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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist's Advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy Advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, our fellow traveler Wonders had a menda relationship

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Speaker 1: after a childhood friend severs ties.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what kind of value I would get

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Speaker 4: out of a friendship with her right now, because it

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Speaker 4: feels like I haven't gotten any value from that friendship

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Speaker 4: for a while.

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Speaker 3: First, a quick note de therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 3: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 3: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional or

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Speaker 3: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 3: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi Guy,

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Speaker 3: Hi Laurie. What do we have in our mailbox today?

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Speaker 1: Well, today we have a letter about a broken friendship.

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Speaker 1: It goes like this, Dear therapists. I had a childhood friend, Liza,

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Speaker 1: who suddenly cut ties with me and two other longtime

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Speaker 1: friends almost a year ago. After she traveled to visit

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Speaker 1: our city for a weekend together. We had a mild

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Speaker 1: disagreement in a group text. It escalated unpredictably. The other

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Speaker 1: three of us did not understand and how or why.

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Speaker 1: Then she stopped responding and she severed our social media connections.

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Speaker 1: None of us independently reached out to her. Maybe some

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Speaker 1: friendships should end. My father died soon thereafter, and months

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Speaker 1: after his death, I got a condolence card from her

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Speaker 1: that said she knew he and I weren't close, but

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Speaker 1: she still was sorry. For my loss. I don't know

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Speaker 1: she hesitated to send it, or it took time before

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Speaker 1: she found out he died. Months have passed and I

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Speaker 1: haven't responded. Maybe I should let it lie, as I have,

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Speaker 1: but I keep thinking about it. I get angry because

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Speaker 1: if she actually cared, she could have asked about his

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Speaker 1: worsening health the weekend of her visit. But she did not,

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Speaker 1: even as I was late letting her into my home

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Speaker 1: because I was visiting him at the hospital. She clearly

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Speaker 1: has my address, my email, my phone number. The card

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Speaker 1: feels like a way to bandage herself image rather than

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Speaker 1: a way to give me comfort. At the same time,

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Speaker 1: what a year last year was on everyone? If I

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Speaker 1: read her card at face value, perhaps it's just a

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Speaker 1: good will gesture, certainly no effort for repair, but respect

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Speaker 1: for the years we did spend as friends. What do

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Speaker 1: I tell myself to let this go? Do I send

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Speaker 1: a simple, efficient thank you so that I close this out?

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Speaker 3: Wendy, that's a really complicated, painful situation. The thing about

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Speaker 3: childhood friends is that either you grow in a similar

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Speaker 3: direction together in life, or you grow apart in some way. Now,

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Speaker 3: there are plenty of childhood friends who grow apart but

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Speaker 3: can still maintain their friendship. They just have to reformulate

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Speaker 3: it a little bit so it matches who they are

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Speaker 3: as adults. We change a lot in our lives and

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Speaker 3: you often have to reformulate what that friendship is about.

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Speaker 3: And when they're four friends, one of them might not

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Speaker 3: fit anymore.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people don't realize sometimes how intense friendships

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Speaker 1: can be, especially when it's a childhood friend and that

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Speaker 1: person has known you your entire life. So let's go

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Speaker 1: talk to Wendy and find out what happened and what

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Speaker 1: her ambivalence is about.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. So Hi Wendy,

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Speaker 3: Hi there, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Sure. So, we read your letter and this sounds like

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Speaker 1: a complicated friend situation and we wanted to understand a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about the history of your friendship with Liza.

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Speaker 4: So, Liza and I have been had been friends for

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Speaker 4: probably eighteen years. One of those situations where we grew

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Speaker 4: up in the same small midwestern town, which means under

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Speaker 4: twenty five hundred people in the Midwest. So we've known

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Speaker 4: each other our whole lives, been to each other's weddings,

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Speaker 4: all that kind of thing. She ended up moving to

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Speaker 4: a smaller town as we got older, and I've moved

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Speaker 4: to the Twin Cities, which is a little bit more urban,

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Speaker 4: and then, I don't know, I think our lives kind

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Speaker 4: of went different directions and we are where we are now,

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Speaker 4: which is not talking to each other.

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Speaker 3: How do the two other friends figure in?

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Speaker 4: So we were all childhood friends.

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Speaker 3: From that one small town. Yes, yeah, oh well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, in a small town, everyone knows each other. So

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Speaker 4: one of our friends came in fourth grade, she moved

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Speaker 4: to our town, and that's when we became friends with her.

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Speaker 4: And then the other three of us were basically born

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Speaker 4: and raised in our small town, and so we've kept

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Speaker 4: in touch. The one who moved in actually left town

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Speaker 4: a few years later, but she's maintained a friendship with

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Speaker 4: us throughout the years. And now we're in our late

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Speaker 4: twenties and all of us were still pretty close. The

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Speaker 4: three of us ended up all in the Twin Cities.

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Speaker 4: One actually lives with me now. My housemate. Two of

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Speaker 4: us are partnered, one of us is not. None of

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Speaker 4: us have kids.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the nature of your friendship

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Speaker 1: with Liza, you know, tell us a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about what that friendship has been like up to the

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Speaker 1: point of the rupture.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, we grew up together, We went to the same

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Speaker 4: college for a little while I was in her wedding,

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Speaker 4: I had a very small we called a gorilla wedding.

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Speaker 4: We just eloped with seven of our closest friends and

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Speaker 4: she was at that. So we maintained a pretty good

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Speaker 4: connection in a lot of ways, at least on the

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Speaker 4: surface as far as it goes. We were always better

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Speaker 4: at reaching out to e Liza to communicate than she

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Speaker 4: was to us, and it felt that way most of

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Speaker 4: the time. That we had to initiate conversations, and of

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Speaker 4: course that when you live in different states and different towns,

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Speaker 4: that's a pretty important part of the friendship. I would

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Speaker 4: contact her and ask her how she was doing, and

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Speaker 4: organize events if we were going to get together.

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Speaker 1: You said, you've been friends for eighteen years and you're

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Speaker 1: in your late twenties. Do you remember when you were

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Speaker 1: going through school together what that friendship was like in

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Speaker 1: terms of did you guys argue, was it a smooth friendship?

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Speaker 1: Did you confight in each other? Did you feel like

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Speaker 1: she had your back? And did she feel like you

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Speaker 1: had her back?

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Speaker 4: It was a close friendship. We were very smooth friends.

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Speaker 4: Before fourth grade, she was more in a different group

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Speaker 4: of friends, so I knew her before that, but she

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Speaker 4: became one of my close friends and we really didn't argue,

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Speaker 4: didn't fight. She was very just very easy going and

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Speaker 4: was not argumentative, and I think she really tried to

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Speaker 4: avoid conflict all the time.

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Speaker 3: When you were friends. Did she also not take initiative?

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Speaker 3: Were you also the one who had to say, hey

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Speaker 3: let's get together, Hey let's do this? Or what? Did

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Speaker 3: she take more initiative? Was she real proactive? No?

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Speaker 4: I think that she didn't really take a lot of

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Speaker 4: initiative throughout the course of our lives. She was always

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Speaker 4: willing to go along with things and a happy participant,

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Speaker 4: but didn't initiate ideas. I think this has been a

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Speaker 4: long time coming in terms of not engaging a lot.

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Speaker 4: And this is hard because, of course, it's not just

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Speaker 4: when we've been friends. For this line, it doesn't feel

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Speaker 4: like the relationship is just me and her. It's me

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Speaker 4: and her and our other mutual friends because we've been

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Speaker 4: a group of friends for so long, so for a

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Speaker 4: number of years since they graduated college. If I reached out,

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Speaker 4: she would respond to me and ask questions and engage

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Speaker 4: in a conversation. If our other friend reached out, she

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Speaker 4: would often just ignore the text. But if we got.

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Speaker 1: Together, she wasn't as close with the other two.

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Speaker 4: It always seemed like she was closer to the person

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Speaker 4: who she ignored than to me. But I think that

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Speaker 4: I'm the more persistent one, so she would respond to

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Speaker 4: me because I would call her out on it if

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Speaker 4: she didn't.

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Speaker 1: Usually, in a friend group, there are people who are

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Speaker 1: closer than other people in the group, So how would

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Speaker 1: you characterize those relationships within the group? Who was closest

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Speaker 1: with whom?

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Speaker 4: So me and my housemate have definitely always been the closest.

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Speaker 4: Beyond that, it always felt like Liza was a little

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Speaker 4: bit closer with my housemate than to me. They both

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Speaker 4: attended the same college until they graduated. They engaged in

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Speaker 4: the same sports activities, so they have those types of

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Speaker 4: bonding experiences, so it felt like Liza was closer to her,

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Speaker 4: but she would be more communicative with me.

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Speaker 1: She was close. It felt like she was closer to

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Speaker 1: her just because they saw each other more, or because

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Speaker 1: they actually had more emotional intimacy.

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Speaker 4: That's a good question. Maybe I did have more emotional

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Speaker 4: intimacy with her, and then they had more time together.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what do you like about Liza?

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Speaker 1: So the friendship persisted for a long time, you made

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Speaker 1: a lot of effort to stay in touch with her.

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Speaker 1: Tell me what you like about her.

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Speaker 4: I like sharing laughter with her. I like sharing old jokes.

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Speaker 4: The comfort of really long friendship is really nice and special,

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Speaker 4: and I think there is an intimacy that you develop

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Speaker 4: over time that's certainly hard to achieve quickly.

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Speaker 1: But again, my question is what do you like about her?

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Speaker 1: What qualities do you like?

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Speaker 4: And I don't know what answer I have to that anymore.

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Speaker 1: You must have enjoyed something about her, because there are

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Speaker 1: lots of people you can talk about your childhood with,

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Speaker 1: but you chose her. So what qualities did you like

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Speaker 1: about her before this happened.

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Speaker 4: I liked her goofiness and her sense of humor. I

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Speaker 4: liked her her comebacks. She makes the most amazing facial

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Speaker 4: expressions that they're all just comical and she has no

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Speaker 4: idea she's making them, and they're always ridiculous, and it

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Speaker 4: just fills your heart with joy.

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Speaker 1: Did you think she was kind? Did you think that

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Speaker 1: she had your back? Did you think she cared about you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I did think that she cared about us, And

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Speaker 4: I thought she was loyal and trustworthy and would be

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Speaker 4: there for me when I needed her.

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Speaker 3: I would like to hear about the rupture, about what happened.

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Speaker 4: So she came to visit our city and she stayed

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Speaker 4: with me at our house, which we just got last year,

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Speaker 4: so it was her first time seeing the place, hanging

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Speaker 4: out with us here, and chose in town from work,

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Speaker 4: so she came and stayed through the weekend. And as

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Speaker 4: she was driving home that weekend, she texted something.

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Speaker 5: That was like a fat joke, and I responded that

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Speaker 5: I didn't like those kind of jokes, and she told

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Speaker 5: me to calm down, which is, in my personal experience,

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Speaker 5: the best way to make me not calm down, because

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Speaker 5: I felt like I was already calm, as you always do.

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Speaker 4: When you get told that, and then things just blew up.

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Speaker 4: She said that we had different senses of humors and

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Speaker 4: different values and that she didn't feel like she could

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Speaker 4: say anything to us and not to contact her again.

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Speaker 1: Were you surprised by the intensity of her reaction asking

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Speaker 1: you never to contact her again?

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, we were all surprised.

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Speaker 3: You are the two friends they were by standards in this.

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Speaker 3: So did they actually participate in that conversation?

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Speaker 4: It was in a group chat between the four of us,

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Speaker 4: and one of them participated a little bit and said

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Speaker 4: she didn't understand the reaction, and the other person remained silent.

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Speaker 1: Was the housemate the person who participated a little bit

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Speaker 1: or who remained silent.

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Speaker 4: The housemate was the one who participated.

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Speaker 3: So was that zero to sixty and two seconds? So

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Speaker 3: whether a couple of stages of build up in between,

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Speaker 3: in between I don't like those kinds of jokes and

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Speaker 3: the never duck on my doorstep again? Was there a

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Speaker 3: couple of steps?

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Speaker 4: It was pretty rapid.

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Speaker 1: It was.

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Speaker 4: I thought I was trying to politely say I don't

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Speaker 4: like those kinds of jokes, and I'm sure there's two

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Speaker 4: sides to how that can be interpreted. But it went

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Speaker 4: from me saying that to I want nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with you within minutes.

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Speaker 1: Is there some history around body image with Liza that

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Speaker 1: you're aware of that made her have that reaction in

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 4: So throughout the weekend when we were together, she made

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Speaker 4: some comments about eating and her body, and I didn't

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Speaker 4: say anything.

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Speaker 6: What kinds of comments, like she'd be eating a piece

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Speaker 6: of candy and then say something self denigrating and I

279
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Speaker 6: didn't know how to respond and didn't like hearing her

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Speaker 6: talk about herself that way.

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Speaker 1: So she'd say something like, Oh, I shouldn't be eating

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Speaker 1: this because I'm so fat.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, things like that. And she's always liked to snack,

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Speaker 4: and she's had two kids, and she's had body issues

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Speaker 4: because she was in the military, and so she had

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Speaker 4: to maintain a certain standard and struggled with that at times.

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Speaker 4: So I know that that has been a thing for her.

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Speaker 4: Amongst our group, I feel like none of us ever

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Speaker 4: talk about our bodies and negative ways to each other.

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Speaker 1: Can we get a little more detail on what happened

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Speaker 1: between Hey, I don't like those kinds of jokes and

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Speaker 1: calm down and then never talk to me again.

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Speaker 4: I don't think there really was much more than that.

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Speaker 4: There was just a rapid evolution to we don't think

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Speaker 4: the same way. We don't have the same humor or

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Speaker 4: values or body issues, and she didn't feel safe talking

297
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Speaker 4: to us about things because she didn't want to be

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Speaker 4: in arguments.

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Speaker 3: So I mean it sounded that she had been holding

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Speaker 3: a lot in and that accumulating a lot of I

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Speaker 3: don't know a grievances, feelings. Had she voiced any of

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Speaker 3: those concerns previously?

303
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Speaker 4: No, No, we just had two and a half days

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Speaker 4: together with no arguments.

305
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Speaker 1: Have you guys ever had an argument?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about that?

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Speaker 4: Oh, oh gosh, Well, the last argument I can think

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Speaker 4: of is me asking how her relationship was with her husband,

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Speaker 4: and her turning around and asking me how mine was.

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Speaker 4: We're so far away from her, I guess I was

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Speaker 4: trying to check in to see if they were okay.

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Speaker 1: Did you have reason to believe that things were not okay.

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Speaker 4: Based off of them not having pictures together on social

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Speaker 4: media when she used to do that kind of thing

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Speaker 4: and have pictures of them together on social media, and

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Speaker 4: then not not talking about him much in conversations with us,

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Speaker 4: just being hush about it.

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Speaker 1: Did you just say how are things going with your husband?

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Speaker 1: She didn't answer and said, how are things going with

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Speaker 1: your husband? Where's the argument? Help us flush that out

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Speaker 1: a little bit.

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Speaker 4: I think that I asked, and then she she was

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Speaker 4: insulted that I asked how things were going.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, and just be clear that was the argument

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Speaker 3: because I'm from New York. I just want to be clear.

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Speaker 4: Uh, yes, in the Midwest. This is how we argue.

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Speaker 1: I had the same question.

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Speaker 3: Because I want my money back.

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Speaker 1: I get it.

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Speaker 4: Was the show. That's the show. Yeah, that's that's the

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Speaker 4: last time I could think of that. We got angry

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Speaker 4: at each other before this.

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Speaker 1: Wait, how do so here's our question? Because we because

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Speaker 1: this is this is like you're putting us in a

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Speaker 1: different frame of mind about what an argument is. So

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Speaker 1: you said, how are things going with your husband? And

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Speaker 1: she said how are things going with yours? And then

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Speaker 1: you guys didn't talk anymore. But that was the argument,

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Speaker 1: and you both assumed that the other person was offended

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Speaker 1: by the question.

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Speaker 4: No, it was. There was heated things between those two flagship.

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Speaker 1: Oh will help us, Okay, So that's what we'd like

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Speaker 1: to know. So you can you take us through the

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Speaker 1: dialogue a little bit more.

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Speaker 4: It was in text. I don't think I have the

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Speaker 4: text anymore. I think the flavor was basically none of

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Speaker 4: your damn business, and who are you to ask? And

349
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Speaker 4: what about you? How are things for you? How am

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Speaker 4: I supposed to know any of that stuff?

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Speaker 1: And how did you respond to that? One example is

352
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Speaker 1: somebody might say, you know, oh, I'm really sorry. I

353
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Speaker 1: didn't mean to upset you. I just want to hear

354
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Speaker 1: what's going on with you? And other question is what's

355
00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 1: going on here? I'm really confused about why you're so upset.

356
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Speaker 1: What was your response?

357
00:21:06,799 --> 00:21:09,919
Speaker 4: Probably some blend of those things, with a little bit

358
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Speaker 4: of of anger back. Things are fine here, and there's

359
00:21:16,519 --> 00:21:18,479
Speaker 4: people who can see that things are fine here.

360
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Speaker 1: So defensiveness, like you're defending your marriage, but you're not

361
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Speaker 1: talking about what's happening between you and Liza. Yeah, neither

362
00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:27,039
Speaker 1: of you is.

363
00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 3: Have you and Isa ever talked about you and Liza?

364
00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:33,679
Speaker 4: If we have, I don't know when it would have been,

365
00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 4: So that's a no.

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Speaker 1: So you defended your marriage and then what happened The

367
00:21:41,559 --> 00:21:44,399
Speaker 1: texting just stopped and you picked up another time and

368
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Speaker 1: you never spoke of it again, or you somehow repaired that.

369
00:21:48,039 --> 00:21:49,079
Speaker 1: What happened exactly?

370
00:21:50,319 --> 00:21:53,799
Speaker 4: She got defensive, I got defensive back. I don't remember

371
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Speaker 4: if I tried to justify to her why I asked

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Speaker 4: in the first place. I think that I probably tried

373
00:22:00,799 --> 00:22:04,439
Speaker 4: to communicate that a little bit, but certainly not entirely,

374
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Speaker 4: because I think some of why I asked was definitely

375
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Speaker 4: are other friendships reading between the lines and not sure

376
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Speaker 4: how she was doing, And I didn't fully tell her that.

377
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Speaker 1: What got lost there is I care about you.

378
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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think that what happens is and what

379
00:22:25,239 --> 00:22:28,919
Speaker 3: this happens so much that you clearly asked that out

380
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Speaker 3: of concern. But in text we do not have tonality,

381
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Speaker 3: and so what sounds very concerned when you're saying how's

382
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Speaker 3: your marriage comes across as how's your marriage? You know,

383
00:22:41,159 --> 00:22:43,799
Speaker 3: can be read that way certainly, and it's one of

384
00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,039
Speaker 3: those where you intended something one way. She read it

385
00:22:46,439 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 3: very much differently, and she read it differently because she

386
00:22:48,439 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 3: was already feeling some kind of tension distance And that

387
00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 3: was how long ago this won the marriage.

388
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Speaker 4: Argument, probably last year sometime, so.

389
00:22:57,919 --> 00:23:01,039
Speaker 3: Things were brewing already. She was already feeling some kind

390
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Speaker 3: of distance.

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Speaker 1: And some kind of judgment. You did not intend this,

392
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Speaker 1: but I think in both comments about the marriage, she

393
00:23:08,719 --> 00:23:11,719
Speaker 1: interpreted that as a judgment and when you said I

394
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Speaker 1: don't find those kind of jokes funny, I think she

395
00:23:13,959 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: interpreted that as a judgment as well. And they both

396
00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 1: seem to touch on areas that she's sensitive about. Maybe

397
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Speaker 1: she is sensitive about her marriage, and maybe she is sensitive,

398
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Speaker 1: as you said with the comments she made over the

399
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Speaker 1: weekend about body.

400
00:23:26,679 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: Image, Wendy, and she might be sensitive about one other thing.

401
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 3: You both came from this very small town with twenty

402
00:23:32,479 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 3: five hundred people, and then she goes to an actually

403
00:23:35,639 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 3: smaller town and you will go to the big city.

404
00:23:39,239 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 3: And I think that that's symbolic, probably for her more

405
00:23:42,159 --> 00:23:44,959
Speaker 3: than for you, in that she might have felt that

406
00:23:44,999 --> 00:23:47,519
Speaker 3: you moved up and on in a way and she

407
00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:49,999
Speaker 3: did not, and that you were now people of the

408
00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 3: big city and she was not. And maybe you are

409
00:23:53,639 --> 00:23:57,119
Speaker 3: mo sophisticated, maybe you know something and she was not,

410
00:23:57,239 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 3: but she clearly felt a part.

411
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,799
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard because we definitely want different things

412
00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 4: in that way. She wanted to stay in a smaller town,

413
00:24:08,399 --> 00:24:10,559
Speaker 4: so we've known for a long time that we were

414
00:24:10,599 --> 00:24:13,199
Speaker 4: moving in different directions in that kind of a way.

415
00:24:13,479 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 4: But the dramatic rupture was unexpected.

416
00:24:16,599 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: Guy asked the question, do you and Liza ever talk

417
00:24:18,919 --> 00:24:22,319
Speaker 1: about you and Liza? What about with your housemate? Do

418
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: you ever have conversations that are a little bit more

419
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: intimate than the kinds of conversations you've had with Liza?

420
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:28,039
Speaker 4: Yeah?

421
00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, tell us about those. Can you give us some

422
00:24:30,919 --> 00:24:33,039
Speaker 1: examples with the kinds of conversations you've had that have

423
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 1: been a little bit more intimate about the two of you.

424
00:24:37,039 --> 00:24:40,999
Speaker 4: A lot of our conversations about our own relationship are

425
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 4: when we're doing well and that we're grateful to have

426
00:24:45,719 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 4: the friendship that we have.

427
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:52,039
Speaker 3: So conflict resolution is not something that you've really ever

428
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: done as friends, not much.

429
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:59,799
Speaker 1: Have you ever had an argument with your husband where

430
00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:01,839
Speaker 1: you had to do some repair with each other?

431
00:25:02,639 --> 00:25:02,999
Speaker 4: Yes?

432
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about how those go? Give us

433
00:25:06,399 --> 00:25:08,599
Speaker 1: one example of an argument where it was about the

434
00:25:08,599 --> 00:25:11,079
Speaker 1: two of you, if you did something that upset the

435
00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 1: other person.

436
00:25:12,719 --> 00:25:15,319
Speaker 4: Well, I think what we're coming to here is that

437
00:25:15,439 --> 00:25:18,999
Speaker 4: I also avoid conflict and things just take time and

438
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 4: die off because because we usually sleep on it.

439
00:25:25,479 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that happened

440
00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:29,759
Speaker 1: where you did come back and talk about it and

441
00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:33,519
Speaker 1: what that conversation was like. Because most people have arguments

442
00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: with their spouse rights, all kinds like they sound so

443
00:25:36,439 --> 00:25:39,519
Speaker 1: silly when you try to recount them. You know, it's

444
00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: like we had a fight over this one dish right,

445
00:25:43,679 --> 00:25:44,519
Speaker 1: those kinds of things.

446
00:25:45,319 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 4: So in the year twenty twenty, our favorite year ever, right,

447
00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 4: we were not sure we were going to make it

448
00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,239
Speaker 4: through this, and it was something that I got told

449
00:25:56,239 --> 00:25:56,479
Speaker 4: to me.

450
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,039
Speaker 1: You mean that your husband told you that.

451
00:26:00,199 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, he said, I'm not sure I want us, I'm

452
00:26:02,679 --> 00:26:04,759
Speaker 4: not sure I want this, And he was just at

453
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:07,799
Speaker 4: a point where he wasn't He wasn't sure about anything.

454
00:26:08,919 --> 00:26:11,799
Speaker 4: And that's how because in some ways it's definitely about

455
00:26:11,879 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 4: our relationship, but it was also about everything. When this

456
00:26:18,039 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 4: first happened, we had our housemate, and we also had

457
00:26:20,639 --> 00:26:23,279
Speaker 4: someone that we were just letting stay with us because

458
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 4: we had a sheltered place order in our state, and

459
00:26:26,159 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 4: so they didn't want to be alone an apartment, so

460
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,999
Speaker 4: they were hanging out with us. So there was four

461
00:26:30,039 --> 00:26:34,479
Speaker 4: of us in this house, and so like right away,

462
00:26:34,639 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 4: it was about trying to find moments where he could

463
00:26:39,399 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 4: tolerate being in the same space with me and talking

464
00:26:43,279 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 4: about it at all, and like he didn't have.

465
00:26:46,159 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: Anything because he's afraid of talking about these things too. Yeah,

466
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 1: when you say he didn't have anything to say, you

467
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:56,599
Speaker 1: mean you said, tell me what's not working for you?

468
00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:58,759
Speaker 1: Were you able to say that to him?

469
00:27:00,399 --> 00:27:03,999
Speaker 4: And he said, he said that things just weren't how

470
00:27:04,319 --> 00:27:05,639
Speaker 4: he imagined they were going to be.

471
00:27:05,999 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 3: Did you get into detail with him about what some

472
00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 3: of the specifics were that weren't working?

473
00:27:10,479 --> 00:27:10,999
Speaker 1: Not much?

474
00:27:11,159 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 3: No, not really, So you don't today still know what

475
00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:16,999
Speaker 3: that was that wasn't working for him?

476
00:27:17,559 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 4: Nope?

477
00:27:19,279 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 3: And what are things with him today?

478
00:27:21,559 --> 00:27:26,479
Speaker 4: We seem good right now? Yeah, this is where the

479
00:27:26,679 --> 00:27:28,319
Speaker 4: podcast takes a whole different direction.

480
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 3: Now, it's actually so much the same direction.

481
00:27:31,479 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: Right, That's why we're asking about it.

482
00:27:34,719 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 4: I ended up getting called up to do some work

483
00:27:37,559 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 4: that I was limited in how much time I could

484
00:27:40,199 --> 00:27:43,479
Speaker 4: be home, and so we had a little bit of

485
00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 4: separation just via that. But I kept trying to talk

486
00:27:48,199 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 4: to him, and he tried to be kind and responding.

487
00:27:52,479 --> 00:27:54,319
Speaker 1: How did you try to keep talking to him and

488
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,319
Speaker 1: how did he respond?

489
00:27:55,879 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 4: I tried to stay open and vulnerable and make it

490
00:27:59,239 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 4: clear that I still wanted a relationship and he wasn't

491
00:28:03,999 --> 00:28:08,519
Speaker 4: sure and kept not being sure, but also said he

492
00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 4: didn't want to hurt me. He didn't want me to suffer.

493
00:28:11,999 --> 00:28:14,319
Speaker 4: He didn't want me to feel pain. A lot of that,

494
00:28:14,919 --> 00:28:18,039
Speaker 4: just like texting and communication as I was working and

495
00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 4: doing other things, and then when I was able to

496
00:28:21,399 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 4: be here just one on one time with him, asking

497
00:28:24,919 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 4: try and ask him if he still wanted us, if

498
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:32,759
Speaker 4: I could try to, you know, keep our relationship, and

499
00:28:32,799 --> 00:28:34,319
Speaker 4: that I would like to keep him.

500
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,439
Speaker 3: When did did you actually ever ask him tell me

501
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:42,359
Speaker 3: what it is that you're not happy with, tell me

502
00:28:42,599 --> 00:28:45,119
Speaker 3: what you think we should work on. Did you ever

503
00:28:45,159 --> 00:28:48,839
Speaker 3: ask him for any specifics or did you just ask

504
00:28:48,879 --> 00:28:49,799
Speaker 3: do you want us?

505
00:28:50,239 --> 00:28:50,519
Speaker 1: Yeah?

506
00:28:50,639 --> 00:28:51,999
Speaker 4: I tried to ask what was wrong?

507
00:28:53,559 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 1: And what did he say was wrong?

508
00:28:55,719 --> 00:28:59,119
Speaker 4: I think his response was mostly that just nothing felt right.

509
00:29:00,039 --> 00:29:04,119
Speaker 4: Things just weren't satisfying and weren't what he hoped things

510
00:29:04,159 --> 00:29:07,479
Speaker 4: would be and hadn't been for about six months in

511
00:29:07,599 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 4: terms of everything in.

512
00:29:08,679 --> 00:29:12,959
Speaker 1: Life, but specifically to your marriage. What was different for him?

513
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:14,199
Speaker 1: What was he missing?

514
00:29:14,639 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 4: I have no idea.

515
00:29:16,639 --> 00:29:20,439
Speaker 1: Did you ask yes? And he said what?

516
00:29:21,439 --> 00:29:24,079
Speaker 4: He just said? He this wasn't what he thought it

517
00:29:24,079 --> 00:29:24,439
Speaker 4: would be.

518
00:29:25,719 --> 00:29:27,679
Speaker 1: And when you said, what do you mean by that?

519
00:29:27,759 --> 00:29:31,159
Speaker 1: Can you tell me more specifically what is not working

520
00:29:31,239 --> 00:29:31,639
Speaker 1: for you?

521
00:29:32,879 --> 00:29:34,799
Speaker 4: He didn't have anything more to say.

522
00:29:35,959 --> 00:29:38,679
Speaker 1: So he was silent, and then you too, would just

523
00:29:38,759 --> 00:29:39,759
Speaker 1: kind of stare at each other.

524
00:29:42,239 --> 00:29:45,079
Speaker 3: What we were asking is how many rounds of follow

525
00:29:45,199 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 3: up did you actually do? Because I know that with

526
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:51,839
Speaker 3: every round it's very painful the answer that you're getting,

527
00:29:51,999 --> 00:29:54,239
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if that shuts you down or you

528
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:56,759
Speaker 3: then inquire further and say, what do you mean everything?

529
00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:59,599
Speaker 3: Give me one example? Okay, so how long six months?

530
00:29:59,719 --> 00:30:02,359
Speaker 3: What's changed for you over six months? How much follow

531
00:30:02,439 --> 00:30:03,679
Speaker 3: up inquiry do you do?

532
00:30:04,479 --> 00:30:06,359
Speaker 4: Not much more than what you did just now?

533
00:30:06,559 --> 00:30:09,159
Speaker 3: As an example, Yeah, okay.

534
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:13,919
Speaker 1: The exchange with Liza around the marriages before, during or

535
00:30:13,959 --> 00:30:18,559
Speaker 1: after this? Before this, okay, when this was going on,

536
00:30:18,679 --> 00:30:21,079
Speaker 1: did you confide in your housemate who was living there

537
00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:23,599
Speaker 1: with you that this was going on? Or did you

538
00:30:23,599 --> 00:30:26,519
Speaker 1: confide in Liza? Did you con fight in anybody?

539
00:30:27,719 --> 00:30:30,479
Speaker 4: I assume that the housemate could put some things together,

540
00:30:30,999 --> 00:30:36,919
Speaker 4: but she didn't say anything and was just respectful and

541
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:40,319
Speaker 4: was just a warm presence and made sure that I

542
00:30:40,439 --> 00:30:41,319
Speaker 4: felt valued.

543
00:30:42,319 --> 00:30:46,639
Speaker 3: In your letter, you seen a little torn about whether

544
00:30:46,719 --> 00:30:50,399
Speaker 3: to I think you said let go of Liza. Can

545
00:30:50,399 --> 00:30:52,479
Speaker 3: you tell us a little bit more about that ambivalence?

546
00:30:53,639 --> 00:30:57,199
Speaker 4: So some of it is surrendering an intimate, long friendship,

547
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:00,359
Speaker 4: although I don't know how intimate of a friendship we've

548
00:31:00,399 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 4: been for a while really, And some of it is

549
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:07,439
Speaker 4: because I don't think there's a lot of other people

550
00:31:07,439 --> 00:31:11,639
Speaker 4: in her life, so I worry about her in terms

551
00:31:11,679 --> 00:31:16,639
Speaker 4: of not having people that she can be close with.

552
00:31:17,879 --> 00:31:20,879
Speaker 1: These are reasons that the loss of the friendship might

553
00:31:20,879 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 1: affect her, But I'm wondering about how the loss of

554
00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:28,959
Speaker 1: the friendship has affected you and how you imagine it

555
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:30,279
Speaker 1: might affect you in the future.

556
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:33,839
Speaker 4: I mean, I have one last person that I can

557
00:31:33,879 --> 00:31:36,599
Speaker 4: call at two am if something happens.

558
00:31:37,079 --> 00:31:38,639
Speaker 1: Have you ever called her at two am?

559
00:31:39,159 --> 00:31:40,679
Speaker 4: No? I've been lucky to not need that.

560
00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:43,199
Speaker 1: Well, so you say you've been lucky to not need

561
00:31:43,239 --> 00:31:47,799
Speaker 1: that your marriage almost imploded. That feels like a pretty

562
00:31:47,839 --> 00:31:51,439
Speaker 1: big thing. And yet you didn't call her at two

563
00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,839
Speaker 1: am or anyone, even your housemate. And then another big

564
00:31:55,879 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: thing that you wrote in your letter was that your

565
00:31:57,719 --> 00:32:02,679
Speaker 1: father died. Yeah, how did you reach out to people? Then?

566
00:32:04,839 --> 00:32:07,119
Speaker 4: I talked to my partner, and I talked to my

567
00:32:07,159 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 4: housemate or our friends in our city. I reached out

568
00:32:11,519 --> 00:32:14,079
Speaker 4: to a lot of them via text, to let them

569
00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 4: know what was going on, and I had some good

570
00:32:17,479 --> 00:32:19,439
Speaker 4: conversations with a couple of those people.

571
00:32:20,079 --> 00:32:21,759
Speaker 1: What was the conversation with your housemaid.

572
00:32:22,839 --> 00:32:28,839
Speaker 4: My housemate did not like my dad, so that conversation

573
00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:33,919
Speaker 4: was a lot about the torn feeling that comes with

574
00:32:33,999 --> 00:32:37,159
Speaker 4: losing someone that you have a complicated relationship with, and

575
00:32:37,199 --> 00:32:39,519
Speaker 4: I was able to have that conversation with her and

576
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:40,359
Speaker 4: with my partner.

577
00:32:41,359 --> 00:32:43,759
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you were able to really talk about that.

578
00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:46,159
Speaker 1: And I think what Guy was getting at earlier is

579
00:32:46,199 --> 00:32:50,199
Speaker 1: that in this conversation, it might have been easier because

580
00:32:50,239 --> 00:32:52,999
Speaker 1: it wasn't about you and your housemate. It was about

581
00:32:53,039 --> 00:32:57,439
Speaker 1: you and your complicated feelings about losing your father when

582
00:32:57,479 --> 00:33:00,759
Speaker 1: you had a difficult relationship. But I think what's hardest

583
00:33:00,759 --> 00:33:03,759
Speaker 1: for anybody to talk about is what's happening between the

584
00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:06,599
Speaker 1: two of us, and it's hard for you to do

585
00:33:06,639 --> 00:33:09,519
Speaker 1: that with your husband. To this day. You're not really

586
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:11,639
Speaker 1: clear about why he wanted to end your marriage, and

587
00:33:11,679 --> 00:33:13,839
Speaker 1: I don't think the two of you have really come

588
00:33:13,879 --> 00:33:19,439
Speaker 1: to any place of emotional intimacy around that. I don't

589
00:33:19,479 --> 00:33:22,079
Speaker 1: know how solid or stable you feel in the relationship.

590
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:24,359
Speaker 1: I don't know that you've You've had a lot of

591
00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:28,319
Speaker 1: practice doing that growing up and certainly with even this

592
00:33:28,439 --> 00:33:32,119
Speaker 1: core group of friends that you've known since elementary and

593
00:33:32,199 --> 00:33:35,399
Speaker 1: high school. And I think that's the piece that's missing here.

594
00:33:36,599 --> 00:33:39,639
Speaker 3: There's one thing we know about relationships, and that is

595
00:33:39,639 --> 00:33:43,359
Speaker 3: that for them to survive and thrive, and this is

596
00:33:43,399 --> 00:33:47,279
Speaker 3: true of romantic relationships, but really it's true of most

597
00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,879
Speaker 3: friendships as well, you have to be able to develop

598
00:33:50,959 --> 00:33:56,679
Speaker 3: skills with conflict resolution. And conflict resolution means that you

599
00:33:56,959 --> 00:34:00,239
Speaker 3: are able to talk about the conflict that you're having

600
00:34:00,999 --> 00:34:04,479
Speaker 3: and result it and figure it out. And that starts

601
00:34:04,519 --> 00:34:07,319
Speaker 3: with asking each other questions so that you understand better

602
00:34:07,479 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 3: what the other person is upset about how they feel

603
00:34:09,999 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 3: about things. And once you have a good understanding each

604
00:34:12,839 --> 00:34:14,679
Speaker 3: of you of how the other person feels and why,

605
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 3: then you start figuring out what you can do about it,

606
00:34:16,759 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 3: whether it's an apology, you compromise, whatever that is. And

607
00:34:21,319 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 3: that's a skill set I just don't think that you've

608
00:34:23,959 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 3: developed very much, and I think it's costing you a

609
00:34:27,319 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 3: little bit in moments where you could really use it,

610
00:34:30,399 --> 00:34:32,679
Speaker 3: like with your husband. Certainly that was a moment and

611
00:34:32,759 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: still is in which you need to use it, and

612
00:34:35,479 --> 00:34:38,439
Speaker 3: certainly that was the case with Liza, and since you

613
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:41,599
Speaker 3: have long lasting friendships, it's going to be the case

614
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 3: with anyone. Can you tell me a little bit why

615
00:34:44,759 --> 00:34:47,599
Speaker 3: is that something that you've really not practiced much.

616
00:34:48,439 --> 00:34:50,639
Speaker 4: I think what you're saying makes a lot of sense,

617
00:34:51,399 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 4: and it's unfortunate because it's a lot you know, it's

618
00:34:54,439 --> 00:34:57,999
Speaker 4: a lot easier trying to win or lose arguments rather

619
00:34:58,119 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 4: than engage in talking about the difficulties in your own

620
00:35:02,279 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 4: relationships with them.

621
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:05,879
Speaker 1: When you were growing up, you said you had a

622
00:35:05,919 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: difficult relationship with your father. What did conflict look like

623
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: in your family?

624
00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:16,599
Speaker 4: Isolating from each other mostly.

625
00:35:17,559 --> 00:35:20,679
Speaker 1: So nobody really talked about what happened. It was kind

626
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: of like what you've done with your husband a little

627
00:35:22,799 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: bit and what you tend to do. Yeah, you know,

628
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:32,159
Speaker 1: guys using this term conflict resolution, which I think for

629
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:36,199
Speaker 1: a lot of people sounds like something that happens in

630
00:35:36,359 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: negotiations and relationships are in a way, negotiations and another

631
00:35:41,319 --> 00:35:45,159
Speaker 1: way to put it though, is rupture and repair. So

632
00:35:45,359 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 1: there's a rupture between two people in a relationship and

633
00:35:48,479 --> 00:35:52,079
Speaker 1: a friendship, and then how do you repair it? So

634
00:35:52,119 --> 00:35:53,959
Speaker 1: a lot of people say Oh, we never argue we

635
00:35:53,999 --> 00:35:58,999
Speaker 1: have a great relationship, and we always say that's odd

636
00:35:59,399 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: because in general, people do have disagreements if they are

637
00:36:04,319 --> 00:36:09,159
Speaker 1: really emotionally intimate with each other. No two people are

638
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: go to get through a real rich relationship and not

639
00:36:12,439 --> 00:36:14,999
Speaker 1: have disagreements at some point or another. And so the

640
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:18,079
Speaker 1: issue isn't whether you have the ruptures. The issue is

641
00:36:18,439 --> 00:36:21,599
Speaker 1: how do you repair them? And it sounds to us

642
00:36:21,639 --> 00:36:25,159
Speaker 1: like you don't have a lot of practice repairing them,

643
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: And no matter what you decide to do with this

644
00:36:26,959 --> 00:36:30,039
Speaker 1: relationship with Eliza, that's going to be a skill that's

645
00:36:30,119 --> 00:36:33,079
Speaker 1: going to come in very handy for you. I think

646
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: it would help for us to just get a little

647
00:36:34,919 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: more clear on one issue, which is you kind of

648
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 1: have made it sound like you are done with the

649
00:36:39,439 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: relationship and you're trying to let go. And I think

650
00:36:42,759 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: what we're curious about is how did you come to

651
00:36:44,839 --> 00:36:48,159
Speaker 1: that conclusion as opposed to feeling like there might be

652
00:36:48,199 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: some value in continuing this friendship, but maybe in a

653
00:36:51,839 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: way that's more nourishing for both of us.

654
00:36:55,479 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 4: So one of the things I keep going back to

655
00:36:58,919 --> 00:37:03,039
Speaker 4: in my mind is there's this moment where she was

656
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:08,119
Speaker 4: visiting and she was really surprised, she says. She said

657
00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:10,639
Speaker 4: to me that she just didn't understand and she didn't

658
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,199
Speaker 4: understand my partner because he's into cooking and sports. She

659
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 4: thought that these were incompatible features, that he couldn't be

660
00:37:18,959 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 4: someone who is into these different things. It hurt me

661
00:37:22,919 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 4: because it seemed like she couldn't see his humanity beyond

662
00:37:27,359 --> 00:37:30,559
Speaker 4: a trope, that he couldn't be more than one thing.

663
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 4: And I have a hard time valuing someone who thinks

664
00:37:35,439 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 4: that people can only be one thing.

665
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 1: See, there are so many assumptions going on here, because

666
00:37:40,839 --> 00:37:46,639
Speaker 1: you think that she meant your partner's weird, right, that

667
00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:49,479
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with him, Whereas it could be that

668
00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 1: there was even some envy there. You know, then maybe

669
00:37:52,919 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: it didn't come out that way. Maybe it came out

670
00:37:54,879 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: because of her envy. It came out as an insult,

671
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,559
Speaker 1: you know, in tone. But it might be that maybe

672
00:38:00,599 --> 00:38:03,119
Speaker 1: she's envious of that that Wow, you have a partner

673
00:38:03,199 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 1: who you know watches football and cooks, But you just

674
00:38:07,319 --> 00:38:10,559
Speaker 1: don't know because the two of you, you didn't talk

675
00:38:10,599 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: about it. You didn't say, oh wait, what do you mean?

676
00:38:15,399 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: It was just ouch, I'm hurt, and I'm going to

677
00:38:18,319 --> 00:38:19,159
Speaker 1: file that one away.

678
00:38:19,279 --> 00:38:23,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like from what you're saying that Lisa

679
00:38:23,759 --> 00:38:27,679
Speaker 3: hasn't added a lot of value in your life, and

680
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 3: that the thing that's making you question whether you should

681
00:38:31,399 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 3: let her go is your concern for her, but not

682
00:38:34,959 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 3: that you're going to miss much of Lisa? Is that correct? Or?

683
00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 3: And I'm asking because this is given the reality up

684
00:38:43,879 --> 00:38:47,199
Speaker 3: until now or of you not doing any repair or

685
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: conflict resolution. But if that was something that you will

686
00:38:50,319 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 3: say had a little bit of practice in, does that

687
00:38:52,879 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 3: open possibilities with Lisa or not?

688
00:38:55,399 --> 00:38:59,559
Speaker 4: Really, I don't know what kind of value I would

689
00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 4: get out of a friendship with her right now, because

690
00:39:03,359 --> 00:39:06,119
Speaker 4: it feels like I haven't gotten any value from that

691
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 4: friendship for a while.

692
00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:10,999
Speaker 1: So I was here something a little bit different. I

693
00:39:11,039 --> 00:39:12,959
Speaker 1: was hearing that there were things that you would miss

694
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 1: about this friendship and maybe it's a piece of your childhood.

695
00:39:17,479 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just that she's entertaining and she makes you laugh.

696
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:23,599
Speaker 1: Maybe it's that just she knows you in a way

697
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,519
Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't know you. And it

698
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:27,959
Speaker 1: sounds like you're trying to be very binary in how

699
00:39:27,999 --> 00:39:31,079
Speaker 1: you define this friendship, like, Okay, we're not going to

700
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:34,639
Speaker 1: be friends or we're going to be friends. But there's

701
00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: a lot in the we're going to be friends in

702
00:39:37,359 --> 00:39:43,039
Speaker 1: terms of what that range looks like. And your idea is, well,

703
00:39:43,399 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: she cut us off, so I'm just gonna cut her

704
00:39:46,879 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: out too, But I can't seem to cut her out

705
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,039
Speaker 1: because I still think about her. And she sent me

706
00:39:52,079 --> 00:39:55,079
Speaker 1: that note after my father died. And you have this

707
00:39:55,559 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 1: fantasy that if you respond to that note, that you

708
00:39:58,479 --> 00:40:00,599
Speaker 1: will have and you use the word in your letter closure,

709
00:40:00,999 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 1: some kind of closure to the friendship. And I'm looking

710
00:40:03,839 --> 00:40:06,599
Speaker 1: at your face and I'm seeing that there's some kind

711
00:40:06,639 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: of pain around that. I'm not sure that you know

712
00:40:10,439 --> 00:40:14,679
Speaker 1: yet what you want. And so that's why I really

713
00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 1: want you to try to look at this not as

714
00:40:17,639 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: how do I get closure on this friendship, but how

715
00:40:20,399 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 1: do I get more information about whether I want to

716
00:40:25,199 --> 00:40:28,439
Speaker 1: not engage in this friendship anymore. I don't think you're

717
00:40:28,479 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: there yet. Does that sound right? Yeah?

718
00:40:31,359 --> 00:40:38,679
Speaker 3: That does sound right, okay, Wendy. So we have two

719
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,439
Speaker 3: pieces of advice for you. The first is about Lisa.

720
00:40:43,479 --> 00:40:45,559
Speaker 3: We would like you to contact her so that you

721
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:48,959
Speaker 3: get more information about what's going on. If she chooses

722
00:40:48,999 --> 00:40:50,959
Speaker 3: to respond and we think the best way for you

723
00:40:51,039 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: to do that is to say to her something like Lisa,

724
00:40:55,279 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 3: I thank you for your card. The reason it's taken

725
00:40:58,399 --> 00:41:00,679
Speaker 3: me a while to respond is because I've been thinking

726
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:05,119
Speaker 3: about our friendship and I realized that there was a

727
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: lot brewing before a fight last year, and that there

728
00:41:10,319 --> 00:41:12,519
Speaker 3: was a lot that was troubling you in the friendship.

729
00:41:12,559 --> 00:41:14,599
Speaker 3: And I never asked to hear what that was or

730
00:41:15,319 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 3: what was troubling you or why you weren't feeling good

731
00:41:17,919 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 3: in the friendship, and I should have, And I realized

732
00:41:19,919 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 3: I'm not good at doing that, but I want to

733
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,159
Speaker 3: get better at doing that, And so i'd love to

734
00:41:25,159 --> 00:41:28,079
Speaker 3: have a conversation with you, if you're willing a video conversation,

735
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:30,519
Speaker 3: so we can talk a little bit about what happened

736
00:41:30,679 --> 00:41:35,199
Speaker 3: and what this friendship means to us after so many years,

737
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: and how you feel. I just love to hear a

738
00:41:36,839 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 3: little bit more about what was going on for you.

739
00:41:40,479 --> 00:41:46,679
Speaker 3: Our feeling is that she's probably felt judged by you

740
00:41:47,399 --> 00:41:51,159
Speaker 3: and the other two friends. You should anticipate that if

741
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 3: she agrees to have the conversation, that those are the

742
00:41:53,999 --> 00:41:56,999
Speaker 3: kinds of things she might say, in which case, really

743
00:41:57,079 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 3: all you need to do is say, okay, I understand,

744
00:41:59,879 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 3: tell me a little bit more how you felt, and oh, okay,

745
00:42:02,799 --> 00:42:05,439
Speaker 3: I understand. And what you're trying to do there is

746
00:42:05,519 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 3: really just try and see if talking about things like

747
00:42:09,879 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: that with her will open things up between the two

748
00:42:12,759 --> 00:42:14,559
Speaker 3: of you so you can make a decision.

749
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:18,679
Speaker 1: And really the goal of the conversation, no matter what

750
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,519
Speaker 1: happens with her, is for you to get practice having

751
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:24,919
Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations. And the reason that you're going

752
00:42:24,959 --> 00:42:27,839
Speaker 1: to be asking about her side of things and how

753
00:42:27,879 --> 00:42:30,959
Speaker 1: she feels is because in order for you to be understood, first,

754
00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 1: you have to understand the other person. So you might

755
00:42:34,479 --> 00:42:37,199
Speaker 1: have a lot of responses in your head like oh,

756
00:42:37,279 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that, or that was not what I said,

757
00:42:40,839 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 1: or you have that wrong. This is not the time

758
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:47,399
Speaker 1: to bring that up. The whole task here is to

759
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:50,119
Speaker 1: listen to what she has to say so that you

760
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: understand more about this person that you have this long

761
00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:56,199
Speaker 1: history with. And we also want to say that at

762
00:42:56,199 --> 00:42:58,079
Speaker 1: the end of that call. It's not as though you're

763
00:42:58,119 --> 00:43:00,439
Speaker 1: going to determine yes, I want to be friends with her, No,

764
00:43:00,479 --> 00:43:02,959
Speaker 1: I don't want to be friends with her. There's a

765
00:43:02,999 --> 00:43:05,559
Speaker 1: lot of gray in there and you see how things

766
00:43:05,639 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: evolve from there? Does it open something up for the

767
00:43:08,319 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: two of you? Can you can continue to have conversations

768
00:43:10,799 --> 00:43:14,199
Speaker 1: like this? Can she eventually hear a little bit about

769
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,519
Speaker 1: how you've been feeling? So that's just a place to start.

770
00:43:18,039 --> 00:43:19,919
Speaker 3: One thing, Wendy, I know this is going to seem

771
00:43:19,999 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 3: very scary to you to do, because these are uncomfortable

772
00:43:22,359 --> 00:43:25,079
Speaker 3: conversations for somebody who has in practice, The scary part

773
00:43:25,199 --> 00:43:27,479
Speaker 3: is usually what if they say this? What if they

774
00:43:27,519 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 3: say that? What do I say? And we're taking away

775
00:43:29,799 --> 00:43:31,519
Speaker 3: that part for you because all you need to say,

776
00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:33,919
Speaker 3: no matter what she says, is Okay, I understand, and

777
00:43:33,919 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 3: if you don't, you ask questions until you do. But

778
00:43:35,919 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: you actually don't have to defend, explain, justify, I rationalize,

779
00:43:39,279 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: you meediately just have to listen and understand. And so

780
00:43:41,319 --> 00:43:44,959
Speaker 3: there's the difficult part has been taken away a bit,

781
00:43:44,999 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 3: so it should be a little less scary.

782
00:43:46,959 --> 00:43:49,479
Speaker 1: It's a welcoming of what she says. You don't have

783
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:53,159
Speaker 1: to agree with it factually, but it's the gratitude of

784
00:43:53,479 --> 00:43:55,479
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing this with me. I'm so glad

785
00:43:55,479 --> 00:43:56,159
Speaker 1: we can talk.

786
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:57,599
Speaker 3: Like this because it's going to be hard for her

787
00:43:57,639 --> 00:43:57,959
Speaker 3: to share.

788
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:00,439
Speaker 1: She's going to need a lot of reinforcement of that.

789
00:44:00,479 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: You're really grateful that she feels comfortable enough to share

790
00:44:02,799 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 1: this with you, even if she doesn't present it in

791
00:44:05,319 --> 00:44:08,679
Speaker 1: the most optimal way. So that's number one, and then

792
00:44:08,759 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: number two is we'd like you to do something similar

793
00:44:10,879 --> 00:44:16,159
Speaker 1: with your husband. We would like you to say to him, listen,

794
00:44:16,319 --> 00:44:18,999
Speaker 1: I know that things seem better between us, and I

795
00:44:19,079 --> 00:44:22,199
Speaker 1: also know that you have been very careful not to

796
00:44:22,359 --> 00:44:27,399
Speaker 1: hurt me, But I've been thinking about this and the

797
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: not knowing hurts me more than whatever you might have

798
00:44:32,399 --> 00:44:36,159
Speaker 1: to say about how you're really feeling. And so I'd

799
00:44:36,199 --> 00:44:38,959
Speaker 1: like us to be able to have a conversation where

800
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:43,519
Speaker 1: I can really understand much more specifically what was going

801
00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: on might still be going on. And we want to

802
00:44:46,479 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: give you some buckets that might help. Because he tends

803
00:44:49,839 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 1: to kind of vague out right, you can say, how

804
00:44:53,399 --> 00:44:56,159
Speaker 1: are you feeling about the ways that we communicate with

805
00:44:56,199 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: each other? How are you feeling about the closeness between us,

806
00:44:59,519 --> 00:45:01,119
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about the ways we have fun

807
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: with each other? How are you feeling about things that

808
00:45:04,359 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: go on with our families? How are you feeling about

809
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:09,999
Speaker 1: the way we handle our jobs and the way we

810
00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: handle things around the house.

811
00:45:11,679 --> 00:45:13,079
Speaker 3: How are you feeling about our roommates.

812
00:45:13,959 --> 00:45:16,959
Speaker 1: How are you feeling about things that we might do

813
00:45:16,999 --> 00:45:19,999
Speaker 1: in the future, like have children. How are you feeling

814
00:45:20,039 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: about our sex life? How are you feeling about yourself?

815
00:45:23,439 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 1: How are things going with you? And so when he

816
00:45:25,919 --> 00:45:28,959
Speaker 1: says something very vague in the answer to these questions,

817
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: you follow up with, tell me more, just those three words,

818
00:45:34,119 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: tell me more. I want to understand better, or what

819
00:45:36,879 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Or what specifically? Can you

820
00:45:40,879 --> 00:45:46,559
Speaker 1: give me an example and keep reassuring him during the conversation.

821
00:45:46,799 --> 00:45:48,679
Speaker 1: This is so helpful for me. I know you don't

822
00:45:48,679 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: want to hurt me, and things that you might say

823
00:45:50,479 --> 00:45:53,159
Speaker 1: might be hard for me to hear, but they're not

824
00:45:53,279 --> 00:45:55,199
Speaker 1: as hard as not having this conversation.

825
00:45:56,559 --> 00:46:01,479
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, I mean that definitely feels like an easier

826
00:46:01,559 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 4: proposition for the relationship that has already in some ways ended,

827
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:09,919
Speaker 4: and scarier for the one that's ongoing.

828
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, But I think it's going to

829
00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:17,839
Speaker 1: be really good for you either way. No matter what

830
00:46:17,919 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 1: happened in either of these conversations. You didn't get this

831
00:46:20,839 --> 00:46:24,679
Speaker 1: growing up and you're not getting it in any of

832
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:26,959
Speaker 1: your other relationships. It sounds like or any of the

833
00:46:26,959 --> 00:46:28,079
Speaker 1: ones you've mentioned today.

834
00:46:28,319 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: You were having your turn on the headlights because you're

835
00:46:30,359 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 3: navigating in the dark, and this will give you light

836
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:38,639
Speaker 3: and you'll at least know what you need to navigate around. Okay, Wendy,

837
00:46:38,879 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 3: we know this is going to be scary, but we

838
00:46:40,879 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 3: also really know that you can do it.

839
00:46:44,399 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you very much.

840
00:46:53,399 --> 00:46:55,479
Speaker 3: You know, Wendy's story just reminds me that if you

841
00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:58,719
Speaker 3: learn something about yourself that you're doing in one relationship

842
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,679
Speaker 3: in your life, check if you're doing it in any

843
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:02,039
Speaker 3: of the others, because you probably are.

844
00:47:02,599 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's why I think this is going to

845
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 1: be really effective for her is that it's opening up

846
00:47:06,839 --> 00:47:09,959
Speaker 1: this possibility for her about how to handle reps and repair.

847
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 1: There's so many people out there like Wendy who grew

848
00:47:12,919 --> 00:47:16,519
Speaker 1: up in houses where they did not get good models

849
00:47:16,559 --> 00:47:19,599
Speaker 1: of what it means to resolve conflict, and that's what

850
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: we're really trying to help her with here.

851
00:47:21,479 --> 00:47:23,599
Speaker 3: IM really curious to see how she does.

852
00:47:29,759 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

853
00:47:32,919 --> 00:47:34,639
Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

854
00:47:46,159 --> 00:47:48,119
Speaker 3: So we heard from Wendy, and we gave her a

855
00:47:48,559 --> 00:47:52,599
Speaker 3: dual task of speaking up about the relationship and processing

856
00:47:52,599 --> 00:47:55,079
Speaker 3: something with someone, maybe for the first time in her life,

857
00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 3: both with her friend and with her husband. And I

858
00:47:58,399 --> 00:48:01,999
Speaker 3: think those were important conversations for her to have. Let's

859
00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:03,079
Speaker 3: hear if she had.

860
00:48:02,879 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 7: Them, Lauren Guy, thank you for your time and advice.

861
00:48:06,999 --> 00:48:11,399
Speaker 7: I was able to talk to on the phone. I

862
00:48:11,519 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 7: was really surprised with how receptive she was to speak

863
00:48:15,879 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 7: with me, and she was really willing to engage and

864
00:48:22,319 --> 00:48:26,679
Speaker 7: discuss her feelings about things. It was a difficult conversation

865
00:48:26,839 --> 00:48:32,079
Speaker 7: for me to initiate, but it really wasn't hard once

866
00:48:32,359 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 7: I heard her voice again and she heard mine for

867
00:48:35,879 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 7: us to talk and be open with each other. I

868
00:48:38,759 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 7: heard some things that were difficult to hear, but I

869
00:48:41,799 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 7: felt incredibly capable both during the conversation and afterwards to

870
00:48:46,879 --> 00:48:50,799
Speaker 7: have ongoing conversations with her and for us to decide

871
00:48:50,879 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 7: together what the nature of our friendship might be in

872
00:48:53,959 --> 00:48:58,999
Speaker 7: the future. The conversation with my husband took a while

873
00:48:59,079 --> 00:49:02,159
Speaker 7: to actually complete. We danced around it for a while

874
00:49:02,399 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 7: and ultimately I got some more specific answers, But it

875
00:49:08,799 --> 00:49:12,919
Speaker 7: feels like something we'll have to repeat multiple times before

876
00:49:12,959 --> 00:49:17,639
Speaker 7: we really communicate well together. That said, I'm not afraid

877
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 7: of initiating that conversation again, and I feel a lot

878
00:49:22,999 --> 00:49:27,479
Speaker 7: less afraid of what's being left unsaid by probing a

879
00:49:27,479 --> 00:49:31,519
Speaker 7: little bit more and just listening to one another.

880
00:49:36,519 --> 00:49:39,519
Speaker 1: The thing about having conversations like this for the very

881
00:49:39,599 --> 00:49:43,199
Speaker 1: first time is that it really depends on who you're

882
00:49:43,279 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 1: having them with, because it sounds like maybe Liza wasn't

883
00:49:48,479 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: able earlier to be more direct about how she was feeling,

884
00:49:51,799 --> 00:49:54,679
Speaker 1: but she was incredibly receptive, and that was the first

885
00:49:54,679 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: thing that Wendy said. She was receptive, She wanted to

886
00:49:57,759 --> 00:50:02,679
Speaker 1: have the conversation, She participated in the conversation, and they

887
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,519
Speaker 1: were both really willing to be open with each other.

888
00:50:06,039 --> 00:50:08,639
Speaker 1: I think the problem with the conversation with her husband

889
00:50:08,839 --> 00:50:12,999
Speaker 1: is that he is not receptive, so she has no

890
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:15,679
Speaker 1: practice doing this. She has never in her life had

891
00:50:15,799 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: practice having a conversation with somebody about that relationship. So

892
00:50:20,759 --> 00:50:23,199
Speaker 1: she may have been vulnerable in other ways, but it

893
00:50:23,279 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: wasn't about what's going on between you and me right now.

894
00:50:27,479 --> 00:50:30,559
Speaker 1: That is a conversation she's never had. Liza was open

895
00:50:30,599 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: to that. Her husband, we suspected from our earlier conversation

896
00:50:33,519 --> 00:50:36,039
Speaker 1: was probably not going to be very open to that.

897
00:50:36,799 --> 00:50:40,119
Speaker 1: And so I think that just by virtue of her

898
00:50:40,479 --> 00:50:43,639
Speaker 1: coming to him and saying, I want to talk about this,

899
00:50:44,439 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: that it will take some time, but that she's opened

900
00:50:47,359 --> 00:50:51,119
Speaker 1: a door there, just a little bit that had been

901
00:50:51,359 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 1: slammed shut between them.

902
00:50:54,039 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 3: I'm grateful for Lisa because Liza gave her and us

903
00:50:59,439 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 3: the opening to say, you need to practice having these

904
00:51:01,879 --> 00:51:04,639
Speaker 3: conversations because really you need to have them with your husband.

905
00:51:04,639 --> 00:51:08,199
Speaker 3: That seemed much more urgent and important than with Liza.

906
00:51:08,199 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 3: I mean, Lisa's a friend, and I think that's important,

907
00:51:09,959 --> 00:51:11,999
Speaker 3: but there were issues going on with a husband that

908
00:51:12,119 --> 00:51:15,679
Speaker 3: really needed to be addressed. I'm hoping she continues this

909
00:51:15,799 --> 00:51:19,079
Speaker 3: dialogue with Liza. It will help her to then continue

910
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:22,159
Speaker 3: having the dialogue with her husband. If she can practice

911
00:51:22,159 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 3: on Liza, who's a better responder, she can then bring

912
00:51:25,359 --> 00:51:28,999
Speaker 3: that perhaps to conversations with her husband and over time

913
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:32,079
Speaker 3: get them to be more open with one another. Because

914
00:51:32,079 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 3: clearly that was sounded like it was a bit of

915
00:51:33,839 --> 00:51:34,439
Speaker 3: teeth pulling.

916
00:51:35,159 --> 00:51:37,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I hope that Liza not only models for her,

917
00:51:38,119 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 1: how can I have these conversations with my husband, but

918
00:51:40,959 --> 00:51:43,039
Speaker 1: I also hope that Liza can be a support for

919
00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 1: her and maybe encourage her to be more open with

920
00:51:47,999 --> 00:51:52,439
Speaker 1: her husband, to really give her the moral support, give

921
00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:55,199
Speaker 1: her the you know the things that friends can do

922
00:51:55,399 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: to kind of hold you up when you're doing something

923
00:51:57,999 --> 00:51:58,679
Speaker 1: very difficult.

924
00:51:58,759 --> 00:52:00,599
Speaker 3: Well, that would really be a nice switch to roo, right,

925
00:52:00,639 --> 00:52:04,119
Speaker 3: because their last fight was about relationships with husbands and

926
00:52:04,199 --> 00:52:07,679
Speaker 3: who's had problems, And the suspicion was that both did.

927
00:52:08,279 --> 00:52:12,559
Speaker 3: My measure of whether a conversation was successful, the minimum

928
00:52:12,639 --> 00:52:16,479
Speaker 3: bar really is do you feel an easing after the

929
00:52:16,519 --> 00:52:20,119
Speaker 3: conversation or do you feel an increase of tension? And

930
00:52:20,159 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 3: it sounds like in both those conversations there were somewhat

931
00:52:22,399 --> 00:52:24,839
Speaker 3: of an easy so they were both successful, even the

932
00:52:24,879 --> 00:52:27,639
Speaker 3: one with her husband, because she did sound like she

933
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 3: felt a little bit better. She said she's less afraid

934
00:52:29,919 --> 00:52:33,479
Speaker 3: of the unsaid things. So to me, that's an indication

935
00:52:33,559 --> 00:52:36,239
Speaker 3: it was perhaps as successful as a first effort might be.

936
00:52:37,119 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: That's something I really want people listening to this to

937
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: understand is that the opening conversation is the beginning of something.

938
00:52:45,599 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: It's setting the stage for something, it's planting the seeds,

939
00:52:48,879 --> 00:52:51,479
Speaker 1: and I like your way, guy of measuring the success

940
00:52:51,519 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 1: of a conversation, because I think in both instances these

941
00:52:55,439 --> 00:52:59,879
Speaker 1: conversations were a success.

942
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 3: Next week, a young man seeks our counsel on whether

943
00:53:04,279 --> 00:53:06,079
Speaker 3: to try to get his girlfriend.

944
00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:09,519
Speaker 8: Back absolutely lower and then just kills me because I

945
00:53:09,599 --> 00:53:14,519
Speaker 8: know the main problem, you know, was the drinking, and

946
00:53:14,559 --> 00:53:16,439
Speaker 8: you know I told I don't have to have a

947
00:53:16,519 --> 00:53:17,039
Speaker 8: drink again.

948
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,599
Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

949
00:53:20,839 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

950
00:53:23,279 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

951
00:53:26,919 --> 00:53:29,119
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

952
00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:32,599
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953
00:53:33,199 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

954
00:53:35,479 --> 00:53:40,599
Speaker 3: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

955
00:53:40,879 --> 00:53:44,479
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

956
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:48,679
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

957
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

958
00:53:52,319 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

959
00:53:56,479 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

960
00:53:58,999 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,