WEBVTT - How A Professional Writer Turned Herself Into A World Class Poker Player 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.880 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.079 I'm Joe Wisntal and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, So you 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:23.720 guys are going into hard lockdown again in Hong Kong. Yeah, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:28.440 we are. We're experiencing our third wave of coronavirus and 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:33.080 unfortunately it's worse than the first and second waves. So yeah, 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.080 we're going back into social distancing measures. People are being 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.480 told to work from home, bars are closed, and restaurants 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.240 are implementing new restrictions. So yep, back to lockdown. So 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.240 obviously this is all getting pretty tiresome. I think people 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.879 are ready for real life to resume. But there's actually 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.320 one well there's a few aspects of lockdown life that 0:00:56.440 --> 0:00:59.200 I kind of prefer, but there's one thing in particular 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.480 that I and to be better. You know what it is? Yeah, 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.440 I think I do. I think I've actually done it 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:09.440 with you a couple of months ago. Oh yeah, yes, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.160 I find playing poker online with friends to be much 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.039 better than playing poker, uh in real life with friends. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:20.840 I'm not sure poker is a better game online period, 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:23.840 but at least unlike a sort of social version, I 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:27.319 much prefer like playing in a room with a zoom 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:31.600 chat going on than actually like gathering around a table 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.399 with friends and playing poker. Wait, You're going to have 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.640 to explain that, because I thought poker, you know, when 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:39.400 people play on a casual level like that, it's supposed 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.039 to be a social activity. You're not supposed to like 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.960 doing it via zoom chat. Well I get that, and 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.000 so I think that's maybe it's because of a little 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:52.360 bit anti social or something like that. But normally, when 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.160 I've played poker among friends or casually, people start talking 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.720 about sports and they that flows down the dealing, and 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.880 a really care about those conversas sports, or like someone 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.560 or someone is like, oh, let's order pizza and they 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.920 bring up to the table or chips and I'm like, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.679 come on, like let's just deal, or like someone gets distracted, 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.160 they start telling a story while they're dealing. That gets 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:19.920 really annoying. With the zoom chat in the you know, 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.280 the online poker room, you can have all that stuff. 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.960 You can still people having a name conversations or getting 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.360 up for a snack, but it doesn't slow down the 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:29.959 game at also have all you want to do is 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.679 focus on the cards. Actually think it's a better experience. Well, 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.440 I have a question how much does doing poker via 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:40.680 zoom help when it comes to actual strategy and for instance, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:43.440 hiding your tells. Is that the reason you like it 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.080 because maybe when you're playing in person, everyone knows what 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.400 you're thinking, and when you're on zoom, it's much easier 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:52.760 to hide your motivations. Well, let's time I was playing 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:55.280 with a friend who was wearing glasses and I thought 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.200 I could almost make out his whole cards in the 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.640 reflection of his glasses. I couldn't, and that you know 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.040 that would be unethical, But you know, I do think 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.480 that's the thing. And I've noticed myself on the videos, 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.160 like when I'm like, oh shoot, I'm really like leaning 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.320 back at my chair here, I'm really staring. I wonder 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:13.920 if people can you know I'm giving it away. I 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:16.840 haven't played enough to like figure out patterns, but if 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.160 I were to play enough with zoom uh calls, you know, 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.200 you would probably start to notice. I gotta say so. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.000 I don't think it's a secret to all lots listeners 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.560 that I am not a big poker fan or player, 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.440 but when I do play, I find it much much 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.440 more enjoyable when it's with actual people, and I think 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:38.080 it's much more interesting to try to look at the 0:03:38.120 --> 0:03:41.640 psychological aspect of it all versus just the cards and 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:46.760 doing the maths, which feels like what Zoom is mostly about. Yeah, no, 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.440 I hear that, And actually I think without the Zoom 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.360 it could get a little boring. And I think poker 0:03:51.400 --> 0:03:53.280 in general, even though I really enjoy it as a 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:54.880 game or as a sport or whatever you want to 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.560 call it, it can be boring and you just have 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.440 long stretches of doing nothing, and the attempt to create 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:05.600 action to create excitement can often be very costly. So 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.760 I certainly am sympathetic to the view that it's more 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:13.440 enjoyable in real life with actual people. Yeah, people definitely 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.000 seem to do stupid things when they're playing the online 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.520 games just to sort of whoa, just because they can. 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.520 But anyway, um, so I take it we are doing 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:25.360 a poker episode. Yeah, it's been a long time since 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.960 we've done a poker episode, but I'm really excited about 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.400 the one today because we're gonna be talking to an 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.840 author of a new book, and unlike some of our 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:40.120 previous guests who are professional online poker, longtime professional poker players. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:44.120 Our new guest is sort of relatively new to the 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:48.560 upper echelons of the game. Oh that sounds great. I'm 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.200 always well as someone who came to it, um relatively recently. 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:56.400 I am always interested to hear what other people think 0:04:56.400 --> 0:04:58.839 of the game and how they're strategizing around it and 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:03.120 actually playing. Yeah, I'm looking forward to learning some lessons. 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.719 Our guest today is Maria Kannakova. She used to be 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:11.080 a writer at The New Yorker and uh now she 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.839 is a professional poker player and she is the author 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.240 of the Biggest Bluff How I learned to pay attention, 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.680 master myself and win. And she decided one day to 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.760 be a poker success and she became one, which is 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.400 extremely impressive. So, Maria, thank you very much for joining us. 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.760 Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.440 So you just decided one day, you're like I am 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.520 going to be a great poker player, and you just 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:40.279 will yourself and trained yourself and you became one. You 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:42.920 actually just manufactured it and made it happen. Is that 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:48.600 is that accurate? Um? Not entirely, Not entirely. UM. I 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.440 was someone like like you, Tracy, who had zero interest 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.120 in poker whatsoever. I'm not a games player. I have 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.279 no interesting games like any of them for my In 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.679 my free time, I like to read and do things 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.320 like that. I've never grown up in a household. I 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.240 don't even think we had a deck of cards, and 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.880 definitely no board games. Um they bore me. And I 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.560 think the scariest thing that my niece and nephew can 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.520 do is take out travelers of Katan. I just I 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.160 start having a panic attack right away, thinking, Oh, no, 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:20.799 are we actually going to have to play this? So 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.719 so that's not my world at all. I wanted to 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.440 write a book about luck, about the role that chance 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:28.479 plays in our lives, but to do so in a 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:31.560 more systematic way, to try to figure out, Okay, can 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.920 we learn to tell the difference between the things that 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.400 we can control and the things we can't control? Can 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.159 we learn to figure out where skill ends and where 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.920 chance begins? And I needed a way into that topic, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.880 and I actually found one through one of the great 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:52.119 geniuses of the twentieth century, John von Neuman. I turned 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.520 to him because he's the father of game theory, and 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:58.400 I wanted to look at that framework for looking at chance. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.200 And it turns out that von Neuman was a poker 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.839 player and that game theory is actually based on poker. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.159 That man Neuman believed that poker was the game that 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:14.040 best resembled strategic decision making in real life, because real life, 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.440 unlike a lot of games like chess, like go um, 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.040 which are games of complete information where you can actually 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.000 see the entire board, you can see all the pieces, 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:25.280 you can figure out the right move, and you can 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.400 compute what the right decision is, that's not real life. 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:30.840 Real life is a game with a lot of unknowns, 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:33.080 with a lot of uncertainty, with a lot of ambiguity. 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.880 And that's what poker is. And so von Neuman believed 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.480 that if you could actually solve poker, then you'd have 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.080 the key to some of the most complex strategic decisions 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.920 in reality. Um. And at the time, the guy was 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:49.080 working on the hydrogen bomb, so so he really knew 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.280 what he was talking about. He was at the highest 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:56.800 echelons of governmental advising on strategy. This really really intrigued man. 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.240 I thought, Oh, what is this poker thing? You know, 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.920 I am really don't know what it is. But if 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.600 this man thinks that poker is such a crucial element 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.160 to understanding the exact questions I'm interested in. Maybe I 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.200 should read a little bit about it. Started reading about it, 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.040 and I thought, this is my book. Why don't I 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:17.239 learn this game? Why don't I get someone really really 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.640 good to teach me? Um? And why don't I use 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.160 that kind of as a life metaphor to to explore 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.800 all of these questions of skill and chance that I'm 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:27.400 interested in. And I didn't actually say I'm going to 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.440 become a great poker player. I had no expectations. I 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:31.960 didn't know if I was going to be good, if 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.439 I was going to be bad. It didn't really matter. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.800 What it mattered to me was the journey, the learning process, Tracy. 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.080 I just want to point out that Maria has won 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:47.120 three hundred eleven thousand dollars playing poker tournaments according to 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:50.959 the Hendon mob database, including her best cash of an 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.559 eighty four thousand dollar eighty four thousand six D pay day. 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:57.320 So something to keep in mind when someone just says, oh, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.319 I want to learn how to do it, I'm I'm 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.360 extremely impressed. Anyway, keep going. I just want to just 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.600 sort of set the stage of how how successful that 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.880 decision was. Yeah, fair enough, So you didn't set out 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:12.920 to become a great poker player, but it looks like 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.240 you got there anyway. But I have to say that 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.360 mix of skill and luck that you were describing this 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:21.480 is one of my own personal frustrations with poker, because 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:24.640 I feel like, even if I personally play a really, 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:26.960 really good game, if I just get a bunch of 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.760 terrible cards, there's not that much I can do about it. 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:34.679 So I'm very intrigued by your thesis. Um, I'm curious 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.040 as you set out to learn more about poker, where 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:42.160 did you begin? You mentioned reading a lot, but but 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.120 where did you go from there? And who did you 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:48.960 talk to? So I enlisted Eric Sidell, who is one 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.760 of the best players in the world, some considered him 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.800 to be the greatest player of all time, to serve 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.920 as my coach and mentor throughout this journey. Um, I 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.360 got incredibly lucky. You know. My Luks started from day 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:03.080 one when he agreed to take on this project even 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:07.080 though he's never taken a student before me, and said, Okay, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.679 this is interesting, this is intriguing. Let's see if someone 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.720 with your mind set, with a background in psychology, who's 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.480 a blank slate for poker basically, if we can teach 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:20.000 you to play well, and he set my agenda and 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.200 he was able to introduce me to a lot of 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:26.280 the best minds in the game. So don't get me wrong, 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.920 I I did work incredibly hard. Um I When I 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:31.960 decided to do this, you know, I left the New Yorker. 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.600 I said, I'm going to do this full time, seven 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:37.160 days a week, seven eight nine, ten hours a day. 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.440 I was living in breathing poker, either playing or analyzing 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:44.400 hands or studying or doing something. But but that aside, 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:47.120 I also had access to the best minds in the game. 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.280 So Eric introduced me to Dan Harrington, who literally wrote 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:54.120 the textbooks on introduction to poker. I started working a 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.880 lot with Phil Galfond, who is the founder of Run 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.240 at Once, which is both a training site which is 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.440 some of the best or training content and a poker site, 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.320 um which you can't play on in the United States unfortunately, 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.560 but you can play on in the rest of the world. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.439 And he's one of the greatest players of all time. 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.760 And then all of these other great names just came 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.840 along and helped me, and we're there to answer any 0:11:15.920 --> 0:11:19.600 question that I could possibly have. And that's rare when 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.560 you have an opportunity to just pick the brains of 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.360 the best practitioners in that world. I don't take that 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.440 for granted, you know, I'm I could have been someone 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.800 who worked really, really hard and never achieved success because 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.080 I didn't have access to that. And Tracy, you know, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.360 to to answer your your frustration with the game. That's 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.640 also the beautiful thing about it because it teaches you 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.600 how to deal with that in life. It's one of 0:11:46.640 --> 0:11:49.040 these things where one of the lessons that all of 0:11:49.080 --> 0:11:51.840 my all of my teachers, but mostly Eric would stress 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.880 over and over and over is that you have to 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:58.640 divorce yourself completely from the outcome. What poker teaches you 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.720 is to focus only on the thing you can control, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.120 which is the process, which is making the best decisions 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:07.000 you possibly can and putting yourself in a position to win, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.199 because then over the long term, if you master the process, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:11.960 you're going to be a winning player. No matter what. 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.520 In the short term, variance can go against you, and yeah, 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.640 you can get bad cards, someone else can be hit 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:18.720 in the face with the deck. Um, you might win it, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.559 you might lose a hand, you might lose a game, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.160 you might lose a tournament, but if you play over 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:27.000 and over and over and you've always just completely disregarded 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:29.360 the outcome and focused on making your process as good 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.760 as possible, eventually you're going to win a lot of funeym. 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:52.160 Can you talk a little bit more about what what 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:56.600 you get out of professional guidance? And obviously everyone knows 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.360 there's a million poker books that's been that have been written. 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.560 I read a handful of them. What is it that 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.480 when you talk to someone like Eric Sidell or Dan Harrington? 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.040 What is it that they can do for you? Is 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:13.920 it hand analysis? Is it helping you identify patterns of 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.000 play among the people with whom you're at a table. 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.560 Talk to us about like what is it how that 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.560 coaching works and what specifically they can offer to help 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.840 someone's game go to the next level. Well, I think 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.640 that personalization is key. Eric got to know me incredibly well. 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.520 I mean, at this point, you know, I count him 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.920 as a good friend because of just the sheer amount 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:35.960 of time that I spent with his family. They basically 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:40.640 adopted me. The Sidels are are amazing, um, and you know, 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:43.880 I just I tagged along and spent more time with 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:46.600 with them than I did with my own family for 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.920 for over a year, um, and he really knew how 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.520 I thought and who I was, and so that enabled 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:56.560 him to see my weaknesses and to be able to 0:13:56.760 --> 0:14:00.480 really teach me how to think properly in a way 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:02.400 that he couldn't have done had I just been some 0:14:02.880 --> 0:14:05.240 random person. And so I do think that that level 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.800 of immersion was absolutely essential. And yes, hand analysis this 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.520 is very important to that because a book can only 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.120 teach you so much, but actually being able to discuss 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.040 things with people actually and this is true of anything, 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:23.120 of learning, absolutely anything, Having someone with whom to talk 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:27.120 through ideas, talk through your thought process really helps you 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:31.320 grow and learn because you're forced to explain your thought process, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.200 you're forced to pay attention to it, you're forced to 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:37.320 analyze it in a way that allows you to spot 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.160 loopholes that you otherwise wouldn't fat. One of the best 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.720 teaching tools is to try to explain something to someone. 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.080 If you're unable to explain a concept, that means you 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.440 don't not understand it, and that is one of the 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.240 first ways that a teacher can see whether someone has 0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:53.000 actually understood something. It's very easy to say, oh, yeah, 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:55.160 I get that, but then say Okay, now teach someone 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.600 who doesn't get it um, and most people of flounder 0:14:57.720 --> 0:14:59.720 and not be able to do that, and so that 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:04.040 and forth made it impossible for me to hide. I 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.840 actually had to learn these ideas. I actually had to 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.240 think through them for myself. And most of what Eric did, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:12.880 it's not like we never sat down and he said, okay, 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:14.480 this is how you played this hand in that position. 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.160 We didn't have a single conversation like that. It was all, okay, well, 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:21.160 let's think through this. It's very socratic method um, which 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.520 could have been which could be incredibly frustrating. And sometimes 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.080 I just wanted to shake him and say, just tell 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.120 me how to play this. You know, I don't know 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:31.240 what I'm doing. Um. But what he was doing was 0:15:31.240 --> 0:15:33.840 giving me the building blocks of thought, the building blocks 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.800 of analysis, so that I could survive on my own 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:40.840 rather than UM, I have to constantly turn to him 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.480 and try to memorize things. Memorization is not the way 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.880 to go by the way. That's that's a really bad 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.560 way of learning poker. And that's what a lot of 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:49.560 people do. They're like, oh, this is my hand range. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:51.560 I know that I'm opening these hands. I know I'm 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.960 doing this, I know I'm doing that. It's all based 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.800 on memory. And while it's good to memorize certain things 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.920 like the odds of hitting a flush, you know, very 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.040 just very basic things. It's like a handfeld like ten things. 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.800 And then otherwise in terms of how you play, it's 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.600 all about the process, not about oh this is what 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.120 I do with this hand. No, let me look at 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.920 the situation. Let me look at all the factors, because 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.240 no two hands are the same, No two situations are 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.640 the same. And if you learn to conct contextualize every 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.000 decision that way, you're going to be a much better 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.560 decision maker, not just in poker, but in all decisions 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.800 that you make. M Well, just on that note, So, 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.480 once you had the building blocks of how to actually 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.840 play poker, can you describe what worked for you and 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:39.800 what you're playing style eventually looked like. That's a really 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.400 excellent question. Um. One of the things that I had 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.040 trouble with from the very beginning was aggression and bluff. 0:16:46.040 --> 0:16:49.360 Thing that's really not my personality. UM, that's not something 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.840 I was ever good at, and that's something that people 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:56.120 took advantage of. UM. I found myself being bullied a 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.840 lot and actually bowing down to the pressure. And it 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:04.199 was a really unpleasant realization. I had always thought of 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.240 myself as, you know, a pretty successful, strong willed female, 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:10.400 and it ends up that I'd actually internalized so many 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:13.520 gender stereotypes. I would be much more passive because I 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:15.520 wanted people to like me, and that was more important 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:17.400 to me than winning a lot of money. I would 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.520 fold hands because I didn't want people to say, oh, 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.639 there's that horrible girl again who always raises me. I 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:25.639 didn't want to. I wanted them to have a pleasant experience. 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:28.399 This was really not a good way to play poker 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:30.240 and not a good way to go through life. And 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.560 I was really upset with myself when I realized that 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.919 I was doing it, and so I really had to 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:39.960 work hard at that and eventually came to a style 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:43.800 that was much more my own and that actually took 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.840 advantage of the things that I was innately good at. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.880 This is something that I learned from Phil Galfund. Phil 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.880 is a very mild mannered person, and he told me, 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.080 you know, when I was trying to be aggressive all 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.480 the time, he said, look this, you don't have to 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.320 be You have to find your own style and Peel 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.800 himself isn't a terribly aggressive player, even though he's one 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.080 of the most successful players in the world. He said, 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:07.400 there's no one size fits all. Find the style that's 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:10.080 best for you, and so yes, be aggressive, but be 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.840 aggressive in a way that works for you. Not everyone 0:18:12.880 --> 0:18:16.160 can be hyper aggressive. It's something that has to fit 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.080 with your personality. It didn't fit with mine, and so 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:24.520 eventually I developed a very very I don't want to 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.200 say the word reactive because it sounds kind of negative, 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:32.359 but it's an adjustable playing style. Let's let's call it that, um. 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:35.040 But it is reactive because I was reacting to people's 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.119 perceptions of me and how they see women, because I 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.840 realized that everyone saw me as a female first and 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:43.399 as a poker player second, and if I could figure 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.840 out how they thought women played, because by the way, 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.880 poker's ninety seven percent male the professional world and three 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.520 percent female. So most of the time people will be like, oh, 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.760 my girlfriend plays, this is how she plays, so I 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.880 think you're going to play like that. They take their 0:18:57.200 --> 0:18:59.920 you know, these very strange notions of how women are 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:02.520 supposed to play or not play, and they apply them 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.399 to me, at least at the beginning, and if I 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:06.800 can figure out what that is, then I can play 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:10.440 into it and actually take advantage of it. Because it's 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.320 an incredibly strong it's a it's a wonderful thing to 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.720 be underestimated. It's something that you can really really use. 0:19:17.119 --> 0:19:19.240 And once I realized that, then I turned it on 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:21.440 its head and instead of letting myself people and I 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.520 was like, Okay, if you underestimate me and think that 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.119 I will fold to everything, then I know how to 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.840 I know how to counteract that. How should someone go 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.280 about the process of self evaluating? So I, like I said, 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:36.199 I like to play. I don't consider myself to be 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.399 particularly good at it. I just enjoy it sometimes I do. 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.479 All right, what are the first questions or what are 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:47.040 the first you know, you mentioned the Socratic approach to learning, 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:49.520 but what is what are the first things one should 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:54.040 look for in themselves to just a identify, um, how 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:58.639 they play currently and then be How might one go 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:04.359 about evaluating a style of aggression or reaction that they're 0:20:04.480 --> 0:20:08.320 comfortable with themselves? Well, I think that self analysis starts 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.600 far away from the poker table. I think everyone needs 0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:16.240 to take some time to just sit down and kind 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.760 of do a little self assessment, think, Okay, what are 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:22.000 my strengths, what are my weaknesses, What are the things 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:24.520 that annoy me? What are the things that make me happy? 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.520 Because at the poker table, all of these things are 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.800 going to come out. All of the psychological baggage that 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.199 you carry with you is going to come out, and 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:36.159 it's going to affect your game. Also, very important to 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.600 poker and to a lot of other strategic decisions are 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.679 how do I react to risk and to stress? So 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:45.080 am I in what kinds of situations? Am I risk seeking? 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.679 And what kinds of situations? And my risk averse? So 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:52.159 in poker, you'll see that one of the best scenarios 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.840 to pay attention to for other players if you want 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.720 to take advantage of them, is how do they react 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:03.080 when they lose huge pot? And relatedly, how do they 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.280 react when they win a huge pot. Most players are 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.880 actually going to react in some way, but that way 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.440 is not going to be the same. So some people, 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.480 for instance, when they lose a lot of money, all 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:15.680 of a sudden, they'll get hyper aggressive because they want 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.680