1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: In the past few weeks, college campuses across North America 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: have reached a boiling point. Protests against the war in 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 2: Gaza have spilled out over Columbia's Lawn where protesters have 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: set up tent encampments, to the University of Texas at 6 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: Austin Emory University, Emerson College, and the University of Minnesota, 7 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: where police have arrested protesters this week. Many of the protesters, 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: from students to faculty, are asking for an immediate ceasefire 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 2: in Gaza. Some protesters have threatened Jewish students or expressed 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: support for Hamas, which is designated as a terrorist organization 11 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 2: by the US. Across the country, one demand has been 12 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: repeated again and again, from Columbia's South Lawn to Yale's 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: Binicky Plaza to UC berkeley Sprowl Plaza. Disclose and divest. 14 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: Campus activists say that they want their universities to be 15 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 2: more transparent about where their school's endowment money is going 16 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 2: and for these institutions to exit a range of investments 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 2: that they say are tied to Israel and weapons that 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: fuel the war in Gaza. 19 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 3: We're asking for financial transparency because we don't even know 20 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 3: the extent to which the investments go. 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: That's student nor Shallaby, who we talked to on Columbia's 22 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: campus today. Not far from her, they're already bleachers set 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: up for the university's commencement ceremony. 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 3: In general, the plan would be not to leave until 25 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 3: they divest. So I guess if that means disrupting graduation, 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 3: then that's what's going to have to happen. 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Janet Lauren has covered higher education finance and endowments 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: for fifteen years. She says both disclosure and divestment are 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: more complicated than they look. 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: It's not really clear because colleges are famous for not 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: sharing what they're invested in. I would love to know 32 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: what they're invested in, Believe me, for fifteen years, I 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: would like I've been. 34 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: Trying today on the show what these calls to divest mean, 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 2: how colleges and universities invest their money, and why universities 36 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 2: are operationally and ideologically opposed to these efforts. I'm Sarah Holder. 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 2: This is the big take from Bloomberg News. 38 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: So we're starting to see encampments pop up at campuses 39 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 1: across the country. Starting with Columbia, Harvard, Yale, Texas, University 40 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: of California, University of Texas at Austin. And what these 41 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: colleges have in common is the students are asking, they're 42 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: demanding for changes to the endowments. And an endowment is 43 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: money that is stemmed from donations and those donations are 44 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: invested and every year, for example, Harvard will give the 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: school about two billion dollars in investment returns, and that 46 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: is what makes university run. 47 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: And the way these gifts are invested is what campus 48 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: protesters have their eye on changing. Jenet says, students have 49 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: used publicly available data to find out what investments might 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: have ties to the current conflict, and they've identified investments 51 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: they want their schools to divest from. 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: There is some public information available in securities filings, for example, 53 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: they're called thirteen F filings, and they give a snapshot 54 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: of public stocks that college endowment told at this particular 55 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: moment of time. And as they look in, they see 56 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: they're in mutual funds, index funds ETFs, and they see 57 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: for that filing date what colleges hold, and they see 58 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: stocks like Amazon, or they see stocks like Google. They 59 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: would like the colleges to divest themselves of those funds 60 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: invested in those individual stocks. Why because Amazon may have 61 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: a contract with their cloud computing service. Google may have contracts, 62 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: and what their concern is is that they're tied to 63 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 1: the war between Hamas and Israel. 64 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: But Janet notes that what students can see in these 65 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: filings is just a fraction of a much larger investment picture. 66 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: Schools. You know, they are some of the most sophisticated 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: investment managers you know in the world. Instead of investing 68 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: in US stocks and bonds which are easily sold, their 69 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: asset allocations include private equity, which are typically investments made 70 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: in funds that are held for ten years or so 71 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: hedge funds where you know, you give your money to 72 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: a manager and they may be buying and selling an equity, 73 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: and they may be holding it for as little as 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: five minutes, and they're trusting their money to outside people 75 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: to manage it. They don't have a direct control over 76 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: how those managers are doing, and they enter contracts with 77 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: companies and there's confidentiality and also competitive advantage. 78 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 2: Well, how much of these schools money is kinggled up 79 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: in these companies and industries specifically. 80 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: Well, if you're looking at again these filings called thirteen DEFs, 81 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about say in a forty billion dollar endowment, 82 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: it might be a couple of million dollars, maybe a 83 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: little bit more. 84 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: That amount of money can seem small when you're talking 85 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 2: about billions in endowments. According to reporting by Janet and 86 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 2: her colleagues, almost seven hundred institutions hold about eight hundred 87 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: and forty billion dollars in endowment assets. 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: So it's a very small share. 89 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 2: And so what would it look like for these colleges 90 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 2: and universities to start a divestment process. How would they 91 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: begin to do that? 92 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's easier to understand when they were 93 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: just held in US stocks, that would be a pretty 94 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: simple decision of selling a stock. We don't really know 95 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: what the holdings are in these endowments, Unlike when they 96 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: were invested in plain old vanilla stocks and bonds thirty 97 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,359 Speaker 1: forty years ago, it was easy to see what they had. So, 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: for example, in South Africa, when students were protesting divestment, 99 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: the way colleges invested their money was very different. They 100 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: held US stocks, That's how they invested stocks and bonds 101 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: and when students were protesting. Michigan State University was actually 102 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: the first school, the first large university to say we 103 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: are going to sell our shares of US companies that 104 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: are doing business in South Africa, buy and sell. 105 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: So you're saying it's not so easy to change the 106 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: way this money is invested. 107 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: It's complicated. And I don't think colleges see their endowments 108 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: as a means of social change. They see it as 109 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: a way of paying their bills and trying to pay 110 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: for increased financial aid. An endowment has nothing to do 111 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 1: with tuition, and I think it's you know, the way 112 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 1: universities are financed might be confusing. For example, at Harvard, 113 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: the endowment funds thirty seven percent of their entire operating budget, 114 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: and that is what makes university run. And a lot 115 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: of financial lead, for example, comes from endowment investing. So 116 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: maybe a misconception that tuition payments that fund how the 117 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: operation of the school. Tuition payments do not fund the endowment, 118 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: its gifts and investment returns. 119 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: And you're saying that universities don't see these funds as 120 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: agents for social change. 121 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: No, not at all. 122 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: Could that change? 123 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. 124 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: And when it comes to specifically targeting investments that touch Israel, 125 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: a movement known as boycott, divestment, and sanctions. Colleges and 126 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: universities have long rejected these efforts as anti Semitic because 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: they call into question the legitimacy of the Jewish state. 128 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: There are also laws on the books in more than 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: half of US states which discouraged this type of action. 130 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: Largely they're viewed is anti Israel ways to protest Israel. 131 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: So keep that in mind that there's no support for this. 132 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: But there have been moments in the past where other 133 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: divestment movements on college campuses have been extraordinarily successful. In 134 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties, protesters called on universities to divest from 135 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: companies that did business and see Africa in protests of 136 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 2: the country's policy of apartheid on a lot of canvases. 137 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: The pressure worked, but this time Janet says there's little appetite. 138 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: This month, Harvard, which has the largest US endowment, made 139 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: clear that it opposes calls for a policy of boycotting 140 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 2: Israel and its academic institutions, and Brown refused to acknowledge 141 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: divestment demands. During an eight day student led hunger strike. 142 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: When we come back, we go to one university in 143 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 2: California to see how the effort has expanded there. We're back. 144 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: Bloomberg reporter Eli Yahou Camisher went to the UC Berkeley's 145 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 2: protest site to see how the protests there have unfolded 146 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: and what could come next. 147 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 4: Students in Berkeley. They have four main demands. One of 148 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 4: them is to divest from the UC's investment fund, which 149 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 4: is about one hundred and sixteen nine billion dollars investment fund, 150 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 4: from assets that are tied to Israel. Many assets are 151 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 4: kind of index funds that might invest in companies like 152 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 4: Boeing or Airbnb that they say have kind of a 153 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 4: relationship to arms manufacturing and or work within Israel or 154 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: Israeli settlements. They want to divest from companies like Boeing 155 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 4: or Lockheed Martin or raytheon that might involved in arms 156 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 4: manufacturing and might have ties to Israel, but the UC 157 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 4: system doesn't have any direct holdings in those companies. The 158 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 4: U see investment fund, So what they've targeted are black Rock, 159 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 4: which holds most every public equity in the world essentially, 160 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 4: and then they've also looked at some other index funds 161 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 4: like an SMP five hundred fund that holds companies like Boeing. 162 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,199 Speaker 2: Can you tell us about the BDS movement. 163 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 4: So in the UC system, the boycott investment sanctions movement 164 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 4: has been very active for over two decades, I would say, 165 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 4: and they have a lot of success in getting student 166 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 4: bodies to vote in favor of divesting, but that really 167 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 4: hasn't moved any of the UC system wide investment, which 168 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 4: is controlled by a board of regents that is majority 169 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 4: appointed by the California governor. And so even though like 170 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,359 Speaker 4: student bodies at the majority of the UC's ten campuses 171 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 4: have all voted in favor of divesting multiple times over 172 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 4: the past decade, it hasn't been any indication that the 173 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 4: UC regents are taking up their demands. And so the 174 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 4: calls that we're seeing on the UC system campus now 175 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 4: are really the same calls for devestment that we've been 176 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 4: seeing for many years now that have been at the 177 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 4: center of campus you know, really rock as campus divisions, 178 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 4: and there isn't an indication that the UC system is 179 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: changing it's policy. A spokesman for UC Berkeley told me 180 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 4: that they have no plans to change any of their 181 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 4: investment policies. But what is new now is that the 182 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 4: devestment demands are being tied to an encampment that is 183 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 4: on the campus, and they're saying we are not going 184 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 4: to leave sprou Plaza, which is a center for campus life, 185 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 4: until their demands are met. There's definitely a new intensity 186 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,679 Speaker 4: to the demand and there's more tension on it, and 187 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 4: I think it is gaining more attension amongst students on campus, 188 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 4: but not from the administrators or the governing board of 189 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 4: the UC system. 190 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 2: There's also an ideological opposition to these movements on the 191 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: part of university leaders and lawmakers. Why is divesting from 192 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: Israel so fraud? 193 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 4: That's been at the center of the devestment debate for decades. 194 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 4: I think people that oppose divesting from Israel see it 195 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 4: as singling out to one Jewish majority country, and some 196 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 4: within the devestment movement I think expressed that there Israel 197 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: doesn't have a right to exist, And I think there's 198 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 4: that division between criticizing Israel, Israel's policy and government, and 199 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 4: then criticizing the country's existence. So people see that second part, 200 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 4: I think as an anti Semitic They point to, like, 201 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 4: you know, why aren't there boycott a boycott campaign against 202 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 4: Russia or Saudi Arabia, and they think Israel shouldn't be 203 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 4: kind of singled up. I think the opponents of bds 204 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 4: would say this is a political action and that it's 205 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 4: non violent, and that Palestinians, you know, have and Palestinians 206 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 4: and their supporters should be able to take nonviolent protests 207 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 4: the campuses and they should be listened to. 208 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: So, Ellie, what are you watching for next? 209 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: I think what I'm looking to next is, you know, 210 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 4: there's May fourteenth through sixteenth, there's going to be a 211 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 4: meeting of the UC regents, the governing board, and how 212 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 4: are they going to respond to what's happening in the campus. 213 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 4: Are they going to indicate some sort of you know, 214 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 4: increasing kind of inclination to hear these students on these 215 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 4: issues they have not before, or how are they going 216 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 4: to respond? So that'll be interesting to watch next month. 217 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Big Take podcast from Bloomberg News. 218 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Holder. This episode was produced by Thomas lu, 219 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: Alex Sugiura, Julia Press, and Jessica Beck. It was edited 220 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 2: by Caitlin Kenney and Pratish Narayanan, who was mixed by 221 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: Veronica Rodriguez and fact Check by Adrianna Tapia. Naomi Shaven 222 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: is our senior producer. Our senior editor is Elizabeth Ponso. 223 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,479 Speaker 2: Nicole biemsterbor is our executive producer. Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's 224 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: head of podcasts. Please subscribe and review The Big Take 225 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps new listeners find 226 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.