Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Larie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist's Advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for TED.
Speaker 2: And this is Deo Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler Wonders had a menda relationship
Speaker 1: after a childhood friend severs ties.
Speaker 3: I don't know what kind of value I would get
Speaker 3: out of a friendship with her right now, because it
Speaker 3: feels like I haven't gotten any value from that friendship
Speaker 3: for a while.
Speaker 2: First, a quick note, therapist is for informational purposes only,
Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 2: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 2: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 2: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy,
Speaker 2: Hi Laurie. What do we have in our mailbooks today?
Speaker 1: Well, today we have a letter about a broken friendship
Speaker 1: and goes like this, Dear therapists. I had a childhood friend, Liza,
Speaker 1: who suddenly cut ties with me and two other longtime
Speaker 1: friends almost a year ago. After she traveled to visit
Speaker 1: our city for a weekend together. We had a mild
Speaker 1: disagreement in a group text. It escalated unpredictably. The other
Speaker 1: three of us did not understand how or why. Then
Speaker 1: she stopped responding and she severed our social media connections.
Speaker 1: None of us independently reached out to her. Maybe some
Speaker 1: friendships should end. My father died soon thereafter, and months
Speaker 1: after his death, I got a condolence card from her
Speaker 1: that said she knew he and I weren't close, but
Speaker 1: she still was sorry for my loss. I don't know
Speaker 1: if she hesitated to send it or it took time
Speaker 1: before she found out he died. Months have passed and
Speaker 1: I haven't responded. Maybe I should let it lie, as
Speaker 1: I have, but I keep thinking about it. I get
Speaker 1: angry because if she actually cared, she could have asked
Speaker 1: about his worsening health the weekend of her visit, but
Speaker 1: she did not, even as I was late letting her
Speaker 1: into my home because I was visiting him at the hospital.
Speaker 1: She clearly has my address, my email, my phone number.
Speaker 1: The card feels like a way to bandage herself image
Speaker 1: rather than a way to give me comfort. At the
Speaker 1: same time, what a year last year was on everyone?
Speaker 1: If I read her card at face value, perhaps it's
Speaker 1: just a good will gesture, certainly no effort for repair,
Speaker 1: but respect for the years we did spend as friends.
Speaker 1: What do I tell myself to let this go? Do
Speaker 1: I send a simple, efficient thank you so that I
Speaker 1: close this out, Wendy.
Speaker 2: That's a really complicated, painful sitution situation. The thing about
Speaker 2: childhood friends is that either you grow in a similar
Speaker 2: direction together in life, or you grow apart in some way. Now,
Speaker 2: there are plenty of childhood friends who grow apart but
Speaker 2: can still maintain their friendship. They just have to reformulate
Speaker 2: it a little bit so it matches who they are
Speaker 2: as adults. We change a lot in our lives and
Speaker 2: you often have to reformulate what that friendship is about.
Speaker 2: And when they're four friends, one of them might not
Speaker 2: fit anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think people don't realize sometimes how intense friendships can be,
Speaker 1: especially when it's a childhood friend and that person has
Speaker 1: known you your entire life. So let's go talk to
Speaker 1: Wendy and find out what happened and what her ambivalence
Speaker 1: is about.
Speaker 2: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
Speaker 2: after a quick break.
Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists. So
Speaker 2: Hi Wendy, Hi there, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 1: So, we read your letter and this sounds like a
Speaker 1: complicated friend situation, and we wanted to understand a little
Speaker 1: bit more about the history of your friendship with Liza.
Speaker 3: So e, Liza and I have been had been friends
Speaker 3: for probably eighteen years. One of those situations where we
Speaker 3: grew up in the same small Midwestern town, which means
Speaker 3: under twenty five hundred people in the Midwest, so we've
Speaker 3: known each other our whole lives, been to each other's weddings,
Speaker 3: all that kind of thing. She ended up moving to
Speaker 3: a smaller town as we got older, and I've moved
Speaker 3: to the Twin Cities, which is a little bit more urban,
Speaker 3: and then I don't know, I think our lives kind
Speaker 3: of went different directions and we are where we are now,
Speaker 3: which is not talking.
Speaker 2: To each other. How do the two other friends figure in?
Speaker 3: So we were all childhood friends.
Speaker 2: From that one small town. Yes, yeah, oh well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in a small town, everyone knows each other. So
Speaker 3: one of our friends came in fourth grade, she moved
Speaker 3: to our town, and that's when we became friends with her,
Speaker 3: and then the other three of us were basically born
Speaker 3: and raised in our small town, and so we've kept
Speaker 3: in touch. The one who moved in actually left town
Speaker 3: a few years later, but she's maintained a friendship with
Speaker 3: us throughout the years. And now we're in our late
Speaker 3: twenties and all of us were still pretty close. The
Speaker 3: three of us ended up all in the Twin Cities.
Speaker 3: One actually lives with me now is my housemate. Two
Speaker 3: of us are partnered. One of us is not. None
Speaker 3: of us have kids.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the nature of your friendship
Speaker 1: with life, you know, tell us a little bit more
Speaker 1: about what that friendship has been like up to the
Speaker 1: point of the rupture.
Speaker 3: Obviously, we grew up together, We went to the same
Speaker 3: college for a little while I was in her wedding,
Speaker 3: I had a very small we called a gorilla wedding.
Speaker 3: We just eloped with seven of our closest friends and
Speaker 3: she was at that So we maintained a pretty good
Speaker 3: connection in a lot of ways, at least on the
Speaker 3: surface as far as it goes. We were always better
Speaker 3: at reaching out to Eliza to communicate than she was
Speaker 3: to us, and it felt that way most of the time.
Speaker 3: That we had to initiate conversations, and of course that
Speaker 3: when you live in different states and different towns, that's
Speaker 3: a pretty important part of the friendship. I would contact
Speaker 3: her and ask her how she was doing, and organize
Speaker 3: events if we were going to get together.
Speaker 1: You said, you've been friends for eighteen years and you're
Speaker 1: in your late twenties. Do you remember when you were
Speaker 1: going through school together or what that friendship was like
Speaker 1: in terms of did you guys argue? Was it a
Speaker 1: smooth friendship. Did you confight in each other? Did you
Speaker 1: feel like she had your back? And did she feel
Speaker 1: like you had her back?
Speaker 3: It was a close friendship. We were very smooth friends.
Speaker 3: Before fourth grade, she was more in a different group
Speaker 3: of friends, so I knew her before that, but she
Speaker 3: became one of my close friends, and we really didn't argue,
Speaker 3: didn't fight. She was very just very easy going and
Speaker 3: was not argumentative, and I think she really tried to
Speaker 3: avoid conflict all the time.
Speaker 2: When you were friends. Did she also not take initiative?
Speaker 2: Were you also the one who had to say, hey,
Speaker 2: let's get together, Hey let's do this? Or what? Did
Speaker 2: she take more initiative? Was she real proactive?
Speaker 3: No? I think that she didn't really take a lot
Speaker 3: of initiative throughout the course of our lives. She was
Speaker 3: always willing to go along with things and a happy participant,
Speaker 3: but and initiate ideas. I think this has been a
Speaker 3: long time coming in terms of not engaging a lot.
Speaker 3: And this is hard because, of course, it's not just
Speaker 3: when we've been friends. For this line, it doesn't feel
Speaker 3: like the relationship is just me and her, it's me
Speaker 3: and her and our other mutual friends. Because we've been
Speaker 3: a group of friends for so long, so for a
Speaker 3: number of years since they graduated college. If I reached out,
Speaker 3: she would respond to me and ask questions and engage
Speaker 3: in a conversation. If our other friend reached out, she
Speaker 3: would often just ignore the text. But if we got together.
Speaker 1: She wasn't as close with the other two.
Speaker 3: It always seemed like she was closer to the person
Speaker 3: who she ignored than to me. But I think that
Speaker 3: I'm the more persistent one, so she would respond to
Speaker 3: me because I would call her out on it if
Speaker 3: she didn't.
Speaker 1: Usually in a friend group, there are people who are
Speaker 1: closer than other people in the group, So how would
Speaker 1: you characterize those relationships within the group? Who was closest
Speaker 1: with whom?
Speaker 3: So me and my housemate have definitely always been the closest.
Speaker 3: Beyond that, it always felt like Liza was a little
Speaker 3: bit closer with my housemate than to me. They both
Speaker 3: attended the same college until they graduated. They engaged in
Speaker 3: the same sports activities, so they have those types of
Speaker 3: bonding experiences. So it felt like Liza was closer to her,
Speaker 3: but she would be more communicative with me.
Speaker 1: She was close. It felt like she was closer to
Speaker 1: her just because they saw each other more or because
Speaker 1: they actually had more emotional intimacy.
Speaker 3: That's a good question. Maybe I did have more emotional
Speaker 3: intimacy with her, and then they had more time together.
Speaker 1: I want to know what do you like about Liza?
Speaker 1: So the friendship persisted for a long time, you made
Speaker 1: a lot of effort to stay in touch with her.
Speaker 1: Tell me what you like about her.
Speaker 3: I like sharing laughter with her. I like sharing old jokes.
Speaker 3: The comfort of really long friendship is really nice and special,
Speaker 3: and I think there is an intimacy that you develop
Speaker 3: over time that's certainly hard to achieve quickly.
Speaker 1: But again, my question is what do you like about her?
Speaker 1: What qualities do you like?
Speaker 3: And I don't know what answer I have to that anymore.
Speaker 1: You must have enjoyed something about her, because there are
Speaker 1: lots of people you can talk about your childhood with,
Speaker 1: but you chose her. So what qualities did you like
Speaker 1: about her before this happened?
Speaker 3: I liked her goofyinus and your sense of humor. I
Speaker 3: liked her her comebacks. She makes the most amazing facial
Speaker 3: expressions that they're all just comical, and she has no idea.
Speaker 3: She's making them, and they're always ridiculous and it just
Speaker 3: fills your heart with joy.
Speaker 1: Did you think she was kind? Did you think that
Speaker 1: she had your back? Did you think she cared about you?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I did think that she cared about us, and
Speaker 3: I thought she was loyal and trustworthy and would be
Speaker 3: there for me when I needed her.
Speaker 2: I would like to hear about the rupture, about what happened.
Speaker 3: So she came to visit our city and she stayed
Speaker 3: with me at our house, which we just got last year,
Speaker 3: so it was her first time seeing the place, hanging
Speaker 3: out with us here, and she was in town for work,
Speaker 3: so she came and stayed through the weekend. And as
Speaker 3: she was driving home that weekend, she texted something that
Speaker 3: was like a fat joke, and I responded that I
Speaker 3: didn't like those kind of jokes, and she told me
Speaker 3: to calm down, which is, in my personal experience, the
Speaker 3: best way to make me not calm down, because I
Speaker 3: felt like I was already calm, as you always do
Speaker 3: when you get told that, and then things just blew up.
Speaker 3: She said that we had different senses of humors and
Speaker 3: different values, and that she didn't feel like she could
Speaker 3: say anything to us and not to contact her again.
Speaker 1: Were you surprised by the intensity of her reaction asking
Speaker 1: you never to contact her again?
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, we were all surprised.
Speaker 2: You are the two friends they were bystanders in this
Speaker 2: or did they actually participate in that conversation?
Speaker 3: It was in a group chat between the four of us,
Speaker 3: and one of them participated a little bit and said
Speaker 3: she didn't understand the reaction, and the other person remained silent.
Speaker 1: Was the housemate the person who participated a little bit
Speaker 1: or who remained silent.
Speaker 3: The housemate was the one who participated.
Speaker 2: So was that zero to sixty and two seconds? So
Speaker 2: whether a couple of stages of build up in between,
Speaker 2: in between I don't like those kinds of jokes and
Speaker 2: the never duck on my doorstep again? Was there a
Speaker 2: couple of steps?
Speaker 3: It was pretty rapid.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 3: I thought I was trying to politely say I don't
Speaker 3: like those kinds of jokes, and I'm sure there's two
Speaker 3: sides to how that can be interpreted, but it went
Speaker 3: from me saying that to I want nothing to do
Speaker 3: with you within minutes.
Speaker 1: Is there some history around body image with Liza that
Speaker 1: you're aware of that made her have that reaction in
Speaker 1: that way.
Speaker 3: So throughout the weekend when we were together, she made
Speaker 3: some comments about and her body, and I didn't say anything.
Speaker 4: What kinds of comments, like she'd be eating a piece
Speaker 4: of candy and then say something self denigrating, and I
Speaker 4: didn't know how to respond and didn't like hearing her
Speaker 4: talk about herself that way.
Speaker 1: So she'd say something like, Oh, I shouldn't be eating
Speaker 1: this because I'm so fat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, things like that. And she's always liked to snack,
Speaker 3: and she's had two kids, and she's had body issues
Speaker 3: because she was in the military, and so she had
Speaker 3: to maintain a certain standard and struggled with that at times.
Speaker 3: So I know that that has been a thing for her.
Speaker 3: Amongst our group, I feel like none of us ever
Speaker 3: talk about our bodies and negative ways to each other.
Speaker 1: Can we get a little more detail on what happened
Speaker 1: between Hey, I don't like those kinds of jokes and
Speaker 1: calmed down and then never talk to me again.
Speaker 3: I don't think there really was much more than that.
Speaker 3: There was just a rapid evolution to we don't think
Speaker 3: the same way, we don't have the same humor or
Speaker 3: values or body issues. And she didn't feel safe talking
Speaker 3: to us about things because she didn't want to be
Speaker 3: in arguments.
Speaker 2: So I mean it sounded that she had been holding
Speaker 2: a lot in and that accumulating a lot of a
Speaker 2: grievances feelings. Had she voiced any of those concerns previously?
Speaker 3: No, No, we just had two and a half days
Speaker 3: together with no arguments.
Speaker 1: Have you guys ever had an argument?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about that?
Speaker 3: Oh, oh gosh. Well, the last argument I can think
Speaker 3: of is me asking how her relationship was with her husband,
Speaker 3: and her turning around and asking me how mine was.
Speaker 3: We're so far away from her. I guess I was
Speaker 3: trying to check in to see if they were okay.
Speaker 1: Did you have reason to believe that things were not
Speaker 1: okay based off.
Speaker 3: Of them not having pictures together on social media when
Speaker 3: she used to do that kind of thing and have
Speaker 3: pictures of them together on social media, and then not
Speaker 3: talking about him much in conversations with us, just being
Speaker 3: hush about it.
Speaker 1: Did you just say how are things going with your husband?
Speaker 1: She didn't answer and said, how are things going with
Speaker 1: your husband? Where's the argument? Help us flush that out
Speaker 1: a little bit?
Speaker 3: I think that I asked, and then she was insulted
Speaker 3: that I asked how things were going.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and just be clear that was the argument
Speaker 2: because I'm from New York. I just want to be clear.
Speaker 3: Uh, yes, in the Midwest. This is how we argue.
Speaker 2: I had the same question because I want my money back.
Speaker 1: I get it was the show.
Speaker 3: That's the show. Yeah, that's that's the last time I
Speaker 3: could think of that. We got angry at each other
Speaker 3: before this.
Speaker 1: Wait, how so here's our question because we because this
Speaker 1: is this is like you're putting us in in a
Speaker 1: different frame of mind about what an argument is. So
Speaker 1: you said, how are things going with your husband? And
Speaker 1: she said how are things going with yours? And then
Speaker 1: you guys didn't talk anymore. But that was the argument,
Speaker 1: and you both assumed that the other person was offended
Speaker 1: by the question.
Speaker 3: No, it was. There was heated things between those two flagship.
Speaker 1: Oh will help us, Okay, So that's what we'd like
Speaker 1: to know, So you can you take us through the
Speaker 1: dialogue a little bit more.
Speaker 3: It was in text. I don't think I have the
Speaker 3: text anymore. I think the flavor was basically, none of
Speaker 3: your damn business, and who are you to ask? And
Speaker 3: what about you? How are things for you. How am
Speaker 3: I supposed to know any of that stuff?
Speaker 1: And how did you respond to that? One example is
Speaker 1: somebody might say, you know, oh, I'm really sorry. I
Speaker 1: didn't mean to upset you. I just want to hear
Speaker 1: what's going on with you? And other question is what's
Speaker 1: going on here? I'm really confused about why you're so upset?
Speaker 1: What was your response?
Speaker 3: Probably some blend of those things, with a little bit
Speaker 3: of a of anger back. Things are fine here, and
Speaker 3: there's people who can see that things are fine here.
Speaker 1: So defensiveness like, you're defending your marriage, but you're not
Speaker 1: talking about what's happening between you and Lizay neither of
Speaker 1: you is.
Speaker 2: Have you and Isa ever talked about you and Liza?
Speaker 2: If we have, I don't know when it would have been,
Speaker 2: So that's a no.
Speaker 1: So you defended your marriage and then what happened The
Speaker 1: texting just stopped and you picked up another time and
Speaker 1: you never spoke of it again, or you somehow repaired
Speaker 1: that what happened exactly?
Speaker 3: She got defensive, I got defensive back. I don't remember
Speaker 3: if I tried to justify to her why I asked
Speaker 3: in the first place. I think that I probably tried
Speaker 3: to communicate that a little bit, but certainly not entirely,
Speaker 3: because I think some of why I asked was definitely
Speaker 3: are other friendships reading between the lines and not sure
Speaker 3: how she was doing, And I didn't fully tell her that.
Speaker 1: What got lost there is I care about you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think that what happens is and what
Speaker 2: this happens so much that you clearly asked that out
Speaker 2: of concern. But in text, we do not have tonality,
Speaker 2: and so what sounds very concerned when you're saying how's
Speaker 2: your marriage comes across as how's your marriage? You know,
Speaker 2: can be read that way certainly, and it's one of
Speaker 2: those where you intended something one way, she read it
Speaker 2: very much differently, and she read it differently because she
Speaker 2: was already feeling some kind of tension distance and that
Speaker 2: was how long ago this won the marriage.
Speaker 3: Argument, Probably last year sometime.
Speaker 2: So things were brewing already. She was already feeling some
Speaker 2: kind of distance.
Speaker 1: And some kind of judgment. You did not intend this,
Speaker 1: but I think in both comments about the marriage, she
Speaker 1: interpreted that as a judgment. And when you said I
Speaker 1: don't find those kind of jokes funny, I think she
Speaker 1: interpreted that as a judgment as well, and they both
Speaker 1: seem to touch on areas that she's sensitive about. Maybe
Speaker 1: she is sensitive about her marriage, and maybe she is
Speaker 1: sensitive as you said with the comments she made over
Speaker 1: the weekend about body.
Speaker 2: Image, Wendy, and she might be sensitive about one other thing.
Speaker 2: You both came from this very small town with twenty
Speaker 2: five hundred people, and then she goes to an actually
Speaker 2: smaller town and you will go to the big city.
Speaker 2: And I think that that's symbolic, probably for her more
Speaker 2: than for you, in that she might have felt that
Speaker 2: you moved up and on in a way and she
Speaker 2: did not, and that you were now people of the
Speaker 2: big city and she was not. And maybe you are
Speaker 2: mo sophisticated, maybe you know something and she was not,
Speaker 2: but she clearly felt a part.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard because we definitely want different things
Speaker 3: in that way. She wanted to stay in a smaller town.
Speaker 3: So we've known for a long time that we were
Speaker 3: moving in different directions in that kind of a way.
Speaker 3: But the dramatic rupture was unexpected.
Speaker 1: Guy asked the question, do you and Liza ever talk
Speaker 1: about you and Liza? What about with your housemate? Do
Speaker 1: you ever have conversations that are a little bit more
Speaker 1: intimate than the kinds of conversations you've had with Liza. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: tell us about those. Can you give us some examples
Speaker 1: with the kinds of conversations you've had that have been
Speaker 1: a little bit more intimate about the two of you.
Speaker 3: A lot of our conversations about our own relationship are
Speaker 3: when we're doing well and that we're grateful to have
Speaker 3: the friendship that we have.
Speaker 2: So conflict resolution is not something that you've really ever
Speaker 2: done as friends, not much.
Speaker 1: Have you ever had an argument with your husband where
Speaker 1: you had to do some repair with each other?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about how those go? Give us
Speaker 1: one example of an argument where it was about the
Speaker 1: two of you, one of you did something that upset
Speaker 1: the other person.
Speaker 3: Well, I think what we're coming to here is that
Speaker 3: I also avoid conflict and things just take time and
Speaker 3: die off because because we usually sleep on it.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that happened
Speaker 1: where you did come back and talk about it and
Speaker 1: what that conversation was like. Because most people have arguments
Speaker 1: with their spouse rights all kinds like they sound so
Speaker 1: silly when you try to recount them. You know, it's
Speaker 1: like we had a fight over this one dish, right,
Speaker 1: those kinds of things.
Speaker 3: So in the year twenty twenty, our favorite year ever. Right,
Speaker 3: we were not sure we were going to make it
Speaker 3: through this, and it was something that I got told
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 1: You mean that your husband told you that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, I'm not sure I want us, I'm
Speaker 3: not sure I want this, And he was just at
Speaker 3: a point where he wasn't sure about anything. And that's
Speaker 3: hard because in some ways it's definitely about our relationship,
Speaker 3: but it was also about everything. When this first happened,
Speaker 3: we at our housemate, and we also had someone that
Speaker 3: we were just letting stay with us because we had
Speaker 3: a shelter and place order in our state and so
Speaker 3: they didn't want to be alone an apartment, so they
Speaker 3: were hanging out with us. So there was four of
Speaker 3: us in this house. And so, like right away, it
Speaker 3: was about trying to find moments where he could tolerate
Speaker 3: being in the same space with me and talking about
Speaker 3: it at all. And like he didn't have anything.
Speaker 1: Because he's he's afraid of talking about these things too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you say he didn't have anything to say, you
Speaker 1: mean you said, tell me what's not working for you?
Speaker 1: Were you able to say that to him?
Speaker 3: And he said, he said that things just weren't how
Speaker 3: he imagined they were going to be.
Speaker 2: Did you get into detail with him about what some
Speaker 2: of the specifics were that weren't working? Not much, No,
Speaker 2: not really, So you don't today still know what that
Speaker 2: was that wasn't working for him?
Speaker 3: Nope?
Speaker 2: And what are things with him today?
Speaker 3: We seem good right now? Yeah, this is where the
Speaker 3: podcast takes a whole different direction.
Speaker 2: Now, it's actually so much the same direction.
Speaker 1: Right That's why we're asking about it.
Speaker 3: I ended up getting called up to do some work
Speaker 3: that I was limited in how much time I could
Speaker 3: be home, and so we had a little bit of
Speaker 3: separation just via that. But I kept trying to talk
Speaker 3: to him, and he tried to be kind and responding.
Speaker 1: How did you try to keep talking to him and
Speaker 1: how did he respond?
Speaker 3: I tried to stay open and vulnerable and make it
Speaker 3: clear that I still wanted a relationship and he wasn't
Speaker 3: sure and kept not being sure, but also said he
Speaker 3: didn't want to hurt me, He didn't want me to suffer,
Speaker 3: he didn't want me to feel pain. A lot of
Speaker 3: that just like texting and communication as I was working
Speaker 3: and doing other things, and then when I was able
Speaker 3: to be here just one on one time with him,
Speaker 3: asking try and ask him if he still wanted us,
Speaker 3: if I could try to, you know, keep our relationship,
Speaker 3: and that I would like to keep him.
Speaker 2: When did did you actually ever ask him? Tell me
Speaker 2: what it is that you're not happy with? Tell me
Speaker 2: what you think we should work on? Did you ever
Speaker 2: ask him for any specifics or did you just ask
Speaker 2: do you want us?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I tried to ask what was wrong?
Speaker 1: And what did he say was wrong?
Speaker 3: I think his response was mostly that just nothing felt right.
Speaker 3: Things just weren't satisfying and weren't what he hoped things
Speaker 3: would be and hadn't been for about six months in
Speaker 3: terms of everything in.
Speaker 1: Life, but specifically to your marriage. What was different for him?
Speaker 1: What was he missing?
Speaker 3: I have no idea.
Speaker 1: Did you ask?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yes, and he said what.
Speaker 3: He just said? He this wasn't what he thought it
Speaker 3: would be.
Speaker 1: And when you said, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more specifically what is not working
Speaker 1: for you?
Speaker 3: He didn't have anything more to say.
Speaker 1: So he was silent, and then you two would just
Speaker 1: kind of stare at each other.
Speaker 2: What we were asking is how many rounds of follow
Speaker 2: up did you actually do? Because I know that with
Speaker 2: every round it's very painful the answer that you're getting,
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if that shuts you down or you
Speaker 2: then inquire further and say, what do you mean everything?
Speaker 2: Give me one example? Okay, so how long six months?
Speaker 2: What's changed for you over six months? How much follow
Speaker 2: up inquiry do you do? Not?
Speaker 3: Much more than what you did just now? As an example, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, was the exchange with Liza around the marriages? Before?
Speaker 1: During or after this? Before?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Okay? When this was going on, did you confide in
Speaker 1: your housemate who was living there with you that this
Speaker 1: was going on? Or did you confide in Liza? Did
Speaker 1: you confight in anybody?
Speaker 3: I assume that the housemate could put some things together,
Speaker 3: but she didn't say anything and was just respectful and
Speaker 3: was just a warm presence and made sure that I
Speaker 3: felt valued.
Speaker 2: In your letter, you seeing a little torn about whether
Speaker 2: to I think you said let go of Liza. Can
Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit more about that ambivalence?
Speaker 3: So some of it is surrendering an intimate, long friendship,
Speaker 3: although I don't know how intimate of a friendship we've
Speaker 3: been for a while really, And some of it is
Speaker 3: because I don't think there's a lot of other people
Speaker 3: in her life, so I worry about her in terms
Speaker 3: of not having people that she can be close with.
Speaker 1: These are reasons that the loss of the friendship might
Speaker 1: affect her. But I'm wondering about how the loss of
Speaker 1: the friendship has affected you and how you imagine it
Speaker 1: might affect you in the future.
Speaker 3: I mean, I have one last person that I can
Speaker 3: call at two am if something happens.
Speaker 1: Have you ever called her at two am?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 3: I've been lucky to not need that.
Speaker 1: Well, so you say you've been lucky to not need
Speaker 1: that your marriage almost imploded. That feels like a pretty
Speaker 1: big thing. And yet you didn't call her at two
Speaker 1: am or anyone, even your housemate. And then another big
Speaker 1: thing that you wrote in your letter was that your
Speaker 1: father died. Yeah, how did you reach out to people?
Speaker 2: Then?
Speaker 3: I talked to my partner, and I talked to my
Speaker 3: housemate or our friends in our city. I reached out
Speaker 3: to a lot of them via text to let them
Speaker 3: know what was going on, and I had some good
Speaker 3: conversations with a couple of those people.
Speaker 1: What was the conversation with your housemaid.
Speaker 3: My housemate did not like my dad, so that conversation
Speaker 3: was a lot about the torn feeling that comes with
Speaker 3: losing someone that you have a complicated relationship with, and
Speaker 3: I was able to have that conversation with her and
Speaker 3: with my partner.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you were able to really talk about that.
Speaker 1: And I think what Guy was getting at earlier is
Speaker 1: that in this conversation it might have been easier because
Speaker 1: it wasn't about you and your housemate. It was about
Speaker 1: you and your complicated feelings about losing your father when
Speaker 1: you had a difficult relationship. But I think what's hardest
Speaker 1: for anybody to talk about is what's happening between the
Speaker 1: two of us, and it's hard for you to do
Speaker 1: that with your husband. To this day. You're not really
Speaker 1: clear about why he wanted to end your marriage, and
Speaker 1: I don't think the two of you have really come
Speaker 1: to any place of emotional intimacy around that. I don't
Speaker 1: know how solid or stable you feel in the relationship.
Speaker 1: I don't know that you've had a lot of practice
Speaker 1: doing that growing up, and certainly with even this core
Speaker 1: group of friends that you've known since elementary and high school.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the piece that's missing here.
Speaker 2: There's one thing we know about relationships, and that is
Speaker 2: that for them to survive and thrive, and this is
Speaker 2: true of romantic relationships, but really it's true of most
Speaker 2: friendships as well, you have to be able to develop
Speaker 2: skills with conflict resolution. And conflict resolution means that you
Speaker 2: are able to talk about the conflict that you're having
Speaker 2: and result it and figure it out. And that starts
Speaker 2: with asking each other questions so that you understand better
Speaker 2: what the other person is upset about or how they
Speaker 2: feel about things. And once you have a good understanding
Speaker 2: each of you of how the other person feels and why,
Speaker 2: then you start figuring out what you can do about it,
Speaker 2: whether it's an apology or compromise, whatever that is. And
Speaker 2: that's a skill set I just don't think that you've
Speaker 2: developed very much. And I think it's it's costing you
Speaker 2: a little bit in moments where you could really use it,
Speaker 2: like with your husband. Certainly that was a moment and
Speaker 2: still is in which you need to use it, and
Speaker 2: certainly that was the case with Liza. And since you
Speaker 2: have long lasting friendships. It's going to be the case
Speaker 2: with anyone. Can you tell me a little bit, why
Speaker 2: is that something that you've really not practiced much.
Speaker 3: I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense,
Speaker 3: and it's unfortunate because it's a lot you know, it's
Speaker 3: a lot easier trying to win or lose arguments rather
Speaker 3: than engage in talking about the difficulties in your own
Speaker 3: relationships with them.
Speaker 1: When you were growing up, you said you had a
Speaker 1: difficult relationship with your father. What did conflict look like
Speaker 1: in your family?
Speaker 3: Isolating from each other mostly.
Speaker 1: So nobody really talked about what happened. It was kind
Speaker 1: of like what you've done with your husband a little
Speaker 1: bit and what you tend to do. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: guys using this term conflict resolution, which I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of people sounds like something that happens in
Speaker 1: negotiations and relationships are in a way, negotiations and another
Speaker 1: way to put it though, is rupture and repair. So
Speaker 1: there's a rupture between two people in a relationship and
Speaker 1: a friendship, and then how do you repair it. So
Speaker 1: a lot of people say, oh, we never argue, we
Speaker 1: have a great relationship, and we always say that's odd
Speaker 1: because in general, people do have disagreements if they are
Speaker 1: really emotionally intimate with each other. No two people are
Speaker 1: going to get through a real rich relationship and not
Speaker 1: have disagreements at some point or another. And so the
Speaker 1: issue isn't whether you have the ruptures. The issue is
Speaker 1: how do you repair them? And it sounds to us
Speaker 1: like you don't have a lot of practice repairing them,
Speaker 1: And no matter what you decide to do with this
Speaker 1: relationship with Eliza, that's going to be a skill that's
Speaker 1: going to come in very handy for you. I think
Speaker 1: it would help for us to just get a little
Speaker 1: more clear on one issue, which is you kind of
Speaker 1: have made it sound like you are done with the
Speaker 1: relationship and you're trying to let go. And I think
Speaker 1: what we're curious about is how did you come to
Speaker 1: that conclusion as opposed to feeling like there might be
Speaker 1: some value in continuing this friendship, but maybe in a
Speaker 1: way that's more nourishing for both of us.
Speaker 3: So one of the things I keep going back to
Speaker 3: in my mind is there's this moment where she was
Speaker 3: visiting and she was really surprised. She says, she said
Speaker 3: to me that she just didn't understand. She didn't understand
Speaker 3: my partner because he's into cooking and sports. She thought
Speaker 3: that these were incompatible features, that he couldn't be someone
Speaker 3: who is into these different things. It hurt me because
Speaker 3: it seemed like she couldn't see his humanity beyond a
Speaker 3: trope that he couldn't be more than one thing. And
Speaker 3: I have a hard time valuing someone who thinks that
Speaker 3: people can only be one thing.
Speaker 1: See, there are so many assumptions going on here, because
Speaker 1: you think that she meant your partner's weird, right, that
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with him, Whereas it could be that
Speaker 1: there was even some envy there. You know, then maybe
Speaker 1: it didn't come out that way. Maybe it came out
Speaker 1: because of her envy. It came out as an insult,
Speaker 1: you know, in tone. But it might be that maybe
Speaker 1: she's envious of that that well, you have a partner
Speaker 1: who you know watches football and cooks, but you just
Speaker 1: don't know because the two of you didn't talk about it.
Speaker 1: You didn't say, oh wait, what do you mean? It
Speaker 1: was just ouch, I'm hurt and I'm going to file
Speaker 1: that went away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like from what you're saying that Lisa
Speaker 2: hasn't added a lot of value in your life, and
Speaker 2: that the thing that's making you question whether you should
Speaker 2: let her go is your concern for her, but not
Speaker 2: that you're going to miss much of Lisa? Is that
Speaker 2: correct or? And I'm asking because this is given the
Speaker 2: reality up until now or of you not doing any
Speaker 2: repair or conflict resolution. But if that was something that
Speaker 2: you will say had a little bit of practice in,
Speaker 2: does that open possibilities with Liza or not?
Speaker 3: Really, I don't know what kind of value I would
Speaker 3: get out of a friendship with her right now, because
Speaker 3: it feels like I haven't gotten any value from that
Speaker 3: friendship for a while.
Speaker 1: So I was hearing something a little bit different. I
Speaker 1: was hearing that there were things that you would miss
Speaker 1: about this friendship. And maybe it's a piece of your childhood.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that she's entertaining and she makes you laugh.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's that just she knows you in a way
Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't know you. And it
Speaker 1: sounds like you're trying to be very binary in how
Speaker 1: you define this friendship, like Okay, we're not going to
Speaker 1: be friends, or we're going to be friends. But there's
Speaker 1: a lot in the we're going to be friends in
Speaker 1: terms of what that range looks like, and your idea is, well,
Speaker 1: she cut us off, so I'm just gonna cut her
Speaker 1: out too. But I can't seem to cut her out
Speaker 1: because I still think about her. And she sent me
Speaker 1: that note after my father died, And you have this
Speaker 1: fantasy that if you respond to that note, that you
Speaker 1: will have and you use the word in your letter closure,
Speaker 1: some kind of closure to the friendship. And I'm looking
Speaker 1: at your face and I'm seeing that there's some kind
Speaker 1: of pain around that. So I'm not sure that you
Speaker 1: know yet what you want. And so that's why I
Speaker 1: really want you to try to look at this not
Speaker 1: as how do I get closure on this friendship, but
Speaker 1: how do I get more information about whether I want
Speaker 1: to not engage in this friendship anymore. I don't think
Speaker 1: you're there yet. Does that sound right?
Speaker 2: Yeah? That does sound right, okay, Wendy. So we have
Speaker 2: two pieces of advice for you. The first is about Liza.
Speaker 2: We would like you to contact her so that you
Speaker 2: get more information about what's going on if she chooses
Speaker 2: to respond, and we think the best way for you
Speaker 2: to do that is to say to her something like Lisa,
Speaker 2: I thank you for your card. The reason it's taken
Speaker 2: me a while to respond is because I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about our friendship, and I realized that there was a
Speaker 2: lot brewing before our fight last year, and that there
Speaker 2: was a lot that was troubling you in the friendship.
Speaker 2: And I never asked to hear what that was, or
Speaker 2: what was troubling you or why you aren't feeling good
Speaker 2: in the friendship. I should have, And I realize I'm
Speaker 2: not good at doing that, but I want to get
Speaker 2: better at doing that, And so I'd love to have
Speaker 2: a conversation with you, if you're willing a video conversation,
Speaker 2: so we can talk a little bit about what happened
Speaker 2: and what this friendship means to us after so many years,
Speaker 2: and how you feel. I just love to hear a
Speaker 2: little bit more about what was going on for you.
Speaker 2: Our feeling is that she's probably felt judged by you
Speaker 2: and the other two friends. You should anticipate that if
Speaker 2: she agrees to have the conversation, that those are the
Speaker 2: kinds of things she might say, in which case, really
Speaker 2: all you need to do is say, Okay, I understand,
Speaker 2: tell me a little bit more. How you felt and oh, okay,
Speaker 2: I understand, And what you're trying to do there is
Speaker 2: really just try and see if talking about things like
Speaker 2: that with her will open things up between the two
Speaker 2: of you so you can make a decision.
Speaker 1: And really the goal of the conversation, no matter what
Speaker 1: what happens with her, is for you to get practice
Speaker 1: having these kinds of conversations. And the reason that you're
Speaker 1: going to be asking about her side of things and
Speaker 1: how she feels is because in order for you to
Speaker 1: be understood, first, you have to understand the other person.
Speaker 1: So you might have a lot of responses in your
Speaker 1: head like oh, I didn't mean that, or that was
Speaker 1: not what I said, or you have that wrong. This
Speaker 1: is not the time to bring that up. The whole
Speaker 1: task here is to listen to what she has to
Speaker 1: say so that you understand more about this person that
Speaker 1: you have this long history with. And we also want
Speaker 1: to say that at the end of that call, it's
Speaker 1: not as though you're going to determine yes, I want
Speaker 1: to be friends with her, No, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be friends with her. There's a lot of gray in there,
Speaker 1: and you see how things evolve from there. Does it
Speaker 1: open something up for the two of you. Can you
Speaker 1: continue to have conversations like this? Can she eventually hear
Speaker 1: a little bit about how you've been feeling. So that's
Speaker 1: just a place to start.
Speaker 2: One thing, I know this is going to seem very
Speaker 2: scary to you to do, because these are uncomfortable conversations
Speaker 2: for somebody who has in practice. The scary part is
Speaker 2: usually what if they say this? What if they say that?
Speaker 2: What do I say? And we're taking away that part
Speaker 2: for you because all you need to say, no matter
Speaker 2: what she says, is Okay, I understand, and if you don't,
Speaker 2: you ask questions until you do. But you actually don't
Speaker 2: have to defend, explain, justify, I rationalize, You meediately just
Speaker 2: have to listen and understand. And so there's the difficult
Speaker 2: part has been taken away a bit, so it should
Speaker 2: be a little less scary.
Speaker 1: It's a welcoming of what she says. You don't have
Speaker 1: to agree with it factually, but it's the gratitude of
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this with me. I'm so glad
Speaker 1: we can talk.
Speaker 2: Like this because it's going to be hard for her
Speaker 2: to share.
Speaker 1: She's going to need a lot of reinforcement of that
Speaker 1: You're really grateful that she feels comfortable enough to share
Speaker 1: this with you, even if she doesn't present it in
Speaker 1: the most optimal way. So that's number one, and then
Speaker 1: number two is we'd like you to do something similar
Speaker 1: with your husband. We would like you to say to him, listen,
Speaker 1: I know that things seem better between us, and I
Speaker 1: also know that you have been very careful not to
Speaker 1: hurt me. But I've been thinking about this and the
Speaker 1: not knowing hurts me more than whatever you might have
Speaker 1: to say about how you're really feeling. And so I'd
Speaker 1: like us to be able to have a conversation where
Speaker 1: I can really understand much more specifically what was going
Speaker 1: on might still be going on, And we want to
Speaker 1: give you some buckets that might help. Because he tends
Speaker 1: to kind of vague out right, you can say, how
Speaker 1: are you feeling about the ways that we communicate with
Speaker 1: each other? How are you feeling about the closeness between us,
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about the ways we have fun
Speaker 1: with each other? How are you feeling about things that
Speaker 1: go on with our families. How are you feeling about
Speaker 1: the way we handle our jobs and the way we
Speaker 1: handle things around the house.
Speaker 2: How are you feeling about our roommates.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about things that we might do
Speaker 1: in the future, like have children, How are you feeling
Speaker 1: about our sex life, how are you feeling about yourself?
Speaker 1: How are things going with you? And so when he
Speaker 1: says something very vague in the answer to these questions,
Speaker 1: you follow up with tell me more, just those three words,
Speaker 1: tell me more. I want to understand better, or what
Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Or what specifically can you
Speaker 1: give me an example and keep reassuring him during the conversation.
Speaker 1: This is so helpful for me. I know you don't
Speaker 1: want to hurt me, and things that you might say
Speaker 1: might be hard for me to hear, but they're not
Speaker 1: as hard as not having this conversation.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I mean that definitely feels like an easier
Speaker 3: proposition for the relationship that has already in some ways ended,
Speaker 3: and scarier for the one that's ongoing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, But I think it's going to
Speaker 1: be really good for you either way, no matter what
Speaker 1: happened in either of these conversations. You didn't get this
Speaker 1: growing up, and you're not getting it in any of
Speaker 1: your other relationships. It sounds like or any of the
Speaker 1: ones you've mentioned.
Speaker 2: Today you were having your turn on the headlights because
Speaker 2: you're navigating in the dark, and this will give you
Speaker 2: a light and you'll at least know what you need
Speaker 2: to navigate around. Okay, Wendy, we know this is going
Speaker 2: to be scary, but we also really know that you
Speaker 2: can do it.
Speaker 3: Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: You know, Wendy's story just reminds me that if you
Speaker 2: learn something about yourself that you're doing in one relationship
Speaker 2: in your life, check if you're doing it in any
Speaker 2: of the others, because you probably are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why I think this is going to
Speaker 1: be really effective for her is that it's opening up
Speaker 1: this possibility for her about how to handle rupture and repair.
Speaker 1: There are so many people out there like Wendy who
Speaker 1: grew up in houses where they did not get good
Speaker 1: models of what it means to resolve conflict, and that's
Speaker 1: what we're really trying to help her with here.
Speaker 2: IM really curious to see how she does.
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapist for my Heart Radio. We'll
Speaker 1: be back after a short break.
Speaker 2: So we heard from Wendy and we gave her a
Speaker 2: dual task of speaking up about the relationship and processing
Speaker 2: something with someone, maybe for the first time in her life,
Speaker 2: both with her friend and with her husband, and I
Speaker 2: think those were important conversations for her to have. Let's
Speaker 2: hear if she had them.
Speaker 5: Lauren Guy, thank you for your time and advice. I
Speaker 5: was able to talk to e Liza on the phone.
Speaker 5: I was really surprised with how receptive she was to
Speaker 5: speak with me, and she was really willing to engage
Speaker 5: and discuss her feelings about things. It was a difficult
Speaker 5: conversation for me to initiate, but it really wasn't hard
Speaker 5: once I heard her voice again and she heard mine
Speaker 5: for us to talk and be open with each other.
Speaker 5: I heard some things that were difficult to hear, but
Speaker 5: I felt incredibly capable, both during the conversation and afterwards
Speaker 5: to have ongoing conversations with her and for us to
Speaker 5: decide together what the nature of our friendship might be
Speaker 5: in the future. The conversation with my husband took a
Speaker 5: while to actually complete. We danced around it for a while,
Speaker 5: and ultimately I got some more specific answers, but it
Speaker 5: feels like something we'll have to repeat multiple times before
Speaker 5: we really communicate well together. That said, I'm not afraid
Speaker 5: of any shading that conversation again, and I feel a
Speaker 5: lot less afraid of what's being left unsaid by probing
Speaker 5: a little bit more and just listening to one another.
Speaker 1: The thing about having conversations like this for the very
Speaker 1: first time is that it really depends on who you're
Speaker 1: having them with, because it sounds like maybe Liza wasn't
Speaker 1: able earlier to be more direct about how she was feeling,
Speaker 1: but she was incredibly receptive, and that was the first
Speaker 1: thing that Wendy said. She was receptive, She wanted to
Speaker 1: have the conversation, she participated in the conversation, and they
Speaker 1: were both really willing to be open with each other.
Speaker 1: I think the problem with the conversation with her husband
Speaker 1: is that he is not receptive, so she has no
Speaker 1: practice doing this. She has never in her life had
Speaker 1: practice having a conversation with somebody about that relationship. So
Speaker 1: she may have been vulnerable in other ways, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't about what's going on between you and me right now.
Speaker 1: That is a conversation she's never had. Liza was open
Speaker 1: to that. Her husband, we suspected from our earlier conversation,
Speaker 1: was probably not going to be very open to that.
Speaker 1: And so I think that just by virtue of her
Speaker 1: coming to him and saying, I want to talk about this,
Speaker 1: that it will take some time, but that she's opened
Speaker 1: a door there, just a little bit that had been
Speaker 1: slammed shut between them.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for Lisa because Liza gave her and us
Speaker 2: the opening to say, you need to practice having these
Speaker 2: conversations because really you need to have them with your husband.
Speaker 2: That seemed much more urgent and important than with Liza.
Speaker 2: I mean, Lisa's a friend, and I think that's important,
Speaker 2: but there were issues going on with a husband that
Speaker 2: really needed to be addressed. I'm hoping she continues this
Speaker 2: dialogue with Liza. It will help her to then continue
Speaker 2: having the dialogue with her husband. If she can practice
Speaker 2: on Liza, who's a better responder, she can then bring
Speaker 2: that perhaps to conversations with her husband and over time,
Speaker 2: get them to be more open with one another. Because
Speaker 2: clearly that was sounded like it was a bit of
Speaker 2: teeth pulling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I hope that Liza not only models for
Speaker 1: her how can I have these conversations with my husband?
Speaker 1: But I also hope that Liza can be a support
Speaker 1: for her and maybe encourage her to be more open
Speaker 1: with her husband, to really give her the moral support,
Speaker 1: give her the you know the things that friends can
Speaker 1: do to kind of hold you up when you're doing
Speaker 1: something very difficult.
Speaker 2: Well, that would really be a nice switch to rough right,
Speaker 2: because their last fight was about relationships with husbands and
Speaker 2: who's had problems. And the suspicion was that both did.
Speaker 2: My measure of whether a conversation was successful, the minimum
Speaker 2: bar really is do you feel an easing after the
Speaker 2: conversation or do you feel crease of tension? And it
Speaker 2: sounds like in both those conversations that were somewhat of
Speaker 2: an easy so they were both successful, even the one
Speaker 2: with her husband, because she did sound like she felt
Speaker 2: a little bit better. She said she's less afraid of
Speaker 2: the unsaid things. So to me, that's an indication it
Speaker 2: was perhaps as successful as a first effort might be.
Speaker 1: That's something I really want people listening to this to understand,
Speaker 1: is that the opening conversation is the beginning of something.
Speaker 1: It's setting the stage for something, it's planting the seeds.
Speaker 1: And I like your way guy of measuring the success
Speaker 1: of a conversation, because I think in both instances, these
Speaker 1: conversations were a success.
Speaker 2: Next week, a young man seeks all counsel on whether
Speaker 2: to try to get his girlfriend.
Speaker 6: Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I
Speaker 6: know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and
Speaker 6: you know I told her I don't have to have
Speaker 6: a drink again.
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