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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And former Vice President Dick Cheney has

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Speaker 1: passed away at the age of eighty four.

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Speaker 2: We have such a great chill for you today.

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Speaker 1: Treason Substack editor Miles Taylor stops by to talk about

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Speaker 1: Trump's escalating.

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Speaker 2: War in Africa.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to Wikipedia's Jimmy Wales about his new book,

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Speaker 1: The Seven Rules of Trust, a blueprint for building things

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Speaker 1: that last.

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Speaker 2: But first the news.

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Speaker 3: It is died thirty PM and we have already had

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Speaker 3: many of the major races called. We're basically the only

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Speaker 3: one we're waiting God is California's redistricting proposition. And you're

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Speaker 3: not gonna be awake with that gets called. So we're

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Speaker 3: recording right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: For Jesse, I was like, I think we can be

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Speaker 1: we can record now. He was like, they haven't called

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Speaker 1: the mayoral. I'm like, we know what's going to happen.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So we're going to start with the the interesting

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Speaker 3: small races. PA voted to keep their Supreme Court, very

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Speaker 3: very important thing.

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Speaker 1: So yes, Pennsylvania had three Supreme Court judges billionaires got

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Speaker 1: very excited. They were they're these uh, there are these

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Speaker 1: races where you say it like do you want to

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Speaker 1: keep the judges or do you want to kick them out?

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Speaker 1: And the billionaires wanted them kicked out for obvious reason.

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Speaker 1: This reasons is Pennsylvania Supreme Court. But the people said no,

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Speaker 1: they want to keep them. They all got kept. So

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Speaker 1: that was a big win for a small race. Big

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Speaker 1: win for that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, another small race, big win. No redistrict to get

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Speaker 3: in Kansas.

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Speaker 1: Yes, in Kansas, they can't do it. What's the matter

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Speaker 1: with Kansas not that they cannot redistrict and that's good news.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think after Brownback running them into the ground

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Speaker 3: for years, they've grown a little distrustful.

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Speaker 1: Having a really terrible Republican governor has really served the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party of Kansas, and they have a Democratic governor

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Speaker 1: now too. I mean, like with Trump, you know that

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Speaker 1: you can push it too far.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So then we moved to our city, which is

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Speaker 3: that Zora and Mamdani has defeated Andrew Cuomo in the

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Speaker 3: mayoral race.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Zoran has has continued that you were chockingly the

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Speaker 1: person who was pulling up twenty four points or some

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Speaker 1: I mean every poll was like up ten of twenty.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the lowest I saw was fourteen points.

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Speaker 3: There were some very bad jug polls at Lasidtel, which

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Speaker 3: has proved to all night now, have been very very off,

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Speaker 3: which is a pattern they often have.

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Speaker 1: What the really interesting Mondamie numbers are, if you are

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Speaker 1: under forty five, you support him, and if you're under thirty,

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Speaker 1: you really support him. So here's I think the sleeper

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Speaker 1: story of this race. And you saw it also with

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Speaker 1: Abigail Spamberger the National Security let's just say what it is,

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Speaker 1: the CIA mom. Young people liked all those candidates, So

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got a candidate like I know you're

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Speaker 1: rolling your eyes at me, but you have a candidate

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Speaker 1: like Mondami Mondami, who's like a very exciting candidate for

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Speaker 1: young people because he's addressing a lot of things they want.

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Speaker 1: But you have candidates like Spamburger, who is a much

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Speaker 1: more centrist candidate CIA in the sort of in a

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Speaker 1: much more centrist vein. She's also getting young people excited,

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Speaker 1: which means probably two important things. One is that young

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Speaker 1: people are extremely mad and they should be extremely mad.

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Speaker 1: And two is that there is a real fury. Look,

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Speaker 1: there's fury. People are mad. And the other thing, which

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Speaker 1: I think is another sort of underreported this story, is

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Speaker 1: that people continue to be very mad at the Democratic establishment,

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Speaker 1: but still much matter at Trump. So like you may

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Speaker 1: be mad at Chuck Schumer, there's certainly a place for that,

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Speaker 1: but you're still ten twenty thirty points matter at Trump,

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Speaker 1: and that's real and important to realize.

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Speaker 2: So I would say all of these things are important now.

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Speaker 1: As for me, an angry feminist who has seen all

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Speaker 1: women candidates just shit on continuously, and who got to

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Speaker 1: write that piece for The Times about Mikey Cheryl when

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Speaker 1: I went to New Jersey, and who then found a

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Speaker 1: bunch of men on the Internet talking about what an

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Speaker 1: idiot I was and how it wasn't she wasn't electable,

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Speaker 1: It was just the wrong They could just find the

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Speaker 1: right woman, you know, the right woman to them is

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Speaker 1: a man. Mikey Cheryl's race that caused so much anxiety,

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Speaker 1: that was tightening in all the polls was called decision

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Speaker 1: desk called it at eight thirteen pm.

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Speaker 3: Okay, which, for those those who don't know this, Dow

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Speaker 3: Jersey polls close at eight pm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, decision made eight thirteen pm eest. It did them

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Speaker 1: thirteen minutes to know that Mikey Cher was going to win.

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Speaker 1: And so I give the heartiest fuck you to all

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Speaker 1: of the people, including and now we're going to get

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Speaker 1: real gossipy here, including the national political reporter who was

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Speaker 1: with me at that Mikey speech saying, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's just not that good a candidate, and you know

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Speaker 1: Chittarelli is really catching fire. I give her the heartiest

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Speaker 1: fuck you because she is a woman and she should Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the point is, misogyny is everywhere, and we have to

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Speaker 1: be back misogyny and racism. But I can speak very

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Speaker 1: well on misogyny. It's everywhere and we have to fight it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, let's move to what I could speak well on,

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Speaker 3: which is being problematic. So the Virginia AG's race. J Jones,

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Speaker 3: the Democrat has one. Now for those who don't know this,

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Speaker 3: because we've only mentioned this a little of the podcast,

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Speaker 3: he said, some problematic text. Now, when we say problematic texts,

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Speaker 3: some might be wishing for the death of someone. And

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Speaker 3: so what I think is where the interesting emerging stories

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Speaker 3: of night that is a lot of people are moving

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Speaker 3: into the like these gotcha. Things of the past are

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Speaker 3: becoming less relevant with like Platner still staying successful and

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Speaker 3: him winning. This is a real test of how our

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Speaker 3: politics are changing.

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Speaker 5: What are you seeing?

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Speaker 2: This guy had a bunch of text messages.

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Speaker 1: The text messages were released around the time the GOP

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Speaker 1: Nazi chat, the first Nazi chat, not the GOP second, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: was released around that time. These text messages came out too,

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Speaker 1: and they were this guy had text messaged someone and

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Speaker 1: Sidiot wanted this person to die and wanted them and

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Speaker 1: it was and they were disgusting.

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Speaker 2: They were disgusting text messages.

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Speaker 1: Now they weren't leaders of the party, right, or they

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Speaker 1: weren't not leaders, but they weren't organizers of the party.

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Speaker 1: Musing about how they had a Hitler, you know that

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Speaker 1: how Hitler had some good ideas, but they were bad

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Speaker 1: and they were gross, and they were violent and disgusting,

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Speaker 1: and they were also leaked at a very convenient time.

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Speaker 1: So good, he's going to win. And he shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: written those text messages. And it's totally gross, but you know,

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Speaker 1: the Republican would do something much worse. So but that said,

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Speaker 1: I you know, I think people shouldn't write text messages

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Speaker 1: like that, and that's why I am the most. All

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Speaker 1: my kids are mad at me, because I'm like, anything

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Speaker 1: you write in a text message, should you know, can

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Speaker 1: haunt you for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 5: The real world is showing that people hate Donald Trump

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Speaker 5: enough to go I don't care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Mikey, Cheryl, Abigail Spamberger, just a lot of

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Speaker 1: overperforming every which way. We'll see what happens with the

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Speaker 1: deam redistricting in California, but my guess is that will

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Speaker 1: go through and we're going to see Donald Trump. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, let me just point out, we're going

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Speaker 1: to see Donald Trump do a lot of crazy anti

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Speaker 1: democratic things now because this because now he sees the

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Speaker 1: writing on the wall, and he is going to try

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Speaker 1: to do every fucking thing he can to subvert our elections.

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Speaker 1: And we are going to just have to be so

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Speaker 1: vigilant in the courts, in the peaceful pushback in the streets,

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Speaker 1: because you know, all that Donald Trump wants is to

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Speaker 1: get away with the kind of grift he's doing, and

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Speaker 1: the American people don't want to let him get away

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Speaker 1: with it, and so he is going to attack our

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Speaker 1: institutions in ways I don't think any of us see

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Speaker 1: coming Somali.

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Speaker 3: I think that the iceberg is next week ish. Where

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Speaker 3: with this government shut down, the pain that elected officials

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Speaker 3: are going to feel from constituents is really really going

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Speaker 3: to get ugly. Because these next two stories are pretty gruesome.

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Speaker 3: Trump is saying that SNAP will only get paid after

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Speaker 3: a shutdown, despite numerous lawsuits that say otherwise. What do

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Speaker 3: you feel in here?

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Speaker 1: I want to point out that when we were looking

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Speaker 1: over these news stories.

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Speaker 2: Each one is worse than the one before.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there is not a single one where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: at least the puppies are being saved.

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Speaker 5: I like to call this the Russian doll of Hell

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Speaker 5: I make for you right exactly.

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Speaker 1: I want to point this out. So two federal courts

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Speaker 1: ruled last week that the White House must pay at

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Speaker 1: least partial SNAP. So this isn't two different courts, so

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Speaker 1: he is going against what courts are ruling. The money

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Speaker 1: is there, it's for forty two million Americans. Of those

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Speaker 1: forty two million Americans, forty percent are children. I wrote

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Speaker 1: about this in my piece in The Times about Trump's

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Speaker 1: Gatspeed party that he had at his.

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Speaker 2: Club this weekend. Mara a Lago.

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Speaker 1: The initiation fee for mar A Lago, according to the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, is a million dollars. I just want

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Speaker 1: you to understand what we're talking about here. Forty two

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Speaker 1: million people, a little less than half children.

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Speaker 2: Majority. If they're not children, they're adults over the age

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Speaker 2: of sixty. So we're not feeding children and elderly people

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Speaker 2: because Donald Trump doesn't want to.

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Speaker 1: Instead of being honest, because why would he, he truths

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Speaker 1: on truth social snap benefits which increase by billions and

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Speaker 1: millions of dollars manyfold explanation point right, we wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: money feeding children. That money should go to tax benefits

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Speaker 1: for very wealthy people or crypto.

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Speaker 3: Maybe Argentina for no good reasons aside from Scottpiston spreads

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Speaker 3: of investments.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, the point is a press conference today, which is Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: You'll be listening to this on Wednesday. White House Press Secretary,

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Speaker 1: or as I like to think of her, she's got

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Speaker 1: a sort of North Korean edge to her.

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Speaker 2: Carolyn Lebott said, do.

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Speaker 5: You think she's just in the kay pop?

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Speaker 2: Yes, she's just in the capop.

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Speaker 5: That's what you met by that set.

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Speaker 1: The administration is fully complying with the court order, which

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Speaker 1: they are not, by the way, but the recipients need

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Speaker 1: to understand that it will take time to receive money.

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Speaker 1: The president does not want to have to tap into

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Speaker 1: this fund in the future. I mean, there are so

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Speaker 1: many morally atrocious things about this story, but part of

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Speaker 1: it is also like this was made possible by the

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Speaker 1: unitary Executives theory, by the thinking that Donald Trump is

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Speaker 1: a monarchical figure. You know, there is no Congress, there

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Speaker 1: is no Senate, there is no judiciary, there is only Trump.

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Speaker 1: Trump is a president. Trump is a monarch. Trump has

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Speaker 1: decided that these people should can get their SNAP benefits

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Speaker 1: because he feels like it. In this case, however, they're

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Speaker 1: not going to get his HAVE benefits because he does

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Speaker 1: not feel like it. And also, I think a reality

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Speaker 1: check here is that despite the fact that Trump said

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Speaker 1: SNAP spending went up during Biden's administration, it actually went

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Speaker 1: up during Trump's first administration. Shockingly, my man is doing

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Speaker 1: the thing as he's accusing the Democrats of doing once again.

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Speaker 3: So in other shut down chaos, Sean Duffy are very

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Speaker 3: competent reality TV star turned government official. He says that

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Speaker 3: we can see mass chaos next week if shutdown doesn't

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Speaker 3: end and that airspace may be closed in parts of

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Speaker 3: the country.

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Speaker 2: I need to stop and talk about Sean Deffy. We

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Speaker 2: need an aside for a minute.

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Speaker 1: This is a lesser known news story, the kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff that we here at Fast Politics make sure to

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Speaker 1: bring to our listeners because we have that kind of

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Speaker 1: eagle eye.

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Speaker 5: Steel trap beverery for stupid Halso known.

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Speaker 1: As philosopher, poet, Kim Kardashian, legal scholar.

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Speaker 5: It's true.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I think of her as America's Supreme Court justice.

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Speaker 2: She is the RBG for the rest of us. Just kidding.

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Speaker 1: She had said that she did not think the moon

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Speaker 1: landing was real, one of her many hottest takes. And

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Speaker 1: Sean Duffy, who has such a commitment to the truth

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Speaker 1: that he did in fact weigh in and say that

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Speaker 1: we have landed on the Moon and that is made

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Speaker 1: of cheese and is delicious. Now, look, you know it's important.

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Speaker 1: In an administration filled with just the stupidest, most corrupt,

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Speaker 1: most appalling people, it's nice to see Sean Duffy at least,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, occasionally, like you'll remember he was

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Speaker 1: caught talking about it. I would never let his wife fly

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Speaker 1: through New York. Like my man is a wife guy.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of people in that administration who

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Speaker 1: are not wife guys. We here at Fast Politics have

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for wife guys. So again that's

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Speaker 1: number one. And then also, you know, he says it's

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Speaker 1: going to shut it down if he thinks it's dangerous, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I think there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in that administration who would not shut stuff down

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Speaker 1: if it got dangerous.

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Speaker 3: Right, I'm feeling bad as a wife guy that I

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Speaker 3: my wife through Dower recently.

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Speaker 2: My husband is like Newark so cheap.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, so you can get one of the

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Speaker 3: worst burgers of all time at the CBGB cafe.

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Speaker 1: This is where your problems starts. Now, now we have

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Speaker 1: a story that you have to talk about because this.

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Speaker 5: Is your Yeah, this is my juristic. Shed so up.

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Speaker 3: So one of the nightmare scenarios I think that we've

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Speaker 3: all worried about since shows like veep in Secession is

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Speaker 3: the idea of bomb threats at pulling places and things

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Speaker 3: like this. Now, this has happened in the past, but

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Speaker 3: today in New Jersey, particularly in the counties I grew

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Speaker 3: up in, we're seeing widespread bomb threats at democratic pulling locations,

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Speaker 3: trying to depress the vote, because what we see in

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Speaker 3: all analysises is that there's been many, many, many more

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Speaker 3: Democrats voting in early voting in New Jersey for governor

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Speaker 3: than Republicans. And we have a guy who likes to

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Speaker 3: portray himself as a bit of a mob attitude, Tony Soprano,

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Speaker 3: guy running against Congresswoman Mikey Cheryl, who we've had many

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Speaker 3: times on the podcast. Yes, so we're seeing chaos and

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Speaker 3: seue here because these people have no bounds to their

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Speaker 3: dignity and respect for the norms of this country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not arguing.

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Speaker 1: So we got law enforcement officers responding to polling places.

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Speaker 1: You know, these are threats, but law enforcement responded to

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Speaker 1: threats that were received by email involving polling places in Bergen, Essex, Mercer, Middlesex,

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Speaker 1: Mammoth Ocean, and Passaic and you know, luckily it's New

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Speaker 1: Jersey and they have a lot of people out there

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Speaker 1: and the police are investigating multiple phishing emails, fake claims

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Speaker 1: of bomb threats. It's just this is the new normal

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Speaker 1: that we live in. And that's because we have a

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Speaker 1: man who is president who has encouraged his supporters to

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Speaker 1: do stuff like this, who has said that he would

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Speaker 1: like to see more violence. You know who has who

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Speaker 1: has in a million different ways supported political violence.

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Speaker 2: And it's you know, it's real dark. It's not how.

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Speaker 1: Any of us want to live. We just have to

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Speaker 1: take care of each other. But voting is continued on safely.

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Speaker 1: There hasn't been anything, and you know, every day that

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Speaker 1: we have nothing terrible happen is a really good day.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it related tos. The federal election security cutbacks are

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Speaker 3: for seeing local officials to go out of the loan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, a lot of these little municipalities need money to

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Speaker 1: secure their elections, to secure their Wi Fi, to secure

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Speaker 1: their their reporting, to make sure you know, the reason

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Speaker 1: why our elections are safe is because they're decentralized. But

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Speaker 1: the reason why they're expensive is because they're decentralized. And

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Speaker 1: Trump administration has cut off funding to that because, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like cancer research, it seems like a waste of money.

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Speaker 1: Better to spend that money on tax cuts for very

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Speaker 1: wealthy people, crypto scams and giant lavish ballrooms.

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Speaker 5: Correct, that sounds like the brand.

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Speaker 1: Miles Taylor is a former national security official and the

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Speaker 1: author of the substack Treason. Welcome back, too, Fastballut it's

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Speaker 1: Miles Taylor.

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Speaker 6: Oh, it's so good to be here, my friend. I

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Speaker 6: always love talking to you. I wish I could just

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Speaker 6: have you in my ear all day long, you know,

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Speaker 6: just fucking me up when things get shitty and calling

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Speaker 6: me out of if I'm not moving fast enough on something.

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Speaker 2: No, no, you know, I am known to be very smushy.

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Speaker 1: It's not like I go on Fox News to announce

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Speaker 1: military actions like our leader in chief. I am again

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Speaker 1: without words about Trump tells military, this is a I

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Speaker 1: want to read you a headline from the BBC. Like

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Speaker 1: imagine how you're at the BBC and you see this

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Speaker 1: huge country that is so fucked and you have to

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Speaker 1: come up with headlines. I mean, just like, okay, So

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Speaker 1: here it is. Trump tells military to prepare for quote

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Speaker 1: unquote action against Islamist militants in Nigeria. He tells them

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Speaker 1: on Fox News, as one does.

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Speaker 6: I'll say one thing at the top end, which is,

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Speaker 6: if there is any place that screams quagmire, it would

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Speaker 6: be going into Nigeria and starting a war. You know,

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Speaker 6: and so many of the president's allies in the MAGA

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Speaker 6: movement who allegedly voted for him to stop the Forever Wars.

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Speaker 2: I remember that that was season one.

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Speaker 6: They should be mortified by the prospect that we might

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Speaker 6: get entangled in a spiraling conflict in Nigeria. Now, what

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Speaker 6: you can also say is it's reasonable and possible for

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Speaker 6: the United States to go after terrorists if they are

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Speaker 6: in Nigeria using over the horizon capabilities. I mean, look,

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Speaker 6: if there's an ISIS or al Qaeda cell in Nigeria

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Speaker 6: plotting against the United States, sure we have the ability

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Speaker 6: to go after them. But talking about going to war

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Speaker 6: in Nigeria, that's not a decision the president should make.

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Speaker 6: That's a decision Congress should make.

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Speaker 1: And also on Fox and Friend, Fox and Friends has

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Speaker 1: now become and this happened in Trump one point zero

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Speaker 1: two has become the sort of central propaganda organization. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of where he gets his messaging out, where

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Speaker 1: he talks to his people, where he talks to the army.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and also talk about a sensitive national security decision

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Speaker 6: and ruining the element of surprise. You know, that would

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Speaker 6: be like if George W. Bush had gone on the

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Speaker 6: view and said, you know, Tuesday at seven pm, the

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Speaker 6: missiles will start landing in Bagdad.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you don't go do that.

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Speaker 6: And you know, in a sense, this is as bad

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Speaker 6: or worse as Signal Gate. But this time the president

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Speaker 6: isn't even trying to protect these things on encrypted apps.

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Speaker 6: He's just going and telegraphing military action out there. But

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Speaker 6: again I would say, just like what we are seeing

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Speaker 6: in Venezuela. Yeah, this is one of those things where

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Speaker 6: as a conservative, I say, this is why the founder

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Speaker 6: said Congress makes the determination of whether we go to war,

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Speaker 6: because when that doesn't happen, we get entangled in extraordinarily

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Speaker 6: costly foreign conflicts. And Donald Trump, the peacemaker president, on

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Speaker 6: the path to get us into two new wars before

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Speaker 6: year's end.

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Speaker 1: So can you explain to me this schizophrenia? Because Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: like two weeks ago, he was trying to get a

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Speaker 1: Nobel prize. I feel like he didn't totally understand the

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Speaker 1: timeline of the Nobel Peace Prize. So he's like, it

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Speaker 1: comes out in a week, so let's try now, right,

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Speaker 1: And he had like a list, if he had this

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Speaker 1: list of all these wars he had ended and just

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Speaker 1: saying This list alienated both India and Pakistan because they

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Speaker 1: were like, actually, no, they were a list of all

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Speaker 1: these wars he had ended. So explain to me how

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Speaker 1: you have ending wars but also which are not aren't

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Speaker 1: necessarily true but whatever? Plus also starting mores, like how

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Speaker 1: are these two things true?

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Speaker 4: They're not.

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Speaker 6: And this is the saying Donald Trump I wrote about

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Speaker 6: seven years ago in the New York Times when I

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Speaker 6: said he is unmoored to any first principles. This man

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Speaker 6: doesn't have first principles. And so when he says he's

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Speaker 6: the peacemaker president, that doesn't mean anything, because the next

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Speaker 6: week he may decide it's more fun to use his

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Speaker 6: power to make war instead of making peace. Renamed the

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Speaker 6: Department of Defense the Department of War. And that wasn't

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Speaker 6: just symbolic, it was representative of his mindset. And I

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Speaker 6: think Donald Trump is find out what a lot of

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Speaker 6: other presidents before him have found out, is that the

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Speaker 6: zenith of his powers are in foreign and defense policy.

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Speaker 6: Article two of the Constitution affords the president's greatest authority

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Speaker 6: when it comes to the conduct of foreign affairs and

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Speaker 6: his commander in chief role of the United States military.

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Speaker 6: But unlike all of those former presidents. Donald Trump views

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Speaker 6: those powers as an extension of his personal self interest,

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Speaker 6: and that's why we are seeing corrupt conduct and foreign policy,

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Speaker 6: him cutting deals with countries that are then weeks later

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Speaker 6: cutting deals with his company and with his kids, with

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Speaker 6: him taking actions that are favorable towards people who have

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Speaker 6: praised him and unfavorable to those who are not, and

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Speaker 6: in places where he wants to show that he is

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Speaker 6: a strong man. I mean, you know, the blowing up

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Speaker 6: of the boats in the Caribbean against people who do

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Speaker 6: not represent an imminent threat to the United States is

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Speaker 6: not just a war crime. It is almost the perfect

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Speaker 6: encapsulation of a dictator trying to show I am a

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Speaker 6: dictator and I can do whatever I want. The law

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Speaker 6: be damned.

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Speaker 2: The thing that makes me the most depressed is that

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Speaker 2: in Trump one.

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Speaker 1: Point zero, there were all of these things he wanted

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Speaker 1: to do, the people like you stopped him from doing,

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Speaker 1: right like Mattis's and kela Is, and the people around

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Speaker 1: him said like, no, no, you can't do that. Let

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Speaker 1: me just move this piece of paper or the Cohen

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Speaker 1: You know. Now, it is like anyone who may have

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Speaker 1: seemed like they might be doing might have been capable

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Speaker 1: of doing that has decided not to Marco jd Vans

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Speaker 1: this one.

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Speaker 2: That one.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they were picked because they were malleable, but they

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Speaker 1: must have some kind of calculus here right.

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Speaker 6: I think they're calculus is that the MAGA movement will

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Speaker 6: control the party forever. And the loyalty test right now

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Speaker 6: in the Republican Party is how loyal are you to

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Speaker 6: the leader? And if they can say I was the

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Speaker 6: most loyal to Donald Trump, their calculus is they will

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Speaker 6: continue to have ascendency within the party.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 6: I will also say, Molly like I'll be the first

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Speaker 6: to concede that during the first Trump administration this idea

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Speaker 6: of an access of adults around the president, which was

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Speaker 6: a term that I helped coin. There was a Daily

439
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 6: Beast article that our friend Kim Doser wrote at the

440
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 6: beginning of the administration. I spoke to her and I

441
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 6: talked about an access of adults in the Trump administration.

442
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 6: I understand why some people heard that and thought it

443
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 6: was obnoxious, because you know, they were like, look, you're

444
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 6: unelected bureaucrats, this isn't your job, and oh, you know,

445
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 6: way to pat yourselves on the back. You know why

446
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 6: don't you come out here and join the resistance and

447
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 6: fight this guy from the outside. I get it, But

448
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 6: I now finally think, after years, folks are starting to

449
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 6: see why people who wanted to prevent the president from

450
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 6: doing illegal things were needed in the White House. A

451
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 6: lot of mistakes were made by the axis of adults.

452
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 6: You know, it was a moral choose your own adventure,

453
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 6: and I'm sure I chose many of the wrong paths

454
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 6: along the way. But at the end of the day,

455
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 6: the so called deep state wasn't a group of people

456
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 6: conspiring to stop the president from doing things he was

457
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 6: allowed to do. Its president's allowed to do stupid shit.

458
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 6: You know, once they're elected, as long as they're complying

459
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 6: with the law, they can put bad policies in places,

460
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 6: as long as it doesn't break the law. The people

461
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 6: who were pushing back against him, the ones you mentioned,

462
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 6: the Mattises and the Kellys, were pushing back against things

463
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 6: that were unlawful and unconstitutional. And now, as you note,

464
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 6: a group of people who don't want to do that,

465
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 6: who just want to say yes to the things Trump wants,

466
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 6: are very clearly enabling the scariest actions we've ever seen

467
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 6: of someone sitting in the executive office of the President.

468
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:50,920
Speaker 6: And it only gets worse from here. I mean, if

469
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,479
Speaker 6: any of them have an acorn of a conscience and

470
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 6: they do decide to exert it, they will be gone

471
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 6: very very quickly, and they know that. And then you're left,

472
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 6: really truly with the diehard loyalists who are willing to

473
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 6: Some of them are very willing to break the law

474
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 6: for him because they're confident that he will come in

475
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 6: and protect them and offer them pardons. And that's where

476
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 6: I would say to them if I had a chance

477
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 6: to talk to Rubio and others, don't think that by

478
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,439
Speaker 6: committing war crimes and violating the laws of war and

479
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 6: breaking the constitution, that you are going to be fully protected,

480
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 6: because this guy, in the end, only cares about himself.

481
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 6: And I'm not sure he's going to pardon all y'all

482
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 6: when he walks out the door. He may have immunity

483
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 6: at least to the extent that the Supreme Court has

484
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 6: spelled it out, but you guys don't. And people have

485
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 6: followed illegal orders already in this administration. In fact, it's

486
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 6: almost impossible to keep up with how many illegal orders

487
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 6: people have complied with. And I think that's going to

488
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 6: be one of the biggest challenges if the Democrats retake

489
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 6: Congress is documenting that.

490
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: I think there are people in this administration now that

491
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:57,199
Speaker 1: are actually were suent romp, like the Stephen Millers, the

492
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: russ VODs, like that crew. Donald Trump he's not ideological

493
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: the way as Stephen Miller is. Like Stephen Miller, I mean,

494
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: his orders have been, as it's been reported, like go

495
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: in there and make it look scary, right. I mean,

496
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: that's sort of the ethos of ice. I mean that

497
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: crew that you didn't have that in Trump one point

498
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: zero the same way.

499
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,959
Speaker 6: I'm looking down because I was looking up something. In

500
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 6: response to that, Molly, I remembered a number of years ago,

501
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 6: our friend Denver Riggleman, former Republican congressman who defected from

502
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 6: the party, said something to me that I wrote in

503
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 6: my book Blowback, and this is what he said. GOP

504
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 6: Congressman Denver Wriggleman pointed to Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin.

505
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:42,679
Speaker 5: Quote.

506
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 6: Stalin was awful, but you had little Stalin's that were

507
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 6: much much more abusive and terroristic than he was because

508
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 6: they thought they were allowed to be that way. He said,

509
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 6: the return of Trump will bring aids into government who

510
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,160
Speaker 6: lack character, experience or both and are ready for retribution.

511
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 6: Now that several years ago, but I mean that has

512
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 6: come to fruition. And certainly we learned that with the

513
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 6: Soviet Union that the little Stalins were worse because the

514
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 6: only way to climb the ladder was to demonstrate that

515
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 6: you would be more unseemly than the next guy, that

516
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 6: there was no limitation to what you would do for

517
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 6: the ruler. In fact, this is so unremarkable because we've

518
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 6: seen it throughout history that you can go back one

519
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 6: hundred years to Friedrich Hayek who wrote about how this

520
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 6: phenomenon of the worst people rising to the top in

521
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 6: ostocracies had become so consistent. And the reasons for that

522
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 6: are again quite simple, because when you have a dictator

523
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 6: that's all powerful and that has an inclination toward illegality,

524
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 6: you have to demonstrate that you will be the most

525
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 6: dedicated to that commission of crimes than the next guy,

526
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 6: even more than the next guy or gallon. So you

527
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 6: end up with these pretty horrible fucking people. You know,

528
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 6: run in the show and we're seeing that, you know,

529
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 6: does it look full North Korea right now.

530
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 3: No.

531
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 6: But do I think there are people around Donald Trump

532
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 6: who would murder for him?

533
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 4: Oh?

534
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 6: I absolutely do, And and in fact, I would say

535
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,719
Speaker 6: it's already happening. There are people who are engaged in

536
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 6: state sponsored murder right now under this administration, which sounds

537
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 6: like a really a radical thing to said, he has killed.

538
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: At least three people, right, I mean, we know that

539
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: there have been deaths in custody.

540
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: There have been deaths like there have been.

541
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: Maybe they weren't direct, like, maybe it wasn't like bang bang,

542
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: you're dead. But people have died in custoday, which would

543
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: technically be a murder, right.

544
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 6: And there are people who are legitimately concerned that this

545
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 6: administration took very seriously the hypothetical that was presented last

546
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 6: June in front of the Supreme Court in the debate

547
00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 6: about presidential immunity, where uh, you know, the lawyers arguing

548
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 6: against the expansive view of presidential immunity said well, what

549
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 6: would be what would stop the president from then directing

550
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 6: Seal Team six to go assassinate one of his political rivals?

551
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 6: And if you go back and you look at the

552
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 6: response from Trump's lawyers, it's a very middling sort of response.

553
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 6: That's almost a tacit admission of well, if it was

554
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 6: consistent with the president's duties, yeah, he could send Sealed

555
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 6: Team six to go murder the political opposition. Again, Remember

556
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 6: it's the same Donald Trump that you know well who

557
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 6: said I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and get

558
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 6: away with it. He doesn't mean that hypothetically. He means

559
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 6: that literally. He means he could commit very obvious crimes

560
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 6: and get away with it. Not just with his supporters.

561
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 6: He now believes he can escape justice by doing that.

562
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 6: That's the scary as it gets in a constitutional system.

563
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: I think January sixth, there was a moment right after

564
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: January where it was like it was really during January sixth,

565
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: where it was almost like Trump was trying to figure

566
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: out whether he could stay or not, whether he could

567
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: and you had all these very rich donors of his

568
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: being like, look, man, go home, right, remember that, Like

569
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: it was like the closest we've ever had to people

570
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: standing up to him. It was like they were I

571
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: remember because I knew some of these people, and they said,

572
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's enough, like we love you, man, but

573
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: you can't.

574
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: You got to go home.

575
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: And it was the closest Republicans have ever come to

576
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: standing up to him. Again, I'm not making a value judgment.

577
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: I'm just narrating something that happened. It strikes me that

578
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: we are going to have another situation that's like that.

579
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: Now. Maybe it's not you have to go home.

580
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: Maybe it's you can't kill these people, or maybe it's

581
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: you can't jail the entire city of Chicago. I don't

582
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: know what it's going to be because I'm not a psychic,

583
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: but clearly there's going to be a moment where my

584
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: man does something that is so beyond the pale that

585
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: his rich friends are like, you can do autocracy, but

586
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: not like that man, or like and we've seen some

587
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: of that, right, Like we saw there are some of

588
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: these tech bros who've sort of started being like a

589
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: little bit like, well, or really, Joe Rogan is a

590
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: good Joe Rogan has been like, we didn't sign up

591
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: for that, or you know, some of the podcast bros

592
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: have been like, oh, or do you think that never happens?

593
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 1: And I'm just like getting high on my own supply.

594
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 6: I'm not sure if it happens. I think that we're

595
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 6: in a far worse place than after if January let

596
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 6: me put it a different way, if January sixth happened today,

597
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 6: Donald Trump has the support within the Republican Party to

598
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 6: remain in office. Yeah, I believe that firmly. If you

599
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 6: had this current Congress in power in that time period

600
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 6: and knowing everything that they now know about Donald Trump,

601
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 6: they would have stood by him in his effort to

602
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 6: remain in office, and he would have remained past the

603
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 6: swearing in of the next president, and we would be

604
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 6: a in a I think, a full law and violent

605
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 6: conflagration as a country because people would have gone to

606
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 6: the Capitol on the other side of this political spectrum

607
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 6: said eject the man from power, and it would have

608
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 6: gotten very, very ugly. And you know, at the time period,

609
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 6: you know, surveys found that ten percent of Americans believed,

610
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 6: you know, force would be justified to eject one occupant

611
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 6: or the other from the White House, Like there was

612
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 6: enough Americans ready to take up arms that if that

613
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 6: had happened, we would have.

614
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 5: Been in it.

615
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 6: And so now the fact that we have so many

616
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 6: people willing to I think defend Donald Trump's prerogatives no

617
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 6: matter where they go, increases the odds of him creating

618
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 6: that type of situation, and I do believe that situation's

619
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 6: most likely to be him attempting to remain in power.

620
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 6: There's a lot of bad things that will happen, unfortunately

621
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 6: that the American people will look the other way for.

622
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 6: But the most captivating thing in the public conscience about

623
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 6: whether we live in a free country or not is

624
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 6: when election time comes and does it feel like it

625
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 6: was free and fair or not. And we'll see that

626
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 6: in twenty six, and we'll see it in twenty eight.

627
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 6: And if past his prologue, we should be smart and

628
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 6: recognize the man will not leave public office. That can

629
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 6: take a number of forms. He may run as the

630
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 6: vice president under JD. Vance and they do this wink

631
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 6: nod putin Medvedev thing, which is exactly what happened, basically

632
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 6: what happened in Russia. He may try to get named

633
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 6: Speaker of the House by the Republicans if they retake

634
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 6: the majority in the House. But he does not ever

635
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 6: want to be out of an official position because he's

636
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 6: pretty convinced if he's not in an official position, he'll

637
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 6: be in a jail cell. And that's probably right reason

638
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 6: for that. Yeah, Yeah, there's a reason for that, and

639
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 6: so the guy will stop at nothing. In fact, I

640
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 6: have a much harder time with someone presenting me a

641
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 6: credible scenario where the guy rides into the sunset.

642
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 4: I haven't seen it.

643
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 6: I haven't heard it from anyone. And the denials coming

644
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,760
Speaker 6: out of the White House now about a third term

645
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 6: are about the most tepid denials you could ever imagine,

646
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 6: and they don't mean anything. Donald Trump denying something doesn't

647
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 6: mean anything, mark my words. The man will try for

648
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 6: a third term. I think he's got a very good

649
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 6: chance of remaining in office because they will politicize it.

650
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 6: Instead of Republicans turning against him, I don't think they'll

651
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 6: tell him to exit stage right, and that puts us

652
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:23,240
Speaker 6: in a really, really, very alarming position. Now here's one exception,

653
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 6: and the founders wrote about this in the Federalist papers.

654
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 6: The best check on him, the most reliable check on him,

655
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 6: is that ambition counter's ambition, as I think Madison said

656
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 6: in Federalist fifty, which is he's surrounded by other guys

657
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 6: who want to be president, and do they end up

658
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 6: breaking from him because they want to take the party

659
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 6: a new direction. And that's the biggest threat, because then

660
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 6: it hives off part of the tribe away from him,

661
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 6: and it creates the inner tribe rivalry. If no one

662
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 6: does that, if none of them have the courage to

663
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 6: do it, the tribe will stay firmly behind Donald Trump.

664
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 1: Oh that's never I'm going to sleep again. I didn't

665
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: need to sleep. Fine, I'll just stay up for the

666
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: next couple of years.

667
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 6: I don't sleep much lately because it's why I look

668
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 6: like a sloptart all day when I'm giving stuff all.

669
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: Miles just known for your lack of attractiveness. Thank you, Miles,

670
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: You're the best. Really, will you come back anytime?

671
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 6: My friend. Great to be with you as always. Thanks

672
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 6: for everything you do.

673
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,280
Speaker 1: Jimmy Wales is the founder of Wikipedia and the author

674
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: of The Seven Rules of Trust, a blueprint for building

675
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: things that last. Welcome to Fast Politics, Jimmy Wells.

676
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: Great, thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

677
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: I had wanted to have you on to talk about

678
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: this book. You octipize such a super interesting place in

679
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: the world.

680
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: So talk us through this book. Why now?

681
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know it's it's to me. It's a little

682
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 4: bit interesting that it's such an interesting space because certainly

683
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 4: when I started, I thought, oh, let's write an encyclopedia.

684
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 4: And of course, you know, when I was a kid,

685
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 4: if somebody said, oh, yeah, that you know, the the

686
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 4: guy who runs Britannic is going to be and to talk,

687
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 4: we would all fall asleep. You know, it'd be darable.

688
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 4: But all of a sudden, sort of the simple idea

689
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 4: of fact based information is suddenly hugely in the mix. Yeah.

690
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 4: So I've written this book, The Seven Rules of Trust,

691
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 4: mainly because you know, we've seen this enormous decline in trust,

692
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 4: trust in journalism, trust in politicians, trust in business, to

693
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 4: some extent, trust in each other. And we've seen that

694
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: in the last you know, twenty five years. Meanwhile, Wikipedia

695
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 4: has gone from initially being thought of as kind of

696
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 4: a joke to one of the few things people trust,

697
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 4: which isn't to say it's perfect. Of course, it is

698
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 4: far from perfect, but people do think, you know, it's

699
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 4: at least basically. We try to be neutral, we try

700
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: to do the right things, et cetera, et cetera. And

701
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 4: so there's a lot of lessons learned. How did Wikipedia

702
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 4: get so popular, how did we what are the things

703
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 4: that we all need to do to get back to

704
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 4: a culture of trust where we can trust each other

705
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 4: and trust politicians and trust journalism and so on and

706
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 4: so forth.

707
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: Before we talk about the role, how do we get here? Gezink, Well,

708
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: I think it's a few different things.

709
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 4: The big thing we sort of have to mention, but

710
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 4: it's it's far from the only thing is you know,

711
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 4: we do have a president who seems to work very

712
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: very actively to undermine any concept of trust, you know,

713
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 4: in a way that's you know, even his supporters say,

714
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 4: can't take anything he says literally, but you have to

715
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 4: take him seriously and you can't take anything says literally

716
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 4: because he contradicts himself all the time, and you know,

717
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 4: you have no idea really what does that even mean?

718
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,000
Speaker 4: And it's a very odd environment that we're in, you know,

719
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 4: when we look at some of these metrics that these

720
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 4: are these are long sending things. So I think a

721
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: piece of it has to do with business model for journalism,

722
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 4: vocal journalism. It's still pretty well destroyed, and that that

723
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 4: means a lot around you know, where people getting information,

724
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 4: what is the quality of information they're getting? Certainly to

725
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 4: the extent and I'm actually happy to see the rise

726
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 4: in subscription models, because I do think that's actually very

727
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 4: important because if all you're getting, you know, if the

728
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 4: only revenue you get is from ad revenue, and there's

729
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 4: nothing particularly wrong with ad revenue in and of itself,

730
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 4: but tempted to sort of go for clickbait, go for noise,

731
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 4: go for outrage, and then if you know, if we

732
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 4: have a culture that's pretty toxic social media where you know,

733
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 4: the algorithms again they're chasing clicks, they're chasing engagement time

734
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 4: on site, and it turns out it's quite a good

735
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 4: way to get engagement is to piss people off and

736
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: to get a rise out of people and make a

737
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 4: lot of noise. And so none of those trends sort

738
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: of point in the direction of, oh, let's slow down

739
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 4: and have a thoughtful conversation, let's actually chew on ideas,

740
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 4: and you and I might disagree, but these that we

741
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 4: can both live with, et cetera, and we can trust

742
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 4: each other to say, well, all right, yeah, I don't

743
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 4: agree with you, but I really have nothing to say

744
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: to sort of you know, violence, which is sadly something

745
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 4: that I'm very worried about.

746
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 2: Talk to us about trust.

747
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: I want you to talk to us about a really

748
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 1: important element and it speaks to the local news angle, right.

749
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so you know, make it personal. The concept

750
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 4: of trust is the concept of an individual person deciding

751
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: to trust something someone, whatever it might be, and it

752
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 4: isn't based on numbers. You've really got to think about,

753
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 4: you know, the other person, what you're saying, whether they're

754
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 4: going to find what you're doing to be trustworthy, and

755
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 4: so on and so forth. You know, I do think

756
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 4: we all understand this in a personal level. I mean,

757
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: I think the good news is, in my opinion, society

758
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 4: isn't sort of at a personal level, most people, with

759
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 4: their friends and even their maybe your relatives who you

760
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 4: don't agree with on politics, people are basically still very

761
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,799
Speaker 4: nice people, and you know, they do trust each other.

762
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 4: And there are people I wouldn't necessarily like how they're

763
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 4: going to vote, and I wouldn't trust them in certain regards,

764
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 4: but you know what, I trust them to do all

765
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 4: kinds of things, to not cheat me at the grocery store,

766
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 4: that sort of thing. So we need to start building

767
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 4: from there. That's kind of the make it personal. It's like,

768
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 4: let's remember those individual people are probably basically decent people,

769
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 4: and yeah, it's advice as much. I think it's quite

770
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 4: applicable in business, you know. And I'll just give an example, like,

771
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 4: if you're driving your online business by doing a bunch

772
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 4: of ab testing and you're not sort of stepping back

773
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 4: and thinking in a very human personal way about what

774
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 4: you're doing, you may find Gee, when we run this

775
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 4: type of story, we get more clicks, or when we

776
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,399
Speaker 4: promote this kind of content, people stay longer. But if

777
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 4: in the process you're really undermining people's trust in the

778
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 4: platform and the value of what you're doing in the

779
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 4: long run, you're not doing the right thing, Like you're

780
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 4: not being personal. You're just like looking at some numbers

781
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 4: and going, oh, here's how you get more clicks, here's

782
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 4: how you get engagement on a website, even though people

783
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 4: are kind of getting a little bit sick of the stuff.

784
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 4: And you know, I don't know how many people. I

785
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 4: think most people have this experience of like me, personally,

786
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 4: I have. Actually it's been a few years now. I

787
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 4: deleted the password for Twitter off my phone, and I

788
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 4: sort of steadfastly refused to have any way of getting

789
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 4: on Twitter on my phone simply because you don't need to.

790
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: Tell me why you don't want to be if there

791
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: ever were a person who relates to that statement.

792
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:19,959
Speaker 2: It is made.

793
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 4: Because it's engaging, it's addictive. But it's like every time

794
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 4: you get into some quarrel with some idiot on Twitter

795
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 4: and you sort of realize, actually, that was an utter

796
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 4: waste of my time, Like that was not a useful thing.

797
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 4: I don't I'm not a better person for it. This

798
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 4: isn't like, oh, someone challenged my ideas and I had

799
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 4: a thoughtful engagement and made me rethink as No, it's

800
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 4: just like crazy stuff. And so even if the engagement

801
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: numbers look pretty good, I think in the long run,

802
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: people go, you know what, I'm just gonna delete this,

803
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 4: like I'm too addicted to it and it's not making

804
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 4: me happy. End of story.

805
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the very few good things about Twitter.

806
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: And it's funny because it's like it's one of the

807
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 1: very few good things and it seems to have just

808
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: infuriated Elon is community notes and community notes is a

809
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: very similar I feel like mechanism to Wikipedia in a way,

810
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 1: And I'd love you to sort of explain what community

811
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: notes are. Explain what Wikipedia, you know, Explain this really

812
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: good thing that's come out of it.

813
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 4: I'm with you. I really like community notes, so I

814
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: think it's a great thing, and I think, as far

815
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 4: as I can tell, they seem to be running it

816
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: in an honest way.

817
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: It's shocking.

818
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 4: I sort of touch that shocking, but I sort of

819
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 4: trust it. But what it is, you know, like generally,

820
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 4: if it pops up, if I have any time whatsoever,

821
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 4: I try to do it. I try to look at

822
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: this read and sometimes this stuff is absolutely irrelevant to

823
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 4: me and I'm just some random human being. But basically

824
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 4: it pops up. You know, people propose a note, and

825
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 4: the note can often be like a fact check, a

826
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 4: correction of facts is often so one of the ones

827
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 4: I really love. It's quite common in and and no

828
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 4: note needed. But generally, you know, it's like a way

829
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 4: that sort of multiple people can vote and say, like

830
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 4: this is not correct. So it's similar in that sense

831
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 4: to Wikipedia sort of trying to say, like, hold on

832
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:00,680
Speaker 4: a second, is this right? Is this wrong? And it's

833
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 4: really useful, you know, for factual claims that are highly

834
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 4: misleading or false, which are very very very common on Twitter.

835
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 4: I mean the problem with not doing that was always

836
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 4: you know, the highly inflammatory factual claim that's false, gets

837
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 4: spread very very quickly, and people don't have a means

838
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 4: of telling is that right or not? And you know,

839
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: I actually I remember once I sort of retreated or

840
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 4: something and sort of complained because basically, what it happens

841
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 4: an account, a random account. This is when they first

842
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 4: started selling the Blue tick, and the account said it

843
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 4: was a journalist from Al Jazeera, and it made some

844
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 4: completely absurd claim and I believed it for five minutes,

845
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 4: but I quickly scrambled around and started looking, hold on

846
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 4: a second, this isn't even remotely true. And I said,

847
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 4: you know, look, elon, this is somebody pretending to be

848
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: a real journalist and they aren't. And he sort of

849
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 4: responded with like a laughing emoji, you know, scare quotes

850
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 4: real journalist, ha ha ha Right, and I'm like, you're

851
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 4: totally missing my point. Right, you can make fun of

852
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 4: real journalists right as being biased or whatever, But the

853
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 4: truth is you're letting some scammer pretend to be a

854
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 4: journalist and spread complete nonsense. That's the sort of thing

855
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: that should have been, like community noted, it probably would

856
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 4: have been, probably was. And it's a little slow, you know,

857
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 4: as things still viral claims go viral and so on

858
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 4: and so forth. But yeah, it's it's one of the

859
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 4: few things that I like about the current state of

860
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 4: X as they call it.

861
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: And it is in a way how Wikipedia works too.

862
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, there is something to it.

863
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the.

864
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: Difference is that Wikipedia has citations and Community Notes still

865
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: has citations too.

866
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, I mean I think you know, one of

867
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 4: the things that sometimes happens, and lately I've seen it

868
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 4: more than once. So here's the way the deletion process works.

869
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 4: So you see a page and you think, uh, this

870
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 4: page is bogus in whatever way, and you nominated for deletion. Well, literally,

871
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 4: any human being on the planet can nominate something for deletion.

872
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 4: There's no voting, there's nothing, but it's just a nomination

873
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 4: and then a notice is place and then a discussion

874
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,879
Speaker 4: takes place, and often those those discussions are closed very

875
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 4: quickly because the nomination was ridiculous. So, for example, if

876
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 4: somebody nominated for deletion nine to eleven, right, whatever it

877
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 4: might be, but just to say this page should be deleted,

878
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 4: it's just gonna be reverted very quickly. People, that's ridiculous.

879
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 4: That's not even an argument other cases, it's like, no,

880
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 4: we actually have to discuss, you know, like here's something

881
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 4: in the news, or here's something you know, do we

882
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 4: need an article about this? Do we not an example

883
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 4: that Actually I don't want to talk about elon the

884
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 4: whole time. But yeah, he was upset at some point

885
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 4: because there was a there's a page about the Twitter

886
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 4: files when he took over Twitter, and they released a

887
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 4: bunch of Twitter internal documents. I remember it was nominated

888
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 4: for deletion and it already had been massive in the news.

889
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 4: It was clearly going to stay. It's clearly a news.

890
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 2: Did he want it deleted?

891
00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 4: No? No, No. He was mad that it was being

892
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: that and it was kind of like here's the way

893
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 4: people express it. They are trying to delete it, like

894
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: Wikipedia is trying to delete this. It's like, no, Wikipedia

895
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 4: is not some rando proposed it for deletion. If you

896
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 4: go and look at the discussion, it's like ninety eight

897
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 4: percent of the people are saying keep it's important and

898
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 4: they will be closed within an hour. Like that's it.

899
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 4: That's the whole process. And so when people don't understand

900
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 4: how it works, right, they think, oh, look, Wikipedia is

901
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 4: planning to delete this no, Wikipedia is not planning to

902
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 4: delete it. Some one person said it. I've almost wondered

903
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 4: if maybe we should on high traffic pages institute of

904
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 4: system where maybe at least two people have to nominate

905
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 4: before we post on the page. But you know, currently

906
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 4: that's the way it works, and you know, it's all

907
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 4: part of the process, and often people do get that.

908
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 4: Like people know like Wikipedia is open, and it's a community,

909
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 4: and it's a dialogue and a discourse, and so you know,

910
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 4: often if a page is vandalized to say something ridiculous,

911
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 4: people kind of they take it and they go, all right,

912
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 4: well they're going to that'll get reverted very quickly. But

913
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 4: other times they don't realize that, and you know, you'll

914
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 4: get all kinds of claims that just really don't make sense.

915
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time thinking about the Internet

916
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: and thinking about how to be able to restore trust

917
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and I wonder if Wikipedia and community

918
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 1: notes are a framework for that, like if you had

919
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: to have things cited, or you had to have a

920
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: sort of group putting together something. So I was at

921
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: a party recently and a very senior member of the

922
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: Senate complained that there's no fact checking on the Internet.

923
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 2: It's probably responsible for that.

924
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 1: But because they could have regulated fact checking in but

925
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,440
Speaker 1: that is neither here nor there. My own anxiety and

926
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: hostility about that. But I just wonder if you were

927
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 1: a person who was really focused, I'm trying to bring

928
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: truth to the Internet, or trying to bring some kind

929
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: of shared reality, not even truth, because I feel like

930
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,360
Speaker 1: that's so triggering share reality the internet, would that be

931
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: the way to do it?

932
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a piece of it, for sure.

933
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 4: I mean when I think about, you know, how do

934
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 4: we potentially improve social media, it's a really hard problem.

935
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 4: And I sort of to to give credit to the

936
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 4: social media companies who have plenty of criticisms of it's

937
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 4: a really hard problem because you know, one of the

938
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 4: things that makes it easier for us is we don't

939
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 4: have any kind of a box that's like what's on

940
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 4: your mind?

941
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 5: Right?

942
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 4: Like you know, and the truth is, if you've got

943
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 4: a box that says what are you thinking, some people

944
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 4: think absolutely fact free horrible things and that's just the way.

945
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 4: That's just a fact. But the algorithms are well within

946
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 4: their control, and you know, you could, for example, particularly

947
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 4: nowadays with AI, you can imagine an algorithmic tweak where

948
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 4: you say, you know, if a post cites a quality source,

949
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 4: and you can be quite open ended about what you

950
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 4: mean by quality source, and a quick check by an

951
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 4: AI is that it's accurately saying what's in the source,

952
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 4: or right, it's arguing against the source or whatever. You know,

953
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 4: that's fine, you don't allow arguing, you know, like this

954
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 4: article is completely wrong. I disagree, that's fine, you know,

955
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,439
Speaker 4: et ceterat cetera. But then you would boost those kinds

956
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 4: of posts as opposed to just random rants and things

957
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 4: like that. I think it's not easy, but it could

958
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 4: be valuable. So I have it's just a pilot project

959
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 4: and I hardly ever talk about it because we're still

960
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: working on the software, but I will because it's relevant here.

961
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 4: But trustcafe dot io is like a pilot project. I've

962
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 4: just got two developers working on it. We've got a

963
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 4: small community, and the idea there is to say, let's

964
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 4: work out a way to promote posts based on the

965
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 4: most trusted members of the community, and there's a whole

966
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 4: trust system people can trust each other and so forth.

967
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 4: The idea is, you know, it's like the challenges with

968
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 4: an algorithm like you. In order to be popular, the

969
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 4: site has to be engaging, it has to be interesting, right,

970
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 4: So it's like, oh, we only promote things that have

971
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 4: detailed sort of treatise is with fifty seven footnotes. Well,

972
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 4: that's never going to work because people really want to post, Wow,

973
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 4: this restaurant was great their last night. Fine, you know,

974
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 4: but to sort of be able to say, actually, we're

975
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 4: gonna we're gonna find ways to identify as humans the

976
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 4: people who are trusted in the community and will promote

977
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 4: that stuff and will downraatee stuff that's from random accounts

978
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,919
Speaker 4: or from people who've you know, have been heavily sort

979
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 4: of voted down on a trust factor before. Now the

980
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 4: hard part is, you know, if people conflate trust with

981
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 4: I agree with you, right, because that's not the same thing,

982
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 4: and it shouldn't be the same thing. If somebody is

983
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 4: opposite you on the political spectrum but they're engaging in

984
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 4: a thoughtful way. I think most of us, like mature people,

985
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 4: can go, yeah, that's actually brilliant, Like that's who I

986
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 4: want to debate with because I'll probably learn something and actually,

987
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 4: you know, that's a useful activity in life as opposed

988
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 4: to you know, arguing patrols, which is, you know, an

989
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 4: absolute waste of typing.

990
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 2: So no, when I think that's I think that's the goal.

991
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: Jimmy, I'm so glad that I got to talk to

992
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: you because to know there's someone else out there thinking

993
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 1: about this stuff and trying to fix it. You know,

994
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: sometimes everything feels so especially right now in America, like

995
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: we're just heading into a ditch. So to hear this

996
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: like it is actually quite heartening for me.

997
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:15,919
Speaker 5: Yeah.

998
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 4: Well, I mean I think the book. I try to

999
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 4: be hopeful because you know, I just think about the

1000
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 4: Wikipedia community such a bunch of really nice people, and

1001
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,479
Speaker 4: they just want to do stuff that's useful in help

1002
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 4: and they enjoy intellectual pursuits with each other and so

1003
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 4: on and so forth, and they're not very political broadly,

1004
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 4: and you know, I think that's really great. And then

1005
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 4: you know it's just like wow, like we need more

1006
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 4: of this, We need a lot more of this, because

1007
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 4: it's a scary time, you know, I mean it's a

1008
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 4: scary time. I think this whole Charlie Kirk thing just

1009
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 4: weighs on me very heavily, because clearly, Charlie Kirk is

1010
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 4: a person who I would have a great many disagreements

1011
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 4: with ideological, political and so on. And I didn't pay

1012
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 4: much attention to him before hand. I just knew he's

1013
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 4: some Trump supporter guy. And since i've you know, I've

1014
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 4: seen clips of him and I've watched this and some

1015
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 4: of the things he said were just outrageous and offensive.

1016
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 4: But what's interesting is he did get out there and

1017
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,399
Speaker 4: try to engage with people he disagreed with. And when

1018
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 4: he was assassinated, he was sitting on a pay sitting

1019
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 4: on a stage with some people and answering questions from students,

1020
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 4: and some of the questions the last question he answered

1021
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 4: was quite a hostile question and he was just about

1022
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,479
Speaker 4: to give I kind of know where he was going

1023
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 4: with the answer, you know, whether it's accurate or true

1024
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 4: or not. And it's like, wow, like this is bad, right,

1025
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 4: this is really bad because it's going to happen on

1026
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 4: both sides.

1027
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 2: Violence is horrible.

1028
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,759
Speaker 4: It's bad. And in the book I, you know, I

1029
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 4: talk about a friend who was assassinated. Here Joe Cox,

1030
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 4: a member of parliament, and here it is both sides.

1031
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 4: There was a Conservative member of parliament who was assassinated

1032
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 4: as well. And it's like, Wow, like this is really bad.

1033
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 4: There's so many knock on effects, right, So it's bad.

1034
00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 4: It's just bad in and of itself. But also you

1035
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 4: think about things like, are good people going to be

1036
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 4: afraid to go into politics? Are good people going to

1037
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 4: be afraid to all speak out? It's all bad and

1038
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 4: the inflammatory rhetoric that you see just recently we saw

1039
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 4: I haven't watched the video, so I don't with Trump.

1040
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 4: If you read a quote, you never know if he

1041
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 4: was joking or telling the truth or what do you think?

1042
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: You know?

1043
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 4: But you know when he's saying the army needs to

1044
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 4: go into the cities and it's the enemy within and

1045
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 4: it's a war. If you take that seriously, that is

1046
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 4: unbelievably terrifying. That is an absolutely absurd and ridiculous thing

1047
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 4: to say. Even if you think, gosh, we've got a

1048
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 4: really serious problem with crime, even if you think, gosh,

1049
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,919
Speaker 4: you've got a really serious problem with immigration. Whatever you're

1050
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 4: correct or incorrect, whatever your political views are on some

1051
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 4: of those things. The idea that it's time for the

1052
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 4: army to come in take over. Wow, Like that's unheard

1053
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 4: of and terrifying.

1054
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,279
Speaker 2: Jimmy wows, thank you for joining us.

1055
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. It's been fantastic.

1056
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: No Jesse Cannon.

1057
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 3: So, Mollie, I like this report over at Axios. It

1058
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 3: says the headline really just says exactly where we're at

1059
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,720
Speaker 3: in America today. Trump readying a quote unquote living hell

1060
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 3: for GOP senators over nuking filibuster.

1061
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: So Donald Trump really really really wants to nuke's a filmbuster,

1062
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 1: and he is decided that this is the way.

1063
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 2: Now, this is what keeps happening with Donald Trump.

1064
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: Donald Trump decides he wants something, Republicans say no, then

1065
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: they say yes, they.

1066
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 2: Do it, and here's what happens.

1067
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:42,600
Speaker 1: Nothing good, Right, It's like more data points that Donald

1068
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: Trump can do whatever he wants. So in my mind,

1069
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: if I were a Republican, I would stand up to him.

1070
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: This is just like he's just going to keep running

1071
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 1: over you until you stand up to him. So he

1072
00:55:55,480 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: wants you to nuke the filibuster because he doesn't care

1073
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 1: about the role of law, he doesn't care about norms

1074
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: and institutions.

1075
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: He doesn't have a fog.

1076
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they do nukes a fellabuster. Maybe I

1077
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: don't think anyone wants to nukes a fellabuster, and I

1078
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 1: think that everyone knows that if they do nukes a fellibuster,

1079
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: it's going to ultimately lead to a lot of bad

1080
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: shit and more having to say no to a man

1081
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 1: who does not like people to say no. So again,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where this goes. If he spends all

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00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: his time torturing Republican senators, that will be quite fun,

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Speaker 1: and I, for one would love it.

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Speaker 2: That's it for.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday,

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00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,319
Speaker 1: and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make

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00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:47,440
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoy this podcast,

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00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

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00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:52,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.