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Speaker 1: I'm Jason Flamm, you know. At Wrongful Conviction. We're so

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Speaker 1: proud to be a part of the evergrowing landscape of

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Speaker 1: true crime shows that revealed just how our criminal legal

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Speaker 1: system works and just how often it fails, and how

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Speaker 1: grotesquely in some cases it just collapses on people who

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Speaker 1: are innocent. And this week I've invited a colleague from

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Speaker 1: another podcast, a podcast that I really love, to bring

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Speaker 1: their own unique style to our coverage of yet another

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Speaker 1: insane wrongful conviction case.

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Speaker 2: Late at night on September seventeenth, two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 2: five people on Detroit's East Side were at a house

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Speaker 2: party watching a football game on TV. Without warning, two

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Speaker 2: men burst into the house and shot the place up.

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Speaker 2: They killed four of the five people, but one woman

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Speaker 2: survived by hiding under a bed. One of the gunmen

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Speaker 2: found her there and told her to play dead. A

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Speaker 2: few blocks away, neighbors were gathering on the street, including

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old Davante Sandford. When police talked to DeVante,

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Speaker 2: he told them that his aunt's boyfriend was a retired

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Speaker 2: homicide cop. So police asked Davante to help them with

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Speaker 2: the investigation, to tell them what he knew about the

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Speaker 2: people in the neighborhood. But in the end police forced

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Speaker 2: Davante to confess to this brutal quadruple homicide. He was

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Speaker 2: tried and convicted, then sentenced to thirty seven to ninety

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Speaker 2: years in prison. And remember he was only fourteen. In

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Speaker 2: this case, it would take a truly unexpected turn of

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Speaker 2: events for DeVante's innocence to come to light. This is

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Speaker 2: wrongful conviction. Hey guys, it's Laura and I writer and

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Speaker 2: I'm honored to be guest hosting this episode of Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: I'm the co director of the Center on Wrongful Convictions

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Speaker 2: at Northwestern Universe. And if my voice sounds familiar, it's

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Speaker 2: because I've guest hosted other episodes of this podcast, and

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Speaker 2: I co host another series on this feed called False Confessions.

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Speaker 2: Today's episode is one of the most important and shocking

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Speaker 2: cases of wrongful conviction that I know of, and I

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Speaker 2: am so honored to tell you the story. I'm here

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Speaker 2: with two very special guests, Meghan Crane and DeVante Sandford.

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Speaker 3: I'm Meghan Crane, I'm an attorney, and I'm the co

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Speaker 3: director of the Missouri office of the MacArthur Justice Center.

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Speaker 2: We are so excited to have you, and there's no

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Speaker 2: one in this world like DeVante Sandford. Davante, we are

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Speaker 2: so happy to have you here. Do you mind introducing

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Speaker 2: yourself to.

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Speaker 4: How you doing. My name is DeVante Sandford. I'm a zannerie,

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Speaker 4: I'm a son, I'm a father, entrepreneur and.

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Speaker 2: All around amazing human being. We are so grateful to

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Speaker 2: have you here, Davante. You know your case. When I

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Speaker 2: think about all of the wrongful conviction cases that I've

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Speaker 2: worked on, that people like Megan, who's one of my heroes,

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Speaker 2: have worked on, that all of us in this entire

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Speaker 2: space have worked on, yours is always the first one

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Speaker 2: that comes to my mind as one of the most

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Speaker 2: difficult examples of just sheer injustice. And it starts when

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Speaker 2: you're a fourteen year old kid living in Detroit, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: on the East side of Detroit on Belin Street. What

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Speaker 2: was life like for you back in the day?

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Speaker 5: Back in the day, it was it was kind of hard.

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Speaker 4: You know, I was going through a lot mentally, spiritually, emotionally,

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Speaker 4: like the family dynamic was really wasn't there as far

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Speaker 4: as like a lot of support, you know, my mother,

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Speaker 4: like she was dealing with a drug abuse issue, So

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Speaker 4: like I had like a lot going on.

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Speaker 2: Or Honesty, So you're living on Bilin Street. It's a

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Speaker 2: tough life. You're there with your mom and siblings. There's

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Speaker 2: drugs in the house. This is a in a tough

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Speaker 2: block in a tough part of Detroit. When do you

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Speaker 2: think back DeVante to yourself at fourteen, what did you

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Speaker 2: think your future.

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Speaker 4: Was going to be growing up? Like, I didn't hear

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Speaker 4: as often as I hear it now. I didn't hear

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Speaker 4: the word opportunity. I didn't hear a word growth. I

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Speaker 4: didn't hear a word future. I didn't I didn't hear

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Speaker 4: those type of words. You know, somebody would have asked

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Speaker 4: me what your future looked like when I was fourteen,

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't have been able to even answer that.

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Speaker 5: I can answer it now, but not back then.

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Speaker 2: So you grew up not hearing words like future and opportunity.

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Speaker 2: What words did you hear instead?

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Speaker 4: Get rich and die trying, you know, hustle and no luck.

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Speaker 4: The East side of Detroit is like one of the

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Speaker 4: worstest parts of Detroit. Or Honesty, like very high crime rate,

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Speaker 4: very very high crime rate, very high poverty rate, very

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Speaker 4: low rates when it comes to reading and education amongst

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Speaker 4: like the youth.

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Speaker 2: And you know you're you're growing up at that and

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Speaker 2: you had a couple of extra obstacles, one in particular

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Speaker 2: that not every kid had grown up on the East

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Speaker 2: side of Detroit. I want to ask you if it's

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Speaker 2: okay about your site, because I know you've had some

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Speaker 2: issues with your site. Can you tell us about that.

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Speaker 4: I'm partially blind in like one of my eyes. That

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Speaker 4: happened when I was maybe fourth fifth grade, and I

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Speaker 4: actually I had to scar corneal so I had to

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Speaker 4: get like I used to have to get surgeries.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: At the time, I just felt like it was just

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Speaker 4: different things they was trying on me to see if

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Speaker 4: someone was going to work.

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Speaker 5: You know. It caused me a lot of like trauma.

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Speaker 4: Just had the simple fact, you know, being in grade school,

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Speaker 4: I then to go with where like eypatches, kids making

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Speaker 4: like jokes and stuff for you and stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: So like that was very like traumatizing.

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Speaker 2: I just got to ask you one other question about

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Speaker 2: who you were before this case happened to you. How'd

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Speaker 2: you spend your time when you want to have fun?

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Speaker 2: What'd you do for fun?

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Speaker 4: I was too busy trying to like look for food

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Speaker 4: to eat because I probably ain't eating like two days.

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Speaker 4: You know, I didn't really know too much of like

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Speaker 4: fun or enjoying myself or honestly outside and maybe going

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Speaker 4: to like a neighborhood like basement party. But it's like

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Speaker 4: looks coming dece even look at now, Like I didn't

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Speaker 4: know about opportunity. I know everything about opportunity now, I

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Speaker 4: didn't know about what a future looked like you asking

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Speaker 4: me that question.

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Speaker 5: Now, my future is very bright.

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Speaker 2: Your future is bright, and I want to hear so

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Speaker 2: much more about that. But first I want to talk

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Speaker 2: about what you had to go through to get to

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Speaker 2: that future, right, what you had to go through to

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Speaker 2: get from being that fourteen year old kid on Beeland

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Speaker 2: Street to the man you are.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 2: This is where I'm going to bring in your lawyer,

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Speaker 2: Meghan Crane. Megan, it's fantastic to have you here. Can

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Speaker 2: you take us back to the night of September seventeenth,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, which is when something pretty horrible

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Speaker 2: happened right around the corner from where Defonte lived at

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Speaker 2: the time that set a whole chain of events into motion,

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Speaker 2: almost unstoppably from the beginning.

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Speaker 3: So it's a Monday night, September seventeenth, two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 3: It's around eleven thirty at night. I think it was

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Speaker 3: a Monday night football night. So a football game had

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Speaker 3: gone late and was wrapping up, and there are five

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Speaker 3: people inside nineteen seven forty one Runyon Street watching the

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Speaker 3: end of the game when two adult men multiple witnesses

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Speaker 3: report they're around six feet tall skinny, approach the house

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Speaker 3: with two guns. They start firing a lot of bullets

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Speaker 3: from the outside of the house into the front window,

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Speaker 3: and then they bombard through the screen and front door

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Speaker 3: of this house and just shoot up the living room.

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Speaker 3: They shoot all five adults sitting in that room, killing

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Speaker 3: four of them, including the owner of the house, Michael Robinson,

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Speaker 3: a thirty three year old man who we now know

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Speaker 3: to have been a local marijuana grower and dealer in

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Speaker 3: the community, and four of his friends. Three of his

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Speaker 3: friends pass away, but one of them is shot a

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Speaker 3: couple times but escapes to a back bedroom. In that

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Speaker 3: back bedroom, Michael Robinson's seven year old son happens to

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Speaker 3: be asleep at the time, and the surviving victim hides

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Speaker 3: under his bed. She later reports that one of the

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Speaker 3: shooters comes into the bedroom and actually says play dead,

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Speaker 3: be quiet, and so she survives, maybe thanks to those

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Speaker 3: words of that shooter. And as she's hiding in that bedroom,

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Speaker 3: she hears someone in the basement of the house moving around, rustling,

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Speaker 3: a lot of activity down there, and then they say

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Speaker 3: let's get out of here, and they both flee the scene.

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Speaker 3: Multiple witnesses report only two people. One of those witnesses

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Speaker 3: is a man named Jesse King who lived across the street.

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Speaker 3: He was a chaplain actually for the Detroit Police. He

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Speaker 3: had firearms in his house, partially because of his professional position,

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Speaker 3: and he fired back because he had heard the shots

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Speaker 3: and he saw these shooters fleeing the scene, and he

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Speaker 3: exchanges fire with the shooters. He definitively says these were

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Speaker 3: two men, and he describes their physical build, their height

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Speaker 3: in some detail, and the attire they were wearing. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: as all this is going on, Davante lives just around

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Speaker 3: the corner from nineteen seventy forty one Runyon Street. As

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Speaker 3: he said, on Beelin Street, Davante had heard the commotion.

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Speaker 3: He heard that something was happening around the corner. So

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Speaker 3: it's late at night, he's in his pajamas. He comes

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Speaker 3: outside to see what's going on.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to be clear. So what you've

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Speaker 2: got here is a horrific act of bloodshed, but it

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Speaker 2: has witnesses and they all said the same thing, right,

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Speaker 2: They said it was two adult men, which is a

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Speaker 2: pretty good lead to go on. But the police goes

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Speaker 2: somewhere a little different with this. They go around the

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Speaker 2: corner to Beelin Street. How do the police get there

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Speaker 2: and how does this go down? When they start talking

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Speaker 2: to Davante.

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Speaker 3: My understand is the police were just canvassing the neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: There are a couple different officers out going down different

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Speaker 3: streets looking for anyone who has something to say, and

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Speaker 3: so as part of that canvas, they're walking by DeVante's

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Speaker 3: and they approach him to say, did you see anything?

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Speaker 3: Do you know what's going on? But things quickly evolve

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Speaker 3: from there and become much different than from that casual conversation.

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Speaker 2: Now, Davante, you are outside your house when this happens.

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Speaker 2: You're in your pajama pants, right, You're a fourteen year

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Speaker 2: old kid who heard the commotion, comes out like all

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Speaker 2: the other neighbors did, to see what's going on, and

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Speaker 2: the Detroit police approach you. What's going through your head

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Speaker 2: as they start to.

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Speaker 4: Talk to you, not really like understanding what was going on.

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Speaker 4: That whole little ordeal. It changed my life or honesty,

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Speaker 4: I'll never forget it. And like they was asking me questions,

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Speaker 4: where I live, where I'm from, did I hear anything,

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Speaker 4: did I see anything? I believe I had told him

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Speaker 4: I had just came from being with my auntie's boyfriend.

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Speaker 4: He was a retired detective for the head of homicide.

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Speaker 4: They actually knew him, so they hopped on the phone

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Speaker 4: and they called them.

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Speaker 5: He was like, yeah, you know, he just came from

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Speaker 5: being with me. I guess.

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Speaker 4: They explained to him what had like the case they

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Speaker 4: was working on, the different things like that, and they

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Speaker 4: handed me the phone and he was like, look, these

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Speaker 4: is my guys, man, So if you know some helped

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Speaker 4: them out. I don't know nothing, but I They proceeded

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Speaker 4: to take me home and they had my grandmother signed

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Speaker 4: a waiver. She signed a waiver. From there, they took

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Speaker 4: me to back to the crime scene. But I'm not mistaken,

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Speaker 4: and they gave me a gun shop ballistics test.

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Speaker 2: So Megan, I just want to make some sense of

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Speaker 2: what's going on here. These police somehow come across the

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Speaker 2: fourteen year old kid in the pajama pants right, who's

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Speaker 2: just as confused as everybody else in the neighborhood, and

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Speaker 2: ended up taking him into the police station for questioning

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Speaker 2: what's going on here? How did they settle on DeVante?

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Speaker 3: I'll be honest, I find it pretty hard to explain

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Speaker 3: even today, a decade more than a decade after this

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Speaker 3: and after spend many years working on this case, is

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Speaker 3: my best understanding of how this went down. I think

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Speaker 3: the police officers were doing this canvas of the neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: They come upon Davante, they're kind of just asking him

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Speaker 3: the same general questions as anyone else. But when they

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Speaker 3: realize this Bill Rice connection and they get Bill on

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Speaker 3: the phone with Davante, and Bill encourages Davante to help

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Speaker 3: him out, cooperate, do what he can. That kind of

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Speaker 3: is the first domino to go that sets this sets

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Speaker 3: things in motion. At that point, they are looking for

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Speaker 3: someone who can kind of like tell them what's up

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Speaker 3: in the neighborhood, like who in this neighborhood has guns,

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Speaker 3: who in this neighborhood's involved with drugs? Who do you

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Speaker 3: think might be involved in this? And so Davante, because

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Speaker 3: he's just been encouraged to cooperate, says, sure, I can

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Speaker 3: kind of tell you who I know who has guns

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Speaker 3: or who's involved with trouble. You know, he was used

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Speaker 3: to being picked on and someone that when he got

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Speaker 3: positive attention it felt good and had a powerful effect

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Speaker 3: like any fourteen year old kid. So it felt good

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Speaker 3: to be needed by these police officers. And so they say,

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Speaker 3: can you show us? Can you give us a tour?

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Speaker 3: And so Davante gets in the car and kind of

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Speaker 3: shows them the way around the neighborhood. Things transpire from there.

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Speaker 3: They take him to the high school. They sit in

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Speaker 3: the parking lot in the high school for a while

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Speaker 3: and try to get information out of Davante. They take

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Speaker 3: Davante to get some fast food. Davante just told us

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Speaker 3: sometimes he'd go two days without eating. They buy him

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Speaker 3: a burger and fries to entice him to share more.

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Speaker 3: Give us more, tell us anything you can, and the

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Speaker 3: more juicy stuff, the more relevant information he can give

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Speaker 3: about drugs, guns crimes, the better. Maybe the more burgers,

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Speaker 3: the more fries you'll get.

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Speaker 2: Right, be a hero. This quadruple hamas, I just went

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Speaker 2: down in your neighborhood, be a hero. But the thing is,

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Speaker 2: you know, Davante, they took you around the area, they

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Speaker 2: brought you the burger, they brought you back to the station.

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Speaker 2: But at some point the tables turned right. They were

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Speaker 2: no longer looking for information. They were looking for you

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Speaker 2: to confess. Can you tell us how it came about

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Speaker 2: that you ended up confessing to committing this quadruple homicide.

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Speaker 5: Honest answer. I wanted to go home. I was scared.

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Speaker 4: They can't promise me that if I was hurry up

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Speaker 4: and get this over with, that's the quicker I can

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Speaker 4: go home. I was at a point I just I

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Speaker 4: wanted to be anywhere except for their.

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Speaker 5: I'm fourteen, barely like experienced anything for real.

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Speaker 4: And you know the promise was if I basically apply,

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Speaker 4: and you know, I go through with this, you know

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Speaker 4: my reward was going home.

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Speaker 2: Megan, Can you tell us a little bit more about

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Speaker 2: the interrogation when you've looked at it real eyes? How

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Speaker 2: long did it last? What kind of techniques were they

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Speaker 2: using against somebody as young and vulnerable as Davante in

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Speaker 2: order to get this confession?

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Speaker 3: Well, first, I think it's important to note that, I

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Speaker 3: mean this starts in the middle of the night. So

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Speaker 3: they have Davante, whether it's in the car, in the

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Speaker 3: parking lot of high school, or in the police station,

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Speaker 3: from one am through up until some point the next

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Speaker 3: day eight to twelve hours for round one, and that's

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Speaker 3: only round one of multiple rounds that are to come

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Speaker 3: over the next twenty four to forty eight hours. In

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Speaker 3: that first round, they are playing the friend. They're buying

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Speaker 3: him the burger, they're buying him the fries. He goes

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Speaker 3: to the police station. He's playing on the computer. He's

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Speaker 3: looking on social media to help them find people to

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Speaker 3: show them pictures of the guns of the people in

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Speaker 3: the neighborhood who might have done this. And that's making

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Speaker 3: him feel important, and he has access to computer that

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Speaker 3: he doesn't always have access to at home. And at

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Speaker 3: the end of that, by the mid day the next day,

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Speaker 3: when they bring Davante home, he has signed a handwritten

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Speaker 3: statement saying five kids from the neighborhood did this. He

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Speaker 3: names them Tone Tone, Tone loose. They did it with

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Speaker 3: five guns. He names those five guns a Mini fourteen,

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Speaker 3: a handgun, a thirty eight caliber, an assault style weapon,

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Speaker 3: and he tells a story that they met up at

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Speaker 3: a fast food restaurant earlier that day Coney Island to

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Speaker 3: talk about this. Davante was with them leading up to it,

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Speaker 3: but he freaked out and he didn't stick around. He

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Speaker 3: went home and didn't go to this to run in

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Speaker 3: street with them, but he knows what happened.

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Speaker 2: Do the police check out Davante's story.

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Speaker 3: They do check out some of it, some of it

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Speaker 3: doesn't match, and they kind of proceed full steam ahead. Inexplicably.

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Speaker 3: They have five perpetrators versus the witnesses that Tay Too

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Speaker 3: h Okay, who cares ballistics from the scene, show definitively

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Speaker 3: that this gun was an AK forty seven and a

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Speaker 3: forty five pistol. There's no question about that. The ballistics

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Speaker 3: are not from a Mini fourteen, they're not from a

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Speaker 3: thirty five caliber, They're not from a handgun. They go

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Speaker 3: check out this fast food restaurant they supposedly met up

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Speaker 3: at the Coney Island that Coney Island is closed for

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Speaker 3: construction and has been for months. They check out the

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Speaker 3: people Davante has named Tone Tone Loas they go pick

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Speaker 3: up multiple of them, they question them that night. That morning,

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Speaker 3: they're cleared by Alibis and they're let go, but it

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Speaker 3: doesn't take their sites off Davante.

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Speaker 2: The story is by this point riddled with errors. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's the wrong people, the wrong guns, the wrong place,

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Speaker 2: at this Coney Island restaurant that's closed. Nothing there makes sense.

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Speaker 2: But the police still have you in their sights, Davante.

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Speaker 2: They come back and get you right, and they bring

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Speaker 2: you back to the station, and that's when things start

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Speaker 2: to get even worse.

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Speaker 5: Megan.

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Speaker 2: They question Davante again and tell us about the confession

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Speaker 2: that results after the second round.

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Speaker 3: So they do take Davante home briefly. I think during

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Speaker 3: that time they're picking up Tone Tone loas the other

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Speaker 3: guys they're questioning them, and when they clear them and

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Speaker 3: they realize, huh, this isn't making much sense, they decide

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Speaker 3: we got to go get Davante again, so they go

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Speaker 3: pick up Davante's mom is home at the time. They

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Speaker 3: tell her, you know, we don't think your son's telling

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Speaker 3: us the truth. We need to bring him back in

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Speaker 3: and talk to him about this homicide. His mom says okay,

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Speaker 3: and she, as a mom, is you know, socialized to

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Speaker 3: do that encourages Davante to tell the truth, to tell

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Speaker 3: the police, and from what Davante has always told me,

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Speaker 3: things were dramatically changed from there. They had been his friends,

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Speaker 3: they'd been helpful, they'd been encouraging before that. As soon

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Speaker 3: as he's back in the car, they are aggressive. They're

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Speaker 3: confronting him, they're yelling at him, they're telling him, we

350
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Speaker 3: know you're lying. And at this point there is a

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Speaker 3: very common tactic of lying to DeVante and using false evidence.

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Speaker 3: They had taken his shoes earlier when they had him

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Speaker 3: at the police station. They said, we tested your shoes.

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Speaker 3: You have blood on your shoes, so we now know

355
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Speaker 3: you were there. We know you did this, and we

356
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Speaker 3: know you're lying to us. So we don't want to

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Speaker 3: hear anything else. We just want to hear the truth.

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Speaker 3: Tell us what happened.

359
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,280
Speaker 2: Wow, So I mean, Devonte, I'm just picture the mental

360
00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 2: whirlwind that you must have been experiencing at this time.

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Speaker 2: After being picked up off the street in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the night, right after the shooting. What was it

363
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Speaker 2: like to realize that all of a sudden, these officers

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Speaker 2: who just a few hours earlier had been to your friends.

365
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Speaker 2: What was it like to realize that they were coming

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 4: It was hell. It was very stressful, very traumatizing. You

368
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,520
Speaker 4: feel hopeless in situations like that, right, because it's like,

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Speaker 4: how did I get to this point?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 4: I went from walking down the street to them showing

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Speaker 4: me pictures of like the deceased people, people who was once.

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Speaker 5: Alive, not these people are deceased.

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Speaker 4: Right, And on top of that, like everything was just

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Speaker 4: like happening so fast.

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Speaker 5: So it was you know.

377
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Speaker 2: It was stuff that we shouldn't expect even the most

378
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Speaker 2: experienced adult to withstand, let alone a fourteen year old

379
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 2: kid who's by himself and scared. You end up changing

380
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 2: your story to try and please these guys, to try

381
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 2: and get out of there, to try and go home,

382
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Speaker 2: like you were saying. And the story that it becomes

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Speaker 2: clear they want is a story where you were involved, where.

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Speaker 5: You did this.

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00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 2: Can you tell us, Megan, what the final story was?

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Speaker 2: In DeVante's final confession.

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Speaker 3: The final story Davante tells isn't that much different than

388
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,440
Speaker 3: the original story he told that didn't make much sense

389
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Speaker 3: and didn't match most of the facts, except that it

390
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Speaker 3: now includes Davante as an active participant and as a shooter.

391
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Speaker 3: So it has these four other people from the neighborhood

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Speaker 3: who we now know. Some of those names were given

393
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Speaker 3: to police by a witness that during that canvas that night.

394
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Speaker 3: It has these five guns that don't match the ballistics

395
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,119
Speaker 3: of the scene, but it has Davante going in, It

396
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 3: has Davante doing the shooting, and then it has Davante

397
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Speaker 3: running away on foot from this scene to his house,

398
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 3: which also doesn't match the evidence. And DeVante told police

399
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Speaker 3: he threw his Mini fourteen, which was the gun he

400
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,920
Speaker 3: fired at the scene, into a vacant field on AT

401
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 3: and T property. Afterwards, police went and checked that field.

402
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 3: They did not find any gun. And this usually is

403
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 3: like a real red flag of an unreliable confession. If

404
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 3: a suspect gives you a new fact that police don't

405
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,439
Speaker 3: already know, and you conduct follow up investigation and you

406
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,440
Speaker 3: prove it true, well then that's the gold star standard

407
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 3: of a reliable confession. But if you don't prove it true,

408
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 3: that's a red flag and you need to question this

409
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 3: confession and this suspect.

410
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: It's a perfect storm, right, It's an unfortunately perfect recipe

411
00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: for how to get a false confession. From the sleep

412
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: deprivation to the interrogation techniques that we used. You mentioned

413
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 2: the lies about the evidence, right, the lack of council,

414
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,720
Speaker 2: lack of parent for somebody as young as Davante in

415
00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,239
Speaker 2: that room, and once Davante gave that confession that they

416
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 2: were driving for that they were coming to get during

417
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 2: those thirty six hours of often on interrogation DeVante's church

418
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: as an adult, and you get a lawyer DeVante whose name,

419
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: unfortunately is pretty notorious in the world of wrongful conviction.

420
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,880
Speaker 2: His name is Robert Slamica. Megan, can you educate us

421
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: about just who Robert Slamica is.

422
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, Robert Slamica was a private attorney in Detroit who

423
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 3: I don't know if it was well known at that time,

424
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 3: but at this point is now notorious for misconduct and

425
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 3: doing essentially a really, a really bad job at being

426
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 3: a defense attorney. He was reprimanded formally by bar association

427
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: at least six times, including in one other exoneration case

428
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 3: where he helped helped essentially get an innocent man convicted

429
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 3: and sent away for life. And since then, in more

430
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 3: recent years, he has actually been disbarred for misconduct and

431
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 3: criminal conduct. And I think we'll hear a bit more

432
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: from Davante about what he did or didn't do for

433
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 3: Devantee's case, But Davante essentially received no defense from this man.

434
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Speaker 4: So my whole time I and juvenile, I was in

435
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,240
Speaker 4: the juvenile detention facility for around eight months fighting four

436
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 4: council first degree murder, four council felaity murder, on robbery

437
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 4: sought with attentive murder and felaty firearm.

438
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 5: My attorney on he came and seen me what four times?

439
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 2: Wow?

440
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 5: If that what? Ten many visits?

441
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 4: It never brought any paperwork with him, no files, never,

442
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 4: no nothing, no sense of come on, like, let's try

443
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 4: to build a defense. He didn't try to put up

444
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 4: no type of fight, no effort. No, I don't even

445
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 4: think he even called the witness He didn't call any

446
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 4: character witnesses, nothing like. He didn't try whatsoever you know

447
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 4: for him. I felt as if like it was just

448
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 4: all about the money and like degreed. You know, he

449
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 4: saw my family was a knee desperate need trying a

450
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 4: best to like you know, be there and protect me

451
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 4: and to try to help figure it out with me.

452
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 4: He knew that he took advantage of that.

453
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: So is there charging your family money while he's only

454
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,680
Speaker 2: visiting you four times, you know, short visits each one,

455
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: and providing you with essentially no help. So what goes

456
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 2: down at trial, Megan with Slamica at the helm of

457
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 2: this so called defense of this innocent kid.

458
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 3: Well, at first they just want to point out what

459
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 3: goes down or doesn't go down before trial. Slamica, essentially,

460
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 3: I mean not essentially, he does no investigation of this case.

461
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 3: And as we've already discussed, from all of the glaring

462
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 3: inconsistencies or latent differences between the facts of the crime

463
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,159
Speaker 3: and DeVante's confession, there was a lot to investigate. There

464
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 3: was a lot to look into, a lot to disprove

465
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 3: he did nothing. One thing that happens in between that

466
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,440
Speaker 3: time nothing to do with Slamica. But there's a state

467
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: ordered forensic psychological evaluation a couple months after the crime.

468
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,120
Speaker 3: In that DeVante recants his confession. He tells the psychologist

469
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: exactly what happened in that interrogation room. He tells him

470
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 3: this was false. He tells him he didn't do this,

471
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 3: and he tells him why he falsely confessed. Slamica does

472
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 3: nothing with that. He doesn't admit that at trial so

473
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 3: what happens at trial? The state puts on a parade

474
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: of very compelling witnesses. They put on the detectives to

475
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: talk about the horrific facts of this tragic crime. They

476
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 3: put on the surviving victim to describe her experience of

477
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 3: laying under this bed seeing her friend shot and killed,

478
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 3: thinking she's gonna be killed. And then they have her

479
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: have Davante stand up and say a couple words, and

480
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 3: they say, does that sound like the voice you heard

481
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 3: at the crime scene? And she says, sounds like it.

482
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: We now know, we should have known then. But voice

483
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 3: comparisons are not a reliable form of evidence. It's meaningless.

484
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: At that point, though, Slamica takes Davante's side and says,

485
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: there's really nothing I can do here. You confessed this way,

486
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 3: and it says your voice matches the shooter, so you're

487
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 3: going to get convicted. I think you should plead guilty.

488
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 3: And that's what happens.

489
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 2: This is unreal, right, I mean, what was it like,

490
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: despite the fact that there could have been such a

491
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: robust defense, to have your lawyer bring you into that

492
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 2: backroom and tell you that you should plead guilty to

493
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: a quadruple homicide.

494
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 5: It was, it was very it was.

495
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 4: It was a mess, you know at the time, Like

496
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 4: I didn't even know how to like read and write write.

497
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 4: So he got the plea deal from the prosecutor, brought

498
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: the plea deal to me, like I didn't even understand

499
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 4: what is a guideline score or what is gear three

500
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 4: G And I didn't understand none of that. And he

501
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: just handed me the paper and a pen and walked

502
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 4: away from the table and was like sign this, went

503
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 4: over and was doing something in court talking to somebody,

504
00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 4: came back and got it.

505
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: From unbelievable railroaded from beginning to what turned out to

506
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: be the end of your trial. You entered those pleas

507
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: of guilty barely knowing what it was you were doing.

508
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 2: You signed a piece of paper in which you pled

509
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 2: guilty to four homicides you didn't commit, and you were

510
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: sentenced to thirty seven to ninety years in prison at

511
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 2: age fifteen. This is a story that shocks the conscience.

512
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: It should shock anyone who hears it. But here's the thing, DeVante,

513
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: even as you're being shipped off at age fifteen to

514
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: start serving that thirty seven to ninety years, the story

515
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: doesn't instead, it takes a twist. What is the twist

516
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 2: that happens? Megan? Not long after DeVante enters that guilty plea,

517
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: get sentenced, and goes off to start serving his time.

518
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,400
Speaker 3: Exactly two weeks to the day from the day Davante

519
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 3: is sentenced to that thirty seven to ninety year sentence

520
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: as a fifteen year old kid. Exactly two weeks of

521
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,719
Speaker 3: that day, a man named Vincent's Smothers is arrested at

522
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: his home for a series of unrelated shooting. The Detroit

523
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 3: Police Department, say police department that had Davante, that interrogated him,

524
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 3: that charged him, that convicted him. Brings mothers in and

525
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: they interrogate him about an unrelated shooting. Smothers because he's

526
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 3: recently had an infant and has a family to protect,

527
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 3: he does roll over and he admits some things. He

528
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: admits a lot of things. He confesses to a series

529
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 3: of twelve murders. Turns out Vincent's Smothers is an assassin,

530
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 3: a hired hitman, and he works for local Detroit drug dealers.

531
00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 3: He confesses to these twelve murders in detail on video.

532
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 3: Unlike DeVante's interrogations, they video tape the entire course of

533
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: Vincent's mother's interrogation and confessions for those twelve murders, well,

534
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: for those twelve murders are the nineteen seven forty one

535
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: Runyon murders. Smothers confesses to them in detail on video.

536
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: And you know what, those details match the crime scene

537
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 3: facts perfectly. He tells the accomplice he did it with.

538
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: There are two men. There are an AK forty seven

539
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: and a forty five caliber pistol, the two guns that

540
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: perfectly match the ballistics at the crime scene. He can

541
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 3: describe the house, the layout of that living room where

542
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: the bodies fell when they shot them, and he can

543
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 3: describe the conversation that he himself had with that surviving

544
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: victim in the back bedroom as she lay under the

545
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 3: bed while a kid slept. That's not it. Smothers then

546
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 3: tells them where they can find the gun he used.

547
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: They go to that address, they get the gun and

548
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 3: it is a match. It's a confirmed. It is the

549
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: gun that was used at this crime scene. So this

550
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 3: is two weeks after they put Davante away for life,

551
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 3: and yet nothing happens, nothing changes.

552
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 2: Please tell me that the second this serial hit man

553
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: confesses in accurate detail to the run Yuan Street shootings.

554
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: Please tell me that someone in the Detroit Police Department,

555
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: or in the Prosecutor's office, or anyone who knew anything

556
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 2: about this went to Davante or his family or his

557
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: lawyer and said, oh my god, we got the wrong person.

558
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 2: It's Smothers, not DeVante Sandford. It's the hit man, not

559
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: the kid.

560
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: I'm appalled to tell you, Laura, that not a single

561
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: one of those things happened. I would say the Detroit

562
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: police did nothing about it, but actually they did something

563
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 3: about it because the detective who took Smothers to the

564
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: bathroom in the middle of his interrogation was one of

565
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: the detects actives who interrogated Davante, and so he did

566
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 3: something about it. He told Smothers, you know what, we

567
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 3: already got the guy who did those Runyan Street murders,

568
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: and Smothers said, well, you've got the wrong guy then.

569
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: And what they did was they hid it. They hid

570
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: smothers confession.

571
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: Unbelievable, unbelievable. So Smothers confesses to twelve murders. They end

572
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 2: up charging him with eight. Right, they don't charge him

573
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: with the quadruple homicide. On Running Street that Dafante had

574
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: just pled out to. They convicts mothers on those eight

575
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: and it's like his confession to the Runyan Street homicides.

576
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 2: They it's like it never happened.

577
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 3: And we later heard some information that he may have

578
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: even been offered a sweeter plea deal premised on the

579
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: fact that he would never mention or testify to the

580
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 3: fact that he did the Runyan Street murders.

581
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 4: He was offered a plea deal not to come testify

582
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 4: for me because at the time, like my lawyers was

583
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 4: trying to get him to testify multiple times, and the prosecutor,

584
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 4: because he was still fighting multiple murder cases as well,

585
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 4: and the prosecutors reached out to him and basically I've

586
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 4: tried to offer him a deal where he wouldn't come

587
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 4: to court Inlandi's testimony and fight for my innocence.

588
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: Wow, it's one of the worst cover ups I have

589
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: seen in fourteen years of doing wrongful conviction work. Who

590
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 2: was it that actually exposed this unbelievable cover up?

591
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 3: It was media. The only reason this ever came to

592
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: light was a reporter who heard that there was another

593
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: person detained at the jail talking about that he actually

594
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 3: did the Runyan Stream murders and talking about that he

595
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 3: did the murders that this kid was in prison for.

596
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: And at the time this is like, I think, a

597
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 3: year after Davante's sentenced. So Davante has a host conviction

598
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 3: attorney and she hears Thank goodness, a reporter reaches out

599
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: there and says, hey, I've got something you need to know.

600
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 2: This comes to light. It's you're a year in Davante.

601
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: What's prison life been like for you during that year.

602
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 2: I can only say that if I were in that

603
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: position at age fifteen, I'd be scared out of my mind.

604
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 5: I was. I was more than just scared. I was terrified.

605
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 5: I was all in one. You know.

606
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 4: I never went through none of any of that before,

607
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,959
Speaker 4: So to have all that coming at me and all

608
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 4: that coming at me at one time, it.

609
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: Was just Yeah, I'm trying to put myself in your position,

610
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: trying to imagine the emotions that anyone would feel hearing that.

611
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: Some mothers confessed, you know, I can imagine you went

612
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: through anger, you went through sadness, you went through who

613
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: is this guy?

614
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 5: I didn't even have no anger towards him.

615
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not into judging people because I hate

616
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 4: when I get judged, you know, so I'm in like,

617
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 4: I'm not into judging people. But where I am, I'm

618
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 4: thankful for Vince's mothers. Vince's mother is the reason why

619
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 4: I got these headphones on and I'm able to do

620
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 4: this sit here in my home and talk to you guys.

621
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 5: You know, it took.

622
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 4: A quote unquote hitman to save my life, not the

623
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: Detroit Police, not you know, Dwayne County prosecutor office, you know,

624
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 4: essentially a hitman in a team of lawyers.

625
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 3: Smothers tried hard once he knew what the injustice that

626
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: had been done to Davante, to right this wrong. He

627
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: confessed to this crime at least eight to ten times

628
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 3: that first time, to police, to his lawyer, to multiple

629
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 3: rounds of DeVante's lawyer, to the media. He wanted to

630
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 3: go to the court. He signed multiple sworn affidavits under

631
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,759
Speaker 3: the penalty of perjury. I think Vincent Smothers is kind

632
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 3: of the portrait of that even the people who have

633
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: done some of the worst things, some of the most

634
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 3: horrible thing things, still have humanity. And he was the

635
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 3: only one at that point willing to fight to right

636
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: that wrong.

637
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: How does DeVante's case and this crazy situation of the

638
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: hitman trying to help the kid, how does this come

639
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: to you, Megan?

640
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,799
Speaker 3: As we had mentioned, when Smother's confession came to light,

641
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: it was about a year after and he was in

642
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: post conviction in Michigan State Court, represented by the Michigan

643
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 3: State Public defender system. While you would think, Okay, we

644
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: have the reliable, corroborated, confirmed, ballistically confirmed confession from the

645
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 3: true perpetrator, we should be able to get this undone right,

646
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: it proved true that No, that's not how the system works,

647
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 3: not in Michigan and not in most states and court

648
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 3: systems across our country. So DeVante's case ended up working

649
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 3: its way through the Michigan court system for another seven

650
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: eight years, and that's how it came to us. He

651
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 3: had a public defender for a while. It went all

652
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 3: the way up to Michigan's court, but he lost, and

653
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 3: he lost because of a technicality. It was all the

654
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: evidence was there. Smothers was there. It was crystal clear

655
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: Smothers did this. DeVante Sanford did not do this. But

656
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 3: the Michigan Supreme Court said, okay, we see your evidence,

657
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 3: but it's in the wrong motion.

658
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: What does that mean? The wrong motion?

659
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: It the form of document that was filed in the

660
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: court that presented this crystal clear evidence that a kid

661
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 3: was wrongfully in prison for life. It had the wrong

662
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: title on it. And instead of just saying, okay, we'll

663
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 3: treat this as the right motion, or instead of letting

664
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,799
Speaker 3: you refile in our court and come back to us

665
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,239
Speaker 3: in a month, they said, you need to go back

666
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: to the beginning, and at a minimum that's going to

667
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: take years.

668
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Davante, you're a teenager, right, and you're going from

669
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 2: You've gone from fourteen to fifteen already, you're going fifteen

670
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 2: to sixteen, seventeen eighteen. These are some of the most

671
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: important years of life. These are the years of growing up,

672
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: of learning how to move as an adult, learning who

673
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: you are and who you want to be as an

674
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: adult in this world. Right as you're watching your case

675
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: wade through the morass of the Michigan court bureaucracy, what's

676
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: it feel like to be sitting there as the minutes

677
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: and the hours and the days tick by, when the

678
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: proof is so clear that you're innocent.

679
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:25,720
Speaker 5: It was like a roller coaster.

680
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 4: And not only was I like fighting for my freedom,

681
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 4: like I was also in prison and like literally have

682
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 4: to fight for my life at times. Seriously, you know,

683
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 4: I was at war on like two fronts, right, and

684
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 4: at times I felt as if, Okay, I'm not I'm

685
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,880
Speaker 4: not gonna win one of these, So which one? You know,

686
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 4: which which one? This is the one worth losing? You

687
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 4: get what I'm saying. So it was stressful. It was

688
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 4: It was times where I had all the hope in

689
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 4: the world. Then it was times I'm like, man, I

690
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 4: might fuck around and die in prison, you know, so uh,

691
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 4: sorry for my language, but it was times I didn't

692
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 4: see this, I couldn't picture this, but it happened. So

693
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 4: I'm faver grateful and thankful for that.

694
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 2: Were there times that you let yourself hope when you

695
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: were in prison?

696
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 5: Yeah?

697
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: Did that make it easier or harder to wait to

698
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: have that hope?

699
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 5: Harder? Way? Harder, way harder?

700
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 4: You would do whatever it takes to get about that place.

701
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 4: You didn't want to be there more than thirty minutes,

702
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 4: let alone, you know, multiple years. You know, I'm fever

703
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 4: grateful that I had the support. And my support wasn't

704
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 4: just regular support. My support came with a lot of

705
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 4: a lot of strength, a lot of like well grounded people,

706
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 4: and that's what got me through. You know, times like

707
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 4: I would be having conversations with my attorneys and I

708
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 4: would be telling them like and I don't know how

709
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 4: to like how I keep doing this? Like I just

710
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 4: feel like giving up. They had said about emotion or

711
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: court day, or maybe we was waiting for a report.

712
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 4: I remember one time we was waiting for like the

713
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 4: Michigan State Police report. Man, that report took forever.

714
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 5: But I had them people around me. Man who who who?

715
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 4: They held my hand at times when I ain't want

716
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: to even get up at that and probably ran twenty miles.

717
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:27,520
Speaker 5: They come and come home. Get up. We gotta go

718
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,719
Speaker 5: to Fantee. We gotta you know, you gotta be on it.

719
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 5: You know.

720
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 4: My legal team is the ones who like gave me

721
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 4: like and my supporters the ones gave me like that hope,

722
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 4: like you know, you're gonna make it up out of this.

723
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 5: You're gonna make it up out of this because you ain't.

724
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 5: You ain't gotta worry about you. We got you. Just

725
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 5: you know, keep your head up.

726
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 2: I don't know how anyone could to be expected to

727
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 2: get through anything remotely like this without an army of

728
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: people behind you. One of those people was you, Megan,

729
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: a pretty important person. You took DeVante's case. It can

730
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: be impossible so many times to ondo a wrongful conviction,

731
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 2: but you made the impossible possible in this case. Tell

732
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: me what you had to do, who you had to

733
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: get involved ultimately to free DeVante Sandford.

734
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: Thankfully, we didn't have to wait the years that it

735
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: would have taken for that motion to work its way

736
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 3: through the court system again because an unusual thing happened.

737
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,919
Speaker 3: But a Michigan State Police officer, a law enforcement body

738
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 3: in Michigan that had never previously been involved in DeVante's case,

739
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 3: they read our motion and they called a member of

740
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: our team and they said, this is one of the

741
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: most shocking cases I've ever seen and one of the

742
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 3: most compelling packages of evidence we've ever seen. We want

743
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: to look into this case because we think an injustice

744
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: has been done. And thank God for that call. And

745
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: we often talk about working with kind of odd beldfellows

746
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 3: or finding partners in this work that you don't expect.

747
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 3: We certainly didn't expect to kind of partner with the

748
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 3: Michigan State Police, but they did they kicked off, and

749
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 3: as Davante said, it took a long time, a year

750
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 3: long reinvestigation of this case. It was a painful wait.

751
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 3: But it shows the lengths they were willing to go

752
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: do because they put a multi officer team on this

753
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 3: case and they reinterviewed everybody, and they turned up evidence

754
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 3: that made it impossible for the state to keep turning

755
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 3: a blind eye.

756
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: And is that what finally pushed Davante's case over the

757
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 2: finish line?

758
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 3: It is the Michigan State Police pulls all this together

759
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 3: into a lengthy final report and the judge, the trial

760
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 3: judge on his case, vacates his conviction and thankfully orders

761
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 3: Davante's immediate release from prison. And I'm smiling because I'm

762
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 3: just picturing Davante walking out that day. And it's still

763
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 3: surreal because after all that weight, this stuff happened pretty

764
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,240
Speaker 3: fast once that report was turned over, that order got signed,

765
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 3: and he was walking out.

766
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: What was it like those first first few minutes and

767
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 2: hours of freedom?

768
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 5: Hopeful? It's crazy.

769
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 4: I had to go through all that to get a future,

770
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 4: but I came home with a future, you know, planing, aspirations, goals, visions,

771
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 4: and to this day, you know, I tried my best,

772
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 4: one day, one step at a time to accomplish everything

773
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 4: you know that I start out to.

774
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 5: Do from in prison.

775
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: That future is your present day, it's your now, and

776
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: you got a lot of future ahead of you too.

777
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: So what's what's life like now?

778
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 4: I think for me, the most amazing part of my

779
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: life it wasn't even getting out, Like the most amazing

780
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 4: part of my life is my son. My son is

781
00:42:54,120 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 4: like everything you know I wish I had the chance

782
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 4: to be like, which was a kid, like that freedom

783
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 4: of growing and yeah, just being a dad, you know,

784
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 4: Spending quality tie with my son, my son, I'm supposed

785
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 4: to be here. My son is a blessing, So that's

786
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 4: how I treat them as such, you know, Spending quality

787
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,759
Speaker 4: tie with him, working on my nonprofit, giving back to

788
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 4: the community, doing my motivational speaking work, lending my ear,

789
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: like not my ear, but my voice whenever like someone

790
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 4: may need it, you know, when it comes to like

791
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 4: criminal justice, reform, gain prevention, violence, adventure and inner cities.

792
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,239
Speaker 4: I just want to give back and try to help

793
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 4: as many people as I can, not having to go

794
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 4: through some of the things I have gone through, and

795
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 4: if they are facing some of the things that I'm facing,

796
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,759
Speaker 4: maybe getting some type of inspiration and you know too,

797
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 4: don't give up, but don't give in.

798
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 2: You know, I'm curious if there's anything you want to

799
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 2: say to Vincent's mothers.

800
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 5: Thank you that man saved my life. That man say

801
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 5: like literally like say, I don't know too many people

802
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 5: you know who.

803
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 4: Live those type of lifestyles and go through them type

804
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 4: of things who will be willing to like stand up

805
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 4: in a sept responsibility. You know, I got friends and

806
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 4: I know people that's in prison for crimes they didn't commit.

807
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 4: You know, only reason why they sitting in prison is

808
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 4: because they're no snitching rule. I'm not gonna snitch. I

809
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,879
Speaker 4: know my cousin did this or I know my friend

810
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 4: did this, but I'm not gonna say anything, right, and

811
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 4: I don't hold none against them people. You know, what

812
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 4: you believe in is what you believe in, right, But

813
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 4: like some of those people in prison are living in

814
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 4: some of the worst conditions like possible, no no money,

815
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 4: no food, no letters, no anything. You basically just sitting

816
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,320
Speaker 4: in prison for something you didn't do and because you

817
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 4: didn't want to tell. Get what I'm saying it for

818
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 4: that man to want to come and step up to

819
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 4: the plate and take four responsible for his actions.

820
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 5: To me, that's the true definition of a man. You know,

821
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 5: he didn't have to do that, but he did.

822
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: Megan, if you could change one thing about the system

823
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 2: so that it does not happen again, what should we

824
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 2: be doing, What reform should we be pushing right? What

825
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: needs to be changed?

826
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: Davante was only convicted because of his confession, one that

827
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,959
Speaker 3: has a fourteen year old sleep deprived kid. It was inevitable.

828
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 3: Youth as we have long known, need special protections in

829
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: the interrogation room, and one that I know you're working

830
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: on every day, Laura, but is banning deception and interrogations

831
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: for kids. And it has now passed in multiple states.

832
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 3: There's no reason that law can't be paid in every state.

833
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 3: And that is what the turning point in DeVante's interrogation was.

834
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 3: When the police lied to him about the evidence and

835
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: said we now know you did this because we found

836
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 3: blood on your shoes. That was the turning point. That's

837
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 3: what broke him down to that point of hopelessness where

838
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: he would say anything to go home. And so if

839
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 3: we can ban deception, I think that is a big

840
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 3: starting point that can change how things are playing out

841
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 3: for kids in the interrogation room.

842
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 2: As we get to the end of this conversation, I

843
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 2: am sitting on Jason Floum's chair. I'm lucky to be

844
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 2: here talking to you both today. He always ends this

845
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: podcast with a segment he calls closing arguments, where he

846
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: turns off his mic and sits back and let's the

847
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: person in your position, Davante, talk about whatever it is

848
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 2: you want to talk about. I'm going to stay quiet.

849
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to thank you both for being here and

850
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: sharing your stories and your wisdom, and Davante, this is

851
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: your closing argument.

852
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 5: I just think common sense need to be used in

853
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 5: some of these cases, just basic common sense. I understand.

854
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 4: You know, people be having jobs to do, and those

855
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 4: jobs comes a lot of stress. You gotta think a homicide,

856
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 4: that's somebody that's lost their lives, someone is no longer

857
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 4: with us. But at the end of the day, you know,

858
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 4: people need to step back and look at the whole

859
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 4: picture versus just looking at just one little box. You

860
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 4: get what I'm saying, because like when you go back

861
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 4: and you just speak on my case, even the average

862
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 4: person with no type of law background, no type of anything,

863
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 4: scratch they head. How Like when I go out and

864
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,920
Speaker 4: I meet people, they you was fourteen?

865
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 5: How you know?

866
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: Like how so if they coming up with that conclusion,

867
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 4: how come these professional, these detectives, people college degrees and

868
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 4: different things like that can come up with that type

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Speaker 4: of conclusion like hold on, wait, something is off here,

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Speaker 4: you know, like it's we missing something instead of having

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Speaker 4: aw gas no breaks, you know, if that makes any sense.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest host,

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Speaker 2: Laura and I Writer. I'd like to thank our executive

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Speaker 2: producers Jason Flumm and Kevin Wartis. The Senior producer for

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00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: this episode is Jackie Polly, and our producers are Lila

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00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: Robinson and Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Lexandra Greedy. The

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Speaker 2: music in this production is by three time OSCAR nominated

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00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram

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00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and

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00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,719
Speaker 2: on Twitter at wrong Conviction as well as at.

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Speaker 1: Lava for Good.

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00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: On all three platforms, you can follow me on Instagram

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00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: and Twitter at Laura and I Writer. Wrongful Conviction is

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00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with

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Speaker 2: Signal Company Number one.

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00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: Next week, on the guest hosted episodes of Wrongful Conviction,

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Speaker 1: Kembus Smith will talk with Joyce Watkins, a woman who

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Speaker 1: has lit up the world with not only her story

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00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: but her incredible spirit of perseverance. Joyce was imprisoned for

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Speaker 1: twenty eight long years after her great niece died in

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00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: her care, even though anyone looking even a little bit

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00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: closer at the details would have and should have known

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00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: right away that Joyce deserved none of the blame. This

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00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: is a Musslesten episode and it's going to be right

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Speaker 1: here next Monday in the Wrongful Conviction podcast Feed