1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hi, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 1: I am Tracy be Wilson and I'm Holly Frying. I 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: am extremely excited about who we're talking about today. Me too. 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: It's one of those people who is a figure in 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: American history that some people may believe incorrectly to be mythical, 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: but was in fact real, and that is Johnny Appleseed. Yeah, 8 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: we learned about him as elementary school kids, but we 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: really only get a very weird, brief sliver of the 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: reality of his life. Yes, it's a slipper that almost 11 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: makes him a caricature of himself. People imagine if you 12 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: say Johnny Appleseed, whether people think he's real or make believe, 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: probably going to imagine a guy walking around in rags 14 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: or skins, barefooted, with a sack full of apple seeds, sleep, 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: being out under the stars and planning his apple trees 16 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: and then moving on. Well, I've seen the cartoons. That's 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 1: how it is basically accurate. At the same time, there's 18 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: a whole, much broader element of his life that had 19 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: nothing to do uh. Some people think of him as 20 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: the first sort of one of the first conservationists. It's 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: really possible to also look at him as a very 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: failed capitalist, and we're going to talk about that today. 23 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: It's interesting because he's one of those that we don't 24 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: really know a whole lot about his early life. No, 25 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 1: we do know that he was born on September seventy 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: four in Leminster, Massachusetts, and his parents were Elizabeth Simon's 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: Chapman and Nathaniel Chapman. And though he had an older 28 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: sister named Elizabeth, he also had other siblings. Eventually, um 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: he had a younger brother named Nathaniel, and his mother 30 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: died just a few weeks after Nathaniel was born, and 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: then the younger Nathaniel sadly also died just after that. 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,640 Speaker 1: And that was when Johnny was He wasn't quite too 33 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 1: just a toddler. Yes, it was pretty unclear exactly where 34 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: Elizabeth and john went at that point. Uh, their father 35 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: was serving as one of the minutemen. He fought at 36 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: Bunker Hill and he was not home until so they 37 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: were living with someone, presumably, but we don't know who. 38 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: It's clear that there were relatives in that part of 39 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: New England. If you look back far enough into New 40 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: England history, pretty much everyone is related to everyone at 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: some point, so they had plenty of relatives in the 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: area where they lived. We're just not sure who wound 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: up taking care of them. Until one when dad came home, 44 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: uh from from the service. He was released, along with 45 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: several other officers, with the description of unsatisfactory management of 46 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: the military stores. Uh. He went home without getting a 47 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: pension or land, which was often a thing when you 48 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: were When you got out of the service, you would 49 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: get a pension or end that was sort of your payment. Um. 50 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: He gotten either of those, but he did get a 51 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: year's pay. So some people have looked at this as 52 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of evidence that that his dad was kind of shiftless, right. 53 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: But at the same time, the armory itself had outlived 54 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: its usefulness a little bit, so it may have been 55 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: more like a layoff than a firing for truly bad behavior. Yeah. 56 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: I think always here unsatisfactory management. We think there must 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: have been something dicey going on, but it really could 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: have just been part of things kind of shutting down 59 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: naturally as right. Um, But Nathaniel did remarry. Uh. He 60 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: married Lisa Cooley and then the family lived in Long Meadow, 61 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: which is south of Springfield, Massachusetts, and it grew and grew, 62 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: it grew so much, which is a little bit unfortunate 63 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: because Nathaniel was not the greatest with things like money 64 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: or farming. But Lisa was very often pregnant, and she 65 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: gave birth to ten more children between see and eighteen 66 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: o three. So that's ten children in twenty one and 67 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: a half years. That is not, in itself a surprising 68 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: number of children for the era. What is a little 69 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 1: more surprising is that they all seemed to have survived 70 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: until adulthood. And they were sharing a four hundred square 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: foot house with an attict for sleeping in. That's tight. 72 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: It's not a lot of room, uh, And so there 73 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: at some point, most likely because of a combination of 74 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people in a little space and the 75 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: alluring prospect of land that you could get for cheap 76 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: out west, and probably not a lot of money around 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: the house, John and his younger brother Nathaniel, who was 78 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: eleven or fifteen at the time, left. The dates are 79 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: little n clear. It was either seventeen or seventeen ninety six, 80 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: depending on the accounts. Very there's a lot of the 81 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: accounts vary in this story, so John was either eighteen 82 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 1: or twenty two. His half brother Nathaniel was either eleven 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: or fifteen. They left Massachusetts together and trave old to 84 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: western Pennsylvania at some point in that era. Also, uh, 85 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: there is a story. It's hard to substantiate a lot 86 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: of this because medical records were not very clear at 87 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: the time, but there's a story that John was kicked 88 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: in the head by a horse at age twenty one, 89 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: and that the injury was severe enough that he had 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: to have part of his skull removed to relieve the pressure, 91 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: which is a valid treatment for that kind of injury, 92 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: but still at the time, that's pretty primitive medical time. 93 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: I'm I'm making the scrunched up chills in my spine face. 94 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: But right there there are people who attribute his later 95 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: eccentricities to having had this injury. That makes sense, but 96 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: since it's not well documented, we can't know for sure. 97 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: Together they left, I kind of imagine John kind of 98 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: going and it's too crowded in here. We have no money. 99 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,559 Speaker 1: Let we we can get some land if we go west, 100 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: So let's do that. Yeah, And it was you know, 101 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: up just beyond the Ohio River was the frontier, and 102 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: many people were making near land grabs. They knew that 103 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: there was potential property to be hand, but it was 104 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,679 Speaker 1: very dangerous. Animals, snakes, other people, a lots other people 105 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: of every sort. Uh. They're sort of a perception that 106 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: the other people threat was Native Americans who were justifiably 107 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: h defending their land, but also everyone, yeah, other settlers 108 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,559 Speaker 1: that were trying to make their own way and trying 109 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: to protect what they perceived as their opportunities. Uh. And 110 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 1: so there was also a lot of illness and injury, 111 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: presumably some of them from interactions with other people. And 112 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: there wasn't really much in the way of medical care. 113 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: In addition to the fact that the medical care at 114 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: the time was was often not sound from a scientific perspective. 115 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: There just weren't a lot of doctors on the frontier. 116 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: There were a few people who had actual medical training. 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: So if you got stick or hurt on the frontier, 118 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: you might die of something that in a city would 119 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: have been more pop uh. And they so people and 120 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: the government were buy or trade land from the Native 121 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: Americans and then turn around and sell it for a 122 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: huge profit or divide it up like it was the 123 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: original flipping model. Uh. And sometimes Congress would grant businesses 124 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: the rights to divide up and dole out the land 125 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: for money or in exchange for residency and improvement requirements, 126 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: so things like orchards developing orchards uh and that you 127 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: know was intended to keep people from flipping from just 128 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: reselling their stuff really quickly, like they actually wanted development 129 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: and progress and not just money turnovers. Yes, apples themselves 130 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: were important at the time. We think of apples today 131 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: is what we eat in pies and and just eating 132 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: them and delicious things to eat. If you have ever 133 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: seen the Disney Johnny apple Seed cartoon, there's a lot 134 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: of talk about ways to eat apples. Eating apples was 135 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: not in the primary concern at the time at all. 136 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: Cider was a lot more important. There would be like 137 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: little scrubby apples that were kind of bitter that would 138 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: be pressed into UH cider or made into vinegar. A 139 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: lot of people were planning apples. And while they could 140 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: be dried out and stored for the winter and serve 141 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: as a source of nourishment, that wasn't their primary use. 142 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 1: The primary use was cider, hard cider and apple jack. 143 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: It was about drunkenness. And then it is important to 144 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: just take that that moment to note that I think 145 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 1: we petically American school children are taught like that. He 146 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: sort of brought apples to the world. It was like, 147 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 1: look at this wonderful thing I can bring you, But 148 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: in fact everyone was trying to grow apples right that one. 149 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: They weren't really that wonderful at that point. They were 150 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: kind of gross to eat that they did not taste 151 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: very good. They were not the big, juicy, yummy things 152 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: we find supermarket. There were lots of other apple people 153 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: and a lots of lots of other orchard people. Uh. 154 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: His personality and things that he did just make him 155 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: particularly memorable in the world of orchard planting in those 156 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 1: days of the frontier. He was also just he had 157 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: a knack for figuring out where people were going to 158 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 1: go next. So he would get seeds from Pennsylvania in 159 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: the winter by picking through the refuse at the cider presses. 160 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: He would sort of pick through, uh, this pulpy stuff 161 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: that was left over after they made cider. He would 162 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: gather up all these seeds and then he would head 163 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: west and he would plant the seeds. He would use 164 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,839 Speaker 1: um the brush he had cleared and possibly other brush 165 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: to make offense to keep animals out, and then he 166 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: would go away. And when people made it into that 167 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: territory that year, the following year there would already be 168 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: apple seedlings growing on the land which they could buy 169 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: from Chapman. Uh So he was a stute in that regard. 170 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: He was super stute in that regard. Had he actually 171 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: turned that into a business model. Well, in a way, 172 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: he did turn it into a that was sort of 173 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,319 Speaker 1: his business model, but he didn't really care about money. 174 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: It was more of an apple making model than a 175 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: money making model, right. He gave a lot of seedlings away. Basically, 176 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: if you were moving on to land that you were 177 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,319 Speaker 1: hoping to make your own and you could not afford 178 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: your apple seedlings, Johnny Apples would give them to you. 179 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: He also if he saw horses that were being mistreated, 180 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 1: he would buy them from you and then put them 181 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: out to pasture. So endearing, he was very endearing. He 182 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: just I read a book that we'll talk more about 183 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: at the end of the podcast. In this and the 184 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: writer compared him to Andrew Carnegie, except that Andrew Carnegie 185 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: amassed wealth and then gave it away, and Johnny applese 186 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: just gave away all the wealth as he got it, 187 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: so he never actually had a lot because he was 188 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: giving it all away, no accumulation. It's kind of charming, 189 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: but not really effective if your goal is actually to 190 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: to own anything, which apparently wasn't his goal, and if 191 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: it was a goaling didn't do it very well. Uh. 192 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: We don't really know his exact route through that part 193 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: of the world. We sort of know generally that he 194 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: went from New York into Pennsylvania and then started moving 195 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: into Ohio and Indiana. Uh. Several people have tried to 196 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: kind of recreate the route that he followed um, with 197 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: varying success. There's not a lot of actual documentation surviving 198 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: about his life at the time. Well, and even the 199 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: documentation is largely based on word of mouth, so it's 200 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: accuracy is not verifiable. It's it's yes, And in some 201 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 1: cases we know that the people who were supplying these 202 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: oral accounts were not necessarily all that trustworthy as historians. 203 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: So because a lot of the travel that he was 204 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: doing was ahead of the the influx of settlers, there 205 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: weren't really roads, it would be sort of hard going. 206 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: A lot of the actual written detail that we have 207 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: comes from trading post ledgers, and one of the first 208 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: of these is in seventeen nine seven in Warren, Pennsylvania, 209 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: at which point John and Nathaniel were recorded to be 210 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: there to buy things. Some of the things that he 211 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 1: bought included a spike gemlet, which is a tool that 212 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: he could have used for all kinds of things out 213 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: on the frontier. It was a very multi use tool. 214 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: He also bought books, cheese, and sundries and that truly 215 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: need your books in your chief. Man. If I had 216 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: books and cheese, I would be set. So yeah, he 217 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: that's we know that he was in Warren at that time. 218 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: There are other trading post ledger records of his movements, 219 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: but not enough to really piece together. This is exactly 220 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: how he traveled and when, and there is some belief 221 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,599 Speaker 1: that his first orchard was actually near Warren on the 222 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: Allegheny River. Warren was very small, not having great luck. 223 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: A storm had knocked down all the trees, a fire 224 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: burned up all the dead wood, and then the relationship 225 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: between the settlers and the Native Americans in the area 226 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: got really hostile. It was not really the most welcome 227 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: ing or perfect place. There was pretty much one person 228 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 1: living there when they got there. Uh. That was Dan 229 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: McKay or McQuay. He worked for the Holland Company, which 230 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: was one of the agencies that was dividing up and 231 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: selling off land. UM. He may have employed the Chapman 232 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: Brothers to kind of guard the land against squatters and 233 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: timber thieves. But it's a little unclear whether he was 234 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: actually working for this man or or if they just 235 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 1: knew each other. Um. But according to writings of Lancing 236 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: Wetmore UH and the Warren Ledger, john eventually picked a 237 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: location for a nursery in se Uh. This is another 238 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: example of we don't really know how accurate this person's 239 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: report was. He was a lawyer and a judge and 240 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,840 Speaker 1: was pretty well respected at the time, but he was 241 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: also really fond of a good story. Um. And we 242 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: know from other accounts that there are things that he 243 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 1: got completely wrong, so discredits him a little telling a 244 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: little bit. But probably the orchard that Johnny apples he 245 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: planted was near Warren uh sometime around so we know 246 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: Johnny wanted land, and he did buy plenty of land, 247 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: but he didn't stay on it to fulfill the terms 248 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: of his claims or claim jumpers got in there and 249 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: took it from him. Right. Uh, So he had skill 250 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: and you know, acumen for planting things, but not so 251 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 1: much with the patients. No, he didn't stick through with things. 252 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: He would sign nine year leases on stuff and then 253 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: either not pay the bills or not fulfill the residency 254 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: requirements to to keep that lease. So there he did 255 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: a lot of getting land and then the land would 256 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: fall out of his hands. Um. He was also choosing 257 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: the hardest way to grow apples. Uh. The an easier 258 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: way to grow apples is to graft cuttings of apples 259 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: onto rootstock. And that's pretty much how apple cultivation happens. Now, 260 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: what he was doing because he felt that it was 261 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: kinder on the plants and that it was in fact 262 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: wicked to it up plants to graph them onto things. 263 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: What he was doing is planting seeds that there's a 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: number of reasons why that is not the best way 265 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: to cultivate apples. Yeah, I mean I have done some 266 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: apple seedlings, and they are difficult, and they don't bear 267 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: fruit often very well for a long time. They tend 268 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: to grow so big that it's hard to harvest from them, 269 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: and it takes them a very long time to actually 270 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: put out apples, and then the apples that they do 271 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: put out. It's really a mix of what you're gonna get. 272 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: Apple seeds are pretty cool because they're heterozygous, so they 273 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: have the code, the genetic code for all kinds of 274 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: different apples in one seed. You don't really know which 275 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: of those jeans are going to express when the tree 276 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: is growing, so you might plant seeds from a delicious 277 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: apple and get disgusting apples. Yeah, there are so many 278 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: factors that go into something like that, from like the 279 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: soil pH you know what kind of winters and summers 280 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: it has when it's young, like if it has a drought, 281 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: that will effect what is produced. So it is it's 282 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: a very unpredictable and difficult way to get fruit, right. 283 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: But on the other side of that, seeds are a 284 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: lot more flexible and when you can plant them you 285 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: can really only graft in the spring, but you can 286 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: plant seeds sort of nine months out of the year. Uh. 287 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: And because of what we said before, those little bitter, 288 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: very tough tart apples were in high demand for making 289 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: vinegar and cider, and also those things were in demand 290 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: because vinegar was considered to be medicinal uh And because 291 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: out on the frontier there was not a lot to do. 292 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: People were very interested in drinking, so it didn't matter 293 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: so much if you produce delicious fruits, just as long 294 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: as you were producing something that could be used in 295 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: some way to cider. Yes. Uh so some he sold, 296 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: as you said, and some he gave away. I also wonder, 297 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: going back to his various pieces of property, how many 298 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: people just inherited, you know, predeveloped apple right because it 299 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: just never went because he just a and in the spot. 300 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: There are a lot of records that survive, whether it's 301 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: because bookkeeping with sloppy or just you know, time has 302 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: kind of erased some of the German documents. But the 303 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: oral history it's pretty unanimous in that if you couldn't 304 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: afford trees, he would just give them to you. And 305 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: the lack of records is a problem in terms of 306 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: tracking many things. You know, his sale of seedlings, his land, 307 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: his forfeits of the land, whether or not, and this 308 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: is getting into some interesting elements of the story. He 309 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: was actually a minister or a missionary of the Church 310 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 1: of New Jerusalem. The Church of the New Jerusalem is 311 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: a church that people may not have heard of now. 312 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: It was also known as the New Church, and it 313 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: was based on Swedish men mystic Emmanuel Swedenborg, who was 314 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: a popular religious figure for about a hundred years following 315 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: his death in seventeen seventy two. The Swedenborg sect was 316 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: really antellectual. He wrote volumes and volumes and volumes about 317 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: his divine revelations and his spiritual thought. He was very 318 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: specific about things. A lot of religious writing can be 319 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of general in describing what God is like or 320 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: what Heaven is like, and he was really down to 321 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: the details and described his religious visions in extreme detail. Uh. 322 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: And he was also very influential. Some of the notable 323 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: people who were influenced by him include William Blake, Charles Baudelaire, 324 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,360 Speaker 1: Garta car Carl Young, William but earlier, Yates, Walt Whitman 325 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: who I love, and Emerson. So he was a very 326 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: influential writer at the time. He had a really strong 327 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: streak of intellectualism. UM his with the church that was 328 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: founded on his teachings, which was known as the New Church. 329 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: UM had sort of areas of the United States that 330 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: was developing at the time that where that was extremely 331 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: popular and it was also very different from a lot 332 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: of the other church going that was happening on the frontier, 333 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: which was much more about tent revivals and that sort 334 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: of thing. And this was a much thinkier sort of religion, 335 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: and Johnny Appleseed embraced it, he really did. He actually 336 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: started preaching the New Church teachings while he traveled about. 337 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: So when he was in Ohio and he would take 338 00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: shelter with people, he would bring them the good news 339 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: straight from Heaven. Yes. Uh. In eighteen twenty nine, a 340 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: fundamentalist preacher named Adam Paine actually asked the crowd, where 341 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: is your barefoot pilgrim now? And John Chapman, dressed in 342 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: rags with unkempt hair, held up a foot and said 343 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 1: here he is, yes, which is so charming. And that's 344 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: sort of an example of the intersection between the more 345 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: tent revival esque religion that was pretty common in a 346 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: lot of that area at the time, and and then 347 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: John Chapman, who was really an outsider and a loner 348 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: and not like that at all. Um he also he 349 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: definitely was not operating in isolation that the New Church 350 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: knew that he was around and knew that he was 351 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: spreading their teachings, um. Because he appears in reports of 352 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: the New Church and in other writings from the church 353 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: starting in around eighteen seventeen, so he was a known 354 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: figure to the church as part of this whole religious focus. 355 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: He was a vegetarian, and he was celibate, as in 356 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: our recent episode about Marjorie Kemp, though he did have 357 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 1: spiritual relationships with people who were not physically present. So 358 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: he was having what we're going to call spiritual intercourse 359 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: um with the spirits of two deceased women who were 360 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: to He was told in a vision that they were 361 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: going to be his companions in the afterlife. This is 362 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: also something that Swedenborg wrote about in his writings. Yeah, 363 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: apparently he had apparently hoped to propose to Nancy Tannehill, 364 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 1: but she was already engaged. That's one of those stories 365 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: that exists about his life that is sort of one 366 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: person's word and and we don't really know if that's 367 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: a true story, but we do know that he he 368 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 1: never got married. He was reported to be celibate for 369 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: his whole life. UM. I don't know if if the 370 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Tannehill story is a true story or not, but 371 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: it is a thing that somebody said about him at 372 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: one point. Yeah, it's a it's a side note in 373 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: the story of his relations with women and with his religion, 374 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: since those all sort of, uh, they contradict each other 375 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. And now we're getting to an era 376 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: that it's often talked about in history but not necessarily 377 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: relation to him, which is the War of eighteen twelve. Yes, 378 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: he was really skilled at walking, like he that's walking 379 00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: was something that he was just great at, and he 380 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: he was reported too often not wear shoes, and he 381 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: walked so much that his feet had these leather like calluses. 382 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: And because he was so good at walking around, and 383 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: because he knew the territory so well, settlers sometimes would 384 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: hire him to kind of keep an eye on things 385 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: as tensions were starting to grow leading up to the 386 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: War of eighteen twelve. UM. At least one time he 387 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: either falsely or mistakenly raised the alarm about incoming troops 388 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: who were going to attack, when it they were actually 389 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: American troops. UM. In spite of that, or maybe because 390 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: this story had not reached where he was, he did 391 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: have a very Paul Revere's Ride esque race for help 392 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: that he reportedly undertook UH in September of eighteen twelve, 393 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: colonel named Colonel Kratzer was going to remove the Native 394 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: American population from southwest Ohio. He convinced a preacher named 395 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: James Compass, who the Native Americans they're trusted, to help 396 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: him move them, like remove them from their homes. He 397 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: did this by saying that he didn't want bloodshed, he 398 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: just wanted to take these people under the protection of 399 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: the government. Uh. The reverend believed him and and convinced 400 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: the people in this one village to move. The response 401 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: of the colonel's troops then was to set their homes 402 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: on fire, and this sparked a lot of problems, understandably 403 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: because that was a terrible thing to do. Uh. There 404 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: were of revenge on both sides. It's kind of a 405 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: long and drawn out story, but there was. You know, 406 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: the one side would ambush another side, and then the 407 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: other side would retaliate, and then on an unfortunate fallout 408 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: from that, a young person would wind up being killed. 409 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: It's a very kind of long and convoluted story. But 410 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,399 Speaker 1: it became clear that things were getting very bad and 411 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: that a full scale attack was incoming, and people were 412 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: very worried and and we're basically like, we need back up, 413 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: and Johnny Appleseed volunteered to be that backup or to 414 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: go for that backup. Um. According to the lore, he 415 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: ran bareheaded and barefooted, leaving at sunset and running through 416 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: the night, running a distance that was effectively a marathon 417 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: there and a marathon back. Holly might know about how 418 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: hard that would be. UM. It's actually more likely that 419 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: he was on horse. But the story is that he 420 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: was on foot running and he would raise the alarm 421 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: at farms and homesteads that he passed on the way, 422 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,120 Speaker 1: UM as he ran to a fort at Mount Vernon 423 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: to get help and to raise the alarm. This whole 424 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: story probably has a fair amount of it's been mythologized. 425 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 1: It's definitely been mythologized. Um. It does appear to be 426 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: a historic thing that actually happened. Probably he was not 427 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: running unfit the whole time. UM, But that really started 428 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 1: to solidify him as a mythic figure, even at the time, 429 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: not just now, even though now that that's a story 430 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: that maybe people outside of that region of the United 431 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: States haven't heard about. But he was becoming a mythic 432 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,160 Speaker 1: figure even while he was alive. Well, that was probably 433 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: aided by the fact that he was a little bit, 434 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: as you said, kind of an odd fellow. He wasn't 435 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: really a mainstream society kind of guy, so he already 436 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: had a bit of a mystique in all likelihood, and 437 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: then that combined with some of these sort of amazing 438 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: tales of his doing, that really is fertile ground to 439 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: create a mythology around someone. Yes, he was very odd 440 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: and very memorable, and usually the because of his pattern 441 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: of moving around, he would move into a place before 442 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people were there, he would do things 443 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: that were memorable, and then the population would start to 444 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: move into this area where he previously had been and 445 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: had already made a name for himself, and they would 446 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: sort of hear these Johnny Appleseed stories. Um. So he 447 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: had a pretty huge reputation, uh in the era in 448 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: which he lived and in the years afterward, and that 449 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: has continued today. People don't necessarily know all these other 450 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: aspects of him, but they most people have heard of 451 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: Johnny Appleseed before. Yeah, and I mean he's got the 452 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: name Johnny Appleseed and John Chapman. So so in eighteen 453 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: o five, his family, UM had moved to Duck Creek, Ohio, 454 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 1: and they were in really rough financial situation. But there 455 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: isn't evidence of whether or not John reunited with them. 456 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 1: He was kind of a loner, as we had said, 457 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: even from the church, even though he supported it and 458 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: spread their teachings. He wasn't really you know, attending socials 459 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: or attending regular right and they're writing about him. Started 460 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: to fall off as he got later in his life 461 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: and maybe increasingly odd in his behavior. UM. So we 462 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 1: don't really know if he was on good terms with 463 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: his family when he died. We we don't really know 464 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: if he had any close relationships at that point. UM. 465 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: But he did die peacefully, but of illness at the 466 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: age of seventy at the home of William Worth in 467 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,439 Speaker 1: His home was north of Fort Wayne, Indiana, and that 468 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: was in March of eighteen forty five. UM. The official 469 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: accounts at the time kind of vary in their specific dates, 470 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: but generally recognize that sometime in the middle of March. UH. 471 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: The cause was known as winter plague, and that was 472 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: sort of a catch all term for various diseases that 473 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: people tended to get more in the winter. UH. There 474 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: was an obituary that ran on March eighteen forty five 475 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: and the Fort Wayne Sentinel. And what is kind of 476 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: striking to me about his death at the age of 477 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 1: seventy is that the life expectancy at the time was 478 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: a little over forty. So he was very very old 479 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: when he passed away. So not at all surprising that 480 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: a man of that advanced age would succumb to winter plague. 481 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: I mean, we'd know, even in modern times, the elderly are, 482 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, at greater risk of even you know, pretty 483 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: minor illnesses that younger people could live through. So to 484 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 1: have been seventies pretty impressive, especially when you consider that 485 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: he spent most of his time wandering around in the woods, 486 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It wasn't like he lived 487 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: a life of luxury and comfort with every possible you know, 488 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: cleanliness applied to his universe, and not even luxury and comfort, 489 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: but just basic medical care and having a home. He 490 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: didn't really have any of that. He did own some 491 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 1: things when he died, and among his his effects after 492 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: his death he had a gray mare, uh, several parcels 493 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: of land, an orchard of two thousand apple trees, and 494 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: various other things. Some of the land got sold off 495 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: to pay the back taxes on that land because he 496 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: had not paid it, which is not surprising um. And 497 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: then the remainder of his possessions were sold off for 498 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: a total of four hundred and nine dollars, which would 499 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 1: come to about nine thousand dollars today. But pretty much 500 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: all of that money went to paying off various things 501 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: that he had owed during his life. Some of these 502 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: claims might have been true, when some of them might 503 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: have been false, but there were people who claims to 504 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: who have to have provided him room and board in 505 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,440 Speaker 1: his later life. He definitely as as his m O 506 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: was kind of to get land, plant things, and leave. 507 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: He definitely did owe money on things. So by the 508 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 1: time all of that was was taken care of, there 509 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: was really no money left In the John Chapman's last 510 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: Johnny attle Sea to state, yeah, he had no fiscal 511 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: legacy to speak of. It is interesting I think that 512 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: the obituary from the church did not appear until two 513 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: years after he had dined. Yes, it was much later. 514 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: Just interesting and I don't think we know why it 515 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: took so long now that if we do, I did 516 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: not find that unless it's just a matter of things 517 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: taking a while to get back to them. Uh. And 518 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: here's another interesting thing about him, which sort of I 519 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: also find oddly endearing. He did a little bit of 520 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: self mythologizing and promoting in terms of his methods. He 521 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: was simultaneously a loner and someone who likes to talk 522 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 1: to people. So he did talk to people, and he 523 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: talked to people about himself. He liked to entertain little children. 524 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: He would entertain little boys by like, uh, poking pins 525 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: into his crazy calloused feet, and and he liked to 526 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: give presents to uh, to children Like he he was 527 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: a person who endeared himself to others. People generally liked 528 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: him a lot, but the way that he talked about 529 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: himself was often sort of selective. Like he he didn't 530 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: really talk about his many many failed purchases of land, 531 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: you know. He talked about being a vegetarian and spreading 532 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: the word of God and and planting apple trees, and 533 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: so he had sort of made himself into an easily 534 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: mythologized person. Uh. But or he became a sort of 535 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 1: mythic character in American history. Even at the time, there 536 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: were people pretty well known people who sort of eulogized him, 537 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: either in in speeches or in print. Uh. There was 538 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: a reported eulogy by Sam Houston, who was a senator. UH. 539 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: That is a little bit suspect. We're not sure if 540 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: that really happened or if it's apocryphal. UH. William T. 541 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: Sherman is one of the people who allegedly, UH spoke 542 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: very highly of Johnny Appleseed later on. Uh. There's also 543 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: a lot of reports that he had a really good 544 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: relationship with many of the Native American tribes in the frontier, 545 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: even when those tribes were really at odds with the settlers. Uh. 546 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: And that is one of those oral history things that 547 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: we don't really have written substantiation of that. That sort 548 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: of the aura that he had was, which was he 549 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: was friendly with everyone, even when the people he was 550 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: friendly with were not friendly with one another. Well, and 551 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: I think that either could be that you get into 552 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: a chicken or the egg thing where it's like, is 553 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: that was that because he was always sort of apart 554 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: from everyone to some degree, Like he wasn't anti social, 555 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: but he wasn't really, as we said, part of a 556 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, social group regularly. So he could kind of 557 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: operate between those two because he didn't have obvious allegiance 558 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: to anyone um or I mean, did he perpetrate that 559 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: and you know, continue that behavior because he recognized that 560 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: it was beneficial. We don't know. Yes. There was also 561 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 1: the part about how he did seem to you in 562 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: a lot of ways because he was not exploiting land. 563 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 1: He was he was sort of tending trees and not 564 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: wanting to harm things, and not wanting to harm animals. 565 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 1: There's the idea that he had a good relationship with 566 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: other cultures that also had a similar mentality. It's kind 567 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: of a misperception that the entirety of Native American history 568 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: was all about conserving the land, but that that definitely 569 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: was a threat in some tribes, and so that's sort 570 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: of a commonality that he had with other people. Also 571 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: that that there have continued to be all kinds of 572 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: other writings about Johnny Appleseen. There was an article in 573 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: Harper's New Monthly about him in eighteen seventy one that 574 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: was extremely lengthy. He was the subject of the poem 575 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: in Praise of Johnny Appleseed by Batchel lindsay In, and 576 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: he's also been in various other poems and films. Um 577 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 1: Disney has a thing from N eight that's about Johnny Appleseed. 578 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: It is just wrong. It's completely wrong. Um. It's one 579 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: of the things that figures prominently in it is that 580 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: he wore a saucepot on his head as a hat. 581 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: There is actually one historical account of him wearing three 582 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: things on his head as hats simultaneously. In the middle 583 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: of them was a saucepan. But I don't think he 584 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: wore a saucepan on his head in con practice. Um. 585 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: So if it is a delightful thing to watch, but 586 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: it is so incorrect in so many ways. Um. There 587 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: are apple or apple holes surviving that are probably descended 588 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: from apple trees that he planted. Apple trees don't live 589 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: hundreds of years, but because people propagate apple trees by 590 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: grafting things, those graphs are clones of the trees that 591 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: they were cut off of. So uh, there are some 592 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: trees in existence that that probably came from once that 593 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: he planted. But a lot of the orchards that were 594 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: credited to him, um as far as starting them, were 595 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: burned down during the Temperance movement movement because, as we said, 596 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: apples at the time were for drinking, not for eating, 597 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: not as a delightful nature's candy treat. So yeah, Johnny 598 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: apple Tree, I had no idea of either the depths 599 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: of his religious devotion or the sort of Paul Revere 600 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 1: like run. I didn't know of either of those two 601 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: things when I started researching this podcast. I kind of 602 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: can't stop thinking about whether or not he actually ran 603 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: that because there are people that can run that much. 604 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean, they're ultramarathoners out there. Yes, and if he 605 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: is wandering around all the time, it's possible. Yes. I 606 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: read the book Johnny Appleseed, The Man, the Myth and 607 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: the American Story by Howard Means as part of my 608 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: research for this podcast. There is so much more information 609 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 1: about him and about the time in that book than 610 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: we have gone into today. But one of the things 611 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,720 Speaker 1: that it talked about is people trying to determine whether 612 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: that run was possible to have done on foot. Uh, 613 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 1: And the answer is sort of maybe. So yeah, So 614 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: it makes sense that I would be sitting here going 615 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: I don't he could have done it? Maybe. Do you 616 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: also have listener mail? I do have listener mail, and 617 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: this listener mail is about an episode that is from 618 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: before you or I joined this podcast, UM, which is 619 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: probably gonna be a theme that crops up for a 620 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: little while. For a little while as we continue to 621 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: UH to put out new episodes with the two of 622 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: us UM. This one is from Zara or Zara. I 623 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: apologize if I said your name wrong, UH, and Zara says, 624 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: I really enjoy your podcast, but I hadn't been able 625 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 1: to listen to it for a i'll due to large 626 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: amounts of homework. I've been catching up over the past 627 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: few days by listening to old episodes as I put 628 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,160 Speaker 1: this semester's notes into my computer before mid terms. I 629 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: love that listening to the podcast while studying other things 630 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: is pretty cool. I was listening to your October episode 631 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: on Madam La Lourie when I heard something that reminded 632 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: me of my African American Studies class. You mentioned that 633 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people thought that the La Lori's were 634 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: not must not be so bad because their coachman was 635 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: always very well dressed and looked well fed and clean. 636 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: While I'm sure people used to convince themselves that the 637 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: Lo Loris weren't up to anything, that actually wouldn't have 638 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,440 Speaker 1: been a very good indicator of how they treated the 639 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: rest of their slaves. As slave owners would often take 640 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: pride in keeping their coachman particularly well fed, groomed, and dressed. 641 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: This wasn't so much because they cared about the coachman, 642 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: but because it was a way of showing off how 643 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: wealthy they were. Anyway, I thought you might find this 644 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,399 Speaker 1: interesting and thanks for all the great listening material. Thank 645 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: you so much. That is interesting. That's a great episode too, 646 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: and it's also it's fast dating to me to look 647 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: at the various things that people use to express their 648 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: wealth in previous eras. That is also why we have 649 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: sweet tea in theself, because if you could afford ice 650 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: and sugar, you must be doing it right right. So yes, 651 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: thank you very much for writing to us. If you 652 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: would like to write to us about this or any 653 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: other podcast, you may at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. 654 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Twitter at missed in 655 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: History and at on Facebook at Facebook dot com. Slash 656 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: history Class stuff for more on this and thousands of 657 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how Stuff works dot com. This 658 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,560 Speaker 1: episode of Stuff You Missed in History Class is brought 659 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: to you by Audible