1
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,880
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

2
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:19,079
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisntal and I'm Tracy Halloway. Tracy, So you

3
00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,720
Speaker 1: guys are going into hard lockdown again in Hong Kong. Yeah,

4
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,440
Speaker 1: we are. We're experiencing our third wave of coronavirus and

5
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 1: unfortunately it's worse than the first and second waves. So yeah,

6
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 1: we're going back into social distancing measures. People are being

7
00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,480
Speaker 1: told to work from home, bars are closed, and restaurants

8
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,240
Speaker 1: are implementing new restrictions. So yep, back to lockdown. So

9
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 1: obviously this is all getting pretty tiresome. I think people

10
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,879
Speaker 1: are ready for real life to resume. But there's actually

11
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 1: one well there's a few aspects of lockdown life that

12
00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,200
Speaker 1: I kind of prefer, but there's one thing in particular

13
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,480
Speaker 1: that I and to be better. You know what it is? Yeah,

14
00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: I think I do. I think I've actually done it

15
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:09,440
Speaker 1: with you a couple of months ago. Oh yeah, yes,

16
00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 1: I find playing poker online with friends to be much

17
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:18,039
Speaker 1: better than playing poker, uh in real life with friends.

18
00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure poker is a better game online period,

19
00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,840
Speaker 1: but at least unlike a sort of social version, I

20
00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,319
Speaker 1: much prefer like playing in a room with a zoom

21
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: chat going on than actually like gathering around a table

22
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,399
Speaker 1: with friends and playing poker. Wait, You're going to have

23
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,640
Speaker 1: to explain that, because I thought poker, you know, when

24
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 1: people play on a casual level like that, it's supposed

25
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,039
Speaker 1: to be a social activity. You're not supposed to like

26
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,960
Speaker 1: doing it via zoom chat. Well I get that, and

27
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 1: so I think that's maybe it's because of a little

28
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 1: bit anti social or something like that. But normally, when

29
00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: I've played poker among friends or casually, people start talking

30
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,720
Speaker 1: about sports and they that flows down the dealing, and

31
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,880
Speaker 1: a really care about those conversas sports, or like someone

32
00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,560
Speaker 1: or someone is like, oh, let's order pizza and they

33
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 1: bring up to the table or chips and I'm like,

34
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,679
Speaker 1: come on, like let's just deal, or like someone gets distracted,

35
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,160
Speaker 1: they start telling a story while they're dealing. That gets

36
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,920
Speaker 1: really annoying. With the zoom chat in the you know,

37
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 1: the online poker room, you can have all that stuff.

38
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: You can still people having a name conversations or getting

39
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,360
Speaker 1: up for a snack, but it doesn't slow down the

40
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,959
Speaker 1: game at also have all you want to do is

41
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,679
Speaker 1: focus on the cards. Actually think it's a better experience. Well,

42
00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,440
Speaker 1: I have a question how much does doing poker via

43
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,680
Speaker 1: zoom help when it comes to actual strategy and for instance,

44
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 1: hiding your tells. Is that the reason you like it

45
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,080
Speaker 1: because maybe when you're playing in person, everyone knows what

46
00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,400
Speaker 1: you're thinking, and when you're on zoom, it's much easier

47
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: to hide your motivations. Well, let's time I was playing

48
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: with a friend who was wearing glasses and I thought

49
00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 1: I could almost make out his whole cards in the

50
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 1: reflection of his glasses. I couldn't, and that you know

51
00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: that would be unethical, But you know, I do think

52
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:06,480
Speaker 1: that's the thing. And I've noticed myself on the videos,

53
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,160
Speaker 1: like when I'm like, oh shoot, I'm really like leaning

54
00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 1: back at my chair here, I'm really staring. I wonder

55
00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,920
Speaker 1: if people can you know I'm giving it away. I

56
00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,840
Speaker 1: haven't played enough to like figure out patterns, but if

57
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 1: I were to play enough with zoom uh calls, you know,

58
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,200
Speaker 1: you would probably start to notice. I gotta say so.

59
00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a secret to all lots listeners

60
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,560
Speaker 1: that I am not a big poker fan or player,

61
00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: but when I do play, I find it much much

62
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,440
Speaker 1: more enjoyable when it's with actual people, and I think

63
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: it's much more interesting to try to look at the

64
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,640
Speaker 1: psychological aspect of it all versus just the cards and

65
00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 1: doing the maths, which feels like what Zoom is mostly about. Yeah, no,

66
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,440
Speaker 1: I hear that, And actually I think without the Zoom

67
00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,360
Speaker 1: it could get a little boring. And I think poker

68
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,280
Speaker 1: in general, even though I really enjoy it as a

69
00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 1: game or as a sport or whatever you want to

70
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,560
Speaker 1: call it, it can be boring and you just have

71
00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 1: long stretches of doing nothing, and the attempt to create

72
00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,600
Speaker 1: action to create excitement can often be very costly. So

73
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 1: I certainly am sympathetic to the view that it's more

74
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 1: enjoyable in real life with actual people. Yeah, people definitely

75
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 1: seem to do stupid things when they're playing the online

76
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,520
Speaker 1: games just to sort of whoa, just because they can.

77
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 1: But anyway, um, so I take it we are doing

78
00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,360
Speaker 1: a poker episode. Yeah, it's been a long time since

79
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 1: we've done a poker episode, but I'm really excited about

80
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 1: the one today because we're gonna be talking to an

81
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 1: author of a new book, and unlike some of our

82
00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:40,120
Speaker 1: previous guests who are professional online poker, longtime professional poker players.

83
00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,120
Speaker 1: Our new guest is sort of relatively new to the

84
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,560
Speaker 1: upper echelons of the game. Oh that sounds great. I'm

85
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 1: always well as someone who came to it, um relatively recently.

86
00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,400
Speaker 1: I am always interested to hear what other people think

87
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,839
Speaker 1: of the game and how they're strategizing around it and

88
00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,120
Speaker 1: actually playing. Yeah, I'm looking forward to learning some lessons.

89
00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,719
Speaker 1: Our guest today is Maria Kannakova. She used to be

90
00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 1: a writer at The New Yorker and uh now she

91
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 1: is a professional poker player and she is the author

92
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 1: of the Biggest Bluff How I learned to pay attention,

93
00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,680
Speaker 1: master myself and win. And she decided one day to

94
00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 1: be a poker success and she became one, which is

95
00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,400
Speaker 1: extremely impressive. So, Maria, thank you very much for joining us.

96
00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

97
00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 1: So you just decided one day, you're like I am

98
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: going to be a great poker player, and you just

99
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,279
Speaker 1: will yourself and trained yourself and you became one. You

100
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,920
Speaker 1: actually just manufactured it and made it happen. Is that

101
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 1: is that accurate? Um? Not entirely, Not entirely. UM. I

102
00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: was someone like like you, Tracy, who had zero interest

103
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,120
Speaker 1: in poker whatsoever. I'm not a games player. I have

104
00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,279
Speaker 1: no interesting games like any of them for my In

105
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,679
Speaker 1: my free time, I like to read and do things

106
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: like that. I've never grown up in a household. I

107
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 1: don't even think we had a deck of cards, and

108
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,880
Speaker 1: definitely no board games. Um they bore me. And I

109
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,560
Speaker 1: think the scariest thing that my niece and nephew can

110
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,520
Speaker 1: do is take out travelers of Katan. I just I

111
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,160
Speaker 1: start having a panic attack right away, thinking, Oh, no,

112
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,799
Speaker 1: are we actually going to have to play this? So

113
00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,719
Speaker 1: so that's not my world at all. I wanted to

114
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,440
Speaker 1: write a book about luck, about the role that chance

115
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,479
Speaker 1: plays in our lives, but to do so in a

116
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,560
Speaker 1: more systematic way, to try to figure out, Okay, can

117
00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 1: we learn to tell the difference between the things that

118
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,400
Speaker 1: we can control and the things we can't control? Can

119
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,159
Speaker 1: we learn to figure out where skill ends and where

120
00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 1: chance begins? And I needed a way into that topic,

121
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,880
Speaker 1: and I actually found one through one of the great

122
00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,119
Speaker 1: geniuses of the twentieth century, John von Neuman. I turned

123
00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,520
Speaker 1: to him because he's the father of game theory, and

124
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to look at that framework for looking at chance.

125
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,200
Speaker 1: And it turns out that von Neuman was a poker

126
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,839
Speaker 1: player and that game theory is actually based on poker.

127
00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,159
Speaker 1: That man Neuman believed that poker was the game that

128
00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,040
Speaker 1: best resembled strategic decision making in real life, because real life,

129
00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of games like chess, like go um,

130
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: which are games of complete information where you can actually

131
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: see the entire board, you can see all the pieces,

132
00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 1: you can figure out the right move, and you can

133
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: compute what the right decision is, that's not real life.

134
00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: Real life is a game with a lot of unknowns,

135
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 1: with a lot of uncertainty, with a lot of ambiguity.

136
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,880
Speaker 1: And that's what poker is. And so von Neuman believed

137
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: that if you could actually solve poker, then you'd have

138
00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,080
Speaker 1: the key to some of the most complex strategic decisions

139
00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 1: in reality. Um. And at the time, the guy was

140
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,080
Speaker 1: working on the hydrogen bomb, so so he really knew

141
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: what he was talking about. He was at the highest

142
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 1: echelons of governmental advising on strategy. This really really intrigued man.

143
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,240
Speaker 1: I thought, Oh, what is this poker thing? You know,

144
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,920
Speaker 1: I am really don't know what it is. But if

145
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,600
Speaker 1: this man thinks that poker is such a crucial element

146
00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,160
Speaker 1: to understanding the exact questions I'm interested in. Maybe I

147
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: should read a little bit about it. Started reading about it,

148
00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,040
Speaker 1: and I thought, this is my book. Why don't I

149
00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,239
Speaker 1: learn this game? Why don't I get someone really really

150
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 1: good to teach me? Um? And why don't I use

151
00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: that kind of as a life metaphor to to explore

152
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: all of these questions of skill and chance that I'm

153
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,400
Speaker 1: interested in. And I didn't actually say I'm going to

154
00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 1: become a great poker player. I had no expectations. I

155
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:31,960
Speaker 1: didn't know if I was going to be good, if

156
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,439
Speaker 1: I was going to be bad. It didn't really matter.

157
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 1: What it mattered to me was the journey, the learning process, Tracy.

158
00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,080
Speaker 1: I just want to point out that Maria has won

159
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 1: three hundred eleven thousand dollars playing poker tournaments according to

160
00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:50,959
Speaker 1: the Hendon mob database, including her best cash of an

161
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,559
Speaker 1: eighty four thousand dollar eighty four thousand six D pay day.

162
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 1: So something to keep in mind when someone just says, oh,

163
00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,319
Speaker 1: I want to learn how to do it, I'm I'm

164
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: extremely impressed. Anyway, keep going. I just want to just

165
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,600
Speaker 1: sort of set the stage of how how successful that

166
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: decision was. Yeah, fair enough, So you didn't set out

167
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 1: to become a great poker player, but it looks like

168
00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: you got there anyway. But I have to say that

169
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,360
Speaker 1: mix of skill and luck that you were describing this

170
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 1: is one of my own personal frustrations with poker, because

171
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,640
Speaker 1: I feel like, even if I personally play a really,

172
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,960
Speaker 1: really good game, if I just get a bunch of

173
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,760
Speaker 1: terrible cards, there's not that much I can do about it.

174
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,679
Speaker 1: So I'm very intrigued by your thesis. Um, I'm curious

175
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 1: as you set out to learn more about poker, where

176
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 1: did you begin? You mentioned reading a lot, but but

177
00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,120
Speaker 1: where did you go from there? And who did you

178
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,960
Speaker 1: talk to? So I enlisted Eric Sidell, who is one

179
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,760
Speaker 1: of the best players in the world, some considered him

180
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 1: to be the greatest player of all time, to serve

181
00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 1: as my coach and mentor throughout this journey. Um, I

182
00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: got incredibly lucky. You know. My Luks started from day

183
00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,080
Speaker 1: one when he agreed to take on this project even

184
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:07,080
Speaker 1: though he's never taken a student before me, and said, Okay,

185
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,679
Speaker 1: this is interesting, this is intriguing. Let's see if someone

186
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 1: with your mind set, with a background in psychology, who's

187
00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 1: a blank slate for poker basically, if we can teach

188
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,000
Speaker 1: you to play well, and he set my agenda and

189
00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 1: he was able to introduce me to a lot of

190
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,280
Speaker 1: the best minds in the game. So don't get me wrong,

191
00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: I I did work incredibly hard. Um I When I

192
00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,960
Speaker 1: decided to do this, you know, I left the New Yorker.

193
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,600
Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to do this full time, seven

194
00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,160
Speaker 1: days a week, seven eight nine, ten hours a day.

195
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,440
Speaker 1: I was living in breathing poker, either playing or analyzing

196
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: hands or studying or doing something. But but that aside,

197
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,120
Speaker 1: I also had access to the best minds in the game.

198
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 1: So Eric introduced me to Dan Harrington, who literally wrote

199
00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:54,120
Speaker 1: the textbooks on introduction to poker. I started working a

200
00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 1: lot with Phil Galfond, who is the founder of Run

201
00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: at Once, which is both a training site which is

202
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,440
Speaker 1: some of the best or training content and a poker site,

203
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,320
Speaker 1: um which you can't play on in the United States unfortunately,

204
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,560
Speaker 1: but you can play on in the rest of the world.

205
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,439
Speaker 1: And he's one of the greatest players of all time.

206
00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:12,760
Speaker 1: And then all of these other great names just came

207
00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,840
Speaker 1: along and helped me, and we're there to answer any

208
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,600
Speaker 1: question that I could possibly have. And that's rare when

209
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 1: you have an opportunity to just pick the brains of

210
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: the best practitioners in that world. I don't take that

211
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,440
Speaker 1: for granted, you know, I'm I could have been someone

212
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,800
Speaker 1: who worked really, really hard and never achieved success because

213
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,080
Speaker 1: I didn't have access to that. And Tracy, you know,

214
00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 1: to to answer your your frustration with the game. That's

215
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,640
Speaker 1: also the beautiful thing about it because it teaches you

216
00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,600
Speaker 1: how to deal with that in life. It's one of

217
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,040
Speaker 1: these things where one of the lessons that all of

218
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 1: my all of my teachers, but mostly Eric would stress

219
00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,880
Speaker 1: over and over and over is that you have to

220
00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,640
Speaker 1: divorce yourself completely from the outcome. What poker teaches you

221
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 1: is to focus only on the thing you can control,

222
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 1: which is the process, which is making the best decisions

223
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: you possibly can and putting yourself in a position to win,

224
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,199
Speaker 1: because then over the long term, if you master the process,

225
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 1: you're going to be a winning player. No matter what.

226
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,520
Speaker 1: In the short term, variance can go against you, and yeah,

227
00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 1: you can get bad cards, someone else can be hit

228
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:18,720
Speaker 1: in the face with the deck. Um, you might win it,

229
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,559
Speaker 1: you might lose a hand, you might lose a game,

230
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 1: you might lose a tournament, but if you play over

231
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 1: and over and over and you've always just completely disregarded

232
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,360
Speaker 1: the outcome and focused on making your process as good

233
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 1: as possible, eventually you're going to win a lot of funeym.

234
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:52,160
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit more about what what

235
00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 1: you get out of professional guidance? And obviously everyone knows

236
00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,360
Speaker 1: there's a million poker books that's been that have been written.

237
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,560
Speaker 1: I read a handful of them. What is it that

238
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,480
Speaker 1: when you talk to someone like Eric Sidell or Dan Harrington?

239
00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,040
Speaker 1: What is it that they can do for you? Is

240
00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: it hand analysis? Is it helping you identify patterns of

241
00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,000
Speaker 1: play among the people with whom you're at a table.

242
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,560
Speaker 1: Talk to us about like what is it how that

243
00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 1: coaching works and what specifically they can offer to help

244
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,840
Speaker 1: someone's game go to the next level. Well, I think

245
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,640
Speaker 1: that personalization is key. Eric got to know me incredibly well.

246
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 1: I mean, at this point, you know, I count him

247
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 1: as a good friend because of just the sheer amount

248
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 1: of time that I spent with his family. They basically

249
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:40,640
Speaker 1: adopted me. The Sidels are are amazing, um, and you know,

250
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,880
Speaker 1: I just I tagged along and spent more time with

251
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,600
Speaker 1: with them than I did with my own family for

252
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 1: for over a year, um, and he really knew how

253
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,520
Speaker 1: I thought and who I was, and so that enabled

254
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,560
Speaker 1: him to see my weaknesses and to be able to

255
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 1: really teach me how to think properly in a way

256
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: that he couldn't have done had I just been some

257
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 1: random person. And so I do think that that level

258
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 1: of immersion was absolutely essential. And yes, hand analysis this

259
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 1: is very important to that because a book can only

260
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 1: teach you so much, but actually being able to discuss

261
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 1: things with people actually and this is true of anything,

262
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:23,120
Speaker 1: of learning, absolutely anything, Having someone with whom to talk

263
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: through ideas, talk through your thought process really helps you

264
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 1: grow and learn because you're forced to explain your thought process,

265
00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,200
Speaker 1: you're forced to pay attention to it, you're forced to

266
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,320
Speaker 1: analyze it in a way that allows you to spot

267
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 1: loopholes that you otherwise wouldn't fat. One of the best

268
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,720
Speaker 1: teaching tools is to try to explain something to someone.

269
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 1: If you're unable to explain a concept, that means you

270
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,440
Speaker 1: don't not understand it, and that is one of the

271
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: first ways that a teacher can see whether someone has

272
00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 1: actually understood something. It's very easy to say, oh, yeah,

273
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: I get that, but then say Okay, now teach someone

274
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,600
Speaker 1: who doesn't get it um, and most people of flounder

275
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:59,720
Speaker 1: and not be able to do that, and so that

276
00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 1: and forth made it impossible for me to hide. I

277
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 1: actually had to learn these ideas. I actually had to

278
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 1: think through them for myself. And most of what Eric did,

279
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 1: it's not like we never sat down and he said, okay,

280
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,480
Speaker 1: this is how you played this hand in that position.

281
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 1: We didn't have a single conversation like that. It was all, okay, well,

282
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,160
Speaker 1: let's think through this. It's very socratic method um, which

283
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,520
Speaker 1: could have been which could be incredibly frustrating. And sometimes

284
00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 1: I just wanted to shake him and say, just tell

285
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,120
Speaker 1: me how to play this. You know, I don't know

286
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,240
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. Um. But what he was doing was

287
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 1: giving me the building blocks of thought, the building blocks

288
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,800
Speaker 1: of analysis, so that I could survive on my own

289
00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,840
Speaker 1: rather than UM, I have to constantly turn to him

290
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,480
Speaker 1: and try to memorize things. Memorization is not the way

291
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 1: to go by the way. That's that's a really bad

292
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 1: way of learning poker. And that's what a lot of

293
00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 1: people do. They're like, oh, this is my hand range.

294
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 1: I know that I'm opening these hands. I know I'm

295
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,960
Speaker 1: doing this, I know I'm doing that. It's all based

296
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 1: on memory. And while it's good to memorize certain things

297
00:15:57,920 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: like the odds of hitting a flush, you know, very

298
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,040
Speaker 1: just very basic things. It's like a handfeld like ten things.

299
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,800
Speaker 1: And then otherwise in terms of how you play, it's

300
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,600
Speaker 1: all about the process, not about oh this is what

301
00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,120
Speaker 1: I do with this hand. No, let me look at

302
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,920
Speaker 1: the situation. Let me look at all the factors, because

303
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,240
Speaker 1: no two hands are the same, No two situations are

304
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 1: the same. And if you learn to conct contextualize every

305
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 1: decision that way, you're going to be a much better

306
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,560
Speaker 1: decision maker, not just in poker, but in all decisions

307
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,800
Speaker 1: that you make. M Well, just on that note, So,

308
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,480
Speaker 1: once you had the building blocks of how to actually

309
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,840
Speaker 1: play poker, can you describe what worked for you and

310
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:39,800
Speaker 1: what you're playing style eventually looked like. That's a really

311
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: excellent question. Um. One of the things that I had

312
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 1: trouble with from the very beginning was aggression and bluff.

313
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: Thing that's really not my personality. UM, that's not something

314
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,840
Speaker 1: I was ever good at, and that's something that people

315
00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 1: took advantage of. UM. I found myself being bullied a

316
00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,840
Speaker 1: lot and actually bowing down to the pressure. And it

317
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,199
Speaker 1: was a really unpleasant realization. I had always thought of

318
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,240
Speaker 1: myself as, you know, a pretty successful, strong willed female,

319
00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 1: and it ends up that I'd actually internalized so many

320
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,520
Speaker 1: gender stereotypes. I would be much more passive because I

321
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 1: wanted people to like me, and that was more important

322
00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,400
Speaker 1: to me than winning a lot of money. I would

323
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 1: fold hands because I didn't want people to say, oh,

324
00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:22,639
Speaker 1: there's that horrible girl again who always raises me. I

325
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,639
Speaker 1: didn't want to. I wanted them to have a pleasant experience.

326
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,399
Speaker 1: This was really not a good way to play poker

327
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,240
Speaker 1: and not a good way to go through life. And

328
00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 1: I was really upset with myself when I realized that

329
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,919
Speaker 1: I was doing it, and so I really had to

330
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,960
Speaker 1: work hard at that and eventually came to a style

331
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 1: that was much more my own and that actually took

332
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 1: advantage of the things that I was innately good at.

333
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,880
Speaker 1: This is something that I learned from Phil Galfund. Phil

334
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,880
Speaker 1: is a very mild mannered person, and he told me,

335
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:55,080
Speaker 1: you know, when I was trying to be aggressive all

336
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 1: the time, he said, look this, you don't have to

337
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,320
Speaker 1: be You have to find your own style and Peel

338
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 1: himself isn't a terribly aggressive player, even though he's one

339
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 1: of the most successful players in the world. He said,

340
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,400
Speaker 1: there's no one size fits all. Find the style that's

341
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 1: best for you, and so yes, be aggressive, but be

342
00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: aggressive in a way that works for you. Not everyone

343
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,160
Speaker 1: can be hyper aggressive. It's something that has to fit

344
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 1: with your personality. It didn't fit with mine, and so

345
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: eventually I developed a very very I don't want to

346
00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,200
Speaker 1: say the word reactive because it sounds kind of negative,

347
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:32,359
Speaker 1: but it's an adjustable playing style. Let's let's call it that, um.

348
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 1: But it is reactive because I was reacting to people's

349
00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,119
Speaker 1: perceptions of me and how they see women, because I

350
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 1: realized that everyone saw me as a female first and

351
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 1: as a poker player second, and if I could figure

352
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: out how they thought women played, because by the way,

353
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,880
Speaker 1: poker's ninety seven percent male the professional world and three

354
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 1: percent female. So most of the time people will be like, oh,

355
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: my girlfriend plays, this is how she plays, so I

356
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,880
Speaker 1: think you're going to play like that. They take their

357
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, these very strange notions of how women are

358
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 1: supposed to play or not play, and they apply them

359
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,399
Speaker 1: to me, at least at the beginning, and if I

360
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:06,800
Speaker 1: can figure out what that is, then I can play

361
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 1: into it and actually take advantage of it. Because it's

362
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: an incredibly strong it's a it's a wonderful thing to

363
00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,720
Speaker 1: be underestimated. It's something that you can really really use.

364
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 1: And once I realized that, then I turned it on

365
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,440
Speaker 1: its head and instead of letting myself people and I

366
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, if you underestimate me and think that

367
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,119
Speaker 1: I will fold to everything, then I know how to

368
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 1: I know how to counteract that. How should someone go

369
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: about the process of self evaluating? So I, like I said,

370
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:36,199
Speaker 1: I like to play. I don't consider myself to be

371
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 1: particularly good at it. I just enjoy it sometimes I do.

372
00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,479
Speaker 1: All right, what are the first questions or what are

373
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: the first you know, you mentioned the Socratic approach to learning,

374
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: but what is what are the first things one should

375
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: look for in themselves to just a identify, um, how

376
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 1: they play currently and then be How might one go

377
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 1: about evaluating a style of aggression or reaction that they're

378
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,320
Speaker 1: comfortable with themselves? Well, I think that self analysis starts

379
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,600
Speaker 1: far away from the poker table. I think everyone needs

380
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: to take some time to just sit down and kind

381
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,760
Speaker 1: of do a little self assessment, think, Okay, what are

382
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 1: my strengths, what are my weaknesses, What are the things

383
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 1: that annoy me? What are the things that make me happy?

384
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 1: Because at the poker table, all of these things are

385
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: going to come out. All of the psychological baggage that

386
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 1: you carry with you is going to come out, and

387
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,159
Speaker 1: it's going to affect your game. Also, very important to

388
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 1: poker and to a lot of other strategic decisions are

389
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 1: how do I react to risk and to stress? So

390
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 1: am I in what kinds of situations? Am I risk seeking?

391
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 1: And what kinds of situations? And my risk averse? So

392
00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,159
Speaker 1: in poker, you'll see that one of the best scenarios

393
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: to pay attention to for other players if you want

394
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: to take advantage of them, is how do they react

395
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 1: when they lose huge pot? And relatedly, how do they

396
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: react when they win a huge pot. Most players are

397
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 1: actually going to react in some way, but that way

398
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: is not going to be the same. So some people,

399
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: for instance, when they lose a lot of money, all

400
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,680
Speaker 1: of a sudden, they'll get hyper aggressive because they want

401
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: to win those chips back. They'll become much more risk seeking.

402
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 1: Other people when they lose a lot they'll suddenly become

403
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 1: very cautious and very risk averse because they want to

404
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 1: protect the little they have left. By the way, now

405
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 1: put in investing or whatever it is for poker, and

406
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 1: I think this is very true. Other people, when they

407
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: win a lot of money, they'll again become very risk seeking.

408
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 1: You say, oh, yeah, I'm on a roll. I have

409
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 1: the hot hand, gotta take more risks, gotta gotta keep

410
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,359
Speaker 1: the role going. Others, when they win a lot, they'll say, Okay,

411
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,400
Speaker 1: I'm done. You know, now I'm gonna be really conservative.

412
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 1: I want to protect what I already have. I don't

413
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 1: want to lose this because I could get unlucky. You

414
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: need to figure out how people are responding to those situations,

415
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 1: and then you can take advantage of that. But by

416
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: the same token, you need to figure out how you

417
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,640
Speaker 1: respond to that. Most people are honest with themselves. They say, oh,

418
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: I don't let that affect me. You know, I'm a

419
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: very rational person. No nobody is at the beginning, and

420
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: you actually have to honestly do that self assessment and

421
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: figure out, Okay, if I'm in that situation, how am

422
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: I going to react? Because it's not going to be

423
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: rational and how do I counteract that? So you you

424
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 1: start from that, you start to be honest with yourself,

425
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 1: put yourself in those most common situations, the ones that

426
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,399
Speaker 1: are most likely to get you off of a rational

427
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,800
Speaker 1: decision making path and onto an emotional decision making path,

428
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: and figure out ahead of time what your emotional reactions are,

429
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: so that you can figure out a game plan for

430
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 1: how to counteract that, and how to actually identify ahead

431
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: of time, so that you become someone who in the

432
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 1: moment is more able to control your thought process, more

433
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: able to control your emotions, and then you take it

434
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: from there. So I feel like whenever we have a

435
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 1: conversation about how best to play poker, and Joe and

436
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,239
Speaker 1: I have had quite a few of those on on

437
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 1: the podcast over the past few years, but there's always

438
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: this emphasis on being rational for obvious reasons. Right, it's

439
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: a game of logic, it's a game of numbers and probabilities.

440
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:15,040
Speaker 1: But is there any room for for emotions, for gut feeling.

441
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: Is there a way to use that to your advantage?

442
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: I feel like that aspect of it rarely gets to um, Okay,

443
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,359
Speaker 1: you've you've hit on one of my one of my

444
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: big passions which is to get the term gut feeling

445
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,959
Speaker 1: out of people's um action vocabulary. Ever, so we what

446
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 1: we love to react with our gut and a lot

447
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 1: of people will say, oh, you know, I'm a gut

448
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm a field player, I'm a gut player. So I

449
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: as a psychologist, I studied this a lot. And what

450
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: we find and study after study is that people have

451
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 1: very very strong gut feelings, and they're equally strong when

452
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: they're correct and when they're wrong. And if you ask

453
00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: people to tell the difference, they're on able to coin flips.

454
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: So we have zero ability to tell which of our

455
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: gut feelings are our intuitions is accurate and which is

456
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: completely wrong minded. And our memories are very false when

457
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: it comes to this, they're very biased. So we'll remember

458
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: the times that we, you know, followed our gut and

459
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: we're right, or didn't follow it and our gut was right,

460
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,399
Speaker 1: and we'll forget all of those other times where our

461
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: gut was full of crap, which is what our gut

462
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: is normally filled with. And so what I urge people

463
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 1: to do is to realize that there's only one type

464
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 1: of gut feeling that you should be able to pay

465
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,879
Speaker 1: attention to. And that's when it's not really a gut feeling.

466
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: That's when it's thousands and thousands and thousands of hours

467
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,360
Speaker 1: of hard earned expertise of something that you are truly

468
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: good at and that you've spent a lot of time

469
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: studying that your mind might not have conscious access to,

470
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: and so you actually experienced it as gut when it's

471
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: really expertise. So for someone like Eric Seidel, if he

472
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: has a got feeling that this person is bluffing at

473
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: the poker table, you should go with that gut because

474
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: it's not gut, it's pattern recognition. It's the fact that

475
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: he's seen this situation play out over the last thirties

476
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: some odd years countless times. He just hasn't actually sat

477
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: down every time and then an analysis and said, oh,

478
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: when this happens, this person is bluff thing. But his

479
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: brain was doing that analysis even though he might not

480
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 1: have consciously been writing it down because he doesn't have

481
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 1: conscious access to it. He says, oh, gut feeling, But

482
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 1: it's not gut feeling. It's over thirty years of winning

483
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 1: at this game and seeing this play out over and

484
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: over and over. If I have that same gut feeling

485
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: this person is bluffing, I should ignore that and try

486
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: to look at all of the other things that I

487
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: can be using to make my decision. Because I do

488
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: not have the expertise. I've not been playing poker nearly

489
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: long enough. I cannot calm myself an expert. I'm not

490
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: allowed to calm myself an expert for another ten years

491
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: at least. Um, And so that's you have to be really,

492
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: really careful. And that's not something that people really like

493
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: to hear. We really love our guts, but you know

494
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: our our guts. That's you don't want to be deciding

495
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: with your stomach. You want to be deciding with your head.

496
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: So talk to us a little bit more about your

497
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: actual experience and uh, you know you mentioned okay, you

498
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: decided you wanted to do this, you sought out instruction,

499
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 1: but then actual put it into gameplay, And what was

500
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: the learning curve like? And how long did it take

501
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: you from going to someone who's like, okay, just sort

502
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: of understanding the rules to feeling like you had a

503
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: good chance at making money when you sat down at

504
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: the poker table. What was that process like, Um, I

505
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 1: still don't think I have a good chance of making

506
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: funny when it sent out at the poker table. I

507
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: think that impostor complex has has never entirely gone away. UM,

508
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: but it was a very it was it took a

509
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: long time. So the way that I started learning UM

510
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: at first, I played online UM, even though I always

511
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: knew that my goal was to play live my edges live. UM.

512
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: I'm a psychologist. I'm not a mathematician. The last time

513
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: I took a math class was in high school. My

514
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: edges people UM and online. Sure some of that matters,

515
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: but most of it is mathematics, So I'm not someone

516
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: who was ever going to train there. But online you

517
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 1: can get a lot more experience, and you can get

518
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: live because the hands are much faster. So in a

519
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: week of playing online you can get six months worth

520
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: of live playing experience. So so that's very important. So

521
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: I started there UM and until I started consistently making

522
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: money online, Eric did not let me play live. He

523
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: was very big about building your bank roll organically and

524
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: making sure that you were very savvy financially with your decisions.

525
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: What stakes when you the first tables that you said, So,

526
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: I always played tournaments. I did not play cash games,

527
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: so these were like five dollar buying tournaments. I made

528
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: the decision at the beginning because it's a very if,

529
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: it's a very different style of play, and um, we

530
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: had to decide what was I going to do? And

531
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: as if you're talking about life analogy, tournaments are definitely

532
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: the way the way to go because they have a dynamic.

533
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 1: There's a beginning, there's a middle, there's an end. It's

534
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: much more of a progressive story as opposed to a

535
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: cash game, which is much more static. So we decided

536
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: I was going to focus exclusively on tournaments. So I

537
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: was playing, you know, five dollar tournaments online. Once I

538
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: started winning some of those, and I want to think

539
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: a little over two thousand dollars, and I took that

540
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: money and went to Vegas and started playing in the

541
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: dailies and nightlies. Um, you know, the thirty five dollar

542
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: buying tournaments, because that's as low as you can go

543
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: for live poker. And I really wanted to play in

544
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: these hundred dollar tournaments, and Erica wouldn't let me. He said,

545
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: that's way too high for you. You You can't do it

546
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: until you start winning at the lower ones. And I

547
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: spent multiple months in Vegas playing every single day, multiple

548
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: tournaments a day, and I was losing money for for

549
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: a while, and I became very frustrated because I thought,

550
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: you know, I'm i'm studying, I'm working really hard, um,

551
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: and nothing's working. And then it started working. Everything just

552
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: kind of came together and I won my first tournament

553
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: at Planet Hollywood. It was you know, forty five or

554
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: something dollar buy and and I won over over nine

555
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: hundred dollars and I was just over the over the moon.

556
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: It was amazing. And then I started being able to

557
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: play the hundred dollar tournaments and I started final tabling

558
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: those and coming in second place and doing doing well there.

559
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: And then I was able to move up gradually too,

560
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: higher and higher stakes. And I think that that original

561
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: win up Planet Hollywood made me realize, okay, um, I

562
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: can do this. UM. I really needed that burst of confidence,

563
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: because after two months of playing almost every day and

564
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: not making any money, UM, it can be very frustrating.

565
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: And eventually it can be enough to say, you know,

566
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just really really bad at this. But what

567
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 1: it shows you is that Sue or at the beginning,

568
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: I was very very bad. But it also takes a

569
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: while for everything to come together. Being bad. It doesn't

570
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: mean you're not learning, it doesn't mean you're not improving,

571
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: and you can't judge based on outcome. You have to

572
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: just keep on, keep on plugging away at the process.

573
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,239
Speaker 1: And then I know, after after that first when I

574
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 1: didn't look back because I was able to kind of

575
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: finance my way through UM and then my big breakthrough

576
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: at pc A, The Poker Stars carribean adventure UM when

577
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: I made UM in you know, in one week, I

578
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: made over a hundred thousand dollars UM. That happened almost

579
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: a year to the day from the first time I

580
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: played a live poker tournament. So I have two questions

581
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: based on that. But the first one is Joe and

582
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: I started this podcast by discussing the sort of pros

583
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: and cons of doing online poker versus live games. What

584
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: was your experience of that and how was the process different?

585
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: And then secondly, when you were doing the live games,

586
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: what did you tell people about who you are? You know,

587
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: did anyone ask you what you were doing there? And

588
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: you sort of appeared out of nowhere and and started

589
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: to do very well. So I'm just wondering if people

590
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: were curious about about you. Yeah, So, so the first

591
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 1: part online and live is very different. I vastly prefer

592
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: live poker, um, both because I'm better at it, but

593
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: also I find it more interesting, there's more going on. Um.

594
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: This isn't true of all people. A lot of people

595
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: prefer playing online um, and they're different both in terms

596
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: of speed and in terms of the player pools. Although

597
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: right now things have gone a little bit murky because

598
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: a lot of live players have moved online because with

599
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: COVID you can't play live UM, so so now the

600
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: player pools have become a little bit mixed. But before

601
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: there were very different player tendencies, and you learned to

602
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: play a little bit differently online than live, and online

603
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 1: was actually tougher. The good online games were much harder

604
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: than the live games because people were more mathematically minded. Um.

605
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: The best players use software to analyze everything they have overlays,

606
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 1: You're you're just seeing a table, They're seeing your sticks.

607
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: They're seeing exactly what percentage Japan's you open pre flop,

608
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: how often you three bet, how often you fold to

609
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: a three bed, how often you forebet. All of those

610
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: numbers are there because they have that software crunching in

611
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: the background. If you want to play seriously, online you

612
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: have to have it UM, even though some sites no

613
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: longer allow it, but all of the sites that do UM,

614
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: you're at this huge disadvantage if you don't use that.

615
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: None of that exists live. You have to just learn

616
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: to do that on your own. You have to learn

617
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: to pay attention to it. So in that sense, live

618
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: is harder UM. But I like it a lot better

619
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: because I actually think that those muscles are very important

620
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: too to train, and I think because I play live,

621
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: I actually have a bit of an advantage on the

622
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: sites that don't allow the HUDs, those that those software overlays,

623
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: because I'm used to paying attention to players and I'm

624
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: used to kind of counting for myself. Okay, how often

625
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: does this person raise? How often do they three bet?

626
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: How often do they fold to afford bit? You know,

627
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 1: I'm used to tracking that in my mind, whereas players

628
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: who have software that does it for them are not

629
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: necessarily used to it. So that's but that's a big difference.

630
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: So online much more mathematical, Live much more psychological, a

631
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: lot more software number crunching online UM, a lot more

632
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 1: people crunching live UM. In terms of whether people asked

633
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: me questions at the beginning, I think they just when

634
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: I was playing in most days tournaments, no one really

635
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: gave me a second look, um, because otherwise other than saying, oh,

636
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: there's a girl in the game, well that's weird. Um.

637
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: But over time, yeah, absolutely, and people started figuring out

638
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I never volunteered it, but I

639
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: never lied about it if someone asked, UM. And I

640
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: think that it stood out because when I was traveling,

641
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: I would be sitting, you know, in these smaller tournaments,

642
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: and then all of these high roller players, not just

643
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:51,959
Speaker 1: Derek but all his friends would come over and say

644
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: hi to me and give me a hug, because those

645
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: were the people I knew. Those were my friends in

646
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: the game. And so people started realizing, wait, who is

647
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: this girl who knows all of these people both um.

648
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: And then the poker media picked up on it, um

649
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 1: and did a few stories about me, and then I

650
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:22,479
Speaker 1: lost a little bit of my anonymity. M I wanted

651
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: to ask another question about the only reason we talked

652
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: sometimes about poker on this podcast, which is nominally about

653
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: markets and economics, is there are a lot of people

654
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: in the investing world who play poker and are interested

655
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: in then and there's obviously a lot of theoretical cross

656
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: over right now in investing. We've seen just in the

657
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: last several months, but for a while, this absolute explosion

658
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: of online trading and retail money coming into trading like

659
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: we've never seen before. And if I wanted to do

660
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: some sort of like you know, forced torture analogy, maybe

661
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: a sort of like the Chris Moneymaker phenomenon where after

662
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: everyone saw him when the World Series of Poker without

663
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: a bunch of people got into playing online poker. But

664
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, lots of people are entering the investing

665
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: world trading like crazy online. And I'm curious, um, you

666
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: know how that's changed the game even in person? You know,

667
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: when you're at a live table against people who have

668
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: like had their experience, um playing mostly online, have seen

669
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: more hands online because they're multi tabling it perhaps than

670
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: someone like even like Eric Sidell has seen in the

671
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 1: thirty year career, just because they could play so many

672
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: hands so so much. How has that fundamentally changed the

673
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 1: game from your perspective that so many people have seen

674
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 1: so much, uh, in a way that historically never been

675
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: the case before. Well, it's actually changed it live much

676
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: less than you would think, because, um, a lot of

677
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: the online players when they actually make the transitions to live,

678
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: are horrible. Uh. They you don't understand live poker. They

679
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 1: give off way too much information. And when you're multi tabling,

680
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: you don't You're not You're good at the mathematical, tiny edges,

681
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: you're not good at the very big spots because you

682
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: don't have to be. That's not how you play. You

683
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: play for volume and for making a tiny bit of money. Um,

684
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: multi tabling is not the way to get good at

685
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: live poker. But it's a wonderful They would kick my

686
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 1: ass on online, don't get me wrong, But a lot

687
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: of times I love playing with them live because they

688
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: don't know what they're doing. Um, and they give off

689
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 1: way too much information. Um. However, a lot of the

690
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: really best players these days who have come up both

691
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: online and live, have made the game more challenging, or

692
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: so I've been told. So a lot of people say, WHOA,

693
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: you know you came in at such a horrible time

694
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: when you know poker is dying because it's getting so complex.

695
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It's all I've ever seen, it's

696
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,240
Speaker 1: all I know. I don't know what it was like before.

697
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: I've been told it's tougher now, um, But I think

698
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: that they bring a much more mathemat radical mindset. They're

699
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: using solvers programs that actually run you know, thousands of

700
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 1: Monte Carlo simulations and try to figure out what's the

701
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: approximate way to play this hand, um, And so they're

702
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: thinking about it in a much more precise way. Um.

703
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: That said, I actually think that it can give a

704
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: false sense of confidence, because it's really important to remember

705
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: that poker has not been solved, that these solvers are

706
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: only approximations, and they're only as good as with any

707
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: algorithms as the inputs that you put in, and a

708
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: lot of people missed use solvers. They don't know how

709
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: to put it in ranges correctly, they don't know how

710
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 1: to put in the build the game trees correctly, and

711
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: garbage and garbage out. As with every single algorithm, and

712
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: even the players who do use them correctly, who know

713
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: exactly what they're doing, and who are the best in

714
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: the world at them, a lot of times they won't see,

715
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: they won't think creatively, they won't actually see um, some

716
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: of the nuances that are happening live because they're so

717
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: locked into their solutions and they know exactly what they're

718
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 1: post to do, and you can really exploit that. So

719
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: some of sometimes the mathematical guys are the easiest players

720
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: to play against. Usually they're gonna they're gonna really excel um,

721
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: But there are moments where you can just completely take

722
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: advantage of them, and I have. I've actually won against

723
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: some of the absolute best players in the world by

724
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: knowing exactly how they were thinking about things because I

725
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: also use solvers. You have to if you're playing at

726
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: a high level. Um, But I use them as a

727
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: way to enhance my thinking, not as a way of

728
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: saying of gaining certainty. There's really there's I think a

729
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: big risk, not just in poker, but in financing everything,

730
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: in thinking that algorithms and big data and all of

731
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 1: this stuff that it's going to give you certainty that

732
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 1: you don't actually have. And I think that there's a

733
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: big risk of over confidence there and of failing to

734
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: pay attention to other things because you think you've got it.

735
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: I'll figured out I'm going to make an assumption in

736
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: this next question, and do tell me if it's incorrect.

737
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,720
Speaker 1: But when we started the discussion and you were describing

738
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: your project, you you sort of said or you suggested

739
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: that poker was you know, your interest in it was

740
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: came from intellectual curiosity and you saw as this mix

741
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: of skill and luck that best reflected life. It sounds

742
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: like as you embarked on this project that you came

743
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 1: to really enjoy your poker experience. I'm just wondering, when

744
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: you know, if that happened, what made it happen? Like,

745
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: what was that moment when you when you thought, actually

746
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,919
Speaker 1: I really like this and I'm having fun. It definitely happened. Um,

747
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 1: there wasn't one moment um. I think it was a

748
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: realization over time. And I think that the reason that

749
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: I love poker is because of what it's teaching me

750
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: about non poker is because of how complex the game is.

751
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: It's because the more I learned about it, the more

752
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: difficult it becomes. And I feel like it's teaching me

753
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: to stretch my mind, to think in new ways, to

754
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: challenge myself on both an intellectual and an emotional human

755
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: love ball And until COVID, you know, I was playing

756
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: live regularly. I was still traveling all over the world. Um.

757
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: In fact, you know I had to cancel plans for

758
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 1: my what was going to be my UM next big tournament.

759
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 1: Um it became one of the last live poker tournaments

760
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: to be held in this country. UM. So I was

761
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: on my way there and ended up going back because

762
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: of what was happening, and I realized that this was

763
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 1: not good and that the casino was not where I

764
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 1: should be. Um And But until that moment, I had

765
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,760
Speaker 1: no intention of quoting, end of pulling back from playing

766
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: seriously live because it was still giving me so much.

767
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 1: And I was still learning so much about thinking about

768
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: decision making, about emotional regulation, about people, about all of

769
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 1: these different elements, and that, to me is beautiful. There

770
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: are so few things that will give you that kind

771
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: of richness of experience. And now my PhD not just

772
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: in psychology, but I studied for years decision making under

773
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: risk and uncertainty and under hot emotional conditions. I made

774
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: people play stock market games. I looked at all of

775
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 1: their decisions, and I spent so long studying all of

776
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: this stuff, and nothing has taught me more about it

777
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: than poker basically stopped me. It's not me much more

778
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: than my PhD. Actually, I want to ask you about that.

779
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: The the emotional valance part because you can learn about

780
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, get really good at uh, pattern recognition, you

781
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 1: can get really good at math. You can get to

782
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: know yourself and your bluffing strategy and what you feel

783
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: comfortable with what. At some point, you get to a

784
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: position where you're in a tournament or maybe you're sort

785
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: of on the bubble with a chance to make money,

786
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,040
Speaker 1: and you're in a huge pot and the stakes are

787
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: really high, and uh, you know, people's heart start to

788
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: beat faster. How do you do you have a process

789
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:54,680
Speaker 1: for sticking to your method of analysis and not letting

790
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: the emotions of those moments dictate what you ultimately decide

791
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah. Absolutely in I mean part of it

792
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: is experience. At the beginning, I would give off a

793
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 1: lot of information just because these situations were new to

794
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,160
Speaker 1: me and it was really difficult for me to to

795
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 1: deal with the emotions and I hadn't thought through them,

796
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: you know. Part way through my journey, I actually got

797
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: a mental coach, so someone who helped me with the

798
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: mental elements of the game, someone named Jared Tendler, who

799
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 1: was very very good, um at teaching me to to

800
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: have some of these you know, mental cooling and emotional

801
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: cooling strategies because you do need someone to look at

802
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: you from the outside. Even though I'm someone who studied

803
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: self control and who really knows all of these strategies theoretically,

804
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: practically speaking, it's much more difficult to apply them to

805
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: yourself because you when you're on tilt that's the poker

806
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 1: term for letting emotions into your decision process, it's really

807
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: really hard to identify and analyze it in yourself. It's

808
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: much easier to see it in someone else. We're not

809
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: objective about ourselves, especially when we get into emotional situations.

810
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: And so a lot of the work happened away from

811
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: the poker to table. A lot of it involved going

812
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: through games, going through hands, going through tournaments. I would

813
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: take lots and lots of notes and try to figure

814
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 1: out after the fact, Okay, what situations got me off

815
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 1: my game, what things tilted me, what types of things

816
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: made me emotional? Okay, now now I'm going to actually

817
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 1: physically write all of those things down. Jared made me

818
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: make spreadsheets um where I would then say, Okay, what's

819
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: the emotion I was experiencing and what am I going

820
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: to do? What are the things I'm going to say

821
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 1: to myself in the moment to to counteract that, how

822
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: am I going to avoid this happening next time? You

823
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: have to do that work ahead of time, because once

824
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: you're already on tilt, it's too late. So if you

825
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: don't do that hard work in advance, UM, it's not

826
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: going to happen, and you're going to end up letting

827
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: emotions into your decision process, which is not good. If

828
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: they're incidental emotions. You know, sometimes the emotions are correct, um,

829
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 1: and they're actually integral to the decision, But of the time,

830
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 1: or even of the time, that's not the case. So

831
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: you need to learn to identify them and dismiss them.

832
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: And you need to learn techniques of cooling your hot

833
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: emotional states and figuring out how do I get back

834
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: to a rational place. And the only way to do

835
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 1: that is if you know and advance what your triggers are,

836
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: if you know and advance how you're likely to react,

837
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: because then you can be proactive as opposed to emotionally reactive. UM.

838
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: I want to go back to um, the point you

839
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: were making about women, how women are treated in the

840
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: game versus men, because I feel like whenever Joe and

841
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: I do a poker episode, it sort of sounds like

842
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 1: a massive cliche because Joe clearly enjoys the game and

843
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: plays it a reasonable amount, and I don't really see

844
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: what the big deal is. And although I play it

845
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: when I'm forced to and talk about it when I'm

846
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: forced to, Joe, UM, I don't find it that compelling.

847
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: Why do you think women aren't as attracted to poker

848
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: as men? And what can be done to change that

849
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,799
Speaker 1: and maybe interest women a bit more in the game. Yeah,

850
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything inherent. I think that actually

851
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: women are incredible poker players. Some of the best poker

852
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: players in the world, and the most impressive people are female. UM.

853
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: And there are people who have succeeded in all sorts

854
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: of other areas of life. And you have someone like

855
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 1: Vanessa Selps who went to Yale undergrad yea law school,

856
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 1: brilliant lawyer. UM worked at some of the best touch

857
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: funds in the world, professional poker player, Livebury astrophysicist, professional

858
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: poker player. You know, you have you have these very

859
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: very very impressive females. And I think that historically it's

860
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: been a male game, and so the culture is not

861
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: necessarily welcoming to women, and women don't realize I think

862
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the times what poker is. They just

863
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: see it as this gambling thing. And one of the

864
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: things I've tried to stress in my book, and I

865
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: hope my book actually brings more women to the game, um,

866
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: is that poker is not gambling. It's actually different from

867
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: every single other game in a casino. It's a game

868
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: of skill. It's a game where you can win with

869
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: the worst hand and where you can lose with the

870
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: best hand. Because eight percent of time, and this is

871
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 1: not a number that I'm just kind of pulling out

872
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 1: of thin air, um, there was actually a study that

873
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: economists did who analyzed hundreds of thousands of poker hands

874
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 1: online and found that the best hand one twelve percent

875
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: of the time, which means that pent of the time

876
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: it's the best player who forces someone with the better

877
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: hand to fold. And that, to me, that's just the

878
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 1: epitome of skill. It's all about becoming better and mastering

879
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: your process so that you can maximize your decisions, um

880
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: and basically be the be the more skilled person in

881
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: the game. And I think that that's not clear from

882
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 1: the popular culture. I think a lot of women think

883
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: of poker as you know, oh everyone's smoking, you know,

884
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 1: these guys in the back realm with cigars. I don't

885
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: want to do that. I don't want to gamble. And

886
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times when if you don't

887
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 1: understand the game, and if you haven't taken the time

888
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: to actually study in and to figure out, oh, this

889
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: is a game that can teach me a lot um,

890
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: you're like, you know what, this is boring. I don't

891
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: want to do this. It's not a boring game at

892
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 1: all if you actually start figuring out what it's about.

893
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: But it's boring if you just are sitting there and

894
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 1: no one wants to include you because you're not in

895
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,879
Speaker 1: the boys club. I think that that turns a lot

896
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: of women off. And I think a lot of times

897
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: when they walk into a casino and sit down at

898
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: a poker table at those lower stakes, it's not a

899
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: welcoming experience. A lot of men are drinking. There's a

900
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: lot of sexism. I mean, I've been called everything under

901
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: the moon. Some of the stuff is not not fit

902
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,319
Speaker 1: for a radio consumption. So I'm not I'm not going

903
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: to say what I've been called. But if you can

904
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: think of it. I've been called it. I've been propositioned, literally,

905
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: given a key card and told what my rate was

906
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: going to be. I've experienced things I never thought i'd experience,

907
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: and that's a problem, and I think that keeps a

908
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: lot of women from the game. And honestly, had I

909
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: not been a journalist going into this for a book

910
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: and had I not seen what was possible, had I

911
00:47:51,360 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: not had a lot of the best players showing me

912
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: that their excitement, their love of the game, the fact

913
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: that it's a really beautiful game before I sensed it

914
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: for myself, and I kind of took their word for

915
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: it because I said, well, you guys are brilliant and

916
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: you could do anything in the world, and you've chosen

917
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: to play poker, So I guess, I guess there must

918
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: be something to this. If I didn't have that, there's

919
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: a very good chance that I would have gotten right

920
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: up and walked out and never come back. Well, it's

921
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: good that you didn't. I think that's a great place

922
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: to leave it. What just real quickly, Um, how have

923
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: you been spending the the crisis, the quarantine and what

924
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,919
Speaker 1: are your plans for when it's over? Um, I've been

925
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: focusing on my book launch. So this was not the

926
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: way I planned to release my book. But my book

927
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: came out in the middle of quarantine. So I'm in

928
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: New York. Um. I barely have left Brooklyn, or I mean,

929
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: I barely have left my apartment since the end of February,

930
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 1: except for two weeks UM in July, where I actually

931
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 1: got an airbnb in New Jersey to play the World

932
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 1: Series of Poker online because in the US to have

933
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: to be physically located in New Jersey or Nevada in

934
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: order to be able to play. UM. And so I

935
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: did that, and now I'm back in Brooklyn. UM. And

936
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: do you not foresee any more travel in in my

937
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: immediate future? But yeah, my quarantine has been has been

938
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: spent on trying to get the book out there, even

939
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: though it's not See this this, this is the thing.

940
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: This is what poker teaches. You focus on the process,

941
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: and you can't control you can't control the outcomes, you

942
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: can't control what's going on around you. So everything that's

943
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: happening right now, that's just that's out of my hands. UM.

944
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: That's the variance, and that's the things that you can't

945
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: predict for UM. And that you can't control for so

946
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: what I can do is focus on myself and focus

947
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: on trying to make this as good of an experience

948
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 1: as I possibly can. Maria, that was great, really, uh

949
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 1: really enjoyed you coming on and uh, best of luck

950
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: and congrat something and looking forward to see you rising

951
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 1: on the Hendon mob. I'll keep both you're re checking

952
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:56,320
Speaker 1: your profile and I see your your cash your cash winnings,

953
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: continue to write. Thank you guys so much, thanks for it.

954
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: That was really interesting, crazy, I found that really inspiring,

955
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: you know, Like I always say I like the game,

956
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: but I admit that I'm not good at it. But

957
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: maybe I should just decide to try to get good

958
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: at it, and maybe we both should, Like, maybe we

959
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: should both stop talking about it so much and just

960
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: both become good at it. That'd be fun, wouldn't it.

961
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: I have a feeling that Maria makes it look a

962
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: lot easier than it actually. Um and that said clearly,

963
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 1: I haven't read the book, but just talking to her, like,

964
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: it's clear that she's a talented player, and it's it's

965
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: pretty phenomenal that she managed to do so, like completely

966
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: out of her own will. She just wilds this professional

967
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: poker career into being that's amazing. We kind of did

968
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:56,120
Speaker 1: that with like podcast, right, I think it's slightly different.

969
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: But okay, um, well we could do we could do

970
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: a part cast series where where we all go to

971
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: Vegas and why don't we just see who makes the

972
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: most money. I think that's what we should do. Let's

973
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: just do that. Yeah, rather than putting too much pressure

974
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 1: to actually become good when it's all over, let's just

975
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: both go and just see who wins more money. Yeah,

976
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,560
Speaker 1: and we'll record everything. It would be great. Yeah, that's

977
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: actually something to look forward to. Yeah, that's something to

978
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: look forward to and all that. But you know, I

979
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: do think I do think her a description of poker

980
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: as this mixture of luck and skill is a really

981
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: important one. And it's sort of similar in financial markets

982
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: as well. You can get lucky on a single call,

983
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,640
Speaker 1: but over the long run, all your investment decisions sort

984
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: of average out, and eventually, if you're making just tons

985
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,879
Speaker 1: and tons of stupid decisions, your your luck is going

986
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,439
Speaker 1: to get overwhelmed by your stupidity and your long term

987
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: average is going to go down. Yeah it's a cliche,

988
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: but fund managers, you know, they love to talk about

989
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: my process. I follow on a process that I may

990
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 1: have lost money at this quarter, but my process, my process.

991
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: But that is essentially what that means, which is like,

992
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes you're have an approach that's not gonna work,

993
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: you got bad cards, the company you invested in, whatever.

994
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: But that is what they're talking about, is that discipline

995
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: to have an approach. And you know, the the greatest

996
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: ones investors are not just someone who randomly got lucky

997
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 1: because they bought Netflix fifteen years ago or whatever, but

998
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: actually have some sort of process and discipline to evaluate investments.

999
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: It's just extremely, extremely hard. If someone were to ask

1000
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: me what my poker process was, I would say a

1001
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 1: mixture of panic and confusion. See that's what you know.

1002
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: You have the self evaluation part, So that's good, that's

1003
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: the first step. I don't know, I would probably say

1004
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 1: something pretty similar with a couple of that, with like

1005
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 1: some sort of like overconfidence or trying to do hard,

1006
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,479
Speaker 1: to be clever but probably but no better. All right, Well,

1007
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 1: I am looking forward to testing all of this out

1008
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: in Vegas once the whole coronas fingers crossed, I'm looking forward. Okay,

1009
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:09,440
Speaker 1: this has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.

1010
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at

1011
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe wisn't Thal. You can follow

1012
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at The Stalwart and you should follow

1013
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: our guests on Twitter Maria kna Cova. Her handle is

1014
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 1: at m conda Cova. Also be sure to check out

1015
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: her new book, The Biggest Blow How I Learned to

1016
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: pay attention, master myself and Win, and be sure to

1017
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: follow our producer Laura Carlson at Laura M. Carlton. Follow

1018
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 1: The Bloomberg had a podcast, Francesca Levi at Francesca Today

1019
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: and check out all of our podcasts under the handle

1020
00:53:41,760 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: at podcast. Thanks for listening to