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Speaker 1: Lenny Day straight. So you're telling me that there was

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Speaker 1: a farmer and this farmer had a dog. Fine, but

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Speaker 1: with bingo the dog Stamo or the farmer's damo.

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Speaker 2: What Welcome to No dunks for Wednesday, January nineteenth. I'm

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Speaker 2: tas mellis with me. Is the bearded one Trey Kirby

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Speaker 2: he hey oh, and of course the International Man mystery

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Speaker 2: is here, Lee Ella's friends and the man making the

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Speaker 2: magic happen for sixteen plus years now. JD. Hello, Hello, JD.

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Speaker 2: No skeets today, he's a health and safety protocols. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back soon as soon as JD Doctor j D

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Speaker 2: gives him the clearance, hopefully very very soon. But today

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Speaker 2: we are very excited to have on a guest. We've

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Speaker 2: been waiting for it for a long time because we've

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Speaker 2: had his book in our midst for a while. Blood

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Speaker 2: in the Garden, The Flagrant History of the nineties New

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Speaker 2: York Knicks is out just yesterday. Chris Herring, senior writer

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Speaker 2: for Sports Illustrated. We are so excited to have you

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Speaker 2: because if we've been passing around this book, it is fantastic. Chris.

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Speaker 2: I will start with a question about something that really

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Speaker 2: kicks off the book and has been getting a lot

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Speaker 2: of headlines, and I chuckle every time I think about it.

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Speaker 2: The Knicks Xavier McDaniel was known to hold up a

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Speaker 2: towel with his erect member in the locker room, and

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Speaker 2: you start the book with it essentially. So a couple questions,

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Speaker 2: why did you start? Why did you start with it?

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Speaker 2: And how was the process going about finding out about

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Speaker 2: this Xavier McDaniel's story.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was not going to look for that detail.

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Speaker 3: I was not going and asking people, you know, by

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Speaker 3: the way to savor McDaniel tie towels around this penis.

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Speaker 3: That was not the plan necessarily from jump. But you know,

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Speaker 3: in that first chapter, I'm essentially trying to sum up

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Speaker 3: who the Knicks are. You guys have read it, so

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Speaker 3: you know this. I basically opened the book with a

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Speaker 3: scene fifteen minutes into a practice where it's you know,

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Speaker 3: there's no air conditioning and the practice facility the Knicks

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Speaker 3: are using in Charleston, South Carolina, nineteen ninety one upon

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Speaker 3: pat Riley's arrival, and you know, you know there have

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Speaker 3: been movies about this. Spike Lee's made movies like this

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Speaker 3: where it's annoyingly hot outside or it's annoyingly hot, just

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Speaker 3: kind of the atmosphere. It's wet, it's strippy, it's you know,

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Speaker 3: there's condensation. It's gross. And these guys agitated because of that,

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Speaker 3: and not to mention that they're in a box out drill,

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Speaker 3: which is basically giving permission for guys to just knock

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Speaker 3: the crap out of each other while they're trying to

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Speaker 3: grab rebounds. And Anthony Mason and Xavier McDaniel are among

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Speaker 3: those people in the drill, and Xavier McDaniel is winning

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Speaker 3: the drill, but he's tripping people as he does it,

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Speaker 3: and he's tripping Anthony Mason, he's tripping a rookie named

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Speaker 3: Patrick Eddie. And at one point, Anthony Mason says, you

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Speaker 3: do that stuff again, I'm gonna f you up, basically

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Speaker 3: within the first few minutes of the practice. So he

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Speaker 3: gives them a warning. But then you know, Xavier McDaniel

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Speaker 3: he doesn't care. He beats up everybody for a living.

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Speaker 3: So he does it again and continues to do it,

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Speaker 3: and Anthony Mason, as far as he was concerned, had

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Speaker 3: already given out his warning. So he goes and he

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Speaker 3: punches Xavier McDaniel's squarely in the jaw, and it starts

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Speaker 3: a brawl, you know, fifteen minutes into practice to pat

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Speaker 3: Riley and everybody else has to rush in and sprint

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Speaker 3: in to break up. So anyway, that set the tone

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Speaker 3: for what the nineties Nicks were going to be. To

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Speaker 3: your question about, uh, the Xavier McDaniel thing in particular,

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Speaker 3: I was trying to find stuff that would sum up

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Speaker 3: how supremely physical this team was and the fact that

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Speaker 3: this was a team that very much seemed to kind

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Speaker 3: of thrive on its manhood. And I had a bunch

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Speaker 3: of stuff in there about Anthony Mason and why this

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Speaker 3: mattered so much to him and why he was wound

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Speaker 3: up and wired the way he was wired, and I

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Speaker 3: thought of I was like, I don't have much about

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Speaker 3: what motivates Xavier McDaniel, and I got to get back

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Speaker 3: to that theme of manhood and kind of like this

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Speaker 3: battle for supremacy on the first day of practice between

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Speaker 3: a couple of really strong guys. And then in doing interviews,

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Speaker 3: I got to basically the end of the book from

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Speaker 3: a research, you know, reporting perspective, and someone told me,

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Speaker 3: by the way, did you know Xavier McDaniel when he

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Speaker 3: was in our Sonic S locker room. He would toler

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Speaker 3: on his kick like out of nowhere. Frank Mkowski tells

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Speaker 3: me that, and the whole reason I interviewed Frank Brikowski.

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Speaker 3: He was essentially the first person that Anthony I'm sorry

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Speaker 3: that Zabrik Daniel ever punched in a practice. You know,

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Speaker 3: Zabraer McDaniel was three days into the league and you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe one day league I can't remember, but it was

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Speaker 3: in training camp and Frank mccowski just takes a blow

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Speaker 3: out of the face, and you know, he was like

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Speaker 3: telling me about how Xavier liked to fight everybody and

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Speaker 3: likes to know where he stood, and you know, and

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Speaker 3: maybe he liked to know where he stood in other

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Speaker 3: ways as well as showing everybody's stuff with a tele

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Speaker 3: wrapped around it. But I felt like it was meaningful

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Speaker 3: just because this is someone that is going around showing

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Speaker 3: everybody how tough he is, or you know, how sprung

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Speaker 3: he is, whatever you want to however you want to

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Speaker 3: pray it. I do think there's something instructive about that,

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Speaker 3: and that was why I put it there. Once I

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Speaker 3: got to detail, It's not a detail I was looking for.

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Speaker 3: It was not something I'd heard prior to.

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Speaker 4: Frank, So that wasn't where the whole book idea came

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Speaker 4: from someone telling you about Zavier mcdo well. But Chris, honestly,

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Speaker 4: this this book is fantastic. I really really enjoyed it.

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Speaker 4: I thought it was so well written, so well research.

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Speaker 4: You spoke to everybody, seemingly who is associated with the team,

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Speaker 4: whether it was a player, personnel, whoever. And I wanted

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Speaker 4: to ask you this though, because the way you write

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Speaker 4: about and describe pat Riley, you know, he dresses like

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Speaker 4: a mob boss. He's got the million dollar suits, the

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Speaker 4: slick back hairs, the hair. He ruthlessly sort of rules

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Speaker 4: his team, and he wants things done his way or

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Speaker 4: no way at all. He's got no sympathy for his opponents,

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Speaker 4: and he even kind of ordered hits on Nick's opponents.

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Speaker 4: I mean, did you feel like you were writing about

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Speaker 4: a mob boss at all?

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Speaker 3: There?

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Speaker 4: With with just the way that pat Riley operated this team.

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Speaker 3: A little bit, you know, he comes across I'll put

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Speaker 3: it this way, someone tied to those Heat teams, the

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Speaker 3: current Heat team. He told me, I've got your book.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy for you, proud of you. Can you

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Speaker 3: if I send you a copy, can you send it

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Speaker 3: back to me and sign one for Pat. It's like,

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Speaker 3: are you sure that Pat Riley wants a copy of

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Speaker 3: this book? You know, with the way it portrays him.

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Speaker 3: I was not out to get him, certainly, but I

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Speaker 3: was out to tell the truth. And the truth of

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Speaker 3: Pat in this book is he's intense on a level

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Speaker 3: that I think we you know, we knew some of it,

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Speaker 3: but the way I mean he talks at one point

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Speaker 3: about a stafford that he's essentially let go of a

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Speaker 3: popular stafford from the Knicks. Some of the people around

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Speaker 3: the team are kind of upset about it, and Pat

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Speaker 3: could feel that and sense that, and one day in

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Speaker 3: practice he just decides to kind of, you know, say

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Speaker 3: out loud. He's like, you know, I know some of

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Speaker 3: you guys are upset about that, but sometimes you got

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Speaker 3: to take a hostage, shoot him in the head, and

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Speaker 3: then look around and say who's next. Like it was

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Speaker 3: basically his way of saying, if you don't like it,

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Speaker 3: you can go out the same way too. Yeah, And

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Speaker 3: it's like, who speaks that way a coach? That's due

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Speaker 3: to a job. You know, he fired the team, He

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Speaker 3: didn't fire he distanced the team psychologist from the rest

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Speaker 3: of the team, a guy that had worked with the

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Speaker 3: next three years, so he was making this exactly the way,

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Speaker 3: kind of in his image. The team psychologist went out

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Speaker 3: of his way to tell me that Pat used the

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Speaker 3: phrasing or heard from the Knicks that the phrasing was.

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Speaker 3: Pat wants his own voice to be the only one

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Speaker 3: in the room, so he wanted these guys to only

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Speaker 3: be hearing him. He really didn't want people around. He

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Speaker 3: would not let his team scouts sit and watch practices.

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Speaker 3: They had to have advance permission to come by. They

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Speaker 3: could not just come into town and watch practice for

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Speaker 3: a day. So Pat was very paranoid. He was very

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Speaker 3: I think he went a little bit hard with this

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Speaker 3: player sometimes. I mean, you have two and a half hour,

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Speaker 3: three hour shoot rounds, not practices, but shoot arounds the

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Speaker 3: mornings of games. That rubbed some players the wrong way.

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Speaker 3: But he was in charge and everybody knew that part

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Speaker 3: of it. Everybody saw that on day one. So my boss,

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Speaker 3: there were time grids felt that way, but really it

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Speaker 3: was just someone that was like, you know, seemed like

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Speaker 3: burnout was a likely possibility with somebody like that, just

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Speaker 3: because he was putting his foot on the pedals so

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Speaker 3: hard all the time, and it makes me wonder whether

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Speaker 3: he could have lasted much longer than the four years

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Speaker 3: he was in New York. Maybe if he'd been in

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Speaker 3: a management role the way switched into in Miami. But

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Speaker 3: even if he'd got an ownership and stayed with the Nicks,

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Speaker 3: They're just he was wound a different way and motivated

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Speaker 3: a different way in a way that I do think

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Speaker 3: burns coaches out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the surprising things to me is

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Speaker 1: looking back, like you know, you go through the basketball

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Speaker 1: reference page and pat Riley was only the coach of

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Speaker 1: the Knicks during the nineties for four seasons, but they

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Speaker 1: seemed like a pat Riley team the entirety of the

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Speaker 1: nineties because of the culture he built. Do you think

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Speaker 1: that they're able to sustain the success they had in

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Speaker 1: the first half of the nineties even deeper into the

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Speaker 1: nineties if pat Riley sticks around, And would there have

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Speaker 1: been any sort of way for him to stick around

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Speaker 1: New York, you know, given the paranoia and kind of

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Speaker 1: the overdrive mentality that he brought to the team. That

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Speaker 1: just kind of like you're saying, maybe war them out eventually.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the media took its all

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Speaker 3: on him. He was paranoid about that. I mean, but

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Speaker 3: he's been paranoid before. He was paranoid with the Lakers too,

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Speaker 3: and I think that was kind of some of the

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Speaker 3: unraveling there. You know, I have the detail on the

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Speaker 3: story that had been out there before, I think in

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Speaker 3: someone else's book. But he during the end of that

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Speaker 3: Lakers run, he kind of befriended a reporter and was

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Speaker 3: trying to convince that the reporter of the Colmnist to

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Speaker 3: write about how the Lakers girls were, the Laker girls

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Speaker 3: were a distraction, that you know, they would come out

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Speaker 3: late at the end of the game and maybe the

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Speaker 3: players would be distracted or something. And so it was

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Speaker 3: he was trying to put that idea in the columnist's

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Speaker 3: ear to essentially get management to rethink whether they should

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Speaker 3: be out there at all. And so he was trying

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Speaker 3: to use essentially the colmnist is like a mouthpiece. So

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Speaker 3: he was paranoid about that. But keep in mind, he

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Speaker 3: won four titles with the Lakers during those eight years

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Speaker 3: that he was there or whatever it was. So I

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Speaker 3: think for that reason, the expiration date could kind of

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Speaker 3: be pushed off a little bit because you're winning, and

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Speaker 3: that gives you a different sort of feeling than it

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Speaker 3: does when you're getting really close and losing. And so

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Speaker 3: had Nix. You know, I think the most interesting question

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Speaker 3: to ask with Riley is like, does the situation look

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Speaker 3: wholly different, are totally different if they win in ninety four?

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Speaker 3: And I think the answer is probably yes, that the

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Speaker 3: strain and the stress and the paranoia probably isn't as

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Speaker 3: present by ninety five if he wins in ninety four,

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Speaker 3: and the idea of quite frankly, I don't know that

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Speaker 3: he was ever going to get an ownership stake in

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Speaker 3: New York. You know, people overlook the fact that Mickey

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Speaker 3: Errison the heat. My thing is that I think Riley

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Speaker 3: probably would have wanted more of a conversation and more

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Speaker 3: of an ownership stake if he does win in ninety four.

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Speaker 3: The Knicks might not have been able to do that.

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Speaker 3: Mickey Errison could give an ownership steak because he basically

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Speaker 3: owned the team. His family owned the team by itself,

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Speaker 3: by himself. The Knicks were corporately owned, so you couldn't

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Speaker 3: just really give away ten percent of the team because

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of shaeholders that are going to say, no,

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Speaker 3: he can't just give away ten percent of my investment.

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Speaker 3: So you know, but I think that if they win

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Speaker 3: a championship, the feelings are better around the team, that

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Speaker 3: you're not stressed as stressed. At least you're gonna feel

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Speaker 3: a little bit better about going into ninety five. But yeah, Pat,

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Speaker 3: there was something about the way he coached the team

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Speaker 3: and the constant pedal to the metal mentality that he had.

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Speaker 3: It burns goes out. It burns him out, I think,

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Speaker 3: And I think the media was not helpful necessarily either

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Speaker 3: in terms of, you know, all the infighting that they're chronicled.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's an aggressive media in New York City.

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Speaker 3: But he's still think that warrant Pat as well.

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Speaker 2: But he still wants your autograph, which is absolutely incredible.

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Speaker 2: I can't wait to see Pat Riley and his Instagram

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Speaker 2: photo with that book. So congratulations that. I mean, that

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Speaker 2: has got to be a phenomenal feeling, Chris, congratulations for that.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: You know, But speaking of ninety four, I mean that's

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Speaker 4: really the peak, isn't it of this book. I mean,

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Speaker 4: they are within one win, they got two chances to

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Speaker 4: win the series. They go to Houston, and of course

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Speaker 4: it's John Starks. You know, he has that that awful

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Speaker 4: shooting performance there in Game seven. Now you know the

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Speaker 4: start of this book, you know, pat Patrick Ewing basically

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Speaker 4: gave a list to pat Riley and said these are

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Speaker 4: the teams I want to go to. And pat Riley

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Speaker 4: said to him, you know, just imagine celebrating a championship

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Speaker 4: here in New York City on broad Way on the bus.

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Speaker 4: Imagine how you would feel. I mean, he came so

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Speaker 4: close to realizing that dream and you know, seeing that through.

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Speaker 4: How sort of devastating do you think that was for

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Speaker 4: Patrick Ewing to be so close there and just not

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Speaker 4: be able to get outline? Because he's still beloved of

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Speaker 4: course in New York City by the Knicks, by everybody there,

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Speaker 4: but he doesn't have that championship. I mean, you look

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Speaker 4: at Dirk Novinsky, who just had his jersey retired a

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Speaker 4: couple of weeks ago here. How different would the story

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Speaker 4: of Patrick Ewing being if he was able to bring

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Speaker 4: a championship there to New York City.

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Speaker 3: The legacy's a lot stronger. I mean, like you said,

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Speaker 3: I think you said it perfectly. People love him still.

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Speaker 3: I think they're protective of him in New York, maybe

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Speaker 3: even in a way that they weren't when he was playing.

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Speaker 3: These days, I think if you talked to a lot

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Speaker 3: of Knicks fans, they would tell you that some of

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Speaker 3: them have soured on Charles Oakley. In fact, just because

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Speaker 3: oak has over the last year two years, really ever

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Speaker 3: since the incident he had in the Garden where he

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Speaker 3: was kicked out a couple of years ago and hold

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Speaker 3: out of the Garden a couple of years ago. There's

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Speaker 3: been some, you know, been some suggestions that Oakley was

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Speaker 3: frustrated that Ewing didn't have his back when it came

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Speaker 3: to that, that he didn't make a statement publicly about

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Speaker 3: the fact that it was wrong to haul Oakley, one

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Speaker 3: of the great Knicks, out of there the way they did.

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Speaker 3: And so because of that, you've seen kind of a

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Speaker 3: lot of sniping from Oakley's side about Ewing. And I

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Speaker 3: think some fans that you swore by Oakley before now

287
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Speaker 3: are frustrated with him or don't really really have the

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Speaker 3: same love for him that they did before because to them, Ewing,

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Speaker 3: you know, showed up every day through injuries. Everybody knew

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Speaker 3: he was banged up. You know, that was the way

291
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Speaker 3: that he you know that he heard himself in ninety

292
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Speaker 3: nine during the finals run is that he played through

293
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Speaker 3: something that was an achilles injury that then turned into

294
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Speaker 3: a little bit of a torn achilles that kept him

295
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Speaker 3: out the rest of the playoffs. So he always gave

296
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Speaker 3: it everything he had, even when he shouldn't have been

297
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Speaker 3: out there. They're very protective of ewing. I think the

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Speaker 3: ninety nine one actually stung Patrick even more than ninety four.

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Speaker 3: He said that before where he essentially said, ninety nine

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Speaker 3: hurt more because I'm sitting there watching us and a

301
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Speaker 3: matchup where we need me. They played, you know, Tim

302
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Speaker 3: Duncan and David Robinson essentially without a starting center in

303
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Speaker 3: that series because Patrick was out, So that one was

304
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Speaker 3: a tough one for him to just sit on the

305
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Speaker 3: sidelines and watch. You know, they lost the series in five,

306
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Speaker 3: and you know, I think they probably would have lost

307
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Speaker 3: the series anyway even if he was able to play.

308
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Speaker 3: But I do get what he's saying and that, you know,

309
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Speaker 3: that was the last real shot they had to make

310
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Speaker 3: the finals with with Patrick, and that they did make it,

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Speaker 3: but Patrick couldn't participate, so ninety four was tough. You know,

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Speaker 3: Patrick played pretty poorly in then ninety four finals. I

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Speaker 3: think at the time he broke a record for most

314
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Speaker 3: block shots in a final series, so he was decent

315
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Speaker 3: that way. But you know, if you look, I think

316
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Speaker 3: he shot something like thirty seven, thirty four, twenty nine,

317
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Speaker 3: twenty one percent in the first four games of the

318
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Speaker 3: series or something crazy like that. Just he could not

319
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Speaker 3: score on He came Alajuan and you know, I think

320
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Speaker 3: Patrick is one of the all time great centers, but

321
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Speaker 3: Elajuwan was was better. And it showed that series, and

322
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Speaker 3: it actually explains why Starks was shooting the way he

323
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Speaker 3: was and shooting is much as he was because Patrick

324
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Speaker 3: really just could not score on a large one. Starts

325
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Speaker 3: essentially became their number one option in that series. So

326
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Speaker 3: I think Patrick felt like even though they were closest

327
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Speaker 3: in ninety four, you got the impresident Patrick almost talks

328
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Speaker 3: about ninety nine as if that were the year he

329
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Speaker 3: felt like they were closest, because you know, he knew

330
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Speaker 3: he didn't perform well in ninety four, and he was

331
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Speaker 3: part of the reason they didn't win in ninety four.

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Speaker 3: In ninety ninety's like man, I could have made that difference.

333
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Speaker 3: I could have made that a competitive series. That's the

334
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Speaker 3: feeling I've gotten from him on that.

335
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Speaker 1: You mentioned that Ewing is still beloved by Knicks fans. Obviously,

336
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Speaker 1: he's coaching at Georgetown now and has had ideas of

337
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 1: coaching in the NBA in the past. Do you ever

338
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,280
Speaker 1: foresee a future where the Knicks bring him in as

339
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Speaker 1: their coach, just as like, you know, a franchise legend

340
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Speaker 1: and a guy who could deserve a shot at the

341
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Speaker 1: highest levels.

342
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Speaker 3: You know, I felt like there was a better chance

343
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Speaker 3: of that a few years ago before he got hired

344
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Speaker 3: at Georgetown. You know, Georgetown has not been great now,

345
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Speaker 3: granted it's a different job, the recruiting aspect of it

346
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 3: is really big. Think he's gotten useful experience from the

347
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 3: standpoint of just day to day interaction with the media.

348
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Speaker 3: That was something that people kind of suggested for years

349
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,120
Speaker 3: was something that was negatively impacting his chances of getting

350
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Speaker 3: a job, just that you know, he was kind of

351
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,199
Speaker 3: a rough and rough sort of guy that reporters were

352
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 3: kind of not afraid of him, but maybe not looking

353
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,240
Speaker 3: forward to. You know, they were all afraid walking through

354
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 3: the locker room. Patrick would always have his feet stretched

355
00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 3: out and then his knees iced up in the locker room.

356
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 3: And Patrick is a long dude, and so you know,

357
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,040
Speaker 3: you had little narrow aisles in the locker room. You're

358
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,280
Speaker 3: trying not to step on people's feet, and it was,

359
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 3: you know, an effort that every reporter had the mike

360
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:37,920
Speaker 3: to not step on his feet. And I talked to

361
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:39,879
Speaker 3: one reporter that did one time stepped on one of

362
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 3: Patrick's toes. It was like petrified that Patrick was going

363
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,400
Speaker 3: to go off on. So just kind of this guy.

364
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 3: I think he's actually a really soft, warm guy. You

365
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,240
Speaker 3: just kind of have to know him. And I think

366
00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 3: that he kind of kept the media at a distance.

367
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 3: He'd also been treated in a really racist fashion by

368
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 3: you know, in some cases the media, but certainly by

369
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 3: fans in college and in high school. So I think

370
00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,639
Speaker 3: you was guarded more than anything. So you know, it

371
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,480
Speaker 3: took a while for that to wear off. I think

372
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,160
Speaker 3: maybe someone got in his ear and said, you've got

373
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Speaker 3: to be a little bit more warm with the media

374
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Speaker 3: if you want a coaching job, And so I think

375
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Speaker 3: it was finally the case by the time he got

376
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 3: to Georgetown, and I think even more so now, but

377
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,919
Speaker 3: Georgetown has it. You know, I'm not sure what exactly

378
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,040
Speaker 3: teams are looking for. I imagine winning is a big

379
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 3: part of it at the NBA level, but you know,

380
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,840
Speaker 3: I don't think Georgetown has done so well, and certainly

381
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:26,840
Speaker 3: this season are struggling. I went to the Garden. I

382
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,160
Speaker 3: went to the Saint John's Georgetown game at the Garden

383
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,560
Speaker 3: the other night. Spike Lee was kind enough to ask

384
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,479
Speaker 3: me to join him for to sit court side with him,

385
00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 3: and we were looking really George team's town team is

386
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 3: kind of rough man and Patrick wasn't coaching. I think

387
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,840
Speaker 3: he's well, I don't know if he's helping safety progoles,

388
00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,240
Speaker 3: but he hasn't been there for the last few games.

389
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,640
Speaker 3: But Georgetown had you know, they did win the biggiest

390
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 3: last year the tournament, which was cool to see for

391
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 3: him and unexpected for him, so they made their first

392
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,480
Speaker 3: tournament appearance. But I don't know that they've been so

393
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,080
Speaker 3: good year in year out that he's going to have

394
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Speaker 3: an opportunity at the NBA level as a head coach

395
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:01,960
Speaker 3: right now, at least at this moment.

396
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 4: Chris, I don't know if he saw the game last night.

397
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 4: There the Knicks and the Wolves. But in the third

398
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 4: quarter there was a play where Julius Randall went in,

399
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 4: he missed the shot, he went up for the rebound,

400
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,639
Speaker 4: he went up again and he got Foult and the

401
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 4: crowd sort of rawed. They love the effort, they love

402
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 4: the intensity. It reminded me of one of the most

403
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 4: iconic moments from the ninety three Conference finals there Bulls

404
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,600
Speaker 4: Nicks with Charles Smith. I mean, you know, he's remembered

405
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 4: for that, for not being able to put the ball

406
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 4: in the bucket with four opportunities there, more than any

407
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,800
Speaker 4: other part of his Knicks career.

408
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 2: Now to me.

409
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,119
Speaker 4: You know, we talked about Mason and McDaniel and Oakley

410
00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,760
Speaker 4: and these guys who were tough guys, so you know

411
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 4: that strong mentality. Charles Smith didn't seem to be like that.

412
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:42,600
Speaker 4: You know, he seemed to be just a nice guy

413
00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 4: who was out there, would work hard and try hard

414
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 4: and didn't quite fit what the Knicks had. How tough

415
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,800
Speaker 4: was it writing about him and talk to him and

416
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,679
Speaker 4: just about what he's remembered for by Knicks fans, because

417
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 4: you know, as I say, that sort of game, that

418
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 4: moment there against the Bulls is probably honestly, what more

419
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 4: people remember bad here than any other part of his career.

420
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I you know, I had a list of

421
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 3: guys that when I went into this, I said, Okay,

422
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,239
Speaker 3: this guy, I'm gonna write chapter about this guy, you know,

423
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 3: Riley Oakley, Mason Starks to Ewing. Certainly, I didn't go

424
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,679
Speaker 3: in expecting to write a full chapter about Charles Smith,

425
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 3: but it became pretty clear when I was going to

426
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 3: start tackling that chapter of What Happened to ninety three

427
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,360
Speaker 3: had to have a chapter on Charles Smith is very

428
00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,360
Speaker 3: clear that that part. And it's interesting because I kind

429
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 3: of feel like, in my mind the closest they got

430
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 3: was ninety four because, like you guys said before, game

431
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 3: six of that series of Starks makes the three and

432
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,399
Speaker 3: doesn't get blocked by Al they win the series right there,

433
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 3: let alone the opportunity to win in game seven where

434
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,760
Speaker 3: Stark shoots two for eighteen. So to me, you had

435
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 3: two opportunities to close that out with the Charles Smith play.

436
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 3: It was that sequence that maybe lost in that game,

437
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,440
Speaker 3: but you know, had they won that game, you stopt

438
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 3: to beat Michael Jordan one more time, and then you've

439
00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 3: got to go in the finals and play against the

440
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:01,360
Speaker 3: Phoenix team that one more games in you. But yet

441
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 3: I think that Charles Smith play stands out as more

442
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 3: heartbreaking than even John Starks his two for eighteen game.

443
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: And I think part of it is, you know, Charles

444
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,760
Speaker 3: Smith didn't have the wonderful moments to prop him up

445
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 3: the way that John Starks did. He didn't have a

446
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 3: dunk on the Bulls that was, you know, euphoric for

447
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 3: Knicks fans. He didn't have those good moments. He just

448
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 3: had that moment in a lot of people's minds, and

449
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 3: he had the injuries that would come after, so it

450
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 3: was tough. You know, I felt like I was trying

451
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 3: to humanize him a little bit. I've heard John start

452
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,400
Speaker 3: saying interviews before. I can't go one day walking down

453
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: the New York City without someone telling me how much

454
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 3: they loved the dunk and how much they still love it.

455
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 3: It's their favorite play. And just the juxtaposition between that

456
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,920
Speaker 3: and people telling me that Charles Smith gets grief from

457
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 3: fans every day about not finishing Game five the way

458
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 3: that they would have liked. And obviously it was not

459
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,720
Speaker 3: any for any lack of effort he was trying, but

460
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 3: you know, so I called else Smith. He did not

461
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: speak with me for the book, but I did call him.

462
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: I've got the impression he was kind of dodging me

463
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 3: a little bit when I was trying to reach out,

464
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 3: being email and stuff like that. I finally get a

465
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 3: cell phone number four him. I call him, and I

466
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 3: hear when he picks up the phone and says hello.

467
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 3: I hear the subway doors and the background. So that

468
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 3: was something I did not know. I realized that at

469
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 3: that moment he's still living in New York City, and

470
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:25,679
Speaker 3: I guess it makes sense based on what you know,

471
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: me hearing that. People still give HI grief about that,

472
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 3: but that's it's kind of a you just think of

473
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 3: that existence like you can't exist and just go to

474
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 3: work or get on the subway. I mean, he's extremely recognizable.

475
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 3: He still looks the same as he did during those years.

476
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 3: He's six foot nine, six foot ten, whatever he is.

477
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 3: But he also can't get on a subway without people

478
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,119
Speaker 3: making a point to mention what I imagine is one

479
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 3: of the more painful parts of his professional life as

480
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: a player, and something that it's not like he was

481
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 3: trying to do that, And you know, I mentioned in

482
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 3: the book too. He was pulled over but the police

483
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 3: after that game was just seemed like the worst day

484
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 3: ever on several levels. But I felt for him, And

485
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: in this book I also get into the fact that

486
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: Pat Riley knew very quickly that this man didn't fit

487
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 3: with his plans. On literally on day one of practice

488
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: and training camp with Charles Smith, there was an incident

489
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 3: that happened and Pat was kind of like, what did

490
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 3: we get ourselves into here? And Pat coaches him that

491
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 3: way read kind of an ugly, duckling black Swan sort

492
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 3: of thing, and I think that took a mental toll,

493
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 3: in a psychological toll on Charles, and a few people

494
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 3: say that over the course of the book just that

495
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 3: Riley after a certain point he probably saw it as

496
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 3: him trying to get Charles Smith to kind of ascend

497
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: and to take more responsibility and to play better and

498
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 3: just kind of become this tough guy that he wasn't naturally.

499
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 3: And I felt for Charles a little bit and reporting

500
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 3: that out and writing that out because it didn't seem

501
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: like it was within his control, and really for a

502
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,959
Speaker 3: team that had a bunch of guys that were kind

503
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 3: of built on Braun. Mostly this was a guy that

504
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 3: was more finessed and had a lot of skill, a

505
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 3: lot more offensive skill than most guys on the roster.

506
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 3: And think about it, he was asked to play out

507
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 3: a position. He was a power forward center who had

508
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 3: a franchise record fifty one points for the Clippers before

509
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 3: he came over in one game, and now he's being

510
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 3: asked to play small forward and being asked to guard

511
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: Scottie Pippen at six ten six eleven, Like, that's not

512
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 3: easy having to play next to Oakley and Ewing instead

513
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,479
Speaker 3: of coming off the bench and letting Mason start and

514
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 3: then being able to play his natural position there. So

515
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 3: Riley was asking a lot of him. They asked him

516
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 3: to lose fifteen to twenty pounds when he got there

517
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 3: so that he could play a smaller position. It was

518
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: not easy for Charlesmith, and I wanted to get that across.

519
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: But also I didn't think it was a lack of

520
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 3: effort from him. I think he was trying really hard

521
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 3: to fit in, but that was not who he was

522
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: as a player. I think Riley could have gotten more

523
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 3: out of him by just letting him be himself to

524
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 3: some extent and.

525
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 1: As a tough situation for Charles Smith, kind of being

526
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: the Xavier McDaniel replacement. Right, He's going forehead to forehead

527
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 1: with Michael Jordan. It's a little bit different than being

528
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: a soft spoken guy. You mentioned the sourcing and the reporting,

529
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: like the appendix is incredible. Man, all the people you

530
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: talk to, all of the sources you went back to

531
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: and checked out to get all the information into this book.

532
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 1: Did you I have a favorite player to interview or

533
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: research while you're getting these chapters settled?

534
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 3: Good question? Favorite player? I don't know if I had

535
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: a favorite player necessarily that I spoke to. I definitely

536
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 3: had favorite people, and some of the executives and stuff

537
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 3: are really helpful where their context was so wonderful. But

538
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: I have a favorite detail, Maybe that's useful. My favorite

539
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 3: detail was one Chris Child gave it to me. So

540
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: he came in ninety six, and he came in the

541
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: same year Alan Houston was signed, and the year they

542
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: traded for Larry Johnson, they traded Anthony Mason for Larry Johnson.

543
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 3: Chris Child, you know one thing I wanted to get

544
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 3: into and I think any journalists will tell you that

545
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 3: you learn the phrase show, don't tell, meaning that you

546
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 3: want to show a really good detail and show what

547
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 3: someone was or what something was about instead of just

548
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: telling somebody. It comes across better. So I wanted really badly.

549
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 3: I kept hearing about this team and kind of how

550
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 3: notorious they were from a gamble perspective. And you know, again,

551
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,160
Speaker 3: it's one thing to say that you know this team

552
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,360
Speaker 3: would bet and have hands of fifty thousand dollars at

553
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 3: any given moment or whatever. It's one thing to say that.

554
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 3: It's another thing to explain the way that Chris Child's

555
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 3: did to me that Charles Oakley was bringing leather duffle

556
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 3: back onto the plane minimum fifty thousand dollars per trip.

557
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 3: So that's one thing. Some guys told me this didn't

558
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: make it in the book, that they really didn't want

559
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,159
Speaker 3: to gamble with Charles because they knew he came up

560
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 3: with Michael and Chicago, and they were like, you know,

561
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: I basically had one or two people tell me from

562
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,959
Speaker 3: other teams, They're like, Michael, people wanted so badly to

563
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: be in with Michael Jordan that they would help him

564
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 3: cheat in the card games. And so we knew that

565
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: Oakley came up with Michael, so we wanted nothing to

566
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 3: do with his card games because we were worried that

567
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 3: we were going to get swindled. So I heard that

568
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 3: didn't include it just because I couldn't find enough corroboration

569
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 3: for it to be able to put it in the book.

570
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 3: But I thought it was interesting that some people were

571
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 3: concerned about that. But what I heard specifically is that,

572
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 3: you know, it was a team bombing exercise. These guys

573
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: were extremely competit obviously from an athletic standpoint, but also

574
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 3: just in general. They would race each other the practice facility.

575
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 3: Patrick Ewing would play the lottery every day, despite the

576
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 3: fact that he was one of the highest paid athletes

577
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: of all time during those years. So they always wanted

578
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 3: to win it stuff, and they were very competitive. Oakley

579
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 3: in particular, really loved cards, and he got angry with

580
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: teammates that would not play cards on the plane. But

581
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 3: keep in mind, Oakley Mason Ewing starts. They were paid

582
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 3: in a much different way than the young guys were

583
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: on the team, and then the newcomers and the rookies

584
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 3: and what have you. So you know they would use

585
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: the rational All I have is my per deem. Then

586
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: you know, I've got one hundred and fifty dollars here,

587
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 3: one hundred free dollars there. You know, maybe for the

588
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 3: sake of the trip, you've got a lot of money

589
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 3: with all the days combined and the perdem that you're

590
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 3: gonna have. But you know, these guys are like, that's

591
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 3: all I'm willing to gamble. I don't have enough money,

592
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 3: and you guys are playing high stakes games. I can't

593
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 3: get into that because I don't have the money to

594
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 3: pay back back if I lose. So Oakley started getting

595
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: mad about the fact that guys wouldn't participate, couldn't participate.

596
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: So what he did at a certain point, this is

597
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: what Chris Child told me in ninety six. Oakley buys

598
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 3: a credit card imprint machine, does old school line. He

599
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: basically was like, Okay, you guys can play on credit

600
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 3: Now you're gonna pay me of whatever the money is.

601
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 3: But now you ain't got no excuse, no more to

602
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 3: not participate in these games because it's not about cash.

603
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 3: Like now you can use your credit card. Like aren't

604
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 3: you happy that you can play now? So Oakley was

605
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: trying the strong arms into playing and gambling with them,

606
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 3: And that tells you that shows you. I think my

607
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: point about how much they enjoyed gambling, or at least

608
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 3: how much Charles Oakley enjoyed gambling. And I think that's

609
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 3: an example of wanting to show the reader rather than

610
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:42,239
Speaker 3: just telling them that they like to gamble. I think

611
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: that comes across way more strongly.

612
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 2: Oh wow, that is absolutely brilliant.

613
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: I can't imagine owing Charles Oakley money on record.

614
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 2: I've got to be carbon copy you owe me. That's incredible.

615
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 4: So I think Charles Oakley and Tarron Hill in the

616
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 4: two thousand and one playoffs like brief because Tarron Hill

617
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 4: already well Charles claim that Tyron already money from something

618
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 4: he had the receipts, Yeah might it might.

619
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: Have been bro It might have had the credit card receipt.

620
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt. In two thousand and one, it all

621
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: comes back to the raptors. I guess Oka is sort

622
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 2: of like the Messiah Jeri of GMS. You don't want

623
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: to gamble with them. You don't want to trade with

624
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: that guy. I don't want to mess with that. But

625
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 2: Trey talked about all the work you put into this book, Chris,

626
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: three years of your heart and soul into this book

627
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: is there a person player or personnel that you look

628
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: at a lot differently, you know, from the beginning of

629
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: this whole process. Now at this point you've got a

630
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: totally different perspective on that person.

631
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 3: Totally, I'm not sure, but mostly I think it's Riley,

632
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: you know, I thought he was the central character of

633
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: this book. You know, at one point my agent asked

634
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: me when he looked at the cover images that we

635
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: were thinking about, and we were the one that we

636
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 3: ended up with was like a four month process. It

637
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 3: was a composite. There's not a photo that exists of

638
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: those five guys together Healing, Mason, Starks, Oakley, Riley that

639
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: didn't exist. I think we took three photos that existed

640
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: and kind of placed guys, almost photoshop guys in to

641
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: look that way. But at one point my agent looked

642
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: at the photo for the cover and said, are you

643
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: sure you want Riley on the cover? And I kind of,

644
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 3: you know, side it him. I'm like, are you kidding me? Like,

645
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 3: to me, he's the central character in the book because

646
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 3: he was. He was the catalyst, at least one of

647
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 3: the catalysts along with Baby Management for the first four

648
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 3: years of that run that were so successful out of nowhere,

649
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: and then even when he leaves for Miami, he's their

650
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: nemesis in Miami and it starts a huge rivalry with

651
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: the Miami Heat. So to me, like even when he

652
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: wasn't in the picture, he was still, you know, a key,

653
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: key subject, and you know, someone that got a thorn

654
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: in the side, you know, you know, just someone that

655
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: was really gonna annoy and kind of fluster the Knicks

656
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: over the rest of those four years. So I think

657
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: it was him. I think that, you know, the depths

658
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 3: of which I've realized, the depths to which I realized

659
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 3: that he was. His messaging was crazy with regards to

660
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: the car crashes and rams headbutting each other and him

661
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 3: showing videos player before they take the court, the idea

662
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 3: that Zavier McDaniel told me that he, you know, he

663
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: got extremely exhausted from a three hour shoot around that

664
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,200
Speaker 3: they had on a December twenty sixth game before the

665
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: December twenty sixth game against the Spurs, and the fact

666
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 3: that he was so exhausted from the shoot around that

667
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 3: he almost overslept the game, and that he gets to

668
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 3: the game plays poorly because he's dead tired. I can't

669
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 3: even guard Sean Elliott, who was a guy that was

670
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: not much of a slasher during this time. It is

671
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: more of a set shooter. He then after the game

672
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 3: is over, they get blown out. He shouts at pat

673
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 3: Riley in front of the whole team in the locker

674
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: room and he's saying pat like, you're working us too hard,

675
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 3: like we don't have anything left for the games. And

676
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: pat Riley responded by saying, actually, x, you know, we've

677
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 3: got a post practice lifting program is mandatory that you

678
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: haven't been to in weeks, and I'm fining you for it.

679
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: You're not working hard enough. A guy that had a

680
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: three hour shoot around in the morning that he was

681
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 3: so exhausted that he couldn't play really and be effective

682
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: as a player. And Riley circled back and said, you're

683
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: actually not working hard enough for me. In my opinion,

684
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: that's how this guy was wired. He was telling guys

685
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 3: to knock Michael Schwarten to the floor. He was telling

686
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: his players that if they helped these players up after

687
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: knocking them down, that he would find them. It was

688
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 3: a guy that had the team trainer buy him spikes,

689
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: you know, from the sports communion store, and you know

690
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: slid into the room for a pregame speech like a

691
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: baseball slide with his spikes up, and he said, that's

692
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 3: the way I want you guys to play from now

693
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 3: and is with your spikes high, basically meaning if you

694
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 3: take somebody out because of how aggressively you slide, so

695
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 3: be it. That was the mess thing he was getting across.

696
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 3: So we knew some of that about Riley, but I

697
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 3: think some of it was even more over the edge

698
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 3: than I realized. It was just a facade that he

699
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 3: had to look at cer way and to uh, you know,

700
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 3: he got gunshy when that messaging was put across in

701
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: the media. He didn't want to come across that way

702
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: in the media. He didn't want the league gunning for

703
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 3: the Knicks and taking stuff out on the Knicks. But

704
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 3: I realized he was more kind of crazy, and like

705
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 3: I told you before about the color of the car

706
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 3: and everything else, and the idea that he was going

707
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: to tell Dave Checkets that you know, his wife, your

708
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: wife can't get she was calling to see they were

709
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 3: getting a Chevy suburban. Dave Checks was the team president.

710
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: Nick his wife's getting a Chevy Suburban for the family,

711
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: and she says, okay, Dave, I'm gonna get a forest

712
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: green when is that okay with you? And Dave Checkers

713
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 3: says that's fine. But pat Riley is within range of

714
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: the conversation. He could hear Dave Checks's wife through the phone,

715
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 3: and Riley gets this disturbed look on his face, like, Dave,

716
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: she can't get a green suburban? Are you kidding me?

717
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 3: And check It starts laughing. Riley has a complete stone face.

718
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 3: He's dead serious, and check Its is like, you're big serious,

719
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm completely serious. She can't get

720
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: a green suburban. That's that color represents the Celtics, you know.

721
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 3: Sheckets is like confused, and he then, you know, he

722
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 3: sees Riley is here, so he tells his like, okay,

723
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: don't get green. She asked for another color? Well red

724
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,439
Speaker 3: work Checket says, red is fine. I'm fine with that color,

725
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 3: and Riley looks even more perplexant than he did the

726
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 3: moment before, and he's like, you can't get red. That's

727
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 3: the bull on a red car. So this is someone

728
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: that like those sorts of anecdotes, the guy was just

729
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: wound really tight in a way that you know, I'm

730
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 3: not competitive on that level, you know, Riley might be

731
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: in a league of his own. From that standpoint, like,

732
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: I feel like you could photoshop his head on Michael

733
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 3: Jordan's body and it was like everything everything literally was

734
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 3: like And I took that personally, viewed all this stuff.

735
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 3: All of it was personal to him, and I think

736
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: sometimes it did come back to bite him and the

737
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: Nicks and then asshole it.

738
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: So I are there any plans then to maybe do

739
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 4: a fall Oh book, because when Riley leaves in this

740
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 4: book and he goes to Miami, it's almost like in

741
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 4: Goodfellows when Tommy gets murdered. It's like you lose, even

742
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 4: if it's a character. You sort of think, I don't

743
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 4: love this guy, but I sort of love the way

744
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 4: he is. You wanted to see more of him. So

745
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 4: I mean, have you considered maybe doing a follow up

746
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 4: from Riley's Miami heat point of view?

747
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 3: I had not thought of it. I mean, I'm trying

748
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 3: to think of, you know, next potential projects. I feel

749
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 3: like everyone from Spike Lee, to my agent, to my

750
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: book editor to friends of mine have asked me, like,

751
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: what's next for you? And you know, while this is

752
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 3: in people's consciousness, maybe I should come up with an idea,

753
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: but I want to give it some thought. I mean,

754
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,720
Speaker 3: I've been so into this for the last three years, really,

755
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 3: and I think because I've wrote it without any sort

756
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 3: of book leave or leave of absence, I really haven't

757
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 3: had enough time or space to really consider what's next.

758
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean, those heat teams certainly were fascinating.

759
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 3: I think part of what I benefited from in my

760
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: reporting for this book is by doing something that is

761
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: on a team that existed twenty five to thirty years,

762
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 3: people are more willing to talk and willing to step

763
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: back and say, this was a really great era, let's

764
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 3: talk about it in a way that I'm especially Riley.

765
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: I think Riley might not have the ability to do that.

766
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 3: Like Riley, I think he's on record admitting that he

767
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 3: was very close to sending like a Dan Gilbert style letter,

768
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 3: you know, after Lebron left Miami, and so it's still

769
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 3: you know, I don't know if it's wrong. The fact

770
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 3: that he was able to admit that maybe shows that

771
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 3: it's not quite as raw as it was certainly in

772
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 3: that moment. But I think you have to have even

773
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: sometimes a little bit more time go by for guys

774
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 3: to open all the way up or for them to

775
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: step back and say like, yeah, I'm ready to tell

776
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 3: this story. And so part of me feels that way

777
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 3: about it is that I kind of caught lightning in

778
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: a bottle with this one, just because I think enough

779
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 3: time had gone by to people said why not, you know,

780
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: let me talk to him, let me tell him what

781
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 3: really happened. And because of that, I got new details

782
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 3: on the finals from ninety four that had never been

783
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: out there before, a couple of details from that ninety

784
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: seven fight with the Heat that had never been out there,

785
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: Definitely some details on Riley's departure from the Knicks that

786
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 3: had not quite been out there. But you know, when

787
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: twenty five or thirty years go by, people are like, ah,

788
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm not gaining anything by holding this back.

789
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 3: It's time for people to know. And I think I've

790
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 3: benefited from a lot of people, certainly in Anthony Mason's

791
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 3: orbit too, doing that, because you know, they want people

792
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 3: to know what it was during those years and how

793
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 3: people operated, how how they clicked, how they didn't click,

794
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 3: how they didn't get along. But so I feel like

795
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 3: the next project has to have some of that where

796
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 3: there's a little bit of distance from whatever the issue was.

797
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: Can't wait to see it. You mentioned the fight between

798
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: the Knicks and the Heat or I guess they had

799
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: multiple fights. There are multiple fights on court fights throughout

800
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: this book. Which one should people go back and watch, Like,

801
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: what's the wildest fight for.

802
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 3: The Knicks in the nineteen nineties, Well, if you just

803
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 3: want to laugh a little bit because nobody was hurt,

804
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 3: I guess you know, no one was hurting any of

805
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 3: them really seriously hurt. The funniest one might be the

806
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 3: ninety three to one with the Suns, where you've got

807
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 3: Greg Anthony. Greg Anthony like a very beloved person in

808
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 3: NBA circles, someone that's you know, prominent in the NBA media,

809
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 3: now super mild mannered. I make the point in the

810
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: in the book that he, you know, he told the

811
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: Knicks during a pre draft interview that he was going

812
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 3: to run for president someday. It's like someone that had

813
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 3: it stuff together. But then sucker punches Kevin Johnson, and

814
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 3: not just sucker punches him, but Sucker punches Kevin Johnson

815
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: while he's not on the court playing because he's got

816
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 3: an ankle injury. So he comes off the bench in

817
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: the ugliest pajama pattern button down shirt you'll ever see

818
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 3: and decides to sucker punch Kevin Johnson, who, by the way,

819
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 3: as we talk about, you know, politicians and president Kevin

820
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: Johnson later become the mayor of Sacramento, interestingly enough, so

821
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: he punches Kevin Johnson. That one might be the interesting

822
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 3: one to watch, the most weird one to watch. It

823
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 3: was like two separate fights, two separate brawls. The one

824
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 3: that I think stands out the most, and I also

825
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 3: thinks most consequential to the Knicks was the one in

826
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 3: the year after that against the Bulls in ninety four

827
00:38:55,239 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 3: where Derek Harper basically supplexis Jojo English. Michael was not

828
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 3: with the Bulls at that time. But that was also

829
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,720
Speaker 3: the Scottie Pippin game where he decides to take himself

830
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 3: out of the game and Tony Kukach to the game winner.

831
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: But that fight was crazy, and you know, for some

832
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 3: of you guys that've seen the book trailer essentially like

833
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 3: a movie trailer that I had Jaane hoybuild from count

834
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 3: the dings that I had him built. He pulls footage

835
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: from that fight and they show David Stern. The fight

836
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 3: basically went right up to the stand court side, and

837
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 3: you know, players were kind of in the laps of fans,

838
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 3: and you know, in some cases the laps of the

839
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 3: minority owners of the Bulls had their daughters in the

840
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: front row, and you know, John Starts was ending up

841
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 3: like right up against them, and so it was a

842
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 3: bad situation for the NBA from where David Stern sat,

843
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 3: and David Stern was sitting three rows up at half

844
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 3: court with his wife. Then he has a completely mortified

845
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 3: look on his face. And the video that I had

846
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: Jade Hoybilt, he was worried about the league's image constantly

847
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 3: and that happening, and it happening in front of really

848
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: well heeled, high rolling fans. It prompted the league to

849
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 3: change the rules basically immediately on fights and the idea

850
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 3: that you cannot leave the bench or else we're going

851
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 3: to suspend you, you know, if you leave the bench

852
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 3: during an altercation. And that came back to bite the

853
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 3: Knicks and the Ass in ninety seven because they had

854
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 3: a three to one lead on the heat, their PJ.

855
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 3: Brown basically flips Charlie Ward over right at the end

856
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 3: of that game, and because it happened in front of

857
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: the Knicks bench, the bench clears to go kind of

858
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: go in and save Charlie Ward. But because their bench cleared,

859
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 3: everybody got suspended. They suspended six people in total between

860
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: the two teams, but five of them were Knicks players,

861
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 3: including Patrick Ewing, John Starks, Alan Houston, and Larry Johnson.

862
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 3: Basically like their four most important guys on that team.

863
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 3: And it you know, they ended up losing the series,

864
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 3: and a lot of cases, a lot of people can

865
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 3: tell you they felt like that was their best last

866
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: chance to really compete for a title. They were really

867
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: good that year. They had a little bit more offense

868
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: than normal that year. But that ninety four one is

869
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 3: the one that sticks out to me is important because

870
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 3: because of that Derek Harper play, the rules shifted to

871
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 3: then ban the idea of coming off the bench, and

872
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: that was what kind of came back to really hinder

873
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 3: the Knicks in ninety seven. That rule.

874
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 2: Well, Chris, want to thank you for coming on such

875
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: great stuff and also thank you for burning the image

876
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 2: of pat Riley running into the Knixt locker room doing

877
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 2: a baseball slide cleats up on the Knicks logo on

878
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 2: the carpet. I mean that sounds like that would hurt,

879
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: but I appreciate you. I'm sure this is a very

880
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 2: exhausting media tour this last couple of days, but you

881
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: deserve every minute of it. This is an incredible book.

882
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 2: Blood in the Garden, get it wherever you get your books.

883
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 2: So Chris, thank you so so much.

884
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 3: Thank you guys for having me. I really appreciate you.

885
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 3: Keep up all your great work.

886
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: Thanks, Chris, really appreciate it. We got to take a

887
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: quick break, but after the break, lots of good stuff.

888
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: We'll get into the Knicks game, the Knicks Wolves game.

889
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: In MSG, Frank Vogel reportedly being on the hot seat.

890
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 2: Miles Turner out until after the trade deadline. What kind

891
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: of wrench that throws into the Pacers plans. We got

892
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: a little minor trade. All that. After the break, the

893
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: first got some selling to do ourselves. All right, you're

894
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: back with no dunks. It was a quiet night in

895
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: the association, but a good one in the garden. Minnesota Timberwolves.

896
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: They took care of the next straight. At the end

897
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: they looked like the next were coming back. And then

898
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 2: Karl Anthony Towns gets the ball top of the key,

899
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: faces up, Randal hits the and one was excited. Obviously

900
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: that was the game winner to seal it. Lee, What

901
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: were your takeaways from this one?

902
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,919
Speaker 4: It definitely felt like the Knicks won this game after

903
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: that third quarter. They were down ten at the half

904
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 4: and they come back. Was a really impressive third quarter,

905
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 4: and they seemed to be in charge of that fourth quarter,

906
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 4: but it was Town's at the end. Now, Towns finishes

907
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 4: with twenty points and the game winning basket, But to

908
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 4: be honest, I'm a little disappointed with how we performed

909
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 4: in quarters two and three and a lot of the

910
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 4: fourth because the Knicks had Mitchell Robinson foul out. He

911
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 4: was in foul trouble, Taj Gibson the same, And that's

912
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 4: the sort of occasion I think where Towns really has

913
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 4: to stamp himself as the best, certainly the best big

914
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 4: man on the floor. And I didn't think he really

915
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 4: did that that He was a little bit too passive

916
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 4: in that third quarter when the Knicks made their big run.

917
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, only three shots in the second and third quarters combined.

918
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I just think that's when it. Because he

919
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 4: started off well hitting threes, he went inside for a dunk.

920
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 4: He was aggressive, and then he seemed to for some

921
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,879
Speaker 4: reason shy away from that. And again when these other

922
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 4: guys like Mitchell Robinson's a good, you know, athletic, younger guy,

923
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 4: but he was in foul troub Tash Gibson.

924
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: Respectfully, I love what.

925
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: He's brought to the league, but at this stage of

926
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 4: his career, Town should be just like really pounding him inside.

927
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 4: But anyway, the Wolves get away with it. They go in,

928
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 4: they down, there's a big run. Fourtyer's on fire again.

929
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 4: The garden's going crazy there, and it felt like the

930
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 4: Knicks were sort of pulling away from it, and then

931
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 4: the Wolves get back into it late and close it out,

932
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 4: and so a really important win for them. They got

933
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 4: good contributions from a lot of the guys, especially on

934
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: their bench. Jalen Noel I thought he was really good

935
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 4: for them last night. Beasley started off okay too. So

936
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 4: this is a surprising one of those games where you're like, wow,

937
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 4: the Knicks actually lost. It felt like they won. The

938
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 4: Wolves won, even though it felt like they sort of

939
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: gave this one away at the end.

940
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: They can both be upset with the way things went down.

941
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: A little bit right, like to give up for the

942
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: Wolves to give up forty points to the Knicks in

943
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: the third quarter, that was that was strange, and it

944
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: definitely felt like the tide had completely turned. This is

945
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 1: going to be a game, a tale of two halves,

946
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: if you will. After that Quentin Grimes lay up and

947
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: everything was popping. But yeah, Jalen Noel I thought kind

948
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: of saved the game for the timber Wolves eleven points

949
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 1: in the fourth quarter. He's been playing really well lately.

950
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: I feel like that sometimes you know, in the middle

951
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: of a season, you can see a guy start to

952
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 1: get a whole bunch more minutes. The scouting report isn't

953
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 1: necessarily out on him yet, so he's able to get

954
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: busy just shooting floater after floater after floater. That was

955
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: really clutch for the Wolves. And I also thought, what

956
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: a shot by Towns that guy Winner Man, that was

957
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: a tough shot. He's fading left, sort of out of bounds,

958
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: gets the ball back to his right and somehow gets

959
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: the right english on it, especially considering he had missed

960
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: a basically wide open layup very similar to that shot

961
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 1: with what maybe two minutes left or something like that.

962
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: So I thought that was pretty crazy, but it was

963
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: good for Towns. Afterwards, I told my dad, everyone's going

964
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: to get a chance to have their Madison Square Garden moment.

965
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: I felt that was for me tonight. That definitely was

966
00:45:07,360 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: the biggest moment he's ever had at MSG, sort of

967
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 1: his hometown team, a new Jersey guy, but right there

968
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: in the area. So yeah, I thought that was a

969
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: great win for the Wolves and they're back to five

970
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: hundred good stuff.

971
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just talking nineties with Chris Herring and Karl

972
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: Anthony Towns did it in those throwback tee Wolves jerseys

973
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: that are beauties from the nineties. You know, you got

974
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 2: to think Kevin Garnett when you see those jerseys. So yeah,

975
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,880
Speaker 2: great move. Fading left it and it is one of

976
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: those games for Karl Anthony Towns that I thought he

977
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 2: was going to fade in the fourth quarter as well.

978
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 2: John Krasinski wrote about it on The Athletic Guy, who's

979
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,479
Speaker 2: covered the Timberwolves forever. Watching Towns in the first quarter,

980
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 2: eleven points looked amazing, kind of faded in the second

981
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: and third quarter. Usually Karl Anthony Towns would also fade

982
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: in the fourth quarter and just not takeover like he

983
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: needed to, and he only got the ball on that

984
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: game winner really late in the shocklock. I think it

985
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 2: was like eight seconds left on the shock clock and

986
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: he faced up Randall and hit that really tough shot.

987
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,399
Speaker 2: So a good win for them, while the Knicks they

988
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 2: just can't put four quarters together, and you know, it

989
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: almost looked like they should have pulled this out, but

990
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: also that first half they just they yeah, they do

991
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: struggle to put together quarter after quarter after quarter. The

992
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 2: timber Wolves are coming here to Atlanta tonight, so this

993
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: is what really matters for the Timberwolves. Yeah, they're five

994
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: hundred now, they're the seventh seed in the West, but

995
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 2: these games, after the good wins, they've got to string

996
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: some together to really move up the standings. But there

997
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: is an opening for the Minnesota Timberwolves here with the

998
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: Lakers struggling, the Clippers struggling, the Nuggets injured, that they

999
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 2: could jump up and get an actual playoff spot.

1000
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 4: And they're pretty healthy right now, so no excuses. Russell's

1001
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 4: backed Ed Edwards is there. You know, they've got their

1002
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: young players. Everyone's available, and that's a huge thing right

1003
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 4: now in the NBA just being having guys not in.

1004
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: The ability, yes, available, exactly exactly.

1005
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 4: So you know, for the Wolves, if you look at

1006
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 4: them right now, yeah, you say five hundred and they're

1007
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 4: basically four five games technically up on the Kings, who

1008
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 4: are just outside the playing tournament. So right now, the

1009
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 4: Wolves certainly are in a strong position to return to

1010
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,479
Speaker 4: the least playing tournament here at that worst, I mean.

1011
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: They have to at this point. I mean, Paul George

1012
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 1: is now resting indefinitely. We don't know if we'll see

1013
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: Lillard again this season. For the Blazers, that's nine to

1014
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: ten right there. The Lakers have been struggling. They'll be

1015
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: getting Anthony Davis back in not too long, so I

1016
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: mean sixth seed should be the goal for Minnesota at

1017
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: this point. It's I mean, they could maybe catch Denver.

1018
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: I think you know, they're a game behind, but two

1019
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: losses behind in the lost column. Denver doesn't have their

1020
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: full team this year, but they're not going to have

1021
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: their full team this year, whereas the Wolves have done

1022
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: a really good job of going through some tough times

1023
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: and actually getting things back together. I mean, we could

1024
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: have given them a Winner of the Weekend yesterday for

1025
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: not being losers of the week end, right, like they've

1026
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: done a better job of being consistent recently compared to

1027
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: earlier in the season.

1028
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: It is strange. Yeah, as you said, Timberwolves are five

1029
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 2: and seven, five games up on the eleventh seeded Kings.

1030
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 2: It would be tough for them to fall out of

1031
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: the playing picture. But other news that we're not going

1032
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,360
Speaker 2: to get to Paul George, as you said, going to

1033
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 2: be resting another couple of weeks. He was going to

1034
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:14,080
Speaker 2: be reevaluated this week and he was, And unfortunate news

1035
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 2: for them, the elbow isn't healing, so two to three

1036
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: more weeks he'll be out. But positive for them. As

1037
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 2: I mentioned those teams the Lakers and the Clippers and

1038
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: the Blazers that you threw in with Damian Lillard, they

1039
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: could easily just be a ho hum team these next

1040
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 2: few weeks and hopefully get Paul George back. Kawhi could

1041
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: come back, And the fact that the Kings are so

1042
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 2: far down, you know, ten games below five hundred and

1043
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,479
Speaker 2: the eleven spot, means the Clippers could just float into

1044
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 2: the playing tournament. Insert a Kawhi and Paul George, and

1045
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 2: that's the team you do not want to face in

1046
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: that tournament. So there's some news we added in there

1047
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 2: before we get to is this news? Any comments on

1048
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 2: the Warriors went. Do you care that they took care

1049
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 2: of the Pistons pretty pretty easily. Clay had a good game.

1050
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's all it is is Clay had his best

1051
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 4: shooting game since he came back. Finished with twenty one points.

1052
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 4: Looked good, but yeah they were up what twenty eight

1053
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 4: points there at halftime.

1054
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 2: Not a real surprise. But no, you know, there's not.

1055
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,399
Speaker 4: Much a getting sort of digg into in a game

1056
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 4: that's twenty eight point halftime deficit. You're like, well, yeah,

1057
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 4: you know, so.

1058
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: I needed no nah, because we've got some news. Well,

1059
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: we've got news, But you guys tell me maybe I'm wrong.

1060
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: I'll give you a few headlines. You let me know

1061
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 2: if it's newsworthy. This first one via The Athletic and

1062
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 2: a juicy article by Bill orm and Sam Amic. The

1063
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: Lakers lost by thirty seven of the Nuggets Saturday, and

1064
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: head coach Frank Vogel's job was essentially on the line

1065
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: when LA played Utah in their next game on Monday,

1066
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 2: but the Lakers won, so Vogel is eighth for now.

1067
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: According to Orum and Amic. Are these reports news tray?

1068
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 1: Interesting? Are they news? I don't know why I didn't

1069
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: think of it as is this news? But that is

1070
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: one hundred percent the segment we're doing. So it's not

1071
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 1: news now until Frank Vogel's officially fired. So I guess

1072
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 1: it's semi news because the Lakers they're down bad right now.

1073
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: They've lost three of their last four to ten of

1074
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 1: their last sixteen, though they did get probably their best

1075
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: win of the season against the Jazz this week, but

1076
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: it's left him at twenty fourth on offense, seventeenth on defense,

1077
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 1: eighth place in the Western Conference, and everybody is apologizing.

1078
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:40,239
Speaker 1: And the worst part of this is that it's all

1079
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: happening when Lebron is playing some of his best basketball,

1080
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: because a lot of the times with the Lebron team,

1081
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: if they're struggling through the season, you're like, oh, just

1082
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: wait till Lebron turns it on. He's turned it on

1083
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: and it hasn't made a huge difference. So if he's

1084
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: playing well and the team isn't, obviously you're gonna look

1085
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: at the coach and it's kind of par for the course.

1086
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: But I don't think this is great from the Lakers

1087
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: to just keep him dangling like this. Dan Woiki reported

1088
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 1: that there are no current plans to replace Frank Vogel,

1089
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: but current is the big words, So like, how do

1090
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: you get huge buy in here when the thing that

1091
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 1: really needs to change for the Lakers is they got

1092
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: to get back to playing defense. They got to be

1093
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: a good defensive team, which will help when Anthony Davis

1094
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: gets back. But you have to have buy in to

1095
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: be a defensive defensive team that succeeds. And if you're

1096
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 1: like thinking our coach might be gone the next day

1097
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: if we have a bad game, I don't understand how

1098
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 1: that's a tenable situation. They got a six game road

1099
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: trip coming up here, gonna be one of their toughest

1100
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: stretches of the season, definitely their longest road trip. That

1101
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: can be a coach switching time. I do think similar

1102
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 1: to the Hawks last season. But we're past the halfway

1103
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: mark here. They don't have a lot of trade assets.

1104
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: Taylor Horton Tucker is apparently going to be in the

1105
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: mix now officially because that's about the only other thing

1106
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: they can do besides say goodbye to Frank Vogel. So

1107
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: one of those things is going to happen and not

1108
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,799
Speaker 1: too long, either a trade or a new guy on

1109
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: the bench.

1110
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 4: They've never really shown too much affection towards Frank Vogel.

1111
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 4: He was their third choice when they signed him a

1112
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 4: few years ago. He wins the championship in the Bubble

1113
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 4: and they only give him a one year extension. And

1114
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 4: you know, I read Mark Stein's substack. He talks a

1115
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 4: lot of people are just like, they don't show him

1116
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 4: any real respect for the fact that he won a

1117
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 4: championship there and now again, as Trey mentions, they're basically, well,

1118
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 4: we haven't got much to trade. We need to change something. Okay, Frank,

1119
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 4: you're the easiest one we can get rid of. So

1120
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,919
Speaker 4: you know that's I think that's what's going to happen.

1121
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 4: If they get out to a bad start on this

1122
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 4: road trip, Frank might not come back from it because

1123
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 4: they need to just show their fans, oh, you know

1124
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 4: we're doing something. We're going to blame him when really,

1125
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 4: I mean it's the defensive effort is bad. Westbrook hasn't

1126
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 4: been a good fit a Reza Dwight. Those guys coming

1127
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 4: in haven't really had any impact. So you know, it's

1128
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 4: more a reflection on the job Rob Polinka has done,

1129
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 4: in my opinion. But of course, when you employ everyone,

1130
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 4: you can also fire those who you want to fire.

1131
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 4: So Frank's the easiest domino here to just sort of

1132
00:53:01,560 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 4: kick out the door.

1133
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure feels like that is a plausible situation

1134
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: that Frank Vogel will be fired. Until this article came

1135
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 2: out on the Athletic I really didn't think that that

1136
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: was a scenario that they would explore at this point

1137
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: of the season with Anthony Davis out. You'd think you'd

1138
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 2: wait until Anthony Davis came back to really evaluate your defense.

1139
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: Obviously they're they're not playing well. But at the same time,

1140
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you think about Lebron. James just ain't waiting

1141
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 2: around and you have to you know, you're playing to

1142
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 2: your personnel, and Lebron needs to win every single year

1143
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 2: the rest of his career. And if you look back

1144
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 2: to the firing of the David Blatt scenario when Lebron

1145
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 2: was with Cleveland mid season, it sure worked for toront

1146
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 2: Lou coming in there. But it just doesn't feel right

1147
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 2: to me for Frank Bovogel to be danglink after he

1148
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 2: won the championship. They gave him the yeah, an extension.

1149
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: I guess now, lame one year extensions are lame duck extensions.

1150
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: I guess you know he's.

1151
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 4: That's what Nike mcmill i think and was fired after

1152
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 4: the bubble, I believe down there in Indiana. You're right,

1153
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 4: you know, it was like, here, you go have an extension,

1154
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,399
Speaker 4: but we don't really mean it because if they did,

1155
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 4: they would say, yes, he's three years exactly, so we've

1156
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 4: got some real reason here to invest in our belief

1157
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:18,399
Speaker 4: in you. But instead it's more like, we can't really

1158
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 4: fire you because you want us a championship, but we

1159
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 4: also don't want to reward you for that.

1160
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: So that's weird. I mean, I don't know if I'm

1161
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 2: just being thrifty, but yeah, you give a guy a

1162
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,680
Speaker 2: year an extension, so he's signed through twenty twenty three. Yeah,

1163
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: and now you're going to fire him and just have

1164
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: to pay him that extra year. That's just strange. But

1165
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 2: you don't want him to be a lame duck as

1166
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:42,320
Speaker 2: in this is his final year. Just one year is okay? Which, yeah, that's.

1167
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: A lot of weird stuff, Like it's seventeenth, it's seventeenth

1168
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: actually a good defense for this Lakers team, considering the

1169
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,080
Speaker 1: point Lebron has missed twelve games, Anthony Davis has missed

1170
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 1: I think twenty three games at this point. No way

1171
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,760
Speaker 1: in seventeen games at this point, So like you're missing

1172
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: two of your best players for a big chunk of

1173
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: the season. Your other defensive guys that you're running out

1174
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: there are Avery Bradley, who was picked up off the

1175
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 1: scrap heap. Yeah, Dwight Howard, who is past his prime

1176
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: at this point. Seventeenth is actually pretty solid. Maybe I

1177
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 1: don't know, but uh, I don't know. It just it

1178
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,240
Speaker 1: seems like he's gonna take the blame for a roster

1179
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:21,240
Speaker 1: that is not made to play defense.

1180
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Frank had that reputation in Indiana as being

1181
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 4: a defensive guy. So if there's a silver lining here,

1182
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 4: I think his actual reputation is going to be okay

1183
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 4: because people are gonna say, you won a championship, the

1184
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 4: Lakers didn't treat you fairly, So there will be other

1185
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 4: jobs out there for him. But it just it's like

1186
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 4: you say, the seventeenth the defense doesn't feel like that.

1187
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 4: It feels like teams.

1188
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: It's don't even worse stately too.

1189
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, teams just get into the paint anytime they want,

1190
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 4: they move the ball around, they get open shots. So

1191
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 4: it's seventeenth. Yeah, middle of the table, but doesn't really

1192
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 4: meet the eye test.

1193
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 2: You mentioned Frank Vogel as the Pacers defensive stalwart. Where

1194
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: our next headline comes from ESPN about those Piecers. Pacers

1195
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 2: big man Miles Turner expected to be sidelined beyond the

1196
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: February tenth trade deadline with a stress reaction in his

1197
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 2: left foot, possibly complicating the franchise's hopes to deal him

1198
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:17,879
Speaker 2: prior to the off season because he has been in

1199
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 2: rumors for a while now. So is Miles Turner's injury

1200
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: which is going to stand past February tenth news Lee.

1201
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 4: I would love to talk to a doctor about it

1202
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 4: to see like, is this something that is he could

1203
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 4: just heal in a couple of weeks, or could this

1204
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 4: lead to something further down because a big guy with

1205
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 4: a foot injury could potentially, you know, it's hard for

1206
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 4: him to get out and practice and get back on

1207
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 4: the court if he's carrying around essentially a broken bone

1208
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 4: there in his foot. Now, if you're the Pacers, it's

1209
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 4: like Okay, we I mean teams are just not going

1210
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 4: to trade for him or to team just go okay,

1211
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 4: it's Miles Stoner. We wanted him before we can deal with,

1212
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 4: you know, him missing a few more weeks here. So

1213
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 4: I guess we just don't really know the severity of

1214
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 4: that injury. And if it is Seville and could potentially

1215
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 4: knock him out for the rest of the season, then

1216
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 4: I think he probably doesn't get tried. But if it's

1217
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 4: considered somewhat mona, Yeah, and it.

1218
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:12,719
Speaker 2: Seems minor ish when you read into the details. He

1219
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: could be examined in two weeks or you know, he

1220
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: likely to be re examined in two weeks, trade deadlines

1221
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: a week after that, and he could be back a

1222
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: week after that. So it doesn't seem like it this

1223
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: is really a long term thing. But he's got to

1224
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: throw up some flags for teams looking to acquire Miles Turner.

1225
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I guess maybe it makes some bonus a

1226
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: smidge more likely to be traded than Miles Turner, just

1227
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: because you kind of know the situation a little bit more.

1228
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 1: Whereas Turner, you're taking a little bit of risk for

1229
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:43,240
Speaker 1: this season. They signed for next season as well, and

1230
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. That could be could give you some

1231
00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: pause if you're a team trying to acquire and thinking

1232
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: he's going to be the piece that helps get you

1233
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 1: into the playoffs, if you're a Hornets team or I

1234
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: don't know, the Mavericks something like that. So yeah, I

1235
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, it's strange. Miles Turner and it

1236
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 1: feels like Jeremy Grant are kind of the bells of

1237
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 1: the ball, right, and one of them has gone down

1238
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 1: with a stress reaction in his foot, and the other

1239
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 1: Jeremy Grant is saying I don't want to go to

1240
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 1: a team where I'm not going to be the number

1241
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: one guy there. So they're just a couple of wrenches

1242
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: thrown into the works here as we're heading into the deadline.

1243
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: But most likely, if you're convinced on Miles Turner already,

1244
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: it feels like this probably won't throw you off of that,

1245
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 1: but maybe maybe it hurts the package that the Pacers

1246
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: will be getting back.

1247
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 2: I agree, Yeah, it's still still likely that he's dealt that,

1248
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 2: I think, but I guess he shouldn't worn heels to

1249
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: the ball. Stuck a little tumble there, all right? Last

1250
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 2: headline here if that was. If that one wasn't that newsworthy,

1251
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 2: I'm not sure this one will be. It's a minor

1252
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: trade via ESPN first, a minor three team deal. The

1253
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:50,720
Speaker 2: Nuggets get Spurs shooter Bryn Forbes. The Celtics get Denver's

1254
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 2: bull Bull who was traded in a couple weeks ago,

1255
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: but he's back with the Nuggets now. He's going to

1256
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,920
Speaker 2: the Celtics along with PJ Doser, which is an interesting

1257
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 2: one who's out for the season. And the Spurs they

1258
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 2: get Boston's watch over an Anglime az in a second

1259
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 2: round pick via the Nuggets. So Trey, is this Southern

1260
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,160
Speaker 2: lawyer worthy even or no?

1261
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 1: We got all sales mine a trade. I love it.

1262
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: I actually love this trade. I think this is great

1263
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: for all three to ease. Do you make a trade

1264
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: this small? It can work out for everybody. The Nuggets

1265
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: need a little help on the perimeter. They're getting Bryn Forbes,

1266
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: who is a way better shooter than I thought. I

1267
00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: know he's a shooter. I know he's a forty one

1268
00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: percent shooter from three, But according to ESPN Stats and Info,

1269
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: he's third in three point field goal percentage over the

1270
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: past four seasons among players with more than a thousand attempts.

1271
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: That's legit right there. That's a legit shooter. He's instantly

1272
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: going to become the best shooter in their rotation. He

1273
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: wasn't a long term piece for San Antonio. They got

1274
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 1: a lot of good young guards and he's got postseason experience,

1275
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: so I think that's nice for the Nuggets to get

1276
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: him without really giving up much. PJ dojer. I actually

1277
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: like him as a player, but he's out for the

1278
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: season right now, so he's not helping Bull. Bull had

1279
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,720
Speaker 1: to have surgery. He's already out their plans, and they

1280
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 1: traded him once, so they got an upgrade for expiring

1281
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: contracts that aren't planning. Good stuff for Denver, and good

1282
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: stuff for the Celtics to save a little bit of money,

1283
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 1: and good stuff for us because we get to say,

1284
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: where's Wancho? And now he's in San Antonio, So winners

1285
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 1: all around his father As I'm concerned.

1286
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 4: I just remember Brin Forbes outscored Jimmy Butler in the

1287
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 4: playoffs last year. He is one of those guys who

1288
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 4: can get hot, but it seems like he hasn't done

1289
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 4: that for a while. But for the Nuggets, yet they

1290
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,760
Speaker 4: can use always a little bit of extra shooting around

1291
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 4: Nikola Jokic. There you mentioned Bowl Bowl. Basically it was like,

1292
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 4: all right, you're not staying here, We're going to trade

1293
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 4: you to whoever. It just takes on your contract basically,

1294
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 4: so that's it. But yeah, when I saw that trade

1295
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 4: come through, I was looking for the juicy part and

1296
01:00:45,080 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 4: Bryn Forbes is where it ended really, so I was like, okay,

1297
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 4: this is just more an admin trade, you know, paperwork

1298
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 4: type of trade.

1299
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: What's a sneaky good move I think for the Celtics

1300
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 2: because Piz a Dozer is a player that can play

1301
01:00:56,800 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 2: in their rotation. They've lacked a bench presence for a while,

1302
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 2: especially from the backup guards. By Josh Richardson has definitely

1303
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: helped out. PJ. Dosher is out for the season, as

1304
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 2: you said, Trey, but to have him long term is

1305
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: a good idea. Basically just giving up Juancho hern Gomez

1306
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 2: who hasn't been a part of the rotation, and yeah,

1307
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: maybe the Spurs can do something with another European big.

1308
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 2: Maybe you know, they've already they've already got the the

1309
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: American big and Drew you Banks, They've got the Australian

1310
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 2: big and Jacque Landale. They've got another European big in

1311
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 2: Yaka Pertle and add another one to the mixed z's.

1312
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 2: He's like my Geoffrey Laverne, I think on the San

1313
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: Antonio just another.

1314
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 4: One, Fabrizio Alberto.

1315
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's on the call. He's on the call helping

1316
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 2: out there. So watcho. In theory is a good player,

1317
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 2: but he's just never been.

1318
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always I always think he's solid. But he's

1319
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 1: on the court, but uh, teams don't play him all

1320
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 1: that much. But we'll see what he does in San Antonio.

1321
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: Two straight years though that the Spurs have made a

1322
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: mid season trade, that's a good point. The game is changed.

1323
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah maybe in the short term. As you said,

1324
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: they gave up Bryn Forbes, who is, you know, a

1325
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 2: solid players to play their young guys. What is their plan.

1326
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if they're gonna get in on a

1327
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 2: real big trade here three weeks before the deadline. Are

1328
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 2: they gonna they're gonna go all in because it looks

1329
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 2: like they're you know, at least they're wheeling and dealing.

1330
01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 2: Doesn't happen very often with the San Antonio Spurts, All right,

1331
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 2: another quickie break that we've got a tweet of the

1332
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 2: night coming up. All right, now it's time for tweet

1333
01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 2: of the night.

1334
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 3: Tweet of the night. Wow, we got tray.

1335
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: Well, we took a little road trip over the weekend. Tassie,

1336
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: me Use, Skeets and our buddy Gresh headed to Memphis

1337
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: to see the Bulls play the Grizzlies on MLK Day.

1338
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: Go and check out our YouTube page for a video

1339
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: of how that all went down. We talked about on

1340
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: the show yesterday, and we got talking about lawyer billboards,

1341
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 1: you know, shout out to Neil Flitt, shout out to

1342
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: Morris Bart, shout out to Mama Justice and Alexander Shunarov

1343
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: of course. So then we put up a tweet post

1344
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: game saying we want your NBA lawyer billboards, and y'all

1345
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: came through in a big way. Some of you even

1346
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 1: made actual billboards for these. So we'll get started with Segy,

1347
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 1: longtime stream teamer came through with better call Gasols and

1348
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 1: then added their tagline one call We're tall. That's great

1349
01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: if you need to get something off the top shelf,

1350
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: maybe that's where you keep your magic spoon. I don't know,

1351
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 1: that's rocky. I also love this from the Sydney c

1352
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: Kings slip Fall. Call Frank the Tank, We'll get you

1353
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 1: a bank. And now this to me looks like an

1354
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: actual lawyer named Frank Kaminski.

1355
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, spelled different.

1356
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: A little different spellings. The silent l of the well done. Yeah,

1357
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,919
Speaker 1: well that's really nice. That's really nice. Also good from

1358
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 1: Condre three thousand. This is a great one task, especially

1359
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:06,439
Speaker 1: with the shirt you got on out of commission after

1360
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,919
Speaker 1: a workplace injury. Get back on your fleet, wait, get

1361
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: back on your feet with Freddy van Vliet all star

1362
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 1: only one eight hundred Van Vleet. If you call that number,

1363
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: let us know what happens. And our final one comes

1364
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 1: from Adam Gaston, my favorite, getting some jams, Get up

1365
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 1: the Hans one hundred, JC Hammo, call it up Jose

1366
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:34,919
Speaker 1: calder Own for some fine Iberico hands. There's a whole

1367
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 1: bunch more of these. You can check them all out

1368
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 1: on our Twitter page at No Dunxy. We retweeted a

1369
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: bunch of them because there are a lot of great ones.

1370
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: These ones just look the best visually, because these people

1371
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: want the next step, putting them on a billboard. I

1372
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 1: got a question though, how much does it cost to

1373
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: rent a billboard?

1374
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 4: Good question? I guess, yeah, I guess you'd do like

1375
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 4: a three month sort of stint. I mean, I guess

1376
01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:00,360
Speaker 4: you could do however long you won't but sort of

1377
01:05:00,360 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 4: been like it's like, I think it's like renting in

1378
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:03,960
Speaker 4: a pom and you got to do a minimum you.

1379
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 2: Know, minimum state. They're not going to go up there

1380
01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: for an hour. Yeah, do you.

1381
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: Think it's do you think it's prohibitively expensive to do

1382
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: one billboard? We're not going to go full Morris Bart

1383
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: style where the guy's got billboards everywhere, but one single

1384
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 1: billboard somewhere down here in the south Southern lawyer. It

1385
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: looks exactly like, you know, just like colorful, weird color

1386
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,320
Speaker 1: blocking a picture of me wearing a cowboy hat, and

1387
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: it says we got all sales a podcast. Yeah, and

1388
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 1: then like has all of our social information and stuff

1389
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 1: up there. So you think it's a lawyer's billboard, but

1390
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: it's really a podcast's billboard.

1391
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 4: I like this idea. Yeah, I think we find out

1392
01:05:44,840 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 4: it doesn't cost a lot.

1393
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't, I don't think. I mean it's location

1394
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:53,080
Speaker 2: location in the big city. In the big city costs

1395
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: more than where we were. It was an incredible drive

1396
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 2: to Memphis because he just saw so many, so many Mama,

1397
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:03,320
Speaker 2: Justice for One was a great one. But no, it's

1398
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:06,320
Speaker 2: I think the cost will be fine. I think it's

1399
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,080
Speaker 2: tenable for us. We can make that happen.

1400
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: Well, if you know a billboard lesser. Yeah, if you

1401
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:18,720
Speaker 1: know somebody in the south or mid South market, definitely

1402
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 1: slide into our d M so we can price a billboard.

1403
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 1: I think if we start advertising, you know, obviously the

1404
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 1: podcast numbers will blow up.

1405
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 2: So I have to.

1406
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 1: Imagine the smartest way to do it is a billboard

1407
01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: on the side of the road. That's still an advertising way.

1408
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, according according to what I've just googled, So I

1409
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 4: haven't really been about seven to fifty per month, seven fifty.

1410
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 2: For a whole month. Yeah, one hundred and fifty dollars.

1411
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's worth it.

1412
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 4: I think.

1413
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: So that's totally worth.

1414
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 2: Its cost effective. I would think, Yeah, that's a strange thing.

1415
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:56,200
Speaker 4: It's like depends on format, circulation, demographic graphics.

1416
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 2: Right, it sounds like it's worth it. Yeah.

1417
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 1: Oh, here's another good line we could do is stuff

1418
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,040
Speaker 1: in traffic, stuck in traffic, queue up a classic.

1419
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:08,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I like that one.

1420
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: No, Dunks, send us some billboard ideas for us, because

1421
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: now I'm now I'm not thinking this.

1422
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:16,440
Speaker 2: Is a bad idea.

1423
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 1: It's a bad idea, but it's a good bad idea.

1424
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:20,200
Speaker 1: It's a good content idea.

1425
01:07:20,280 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 2: It's like you can go both ways. You think maybe

1426
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: people who don't people who look at billboards maybe aren't

1427
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 2: podcast listeners. But at the same time, they're in cars

1428
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 2: the perfect time, the absolute perfect time. But it is

1429
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 2: a strange thing just to think billboards exist.

1430
01:07:36,520 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: Billboards exist.

1431
01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the QR code. Remember when we were at the

1432
01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 2: Grizzlies game, a QR code came on the jumbo tron

1433
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: and you're able to, you know, put your camera and

1434
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 2: scan a QR codes.

1435
01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, existance.

1436
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 2: That blew my mind.

1437
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: Okay, some people are sliding in the stream. Team. I'm

1438
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 1: liking this from Ignacious Roberto, Mama Justice, Papa Wedg.

1439
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 4: Witchie's hot to sort of rhyme itself, isn't it right?

1440
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:04,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1441
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:08,280
Speaker 2: Oh, but I do like the the revenge fact, like

1442
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 2: going at Mama Justice, you know, bring it. Oh yeah, yeah,

1443
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 2: she'll She'll bring us. Some fans yeah, and she'll try

1444
01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 2: and shut us down. Who cares. That's fine, Go ahead,

1445
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 2: Mama Justice. All right, let's get to the pick them payoff.

1446
01:08:23,560 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 2: A wild one last night Minnesota at the Knicks. I

1447
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 2: was able to pull out the win because the Knicks

1448
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 2: were two and a half point dogs and they lost

1449
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,599
Speaker 2: by two. I was the only one to win that one.

1450
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 2: So I make up a game on all three of

1451
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:43,719
Speaker 2: you guys tonight. Thirteen games on the schedule, the big

1452
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 2: one we're looking at now there is a doubleheader going

1453
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 2: on on national TV. But we're excited about my Cleveland

1454
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 2: Cavaliers visiting Trey Kirby's Chicago Bulls, and same as yesterday

1455
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 2: in that three of us are taking one team and

1456
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,160
Speaker 2: try the lone Bollsman. They're at home. They're a one

1457
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,439
Speaker 2: and a half point dog, so essentially a pick them

1458
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,720
Speaker 2: and skeets myself and Lee. I'll think the Cavs will

1459
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 2: win by two or more. All the Bulls can lose

1460
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 2: by one or obviously went out right, Trey, how much

1461
01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 2: faith do you have on this in this struggling Bulls

1462
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 2: team right now?

1463
01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: Well, the news, according to Casey Johnson is that Alex

1464
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: Caruso is positive pop probable for tonight, So Alex Caruso

1465
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 1: is back. So I'm thinking the Bulls are back. New

1466
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: streak starts tonight.

1467
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,760
Speaker 2: All you're gonna say is Posito positively returning to the

1468
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 2: lineup tonight. It's always a weird one with guys coming

1469
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:40,679
Speaker 2: back for not only health and safety protocols, but Crusoe

1470
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:42,840
Speaker 2: injury as well. Yeah, in this case an injury which

1471
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 2: is like six weeks, guys been out.

1472
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's been He hasn't played for a long time,

1473
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:50,080
Speaker 1: and the Bulls defense has looked like it's a no Levine.

1474
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:54,920
Speaker 1: No Lonzo Caruso probably won't be up to full minutes capacity,

1475
01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 1: which is too bad because Darius Garland has been balling,

1476
01:09:57,280 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 1: so maybe he'll be cold.

1477
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 4: To She's gonna his hands full too. I would think

1478
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:03,559
Speaker 4: in the middle of a those big long.

1479
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:06,680
Speaker 1: That's a bounce back game for Buccie tonight. I've been

1480
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 1: thinking good, good games, sweet Boucci baby, bad games, boiled Booch.

1481
01:10:16,280 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: And he had a plate full of Bulloch great stuff.

1482
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 2: So thirteen games. We will be back tomorrow to talk

1483
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 2: about that schedule, I'm sure, because there'll be some great ones.

1484
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 2: Hopefully our man skeets will be back quickly out of

1485
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,400
Speaker 2: health and safety protocols to be with us tomorrow. Until then,

1486
01:10:33,880 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 2: clipp and bros.

1487
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: You heard it here first, have a great time, turn up.

1488
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:38,839
Speaker 1: Love you guys awesome.

1489
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Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. And remember one thing we learned

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01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:44,640
Speaker 2: on our road trip. Tray you solve this mystery that

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01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 2: I've had in my car for a long time. Every

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01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 2: time we want to film our kids, my wife will

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01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:53,679
Speaker 2: turn around, she'll turn on her camera, start recording a video.

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Speaker 2: Music cuts out, cuts out, kids get kids get so pissed.

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01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 2: The video is not a good one. But you found

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Speaker 2: a solution.

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Speaker 1: Here's the key. Put this on our TikTok. We need

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Speaker 1: to get our We needed to get our hints on

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Speaker 1: on TikTok. So here's a great TikTok hint. If you

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Speaker 1: want your music to continue playing when you record a video,

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Speaker 1: start in photo mode, hold down the photo shutter. It

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Speaker 1: switches the video and the music keeps playing.

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Speaker 2: A life hack, baby, right there, that's how you do it.

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Speaker 2: Crazy see on our TikTok. Embrace today, people,