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Speaker 1: Before we begin, a reminder to please rate and review

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Speaker 1: our show. It helps new listeners discover us and grow

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Speaker 1: the program. On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, this

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Speaker 1: year marks the fiftieth anniversary of Title nine, a landmark

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Speaker 1: and crucial federal civil rights law that's had a huge

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Speaker 1: impact on women's sports. But despite all the progress that's

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Speaker 1: been made over the last half century, there's still work

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Speaker 1: to be done. Our producer, Jessica your Mooski, spoke with

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Speaker 1: four SI staffers about five very real hurdles that women

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Speaker 1: in sports are still facing. You'll hear Kristen Nelson, Emma Bachelory,

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Speaker 1: Julie Kleigman, and Jamie Losanti talk about how to close

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Speaker 1: pay gaps, improve media coverage, fixed disparities and merchandise, ensure

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Speaker 1: that trans women have a place in athletics, and how

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Speaker 1: women's sports can become accepted by the mainstream. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I heart video. This

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Speaker 1: is Sports Illustrated Weekly. I'm Kristen Nelson. I am an

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Speaker 1: associate editor at S. I work primarily on the special

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Speaker 1: Projects team, and I'm also are Women's Sports editor. Right now,

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Speaker 1: the paid disparities between men and women's sports can be

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Speaker 1: anywhere froment to The average female athlete is making anywhere

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Speaker 1: from a hundred percent less than her average male counterpart,

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Speaker 1: and that's according to a study from last year from

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Speaker 1: Adelphi University. That's not an entirely encouraging thing to hear,

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Speaker 1: but the last couple of years have been really encouraging,

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Speaker 1: especially when you look at the US women's soccer team,

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Speaker 1: who had their big settlement back in February to have

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Speaker 1: equal pay as the men's team. It's still a lot

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Speaker 1: of to be done. M Title nine kind of creates

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Speaker 1: this pipeline of female athletes where at the youth level

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Speaker 1: and at the college level they are given the same opportunities,

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Speaker 1: which then sets the groundwork for the professional level, and

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Speaker 1: therefore there's now so many more women athletes who can

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Speaker 1: then go on and do it professionally rather than just

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Speaker 1: playing when they were younger and then having to change

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Speaker 1: their career or become a mother or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: The gap exists because on a bigger scale, women's sports

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Speaker 1: is kind of in its infancy compared to men's sports.

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Speaker 1: In terms of being recognized by the modern society, there's

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Speaker 1: really only been fifty years of women's sports. All of

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Speaker 1: these professional leagues did not exist fifty years ago. I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of the progress that we've seen at

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Speaker 1: chipping away at the pay gap in women's sports is

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Speaker 1: from the athletes themselves and not necessarily the executives or

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Speaker 1: the leagues. It requires the athletes to either take these

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Speaker 1: teams or these governing bodies to court or their players

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Speaker 1: unions to really battle in the boardroom at the table

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Speaker 1: to really bargain for what they deserve. Thankfully, it seems

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the commissioners and the leagues are

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Speaker 1: listening right now, and I think that's turning into the

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Speaker 1: fact that we're seeing these minimum salaries go up and

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Speaker 1: we're seeing these settlements. And it also turns then to

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Speaker 1: investors and finding people on Madison Avenue willing to put

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Speaker 1: in money to these leagues, into these teams and see

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Speaker 1: these athletes to give them the investment that they deserve.

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Speaker 1: The n c AS Name, Image and Likeness Rule has

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Speaker 1: been a massive success for women. About two thirds of

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Speaker 1: the n I L deals have gone to men, but

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Speaker 1: through March, the non football deals have gone to women.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at the breakdown of college athletes

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Speaker 1: who have n i L deals. Women's basketball is second

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Speaker 1: behind football, and then women's volleyball, women swimming and diving,

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Speaker 1: and softball or within the top six, and that's of

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Speaker 1: all sports. The n i L deals are giving them

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Speaker 1: a resource that they never had before. You think about

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Speaker 1: it a lot with some of the Olympic sports as well.

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Speaker 1: College gymnastics had a huge boom this season because of

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Speaker 1: the n i L deals that they were allowed to make.

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Speaker 1: If she's sick this dismount it could be another ten

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Speaker 1: for studies a lead conto. So I think in a

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Speaker 1: way it keeps some of the really star athletes in

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Speaker 1: college because they can start making that money that they

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Speaker 1: deserve a little sooner. But it's also just recognizing the

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Speaker 1: women who only for so long have college as the

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Speaker 1: final stopping point to make at least some money from

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Speaker 1: the sports that they're playing. I think we are not

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Speaker 1: close to seeing women athletes being paid the same as men.

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Speaker 1: I think I saw a graphic this week that Lebron

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Speaker 1: james Is salary this season was three times as much

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Speaker 1: as the entire w NBA salary for the whole season,

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Speaker 1: which is absurd. I do think these last couple of

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Speaker 1: years have been really encouraging though that things are moving

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Speaker 1: in the right direction. When it comes to closing the

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Speaker 1: pay gap, it's still an upward battle, but it seems

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Speaker 1: it feels a little less deep because people are finally

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Speaker 1: starting to look at it a bit differently. And what

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Speaker 1: it's going to take is just more exposure, more promotion.

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Speaker 1: It just needs to be a bit more of the

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Speaker 1: every day and not a special event. These are athletes

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Speaker 1: who are putting their entire careers and bodies and souls

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Speaker 1: into the sports that they play, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: times we don't see that full commitment like we do

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Speaker 1: with men's sports, and you can't just expect things to

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Speaker 1: change overnight, especially when we do live in a patriarchal society.

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Speaker 1: We need to find these certain subjects and chip away

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Speaker 1: at the issues. It is burdensome and it's frustrating to

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Speaker 1: think that it does have to be done, but you

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Speaker 1: have to start somewhere. You can't see true equality without

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Speaker 1: doing these smaller battles. First, my name is Jamie Losanti

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Speaker 1: and I am the assistant managing editor of Special Projects.

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Speaker 1: As Sports Illustrated fifty years post o nine. I really

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Speaker 1: feel like for women's sports media coverage. This is a

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Speaker 1: huge turning point moment in Now that we've passed the

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Speaker 1: anniversary and we've got six seven months of women's sports

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Speaker 1: under our belt, it's more evident than ever that this

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Speaker 1: is a big point in time for leagues, for women,

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Speaker 1: for the media outlets, for everyone across the board. The

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Speaker 1: anniversary is definitely a celebration worthy, but there's also so

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Speaker 1: much more progress to be made right now. The sports

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Speaker 1: industry realizes that there's an appetite for women's sports and

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Speaker 1: people are hungry for it, and they're getting really frustrated

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Speaker 1: by the fact that they can't find things. But on

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Speaker 1: the flip side, when they do put women's sports front

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Speaker 1: and center, the proof is there. If you give them

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Speaker 1: the opportunity to watch it, women will match or even

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Speaker 1: beat what men's sports are doing ratings wise and viewership wise,

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Speaker 1: and even the tenants wise. I think the Euros are

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Speaker 1: sort of the best example because it was sold out,

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Speaker 1: everyone was watching, and now all of a sudden, the

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Speaker 1: USA England Friendly that's going to happen in October immediately

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Speaker 1: sold out and people are like, Okay, when can I watch? Right,

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Speaker 1: there's this renewed interest which is really well timed ahead

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Speaker 1: of Women's World Cup in the summer. In the next

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Speaker 1: few years, both the NWSL and the w n b

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Speaker 1: A are going to have the opportunity to renegotiate their

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Speaker 1: broadcast contracts. So right now both leagues are locked into

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Speaker 1: these seals, and whether it's with ESPN or other big partners,

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Speaker 1: the games are on TV, you can watch them. But

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of frustration by fans, players, owners, teams,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. That the games are there, but they're sometimes

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Speaker 1: on at strange times, and they're sometimes hard to find,

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Speaker 1: and maybe they're also overlapping with other big sporting events,

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Speaker 1: particularly men's sporting events. The renegotiation of these broadcast deals

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Speaker 1: is going to be a huge factor increasing visibility and

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Speaker 1: accessibility for fans. Again, the appetite is their fans have

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Speaker 1: proven that they want to watch women's sports. So I

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Speaker 1: think we're going to see these major leagues start to

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Speaker 1: have super lucrative deals, but deals that also allow fans

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Speaker 1: to watch on many different channels, or on channels that

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Speaker 1: are just easier to find, part of packages, more streaming

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Speaker 1: options things like that. I think fans have proven that

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Speaker 1: when there's something big on TV, whether it's a women's match,

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Speaker 1: men's match, whatever it is, if you give them that

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Speaker 1: prime time, you'll capture that prime time audience. So I

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Speaker 1: think that will be a huge factor in visibility. In

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Speaker 1: accessibility for me are the two most important ones that

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Speaker 1: broadcasters and leagues need to figure out to get the

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Speaker 1: product out there. And on the flip side, places like

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated can start to tell the story of these

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Speaker 1: women and their personalities, and we can get to know

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Speaker 1: the women both in competition and we can see crazy

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Speaker 1: highlights and we can really get engaged in the competition,

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Speaker 1: but then also get to know them and their personalities

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Speaker 1: and what they stand for and all of the things

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Speaker 1: that we attached to with men's sports. In a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways, we talk about cultural acceptance or the idea

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Speaker 1: of the mainstream fan embracing a female athlete versus a

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Speaker 1: male athlete. I think when you see something, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot easier to kind of quote unquote accepted, and then

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Speaker 1: that personality angle really can bring people down to a

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Speaker 1: personable level where you can kind of feel connected to

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Speaker 1: an athlete in a lot of ways. I like to

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Speaker 1: think of myself as a positive person, so I'm hopeful

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Speaker 1: because doing all of this research and learning and hearing

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Speaker 1: from the women of fifty years ago who were coming

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Speaker 1: up at this time of Title nine, there has been

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Speaker 1: already so much progress, And because I feel like with

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Speaker 1: the anniversary of Title nine and everything that's been happening

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Speaker 1: in women's sports and just generally in our country, I

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Speaker 1: feel like this is a turning point. This is a

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Speaker 1: big moment, and I don't think the sports industry, the

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Speaker 1: money makers, the stakeholders of people who are involved here

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Speaker 1: that steer the ship in a way. I don't think

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Speaker 1: they will let this fall through. I think this is

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Speaker 1: the moment where things start to climb. Is it going

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Speaker 1: to happen a straight shot? Not at all. I don't

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Speaker 1: think so. I think we'll have some issues where there's

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Speaker 1: a game at the same time of a really big

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Speaker 1: men's event, or something gets bumped onto ESPN to These

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Speaker 1: things are going to happen, but hopefully less so as

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Speaker 1: we continue to go along. My name is Emma Bachelory.

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Speaker 1: I'm a staff writer a Sports Illustrated where I primarily

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Speaker 1: cover baseball, but also women's sports, including women's college basketball

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Speaker 1: and college football. If you'd like to buy an NBA

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Speaker 1: jersey and you log onto NBA dot com and navigate

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Speaker 1: to the store, you'll see that you can buy pretty

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Speaker 1: much any jersey you want. There are two thousands, seven

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Speaker 1: and seven currently available for sale, which includes every single

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Speaker 1: player in the league, any size you want, youth, adult, men's, women's, home, away,

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Speaker 1: alternate jerseys, plenty of options two thousand, seven and seven.

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Speaker 1: If you'd like a w NBA jersey, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you navigate to w NBA dot com to the store

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Speaker 1: section and you'll see forty five jerseys, not forty five

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Speaker 1: players whose jersey are is available for sale. Forty five jerseys,

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Speaker 1: which includes multiple options for a handful of the biggest

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Speaker 1: stars like super and Diana Trassi, and none at all

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Speaker 1: for many others. If fans want a jersey for a

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Speaker 1: favorite player, they might have to do a more expensive

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Speaker 1: customized option because the jerseys simply aren't made. In reporting this,

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Speaker 1: I talked to Tyrone Palmer. It's the Chicago Sky fan

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Speaker 1: was followed the team for years. He was very excited

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Speaker 1: when the team won the w NBA Finals last year

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Speaker 1: and decided it was finally time for him to pick

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Speaker 1: up a Colleia Copper jersey. She was named Finals MVP.

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Speaker 1: This is her fifth season, but the Sky her sixth

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Speaker 1: season in the w n b A. He assumed it

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Speaker 1: would be easy to get a jersey. You know, she's

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Speaker 1: been on this team for a while, she's been in

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Speaker 1: the league even longer. Why wouldn't you be able to

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Speaker 1: get a jersey of the Finals m v P. And

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Speaker 1: yet he found out that it was impossible. It just

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Speaker 1: wasn't available. He was looking looking five surely after winning

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Speaker 1: Finals MVP, something is going to change here, and it didn't.

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Speaker 1: The fact that that wasn't available was just frustrating. He

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Speaker 1: knew he wasn't alone. That he wanted to give his

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Speaker 1: money to the league. He wanted to support his favorite team,

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Speaker 1: a player that he loved, and it just wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: The league has said it would be working on this

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Speaker 1: for a while. This last year has kind of made

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Speaker 1: it into a tipping point, and so finally, eventually Cleo

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Speaker 1: Copper jerseys were made available, putting stock on the league's website,

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Speaker 1: and Tyrone Palmer was finally able to get his hands

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Speaker 1: on a jersey. This is a complicated, multilayered issue. The

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Speaker 1: league has said that they're interested in making a change

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Speaker 1: here and we have seen more investment in the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years, but they only got their first major

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Speaker 1: merch partner in exporting goods two years ago. The last

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Speaker 1: two years have obviously been kind of a fraud time

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Speaker 1: for supply chains for trying to build out new products.

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Speaker 1: There are complicated moving pieces there that it takes a

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Speaker 1: while to get something up and running. But I do

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Speaker 1: think part of it is not realizing what the demand

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Speaker 1: this off the ground, even as you had fans clamoring

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Speaker 1: please let me give you money. I want to buy

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Speaker 1: a jersey, I want options. I will do what it

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Speaker 1: takes to be able to wrap my team, my favorite player.

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Speaker 1: Just let me pay you for that. Those voices were

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Speaker 1: being heard on social media. You here it out arenas,

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Speaker 1: and it took a really long time for them to

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Speaker 1: recognize that, Okay, this is an actual demand. There's a

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Speaker 1: constituency in w n B, a fan base that wants this,

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Speaker 1: and it's worth going out and trying to meet it.

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Speaker 1: I think this is a situation where yes and raw

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Speaker 1: numbers the fan bases here are much smaller than what

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Speaker 1: you might see in older and more established leagues that

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Speaker 1: have that kind of big mainstream popularity in many men's sports.

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Speaker 1: But even though the fan bases can be smaller, they're

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Speaker 1: so passionate because they've had to really fight to get

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Speaker 1: access to the sport they want to see. You can't

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Speaker 1: accidentally walk into becoming a fan of women's sports. It's

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Speaker 1: usually you have to make a conscious choice, like this

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Speaker 1: isn't in prime time, this isn't on basic cable. I

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Speaker 1: have to go seek this out. I have to put

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Speaker 1: in the effort to to follow this, to establish this fandom.

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Speaker 1: It's not the sort of thing that you can just

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Speaker 1: pick up by osmosis. There's real dedication here for a

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Speaker 1: lot of these fans. I'm Julie Kligman and I'm the

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Speaker 1: copy chief Sports Illustrated. I also report on mental health

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Speaker 1: and trans athletes. This might make me sound really cynical,

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Speaker 1: but I think the landscape for trains athletes right now

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Speaker 1: it's kind of bleak. It's very daunting. There are so

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Speaker 1: many states more than fifteen that currently banded trains athletes

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Speaker 1: from participating on it might be the middle school level,

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Speaker 1: at high school level, the college level. Most of those

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Speaker 1: laws are targeted at girls and women but there are

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Speaker 1: laws targeted at boys and men too, And so the

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Speaker 1: question is who has the right to be a woman

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Speaker 1: under Title nine? And that's at the center of all

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Speaker 1: of this, and I think we have a long way

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Speaker 1: to go if we want to prioritize inclusion in those spaces.

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Speaker 1: Title nine is a little murky with regard to trans athletes.

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Speaker 1: There's been a similar ruling on Title seven that does

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Speaker 1: apply to gender based discrimination in a separate area, not

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Speaker 1: about sports. Title seven prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex,

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Speaker 1: and now sational origin. Is that a one to one

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Speaker 1: where you can kind of like port that over to

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Speaker 1: Title nine? Not necessarily Obviously, advocates think yes, and people

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Speaker 1: who oppose trans rights think no. And upon taking office,

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Speaker 1: President Biden said that Title nine does prohibit gender based discrimination,

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Speaker 1: but that doesn't really go far enough to answer the question.

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Speaker 1: So the question is kind of unresolved as to how

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Speaker 1: Title nine addresses this issue. Anti trans proponents have said

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Speaker 1: that protecting Title nine is what they're doing when they

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Speaker 1: ban trains athletes from participation. When they talk about protecting women,

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Speaker 1: they're really talking about cis gender women and girls, not

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Speaker 1: transgender women and girls. Regardless of how you want to

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Speaker 1: read Title nine or what your interpretation of it is,

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Speaker 1: this is clear lead discrimination based on gender identity. Celebrations

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Speaker 1: of Title nine honestly rang a little bit hollow to

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Speaker 1: me for this reason because I think it was the

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Speaker 1: very next day that some restrictions on trans athletes started

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Speaker 1: coming down. Yeah, we're talking about how conditions have improved

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Speaker 1: for certain categories of women and certain categories of people,

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Speaker 1: and Title nine has a long way to go with

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Speaker 1: regard to all female athletes. I don't think many people

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Speaker 1: would dispute that that there's still gains to be made.

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Speaker 1: The stakes in the Title nine debate are really high

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Speaker 1: for trans athletes. It's been shown scientifically that even when

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Speaker 1: these quote unquote debates happen around their identity, that's detrimental

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Speaker 1: to their mental health, let alone actually being banned and

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Speaker 1: p ended from, honestly just on most levels, recreational activities

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Speaker 1: with their friends. That's really serious. A lot of queer

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Speaker 1: youth don't participate in sports to begin with because they

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Speaker 1: don't feel welcome, and this is only exacerbating that issue.

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Speaker 1: I think the important thing to note here is that

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Speaker 1: transgender people are people. Trans athletes are athletes. We do

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Speaker 1: best in sports when we invite the full range of

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Speaker 1: competition and make everybody feel welcome. And that's the first

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Speaker 1: and foremost goal of sports on almost every level is

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Speaker 1: to have fun, and on the Olympic and pro levels,

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Speaker 1: it's about facing the best competition you could possibly face.

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Speaker 1: So I don't see why we want to encourage that.

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Speaker 1: Mainstream acceptance is a really amorphous concept, But I think

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Speaker 1: the big thing is just feeling like a woman's sports fan.

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Speaker 1: Anyone who wants to watch women's sports can just see

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Speaker 1: it as an accepted part of the sports landscape, not

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Speaker 1: its own little niche or silo. We've seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of steps towards that in the last couple of years,

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Speaker 1: I think with what's on TV social media, I think

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Speaker 1: has been really great for harnessing the energy of fans

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Speaker 1: who want to see that, who are excited to show

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Speaker 1: up when it's put out there for them, of bringing

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Speaker 1: in new fans who are recognizing there is something here

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Speaker 1: that I want to engage with. So we've seen a

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Speaker 1: lot of strides toward it, I think, but there's still

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Speaker 1: just a long way to go to having that feel

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Speaker 1: like the accepted norm. It's not just about women in sports.

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Speaker 1: It's about women in society and women in other forms

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Speaker 1: of media, whether it's movies or TV shows or music

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Speaker 1: or anything. This doesn't happen in a vacuum, right, But

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Speaker 1: I do think that part of the reason you have

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Speaker 1: seen change in the last couple of years is as

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Speaker 1: you've also seen change in other areas in terms of

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Speaker 1: women having a seat at the table, women getting more

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Speaker 1: representation in different areas of business, of media, all of

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Speaker 1: that um that all built on each other. So even

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Speaker 1: if it's not sports specific, I think you see kind

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Speaker 1: of a humulation effect. The Sports Bar is a bar

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Speaker 1: in Portland, organ that only shows women's sports. It was

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Speaker 1: really cool and exciting to have this conversation with the owner, Jenny,

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Speaker 1: who started this because it was something that she felt

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Speaker 1: she wanted and didn't have access to. She was tired

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Speaker 1: of going to a bar with friends, and the tipping

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Speaker 1: point for her was going on the name of the

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Speaker 1: Woman's Final Four a few years ago and having to

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Speaker 1: ask can this please be put on a TV? And

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Speaker 1: you get one TV in the corner with no sound,

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Speaker 1: and just feeling like there are enough fans out there

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Speaker 1: who would come to just to watch the Women's Final Four,

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Speaker 1: to watch women's college basketball, women's sports in general. There's

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Speaker 1: an audience there who would want to feel like there's

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Speaker 1: a place for them to feel like there's a kind

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Speaker 1: of environment that not just tolerates women's sports fans, but

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Speaker 1: welcomes them and caters to them and recognizes them as

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Speaker 1: their own group. She was someone who has a lot

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Speaker 1: of experience working in kitchens. She's primarily a chef, but

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Speaker 1: decided she was going to take a leap and open

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Speaker 1: her own place and have it be a sports bar

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Speaker 1: that only shows women's sports. There are lots of expected

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Speaker 1: challenges with opening up your own establishment and obviously not

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Speaker 1: an industry with lots of room for error, but one

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Speaker 1: of the things that surprised her was that the hardest

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Speaker 1: part was how do you feel a calendar with just

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Speaker 1: women's sports that even though there were lots of sports

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Speaker 1: out there, in terms of what's actually on TV, it's

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Speaker 1: not like there is a women's sports cable package the

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Speaker 1: same way you can do the NFL Sunday package. Like

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Speaker 1: these options are just presented out there for fans. You

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Speaker 1: really had to hunt down one sport at a time.

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Speaker 1: Some of these aren't on cauble. Some of these are

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Speaker 1: on Twitch on smaller platforms where you have to access

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Speaker 1: in a different way when you're going to show them

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Speaker 1: at a bar, So it was surprisingly complicated to have

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Speaker 1: to fill out how do we actually make sure we

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Speaker 1: have something on whenever someone walks into the bar we

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Speaker 1: have a women's sport on TV. I'm really hopeful by

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Speaker 1: what we've seen over the last few years, the viewership

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Speaker 1: numbers that we've seen for women's college basketball, for women's

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Speaker 1: college softball, women's soccer, the NWUSL, the US women's national team.

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Speaker 1: Those numbers do give me a lot of hope that

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Speaker 1: people have recognized when you put this out there, there

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Speaker 1: are a lot of people who want to tune in

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Speaker 1: and watch, but it's it's more complicated did than that

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Speaker 1: they think the last few years have been inspiring and heartening,

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Speaker 1: there's still a long way to go. Well, I don't

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Speaker 1: think we're there yet. Thanks for listening, and a reminder

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Speaker 1: to please rate and review the show. It helps people

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Speaker 1: find us. Sports Illustrated Weekly is a production of Sports

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Speaker 1: Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your favorite shows, and for more

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts, visit SI dot com.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced by Jessica Armoski,

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Speaker 1: Jordan Rozsieri, and Isaac Lee, who was also our sound engineer.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producers are Dan Bloom and Harry sward Out.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez.

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Speaker 1: Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider and if you've

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Speaker 1: stuck around this song, we leave you with this. I

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Speaker 1: have been athletes since I was four years old because

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Speaker 1: my mom put me in everything she could when I

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Speaker 1: was younger because I had way too much energy and

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Speaker 1: she couldn't deal with me. So she found everything that

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Speaker 1: she could sign me up for and was basically like,

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Speaker 1: get this child out of my house