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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here

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Speaker 1: and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 1: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 1: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent

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Speaker 1: coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about,

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Speaker 1: it means the absolute world to have your support. What

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Speaker 1: are you waiting for? Become a premium subscriber today at

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Speaker 1: Breakingpoints dot Com. Good morning, Happy Wednesday, Welcome to Counterpoints.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing, Ryan? Wonderful? Never better? How about you?

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Speaker 1: I'm good. You said you had two pieces of news

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Speaker 1: to mention right off the top here before we dive

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Speaker 1: into what happened there one. So Germany overnight officially authorized

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Speaker 1: the release of fourteen of its tanks news to Ukraine,

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Speaker 1: which we'll escalate the war according to the Russian embassy

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Speaker 1: in Germany and also according to common sense. And they

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Speaker 1: also authorize other countries that are in possession of German

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Speaker 1: tanks to release those into Ukraine. The US has even

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Speaker 1: said that it's going it's going to move forward with

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Speaker 1: the process of shipping tanks over to Ukraine, which is

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Speaker 1: what got Germany to go along with it. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: and so and then also in the House representatives, the

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Speaker 1: you know, the House Republicans booted Ilan Omar from the

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Speaker 1: House Foreign Relations Committee, Adam Schiff and Swallwell, Eric Swalwell

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Speaker 1: from the Intelligence Committee. I mean to me, it's I

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Speaker 1: get it that Democrats started it when they went after

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Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green. But if you can't be on a

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Speaker 1: committee with somebody you disagree with like that, that's the

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Speaker 1: first step to the whole thing falling apart. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: in a bad tit for tat right now, and voters

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Speaker 1: on both sides will take nothing less than responding for

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Speaker 1: the responding to the tit with the tat right because

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Speaker 1: because once you start kicking certain people off, and this

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Speaker 1: is the problem with censorship as well. That why big

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Speaker 1: tech platforms at first were hands off, because they said,

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Speaker 1: if we take down some things but not others, that

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Speaker 1: looks like we're endorsing the things that we don't take down.

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Speaker 1: Advertising the same way, if you accept some ads but

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Speaker 1: not other ads, then it's like, well you didn't not

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Speaker 1: take that ad, so therefore you must approve of all

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Speaker 1: the other ones. Well, this is actually a really great

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Speaker 1: transition into the topic because, as I've been thinking, the

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Speaker 1: topic of our first block here, which is the documents

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Speaker 1: found that Mike Pence's Indiana home, is that we're in

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Speaker 1: locked in this ridiculous pattern where politicians are just throwing

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Speaker 1: stones in glasshouses and wasting all of our time and

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Speaker 1: money in the process. We now have two special counsels

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Speaker 1: into classified documents that were found, the third for Pens

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Speaker 1: and I hope we don't. This is the news. Yesterday

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Speaker 1: CNN broke that last week twelve documents, about a dozen

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Speaker 1: documents were found in Mike Pence's Indiana home. It is

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Speaker 1: not clear, according to CNN, what those documents are related to,

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Speaker 1: which is a huge piece of this puzzle. Pence asked

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Speaker 1: his lawyer to conduct the search in the wake of

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Speaker 1: everything that have been going on with the Trump documents

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Speaker 1: and the Biden die documents. He immediately alerted the National Archives,

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Speaker 1: which is what you're supposed to do. Then apparently these

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Speaker 1: documents were entaped up and unopened boxes. That's per his attorney.

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Speaker 1: But Mike Pence has weighed in on the other document

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Speaker 1: scandals in a way that's not super helpful to him

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Speaker 1: right now, I believe we have a clip of what

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Speaker 1: he told David Mure earlier this year. I actually think

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Speaker 1: this was just a November take a listen, take any

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Speaker 1: classified documents with you from the White House? I did not.

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Speaker 1: Do you see any reason for anyone to take classified

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Speaker 1: documents with them leaving the White House? Well, there'd be

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Speaker 1: no reason to have classified documents, particularly if they were

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Speaker 1: in an unprotected area. Well, there were classified documents, and

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Speaker 1: they were in, as you report, an unprotected area. So Ryan,

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Speaker 1: what drives me crazy about all of this is that

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Speaker 1: it was clearly there's a substantive reason to be concerned

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Speaker 1: about unsecure documents, whether because there's espionage at mar A

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Speaker 1: Lago or there's Hunter Biden's garage, he's engaged in high

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Speaker 1: level foreign lobbying and there's unsecured documents just laying around

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Speaker 1: the place. The likelihood that these documents were reasonably classified

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Speaker 1: and very sensitive and then actually came to be accessed

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Speaker 1: improperly is small. And now we have two Special Counsel

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Speaker 1: investigations going into something in which the likelihood for all

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Speaker 1: of this is that people accidentally take classified documents because

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Speaker 1: documents dirty little secret in Washington, d C. Are the

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Speaker 1: classification system is wildly abused, and so it's much more

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Speaker 1: likely that that was the case. And that's not to

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Speaker 1: negate the reality that there may have been something serious here,

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Speaker 1: but it is to say this coverage has been disproportionate

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Speaker 1: because it's just become a political football in a very

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Speaker 1: unhelpful way. And so in some ways, Democrats decision to

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Speaker 1: go after Trump over these documents rather than go after

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Speaker 1: him and we're going to talk about what they might

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Speaker 1: also go after him over down in Georgia pretty soon,

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Speaker 1: but to focus on these classified documents rather than let's say,

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Speaker 1: some type of you know, Saudi bribery related to the

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Speaker 1: killing of Koushogi, like you know, something that is a

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Speaker 1: genuine like world historic crime rather rather than a paperwork violation. However,

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Speaker 1: you know, like you said, depending on what kind of paperwork,

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Speaker 1: names of people who end up getting killed, Like Okay,

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Speaker 1: now you're talking like significant problems, but we don't know

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Speaker 1: that yet, And like you said, it's more likely that

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Speaker 1: it's that it's something small that was over overclassified. So

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Speaker 1: Democrat's decision to go after him for that then sets

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Speaker 1: them up to be hoisted on their own bootard. Like

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Speaker 1: this with Biden finding stuff in his University of Pennsylvania closet,

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Speaker 1: and then and then his garage next to his corvette

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Speaker 1: or his Mustang or whatever he's gotten there. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: then hilariously, you know Mike Pence, you know, he's he's

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Speaker 1: got some he's got some documents too. It does seem

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Speaker 1: like they came down on Pence a lot harder than

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Speaker 1: they came down even on Trump or Biden. Eventually, they

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Speaker 1: raided Trump, but he seemed to invite that by being

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Speaker 1: completely shady about the way he was handling and not

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Speaker 1: cooperating them. But Pence's lawyers told the National Archives. National

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Speaker 1: Archives told the Department of Justice. Penzis lawyers were in

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Speaker 1: communication with the National Archives, and they were setting up

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Speaker 1: times to give these documents back, and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, the Department Justice shows up. Yeah, it seemed

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Speaker 1: like they were eager, like, oh now we've got two

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Speaker 1: to one, so we're back in the lead on this scandal. Well,

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Speaker 1: because it keeps happening with Biden. I mean there's new

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Speaker 1: documents that turn up every few days. So they're in

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Speaker 1: a rhythm, right, like they're ready to go. They know

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Speaker 1: what to do. They have the drill down, that got

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Speaker 1: the personnel ready. Sure, it's a well oiled machine at

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Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, it's muscle reflex. More classified documents at

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Speaker 1: someone's house, Like, let's jump on it and get the

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Speaker 1: truck ready. And that's again like Pence, you can see.

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Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting in that David Muir back

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Speaker 1: and forth. He looks very hesitant to me to come

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Speaker 1: out fully and say I did not take any classified documents,

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Speaker 1: because he, just like Trump knows, just like Biden knows

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Speaker 1: that the likelihood that something that was classified and properly

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Speaker 1: or overclassified to your point, ended up in his paperwork somewhere.

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Speaker 1: I mean, at this point you have his lawyers going

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Speaker 1: through boxes that are taped up and unopened looking for

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Speaker 1: classified documents. By the way, fine, fine, but if we

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Speaker 1: end up with a third special counsel for Mike Pence,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a great example of how much

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Speaker 1: time we waste by getting locked in these ruts and

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Speaker 1: the tip for tat. It's such a waste of everybody's time,

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Speaker 1: it's a waste of our money, it's a waste of

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Speaker 1: the media attention, and just all around. I think statement

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Speaker 1: on how silly our politics are right now, and Edward

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Speaker 1: Snowden underlined it if we could put up a four here,

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Speaker 1: So Edward Snowden posted, how is it possible that I

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Speaker 1: have fewer classified documents in my house than the last

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Speaker 1: few White House administrations? The Espionage Act is a quote

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Speaker 1: strict liability crime. Good intentions are no defense under the

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Speaker 1: dumb law. These guys are all unindo I did criminals? Perfect,

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Speaker 1: He's not wrong. No liaves detected there? Like that? Is

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Speaker 1: that is accurate? Well? I was gonna say you would

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Speaker 1: remember this, snowed. In the documents that were brought to

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Speaker 1: light by Snowden, the classification abuse was pretty evident just

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Speaker 1: in those I mean, that was like a really good

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Speaker 1: window into how the system was abused, right right, Because

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Speaker 1: and that's why it's such a dangerous path to go

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Speaker 1: down to prosecute somebody like Julian Assange for publishing classified documents,

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Speaker 1: because then the United States government can get around the

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Speaker 1: First Amendment by just classifying everything and saying, well, it's

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Speaker 1: not that we're censoring the press. It's not that we're

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Speaker 1: restricting what the press can publish. We're just saying you

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Speaker 1: can't publish classified documents. Oh, and by the way everything

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Speaker 1: is classified. And there are a lot of authoritarian, autocratic

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Speaker 1: or autocratic leaning governments that do actually have these State

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Speaker 1: Secrets Acts where basically everything is classified. And that's what

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Speaker 1: they used then to crack down on any any any

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Speaker 1: media that is not even opposition but just like neutral,

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Speaker 1: saying that, yeah, you reported on a cabinet meeting that

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Speaker 1: was held. Those cabinet meetings are state secrets. You're all

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Speaker 1: under arrest for national security reason, national scurity, This cannot

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Speaker 1: be public information. Yeah, that's a great, a great slippery

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Speaker 1: slope argument at how easily that can turn into something

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Speaker 1: really dangerous. Right, And the and the reason they so

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Speaker 1: often do it is to avoid embarrassment, right, classification because

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Speaker 1: of shame, like we screwed up. Let's urryup, let's reverse

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Speaker 1: classify all of this. You see that, you see that

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Speaker 1: happening all the time, and in fact that it showed

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Speaker 1: up in the Twitter files if you remember, the Department

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Speaker 1: Homeland Security has started to try to like reverse classify

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Speaker 1: its efforts around some of these like US Army bots

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Speaker 1: around the world, not for any reason because they used

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Speaker 1: to publicly declare themselves to be affiliate with the army.

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Speaker 1: Now they were getting embarrassed. They're like, oh, this whole

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Speaker 1: thing's classified. Oh that was Lee's first Yes, let's not

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Speaker 1: talk about this classified. Yeah, but according to the Wayback Machine,

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Speaker 1: it used to say it was a Pentagon account. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's classified too. Yeah, wayback Machine is breaking the espionage

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Speaker 1: I yeah, yeah. And I think the big missing piece

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Speaker 1: of this puzzle again is we don't even know what

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Speaker 1: these documents are related to, whether it's pens. We don't

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Speaker 1: know what a lot of the Biden documents are related to.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, this could range from being something

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Speaker 1: that is legitimately serious to something that is wildly unserious,

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Speaker 1: like a lunch shorter. So, speaking of a robust free press,

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Speaker 1: there was actually some very good news out of the

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Speaker 1: Department of Justice yesterday, Believe it or not. Let's roll

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Speaker 1: this is. This is Jonathan Cantor, who we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about for a long time on this show and also

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Speaker 1: on the previous version of it Back at the Hills,

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Speaker 1: as somebody who was really going to potentially bring it

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Speaker 1: to big tech, and it's it's good to see that

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Speaker 1: he's delivering here. So here's here's Jonathan Cantor. Let's role

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Speaker 1: b one as a legendar complaint. In late twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: a Google digital advertising executive asked the following question in

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Speaker 1: an internal email exchange quote, is there a deeper issue

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Speaker 1: with us owning the platform, the exchange, and the huge network.

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Speaker 1: The analogy would be if Goldman or City Bank owned

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Speaker 1: the New York Stock Exchange unquote. The answer to Google's

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Speaker 1: rhetorical question is yes, indeed, there is a deeper issue.

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Speaker 1: So the Department of Justice has brought a landmark case

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Speaker 1: against Google. This is the United States versus Google, and

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Speaker 1: they're particularly going after their ad tech platform, saying that

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Speaker 1: because they own everything involved in it and are just

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Speaker 1: hoovering up all the money, that that's illegal. What did

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Speaker 1: you make of Cantor's decision to pull the trigger here? Well,

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Speaker 1: that quote he zeroed it on from a Google ad executive,

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Speaker 1: that is incredible, just sort of using out loud speaking

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Speaker 1: of things people wish they could probably make private, just

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Speaker 1: musing out loud about their monopoly power in a way

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Speaker 1: that completely I think it is a great explanation of

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Speaker 1: the problem with their monopoly power. So for Canter to

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Speaker 1: zero in on this, this is the second major lawsuit

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Speaker 1: that the Department of Justice has filed against Google in

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Speaker 1: two years. The first one was under the Trump administration.

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Speaker 1: That one was for the search engine function. This one

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Speaker 1: is for the ad business. This is the suit says

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Speaker 1: Google believed that quote, it could become the be all

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Speaker 1: and end all location for all ads serving and would

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Speaker 1: no longer have to compete on the merits. It could

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Speaker 1: simply set the rules of the game to exclude rivals.

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Speaker 1: The result, then, as the DOJ says, is that website

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Speaker 1: creators earn less and advertisers pay more than they would

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Speaker 1: in a market where unfettered competitive pressure could discipline prices

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Speaker 1: and lead to more innovation and tech tools that would

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Speaker 1: ultimately result in higher quality and lower costs. That's absolutely true,

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Speaker 1: and it's a reason that so many of the libertarian

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Speaker 1: vendors of tech are completely missing that monopoly power is

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Speaker 1: unless you're like fully on the inn ran side of

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Speaker 1: the monopoly debate, power is freedom. It's an absolute obstruction

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Speaker 1: to free markets, and Google, adds is a great example

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Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, let's actually play a little more of

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Speaker 1: canter here and then we can get Google's response. The

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Speaker 1: Department alleges that Google engaged in fifteen years of sustained

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Speaker 1: conduct that had and continues to have the effect of

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Speaker 1: driving out rivals, diminishing competition, inflating advertising costs, reducing website

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Speaker 1: publisher revenues, steyming innovation, and flattening our public marketplace of ideas.

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Speaker 1: And so if we could put up B three here

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Speaker 1: with this is Google's public response. They said, the DOJ's

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Speaker 1: lawsuit ignores the enormous competition and add ten, it attempts

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Speaker 1: to unwind acquisitions made nearly fifteen years ago, doing so

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Speaker 1: with harm publishers and advertisers while chilling innovation, chilling innovation,

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Speaker 1: chill innovation. The only part of that that is a

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Speaker 1: factual claim. The others are just okay, unwine acquisitions made

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Speaker 1: fifteen years ago. Fine, yeah, we do want to do

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Speaker 1: that double click it was a big one. So it

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Speaker 1: DOJ's loss. It ignores the enormous competition ad tech. What

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Speaker 1: competition and ad tech? Right, are you familiar with any

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Speaker 1: competition in ad tech? They think they'll point to Facebook. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that Facebook also is a monopoly that hoovers up. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, don't worry, it's fine. And another thing Kantor

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Speaker 1: said that I think is interesting is he ended on

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Speaker 1: saying that Google was flattening the public marketplace of ideas.

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Speaker 1: And this is a point I always appreciate that Matt

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Speaker 1: Storer makes, which is when you have monopolies and as

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Speaker 1: the right has come to be antiganistic and to cheer

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Speaker 1: on people like Jonathan Canter and Lena Khan and the

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Speaker 1: new brandicians, it's because it's been very illustrated, to a

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Speaker 1: very i think extreme point, the way in which monopoly

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Speaker 1: power creates monopoly power over discourse and ideas. And the

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Speaker 1: left has that right now. And it happened at the

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Speaker 1: Federalists to us with Google Ads. They threatened to deep

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Speaker 1: platform us from the ad business over our comment section.

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Speaker 1: Google owns YouTube. By the way. If they're so worried

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Speaker 1: about comment sections and how that might reflect on a publisher,

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Speaker 1: they should probably be more introspective. But you can see

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Speaker 1: how these little things comments, yes well really from Google

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Speaker 1: that you can really see how these silly things become

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Speaker 1: levers of enormous ideological power. And that Cantor said that

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Speaker 1: is important because it means he's sort of extending that

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Speaker 1: olive branch to people who want to come into the

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Speaker 1: cult with him. Yeah, let's roll a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Cantor House here's before. Here are just five examples. First,

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Speaker 1: locking in content creators through tying arrangements. Second, manipulating auctions,

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Speaker 1: including by giving itself a first look and then a

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Speaker 1: last look advantage over competing at exchanges. Third, blocking industry

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Speaker 1: participants from using rivals technology and punishing those that tried. Fourth,

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Speaker 1: amassing and abusing troves of its rivals bidding data, and

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Speaker 1: fifth depriving customers of choice by degrading the quality of

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Speaker 1: Google's own products. And so that this goes right to

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Speaker 1: what you were talking about, the way that publishers have

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Speaker 1: no choice but to use basically but to use Google,

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Speaker 1: and Google has a they can make the first their

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Speaker 1: own company then can bid on their own platform. They

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Speaker 1: can make the first bid, then they can sit back

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Speaker 1: let the auction go, and then when the auction's done,

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Speaker 1: they can come in at the very end and be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'll take that, or I won't take that. And then

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Speaker 1: they can also get all of that data so they

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Speaker 1: know what all of their rivals are doing when it

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Speaker 1: comes to these bidding competitions, so that they can then

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Speaker 1: beat them. And then he talks about how they walk

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Speaker 1: away sometimes with up to eighty percent of the ad money.

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Speaker 1: So you publish something, you make a website, people love it,

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Speaker 1: they come and watch. Or you do it, or you

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Speaker 1: make a show over here at YouTube. People like the show,

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Speaker 1: they come and watch it. Advertisers want to reach your audience,

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Speaker 1: so they pay to reach your audience, and then Google

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Speaker 1: sweeps in and takes half or more of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: There's a great quote in the complaint where it says,

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Speaker 1: in effect, Google was robbing from Peter the advertisers to

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Speaker 1: pay Paul the publisher is all well collecting a hefty

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Speaker 1: transaction fee for its own privileged position in the middle.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing the racket that they've been able to build

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Speaker 1: under the nose of regulators. By the way, these were

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Speaker 1: a lot of approved makers as the balance Obambaer was

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Speaker 1: terrible for this. Yeah, right right, no, yes, absolutely, we

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Speaker 1: got two more good counterclips. Let's do be five here. First,

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Speaker 1: a Google employee characterized Google's ad exchange as quote an

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Speaker 1: authoritarian intermediary. Second, a senior Google executive conceded that switching

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Speaker 1: ad servers for publishers is quote a nightmare that quote

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Speaker 1: takes an act of God. Third, a Google employee described

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Speaker 1: the company's scheme to pay publishers three billion yearly by

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Speaker 1: restricting access to Google ads and quote overcharging advertisers. Fourth,

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Speaker 1: a Google manager made it clear that quote our goal

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Speaker 1: should be all or nothing, use Google's ad exchange or

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Speaker 1: don't get access to our advertiser demand. And fifth, a

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Speaker 1: Google executive detailed the company steps to quote dry out rivals.

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Speaker 1: You can see where their confidence is coming from because

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Speaker 1: they have this repeatedly in Google's own words. You gotta

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Speaker 1: love subpoenis. It's so good, And I think it's a

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Speaker 1: very I mean, it's a very substantive complaint. And that

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Speaker 1: comes through with thinking kids had a little swagger there,

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Speaker 1: I would say, in a little swagger because he has

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Speaker 1: them in their own words, right, Because when Google responds,

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Speaker 1: He'm like, well, okay, what do you say to Google? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And he waxed poetic about the role of advertising in

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Speaker 1: a free press and in free expression of ideas toward

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Speaker 1: the end of it, So let's roll this last side.

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Speaker 1: For more than two centuries, advertising in this country has

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Speaker 1: funded newspapers and other avenues of free expression. Revenue from

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Speaker 1: advertising has provided critical support for content creation, the sharing

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Speaker 1: of information, the exchange of viewpoints, which promote a free

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Speaker 1: and vibrant and healthy society. The Anti Trust Division, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so proud of this, has a store read history

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Speaker 1: of safeguarding competition and offline media, from music to broadcasting

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Speaker 1: to publishing. It is now just as important, if not more,

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Speaker 1: to protect competition in the digital marketplace of ideas, where

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Speaker 1: powerful network effects make monopoly power even more durable and harmful,

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Speaker 1: and abuses by companies with monopoly power like Google even

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Speaker 1: more pernicious. It's good stuff. There, you go. That's why

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Speaker 1: this stuff matters, yes, right, Because if you can't that,

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Speaker 1: it leaves you with only a subscription model and without

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Speaker 1: a possibility for an advertising model, which then drives everybody

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Speaker 1: into kind of a niche place. It's nice to be

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Speaker 1: able to have a combination of both of those. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And again, Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, some other attorney

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Speaker 1: attorney's general are in on a similar lawsuit on the

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Speaker 1: state level, a handful of states, kind of a mix

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Speaker 1: of some red and blue. I think Tennessee jumped in

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Speaker 1: on it, filed alongside the DOJ yesterday. So this is

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Speaker 1: a big, big, big case to follow going forward. There's

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Speaker 1: going to be Google's argument will be really I think

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Speaker 1: instructive and helpful to watch them try to defend this

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Speaker 1: in their own words, because it's really indefensible at this point.

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Speaker 1: Break them up, Break them up. Moving on to Georgia,

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Speaker 1: we can put up C one here. Georgia prosecutor is

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Speaker 1: saying that a decision on charges is imminent on whether

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Speaker 1: or not to charge President Donald Trump in the effort

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Speaker 1: to quote find what eleven thousand votes in Georgia or

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Speaker 1: anybody around him who knows which cast of characters the

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Speaker 1: grand the prosecutors may decide to indict. The question is

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Speaker 1: whether or not to release the grand jury report that

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Speaker 1: they produced or not whether to release it, but when

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Speaker 1: at what point to release it? What's your read on this? Right, So,

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Speaker 1: there was a hearing yesterday and that quote about decisions

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Speaker 1: being imminent comes from the Fulton County District Attorney Fanny Williams,

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Speaker 1: who was having to defend not releasing the full report yet,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that actually a bunch of media organizations

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Speaker 1: have come out and so the full report should be

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Speaker 1: released right now. There's been a seven month special grand jury,

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Speaker 1: not regular grand jury, but actual special grand jury investigation.

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Speaker 1: They've interviewed seventy five witnesses I think, including Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 1: and some other folks. And as she was defending the

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Speaker 1: decision not to release that report yet, she came out

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Speaker 1: and said it's because the decision on the charges is imminent,

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Speaker 1: So no full report yet because we're still deciding. And

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Speaker 1: it looks like potentially she's could be pursuing racketeering charges

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Speaker 1: against Trump over election. That's what the probe, the special

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Speaker 1: grand jury probe, was into his election, trying to overturn

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Speaker 1: the results of the Georgia election in twenty twenty. They

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Speaker 1: think they might have him on racketee hearing, which is interesting,

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Speaker 1: and then they need to Williams needs to decide whether

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Speaker 1: she'll seek indictments from a regular grand jury now that

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Speaker 1: the special grand jury report is over. I think this

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Speaker 1: is a weird excuse. The prosecutor say it's quite dangerous

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Speaker 1: to release the full report before the charges are brought.

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Speaker 1: But then again, it might be that they want to

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Speaker 1: bring charges that weren't recommended by the grand jury, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, did not even reach out to Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump for an interview. That's what Trump's lawyers are using

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Speaker 1: as a defense. And what if her resistance to releasing

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Speaker 1: the report is strategic, yes, and she's actually quite fine

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Speaker 1: with it being released. But when it gets released, then

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Speaker 1: she can say, well, the judge forced our hand here.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to have to do this, but now

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Speaker 1: this report is out and there's all this pressure on me.

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Speaker 1: You see the evidence of the crimes. So yeah, we

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Speaker 1: are going forward with the indictments. Do you think that

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Speaker 1: that could possibly be part of the tactic here or

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Speaker 1: do you think that there is really a decision that

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Speaker 1: is imminent? And what does imminent mean? Because that could

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Speaker 1: mean to me and it means like stick around because

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Speaker 1: it's happening any day. Yeah, for prosecutors, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It could mean weeks or months. Well. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: that's the big implication of the story. That's the big

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Speaker 1: news here, that it's Donald Trump being charged with criminal

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Speaker 1: racketeering could be imminent in the state of Georgia. That's

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Speaker 1: obviously this is not an investigation. I think that there's

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Speaker 1: so many investigations into Donald Trump that you can't pay

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Speaker 1: attention to all of them. But this one is one

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Speaker 1: that really has the potential to be a dangerous one.

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Speaker 1: Now she's saying, to your point, quote, we want to

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Speaker 1: make sure that everyone is treated fairly, and we think

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Speaker 1: for future defendants to be treated fairly, it's not appropriate

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Speaker 1: at this time to have the report released. So that's

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Speaker 1: her explanation for why she doesn't think the report should

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Speaker 1: be released because it's about treating defendants fairly, which I

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Speaker 1: don't believe. Actually, I don't think she's really interested in

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Speaker 1: treating defendants fairly, because if she were, I mean, listen,

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Speaker 1: this is from Trump's slays. The grand jury compelled the

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00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: testimony of dozens of other often high ranking official during

429
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: the investigation, but never found it important to speak with

430
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: the president. Therefore, we can assume that the Grand Juriy

431
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: did their job and looked at the facts and the

432
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 1: law as we have and concluded there were no violations

433
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 1: of the law by President Trump. That's an interesting read

434
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: on their decision not to reach out to And prosecutors

435
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: are also not the ones you necessarily want protecting the

436
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: rights of defendants, right, That's not exactly you're going to

437
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: lean on for that. That's why I don't believer. How

438
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,920
Speaker 1: do you think Republicans would respond if they did press

439
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 1: charges here? Well, that's why I think the media, this

440
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: media consortium that's pushing for the report is absolutely right,

441
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: because if there's witness testimony from some folks that shows

442
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: there was some sort of racketeering conspiracy unfolding behind the

443
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: scenes beyond the Trump quotes to Brad Raffensberger that everybody

444
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: is already very familiar with. Sure, maybe there's something there,

445
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: but I think Republicans for the most part, are already

446
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 1: completely on the bandwagon that this is whatever is going on,

447
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: whatever probes are happening in to Donald Trump, it's political

448
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: bottom line, And maybe to your point, that's why the

449
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 1: prosecutor is trying to hold off on something being released

450
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: so she can make the charges then have it released,

451
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: as opposed to it happening the other way around, where

452
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: the report gets released and it's like eh, and then

453
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: she has to make charges. It's more like, okay, I'll

454
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: make the charges, then you can see the report. But

455
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: all anyone's going to care about at that point is

456
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: the charges. For most Democrats that call with Raffensberger, where

457
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: he says, look, just find me the eleven thousand votes

458
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: is enough right there? Like they're like, all right, you're done.

459
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: Like that that's a crime. I could see. I've tried

460
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: to twist myself into a way of finding a way

461
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: that that would not be a crime. And you could

462
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: imagine say both Al Gore or George Bush looking at

463
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,120
Speaker 1: Florida exactly in two thousand and saying, all right, we're

464
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: down by five hundred votes. Find me five hundred votes.

465
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 1: They don't necessarily mean go get a box and stuff

466
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: it with five hundred votes. They mean they could mean

467
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: find a county that you know there are butterfly ballots

468
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: that it could add up to five hundred boats. But

469
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: I think that requires giving Trump so much benefit of

470
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 1: the doubt that nobody can really get themselves there. That

471
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: on the other hand, the reporting from from that period

472
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: and the documentary crew that followed him around, etc. All

473
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: suggests that in his own mind, Yeah, he may have

474
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: actually believed this. And it's George Costanza. That's the George

475
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: Costanza line. If it's not a lie, if you believe it,

476
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: the Costanza defense, the Stanza defense. But yeah, I think

477
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 1: that's right, And I think that's why you don't get

478
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: Republicans eagerly latching onto something like this like, oh, this

479
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: is our opportunity to just give Trump the boot, because

480
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: it's not as clear cut. And we were talking about

481
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: this earlier with the classified documents at Mono Lago and

482
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: why Democrats really wanted to seize on that. It's because

483
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: they constantly are looking for something that's going to be

484
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,479
Speaker 1: the smoking gun, and that call is bad. But again,

485
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: if you're you can imagine a world in which Donald

486
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: Trump really thinks that there are eleven thousand votes out

487
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: there that need to be found and so well, I

488
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: think it's an inappropriate language and inappropriate pressure to apply

489
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: in a situation like that. It's not a clear cut,

490
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: bombshell like piece of wrongdoing to the extent that a

491
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: man who was elected and one nearly fifty percent of

492
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: the vote the second time, he didn't quite get there,

493
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: but nearly beat Joe Biden. The point is he has

494
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: tens of millions of supporters around the country. If you

495
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: want to charge him with criminal conduct, this might not

496
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: be the thing, like this might not be it the

497
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: big one because it's it's still just not that big,

498
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: clearcut thing. But like you said, I think it's a

499
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: good point. We'll see what's in the report if and

500
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: when it does come out. Yeah, that could change. It

501
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: won't change a lot of people's minds, but it could

502
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 1: change some people's minds. Well, who knows. I mean, there

503
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: was crazy, Those were some frenzied times in the Trump

504
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: White House, and who knows what Rudy Giuliani or someone

505
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: else may have said or you know, evidence they may

506
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: have come across. That actually really is even worse than

507
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: that call, which was already bad, but even worse than

508
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: the call. It's entirely possible about pal or somebody like

509
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: trying to rally like the DHS to seize things, seize voting.

510
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: She's and stuff. Yeah, like you could you could see

511
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: something that being like, Okay, you can't do that, right,

512
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: that's a crime, right. But her resistance to releasing it

513
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: tells me there's probably not a bombshell, a real bombshell

514
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: in it, or there is and she wants to like

515
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: reluctantly release it. I think that's a good theory too.

516
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we were hoping to be joined by

517
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: Status Cup reporter Tina desiree Berg to talk about her

518
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: new reporting down in cop City, but she had technical

519
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: difficulties couldn't join us where we wanted to let you

520
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: guys know about it. Anyway, if we could put up

521
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: her her latest dispatch for Status KUP News called inside

522
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: the dangerous domestic terrorism charges against Cop City protesters. I

523
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: think this is something should be concerning to viewers across

524
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: the political spectrum, whether you wholeheartedly support the protesters in

525
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: cop City, which is uh, which is a confrontation in

526
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: Atlanta between police and protesters who are trying to stop

527
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: basically the demolition of a wooded area in order to

528
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: construct a police training center, or if you're completely hostile

529
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: to them and want them all arrested, uh and charge

530
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: and charge with protesting, civil disobedience, whatever it is. Because

531
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're ratcheting up these charges to

532
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: the level of quote unquote domestic terrorism. UH and so

533
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: and Tina, And Tina does already got a number of

534
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: the kind of arrest arrestaurants and police documents related to

535
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: this from the protesters. She was We can roll some

536
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: of her footage from from Saturday. She was there as

537
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: people were getting arrested. But what's what's your what's your

538
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: take on the the domestic terrorism book being thrown at

539
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: the protesters. Yeah, it's definitely interesting. And one of the

540
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: questions I wanted to ask Tina is as you're reading

541
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: the charges. My read on it is that they're trying

542
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: to in order to charge people with domestic terrorism. What

543
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: they're doing is lumping all of these protesters in with

544
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: people who, for instance, have been engaged in violence towards

545
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 1: police and saying, because you're part of this group that

546
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: has been engaging in violence towards police, we're charging you

547
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: with domestic terrorism. You can see on this video, I mean,

548
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: just stunning scenes out of Atlanta. That seems to be

549
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: the argument. It's an interesting argument, especially as you said,

550
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of pushback from the right on

551
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: January six charges, and that has been a real concern

552
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: that's mounted that weaponizing these broad charges and these broad

553
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: labels of domestic terrorism is something that can can certainly

554
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: be abused. And in the cases, as Tina points out,

555
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: the charges for these individuals are not that they themselves

556
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 1: in every case were engaged directly in serious violence so

557
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: much as they were there and breaking the law in

558
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: some where. The other was so we're throwing the book

559
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: at you and saying, because you're part of this group,

560
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: you're a domestic terrorist. Now. I think one interesting thing

561
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: worth noting is that of the arrests. Only one of

562
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: those people was from Georgia. To my knowledge, only one

563
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: of those people was a local. So that's one thing

564
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: I have seen folks on the right focus on is

565
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: the fact that these are all a lot of people

566
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: from out of town. What do you think of that

567
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: read on this? They're conflating or they're lumping everybody in

568
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: saying if you're there and you're part of this group,

569
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: and this group, you know the protester, the activist who

570
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: was tragically shot and killed had a gun, his mother

571
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: has or their mother, I believe the protester is not

572
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: binary has said we don't know why the gun may

573
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: have been there to protect from animals in the forest,

574
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: because that's what's going on here. So that's certainly seems

575
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: plausible to me. But that's what the cops are going

576
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: to use then, to say this is a domestic terrorist group.

577
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: They're armed and targeting police. Right, these are these are right,

578
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: These arrests are coming after the killing of Emmanuel Terran.

579
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: Protests are known as noticea and there's a there's a

580
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: there's a theory that's that's kicked around that that says

581
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: that they did not have a weapon on them. So

582
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: a police officer was was shot and injured. Police returned

583
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: fire killed tord Guita. Uh later, after a very long search,

584
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: found a weapon. Uh right, there is a there is

585
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: What people are saying down there is that they suspect

586
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: somebody else pulled that trigger, but it was not him.

587
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Uh well, I mean shooting is foul play on the

588
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: behalf of the cops that are trying to pin the

589
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: gun to they killed him, they find a gun, they'd

590
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: like to say, okay, well he was the one that

591
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 1: was pulling the trigger. There will be forensics done, so

592
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: we and we good, we should know soon you know

593
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: whether or not there's there's residue. That's something that can

594
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: be you know, demonstrated or not. But your point, your

595
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,360
Speaker 1: point is right on that lumping everybody together is deeply

596
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: on American and there's also an irony to it that

597
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: neoliberalism says that, you know, everybody is an individual ripped

598
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: from community, except when we want to lump you in

599
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: with domestic terrorism charges. Then if you're anywhere near somebody

600
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: else who's doing something that we find criminal, then you

601
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: also then become a criminal. So all of a sudden,

602
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: that we believe in community but just to pull out

603
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: one completely absurd example from Sina Desires reporting, Uh, you

604
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: know one one suspect is charged and this is this

605
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: is from from the charging document. The crime they committed

606
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,720
Speaker 1: was fleeing from Atlanta Police Department. Investigator Ronald Sluss, causing

607
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: injuries to Sluss his right knee and right elbow said,

608
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: injuries being scrapes and cuts. So a person ran and

609
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: you saw the scenes like those are the types of

610
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: scenes that are going on. So somebody is running away

611
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: from this, a cop chases them, falls and gets cuts

612
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: and quote literally this is from their own documents, but

613
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: it gets quote scrapes and cuts on their right knee

614
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: and right elbow, and then charge the person running with

615
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 1: domestic terrorism. We use the word dystopian on this show

616
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: a lot, but we're not overusing it yet because that

617
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 1: what could be more dystopian than that the history of

618
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: the leveling of domestic terrorism charges, I mean what they're

619
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: charging in the document. Again, this is as I'm reading

620
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: the charges and trying to parse what law enforcement is saying,

621
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 1: they really are making that connection between what the group

622
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: is engaged in and then what they can charge the

623
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: individuals with. And as you point out from Tina's report,

624
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 1: in individual cases, there's some really low level stuff that

625
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to qualify as domestic terrorism. And as much

626
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: as except for if you're saying because they're part of

627
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: this group that was engaged in domestic terrorism, et cetera,

628
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: et cetera, than they are guilty by association because they

629
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: were involved in a riot that was domestic terrorism. That

630
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: would be the law enforcement argument. But here's another one

631
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: for you. Possessing road flares of the same style and

632
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: type as have been used to set fires on the

633
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: property and possessing incendiary devices. So possessing road flares is

634
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 1: now crime and not just a crime, but domestic terrorism.

635
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 1: And that's what I was going to ask you is

636
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: do you see this as being in line with the

637
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: history of abusing the domestic terrorism charge maybe Post nine

638
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 1: to eleven in a way that's chilling and attempts to

639
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: chill and silence activities because a lot of the stuff

640
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: that they're charging them with is against the law. Evading

641
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: law enforcement is against the law. Slap a domestic terrorism

642
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: charge on top of it. I wanted to ask you

643
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: what you think about that decision politically, how that kind

644
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: of fits into the history. It does, and it goes

645
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: back to the nineteen nineties. Well, actually, I mean it

646
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: goes back much further than that. You can always take

647
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 1: it back further. But in the nineteen nineties it really

648
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: ramped up with you know, the ALF and ELF you

649
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: remember the Animal Liberation Front, Environmental Liberation Front where they started,

650
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: you know, trying to then you know, slap terrorism charges

651
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: on people who were engaged in civil disobedience that was

652
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: extending into you know, significant proper destruction like burning down

653
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: you know, a ski lodge or something like that. And

654
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: then after two thousand and one, with public support for

655
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: prosecuting terrorism cases at ninety plus percent, that's when the

656
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: United States government really ramped it up and said, oh

657
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: now we can really really drive this home. And they've

658
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: never really let their foot off the gas. I think

659
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: there are really serious concerns of the double standard that's

660
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: applied to over the course of the last few years,

661
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: the Trump years, And that's what I'm talking about specifically.

662
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about in general. I'm just saying this

663
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: is turnd in the last few years, a double standard

664
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: that the media applies to political violence on the left

665
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: and on the right. Which obviously is both wrong, and

666
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: so I do have concerns about double standards from law

667
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: enforcement and for media about that violence. That doesn't mean, though,

668
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: that there aren't distinctions that are well worth maintaining. And

669
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 1: when we have charges on the books that exist to

670
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: add the domestic terrorism charged to people who possess flares

671
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: as opposed to using the flares for violence, which they

672
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: don't seem to have this person on, I still think

673
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 1: that's probably an important distinction. Well, what's your point Today

674
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: we talk about Jeff Bezos, maybe a little Michael Bloomberg billionaires.

675
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: It'll be a little bit a lot of alliteration. I

676
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: promise that's what everyone he watches the show Boyds appreciate it. Yes, Well,

677
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: rumors abound that Jeff Bezos might be selling the Washington

678
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: Post to then buy the Washington Commanders. He can't get

679
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: out of DC. It's amazing. The New York Post reported this. Now,

680
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: the reason that deal would make sense is because he's

681
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: trying basically to sweeten the pot for Dan Snyder, who

682
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: really doesn't like the Washington Post and really doesn't seem

683
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: to like Jeff Bezos by selling the Post, and then

684
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 1: perhaps the theory goes, he'll be able to sell the commanders.

685
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: He'll feel more comfortable selling the commanders to Jeff Bezos.

686
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: That's the New York Post report. There are other rumors

687
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: Axios has reported just last month. I believe that Michael

688
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: Bloomberg is also potentially eyeing the Washington Post. A source

689
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: told Peter king Over at NBC It'll never happen. Dan

690
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: Snyder detests the Washington Post. No way he'd sell to

691
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: the owner of that paper. JP Finlay, also at NBC, tweeted,

692
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: I've had people tell me the Snyder family has absolutely

693
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: no interest in selling to Bezos. Meanwhile, Jeff Bezos, also,

694
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: you may remember, made a big splashy announcement just last

695
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: fall that he's going to be giving one hundred and

696
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars one hundred and twenty billion dollars away

697
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: to charity. Layoff at the Washington Post started just yesterday.

698
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: They started on Tuesday. This is actually is reported on

699
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 1: the plans of an initiative also on Tuesday called quote

700
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: Rebuild Local News. So as the Washington Post is laying

701
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: off these national reporters, there is now a coalition of

702
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: outlets and media groups that have this initiative called Rebuild

703
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: Local News. It's been around for a couple of years,

704
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: but Axios and Sarah Fisher over there reported on the

705
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: initiative to quote deliver approximately three to five billion dollars

706
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: into the local news economy from philanthropy, business, consumers, and

707
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: the government, mostly through tax credits. Now, they say, of

708
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: course not all support would be used to hire retain journalists,

709
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 1: but if a meaningful fraction was local news would be transformed,

710
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: the number of local reporters would likely double. Most local

711
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: news deserts would be eliminated, resulting in a local news

712
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: system more geared to serving communities. That's a big deal. Now,

713
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: I don't really think tax credits for subscriptions to get

714
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: around paywalls and ad bys are going to do as

715
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: much as this group thinks that they're going to do.

716
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: Those are all part of the proposal. It's a package

717
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: of a bunch of different proposals that comes together in

718
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: this big, sweeping plan to rebuild local news. As their

719
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: name says, I'm not sure that that stuff is going

720
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: to be some as powerful as they think. There are

721
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: some steps like changing the way you can apply to

722
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: be a tax exempt nonprofit news organization via the irs.

723
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: That's a good thing of scrutinizing media mergers with localism

724
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: in mind also a very good thing and also could

725
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: be very powerful. But think about this. The group is

726
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: predicting three to five billion dollars could double double the

727
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: number of local reporters. The number of local reporters three

728
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: to five billion. Bezos bought the Post for two hundred

729
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: and fifty million back in twenty thirteen. The paper was

730
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,239
Speaker 1: actually going to lose money last year per calculations back

731
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two, but they have been profitable in

732
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 1: years since Bezos bought the paper. In other words, they

733
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 1: don't need Jeff Bezos as much as local media needs

734
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and needs that money now. It should if

735
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 1: it is given, come with no strings attached, of course,

736
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 1: so that you don't have billionaires pulling the strings of media. Ideally,

737
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 1: that's not the healthiest media ecosystem to have. That you

738
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: can see how these numbers just do the math. They're

739
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: saying three to five billion could totally revitalize local news,

740
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: could double the number of local reporters. If Bezos or

741
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: Michael Bloomberg who are looking at the Post really care

742
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: about journalism and democracy and charity. They'd funnel some of

743
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: their money to local media with no strings attached. Why.

744
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 1: I mean, some local outlets are great, some are just

745
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: as awful and biased as the Washington Post before and

746
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: after they had sort of been gutted by changes in

747
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,840
Speaker 1: technology and the economy. But you should rather have biased

748
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: eyes on our public affairs than no eyes at all.

749
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 1: What happens in the darkness, as Washington Post might say,

750
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: is that democracy falters and democracy dies. And that's a

751
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: really serious problem, and we've seen examples of that that

752
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: we're going to get into in just a bit. But

753
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: consumers have also woken up to the problem with bias,

754
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,280
Speaker 1: and so I think that's that's slight a slight improvement. Anyway,

755
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: if you're going into your local newspaper and you know

756
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 1: exactly how biased it is, you can sort of appreciate

757
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: the reporting and interpret it with that lens of knowing

758
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: that it's biased. So why, of all charities in the

759
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: world is local media worthy of money? Corruption, as we

760
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: just said, is metastasizing and festering without it. We've seen

761
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: example after example of this. National media is fanning the

762
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: flames of division. There's actual academic research showing that the

763
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: death of local news is tied to the rise in

764
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: division school board decisions. For instance, this is a really

765
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: great example that could have been dealt with after they

766
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: were brought to light by a local media coverage, are

767
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: now immediately going viral and becoming fodder in a national

768
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 1: culture war in ways that just explodes local communities, makes

769
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: them way more bitter and divisive. And again, if you'd

770
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: had a local news reporter who knows all of the

771
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: players in these hearings, the ecosystem would have been functioning

772
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: way more healthily. That's why, for instance, look at George Santos.

773
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,320
Speaker 1: This is a great example George Santos. A local outlet

774
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 1: called The North Shore Leader with a Republican partisan Republican publisher,

775
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: by the way, was calling attention to inconsistent inconsistencies in

776
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: Santos's story during his campaign. No other local outlets picked

777
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: up on the story, nor did national media. The publisher

778
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: told PBS that that might have been because it was

779
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: a busy cycle and people were distracted by bigger races,

780
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: so it stayed in just this one local outlet that

781
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 1: many voters may have missed, rather than getting pick up

782
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 1: from other outlets in the community. As the publisher told PBS,

783
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: though quote, nobody else covers local news and local communities

784
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: like the local newspaper does. Again, you might hate your

785
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 1: local newspaper, or you may have hated it when it

786
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: existed ten years ago, but without any eyes on all

787
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,320
Speaker 1: of these goings on, public officials are corrupt, right because

788
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: they know they can get away with it. They know

789
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: they're not going to have to answer to the local reporter.

790
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: They just might have to answer to somebody on the

791
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: national beat on some major story, but on the little things,

792
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: on the tiki taki stuff, they're not going to have

793
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: to answer to anybody because nobody is following it, except

794
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: in the case where their constituents might have time or

795
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: interest in following it. But that's not everyone, and that's

796
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: not every issue. There are all kinds of small things

797
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: that happen in local government, that happen in local school boards,

798
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 1: that happen from public officials, that create these that create

799
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: major problems. And when you don't have the eyes of

800
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,919
Speaker 1: the press in the community, even if you hate the press,

801
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: the reason that it's important to improve the press, to

802
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: fix the press, whether you believe in challenging it through

803
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: outlets like this, or you know, trying to improve other

804
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: the existing institutions, which feels like a losing battle at

805
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: this point. It needs to be improved because it's an

806
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: essential part of the way we function as a constitutional republic.

807
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: Without the press, without a free press, corruption runs amok,

808
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 1: and so on the local level, that's a hugely, hugely

809
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 1: important issue. It's very worthy of charity, it's very worthy

810
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: of people's money. If they're going to give money away,

811
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: maybe they should help, you know, local papers develop sustainable plans.

812
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: If you're sort of funneling billions of dollars into local papers, Okay,

813
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: sustainable plans would be very helpful. We all know that

814
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos and Michael Bloomberg own major national media outlets

815
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 1: for reasons other than charity, right, We know Jeff Bezos

816
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: doesn't own the Washington Post to save democracy from the darkness.

817
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: But it would take just a fraction a fraction of

818
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: their wealth to utterly transform local news, and that would

819
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: go a shockingly is shockingly long way towards transforming our

820
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: politics for the better. Speaking of extremely wealthy people and

821
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: corporations that may not be the most sympathetic cases, but

822
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:21,320
Speaker 1: our instructive ones. Nonetheless, what's your counterpoint today, Ryan Taylor Swift.

823
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: So yesterday the Judiciary Committee convened the first hearing of

824
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: the year, where senators bombarded witnesses with Taylor Swift quotes.

825
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: To have a strong capitalist system, you have to have competition.

826
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: You can't have too much consolidation, something that unfortunately for

827
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: this country. As a ode to Taylor Swift, I will

828
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 1: say we know all too well. The focus was on

829
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: Live Nation's abusive monopoly practices. And here's Clyde Lawrence of

830
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: Lawrence the Band laying some of that out. There's literally

831
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 1: not been a single time in our career when we've

832
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: played at a Live Nation venue where we had any

833
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: opportunity to not have Live Nation be the promoter, or

834
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,280
Speaker 1: not have Ticketmaster be the ticketing company, and the seat

835
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: Geek CEO was on hand to explain how all of

836
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: this works. Because Live Nation controls the most popular entertainers

837
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: in the world, routes most of the large cores, operates

838
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: the taking systems, and even owns many of the venues.

839
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: This power over the entire live entertainment industry allows Live

840
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: Nation to maintain its monopolistic influence over the primary ticketing market.

841
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 1: As long as Live Nation remains both the dominant concert

842
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: promoter and ticketer of major venues in the US, the

843
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: industry will continue to lack competition and struggle. There was

844
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 1: also plenty of lying in real time fact checking. Here's

845
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz questioning the Live Nation president. How about on

846
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: the ticketing side, what percent of the market you'll have?

847
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: I would estimate, depending on how you want to count,

848
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: what's in the market between fifty and sixty percent fifty

849
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: and sixty And depending on how you count it, does

850
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: anyone have a markedly different measure of that? Yes, sir, yes, senator,

851
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: they could. They have eighty seven percent of the ticketing

852
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: contracts at the NBA and the NHL arenas, they have

853
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: ninety three percent of the ticketing contracts at the NFL stadiums.

854
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 1: And of course there were more and more Taylor Swift lines.

855
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:22,280
Speaker 1: I have to throw out, in difference to my daughter Eliza,

856
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: one more Taylor Swift quote. Karma's a relaxing thought. Aren't

857
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: you envious? That? For you? It's not. That's all I've

858
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,359
Speaker 1: got to say, thank you, all right, So, and I'm

859
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 1: not going to punish the audience with many more of them.

860
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 1: But it was just all day long. Any Clobachar jumped

861
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: in on the fone right right out of the gate,

862
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 1: didn't Bloomenthal of course, all of them, Yeah, every single

863
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: one had to do it now to start with, of

864
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: course this is excellent, my Ticketmaster Live Nation. Destroy them,

865
00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:56,600
Speaker 1: fire them into the sun, break them, up, them out.

866
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: They're the worst. But what's amazing is you know who

867
00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: agrees with that is big Tech. So after the after

868
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 1: the election, uh uh, And I got this email that

869
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: was sent out by net Choice, which is the I

870
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: got to say email and immediately forwarded to Rachel Beauvart. Yes,

871
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 1: and so here here's what net Choice suggested to Congress

872
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: right after the election, and this one that jumped out

873
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: at you too. Congress and progressives like Amy Klobuchar are

874
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: spending all this time going after tech leaders, including Meta, Google, Amazon,

875
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: and Apple, which are far from monopolies. Instead, the government

876
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: should use existing laws and resources to protect consumers and

877
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:40,800
Speaker 1: investigate ticketmasters anti competitive practices in the concert marketplace, like literally,

878
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: yes literally telling Congress to go after Ticketmaster and not them.

879
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: And and there's a reason for this too, So what

880
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: and they They elaborated on this argument yesterday in a

881
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: statement kind of celebrating the ticketmaster was under the gun,

882
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: basically said, and it goes back to this consumer welfare

883
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 1: stand which is, you know, for forty years has been

884
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: the way that we kind of do anti trust policy,

885
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: which says that as long as a consumer is benefiting,

886
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: like as long as you can't identify particular price increases,

887
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: then it doesn't matter if they control one hundred percent

888
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,399
Speaker 1: of the market and they're abusing everybody else in the market,

889
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: their suppliers, other customers, et cetera. As long as the

890
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: consumer is doing okay, then it's fine. And so what

891
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 1: Big Tech is saying is they are clearly in violation

892
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: of anti trust law based on the consumer welfare standard.

893
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: So go after them and don't change the laws, the

894
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: anti trust laws to reinterpret what it means to be

895
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 1: a monopoly, because what Big Tech has said is that, okay,

896
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,240
Speaker 1: Google is not a monopoly when it comes to search

897
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 1: because it's free to do search. Google is not a

898
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: monopoly when it comes to ad tech because it's free

899
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: for the consumer to read these news outlets. Is it

900
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 1: a problem that, hey, we're ripping off everybody in the

901
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: back end and kind of restructuring the culture and the

902
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 1: economy doesn't matter because it doesn't violate the consumer welfare standard.

903
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: Don't worry about it, right, exactly, don't worry about it.

904
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: Go after Listen to Taylor Swift, go after Ticketmaster instead.

905
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: It's also it doesn't technically technically violate the consumer welfare

906
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: standard by their argument. In some ways, I think you

907
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: can probably show how it does, right, you could, Yeah,

908
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: And I thought it's harder. Ted Cruise's question was really

909
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 1: good there, because that's one way these companies get around

910
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: it is they create these BS calculations by their own metrics,

911
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: and then when you ask about specific individual cases like

912
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,879
Speaker 1: the NHL, for instance, as the other witness brought up,

913
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: you can see this is a joke. I think he said, like,

914
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 1: what eighty seven percent of NHL stadium venue agreements. I mean,

915
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: that's insane and definitely not good for consumers. Right, So

916
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 1: it might be true that it's Division III college basketball arenas.

917
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: You can just walk up to the window and buy

918
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 1: a ticket, or you know, if you're going for a

919
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: drag Queen story hour at the local library, Ticketmaster Ticketmaster. Right,

920
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: it's free and it's it's not a live Nation Ticketmaster

921
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: event you can just walk right in. So therefore we

922
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: only really control fifty to sixty percent your Thanksgiving dinner

923
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: for instance. Yeah, didn't use ticket Master for that. Yeah, right,

924
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: So clearly we're not a monopoly over events. No, you're

925
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: the point that you just made from the Netrocee email,

926
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 1: which is so funny because we didn't talk about this

927
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 1: before at all. But I also thought it was a

928
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: funny email. It's like they're saying, don't change the law.

929
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: The law works, just go after the people who are

930
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: violating the actual law. Take that, like, let's let's use

931
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: this as the most clear cut, instructive example about why

932
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: the consumer welfare standard works to regulate monopolies. Leave us

933
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: alone because we're not in violation of it. That's one

934
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: thing that's always funny about government regulations is that a

935
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: lot of the other big players really love to see

936
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 1: it right because they know it'll put the smaller guys out,

937
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: Like they'll lobby for more regulation. Tim Carney has a

938
00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:08,399
Speaker 1: great book called The Big Ripoff that you can read

939
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: on this. They lobby over and over again for more

940
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: regulation because it ultimately works out better for them In

941
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: this case, it's two big guys debating whether it's Ticketmaster

942
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: or Facebook, Google, Meta whatever it is, debating over this regulation.

943
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: But so funny and frankly they're not half wrong, Like

944
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,879
Speaker 1: they ought to crack down on Ticketmaster like big Tech

945
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,319
Speaker 1: and Titus with there both right, they should, but that's

946
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: not a reason to just let Google off the hook.

947
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: Do you think they want to sell tickets on Facebook? Oh,

948
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure they would actually Google, And I'm sure Google

949
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: and Facebook would love to get into the ticket space business.

950
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: You know what, I bet artists would love it if

951
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 1: all of them were in the business. Yeah. Well, speaking

952
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 1: of the potential for censorship, we'll be talking about a

953
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 1: pretty incredible case out of India after this. Twitter and

954
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: YouTube have censored a BBC documentary that was critical of

955
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: Indian Prime Minister Nerandra Mody, raising all sorts of questions

956
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: about the role of big tech increasing authoritarian societies as

957
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 1: well as now the biggest democracy in the world in India.

958
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,720
Speaker 1: And so for a little bit of backstory, Conscian Gupta,

959
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: who is his title, is a senior advisor of the

960
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: Indian government's Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. He posted that

961
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 1: this BBC documentary that looks into Mody's role in the

962
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,800
Speaker 1: Gujarat Masacer back in two thousand and two is quote

963
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 1: a hostile propaganda and anti Indian garbage unquote, and said

964
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: that the Indian government under Indian under new Indian kind

965
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:52,360
Speaker 1: of anti free press laws, had asked Twitter and YouTube

966
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,799
Speaker 1: to take down links to the documentary as well as

967
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 1: the documentary itself, as well as any commentary kind of

968
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: around it, and that both Twitter under Elon Musk and

969
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:08,720
Speaker 1: YouTube owned by Google had complied with this. Some members

970
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: of Indian members of parliament even had their tweets taken down. Amusingly,

971
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,320
Speaker 1: well I put that in quotes, two John Cusack tweets

972
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: were blocked in India. You can still see the John

973
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:22,399
Speaker 1: Cusack tweets here in the United States and around the world,

974
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: but Indian audiences would be blocked from seeing them. A

975
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: number of Indian members of Parliament attempted to pot to

976
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: get around it by posting links to the Internet Archive,

977
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 1: and rather shockingly, the Internet Archive took it down, so

978
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: you couldn't even go through that way. They're now left

979
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: to a telegram audio channel, basically the only way an

980
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: Indian audience can now hear this documentary is through a

981
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: telegram channel. So Elon Musk free speech absolutist, but he

982
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: has waffled on what his definition of free speech is

983
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: relative to local laws. So what do you make of this,

984
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: this latest development from Musk. I think it's a very

985
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 1: big test for Elon Musk that so far is not

986
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: going well. And you have a big story on that

987
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,439
Speaker 1: exact question right now. What this tells us about how

988
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: Elon Musk is looking at the platform. Ken Clippenstein tweeted

989
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: about this, and Jack Dorsey liked Ken's tweet about your story.

990
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,960
Speaker 1: That sounds kind of meta. Jack is liking Ken's tweet

991
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 1: about a Ryan Grimm's story. But I think it shows

992
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 1: that there's some This is a there's some dubious decisions

993
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: happening at Twitter headquarters, helmed by a suppose of free

994
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: speech apple salutist that does have a lot of foreign

995
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: business ties, lucrative foreign business ties, and all kinds of

996
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: different pots on the stove. And for the reasons you've

997
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: been raising over the course of the last year, basically

998
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: since Musk flirted with buying Twitter first, this could be

999
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,480
Speaker 1: a real problem for him, right because he has all

1000
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 1: of these his other companies have these other you know,

1001
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: they're other goals that the Tesla has been trying to

1002
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: get into the Indian market. And I was, I was

1003
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 1: thinking this morning. I was like, man, I wish Emily

1004
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: were kind of a more doctionnaire, just straight up musk

1005
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: defender so that I could do. And I told you

1006
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: so here. But you you've been you know, you've been

1007
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: skeptical of musks approached in foreign countries for this exact reason,

1008
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: China in particular. But he had already failed the test

1009
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: in China before he took over Twitter by doing a

1010
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:30,439
Speaker 1: red carpet ceremony in Shinjong when the Tesla factory opened there.

1011
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: We're really lucky actually to have a guest who can

1012
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: weigh in on this today. The documentary, by the way,

1013
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 1: BBC documentary is called India the Modi Question, and we're

1014
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: going to hear more about it right now. And so

1015
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: Rakeip Nayak is a is an Indian journalist who's been

1016
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: who's been covering this situation. Rakeev Uh, thanks thanks for

1017
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: joining us. Can can you talk to us a little

1018
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: bit about the relationship between the Modi government and big

1019
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: tech companies over the years, because this is certainly not

1020
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: the first time that the Modi government has kind of

1021
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: pressured Silicon Valley to censor critics or to censor news reports.

1022
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: But it does seem like some type of a line

1023
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: was crossed here. That seems like it was kind of

1024
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: the most well, I'll let you speak, because there was

1025
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,120
Speaker 1: even a raid by police of Twitter headquarters previously. So

1026
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: to say that this crossed a new line and setting

1027
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: that aside might be wrong. But how are people in

1028
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: India responding to this? Yeah? Definitely, I mean Indian Prime

1029
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: Minister neither mood He has used his emergency powers to

1030
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 1: block access to the BBC documented in India. And I mean,

1031
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: as you ask, I mean, this is not the first

1032
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: time that such kind of a crackdown on the content

1033
00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:55,360
Speaker 1: Poston and social media has happened in India. It has

1034
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: been happening and exacerbating all the past nine years under

1035
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: his rule. But definitely, the way mister Moody's handling the

1036
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: whole fiasco right now is unprecedented. And this is a

1037
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,600
Speaker 1: direct attack on press and directly why leads freedom of

1038
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: expression and the right to information. And I mean, see,

1039
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: we need to see this desperation to censor the documentary

1040
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: in a broader context, which is the G twenty summit

1041
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 1: that is upcoming later this year, and mister Moody's using

1042
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: this is an opportunity to ball through his image both

1043
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 1: nationally and internationally and is spending big money to get

1044
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: favorable courage. But that momentum has been disrupted by the

1045
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 1: sudden release of this documentary that has rightly put the

1046
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: much needed spotlight on his murderer's past, and his information

1047
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: ministry has sent over hundreds of requests to different social

1048
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: media platforms like YouTube and Twitter to censor and withhold

1049
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:02,080
Speaker 1: posts with videos and links to the documentary, and unfortunately,

1050
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: the so called flag bearers of free speech like Musk

1051
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: or caving to the pressure and complying with the government order.

1052
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: And honestly, I wonder if Mosk's free speech absolutism was

1053
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,919
Speaker 1: meant only for the global North and the for right

1054
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 1: and not the countries in the global South. But it's

1055
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: not surprising to me his focus on making quick profits

1056
01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:32,400
Speaker 1: at Twitter makes it very vulnerable to pleasing the Indian

1057
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,919
Speaker 1: government as the country is one of the biggest markets

1058
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: for social media company and it's not just Musk. Right now,

1059
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: before Facebook has done the same and over the years

1060
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,480
Speaker 1: they are allowing platforming of hate speech and hate speeches

1061
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 1: on their platforms that target country's religious minorities, especially Christians

1062
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 1: and Muslims. And some of our viewers may not know

1063
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: much about the Gujarat massacre. Can you talk a little

1064
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: bit about what that was and what the documentary exposes

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01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:08,720
Speaker 1: as Modi's role in it. So Ryan, what happened on

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01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: February twenty seven, two thousand and two was that a

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01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 1: train filled with Hindu devotees was passing through Godra town

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01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: in Gujarat State when it caught fire and led to

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01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 1: death of fifty nine people, and the Hindu parade groups

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01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 1: and the state government immediately put the blame on Muslims,

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01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:29,080
Speaker 1: which was later disputed by an Indian government investigation in

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01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and five that said that the fire was

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01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: an accident not caused by Muslims. Nonetheless, the accusitions were

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01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:40,040
Speaker 1: enough for the star of an anti Muslim violence which

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01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 1: resulted in killing of more than two thousand Muslim men,

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01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: women and children and displacement of another two hundred thousand people.

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01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: And the BBC documentary on Prime Mister Moody is a

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01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: damning piece of journalism that looks at his that looks

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01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: at what mister Mody really is, a bigot who has

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01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 1: built his political career on fanning anti Muslim hate, bigotry

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01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,280
Speaker 1: and violence. And to be honest, Ryan, what has been

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01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: told in BBC documentary is already known across India since

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01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 1: two thousand and two. But the new piece of information

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01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: that this documentary adds is the findings of an inquiry

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01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: conducted by the United Kingdom government right off the riots,

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01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 1: which without ifs and butts, holds Narindermodi, the primester of

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01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: world's so called largest democracy, directly responsible for slaughter of

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01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: thousands of Muslims and it was all pre planned. The

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01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 1: report says. I'm quoting from the United Kingdom's own report

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01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: that on one pretext or the other, the Hindu extreme

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01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: is led by militant groups like Wish were in the

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01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,720
Speaker 1: parishid were going to attack the Muslims. They had computerized

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01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,560
Speaker 1: lists of Muslim homes and businesses they were supposed to target,

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01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: and which is quite telling of the fact that the

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01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: government officials were aiding it. There was widespread and systematic

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01:04:00,440 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: use of rape as a weapon to target Muslim woman

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01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: and to put it precisely. It was a mini Rwandan

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01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: genocide which had the seal of mister Moody. And there

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01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 1: were police officers who filed afidevit before the Supreme Court

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01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 1: saying that he gave explicit orders to police not to

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01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: act and let the Hindus rent their anger. And in

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01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: retribution furious back, mister Mody jailed one of those police

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01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: officers under under bogus charges. And I mean it's also

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01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: important to talk about the victims of the Gujrat two

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01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 1: thousand and two. Their wounds are still fresh. I have

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01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: met the victims just this past October. I met one

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01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,439
Speaker 1: of them who had to take asylum in the UK,

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01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 1: and the whole Indian judicial system has miserably failed them.

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01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:54,320
Speaker 1: Just yesterday, a court in Gujrat acquitted twenty two Hindu

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01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: extremists accused of killing seventeen Muslims, including two children. And

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01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 1: this past August, mister Mody's Home Ministry shamefully gave a

1112
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: go ahead to the premature release of eleven extremists who

1113
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 1: were serving life sentences for brutally gang raping a pregnant

1114
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 1: Muslim woman and killing fourteen of her family members, including

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01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: her two year old daughter. During the violence, and not

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01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 1: just that, even activist activists spearheading the legal fight for

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01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 1: justice and holding mister Mody to account were thrown in

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01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: jail after Indian Supreme Court in June twenty twenty two

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01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: cleared mister Modia of complicity by ruling that there was

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01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 1: no evidence against him. But Ryan, one thing I do

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01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: want to make clear is that this documentary is also

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01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,439
Speaker 1: a stock reminder to the world that the person who

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Speaker 1: they think can usher the so called world's largest democracy

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01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: in prosperity or turn it into a global power is

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01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: a myth because politicians with blood of inn since citizens

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01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: on their hand, can only do one thing that is oppressed,

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01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: divide and rule, and that's what mister Moody in India

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01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 1: is doing today. Kiep. But I want to pick up

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01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: on one thing you said, which is a lot of

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01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,200
Speaker 1: the Modi's involvement in the riots back in two thousand

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01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 1: and two is pretty widely understood and known in India.

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01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 1: So how then does this censorship decision, which is getting

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01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 1: international headlines and his big news here in the United States,

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01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 1: how does that play in Indian politics? Does that change

1135
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: modis standing? Is it a sort of political net benefit

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01:06:33,200 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: or a net disadvantage for him and not lost for him.

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01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: Just on a purely political level, How does this affect

1138
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: his political standing in India? I think it won't affect

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01:06:46,160 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: him politically because right now he has a strong loyal base.

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01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,280
Speaker 1: And in twenty fourteen, when he was he was brought

1141
01:06:54,280 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: into power, it was because of his mother's past years

1142
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 1: of his Islamophobic past. He was he was taken into power,

1143
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: he was brought to power. But but I think definitely

1144
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: it will create a lot of noise internationally and within

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01:07:11,720 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 1: the country from the minorities, from the religious minorities, and

1146
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 1: from the victims who who who are still waiting for

1147
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 1: a still waiting for justice. But I don't think it

1148
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: is going to be a disadvantage for him politically. Uh.

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01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: But but as long as far as his support basis concern, Uh,

1150
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 1: they are more emboldened, they are more I think they're

1151
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:38,959
Speaker 1: they're they're happy about what they see in the documentary

1152
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: because this is this is what their ideology of hin Hindutwa,

1153
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 1: Hindu supremacism stands for. That is anti Muslim hate and

1154
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:50,920
Speaker 1: bigetri Well Rockley, that's you know, incredibly important context, uh

1155
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: for these the dystopian decisions made by Musk, Twitter and

1156
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 1: Google's YouTube to censor this information. I appreciate you joining

1157
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: us today and that does it for us today, and

1158
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: we got anything else. I was gonna say once again,

1159
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:06,479
Speaker 1: there was sort of a through line, and we didn't

1160
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: do it intentionally, but of creeping authoritarianism on a global level,

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01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: not just an indeply dystopian stuff, deeply dystopian stuff that's

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01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: happening from a collection of people who operate globally. Right,

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01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:21,040
Speaker 1: So not just censorship in the US or censorship in India,

1164
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: but people in the US helping for them to be

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01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 1: censorship in India of a documentary out of the UK. Right.

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01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: And if people think that, well, I don't care about India.

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01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: So you know, if the Indians want to change the

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01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: Indian laws, then they can change Indian laws, not my problem.

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01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: Musk shouldn't be criticized for this. I think people need

1170
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: to understand that we're a connected world and the same

1171
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: kind of corporate power currents and the same political currents

1172
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: that are coursing through India are also coursing through the

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01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: United States. And if you think that you can allow

1174
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 1: the collapse of democracy and freedom of expression in India

1175
01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: and it will not bleed back into the United States.

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01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 1: I think you're mistaken. I think you should care about

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01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: the right of Indians to freely express themselves and to

1178
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 1: share whatever information they want for its own right on

1179
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:12,799
Speaker 1: its own grounds. But if you don't, you should understand

1180
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: that it's going to come home at some point too.

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01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:17,759
Speaker 1: And that's why the DOJ lawsuit that we covered earlier

1182
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: in the show against Google is so important. That's why

1183
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,799
Speaker 1: reigning in the abuse of the classification labels is so important.

1184
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: A quote from Rand Paul, he said, I haven't actually

1185
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 1: been to a classified hearing where I actually thought I

1186
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:29,960
Speaker 1: heard a secret. He said that just last night, and

1187
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,280
Speaker 1: I saw the quote and wanted to bring that because

1188
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 1: I think it all gets to the overarching theme of

1189
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:41,839
Speaker 1: how people are using national security implications to abuse public

1190
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,160
Speaker 1: trust and to abuse the system. And they're doing it

1191
01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 1: not just in the United States, but, as you said,

1192
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 1: on an interconnected global level. So we'll obviously continue to

1193
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: watch that theme as it develops on a daily basis.

1194
01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 1: We will, all right, and we'll see you next time.