WEBVTT - The WikiLeaks Story 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:07.280 Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from half 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:14.160 stuff Brooks dot com. Hayley, and welcome to text Us. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.119 I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm Lauren Day. We want to 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.120 talk about a very controversial subject. It's actually one that 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:24.040 we have covered on tech Stuff before, at least to 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:27.600 some extent. Chris and I talked about this a little 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.920 bit in previous episodes. We're talking about wiki leaks. So 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.120 before we even get into wiki leaks, we do have 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:38.640 to say this is an incredibly emotionally charged subject with 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.879 lots of political players, right, and Jonathan and I are 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.360 going to eight we you know, if you've listened to 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.000 the show, you probably know a little bit about a 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.279 personal politics. We're going to be really careful with this 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:52.000 one to to report the facts as they are and 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.720 not slam our foreheads into the microphone. Um. Also, real quick, 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:57.720 before we get into this, I do want to give 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:01.160 a brief trigger warning. It's it's a light trigger warning, really. UM. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.320 Juliana Sang being Um, one of the so called founders 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.479 of wiki leaks, has been brought up on some rape 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.479 charges and so there will be a non graphic discussion 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.039 of that later on in the podcast. Um, if that 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.560 is the kind of thing that you would rather avoid hearing, 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.560 than perhaps you would like to uh skip the rest 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:22.280 of this episode now spoiler alert. Both Lauren and myself 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:26.280 and and with our particular political views, feel that no 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.520 one in this story really comes out being a complete hero. 0:01:29.680 --> 0:01:32.800 It's it's it's just it's humans being humans, which means 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.360 it's complex. It's it's complex and gets kind of messy. Yeah, 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.119 so we're gonna get messy. But before we get messy, 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:41.000 let's just clear things up a little bit. Let's talk 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.760 about what wiki leaks is. Now. First of all, the 0:01:43.880 --> 0:01:46.400 name wiki gives you this sense that it has this 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.840 sort of collaborative, open structure that allows people to come 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:54.240 in and add things and tweak things. Not so much. 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:58.480 They tried that early on in the timeline of wiki leaks, 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.640 but eventually moved away from it. The name has stuck, however, right, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:03.120 and I think that I think that really what they 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:06.760 wanted to do was, um, it was used, was used 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:11.080 that that easy reading format of wikis without you know, 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.320 and then they decided to really close down the part 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:17.520 where hey, anyone can edit it, because that's bad times right, 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.840 right when you're talking about what it is WikiLeaks is 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.800 trying to do and uh and be yes, the sourcing 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:29.280 of information in order to remain um anonymous and pertinent. Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:31.079 these are all things that make it. You know, if 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:33.600 you were to just open it up for what wiki 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:35.600 leaks does, it would just be a mess very quickly. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.560 It also has created a lot of confusion among people 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.960 who are just casually following this or have just heard 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.679 about it, who think that wiki leaks has some sort 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.480 of connection to Wikipedia, which it does not know. The 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.799 Wikipedia and wiki leaks are not at all related. So 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:53.519 what is wiki leaks. Well, it's a not for profit organization, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.840 and the purpose of wiki leaks is to publish information 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:02.240 that would uh normally not be available to the public. Right, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:07.359 normally normally be the stuff that's either been classified or yeah, 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.359 it could be trade secret stuff, it could be a 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:14.000 corporate uh communications that normally would not be available to 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:18.560 anyone outside a certain group of people within that corporation. Really, 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:23.040 it's any information that would be of public interest but 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.120 is not publicly available. And in fact, WikiLeaks go so 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.520 far as to say that the organization does not want 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.079 anything that's been published elsewhere. That's not the purpose for WikiLeaks. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.480 They also make pains to say that they do not 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.960 solicit any kind of information or files. They accept it, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.200 but they don't solicit, which is an important distinction they 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.480 have to make so that they can, yeah, because otherwise 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:52.080 they could start getting charges about being a spy or 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:57.240 or trying to bribe officials or people in who have 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:03.120 access to to classified information too then share it. If 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.480 they merely accepted donations of information, that absolves them of 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.800 of some of that responsibility kind of technically, yeah, and 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:14.680 just at least prints a better picture of them, right 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.640 as far as it makes it more difficult to make 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.880 a case against them, doesn't necessarily mean that a case 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.479 would not be made against them and it wouldn't be successful. 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.599 But anyway, we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves now. Um. 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.960 According to Columbia University's Journalism School, I read this, there 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.680 was a very long article about wiki leaks and it's 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.760 association with the Guardian newspaper, a newspaper in the UK, 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:46.279 and uh, in fact, there was quite a strong relationship 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.240 between the two for a while until an event that 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.520 we will discuss later. Yeah, yeah, that will come important later. 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:57.080 But according to that particular article, it said that Julian Assange, 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.200 who is often referred to as a founder, found or 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:03.440 or at the very least the spokesperson for wiki leaks, 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:09.279 he's certainly the most identifiable personality associated with yeah figurehead, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:13.240 if if nothing else. Yeah, Yeah, and that gets complicated too, 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.160 and we'll explain that in a bit. But according to 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.960 this article, he registered the domain name back in nine However, 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:25.560 every other source I could find six was the earliest 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.960 that it was actually UM registered. This is another part 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:33.719 that makes talking about wiki leaks challenging, in that there's 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.680 a lot of misinformation about the site itself, not just 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.480 about all the shenanigans that went on both within wiki 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:46.359 leaks and surrounding Wiki leaks, but just when it really 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.720 got started. Right, And part of the problem we should 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:51.880 mention now is that a lot of the information out 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.880 there about wiki leaks comes from either Juliana Sounds himself 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.159 or um other other personalities that have been involved with 0:05:58.160 --> 0:06:01.600 the organization and have left it violently and bitterly. Yeah, 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.680 and so so all of all of this is uh 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.640 not necessarily it's difficult to track down the exact truth. Yeah, 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.599 there's a lot of subjectivity here. I mean, everyone involved 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:16.159 has their own agenda and uh, and that doesn't that 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:21.480 doesn't necessarily align with the organization stated mission. Right, So 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:23.719 this is this is what makes this complicated. Now what 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.520 is that stated mission? Well, the whole idea here is 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.760 that what wiki leaks is trying to do is make 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.479 available information that the public that that that you know, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:34.919 the organization feels the public should have access to but 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:39.960 otherwise would not because of the secrecy of either governmental 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:43.200 or corporate organizations or even just other organizations in general, 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:49.880 and that it's an attempt to make these organizations more transparent. Right. 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:52.919 They cite the Universal Declaration of Human Rights UM, in 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.880 particular Article nineteen UM, which which just says that that 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.400 everyone has the right to freedom, freedom of opinion and 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:03.080 expression right and that they should be able to pursue 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:08.000 information regardless of frontiers, Which is kind of like saying, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:12.520 you know, uh, a person in in say, China, who 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.840 otherwise might not have access to certain information completely has 0:07:15.840 --> 0:07:18.920 the universal right to that, even if the Chinese government 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:22.120 says they don't. So in other words, it's kind of 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.720 this idea that everyone has this right regardless of what 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.880 your government says. This is the United Nations that has 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:32.640 the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And it's not like 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:36.120 this is somehow legally binding for all. It's a very 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.040 nice idea. Yeah, it's it's an ideal, right, It's not 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.320 so much legal wording. It's it's saying, ideally, we would 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:47.400 say all people have the right to these expectations, and 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:51.080 one of them would be this right to freedom of expression. Now, 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:53.760 depending on where you are in the world, your right 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.760 to freedom of expression maybe fairly generous or it might 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:00.480 be really restrictive. In the United States, we like to 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.600 think that we have the freedom of speech, but there 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.440 are certain limitations. I mean, obviously, if you are using 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.840 that freedom of speech to inflict harm upon someone and 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.360 it is completely unjustified, and you know, you could be 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:17.080 taken to court for things things like lives, um. You know, 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.280 the whole there's the whole argument about you can't yell 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.600 fire in a crowded theater because it could cause people 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:26.000 your your right or freedom of expression does not override 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.800 someone else's right to safe safety right or at least 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.240 the expectation of safety. Um. And so there are a 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:35.400 lot of complications here. But even in the United States, 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.800 you know, it's fairly wide open people will argue as 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.000 to how wide open it is because of their own 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:44.960 personal views. If you go to someplace like the United Kingdom, 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:50.640 there rights of free speech are are more narrow. There 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:55.559 are very specific laws that prevent newspapers, for example, from 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:01.839 violating secrecy agreements. So something The Guardian had to make 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:04.600 some really tough decisions when they got information from Wiki 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.240 leaks onto whether or not to publish it, because it 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.880 could result in some injunctions from the government, So that 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:16.240 gets really complex as well. Anyway, Wiki Leaks essentially says 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.920 we don't subscribe to any of these regional concepts. We 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.040 subscribe to this universal concept and that's what it's all about. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.760 And so they try to provide the material that journalists 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.880 can use to tell the stories that otherwise would be untold. 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.080 Right um Assan Assam said in one interview with Time 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:41.120 Um that this organization practices civil obedience. It tries to 0:09:41.120 --> 0:09:44.400 make the world more civil and act against abusive organizations 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.240 that are pushing it in the opposite direction. So it's 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:51.319 kind of funny to call it civil obedience considering that, uh, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.440 you know that they are directly disobeying. Yes, they're being 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:58.160 disobedient by by very nature. But it's it's all an 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:01.400 argument about who has the power responsibility if you have 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.360 a lot of you know, as as Uncle Ben would say, 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.280 with great power becomes great responsibility. Now that's that's one 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.200 of those little cliche sayings, but there is truth to that. 0:10:12.720 --> 0:10:16.720 It's very true that if you are a governmental agency 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.960 or a corporation that has a lot of power, then 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.160 there is a certain expectation that you will use that 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:26.280 power in a responsible way and not do it in 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:30.960 such a way that you are going to violate people's rights, right. 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.760 You know. At the same time, frequently information is withheld 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:38.440 by by governments, in particular because because of of of 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.360 measures of national security, because they're trying to protect um, 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:44.640 you know, either their their military interests or their scientific interests, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.640 or or you know, the people and the research that 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.480 go into making that country a safe place to be. Right. 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.160 So there is a very delicate balance here, right. I mean, 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:57.520 you could argue that there are there's certain information that's 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.520 out there that it's good that it's secret, because that 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.520 means that the people who are doing valuable work, and 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.520 it may be valuable work that in no way is 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:10.000 violent towards any other person it may be completely humanitarian 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.240 work that their lives could be in jeopardy if the 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:16.160 information were made public, and that is something that you know, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.440 needs to be taken into consideration. Now, the what Wicked 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:21.280 Leaks would say is, on the other hand, you also 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:27.360 have these instances where UH agencies or the military or 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.040 a corporation are behaving in an unethical or corrupt or 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:35.760 illegal manner, and without this information becoming public, they can 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.960 never be held accountable for that. And so if they 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.000 you know, this transparency gives accountability to those agencies. And 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.640 in fact, they go so far as to say it's 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.240 the media's role to to reveal this kind of information 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.840 to the public, to to make the public informed enough 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:53.560 to be good citizens, right, because this is that that 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.200 big relationship. You know, we often think of the government 0:11:56.200 --> 0:12:00.720 as being this kind of separate entity. That is, in 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:02.600 some cases we think of as sort of that big 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:08.320 brother Orwellian idea of this this other that dictates what 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.960 we do. But in reality, at least in in you 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.600 can argue to watch right. You know, they're definitely fringe 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.800 theories about how much your your average citizen does or 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.960 doesn't have power over over these things. But but but 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.400 saying that, you know, if we take democracy in the 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:25.520 United States for what it's supposed to be, if we 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.000 assume that that in fact is the case, then what 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.760 Wiki Leak's role is to tell the public, Hey, this 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.760 is what your officials are up to, and if you 0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.160 don't approve of that, you need to be aware of 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:40.640 it so that you can the next time voting comes 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.640 around behave in a way that that allows you to 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.600 get the right people in charge, assuming of course that 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.560 the right people are the ones who are running for office. 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:52.560 That's that's a different political discussion. That's the whole other, 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:57.320 whole other cannon worms. I'm honestly, I'm I'm probably coming 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.080 across is really cynical. I'm actually not at cynical. I'm 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.040 just aware of a lot of cynicism. So it's one 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.920 of those things where you kind of dance around it anyway. Well, yeah, 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.440 and you know, the thing is that I read one 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:13.640 thing about how the US Information Security Oversight Office reported 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.880 that um the number of new secrets designated as such 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:24.240 by the government rose from two tho nine and so 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.560 so partially what this has to do with is the 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:32.080 way that governments are processing information and UM and releasing 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.240 it to the public right and and to be fair, 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:37.960 I mean, the Obama administration in the United States specifically 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.679 said that one of its cornerstones was going to be transparency. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:43.480 And so in a way, you can think of the 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.720 media in general and wiki leaks in particular in this case, 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:50.040 trying to hold them accountable for that claim, saying you 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.120 said you're going to be transparent. Here are all these 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.120 things that have not been reported. What is your stance 0:13:56.280 --> 0:14:00.360 on this? And so, I mean, you know, I can't 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:03.920 disagree with that motivation. I think that that's very important. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.880 I think that any nation where you have a free press, 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:10.600 that presses job to keep an eye and make sure 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.720 that things are not being uh, that people are not 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.200 behaving in an unethical manner or taking advantage of a situation, 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:19.520 and if they are, that that's reported. I think that's 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.320 very important. It's a key role in journalism, and it's 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.920 something that some people would say has really been slipping 0:14:26.000 --> 0:14:31.520 from journalism over the last couple of decades. Again, I'm 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.000 not a journalists, so I'm not going to comment on that. Well, 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.160 that's that's another you know, there's also a lot of 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.800 ideas about out there about how entertainment based the journalism 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.880 industry is these days. Yes, yeah, the whole idea of 0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:47.680 of the the commercialization of journalism. Uh well, anyway, Wiki 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:52.160 leaks does have some policies that try to guide the 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.520 organization and how it behaves. One of those is that 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.840 that they do sometimes delay or remove some details in 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.960 stories in order to protect people from immediate harm, especially 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.160 either current victims of of harm somewhere or the whistleblowers 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:11.560 who are reporting this information right. And then on top 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.120 of that, they also try to make sure that every 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:18.680 single leaked report that they receive, which by the way, 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.040 they they've set up an electronic dropbox, that's their preferred 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.120 method of receiving information is electronically, and that this dropbox 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.840 is encrypted so that again in theory, you wouldn't be 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.800 able to trace the origin of that other than being 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.400 able to see that this is original source material, but 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.840 it's not tied to any particular person. So the electronic 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:43.600 dropbox is supposed to be a secure way of getting 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.520 files two Wiki leaks, and they have said that they 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:50.400 would also receive files or or documents in other forms 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.800 like including through the mail, but they prefer not to 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.920 because that kind of stuff can be intercepted in securities 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.120 and questions, Sharon, and also also if they have a 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.360 physical mailing add dress, that makes it more difficult for 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:07.240 them to uh avoid entanglements, all right. So anyway, they 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.760 they do refer to their electronic drop box as being 0:16:10.760 --> 0:16:14.320 the preferred method, and they say that everything they get 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:18.920 they use traditional investigative journalism techniques as well as more 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.520 modern technology based methods to verify that that information is 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:26.480 in fact accurate and true, and that it really is 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.600 from a verifiable source, right, that the documents are actually 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.800 from wherever the person the anonymous source says they're from. 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:38.240 So if an anonymous source drops off a enormous file 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.480 that is supposed to contain all these documents from the 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.280 Department of Justice in the United States, for example, they 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:46.880 would go through and try to verify that those were 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:50.520 in fact d o J documents and not just someone 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:54.200 using some logos or whatever to fabricate something. Right. This 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.520 is through a largely volunteer based system, they've They've reported 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.800 and again you know, these members are kind of whibbly wobbly, 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:04.440 but um they reported having up to eight hundred volunteer members, 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.440 mostly mostly journalists. I think helping helping them out with 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.760 stuff like this, right, and some of those volunteers have 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.199 a lot of stuff to say about wiki leaks, but 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.600 again we'll cover that probably in the second half. I 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.280 think of this of this episode. So they their policies 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.880 to verify everything, to keep it secure, and then once 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.400 they verified it, the next step is deciding on when 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:34.040 to publish this information. And wiki leaks has done uh well. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.480 They've done their own journalism. They've had their own journalists right, 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.119 stories that were based off of the documents that they 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.560 had found. That I think you mentioned earlier that that 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.760 part of what wiki leaks holds very DearS that they 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.200 want to publish original material. They don't want to republish anything, 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:51.680 and and that's and so yes, so um so actually 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.800 doing writing an investigation, it's a big part of that. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.639 They also will partner with existing media outlets, although there's 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:03.960 been sort of a contentious relationship between wiki leaks and 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:09.680 several high profile newspapers UH in multiple nations, and and 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:11.159 part of that I think has to do with the 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:16.760 sana's personal handling of situations. But anyway, they they their 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:20.840 goal is to have stories written about the information they 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.240 have because It's kind of like if you were to 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.600 walk into a laboratory that's doing scientific experiments and you 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.280 see the experiment going on, but you can't really necessarily 0:18:31.320 --> 0:18:33.760 make any meaningful conclusion based on that. You need to 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:36.119 have the report written up where you can see what 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.760 the actual methodology was, what the results were, and what 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:45.520 the conclusions are. That's what is digestible to the average person. 0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:49.520 Same thing with these wiki leaks reports. It's usually the 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:52.680 raw material is something that they hand over to journalists, 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:54.960 and the journalists and up rutting the stories, and then 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:59.080 the raw material is published along with the story, so 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.360 that way transparency that they're really going for right that way, 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.800 so that you can check their sources exactly exactly. Like 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.399 if if Lauren reads the story and then you know, 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.160 she reads one journalist's perspective on that story and they're 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.120 the way that they have taken this information and then 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.040 communicated it, she can then go to the the source material, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.560 read the source material and see if her own interpretation 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.480 of that source material is aligned with what the journalists said. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.720 Because remember, no matter what, we're all humans, so we 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.879 all view things through our own kind of lens in 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:33.879 the world, and we try and be as you know, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.199 a journalists try to be as objective as possible, at 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:40.919 least most people call themselves journalists try that's the hypothetical ideal. 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.640 Yeah so, but it's it's you know, there's no way 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.600 to ever truly attain that sure And and and in 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:51.359 some of these cases, they the Assange and and other 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:56.720 folks at wiki leaks have admitted to wanting to market 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:00.600 some of these bigger releases, uh, to to really get 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.240 things into the public eye. Right, I don't I haven't 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:08.600 personally read any any ill intent to change details, but 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.440 but just to bring the most important details to the forefront, 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:14.760 because they are a political organization, right and when you 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.240 look at it, you're you're talking about sometimes they're getting 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:20.840 files that are enormous, Like they're talking about pages and 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:24.680 pages and pages of documentation. It's like like over over 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.960 three hundred thousand documents and ago that that's you know, 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.200 obviously way too much for anyone to just wade through 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:34.879 beginning to end and find the nuggets that are meaningful, 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.600 because a lot of this stuff has information that's not 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.720 really um, you know, important in the grand scheme of things. 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:44.000 It might have been important for a very specific purpose, 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:47.600 but you know, beyond that, it doesn't really matter so much. 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.520 So well, we'll mention a few examples of stuff like 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.600 that a little bit later. Yeah, so they you know, 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:56.680 this is this is their basic purpose and their basic approach. 0:20:57.600 --> 0:20:59.639 To go into more detail, we'll have to kind of 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.600 look at the timeline and discuss what had happened throughout 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.199 the history of wiki leaks, which course is still in 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.080 existence today. I don't mean to suggest that that history 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:12.800 is over, but it is. It is a continuing story. 0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:15.240 But um, but most of the most of the action 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.960 within wiki leaks was going on around Yeah, that's when 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.119 the big big stuff was going on, although it's played 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.080 a part in other stories since then, and of course 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.280 before then too. But before we get into that discussion, 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:33.680 let's take a quick break. Alright, so we've had an 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:36.399 overview of what wiki leaks is, what its purpose is, 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.760 what you know, role it's it's ideally would fill within 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:43.960 the world of journalism and transparency and accountability. Let's talk 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.440 a little bit about the timeline. So it was around 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.439 two thousand six that wiki leaks began to coalesce, and 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.240 it was officially launched in two thousand seven. Right, either 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.880 December two thousand six or early two thousand seven. Yeah, 0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:01.560 it's right around then. The first public nations were coming 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:03.800 out in in December of two thousand and six, but 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.320 most folks just say that are the official launch where 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.400 we've had a thing was in early two thousand seven, right, 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:13.240 And and I did want to mention that this is 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.520 coming on the heels of in two thousand five, the 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.520 commission that had been investigating the nine eleven terrorists attacks 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.200 here in the United States had found that that poor 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.840 information sharing was a huge failure of the government in 0:22:25.880 --> 0:22:27.960 the in the lead up to the attacks, of of 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.840 of preventing this sort of thing from happening, and and 0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:36.360 that that had led to internally a lot of reorganization 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:41.480 of how information is shared in between different departments department. Yeah, 0:22:41.480 --> 0:22:43.879 this this is something that we see in all levels 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.240 of organization where you have multiple departments and then the 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.560 communication between departments. Sometimes the communication within a department tends 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:55.119 to get bogged down by red tape. And uh, you know, 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:57.080 you see this all the time. If you ever read 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:03.960 any stories about UH police investigations that spanned multiple jurisdictions, 0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.800 that's always part of the story is how complicated it 0:23:06.880 --> 0:23:11.399 was to get the cooperation of one police office versus another, 0:23:11.560 --> 0:23:14.800 and if their federal UH investigators, then that adds another 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:17.280 layer of complexity. And and it was it wasn't until 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:19.800 around that time that UM, I think that a lot 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.600 of agencies had been kind of resisting going digital just 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:25.640