear. 496 00:29:15,876 --> 00:29:18,796 Speaker 2: And it's and you know, and you can't satisfy anybody. 497 00:29:18,796 --> 00:29:21,316 Speaker 2: There are people who are criticizing you because they think 498 00:29:21,556 --> 00:29:24,636 Speaker 2: you're not wearing clothes that are Islamic enough, and then 499 00:29:24,636 --> 00:29:27,316 Speaker 2: there are people who are criticizing you for still wearing 500 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 2: your headscarf. 501 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,356 Speaker 3: Absolutely nobody's going to be happy, and you just. 502 00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:35,396 Speaker 2: Get objectified and people think your clothes and everything is 503 00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 2: to satisfy what they think is right, and it's nothing 504 00:29:39,916 --> 00:29:41,876 Speaker 2: about your own choice. So for me, it's always been 505 00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:45,636 Speaker 2: about a woman's choice to decide for herself, as simple 506 00:29:45,676 --> 00:29:48,556 Speaker 2: as that, for whatever reasons, whatever she wants to wear, 507 00:29:48,876 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 2: let her wear and mind your own business. 508 00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:53,116 Speaker 3: So I remember my. 509 00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 2: Dad saying that we should maybe issue a statement, and 510 00:29:56,756 --> 00:30:00,196 Speaker 2: I was like, a statement defending what, like me wearing 511 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:03,956 Speaker 2: jeans or apologizing I will never wear jeans because I said, 512 00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,676 Speaker 2: I'm going to wear jeans because I'm in college. I 513 00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:09,036 Speaker 2: want to be like any other student. Everybody wears like 514 00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:14,716 Speaker 2: hodies or like sweatbands, and you know, like it's it's 515 00:30:14,756 --> 00:30:15,636 Speaker 2: so normal. 516 00:30:15,876 --> 00:30:18,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, well so it's so interesting, Malala. And I think 517 00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:21,396 Speaker 1: this hearkens back to an earlier part of our conversation, 518 00:30:21,516 --> 00:30:25,956 Speaker 1: because while you did resist your parents' admonitions in that moment. 519 00:30:26,716 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 1: You write in your book that there was some validity 520 00:30:29,836 --> 00:30:34,716 Speaker 1: baked into that concern. You say it was true if 521 00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 1: I wanted to promote education and equality for girls and 522 00:30:37,796 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 1: women in Pakistan, I had to be inoffensive in every way. 523 00:30:42,876 --> 00:30:46,916 Speaker 1: I felt responsible for proving that an educated girl is 524 00:30:46,956 --> 00:30:49,636 Speaker 1: not a threat. As long as I conform to my 525 00:30:49,716 --> 00:30:53,116 Speaker 1: culture's rules and dress code, no one in my community 526 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:56,036 Speaker 1: could say, look how Malala turned out. We were right 527 00:30:56,116 --> 00:30:59,596 Speaker 1: to keep a tight leash on our daughters. And so 528 00:30:59,756 --> 00:31:02,116 Speaker 1: am I reading it right that one of the pressures 529 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:05,356 Speaker 1: you felt was that you had to be the quote 530 00:31:05,476 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 1: perfect messenger in order for your work in girls' education 531 00:31:10,356 --> 00:31:11,156 Speaker 1: to be effective. 532 00:31:11,876 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it's always a trade off. 533 00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:18,956 Speaker 2: It's always this compromise you have to make. I don't 534 00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:22,916 Speaker 2: think you can win every heart and you can satisfy 535 00:31:22,996 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 2: everybody's opinions about you. 536 00:31:26,116 --> 00:31:30,556 Speaker 3: But I knew that my cultural dress, my head scuff. 537 00:31:31,876 --> 00:31:35,436 Speaker 2: Are away for people in my culture and community to 538 00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:38,876 Speaker 2: connect with me, and that they don't see education as 539 00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:42,596 Speaker 2: a threat, but they see education and women's empowerment as 540 00:31:42,636 --> 00:31:46,676 Speaker 2: something that belongs to their culture too. And you don't 541 00:31:46,716 --> 00:31:48,876 Speaker 2: have to look different. You don't have to mimic another 542 00:31:48,916 --> 00:31:54,756 Speaker 2: culture to accept these human rights and equal access and 543 00:31:55,436 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 2: education for girls, Like we have to redefine these things 544 00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:03,196 Speaker 2: in our own culture, in our own traditions. But at 545 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:05,636 Speaker 2: the same time, I was like, you know, there's always 546 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:09,076 Speaker 2: a fine line between the decisions you make for your 547 00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:12,356 Speaker 2: self for what you wear. So I think it's true, 548 00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:17,276 Speaker 2: like we cannot hide this reality that Yes, as much 549 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:20,916 Speaker 2: as we would want a world where women can choose 550 00:32:20,916 --> 00:32:24,636 Speaker 2: what they want to wear and people are not judging them, 551 00:32:24,716 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 2: but it is still true that you people look at 552 00:32:27,996 --> 00:32:30,676 Speaker 2: you how you dress, and do you represent them or not? 553 00:32:30,756 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 3: Can they relate to you or not. 554 00:32:33,116 --> 00:32:35,356 Speaker 2: So I have been saying, okay, like I'll wear my 555 00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 2: headscard because that is a way for me to stay 556 00:32:38,596 --> 00:32:41,436 Speaker 2: connected with my family. And I'm like jeans we should allow, 557 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:44,836 Speaker 2: Like jeans are not like some sort of anti Islamic 558 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 2: dress code. You know, there are so many Muslim countries 559 00:32:47,876 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 2: and they somewhere should kam me somewhere jeans somewhere. 560 00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:52,956 Speaker 3: You know, they're all very different clothes. 561 00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:56,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no sort of like Islamic enough dress code. 562 00:32:56,276 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 2: I think for me, the compromise, I'm I'm willing to 563 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:03,516 Speaker 2: make is for girls, for girls in my community that 564 00:33:03,556 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 2: they can get an education. I'm not willing to make 565 00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:11,276 Speaker 2: a compromise to make somebody happy or you know, I'm like, yes, 566 00:33:11,316 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 2: your opinion is truly correct and I'm going to address 567 00:33:13,596 --> 00:33:18,156 Speaker 2: this way. No, Sometimes we make compromises for a bigger mission. 568 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:20,356 Speaker 3: Yeah, and for me, that. 569 00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 2: Is the girls in my community in Swath and Shanghli 570 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:27,356 Speaker 2: in the north of Pakistan. The school project we are 571 00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:32,276 Speaker 2: supporting there where the first ever class graduated and these 572 00:33:32,276 --> 00:33:34,836 Speaker 2: are the first girls. And you know, it's like a 573 00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 2: big number of girls who are graduating the first ones 574 00:33:37,556 --> 00:33:39,156 Speaker 2: of their family in twenty twenty five. 575 00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:41,276 Speaker 3: They are already. 576 00:33:41,236 --> 00:33:43,916 Speaker 2: Making history and they are going to be the role 577 00:33:43,996 --> 00:33:47,356 Speaker 2: models for these generations to follow. 578 00:33:48,476 --> 00:33:50,996 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, that's extraordinary. 579 00:33:51,076 --> 00:33:54,236 Speaker 3: Sorry, So anything for them, right, Yeah? 580 00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:55,356 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 581 00:33:56,036 --> 00:34:01,236 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think seeing change happen at home is the 582 00:34:01,276 --> 00:34:02,956 Speaker 2: most rewarding experience ever. 583 00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:04,476 Speaker 3: Yeah, because you can. 584 00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:07,596 Speaker 2: Go and talk about changing the lives of girls out there. 585 00:34:07,636 --> 00:34:10,396 Speaker 2: That work is important for me. But I wanted to 586 00:34:10,516 --> 00:34:14,076 Speaker 2: see it. I wanted to see it happen right in 587 00:34:14,116 --> 00:34:16,956 Speaker 2: front of me. And I knew that the village my 588 00:34:17,036 --> 00:34:21,396 Speaker 2: parents were born is one of those places where girls do. 589 00:34:21,476 --> 00:34:22,636 Speaker 3: Not have high schools. 590 00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:25,516 Speaker 2: Hardly one or two have made it to a university. 591 00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 2: Somehow they have like escaped into other cities. But this 592 00:34:29,276 --> 00:34:30,876 Speaker 2: is going to be the first time when girls will 593 00:34:30,876 --> 00:34:34,636 Speaker 2: graduate and we're like redefining Gul's future. 594 00:34:34,636 --> 00:34:39,716 Speaker 1: There, you said something very poignant. You said, I'm willing 595 00:34:40,316 --> 00:34:44,076 Speaker 1: to compromise. I'm willing to negotiate on behalf of my 596 00:34:44,196 --> 00:34:47,676 Speaker 1: work in girls' education, on behalf of those girls, but 597 00:34:47,836 --> 00:34:50,996 Speaker 1: not to make someone happy with myself. Right with me, 598 00:34:51,836 --> 00:34:55,756 Speaker 1: It's okay if someone's upset with me, Kama Malala right 599 00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:58,036 Speaker 1: for wearing the jeans, But I would be willing to 600 00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:02,236 Speaker 1: compromise for girls. Was that clarifying for you as you 601 00:35:02,276 --> 00:35:06,476 Speaker 1: think about having to grapple with these complex choices and 602 00:35:06,556 --> 00:35:09,996 Speaker 1: trade offs as you move forward. Were you realize you 603 00:35:10,036 --> 00:35:13,356 Speaker 1: know what I'm I have the self confidence now where 604 00:35:14,116 --> 00:35:18,276 Speaker 1: I don't have to tether my own sense of value 605 00:35:18,396 --> 00:35:20,556 Speaker 1: or the contributions I make to the world with my 606 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:24,156 Speaker 1: individual choices as an individual person. 607 00:35:25,156 --> 00:35:28,516 Speaker 2: I think it's easier to say it, it's hard to 608 00:35:28,556 --> 00:35:32,716 Speaker 2: implement it. Because we experience moments when we are so 609 00:35:32,796 --> 00:35:37,476 Speaker 2: influenced by our culture, by our family that we get 610 00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:42,756 Speaker 2: stuck in that small bubble and I experienced that when 611 00:35:43,836 --> 00:35:46,636 Speaker 2: you know, I said a few things about marriage. So 612 00:35:46,676 --> 00:35:51,956 Speaker 2: there was this British Vogue cover about me, and I 613 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:54,956 Speaker 2: was so excited to like be on the British Vogue 614 00:35:54,956 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 2: front page. I was like, this is insane. And I 615 00:35:57,796 --> 00:36:00,276 Speaker 2: remember the journalist asking me about so many things, and 616 00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:01,596 Speaker 2: then she brought up marriage. 617 00:36:02,076 --> 00:36:04,476 Speaker 3: I was like, what marriage, Like why why do you 618 00:36:04,476 --> 00:36:04,996 Speaker 3: want to ask me? 619 00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:08,756 Speaker 2: Because at the time I was dating my now husband, 620 00:36:11,276 --> 00:36:14,036 Speaker 2: So in that moment, I immediately said, oh, well, you know, 621 00:36:14,996 --> 00:36:16,996 Speaker 2: I don't know, like why do we have to get married? 622 00:36:16,996 --> 00:36:20,116 Speaker 2: Why can't we just have a partnership, some agreement between 623 00:36:20,116 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 2: two people. 624 00:36:20,556 --> 00:36:22,796 Speaker 3: But this marriage thing is just too heavy, It's too much. 625 00:36:24,476 --> 00:36:29,596 Speaker 2: When that article came out, there was a whole different controversy, 626 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:35,276 Speaker 2: and the trolling was insane because people were framing it 627 00:36:35,316 --> 00:36:40,036 Speaker 2: as me being against marriage and me being against the 628 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:44,916 Speaker 2: religious Islamic like Nika ceremony, and somehow that I was 629 00:36:44,916 --> 00:36:50,436 Speaker 2: like promoting adultery and like it was just like disgusting, 630 00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:52,476 Speaker 2: Like when I was seeing the responses, like what are 631 00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:55,996 Speaker 2: you guys like talking about or like I'm just promoting 632 00:36:56,036 --> 00:37:00,636 Speaker 2: like some obscene stuff. Anyway, I remember how mad my 633 00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:04,076 Speaker 2: mom and dad were, especially my mom. She said, I 634 00:37:04,076 --> 00:37:06,956 Speaker 2: wish you had never said anything. And it's really hard 635 00:37:06,956 --> 00:37:10,196 Speaker 2: to process because you're like, you know, I can't undo it, 636 00:37:10,316 --> 00:37:13,996 Speaker 2: you know, the pieces out, I can't take my words back. 637 00:37:13,996 --> 00:37:15,716 Speaker 3: Well, why do I have to take my words back? 638 00:37:15,836 --> 00:37:17,356 Speaker 3: I am twenty three. 639 00:37:17,636 --> 00:37:19,636 Speaker 2: I know I'm seeing a guy, but i can't talk 640 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:21,996 Speaker 2: about it publicly yet because I'm still like figuring out 641 00:37:22,036 --> 00:37:23,996 Speaker 2: if he is the one for me or not, and 642 00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:28,516 Speaker 2: if I'm ready for marriage or not. But women should 643 00:37:28,556 --> 00:37:32,996 Speaker 2: have the right to question these institutions. And I knew 644 00:37:32,996 --> 00:37:35,636 Speaker 2: I had so much privilege and all of that, and 645 00:37:35,156 --> 00:37:37,876 Speaker 2: I knew everything about my rights, and I had an 646 00:37:37,876 --> 00:37:40,116 Speaker 2: income and all of that, but I was still worried 647 00:37:40,156 --> 00:37:44,756 Speaker 2: about what marriage actually means to women, how much they lose, 648 00:37:45,116 --> 00:37:49,636 Speaker 2: how their career shifts. The more you look into it, 649 00:37:49,676 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 2: you realize, like, it's not just a problem in the 650 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:55,356 Speaker 2: global South. It's a challenge everywhere where women have to 651 00:37:55,436 --> 00:37:59,996 Speaker 2: make a lot more compromises and lose a lot along 652 00:37:59,996 --> 00:38:03,316 Speaker 2: the way from you know, even their earnings to their 653 00:38:03,356 --> 00:38:07,236 Speaker 2: career journey all of that. So I was just panicking 654 00:38:07,236 --> 00:38:09,996 Speaker 2: a bit about marriage and I loved the guy and 655 00:38:10,076 --> 00:38:11,676 Speaker 2: knew he was the right one for me, but I 656 00:38:11,676 --> 00:38:14,396 Speaker 2: was like a marriage, Like, you know, we have to 657 00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:21,156 Speaker 2: acknowledge the fact that marriage is a reality where girls 658 00:38:21,156 --> 00:38:26,676 Speaker 2: have lost their future. So many girls are married without 659 00:38:26,836 --> 00:38:30,716 Speaker 2: their permission, and a lot of them are married underage. 660 00:38:31,076 --> 00:38:34,076 Speaker 2: And I remembered my own friend in school who was 661 00:38:34,076 --> 00:38:37,836 Speaker 2: eleven years old who disappeared from school, and I found 662 00:38:37,836 --> 00:38:41,516 Speaker 2: out many years later that she was married off without 663 00:38:41,676 --> 00:38:45,356 Speaker 2: her choice, and she had two kids when she was 664 00:38:45,356 --> 00:38:49,596 Speaker 2: still a child herself. So these things are heartbreaking. This 665 00:38:49,836 --> 00:38:52,756 Speaker 2: is something we cannot look away from. This is a reality. 666 00:38:52,836 --> 00:38:54,436 Speaker 2: So because of all of that, I was. 667 00:38:55,756 --> 00:38:57,956 Speaker 3: Just overthinking about marriage. 668 00:38:58,476 --> 00:39:02,876 Speaker 2: And when I look back, I do not regret it 669 00:39:02,876 --> 00:39:05,636 Speaker 2: for a second that I took my time and I 670 00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:08,876 Speaker 2: thought about it, and I started reading like books and 671 00:39:09,156 --> 00:39:15,556 Speaker 2: articles like Chimmanda Adichi or Bill Hoax and Tory Alderton, 672 00:39:15,676 --> 00:39:17,996 Speaker 2: and I'm just like forgetting the names. I was reading 673 00:39:17,996 --> 00:39:20,756 Speaker 2: like all of these books about love and marriage and 674 00:39:21,756 --> 00:39:25,916 Speaker 2: how feminist women are talking about it, and my friends 675 00:39:25,916 --> 00:39:28,596 Speaker 2: and I were just debating about these things every day. 676 00:39:29,796 --> 00:39:30,876 Speaker 2: And I was speaking to. 677 00:39:30,836 --> 00:39:32,996 Speaker 3: My mom as well for the first time. 678 00:39:32,876 --> 00:39:35,716 Speaker 2: To hear hard thoughts about what marriage meant to her, 679 00:39:36,076 --> 00:39:39,316 Speaker 2: But that was all part of the learning process before 680 00:39:39,356 --> 00:39:41,596 Speaker 2: I could decide to get married or not. 681 00:39:41,956 --> 00:39:45,796 Speaker 1: Yeah, what ultimately influenced your decision to say yes, you 682 00:39:45,836 --> 00:39:46,676 Speaker 1: do want to get married. 683 00:39:49,916 --> 00:39:52,116 Speaker 2: I knew that I was ready to get married when 684 00:39:52,356 --> 00:39:56,316 Speaker 2: I spent time with us er, when it was just 685 00:39:56,356 --> 00:40:00,156 Speaker 2: the two of us, and I just realized that we. 686 00:40:00,116 --> 00:40:01,596 Speaker 3: Were having the best time together. 687 00:40:02,076 --> 00:40:04,556 Speaker 2: We would go on a hike and listen to music 688 00:40:04,716 --> 00:40:08,516 Speaker 2: and play card games or poker, and I beat him 689 00:40:08,516 --> 00:40:12,236 Speaker 2: in that. Initially, I thought I would ask him dozens 690 00:40:12,316 --> 00:40:14,996 Speaker 2: of questions and I will like make sure, like you know, 691 00:40:16,516 --> 00:40:18,876 Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know when you feel like I just 692 00:40:18,916 --> 00:40:21,316 Speaker 2: need to know everything about this guy. Like it's not 693 00:40:21,556 --> 00:40:23,636 Speaker 2: like I'm not going to miss anything. I'm watching you. 694 00:40:24,196 --> 00:40:26,636 Speaker 2: What you think about this? And what are your opinions 695 00:40:26,676 --> 00:40:29,516 Speaker 2: about women working? And what is your opinion about a 696 00:40:29,556 --> 00:40:33,516 Speaker 2: woman earning more than men? And silly questions, right, But 697 00:40:33,636 --> 00:40:36,836 Speaker 2: I think you have to ask them because you know, 698 00:40:36,956 --> 00:40:39,956 Speaker 2: Dahl like you just never know what they say. He 699 00:40:40,076 --> 00:40:42,436 Speaker 2: was giving very sensible answers. He was saying, if a 700 00:40:42,476 --> 00:40:45,356 Speaker 2: woman earns more than the husband, she's like, wow, what 701 00:40:45,396 --> 00:40:45,876 Speaker 2: a blessing. 702 00:40:47,476 --> 00:40:49,156 Speaker 3: I was like, okay, here's a good sense of humor 703 00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:49,596 Speaker 3: as well. 704 00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:53,996 Speaker 2: But by the end of that trip I didn't need 705 00:40:53,996 --> 00:40:56,676 Speaker 2: to ask him any question at all. I knew he 706 00:40:56,756 --> 00:40:59,596 Speaker 2: was the one. I felt it, and I was like, yeah, 707 00:40:59,716 --> 00:41:02,516 Speaker 2: I am happier with this guy. And this is what 708 00:41:02,596 --> 00:41:06,236 Speaker 2: I tell to people about marriage, that you don't have 709 00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:08,476 Speaker 2: to get married, you can still think about it. I 710 00:41:08,796 --> 00:41:11,596 Speaker 2: don't tell anybody you you know you should or you shouldn't. 711 00:41:11,636 --> 00:41:13,636 Speaker 2: I don't have any opinion. I think everybody should do 712 00:41:13,676 --> 00:41:17,276 Speaker 2: their research on it. But whoever you choose to be with, 713 00:41:18,756 --> 00:41:22,196 Speaker 2: your life should be happier than before. 714 00:41:23,516 --> 00:41:25,676 Speaker 1: You you're writing your book that well, it's part of 715 00:41:25,676 --> 00:41:27,876 Speaker 1: this line of questioning, right, making sure that you talk 716 00:41:27,956 --> 00:41:32,596 Speaker 1: to that gender dynamics and power and whatnot. You reveal 717 00:41:32,716 --> 00:41:36,116 Speaker 1: that you don't want kids, by the way, I want 718 00:41:36,156 --> 00:41:37,676 Speaker 1: to be careful I say this correctly. So is it 719 00:41:37,716 --> 00:41:39,316 Speaker 1: that you don't want kids or you don't want kids 720 00:41:39,356 --> 00:41:42,876 Speaker 1: right now? And you're not sure? I don't want no. 721 00:41:42,996 --> 00:41:45,196 Speaker 2: It's like, I know we don't want to create any conversiy, 722 00:41:45,316 --> 00:41:47,476 Speaker 2: but but I don't know. 723 00:41:47,516 --> 00:41:49,756 Speaker 3: It's like if somebody asked me, I'm like, what kids? 724 00:41:49,796 --> 00:41:52,876 Speaker 2: What are you talking about, Like that's it changes everything, right, 725 00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:56,196 Speaker 2: And I love kids like you know, and kids love 726 00:41:56,236 --> 00:41:58,236 Speaker 2: me too, Like I have the best time like with kids, 727 00:41:58,276 --> 00:42:00,876 Speaker 2: but it's just like having your own kid. Yes, that 728 00:42:00,996 --> 00:42:03,436 Speaker 2: changes your life completely, and it's it's just I'm like. 729 00:42:04,356 --> 00:42:06,276 Speaker 3: You know, when the time comes, I don't know. I 730 00:42:06,276 --> 00:42:06,636 Speaker 3: don't know. 731 00:42:07,196 --> 00:42:11,476 Speaker 1: I for what it's worth. I found it so refreshing 732 00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:15,276 Speaker 1: to hear you say, at least you're writing your book. 733 00:42:15,956 --> 00:42:18,916 Speaker 1: You told him I don't want kids at least right now, 734 00:42:18,956 --> 00:42:19,716 Speaker 1: I don't want kids. 735 00:42:19,796 --> 00:42:20,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, he needs to know. 736 00:42:20,916 --> 00:42:23,916 Speaker 1: Yes, he needed to know that, and he needed to 737 00:42:23,956 --> 00:42:24,756 Speaker 1: be okay with that. 738 00:42:24,956 --> 00:42:28,796 Speaker 2: Yes, Like if that ever happens, he should know that 739 00:42:28,796 --> 00:42:31,636 Speaker 2: that is one reality exactly, and that if he's not 740 00:42:31,636 --> 00:42:34,076 Speaker 2: comfortable with it, he should talk to me now, because 741 00:42:34,756 --> 00:42:36,756 Speaker 2: I don't want to face any pressure later on. 742 00:42:36,996 --> 00:42:39,516 Speaker 1: What does it feel like to rebel against some of 743 00:42:39,556 --> 00:42:43,636 Speaker 1: these very ingrained norms. So, speaking from personal experience, I 744 00:42:43,676 --> 00:42:46,716 Speaker 1: don't have kids, but I was absolutely raised to feel like, 745 00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:50,836 Speaker 1: from just cultural influences, that my self worth is contingent 746 00:42:50,996 --> 00:42:55,436 Speaker 1: upon creating children, Like that was a fundamental part of 747 00:42:55,476 --> 00:42:58,796 Speaker 1: my identity. And so I'm curious to know whether there's 748 00:42:58,836 --> 00:43:02,396 Speaker 1: something empowering about just coming forth and saying no, I 749 00:43:02,436 --> 00:43:05,356 Speaker 1: am questioning these norms and I am asking myself whether 750 00:43:05,396 --> 00:43:06,036 Speaker 1: they're right for me. 751 00:43:07,756 --> 00:43:10,116 Speaker 2: For me, it's always been about taking your time to 752 00:43:10,196 --> 00:43:15,556 Speaker 2: think through it and making that decision when you feel comfortable, 753 00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:20,156 Speaker 2: when you are ready for it. So about marriage, I 754 00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:22,476 Speaker 2: took my time, I took a long time. I made 755 00:43:22,556 --> 00:43:24,276 Speaker 2: us or wait, and I said, if you truly love me, 756 00:43:24,316 --> 00:43:29,996 Speaker 2: you will wait for me. So yeah, And I think 757 00:43:30,276 --> 00:43:32,836 Speaker 2: in terms of like decisions in the future, when the 758 00:43:32,876 --> 00:43:34,156 Speaker 2: moment is right, we will know. 759 00:43:34,636 --> 00:43:37,036 Speaker 3: But I just don't want to think about it right now. 760 00:43:38,116 --> 00:43:41,836 Speaker 1: When you think back to the version of you in 761 00:43:41,916 --> 00:43:45,076 Speaker 1: high school who had lost herself, and then the version 762 00:43:45,116 --> 00:43:47,876 Speaker 1: of you who is discovering herself in college, and the 763 00:43:47,956 --> 00:43:54,076 Speaker 1: version of you now that's discovering yourself and the public 764 00:43:54,156 --> 00:43:57,436 Speaker 1: image of Malala and the expectations the world has for you, 765 00:43:58,076 --> 00:44:01,676 Speaker 1: what is your guide as you move forward and have 766 00:44:01,756 --> 00:44:08,116 Speaker 1: to make decisions that either prioritize yourself, prioritize others or expectations, 767 00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:13,796 Speaker 1: oritize your advocacy work. Because while almost no one will 768 00:44:13,836 --> 00:44:17,476 Speaker 1: face the exact pressures you face, everyone has some version 769 00:44:17,596 --> 00:44:20,116 Speaker 1: of this tension in their life, right, they all will 770 00:44:20,116 --> 00:44:23,156 Speaker 1: face some version of these trade offs. So how do 771 00:44:23,196 --> 00:44:23,916 Speaker 1: you think about that? 772 00:44:26,316 --> 00:44:28,276 Speaker 2: Wow, I think there's a lot to unfold and a 773 00:44:28,316 --> 00:44:31,836 Speaker 2: lot to share. I can share a few things from 774 00:44:31,876 --> 00:44:35,956 Speaker 2: my personal experiences. I think the first one is you 775 00:44:36,036 --> 00:44:39,636 Speaker 2: have to be true to yourself. It is so hard 776 00:44:39,676 --> 00:44:45,036 Speaker 2: to maintain and continue through your life if you're not 777 00:44:45,036 --> 00:44:47,716 Speaker 2: true to yourself. So like, listen to your heart, listen 778 00:44:47,716 --> 00:44:51,876 Speaker 2: to your feelings. They're telling you something, because when you don't, 779 00:44:52,476 --> 00:44:55,636 Speaker 2: you don't realize and all of a sudden, it's all 780 00:44:56,836 --> 00:45:00,876 Speaker 2: over you and it can break you down. So I'm like, 781 00:45:01,116 --> 00:45:04,116 Speaker 2: just make sure like you are taking care of yourself. 782 00:45:05,476 --> 00:45:08,516 Speaker 2: I still remember, like I just thought sleep wasn't for me, 783 00:45:09,116 --> 00:45:10,916 Speaker 2: thinking water and no, I don't have time for this. 784 00:45:11,636 --> 00:45:16,236 Speaker 2: It wasn't eating well, and somehow I thought that, you know, 785 00:45:16,316 --> 00:45:20,436 Speaker 2: my work means just work only like nothing that is 786 00:45:20,476 --> 00:45:23,676 Speaker 2: outside work. But I realized that I was actually not 787 00:45:23,796 --> 00:45:26,796 Speaker 2: doing well in my work when I was not taking 788 00:45:26,836 --> 00:45:29,796 Speaker 2: care of myself. And it was also connected with mental 789 00:45:29,796 --> 00:45:33,996 Speaker 2: health as well. So you know, started eating better. I 790 00:45:34,116 --> 00:45:36,916 Speaker 2: drink a lot more water, you know, we have water here, 791 00:45:38,116 --> 00:45:42,436 Speaker 2: and I go for a run, I walk I try 792 00:45:42,476 --> 00:45:48,116 Speaker 2: different sports because these things just helped me unwind and 793 00:45:48,596 --> 00:45:50,996 Speaker 2: relax a bit, and it just I think it's a 794 00:45:51,036 --> 00:45:54,396 Speaker 2: good way to like make sure that you're looking after yourself. 795 00:45:55,076 --> 00:45:57,796 Speaker 2: And then sometimes I just remember what my therapist told me, 796 00:45:57,956 --> 00:46:00,596 Speaker 2: like if you're having that moment when it's too overwhelming 797 00:46:00,756 --> 00:46:04,956 Speaker 2: and you have that anxiety, just put your hand on 798 00:46:04,996 --> 00:46:10,436 Speaker 2: your heart and taking a deep breath seven seconds inhale, 799 00:46:10,676 --> 00:46:12,876 Speaker 2: eleven seconds exhale, and. 800 00:46:13,276 --> 00:46:13,996 Speaker 3: Take your time. 801 00:46:15,836 --> 00:46:17,796 Speaker 2: So I don't know what's ahead. I'm doing a lot 802 00:46:17,876 --> 00:46:21,916 Speaker 2: of things that I'm excited about. My focuses on things 803 00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:24,556 Speaker 2: through which we can empower girls. We can give them 804 00:46:24,596 --> 00:46:28,396 Speaker 2: the right to education, we can create more opportunities for them. 805 00:46:28,676 --> 00:46:31,316 Speaker 2: I'm really passionate about women's sports, so that's a project 806 00:46:31,316 --> 00:46:34,436 Speaker 2: my husband and I are working together on. I love 807 00:46:34,476 --> 00:46:39,396 Speaker 2: bringing women's stories to screens and just making sure that 808 00:46:39,476 --> 00:46:41,676 Speaker 2: women and girls are not just talked about, but they 809 00:46:41,756 --> 00:46:45,316 Speaker 2: have the real power, that they have platforms, they have tools, 810 00:46:45,316 --> 00:46:48,756 Speaker 2: they have resources, Like that's when the real change happens. 811 00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:52,996 Speaker 2: So we're investing in their long term through education, through sports, 812 00:46:53,036 --> 00:46:55,516 Speaker 2: and you know, we're creating opportunities for them. 813 00:46:55,916 --> 00:46:57,476 Speaker 3: That is my vision. 814 00:46:57,556 --> 00:47:01,316 Speaker 2: So yeah, like in this book I talk about how 815 00:47:01,356 --> 00:47:03,956 Speaker 2: I want to see a better world for girls. I 816 00:47:03,996 --> 00:47:06,196 Speaker 2: know there have been many setbacks as well, including in 817 00:47:06,196 --> 00:47:11,076 Speaker 2: Afghanistan where gulls are banned from education. Even recently, the 818 00:47:11,076 --> 00:47:14,876 Speaker 2: Taliban said that they're gonna ban internet, so that is 819 00:47:14,956 --> 00:47:18,436 Speaker 2: limiting the alternative education programs that we are supporting through 820 00:47:18,476 --> 00:47:21,996 Speaker 2: Malala Fund. These issues affect me like they affect me emotionally. 821 00:47:22,716 --> 00:47:24,516 Speaker 2: I know I want to sound like a brave girl, 822 00:47:24,556 --> 00:47:27,036 Speaker 2: but you know, when the Taliban took over, I was 823 00:47:27,116 --> 00:47:31,916 Speaker 2: receiving my last surgery for my facial symmetry, and when 824 00:47:31,916 --> 00:47:35,676 Speaker 2: I was giving a speech about advocating for Afghan women 825 00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:39,276 Speaker 2: in South Africa at the Nesser Mandela Lecture, and I 826 00:47:39,316 --> 00:47:42,596 Speaker 2: was talking about how what's happening there should be recognized 827 00:47:42,636 --> 00:47:46,036 Speaker 2: as a gender apartheid and the Taliban should be held accountable. 828 00:47:46,076 --> 00:47:49,316 Speaker 2: We need more pressure. I had a panic attack in 829 00:47:49,756 --> 00:47:52,556 Speaker 2: a hotel when like everything, all events, everything was done, 830 00:47:52,596 --> 00:47:54,956 Speaker 2: and I was like, I was not scared on the stage, 831 00:47:55,636 --> 00:47:58,516 Speaker 2: everything was fine in the interviews, but in the middle 832 00:47:58,516 --> 00:48:04,716 Speaker 2: of the night, I can't breathe. My body is like shaking, 833 00:48:05,036 --> 00:48:08,356 Speaker 2: and I don't know if I'm gonna be alive or not. 834 00:48:08,516 --> 00:48:12,356 Speaker 2: Am I gonna like what is happening? My husband was 835 00:48:12,396 --> 00:48:14,676 Speaker 2: there for me the whole night and he supported me. 836 00:48:14,756 --> 00:48:18,156 Speaker 2: But it's just a reminder that in the end, like 837 00:48:18,196 --> 00:48:24,676 Speaker 2: we're humans, we're not that strong all the time. It 838 00:48:24,716 --> 00:48:28,116 Speaker 2: also made me reflect on what true bravery means, and 839 00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:32,516 Speaker 2: bravery truly is when you stand up despite. 840 00:48:33,596 --> 00:48:34,956 Speaker 3: The hardest moments you face. 841 00:48:35,436 --> 00:48:38,676 Speaker 2: True bravery is when you get up when you feel 842 00:48:38,716 --> 00:48:43,436 Speaker 2: like you will never be able to stand. True bravery 843 00:48:43,556 --> 00:48:46,356 Speaker 2: is when you overcome all of these challenges and you're 844 00:48:47,156 --> 00:48:48,316 Speaker 2: and you still continue and. 845 00:48:48,276 --> 00:48:51,716 Speaker 3: Do the work. Yeah. So for me was you know, yeah, 846 00:48:51,756 --> 00:48:52,676 Speaker 3: I had a panic attack. 847 00:48:52,716 --> 00:48:55,556 Speaker 2: But I will move on, I'll ask for help, I'll 848 00:48:55,556 --> 00:48:59,276 Speaker 2: go see my therapist again, and I will continue advocating 849 00:48:59,276 --> 00:49:02,396 Speaker 2: for Afghan women and girls. I feel truly brave when 850 00:49:02,396 --> 00:49:06,876 Speaker 2: I don't give up, when I don't let myself break down. 851 00:49:08,316 --> 00:49:11,516 Speaker 1: Your memoir, it seems like an effort for you to 852 00:49:11,556 --> 00:49:16,236 Speaker 1: reclaim your story, right to say I know who the 853 00:49:16,276 --> 00:49:19,156 Speaker 1: world thinks I am, that this is actually who I am. Right, 854 00:49:19,156 --> 00:49:22,876 Speaker 1: here's who I actually am. What do you hope people 855 00:49:23,756 --> 00:49:27,396 Speaker 1: understand about you after reading this book that they perhaps 856 00:49:27,476 --> 00:49:28,676 Speaker 1: never appreciated before? 857 00:49:29,516 --> 00:49:33,476 Speaker 2: Oh, I think people find out that I'm a funny person. 858 00:49:34,156 --> 00:49:36,716 Speaker 1: You are very funny and very mischievous. 859 00:49:37,036 --> 00:49:39,516 Speaker 2: Yes, and that you know that was me, That was 860 00:49:39,676 --> 00:49:42,596 Speaker 2: the actual Malala when I was a kid. But I 861 00:49:42,636 --> 00:49:45,796 Speaker 2: am reclaiming that part of me. I haven't figured it 862 00:49:45,836 --> 00:49:48,236 Speaker 2: all out, but that is the reality, you know, Like 863 00:49:48,276 --> 00:49:51,836 Speaker 2: we all find our way, and this is my hope 864 00:49:51,836 --> 00:49:55,476 Speaker 2: for everybody else that we all realize that we will 865 00:49:55,916 --> 00:49:58,596 Speaker 2: find a way through it. And this process I was 866 00:49:58,636 --> 00:50:01,236 Speaker 2: like reconnecting to every part of me and I'm just 867 00:50:01,276 --> 00:50:04,836 Speaker 2: so happy with how it has all come together. I 868 00:50:04,876 --> 00:50:07,356 Speaker 2: cannot wait for people to read it. I want them 869 00:50:07,396 --> 00:50:10,196 Speaker 2: to know me beyond you know, the the fifteen year old. 870 00:50:10,116 --> 00:50:13,036 Speaker 3: Malala who was defined by the world. 871 00:50:13,156 --> 00:50:16,316 Speaker 2: But this is the first time that I am reintroducing 872 00:50:16,356 --> 00:50:39,476 Speaker 2: myself and redefining my story. 873 00:50:40,436 --> 00:50:43,356 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Just a reminder that 874 00:50:43,396 --> 00:50:45,916 Speaker 1: we're trying something new here on the Slight Change team. 875 00:50:46,636 --> 00:50:50,036 Speaker 1: We're now releasing full video versions of some of our episodes, 876 00:50:50,116 --> 00:50:53,756 Speaker 1: including this one. You can watch my conversation with Malala 877 00:50:53,796 --> 00:50:58,116 Speaker 1: on YouTube or at pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. 878 00:50:58,516 --> 00:51:02,876 Speaker 1: That's Pushkin dot fm slash slight Change. I'd love to 879 00:51:02,916 --> 00:51:04,716 Speaker 1: know what you think of these videos and if you'd 880 00:51:04,756 --> 00:51:06,916 Speaker 1: like to see more. You can reach out to me 881 00:51:06,956 --> 00:51:10,476 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker or send an email 882 00:51:10,516 --> 00:51:13,876 Speaker 1: to Slight Change at pushkin dot fm. And don't forget 883 00:51:13,876 --> 00:51:17,316 Speaker 1: to pre order my new book, The Other Side of Change. 884 00:51:17,476 --> 00:51:20,756 Speaker 1: You can find it at Changewithmaya dot com slash book 885 00:51:21,476 --> 00:51:23,716 Speaker 1: and join me next time when I talk to therapists. 886 00:51:23,716 --> 00:51:26,516 Speaker 1: Meg Josephson, author of the book, Are you mad at me? 887 00:51:27,196 --> 00:51:30,156 Speaker 1: About how we become people pleasers? How it hurts our 888 00:51:30,196 --> 00:51:32,556 Speaker 1: mental health and what we can do about it. 889 00:51:33,036 --> 00:51:36,076 Speaker 4: If you're upset with me, I can't feel okay until 890 00:51:36,196 --> 00:51:39,356 Speaker 4: we're good again, Like I need to know that you're 891 00:51:39,396 --> 00:51:43,236 Speaker 4: not upset with me before I can breathe again, because 892 00:51:43,316 --> 00:51:45,916 Speaker 4: it's just so all consuming and it leads us to 893 00:51:45,956 --> 00:51:48,156 Speaker 4: feeling like I don't know who I am, I don't 894 00:51:48,196 --> 00:51:50,236 Speaker 4: know what my preferences are, I don't know what my 895 00:51:50,276 --> 00:51:53,556 Speaker 4: interests are because we've been trained to be hyper attuned 896 00:51:53,556 --> 00:51:57,036 Speaker 4: to what everyone else wants and thinks and feels and needs. 897 00:51:58,196 --> 00:52:01,076 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans, See 898 00:52:01,116 --> 00:52:04,996 Speaker 1: you again. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written 899 00:52:05,076 --> 00:52:08,596 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 900 00:52:08,636 --> 00:52:12,716 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate 901 00:52:12,796 --> 00:52:17,356 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producers Britney Cronin and Megan Lubin, and 902 00:52:17,396 --> 00:52:21,676 Speaker 1: our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful 903 00:52:21,716 --> 00:52:25,076 Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 904 00:52:25,076 --> 00:52:28,276 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 905 00:52:28,396 --> 00:52:31,396 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, and of course a 906 00:52:31,596 --> 00:52:34,716 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A 907 00:52:34,716 --> 00:52:37,956 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Mayah Schunker. 908 00:52:38,196 --> 00:52:38,996 Speaker 1: See you next week