Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel Scheffler, and this is everywhere Today's travel commandment,
Speaker 1: thou shalt ignore thy smartphone as much as I rely
Speaker 1: on my smartphone for you know, pretty much everything all
Speaker 1: the time. They are these instances where I think I
Speaker 1: would just like to throw this device into the Hudson
Speaker 1: River and live a simple life without it. I know
Speaker 1: I'm not alone when I say this. Now, let's imagine
Speaker 1: the phone free life of a travel writer like me.
Speaker 1: First off, maybe I should check if those old school
Speaker 1: internet cafes still operate all over the globe. Next up,
Speaker 1: imagine me slipping bundles of printed boarding passes around. I'd
Speaker 1: actually have to hail a real yellow cab without an
Speaker 1: umer app, so that will be something old that's new again.
Speaker 1: But how will I tell my husband we've bought it,
Speaker 1: and now we're pushing back, and now we're taxing, and
Speaker 1: now we're taking off. I'd have to save my hotel
Speaker 1: addresses and reservations in print them out, like my great
Speaker 1: aunt used to do in this giant leather folder which
Speaker 1: she carried everywhere with her on trips. Or maybe I
Speaker 1: need a very chic, oversized lanyard with all my paperwork
Speaker 1: then again, I could get nicely lost on purpose with
Speaker 1: just a paper map or even no map. Believe me,
Speaker 1: a little part of me finds all of this rather thrilling.
Speaker 1: Let's call it low tech high tech. I think this
Speaker 1: all the time. Technology will save us, but not before
Speaker 1: it destroys us. When it comes to travel, my feelings
Speaker 1: are quite specific as someone who's not on social media,
Speaker 1: and yes, you heard me correctly, no social media whatsoever.
Speaker 1: I happen to now have an everywhere podcast Instagram page,
Speaker 1: but hey, that's just work. Recently, my high school brother
Speaker 1: said to me, maybe you don't exist, and I really
Speaker 1: like that. I did social when it came out years ago.
Speaker 1: I used it, abused it, and then for about ten
Speaker 1: years or so, I've cut it all off cold turkey.
Speaker 1: My compulsive nature and my deep desire for real in
Speaker 1: the moment right now experiences were simply too strong to deny,
Speaker 1: and I'm a happier human for it. Recently I counted
Speaker 1: twenty travel writers, slash bloggers, slash influences who died in
Speaker 1: ten from trying to capture the best image for their
Speaker 1: social channels. Nearly two dozen people died for what exactly.
Speaker 1: Every time someone shows me the idyllic beach photo, or
Speaker 1: that picture perfect yoga position photo on top of a camel,
Speaker 1: or another plate of over stylized food. You know the
Speaker 1: ones I just think, were you actually there? Or were
Speaker 1: you just posing? Sometimes at a work lunch, when I'm
Speaker 1: just about to tuck into my salad and I'm starving,
Speaker 1: I get told to wait as it's being photographed by
Speaker 1: a fucking influencer. What kind of life is this that
Speaker 1: every moment needs to be memorialized? I have to wonder. Luckily,
Speaker 1: I've had some practice. Spending a month in Japan with
Speaker 1: Mother showed me just how to do less phone and
Speaker 1: more life in the now, the right now. So let
Speaker 1: me tell you about Mother. I often describe her as
Speaker 1: the sweetest, smartest, funniest, happiest aunt everyone should wish for.
Speaker 1: If she was a believer of reincarnation, I'd say she
Speaker 1: was in her last life, having learned every less impossible,
Speaker 1: having finally reached that evasive, sneaky thing they call enlightenment.
Speaker 1: She wants for nothing, she judges absolutely nobody, and she
Speaker 1: lives very simply. It's beyond inspiring. But more importantly certain
Speaker 1: for me is that she is the type of traveler who,
Speaker 1: after she breaks her foot on the Otter Trail in
Speaker 1: South Africa, just keeps going. She walks the remaining twenty
Speaker 1: miles without a complaint. If she wasn't so skinny, I
Speaker 1: think she would have made it big in the Mossad,
Speaker 1: Israel's special forces. She's also the type of traveler who's
Speaker 1: not interested in driving around cities and a fancy black
Speaker 1: car seeing things from behind a window. Nope. She puts
Speaker 1: on a pair of sneakers, walks every block, every nook
Speaker 1: and cranny. Plus she greets and chats to everyone she
Speaker 1: comes across, from the president of an African state I've
Speaker 1: never heard of to the Mr. Delivery guy holding her
Speaker 1: take out. So of course Japan is perfect for her.
Speaker 1: Everyone is as polite as she is, and walking all
Speaker 1: over is so much part of the culture that she
Speaker 1: fits right in. Although she towers over everyone, she graciously
Speaker 1: bows right down to chat. Traveling with Mother is always
Speaker 1: the most fun any human can have. She's up for anything, like,
Speaker 1: let's not google this at all, but go and find
Speaker 1: out where the birthplace of Pearls could be. And we did.
Speaker 1: It's a little prefecture called Mia, just a few hours
Speaker 1: south of Tokyo, where only female divers were entrusted to
Speaker 1: find pearls. I see how Mother's eyes are filled with
Speaker 1: magic as she learns how to use a vending machine
Speaker 1: to purchase anything imaginable. So, of course we turn this
Speaker 1: into a game, something that almost every situation calls for.
Speaker 1: It started with what is the strangest item we could
Speaker 1: get from a vending machine. I of course thought I
Speaker 1: had one when I found a vending machine with little
Speaker 1: doors revealing puppies, but Mother one upped me when she
Speaker 1: discovered live goldfish, spiders, and even pet snakes. We were
Speaker 1: really not into the dirty underwear vending machines or the
Speaker 1: ones dispensing dry ice, but Mother won our competition hands
Speaker 1: down with her unearthing of a vending machine that dispenses
Speaker 1: doggy wigs. Because you know that day when you're out
Speaker 1: and about and your pop urgently needs a costume change
Speaker 1: or maybe a disguise. We didn't tweet about this or
Speaker 1: instagram this moment. We just saved it just for ourselves,
Speaker 1: and it was so indulgent. Well, we really got into
Speaker 1: the vending machine thing. We ate entire six course meals
Speaker 1: under bridges in Tokyo, all from vending machines. We also
Speaker 1: managed to buy an enormous inflatable pool swan. By mistake,
Speaker 1: Mother just wanted a new iPhone charger, but she was thrilled. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: at some point in Kyoto, since it was freezing one day,
Speaker 1: we bought matching Harajuku girls pink sweaters with thirteen bunnies
Speaker 1: sewn onto them. I got an extra large and she
Speaker 1: got a small. We were twinsies in guess what. We
Speaker 1: didn't need to photograph this. We just lived it and
Speaker 1: laughed it. There was no Facebook. Mother rocked her new look.
Speaker 1: It wasn't really my color. Besides for visiting some of
Speaker 1: the oldest temples in Kyoto with Mother or eating our
Speaker 1: palid cleanser sherbet from our personal three foot high ship,
Speaker 1: done table side out of sculptured ice. We also soaked
Speaker 1: in ancient Rio Khan's mud baths and then sat on
Speaker 1: tiny wooden chairs getting scrubbed by a very thorough innkeeper.
Speaker 1: I think at some point we also glimpsed the Royal Princess,
Speaker 1: and I think she was actually holding a Starbucks coffee.
Speaker 1: What most love is When Mother and I wanted to
Speaker 1: get fitted for kimonos in Tokyo. Old family run kimono
Speaker 1: shops are all over, easy to spot with kimono clad mannequins. Outside,
Speaker 1: we found an old boutique that was close to the
Speaker 1: Palace gardens. The owner was a smiley woman in a glamorous,
Speaker 1: light purple kimono, whom I told that I wanted to
Speaker 1: be fitted with mother right away, she grabbed my hand
Speaker 1: and invited us in. I'm pretty particular about mostly wearing black,
Speaker 1: whereas Mother runs down a color wheel once in a while,
Speaker 1: so we settled on black for me and dove gray
Speaker 1: for her. When I learned that the word kimono means
Speaker 1: something that is worn, the literal meaning made me want
Speaker 1: to wear it so much more. Supposedly, there are nine
Speaker 1: types of popular kimonos. Mother was into the summers style yukata,
Speaker 1: the most casual style of kimono, whereas I settled for
Speaker 1: a samurai style kimono with an obie, which is the
Speaker 1: belt that holds it all together. Of course, fitting a
Speaker 1: kimono is a leisurely a fair, a long chat about
Speaker 1: to pattern or not to pattern, to clash or not
Speaker 1: to clash, to parasol or not to parasol. And then
Speaker 1: these lashings of wisdom about which attires appropriate for which
Speaker 1: social obligation. Apparently I skewed towards very casual, basically living
Speaker 1: a pool party life with no umbrella. But attire is
Speaker 1: not just what you put on your body. It's about
Speaker 1: a meditation. It's about an observance. A lovely march, a
Speaker 1: tea ceremony unfolded in front of our very eyes, all
Speaker 1: forming part of this choreography. And at some point fabrics
Speaker 1: and robes were whizzing by, and the next thing you're
Speaker 1: standing on a too, Tommy Matt fully garbed. Once more.
Speaker 1: We didn't have a phone or a camera to commemorate
Speaker 1: this moment. We just stood there, dressed and be next
Speaker 1: to each other, hugging, smiling. Mother not one for tears
Speaker 1: may have wiped a little droplet away at this very moment. I,
Speaker 1: of course waterworks, So naturally I had to think, is
Speaker 1: this appropriation of culture that is not mine? Am I
Speaker 1: being offensive or insensitive? Or am I sincerely and absolutely
Speaker 1: celebrating and honoring a beautiful custom. My kimono maker told
Speaker 1: me it's all about intention. It's not the one but
Speaker 1: the how. I explained to our maestro that I lived
Speaker 1: in America, and Mother lived across a very large pond,
Speaker 1: and I just don't get to see her as much
Speaker 1: as I'd like to. And now Mother just isn't so
Speaker 1: young anymore. We plan to put on our kimonos and
Speaker 1: call each other on Skype every week. So there we
Speaker 1: are on different parts of the globe, chatting over a
Speaker 1: cup of tea while in our beautiful garments. Me for
Speaker 1: a morning cup, Mother for an afternoon treat, and that
Speaker 1: would be our little connection in the world, just hours
Speaker 1: nobody else's, and no proof was necessary to know in
Speaker 1: our hearts that this really happened, something seemingly so small
Speaker 1: and perhaps insignificant, tethering us just a little more. So
Speaker 1: let's take a breath there, and we'll be right back
Speaker 1: with my friend Holly Fry to give us a little
Speaker 1: historical context right after the break. Thanks for sticking around.
Speaker 1: Here's more of everywhere. Yes, my love, I'm sorry I
Speaker 1: didn't get you a kimono when I was in Japan,
Speaker 1: but we weren't friends then, So now when I returned
Speaker 1: to Japan, I will bring you a kimono and we
Speaker 1: can have a friendship kimono. I need to build a
Speaker 1: time machine go back, get me the kimono when you
Speaker 1: got your original one, or it's just not going to
Speaker 1: have any meaning. Fine, I need a minute to get
Speaker 1: right on it. I love kimono because they're beautiful, and
Speaker 1: also as someone who sews a lot, I appreciate them
Speaker 1: and maybe a different way than normal people would. But
Speaker 1: I thought we would talk a little bit about kimono
Speaker 1: and their history and then why that is relevant to
Speaker 1: your story about your mom. So, up until the High
Speaker 1: End period, the kimono not so much in Japan. It
Speaker 1: was more like um separate you know, separate tops and
Speaker 1: bottoms or trousers or skirts. There were one piece garments,
Speaker 1: but they weren't quite the same as we would like
Speaker 1: look at and see a kimono. And then during the
Speaker 1: High End period, which is quite long, it was from
Speaker 1: seven to eleven ninety two, they developed during that several
Speaker 1: hundred years. And what I love about kimono and what
Speaker 1: to me is really beautiful and kind of a nice
Speaker 1: example in general of Japanese design, is that unlike if
Speaker 1: you look at garments, for example, that come down through
Speaker 1: the European tradition, particularly after the Middle Ages, where there's
Speaker 1: lots of tailoring the seams are fussy. They're they're sewn
Speaker 1: and cut so that they will mold to your body.
Speaker 1: But in Japan, the development of how they cut and
Speaker 1: make these clothes, everything is a straight line. They're just
Speaker 1: designed in pieces so beautifully that they wrap around you
Speaker 1: perfectly and they fall perfectly, and it takes advantage of
Speaker 1: the fabric's natural beauty. To me is like brilliant design.
Speaker 1: It's it's very much in line with the idea of
Speaker 1: which is why I love them, like for a lot
Speaker 1: of people that so, making a kimono is really fun
Speaker 1: because you can kind of really indulge in just the
Speaker 1: beauty of the fabric and you're not worried so much
Speaker 1: about like matching up seam lines and stuff. Everything has
Speaker 1: to match, of course, but it's just simpler. It's a
Speaker 1: simpler design from the interior. But really there's this interesting
Speaker 1: development that happens after the high end period, so the
Speaker 1: Kama Kuta period, which is eight, there's another big shift,
Speaker 1: and then the Moro Machi period. I probably pronouncing these
Speaker 1: names very terribly, so my apologies to any Japanese speakers
Speaker 1: in the audience. And at this point kimono started getting
Speaker 1: more and more colorful. This idea of a colorful garment
Speaker 1: came in. The color started to be important in terms
Speaker 1: of its symbolic meaning, like certain leaders would be associated
Speaker 1: with certain colors, so loyalty could be demonstrated by the
Speaker 1: selection of fabrics that were in your kimono, and also
Speaker 1: um on the battlefield, alliances were often identified by color,
Speaker 1: which isn't unusual now. I mean, even every every nation
Speaker 1: has its military that has its uniform, so it's kind
Speaker 1: of similar to that. But these tended to be much
Speaker 1: more colorful, and so you will sometimes hear historians talk
Speaker 1: about ancient Japanese battlefields as a very like wild visual
Speaker 1: display of just all of these colors coming together. And
Speaker 1: then in the Edo period things really started to become
Speaker 1: important in terms of kimono because one, there were several
Speaker 1: developments where there were several garments that developed along with
Speaker 1: the samurai tradition, and these became super important. The idea
Speaker 1: of presentation became more important than ever. The people that
Speaker 1: made kimono had to work so hard to keep up
Speaker 1: with all of the demands of like Similarly, still symbolic
Speaker 1: colors very important. This idea of looking very perfect and
Speaker 1: wearing like hakama, which are the split pants style garment,
Speaker 1: still using this straight cut method, but because they were
Speaker 1: having to churn out garments at a really fast rate,
Speaker 1: it really became an art form like people that could
Speaker 1: move very quickly, almost like when you watch a master
Speaker 1: folder do a piece of origami. It was like that,
Speaker 1: but clothing came out at the end. So kimono became
Speaker 1: more important than ever in terms of being a cultural
Speaker 1: item and a status symbol in a way to really
Speaker 1: like telegraph to the world who you were and who
Speaker 1: you were associated with. But nowadays kimono are not really
Speaker 1: the day to day garments that they once were in
Speaker 1: Japanese culture, and they're usually warrant for things like important
Speaker 1: celebrate sations or ceremonial days. But also there has become
Speaker 1: this growing thing where they share them with travelers, and
Speaker 1: that is a new form of income for people that
Speaker 1: make close which then becomes this sort of beautiful reflection
Speaker 1: like I I love that you talk in this episode
Speaker 1: about wondering whether you're appropriating culture in taking part in
Speaker 1: buying these things, But at the same time, like that's
Speaker 1: the way that that garment had to evolve so it
Speaker 1: could stay in the public consciousness, particularly on a global scale,
Speaker 1: and I just like that it become this item that
Speaker 1: is instantly recognizable. No one looks at a kimono and
Speaker 1: is confused about the culture it came from. So in
Speaker 1: a way, they have made like this garment the ambassador
Speaker 1: for their country, which I love and I think it's
Speaker 1: really beautiful. Well, I think the reappropriation thing that I
Speaker 1: was thinking about is I feel like there's a pod
Speaker 1: of travel that exposes you to so many of these
Speaker 1: things where you need to go and appreciate and not
Speaker 1: take for yourself, right, And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: times people will kind of trinketize because of culture, where
Speaker 1: they go and they buy a thing in another country
Speaker 1: and then they come back and they wear it almost
Speaker 1: like you know, a badge of honor, and they're like,
Speaker 1: I went to this country, I am cultured and I
Speaker 1: understand it now, which is it gets in a weird
Speaker 1: place because their idea is that they're like, I appreciate this,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well wait, because you're you're kind of
Speaker 1: making yourself like the ambassador of something that you don't
Speaker 1: understand and don't really have cultural ownership of. And that's
Speaker 1: where it gets a little bit tricky, right, Um, so
Speaker 1: what is the right way to do it? I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know that there's one right way, right, Like
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people grapple with this. The
Speaker 1: biggest thing I think is always important is to to
Speaker 1: listen to people from any given culture when they say, like,
Speaker 1: that's not cool. And I understand that the reaction, the
Speaker 1: natural reaction most people have is whether they're conscious of
Speaker 1: it or not, to be defensive and be like I
Speaker 1: was just trying to learn, I was just trying to
Speaker 1: appreciate it, but like just to listen and sit with
Speaker 1: the information rather than trying to justify or like defend
Speaker 1: yourself in that situation. And again, I screw up all
Speaker 1: the time, like I think everybody does. It's hard not to.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, I mean I think like it's a good
Speaker 1: step that you you opened up that conversation with the
Speaker 1: person you were buying the kimono from and probably opened
Speaker 1: up to him a new idea that like you just
Speaker 1: wanted something to share with your mother. It wasn't it's
Speaker 1: not as the you're you're wearing it around town and
Speaker 1: being like I have been to Japan and I know
Speaker 1: the Japanese intimately. Um, that's the trick, right that people
Speaker 1: start to kind of come back I think sometimes from
Speaker 1: travels and behave as though they have somehow become naturalized
Speaker 1: citizens of the place that they went, when even if
Speaker 1: you learn about the cultures through doing something like that,
Speaker 1: you can never really replicate their experience to a level
Speaker 1: of understanding, you know, that is equal to what they've lived.
Speaker 1: It becomes about sensitivity as well, like I said, just
Speaker 1: listening to other people. Yeah, the kimono and my mother
Speaker 1: is a private, personal, beautiful thing we do at home,
Speaker 1: in the privacy of our own home. I'm not wearing
Speaker 1: it as a representation of Japan as much as I'm
Speaker 1: wearing it as a representation of time with my mother.
Speaker 1: Specialness of that. It's like your way to recall that
Speaker 1: moment and that event in your life. And this is
Speaker 1: like the thing that happens to me all the time
Speaker 1: that I laugh and think about. When I fly back
Speaker 1: from the Caribbean, there's always a bunch of people in
Speaker 1: the plane with corn rows that they've had them done,
Speaker 1: sometimes Mexico to but the Caribbean in particular. You notice
Speaker 1: people that had had their hand done braided or corn road.
Speaker 1: And I wonder whether there's a consciousness there at all,
Speaker 1: whether you're thinking like, oh, I'm gonna get corn rows
Speaker 1: as a person that's not from wherever I've come from
Speaker 1: and do it anyway, or am I doing it as
Speaker 1: a celebration of hair right? Well, and it kind of
Speaker 1: goes back to that thing I was saying about trinket
Speaker 1: izing it, right. It's like a fast food version of
Speaker 1: culture where it's kind of like you didn't actually immerse
Speaker 1: yourself and learn about it. You kind of bought a
Speaker 1: look through the drive through. Yeah, but then again, I'd
Speaker 1: like to be Devil's advocate hand look at it from
Speaker 1: maybe there's a small drop of hey, I'm willing to learn,
Speaker 1: like that person actually did think about it. Well, maybe
Speaker 1: that's just bullshit. No, they just went and had their
Speaker 1: hand writed. I think in most cases it's that it's
Speaker 1: an Instagram photo unfortunately. And I hope, I mean, my
Speaker 1: hope is always that I mean, once they have had
Speaker 1: that thing done, the cow has been flung, Like, you
Speaker 1: can't unring that bell and say that they didn't do that,
Speaker 1: especially if they've posted it on their Instagram. But I
Speaker 1: just always hope that it can open up a conversation
Speaker 1: or at least some self reflection about it. We all
Speaker 1: need it all the time. I mean, like I said,
Speaker 1: I screw all the time. It's the willingness to admit
Speaker 1: that you screw up all the time, and I'm willing
Speaker 1: to learn. Is that's the point? And travel shows you that, Like,
Speaker 1: that's the point. And I think most people don't want
Speaker 1: to trinketize anyone else's life, like they don't realize that
Speaker 1: it's demeaning to be like I came and enjoyed your
Speaker 1: culture and I came away with braids. Well, I enjoyed
Speaker 1: you a culture so much I dyed my hair purple
Speaker 1: two weeks ago because you have purple hair, and then
Speaker 1: went to play my ma gen competition with purple hair. Yes,
Speaker 1: but I sent you the die like I was an
Speaker 1: active basically by hand. I don't think of that as
Speaker 1: you appropriating my culture so much as me prosplytizing the
Speaker 1: magic of purpleness. And thank you. It was appreciated only
Speaker 1: when I was in the sun. If I was not
Speaker 1: in the sun, no one noticed. It just read as dark. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I think as long as we're all aware
Speaker 1: that we're probably screwing up a lot, and we're not
Speaker 1: trying to turn someone else's culture into a souvenir, but
Speaker 1: be really thoughtful about these things. It will go along
Speaker 1: way to bridging that gap. The whole point of this
Speaker 1: episode was to talk about the idea of leaving your
Speaker 1: smartphone behind. So I've been grappling with this thing forever
Speaker 1: because of course I want a moment that's beautiful, to
Speaker 1: capture it and share it with friends across the world
Speaker 1: and show them something that they haven't seen, or something
Speaker 1: that I'm sharing with my mother or something I'm sharing
Speaker 1: with my husband. But at the same time, I've been like,
Speaker 1: why do I need to memorialize this moment? Annonize this moment?
Speaker 1: Isn't it a beautiful idea that you could just be
Speaker 1: in the moment? Ironically, like I think about these chats
Speaker 1: of ours that are being recorded, and I'm I think,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad these will be there when I'm in
Speaker 1: my eighties and have lost some of my mental acuity
Speaker 1: and I can return to this happy time. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, that's a big part of it, right.
Speaker 1: It is just that it helps kind of jog your
Speaker 1: memory and take you back to that place, like a
Speaker 1: visual is an easy way to do that, right. So
Speaker 1: now I don't even know since phones are you know,
Speaker 1: this ubiquitous additional appendage that like, I mean, I'm as
Speaker 1: bad as anyone. I have it in my hand all
Speaker 1: the time. And to me, there's also that subtle difference
Speaker 1: that you have to acknowledge between capturing a moment like
Speaker 1: stopping for a photo versus this will be great on Insta,
Speaker 1: this will be great on Twitter, like and I don't know, right,
Speaker 1: some of it is that yummy, yummy dopamine hit that
Speaker 1: people get from likes and comments, And I don't know
Speaker 1: how you tell people not to do that because we've
Speaker 1: become dependent on it. So maybe it's about calling the
Speaker 1: amount of what's done right. So my mother, who I'm
Speaker 1: with traveling all the time, she would take one photore
Speaker 1: an entire experience, Like she doesn't need to take hundreds
Speaker 1: of photos. She'll take one and she will actually look
Speaker 1: at that photo again, which I'd love about her. She'll
Speaker 1: share it with me and be like, do you remember
Speaker 1: this incredible flower we saw in Kyoto? I will never
Speaker 1: forget it. And she looks at the photo and that's beautiful.
Speaker 1: So I want her to capture that and remember it.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I mean, I think the
Speaker 1: talk on social media has been there for a long time.
Speaker 1: How do I get off? How do I spend less time?
Speaker 1: Am I less productive? And I'm all like, all those
Speaker 1: questions are there, but I feel like no one's given
Speaker 1: us a solution. Travel should provide that solution. Travel should
Speaker 1: encourage you to not want to do all that stuff,
Speaker 1: because why would you want to instagram this beautiful private
Speaker 1: moment for everybody else to see if you could just
Speaker 1: keep it for yourself and that's the joy of it.
Speaker 1: I mean, some people travel, I know that they are
Speaker 1: travel companies that book specific instagram worthy trips. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: this gets into a slightly deeper conversation right about what
Speaker 1: people are actually getting from social media, Like I mentioned
Speaker 1: the yummy, yummy dopamine hit, but on a more intense
Speaker 1: and to me slightly frightening level, is validation and identity
Speaker 1: right right, Like people are not feeling validated in their
Speaker 1: day to day lives and there's not a sense of
Speaker 1: worth If people are not acknowledging how great you are
Speaker 1: all the time, would just problematic and hopefully, like people
Speaker 1: can self validate. But that's not the culture we're in
Speaker 1: right now. So I feel like we have to figure
Speaker 1: out a way to address this, almost like a global
Speaker 1: mental health issue that needs to be discussed, Like why
Speaker 1: do people feel invalidated and that their identity is defined
Speaker 1: by the reactions of others that somebody has to tell
Speaker 1: you you're having an amazing time. I'm always having an
Speaker 1: amazing time too. Well. I think about travel in that respect,
Speaker 1: like I think about these moments in like Floridaanapolis in
Speaker 1: the southern part of Brazil, where I was single, I
Speaker 1: had no responsibilities. I had this sort of strange moment
Speaker 1: between lives where I was just sitting on the beach
Speaker 1: by myself and I didn't need to photograph it to
Speaker 1: tell anyone about it. And travel shows you all of
Speaker 1: that all the time, Like I'm going to Africa and
Speaker 1: there's no service, and I worry about it because I
Speaker 1: have to work or have stuff to do. And then
Speaker 1: I start thinking, wait, this is such a beautiful opportunity
Speaker 1: to just be in Africa. Why do I need to
Speaker 1: take a photo of the Big Five? I just need
Speaker 1: to be with the Big Five. Well, my thing is
Speaker 1: always that people have already taken photographs of almost any
Speaker 1: important spot in the world, way better than I would
Speaker 1: ever manage. So I can just look at those I
Speaker 1: have seen no photographic ability. It's perfectly acceptable. Mine, however, terrible.
Speaker 1: So my real reason for not taking photos is because
Speaker 1: I'm terrible at taking photos. It would challenge your identity
Speaker 1: and your self validations exact exactly. Oh my god, thanks
Speaker 1: Holly for hanging out with me today. Always Ella is
Speaker 1: so happy you're here. I'm always happy to hang out
Speaker 1: with ls. She's like the best non speaking co host
Speaker 1: on the planet. She's not moving. Her podcast is not
Speaker 1: going to take off because she just doesn't have the
Speaker 1: gumption to keep it going. She's more interested in napping.
Speaker 1: She's like, I need an daddy coming minutes of dog snores.
Speaker 1: This is a great moment for us to travel once
Speaker 1: again to advertising Land. We'll be right back with more
Speaker 1: Everywhere trade tables up. You're returning to everywhere Land. To me,
Speaker 1: Broadway really is one of the last art forms untainted
Speaker 1: by social media. It exists for you in a moment alone,
Speaker 1: created by the artists right in front of your face,
Speaker 1: and as Mitchell, the writer and music creator of Broadway's
Speaker 1: hit Hadestown is with me in studio. Thank you for
Speaker 1: spending a little time with me on its summer Friday.
Speaker 1: It's hot and blazing in New York. Let's start by
Speaker 1: telling about your childhood and traveling around. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I grew up in Vermont. My parents were like back
Speaker 1: to the land or hippies that had grown up in
Speaker 1: the suburbs. And then they hit chick to California for
Speaker 1: the Summer of Love and they they read about how
Speaker 1: everyone should buy a farm in Vermont in the Whole
Speaker 1: Earth catalog, and so that's what they did. And I
Speaker 1: lived there on a sheep farm with my parents, and
Speaker 1: my grandparents were also on that same farm in a
Speaker 1: different house. And um my granddad was involved in solar
Speaker 1: energy research, and after he was retired, he did a
Speaker 1: lot of traveling to do um kind of consulting in
Speaker 1: different places. And I remember my my grandparents taking off
Speaker 1: to go to China or the Middle East and then
Speaker 1: coming back with a present for me. So travel was
Speaker 1: always like a value in our family. I remember my
Speaker 1: mom saying that things that was okay to spend money
Speaker 1: on were food, books, your friends, and travel. So there
Speaker 1: was a lot of shipping me off to different places
Speaker 1: when I was it, and I came to love it
Speaker 1: for traveling its own right, you know. And then when
Speaker 1: I became a singer songwriter, that has sort of supplanted
Speaker 1: my travel life as usually I'm traveling for a gig
Speaker 1: now and I sort of miss those days of just
Speaker 1: being somewhere for the sake of being there, right, well,
Speaker 1: so much of it is business travel, right, Tell me
Speaker 1: what you think the difference is, like, is there an
Speaker 1: attitude difference or is it like just a feeling difference totally?
Speaker 1: And I think like I've done different kinds of traveling
Speaker 1: for music, and sometimes I'm like opening for a band
Speaker 1: and they have a tour of us, and I'm just
Speaker 1: kind of rolling with them and there's somebody taking care
Speaker 1: of all the details, and there's no reason why you
Speaker 1: would have a conversation with someone on the street, you know,
Speaker 1: you're sort of in a bubble in that scenario, And
Speaker 1: that I have also done, you know, just me on
Speaker 1: a train or on a bus where you're staying with friends.
Speaker 1: But I think the difference for me is probably that
Speaker 1: if I'm touring at some level, I end up being
Speaker 1: concerned about protecting my own energy kind of just looking
Speaker 1: out for my my own energy and own space so
Speaker 1: that I can get in the space to perform. And
Speaker 1: that's maybe just a perception I have, like I think
Speaker 1: I need to do that, But I think if you're
Speaker 1: really just traveling to travel, you're more like porous, right Like,
Speaker 1: there's fewer boundaries around you're you're psyche. But that leads
Speaker 1: us perfectly into talking about the idea of thou should
Speaker 1: ignoy your smartphone, right like, as a singer songwriter, as
Speaker 1: someone who's just done this thing on Broadway, the concept
Speaker 1: of people having to always record that must be frustrating.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure there's a part of you that's like,
Speaker 1: put this down, be in the moment, be with me
Speaker 1: in the moment, because I've done that. I locked the
Speaker 1: world own in order to create this thing come and
Speaker 1: experience of like that. I have so many thoughts and
Speaker 1: feelings about that stuff, Like, yeah, I mean I remember
Speaker 1: before those phones, you know, I remember touring before the phones,
Speaker 1: and um, I remember so many times just being alone
Speaker 1: in a car driving, you know, some impossible distance in
Speaker 1: the United States to get to some like folk music
Speaker 1: club where I was going to play a gig, and
Speaker 1: seeing something stunningly beautiful and not being able to tell
Speaker 1: anyone about it, and uh what it does kind of
Speaker 1: in your heart when it has a minute, you know,
Speaker 1: when you have a minute with that stuff. I think
Speaker 1: there's like we're kind of spilling the sap all the
Speaker 1: time with these phones, and we're not able to um
Speaker 1: let them distill into the syrups that they could as
Speaker 1: a Vermont reference for you, um that they could become
Speaker 1: if you just sort of live with the beauty, you know,
Speaker 1: in the moment. And certainly in the case of performing,
Speaker 1: I think and with music and theater, it's all about
Speaker 1: humans in a room together in that moment, and you
Speaker 1: just can't be together if you have one eye on
Speaker 1: the device. I did when I was between London and Broadway.
Speaker 1: You know, the show has been in development for thirteen
Speaker 1: years and I had like three months between London and
Speaker 1: Broadway to make all these changes that we collectively felt
Speaker 1: should be made to the script and the songs. And
Speaker 1: I was like, I gotta get off my phone. So
Speaker 1: I bought a dumb phone that I could take to
Speaker 1: my writing place so I could maybe contact my my
Speaker 1: husband or my manager if something crazy happened. But that
Speaker 1: no one else could be in touch, and it was
Speaker 1: amazing to me to reconnect with what it feels like
Speaker 1: to live in the world without those devices. And uh,
Speaker 1: I think the main thing is, you know, for most people,
Speaker 1: it's like probably of my involvement on those sites is
Speaker 1: like what do people think about what I said? You know,
Speaker 1: as opposed to like what is happening with my friend,
Speaker 1: which was really eye opening. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: live like that, you know who the fund does. I
Speaker 1: think we're being false to live like that because we
Speaker 1: think that it's okay. It's not okay. Life is happening
Speaker 1: right now in front of you and you don't have
Speaker 1: to tell anyone about it. Yes, but it isn't. Broadway
Speaker 1: kind of an almost sacred place for this where people
Speaker 1: are still off their phones when people very few people,
Speaker 1: unlike a concert, Broadway holds this like almost a good
Speaker 1: manner or like a politeness, like I'm not going to
Speaker 1: be on my phone, even though they have to say
Speaker 1: it in the beginning, I feel like people adhere to it.
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, I think the culture is just
Speaker 1: very strong in that way. And I mean it's true
Speaker 1: at a music show too, It's not that cool to
Speaker 1: pull out your phone and you be on it. But
Speaker 1: on Broadway especially, I mean, people are paying so much
Speaker 1: for those tickets, right, and they're there to lose themselves
Speaker 1: in a story, and like, how are you going to
Speaker 1: do that if your neighbor has like a screen out.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the ultimate journey. That's how I see
Speaker 1: Hades Town, like I think about it in that way,
Speaker 1: to the underworld, the ultimate journey, Like how is that
Speaker 1: for you? People come from all over the world to
Speaker 1: see broad Way and they want to go on that
Speaker 1: journey alongside with you and the stars on the stage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they want to go with Andre de Shields, who's playing
Speaker 1: the character of Hermes. And in this telling of the Orpheus,
Speaker 1: and you really see story Hermes is he something like
Speaker 1: a train conductor? Right? The very first lines of the
Speaker 1: show are you know, once upon a time there was
Speaker 1: a real road line, don't ask where, don't ask? When
Speaker 1: it was the road to Hell? It was hard times.
Speaker 1: And Andre is just such a consummate showman, you know,
Speaker 1: so warm and welcoming. I think people do get a
Speaker 1: sense when he comes out there that they have a
Speaker 1: guide that they can trust who's going to take them
Speaker 1: on a journey. He's such an eloquent man, and if
Speaker 1: you've heard any of his interviews, but he talks about
Speaker 1: like making a contract with the audience that we welcome
Speaker 1: you on this journey with us. You might be challenged,
Speaker 1: but you won't be harmed. Like there's such as some
Speaker 1: sort of extension of his hand that feels very present
Speaker 1: throughout the show. It's a strange peace. It's you know,
Speaker 1: it does have this above ground world and this below
Speaker 1: ground world, and the above ground world is a kind
Speaker 1: of unpredictable place that the weather systems are unpredictable. Um,
Speaker 1: there's poverty and hunger and heat and cold, and then
Speaker 1: Hades Town or the underworld represents this place of relative
Speaker 1: security and industrial world underground, it's walled in. It's all
Speaker 1: very metaphorical, right, Like there's not a lot about the
Speaker 1: show that's literal, and so I think the designers have
Speaker 1: done just such a beautiful job of being able to
Speaker 1: take us on that journey in terms of the change
Speaker 1: that happens to the set when you travel underground. It's
Speaker 1: sort of a sleight of hand move on the part
Speaker 1: of Rachel Chapkin and Rachel Halkard, our director and scenic designer.
Speaker 1: Give me something about your personal journey that you went
Speaker 1: through with this production. So it's been thirteen years, um, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is a lifetime really yeah, a third of my life,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah. Literally when it began, it was so
Speaker 1: I was living in Vermont and it was this d
Speaker 1: I Y community theater project. It was me and a
Speaker 1: bunch of friends. We traveled around Vermont in this school
Speaker 1: bus that was painted silver and it had all of
Speaker 1: our sets and props in it. It was an impossible
Speaker 1: thing that we did. Like we we had two weeks
Speaker 1: of rehearsal or something and a couple of thousand dollars
Speaker 1: to make this thing happen, and we did. Like I
Speaker 1: remember of this one moment we were loading the sets
Speaker 1: in from the bus into this one of these places
Speaker 1: we were going to do the show, and I was
Speaker 1: carrying together with the director and this other friend, like
Speaker 1: these very heavy set pieces. They were so heavy, and
Speaker 1: they didn't feel heavy, you know, they felt light to me.
Speaker 1: This is gonna sound pretentious, and I never would like
Speaker 1: quote Shakespeare ever, but you know, there's this moment in
Speaker 1: um Romeo and Juliette where they're like, how did you
Speaker 1: get over the wall to Juliette's house and Romia goes
Speaker 1: on Love's Light Wings to iver pers these walls, and
Speaker 1: I felt like, oh, this is love light Wings and
Speaker 1: that that has been present in this show many different times,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and it had to do with the
Speaker 1: people coming together to make it happen. So after we
Speaker 1: did it in Vermont, we did a concert version of
Speaker 1: the show. I made an album with some guest singers,
Speaker 1: and then we would tour around and present the show
Speaker 1: as a concert, so no staging, no props, no costumes.
Speaker 1: I would kind of talk about what was happening between
Speaker 1: the songs, and we had like fourteen people and a
Speaker 1: dog and if team Passenger Van. It was a really
Speaker 1: wild time and always on a shoestring, and you know,
Speaker 1: but it felt the same, like people were coming together
Speaker 1: to make this thing happen. And then I met Rachel
Speaker 1: Chapkin in twelve and started to work with her and
Speaker 1: started to work on what has become this Broadway production.
Speaker 1: And it's been a master class for me in terms
Speaker 1: of taking this piece that came really out of the
Speaker 1: wild woods, and you know, the music world essentially had
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the logic, the sort
Speaker 1: of emotional logic of the show is musical, and so
Speaker 1: trying to mesh that with the world of dramaturgy and
Speaker 1: you know what people are expecting when they're paying a
Speaker 1: theater ticket and wanting to be led through a story
Speaker 1: for me to be And so that again was a
Speaker 1: phase of six years, and and we did off Broadway,
Speaker 1: we did Edmonton, we did London, and then we finally
Speaker 1: arrived at the cur and I don't know what's next.
Speaker 1: You know, it does feel like we're sort of on it.
Speaker 1: We're on a train and it and it just keeps
Speaker 1: rolling and it's bigger than me, and it's bigger than
Speaker 1: any of us that have been working on it. Maybe
Speaker 1: the train is to everywhere. Okay, um, let's talk about
Speaker 1: New York as a destination. It's like the final thing
Speaker 1: to talk about, Like people come from all over the world,
Speaker 1: and there's a kind of responsibility to create something for
Speaker 1: a broad Way. You're taking on a responsibility because New
Speaker 1: York is that place. And I think that as someone
Speaker 1: who performs hair or has a business hair or in
Speaker 1: any of those ways, you like representing New York. And
Speaker 1: that is so crucial to me because it's the sense
Speaker 1: of the universe. I I agree. I agree with you. I. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a very rural place,
Speaker 1: and um, New York was always my dream city. You know,
Speaker 1: it took a long time before I got here, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily Broadway that was the draw for me,
Speaker 1: you know. I I sort of my romantic notions about
Speaker 1: New York are like the Chelsea Hotel and you know,
Speaker 1: the folk scene in the village in the sixties and
Speaker 1: like Patti Smith and Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen and
Speaker 1: that type of stuff. But then you know, there's so
Speaker 1: many scenes going on in New York. And once I
Speaker 1: tapped into Broadway, and you know, to be working on
Speaker 1: this show on Broadway and to be rehearsing at like
Speaker 1: Newford Second Street Studios and there's like the TUTSI guys
Speaker 1: were upstairs, and you know, my Oklahoma friends were at
Speaker 1: the bar like after hours. It does just feel like
Speaker 1: such a beautiful camaraderie of artists in this city. And
Speaker 1: you know, whatever the scene is, if it's folk music,
Speaker 1: if it's Broadway, if it's jazz, you know, there's so
Speaker 1: many worlds. So yeah, I feel like it's just a
Speaker 1: tremendous privilege to live in this town and and to
Speaker 1: be a representative of the arts scene here. It's that's
Speaker 1: beyond my wildest dreams. You know. I'm just happy to
Speaker 1: be in town. You know, this is like not a
Speaker 1: funny story, but I just thought it was interesting in
Speaker 1: the context of like what different ways you can travel.
Speaker 1: And when I was eighteen, there was a bus ticket
Speaker 1: you could get. It was a Greyhound bus ticket that
Speaker 1: you could take any bus in the USA for a month.
Speaker 1: And I got that ticket, and I did it by myself.
Speaker 1: It was such a glorious you know, just me. I
Speaker 1: was eighteen. I was reading like Carouac or something, just
Speaker 1: like on a great hund bus, you know, overnight wake
Speaker 1: up in San Francisco or like Knoxville, Tennessee, or New Orleans,
Speaker 1: and get out the bus station, meet some random people.
Speaker 1: It was a pretty formative experience for me. That is
Speaker 1: what I'd like to inspire. I hope you and your
Speaker 1: voice today inspires people to go and do that. It's
Speaker 1: not necessarily Greyhound, Deltas available, whatever, whatever. Peter Pan is
Speaker 1: the one, right, I always see it like rushing up
Speaker 1: Fifth Avenue. Um, but I want to inspire people to
Speaker 1: take those journeys to not fear take Pampa spray with
Speaker 1: you a few months or like whatever it is. But like,
Speaker 1: why are we in a fearful state to do that
Speaker 1: stuff now? I mean, I understand that bad things happen
Speaker 1: everywhere all the time, yes, but and listen studio with
Speaker 1: us again today no one's paying attention to Huh, it's
Speaker 1: not about you today all. But really, just take those journeys,
Speaker 1: like get on a bus, go somewhere wild, and instead
Speaker 1: of thinking about it, just feeling it. Right, that's the
Speaker 1: whole show. Two seasons of this for the next year.
Speaker 1: This is all I'm going to be talking about. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I love that. And it's so true that, you know,
Speaker 1: to be on the ground someplace is so completely different
Speaker 1: from reading about it in the news or you know
Speaker 1: what whatever sense people have about a place from outside.
Speaker 1: And I know, you know, you were talking about Cairo,
Speaker 1: And when I was in college, I studied abroad in
Speaker 1: Cairo and I did some traveling in the Middle East,
Speaker 1: and I remember, you know, you read the what is
Speaker 1: the stuff that the government puts out about don't go
Speaker 1: to Lebanon Earth propaganda yeah, yeah, and then and then
Speaker 1: on the ground in any of these places, even a
Speaker 1: place that where there is a war or violence, and
Speaker 1: I haven't been in a country like that, but that
Speaker 1: there are people. You know, there's people everywhere, and there's
Speaker 1: little kids like playing in the street and they're going
Speaker 1: to school, and there's people trying to sell you a
Speaker 1: piece of fruit. You know, there's just people everywhere. That
Speaker 1: is what the show is about. It's about finding the
Speaker 1: humanity and showing that there's humanity everywhere. Like we need
Speaker 1: to stop the idea of the Middle East or scary Africa. However,
Speaker 1: these horrible tropes that are out there, because none of
Speaker 1: that stuff truly exists. The world is open with you. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for being with me and spending a little
Speaker 1: time with me. Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1: pleasures so wonderful, and NA has me inspired to completely
Speaker 1: forget that I even have a phone. And that is
Speaker 1: the power of art. So let's take the advice from mother.
Speaker 1: One photo that's all your need. So I have a
Speaker 1: plane to catch, but if you'd still like to reach us,
Speaker 1: go to Everywhere Podcast on Instagram, Everywhere part on Twitter,
Speaker 1: or the website at Everywhere Podcast dot com. Of course,
Speaker 1: I couldn't have done any of this without my executive
Speaker 1: producers Christopher Hats and the loveliest of lovely Holly Fry.
Speaker 1: A big thank you to my lead producer and editor
Speaker 1: Chandler Maze and also co editor and creative of the
Speaker 1: soundtrack Tristan McNeil. I am your host, Daniel Scheffler, and
Speaker 1: as I'd like to say, good boys go to heaven
Speaker 1: and bad boys are everywhere.