1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: On this episode of Neute World. Alan Dershowitz is one 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: of the most celebrated lawyers in the world. He was 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: the youngest full professor in Harvard Law School history, where 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: he is now the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law Emeritus. 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: He's the author of numerous best selling books, from Hutzpah 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: to Guilt by Accusation, to The Case against Impeaching Trump, 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: to The Best Defense, to Reversal a Fortune, which was 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: made into an Academy Award winning film, to Defending Israel. 9 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: Dershowitz has advised presidents and prime ministers, and has represented 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: many prominent men and women, half of them pro bono. 11 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: He is currently writing a new book about the Israeli 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 1: Hamas conflict war against the Jews, How To End Hamas Barbarism, 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: which is available for pre order now on Amazon dot 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: Com and will be published on December fifth, Alan, it's 15 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: a great honor to have you with us, and I 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: want to really thank you for joining me on Newtsworld. 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 2: Well, it's a great honor to be on with you. You 18 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: were a tremendous member of Congress. We always had differences, 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: but I always respected your integrity and your principles. 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: Well, and you just do an amazing job on television, 21 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: really communicating clearly about the law. I suspect you must 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: have been just an amazing professor throughout your career in 23 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: terms of your students staying awake and actually being intrigued 24 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: by your presentations. 25 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 2: When I admired after fifty years, the students gave me 26 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: a little cake and it said never boring. 27 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: Ah, that's great. Well, before we talk about the new 28 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: book you're writing, I thought we could go back to 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: your book, The Case for Israel, which was published in 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: two thousand and four as a response to common criticisms 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: of Israel and a defense of Israel's rights. Could you 32 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: put together the Case for Israel in a way that 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: knocks down these anti Semitic assaults. 34 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: Case for Israel is so simple. The Jews, of course, 35 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: biblically lived in what is today eretzi Israil, the land 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: of Israel, for thousands of years. They were expelled by 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 2: the Romans, but there were always Jews there, And in 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 2: the late nineteenth century, political Zionism was a response to 39 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: horrible anti Semitism all through Europe, and individual Jews began 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: to move to what was then called Palestine. The Romans 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: gave it the name Palestine, and they built the country. 42 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: The country was very, very barren. Mark Twain had talked 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: about it being an empty place. The Israelis built the 44 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: kibut sim and built wineries, attracted a lot of Arabs 45 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: from Egypt and from Syria to move. They're now the Palestinians. 46 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: And of course the British decided to divide the country 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 2: into two, a Jewish state and an Arab state. The 48 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: Jews accepted it, the Arabs rejected it. Un did the 49 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 2: same thing in forty eight. The Arabs rejected and went 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: to war with Israel. Then the Arabs went to war 51 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: with Israel sixty seven and seventy three. Israel offered a 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: two state solutions so many times and it's been rejected. 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: The case for Israel is as strong as the case 54 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: for any Western democracy. 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: Why do you think it's been such a steady build 56 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: up of hostility to Israel's even right to exist. 57 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: Well, the Palestinians very lucky they have Jews as their enemy. 58 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 2: The Kurds aren't so lucky. There are more Kurds. They 59 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: have a stronger case for say, they were promised to 60 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: state by various treaties. But they're oppressed by the Syrians, 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: by the Turks, by various other Arab countries, and so 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: nobody cares about the Kurds. Nobody cares about the Ugurs 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 2: who are oppressed. They're Muslims, and they're oppressed by China. 64 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 2: But because the Palestinians are allegedly oppressed by the nation 65 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: state of the Jewish people, it's just a new variation 66 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: of the oldest of prejudices, namely anti j hatred, anti Semitism. 67 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: That's the basic reason for it. Otherwise the two countries 68 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: could live in peace. A two state solution was certainly 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 2: viable in nineteen thirty eight, forty eight, sixty seven, etc. 70 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: When Israel left the Gaza Strip in two thousand and five, 71 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 2: they unburied their dead to make sure the note Israeli 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: stayed behind. There wasn't a single Israeli, not a single policeman, 73 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: and Hamas took over Gaza by a brutal revolt, killed 74 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: many of the Palestinian leaders, and turned it into a 75 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: terrorist state. How you have college students today supporting Hamas 76 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: is remarkable, but it's not surprising in Harvard and Yale. 77 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: Back in the nineteen thirties, there were groups of students 78 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: who vocally supported Hitler, who vocally supported Nazi Germany. Harvard 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 2: welcomed delegations from Germany, including from a ship that landed 80 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 2: in Boston Harbor with a big swastika on it. It 81 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: sent the delegation to a Nazi university that had just 82 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 2: fired all of its Jewish professor. So, you know, it's 83 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: not surprising that students are attracted to extremist groups like 84 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: Nazis and Hamas, And the difference between Nazis and Hamas 85 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 2: is too subtle for me to understand. They both want 86 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: to kill Jews, they both want to end the Jewish 87 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: presence in the land that they thought was rightfully theirs. 88 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: And shame on universities that don't see the comparison and 89 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 2: apply a double standard. Imagine any students who had signed 90 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: a letter supporting lynching of blacks or shooting into gay 91 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: bars or raping women. They wouldn't be responded to by 92 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: the president say well, I can't comment because this is 93 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: a matter of free speech. They would comment as they 94 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: did comment on the killing of one black man, George Floyd, 95 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 2: filled with drugs, criminal record, and he becomes the basis 96 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: for an entire reckoning, changes of admission, standard, changes in curriculum, 97 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: one man, and now we should have a reckoning for 98 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:01,039 Speaker 2: how universities are encouraging anti Semitism and not detecting they're 99 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 2: Jewish students, but we're not going to see it. 100 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: It strikes me that a lot of the activity comes 101 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: under the rubric of hate crimes, and that if somebody 102 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: is being physically intimidated or assaulted, that in fact, the 103 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: FBI should be involved, as they would be if it 104 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: was somebody who is transgender or somebody who is black. 105 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: I have absolutely no doubt about that. The schools have 106 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: a completely double standard when it comes to Jews. There's 107 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 2: this concept called intersectionality, which is, oh, if you're oppressed, 108 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 2: you deserve to be supported no matter what, and if 109 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: you're the oppressor, you deserve to be attacked no matter what. 110 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 2: It makes no sense at all. And we're seeing a 111 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 2: destruction of American universities and it's not only affecting Israel 112 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: and Jews. It's our future. These students who are supporting 113 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: beheadings and supporting rapes and supporting murders, they're going to 114 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: be our future leaders. They are graduating from Harvid and 115 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: Yale and Stanford University of North Carolina, and they're going 116 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: to be our future leaders, and the schools are teaching 117 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: them in the classroom this kind of hard left wing bigotry. 118 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: You know. I taught for fifty years at Harvard. I 119 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: never expressed a personal view in a classroom. My job 120 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: was never to teach the students what to think. It 121 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: was to teach them how to think. If you came 122 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: in a conservative, I want you to go out a 123 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 2: smarter conservative. If you came in a liberal, want you 124 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: to come out a smarter liberal. My job was not 125 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 2: to propaganda, as it was to educate. 126 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: But now, of course it's almost the opposite. If you 127 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: were to actually stand up and try to have a 128 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: discussion about the truth, you'd immediately be attacked. 129 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: I happened. I was invited back once to Harvard in 130 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 2: ten years since I retired by a group called Kabad, 131 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: and they had to move the event off campus for 132 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 2: fear of my life, for fear that I would be attacked. 133 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: Because I wanted to make the case for Israel, and 134 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: I make the monitor case for Israel. I was never 135 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: a big supporter of the civilian settlements. I'm in favor 136 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: of the two states solution, but I can not speak 137 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: on university campuses. Just the other day I was invited 138 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: back to the first campus I've spoken to now in years, 139 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: at Embery University. I had previously been invited to Liberty 140 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: University before all their scandals broke out. I enjoyed it 141 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: very much. But today mainstream colleges Ivy League colleges don't 142 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: want to hear the other side. They don't want dialogue, 143 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: they don't want debate. You know, the Lincoln Douglas debates 144 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 2: could not occur in America today. Half the country we 145 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: would want to ban Lincoln. The other half would want 146 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 2: to ban Douglas conversations. I mean, you and I we 147 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 2: disagree about it a great many things, but we could 148 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 2: sit down in front of college students on TV and 149 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: have a reasonable conversation in which we agree on some 150 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: things disagree on others. I used to do that with 151 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: Bill Buckley all the time, and at the end he 152 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: would frequently make me change my mind because he was 153 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: so smart, and I would occasionally make him change his 154 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: mind as well, and he would always appreciate that we've 155 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: lost that ability to talk to each other America today. 156 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: One of the things we're living through right now. I'll 157 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: ask you about two things. One is we have this 158 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 1: dribbling out of hostages just a little bit at a time, 159 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: which I think is a deliberate strategy by Hamas to 160 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: try to slow down the ground campaign. But how would 161 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: you I know, you wrote an article for the Gaystelle 162 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: Institute recently on the choices of war Hamas using kidnapped 163 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,960 Speaker 1: israel Is as human shields. What should Israel do? And 164 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: you have a pretty clear sense of this which goes 165 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: all the way back to former great Prime Minister and 166 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: head of the Israeli Defense for schutzek Kraban. How would 167 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: you handle the ground war and the hostages? 168 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 2: Well, I think hostages have to have a very very 169 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: high priority in terms of the ground war. I would 170 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: hope that Israel will do it in a very smart way, 171 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: not fall into the Hamas traps. I think what it's 172 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: doing from the air is correct, trying to avoid targeting 173 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: civilians and targeting the heads of Hamas. But nothing Israel 174 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: does ever gives them any credit. Look for example, the 175 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 2: hospital in Gaza. They have nothing to do with the 176 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 2: hospital in Gaza. Obviously, Islamic gi Hid bombed the hospital, 177 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: probably accidentally, although a journalist recently said the most that 178 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 2: was ever accomplished by Islamic ji Hid was by bombing 179 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: and killing Palestinians more than by even killing Jews in Israel, 180 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: because the world immediately got behind them and said, oh, 181 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: it had to be Israel. You know, that's the core 182 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: the essence of anti Semitism. If something wrong happened, blame 183 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:32,839 Speaker 2: it on the Jews. It must be the Jews. And 184 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: that's what's happening. It's happened. In the New York Times, 185 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: they had to apologize for their headline in which they 186 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: immediately wrote that Israel attack the hospital. I had nothing 187 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: to do with it whatsoever. Now we have the best proof. 188 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: Hamas refuses to turn over any of the fragments of 189 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 2: the bombs because they know the fragments of the bombs 190 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: will show that they came from Islamic ji Hid, but 191 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: they won't do it. They say they disintegrated. Every expert 192 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 2: says that bombs dropped, rockets dropped, the medals don't disintegrate. 193 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 2: They're there. Hamas went and collected it, picked it up 194 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: and refuses to allow it to be seen. But the 195 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: world these students who are demonstrating, they're saying that Israel 196 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: bomb in the hospital. Truth has no weight on these 197 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: kinds of demonstrations. So you know, a lot of Israelis 198 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: are saying, why should we be so good? Why should 199 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: we have this highest standard of morality? And knew us 200 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 2: any good? Even if we had nothing to do with 201 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: the hospital. They're going to blame us. But Israel should 202 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 2: hold itself to the highest standards of the Judeo Christian 203 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: religion and best standards of democracy. And it can win 204 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: this war by complying with the rules of war, and 205 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 2: it shouldn't. I predict it will. 206 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: Perspective, there ought to be a way to go after 207 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: Gutter and force the Hamas leadership out of the sanctuary 208 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: they have, because there's no reason that the people who orchestrated, 209 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: paid for, and structured a terrorist assault that killed fourteen 210 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: hundred people should be able to sit comfortably in nice 211 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: hotels or nice condominiums in Gutter. I mean, shouldn't the 212 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: United States itself be putting great pressure in Gutter to 213 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: have them turned over? 214 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 2: Yes, I know the Emir of Qatar, I was his guest. 215 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: He invited me to the World Cup. I didn't go, 216 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: but he invited me to lecture. I spoke in Qatar, 217 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: I met him, had dinner with him in Donald Trump's 218 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 2: hotel in New Jersey. I was trying to persuade him 219 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 2: to not take a negative role toward efforts by the 220 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: Trump administration to make peace. I succeeded. I like him 221 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: as an individual person, but he tries very hard to 222 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: play both ends against the middle and they only increase 223 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: their strength by helping get these four hostages out. On 224 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: the other hand, there should be pressure Israel should be 225 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: moving to extradite all the terrorist leaders, or the United 226 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 2: States should because they killed American citizens too. Instead, I've 227 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: stayed in these beautiful hotels and Cutter. They're magnificent. The 228 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: country is a place of luxury. The streets basically are 229 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 2: air conditioned. Everything is wonderful there. And the Hamas leaders 230 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: ought to be in jail, not to be walking around 231 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: free in the streets of Cutter. And the United States 232 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: should be putting pressure on them to do so, but 233 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: they won't as long as these hostage negotiations go on. 234 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 1: The parallel question where maybe I'm too much of a hawk, 235 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: But when thirty two Americans are killed in ten are missing, 236 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: and that doesn't count the hostages. It strikes me that 237 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: the Americans have an obligation to protect their own citizens. 238 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: It would have been reasonable for the Biden administration to 239 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: have launched some very specific strikes against Tomas to send 240 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: a signal though when you kill Americans there's a huge consequence, 241 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: and yet we did nothing. 242 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: We did nothing. Actually, I have an idea which obviously 243 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: is not going to come into fruition in the immediate future. 244 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: But the country behind all of this, of course, is Iran, 245 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: and the Democrats have played footsie with Iran for too long. 246 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: I broke with Obama over the Iran deal, and I've 247 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: been very critical of Biden over what he did with Iran. 248 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 2: Fortunately he's frozen the six billion dollars now. But I 249 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: think the United States and Israel should send a message 250 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: to Iran that they cannot support the killing of Americans 251 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 2: as they have, and the message would be through a 252 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: joint effort to destroy Uron's nuclear capacity. Can you imagine 253 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: if these surrogate groups on US and Hesballah had access 254 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: to small nuclear weapons, what they could do. And if 255 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 2: Uran is allowed to develop a nuclear arsenal it will 256 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: change the world for the worse. It will mean that 257 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: Iran is like North Korea, except North Korea doesn't have 258 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: as much ambition to spread terrorism around the world as 259 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: Iran does. So I think the better reaction of Israel 260 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 2: on the United States would be to focus its attention 261 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: on Iran. It could do it from the air with 262 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 2: very very few, if any, civilian casualties or American or 263 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: Israeli casualties. It takes advantage of the tremendous technological advantages 264 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: that the United States and Israel have over Iran. But 265 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: I don't see that on the table at the moment, 266 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: and I think that's too bad. If it's on the table, 267 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: it's probably under the table secretly, and maybe that is happening. 268 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: I would hope it would happen. That would send the 269 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: most powerful message to Iran. You support terrorism against the 270 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: United States and Israel at great cost to yourselves, and 271 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: we're imposing that cost by destroying your nuclear arsenal. 272 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: Of course, you'll remember when Obama had a red line 273 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: in Syria which one of us crossed. He's just totally 274 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: walked off, shrugged his shoulders and gave up. Is Similarly, 275 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: when Biden has said repeatedly that his message to other 276 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: players is don't and we put two nuclear carrier battle 277 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: groups in these two Mediterranean I mean the question I have, 278 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 1: but these pictures for a postcard or are they in 279 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: fact warships that we are prepared to actually use, Because 280 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: if we're not prepared to actually use them, then in 281 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: fact we look even weaker for having sent them. 282 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: I agree, and we've used them already a little bit. 283 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: Apparently some of these warships of knockdown rockets being sent 284 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: from Yemen, from the Jutis and Yemen at Israel. And 285 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 2: I do think that we may see some use of 286 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: American military in the Middle East, though not troops on 287 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: the ground, and Israel has an asked for troops on 288 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: the ground. It's just to ask for you know, logistical material, 289 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 2: weapons support and also diplomatic support, and so I hope 290 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: that will be forthcoming. Look, the great hope is that 291 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 2: we don't have to use our warships. That they will 292 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 2: be servis a deterrent. But if for example, Hesbilah were 293 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 2: to attack Israel, I think the warships aren't positioned in 294 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: a way that they could send rockets at Hesbella targets 295 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: and work jointly with Israel without troops on the ground, 296 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 2: to destroy Hesbelah, which is as evil as Amas and 297 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 2: much better armed. 298 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: Well, somebody pointed out that in addition to the aircraft carriers, 299 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: which is what the focus is always on, the actually 300 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: the rest of the battlegroup has over eight hundred Tomahawk missiles, 301 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: so their potential capacity to dramatically impact Hesbelah is pretty remarkable. 302 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: If we get to a point where that's necessary. 303 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 2: Well, we all hope it won't be necessary, but look, 304 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 2: Israel tremendously appreciates America's willingness to stand behind it. You know, 305 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: just before the twenty twelve election, President Obama called me 306 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: to the Oval Office and asked me for his support, 307 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: and he told me he had Israel's back. I didn't 308 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 2: realize that he meant to paint the target on because 309 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: he used the second to become very anti Israel, allowing 310 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 2: a resolution to go through at the un which said 311 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: that the Western Wall the holy at side of Judaism 312 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: like the Vatican Is who Catholics, that the Western Wall 313 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: is illegally occupied territory, as is the Hebrew University in 314 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: the Hadasa Hospital so I broke my relationship with President 315 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: Obama over his deceptions of me. He got my support, 316 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: he got me to support him. It was a big mistake. 317 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: I should have supported Romney in that election. I didn't. 318 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: I was wrong, and I did it because Obama deceived me, 319 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: and that broke my personal relationship with him, which went 320 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: back to the time he was a student at Harvard. 321 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: I think it's been surprising how much further to the 322 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,920 Speaker 1: left he went during his presidency. I mean, he says 323 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: to me, the guy who ran in two thousand and 324 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: eight wasn't the same as the guy who was president. 325 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 2: You're absolutely right, and that's there between him and Clinton. 326 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 2: Clinton ran as a kind of center left candidate, and 327 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: he maintained that position all through his eight years. I 328 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: think Obama hit his true beliefs. I think his true 329 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 2: beliefs are closer to his wife's beliefs, which are much 330 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: further left, and he maintained his belief through the first term. 331 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: But once he was re elected, he allowed his true 332 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 2: left wing attitudes and anti Israel attitudes to come out. 333 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 3: And for that I didn't forgive him, and I won't 334 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:49,160 Speaker 3: forgive him. 335 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: As well as have mobilized a very significant part of 336 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: their reserves. But they now have, if my accounts right, 337 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: they've about three hundred and sixty thousand reservists mobilized in 338 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: about one hundred thousand regular active forces. In your judgment, 339 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: is that enough to handle both Guza and the North. 340 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: It is if Israel doesn't have to listen to the 341 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: international community and make sure that it never takes any 342 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: action that endangers a single civilian. If it is prepared 343 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 2: to fight this war the way the United States fort 344 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: its total War in nineteen forty one to nineteen forty five, 345 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: when Roosevelt and Churchill said total surrender, total war, seizes 346 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: on cities, bombing of cities, and they won the war. 347 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: Why should Israel have one and a half hands tied 348 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: behind its back. It should be allowed to use its 349 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 2: own morality, which is very high. Try its best not 350 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: to kill civilians. But if they use civilian shields human shields, 351 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: every death that results in that is a death. That's 352 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 2: the fault of a most Let me give you just 353 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: a common example. Let's assume that I go into a 354 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: bank and I hold it up and the police come in. 355 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 2: I grab you as a hostage. Right, I'm holding you 356 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 2: as a hostage, and I shoot from behind that hostage, 357 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 2: and I start killing people in the bank and killing policemen, 358 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: and a good policeman who has good aim takes aim 359 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: to try to kill me, but accidentally kills you. I'm sorry, 360 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: but that's the hypothetical. He accidentally kills you. Who's guilty 361 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: of murder, not the policeman who shot the shot, but me, 362 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: the hostage taker who held you in harm's way. And 363 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: that is the international law as well. Every time Hamas 364 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 2: uses the human shield, it is morally, religiously, politically, and 365 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 2: legally responsible for the death that ensues. And the world 366 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: has to recognize that otherwise this's going to happen over 367 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 2: and over again. You know, Hamas has a term for this. 368 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: They call it the CNN strategy. They kill Israelis, They 369 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:53,360 Speaker 2: then induce his REALTI fireback, They use human shields. Children die. 370 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: They then parade the children in front of the CNN cameras. 371 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: CNN doesn't explain the context, and people start crying and 372 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: yelling and blaming Israel. In the end result, the international 373 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 2: community puts the blame on the victim and rewards the perpetrator. 374 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: And I have a better name for that. It's called 375 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 2: the dead baby strategy. That's what AMAS does and the 376 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: world has to recognize that and understand that every one 377 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 2: of those deaths is the fault of AMAS and until 378 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: they do, it will repeat and repeat and repeat. 379 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:30,479 Speaker 1: Would you literally grind your way into Gaza until you 380 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: could hunt down and destroy every element of Hamas? 381 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 2: I hope not, because it will take the death of 382 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: too many Israeli soldiers at the death of too many 383 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: Palestinian civilians. I would prefer to see the air and 384 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: sea war continue, which has tremendous advantage for Israel, but 385 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: with warnings to civilians. But if civilians die, placing the 386 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 2: blame where they have to be placed. I think Israel 387 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: could do a lot to destroy Hamas from the air 388 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: and from the sea. Then perhaps surgical strikes at some 389 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 2: of the remaining leadership. But going into every tunnel, going 390 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: into every house is going to be too costly, I 391 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: think with Israeli soldiers. But it's a decision Israel has 392 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: the right to make, and the United States should support 393 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 2: that decision, as Israel would support an American decision to 394 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 2: do similarly. Remember we did that in Fallujah, we did 395 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: that areas there were a lot of civilian casualties in 396 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 2: Afghanistan and in Iraq, but the military value of the 397 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: targets was worth it. And proportionality. All proportionality requires is 398 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 2: that the value of the military target be proportional to 399 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: the number of civilians that might die in the process, 400 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: and Israel complies with that rule as the United States. 401 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: When you look at all that, are you optimistic that 402 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: we can, if we are persistent, destroy Hamas as an 403 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: effective force? 404 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: You know, in Israel they say essimist to somebody who says, oh, 405 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: things are so bad, they can't go wrong, they can't 406 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: get worse, And an optimist says, yes they can. I'm 407 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 2: convinced things could get worse and they could get better. 408 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 2: But I am at bottom optimistic that the Israeli Army, 409 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: notwithstanding its failure of its leadership to prevent this attack 410 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: of October seventh, I am convinced that they have the will, 411 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 2: the determination, the technological advantage to destroy Hamas, but it 412 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 2: will take time. There's a myth that they used to 413 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 2: tell about Stalin Hitler and Churchill, and they were at 414 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 2: a conference about how to end the war, and a 415 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: prophet came down and said, there's a little pool here, 416 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: and the first one who kills the goldfish, the one 417 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 2: goldfish in the pool, will win the war. And so 418 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 2: Hitler took aim with his gun and missed the goldfish, 419 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: and Stalin grabbed it with his hand and missed. Winston 420 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: Churchill took a tablespoon and just started taking the water 421 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 2: out of the pool gradually, and said, it will take 422 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 2: us along time. I have to kill that goldfish, but 423 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: we'll get it done, and it will take a long time. 424 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: This is not something that can be achieved like the 425 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 2: Sixth Day War or even the nineteen seventy three war. 426 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,920 Speaker 2: This will take months and months. But in the end, 427 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 2: I hope there will not be a single general, minister, 428 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 2: anybody left from Hamas. Just the way that today we've 429 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: seen how much the enemies of civilization in other groups 430 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: Al Kata and others have been destroyed. I hope that 431 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 2: Hamas faces the same fate as Osama bin Laden and 432 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: his groups did. 433 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: If we could destroy the Hamas infrastructure, how would you 434 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: then develop a governing element for Gaza. 435 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: It's very hard. It's very hard, you know. You say 436 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 2: Gaza it could have elections. The last time it had 437 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: an election, it voted for Hamas in the Legislative Council, 438 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 2: and so you know, the people who voted for Hamas 439 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: bear some responsibility for what Hamas did to them and 440 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 2: turn them into a terrorist location, which is a perfectly 441 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 2: appropriate military target. In the end, I think northern Hamas 442 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: is going to have to be evacuated and maybe reoccupy. 443 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 2: It's not clear. The people of the Gaza will have 444 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 2: to come up with a government structure that is not 445 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: an enemy of Israel. Maybe they can join together with 446 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: the Palace. They need authority. But today, if you had 447 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 2: an election in the West Bank Gaza, in the West Bank, 448 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 2: Hamas would win. That's why Mohammed Abas doesn't want to 449 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 2: have elections. He has been serving his four year term 450 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: for the last fourteen fifteen years, and he knows what 451 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: would happen if they were fair and open election, if 452 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: there is such a thing even in that part of 453 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 2: the world. But Hamas would win. And so there's no 454 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: easy solution to this problem. 455 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 1: It's sort of remarkable that overwhelmingly the Arabs who are 456 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: in Israel have no interest in moving to either the 457 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: West Bank or Gaza, and seem to significantly prefer being 458 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: governed within a peaceful and prosperous democracy, where they have 459 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: seats in the Kanesset, and where they have remarkably relevant 460 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: freedom of speech, and yet on the two fronts, in 461 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: West Bank and in Gaza, there's such a depth of hatred. 462 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: This is a real challenge. How you're going to unlock this. 463 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: The Arabs that have the most freedom anywhere in the world, 464 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 2: anywhere in the world, are the Arabs who live in Israel. 465 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 2: The second group that has the most freedom, not as 466 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: much as the people who live in Israel, are the 467 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: Arabs that live on the West Bank, in the so 468 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: called occupied territory. They have much more freedom than Arabs 469 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 2: in Jordan and in Egypt and in Syria and and Lebanon. 470 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: The Arabs who have the least freedom, of course, are 471 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,239 Speaker 2: in Gaza, but that's of their own making, because they 472 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 2: voted for them. So Israel lives in a very bad 473 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 2: neighborhood and it has to do what it can, and 474 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 2: it did. For a while. It looked like there was peace. 475 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 2: It looked like maybe the Saudis would make peace with Israel. 476 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,919 Speaker 2: The Abraham Accords were wonderful development. I've played a tiny, tiny, 477 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: tiny role in some of the processes of the Trump administration. 478 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: All my liberal friends hated me for working with the 479 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 2: Trump administration, but I will work with any administration in 480 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: order to achieve peace in the Middle East. But then 481 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: I think Hamas saw that peace was coming, It saw 482 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 2: that maybe the Saudis would make peace, and it generated 483 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: this attack explicitly, explicitly to end any prospects of peace. 484 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: And one more point I want to make you see 485 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 2: all these demonstrations today on college campuses and the streets 486 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: all over the world, and CNN always describes them as 487 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: pro Palestine demonstrations. There hasn't been a single pro Palestine 488 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: demonstration anywhere in the world since October seventh. They're all 489 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: anti Israel. They're not pro Palestine. They're anti Israel. They 490 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 2: call for the end of Israel. They don't call for 491 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 2: a two state solution. They say from the river to 492 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: the sea, Palestine will be free. It's all against Israel. 493 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: And that's the key point that has to be made. 494 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: These are demonstrations in favor of terrorists, in favor of murderers. Again, 495 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: they remind me of the Nazi demonstrations that took place 496 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 2: in many parts of the world during the nineteen thirties 497 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: and nineteen forties, and Hamas should be treated exactly the 498 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: way Nazis have been treated. The ku Klux Klan has 499 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 2: been treated, and other despicable organizations have been treated. 500 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: Somebody sent me the day that they didn't think a 501 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: two stage solution would work, but they thought it might 502 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: be possible to have a three stage solution where the 503 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: West Bank remained autonomous and Gaza remained autonomous. But you 504 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: didn't try to figure out some way to combine the two. 505 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: Does that make any sense to you? 506 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 2: It does, and that would be up to the Palestinian people. 507 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 2: If they want to have a separate Gaza state, they could, 508 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 2: you know. When Israel made its peace offers, one of 509 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: the peace offers was to connect the Gaza strip to 510 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 2: the West Bank through a series of roads or tunnels 511 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 2: that would be ceded to the Palestinian authority to create 512 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: a better connection. But who knows. If the Palestinian people 513 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 2: want to have a separate entity in Gaza and a 514 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 2: separate entity on the West Bank, that would be up 515 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 2: to them as long as they do it peacefully. Israel 516 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: and the United States have no interest in what form 517 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 2: of government the Palestinians. The side for themselves. As long 518 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: as they don't attack innocent people, that's the only points 519 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: of relevance. 520 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: This has been great. I want to thank you for 521 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: joining me. You're a remarkable student of life as well 522 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: as law. You have been an amazing influence in American 523 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: politics and government for two generations. I really appreciate. Also, 524 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: you're talking about your new book, which will be available 525 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: on Amazon dot com for preorder now, War against the 526 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 1: Jews How To End hamas Barbarism. This has been a 527 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: very very good conversation, and I thank you for taking 528 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: the time two. 529 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 2: Old professors get together. There always been a pleasure. Thank 530 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 2: you're talking to you, and may you live a long 531 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: and good and productive life. Let's do this every few 532 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 2: years as we grow all together. 533 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Alan Drschowitz. You can get 534 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: a link to pre order his new book, War against 535 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: the Jews, How to End hamas Barbarism on our show 536 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: page at Newtsworld dot com. Newworld is produced by GINGRIDH 537 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan 538 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 539 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley Special thanks to the 540 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: team at Gingrid three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newsworld, 541 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate 542 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,479 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 543 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 544 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up for my three free weekly 545 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: columns at gingridsthree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 546 00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: This is Newsworld.