WEBVTT - From Broken Record: Rick Rubin in Conversation with Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:20.316 --> 0:00:23.636 Hello, Hello revisionist history fans, it's been way too long. 0:00:24.276 --> 0:00:27.436 In case you're curious, we are hard at work cooking 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:30.636 up all sorts of mischief for you already. I've been 0:00:30.676 --> 0:00:34.316 to Alabama twice. That's how deep we're going this year. 0:00:35.276 --> 0:00:38.156 But while we wait for all those new episodes, I 0:00:38.236 --> 0:00:40.516 wanted to share with you an interview I did with 0:00:40.596 --> 0:00:44.036 my friend and colleague Rick Rubin. If you know your 0:00:44.036 --> 0:00:46.676 Pushkin shows, you'll know that Rick is the driving force 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:50.676 behind our music podcast Broken Record, in addition, of course, 0:00:51.076 --> 0:00:54.036 to being maybe the most important music producer of his generation. 0:00:54.436 --> 0:00:57.636 I mean, he's worked with Metallica, Adele, Johnny Cash, the 0:00:57.636 --> 0:01:00.956 Beastie Boys, jay Z, the Chili Peppers, Neil Young, on 0:01:01.076 --> 0:01:04.036 and on. I met Rick years ago, and I've been 0:01:04.076 --> 0:01:07.476 out to Shangrilot many times, which is the famous recording 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:10.316 studio Rick runs up in Malibu. Rick and I once 0:01:10.356 --> 0:01:13.876 interviewed Bruce Springsteen together, which is an experience I'll never forget. 0:01:14.356 --> 0:01:17.516 If you meet Rick, you'll understand immediately what makes him 0:01:17.556 --> 0:01:20.196 such a brilliant producer, because he's one of the most 0:01:20.316 --> 0:01:24.996 open and generous listeners I've ever met. Anyway, over the 0:01:25.036 --> 0:01:27.916 last couple of years, very quietly, Rick's been working on 0:01:27.996 --> 0:01:32.276 a book about creativity called The Creative Act, A Way 0:01:32.316 --> 0:01:35.916 of Being. I read it in one sitting. I loved it, 0:01:36.436 --> 0:01:38.356 and I called up Rick and I asked him, can 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:41.396 we talk about it? And what follows is that interview 0:01:41.756 --> 0:01:44.316 which I wanted to share with all of you. We 0:01:44.356 --> 0:01:47.236 read it in the Broken Record feed for the music diehards, 0:01:47.436 --> 0:01:49.636 but I thought it made sense to oneted again here 0:01:50.116 --> 0:01:53.436 because although it's a book about creativity by a music producer, 0:01:53.916 --> 0:01:57.156 and many of the examples Rick talks about are about music, 0:01:57.636 --> 0:02:02.036 it's not a music book. It's this beautiful exploration about 0:02:02.036 --> 0:02:04.796 how to open up your imagination that I believe has 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:09.996 useful insights for all of us. Anyway, here goes our conversation. 0:02:10.556 --> 0:02:11.676 I hope you enjoy it. 0:02:20.156 --> 0:02:22.116 Rick Hey. 0:02:22.276 --> 0:02:24.396 So I have a million questions, and I thought the 0:02:24.636 --> 0:02:28.836 fun thing to do would be to go through and 0:02:29.516 --> 0:02:32.516 I would just read you things I underlined, because there 0:02:32.516 --> 0:02:33.956 are things that I would love for you to talk 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:36.276 or that we could talk about, but to you in particular. 0:02:36.316 --> 0:02:38.236 But one of the fantastic things about this book is 0:02:38.236 --> 0:02:42.236 that I'm almost rarely read a book where I felt 0:02:42.236 --> 0:02:45.796 like I was being invited to contribute. 0:02:46.476 --> 0:02:47.076 Do you know what I mean? 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:49.676 Like, every time you made a point, I was like, Oh, 0:02:49.796 --> 0:02:53.396 I have something to add about that or this. I mean, 0:02:53.476 --> 0:02:55.036 I've never read a book like that where I'm like, 0:02:55.276 --> 0:02:57.956 half the time I'm talking to myself as I'm reading it. 0:02:58.436 --> 0:03:00.156 So that's what I thought. We would get into that 0:03:00.196 --> 0:03:00.996 as well a little bit. 0:03:01.436 --> 0:03:04.796 But that's great, that's great. I'm so happy. First of all, 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:07.836 I'm happy you like it, happy you read it, happy 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:09.676 you like it, and I'm happy that it had that 0:03:09.716 --> 0:03:11.876 effect on you. And there was I will tell you 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:15.316 there was a version of the book, an unsuccessful version 0:03:15.356 --> 0:03:20.556 of the book, maybe four years ago, that talked about 0:03:20.596 --> 0:03:22.596 a lot of the same stuff that the book talks about. 0:03:22.596 --> 0:03:28.476 The content was similar and the writing was beautiful, but 0:03:28.596 --> 0:03:32.476 it wouldn't have elicited the reaction that you had, and 0:03:32.516 --> 0:03:36.276 that's why it didn't come out then. And from the beginning, 0:03:36.396 --> 0:03:39.516 the purpose of the book was always I want people 0:03:39.556 --> 0:03:42.076 to make great things. I want people, I want as 0:03:42.196 --> 0:03:44.636 much beautiful art in the world as possible. I'm a 0:03:44.636 --> 0:03:47.716 fan of beautiful things and exciting things and new things 0:03:48.276 --> 0:03:52.676 happening all the time. And the book was like a 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:56.556 call to arms to go out and make something beautiful 0:03:57.116 --> 0:03:58.276 change the world. You know. 0:03:59.756 --> 0:04:02.556 So I've known questions, but I wanted to start with 0:04:02.596 --> 0:04:05.956 a very general one, which is, because you're in a 0:04:06.036 --> 0:04:09.596 world of music, we're reading a lot of this through 0:04:09.636 --> 0:04:12.756 the lens of music. We're assuming you're talking about musicians, 0:04:12.756 --> 0:04:15.596 and you give examples of musicians from timesam From time 0:04:15.636 --> 0:04:19.716 to time. You also talk about visual artists. You add 0:04:19.756 --> 0:04:23.196 that into the mix. But I was curious about are 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:27.196 we really talking about all art here or is there 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:29.996 a difference in the way that music and visual art 0:04:30.036 --> 0:04:33.356 are done that you're specifically speaking to. 0:04:34.556 --> 0:04:39.276 I think it's how all creative choices are made. So 0:04:40.236 --> 0:04:43.396 not only does it include the visual arts, it includes 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:48.076 starting a new business, a new recipe you're making as 0:04:48.116 --> 0:04:53.396 a chef, architectural choices you might make, solving a problem 0:04:53.436 --> 0:04:58.036 in life where you're not getting along with a family 0:04:58.076 --> 0:05:01.756 member and you want to get closer to them and 0:05:01.796 --> 0:05:05.316 have better communication. Yeah. Originally I thought of it as 0:05:05.356 --> 0:05:10.196 more of a how to book about creativity. It became 0:05:10.476 --> 0:05:13.596 a book about how to be, how to be in 0:05:13.636 --> 0:05:16.236 the world to allow creativity to happen, and as it 0:05:16.276 --> 0:05:18.036 turns out, how to be in the world that allows 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:21.436 creativity to happen, solves a lot of issues. 0:05:21.796 --> 0:05:25.236 Yeah, I did feel like about halfway through, I began 0:05:25.356 --> 0:05:28.716 to forget you were in music, and I felt like 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:32.196 he was starting to talk more broadly about everyone. It's 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:34.916 hard to escape the assumption that this is going to 0:05:34.916 --> 0:05:37.596 be a book about music at the very beginning. But 0:05:37.916 --> 0:05:39.436 so there's a couple I'm want to start reading to 0:05:39.436 --> 0:05:42.796 you some things and getting you to to talk about 0:05:42.796 --> 0:05:47.356 them a little bit. One is without the spiritual components 0:05:47.396 --> 0:05:50.356 from page from the chapter called the Unseen. Without the 0:05:50.396 --> 0:05:55.236 spiritual component, the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. It's 0:05:55.276 --> 0:05:59.636 a really really interesting idea, and one weirdly that I 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:03.316 had heard that phrase that way before. What is a 0:06:03.396 --> 0:06:08.156 disadvantage here? And what are you meaning by the term 0:06:08.316 --> 0:06:09.916 spiritual component? 0:06:11.036 --> 0:06:15.996 The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different, 0:06:16.036 --> 0:06:21.636 whatever it is. It could be believing in some universal power, 0:06:22.356 --> 0:06:24.916 believing that if you walk under a ladder you'll have 0:06:24.996 --> 0:06:27.796 bad luck. You know, it could it could be anything 0:06:27.836 --> 0:06:33.956 that takes you out of the ordinary to allow you 0:06:34.076 --> 0:06:40.076 to see a wilder potential is good. When you're making art. 0:06:40.876 --> 0:06:43.196 The goal of making art is not to show you 0:06:44.196 --> 0:06:49.436 just what everybody else sees. It's to see what's possible, 0:06:49.756 --> 0:06:54.876 and what's possible is radical. It really is radical. It's 0:06:54.876 --> 0:06:58.796 like we've built very a very small world for ourselves 0:06:59.116 --> 0:07:03.196 with our reason. Have you ever had a mystical experience 0:07:03.556 --> 0:07:04.236 in your life? 0:07:04.556 --> 0:07:04.796 Yeah? 0:07:05.756 --> 0:07:08.076 Okay, do you want to describe it at all? 0:07:08.436 --> 0:07:12.076 Oh? Well, I mean maybe my definition of mystical I 0:07:12.116 --> 0:07:12.676 have had him. 0:07:12.676 --> 0:07:15.756 I'm open, I'm wide open whatever however you describe it. 0:07:15.916 --> 0:07:21.116 I mean, I've had moments probably around the death of 0:07:21.156 --> 0:07:24.396 my father would be an example of the death of 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:26.196 my father, was a lot more than just about the 0:07:26.236 --> 0:07:27.876 death of my father. I guess that's the best way. 0:07:28.156 --> 0:07:31.996 You become aware in that moment that oh, he's part 0:07:32.036 --> 0:07:36.436 of joining going somewhere whatever, much much, much, much, much 0:07:36.516 --> 0:07:39.996 larger and older than we would have imagined. That's that 0:07:40.116 --> 0:07:42.476 was probably the closest I came to that, that I 0:07:42.516 --> 0:07:46.676 saw that in the gift of my grief, was that, yes, 0:07:47.276 --> 0:07:48.476 was becoming aware of that. 0:07:49.276 --> 0:07:52.476 Would you say that based on that you have been 0:07:52.516 --> 0:07:56.756 able to live at times in a deeper way based 0:07:56.796 --> 0:07:59.196 on that experience. Did it opened something into you to 0:07:59.316 --> 0:08:02.036 allow you to see more than you saw before? 0:08:02.716 --> 0:08:05.876 Yes, I have, absolutely I would. I would count that 0:08:05.996 --> 0:08:09.956 experience as one of the most crucial of my life. 0:08:09.956 --> 0:08:11.676 And in a million years, I would never have thought 0:08:11.676 --> 0:08:14.476 that the death of someone I love more than anyone 0:08:14.476 --> 0:08:16.676 else would open me up in that way. 0:08:17.716 --> 0:08:21.756 That would be an example of touching something. I would 0:08:21.756 --> 0:08:27.596 say spiritual, something unseen, something from beyond, something that wouldn't 0:08:27.596 --> 0:08:31.796 have made sense to you before it happened. Yeah, if 0:08:31.796 --> 0:08:33.636 someone would have described it to you, you might have thought, 0:08:33.716 --> 0:08:36.076 that doesn't really make sense to me, But then you 0:08:36.116 --> 0:08:40.516 got to feel it, and then you understood. And belief 0:08:40.596 --> 0:08:42.076 is that way. There's a part in the book that 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:46.716 talks about what you believe in doesn't have to be true, 0:08:46.876 --> 0:08:51.716 that doesn't really matter, but belief has a power, and 0:08:52.196 --> 0:08:54.916 belief allows you to go further than you thought you 0:08:54.956 --> 0:09:00.916 can go. Yeah, and there are a lot of tools 0:09:00.956 --> 0:09:06.676 in the book that talk about overcoming voices that tell 0:09:06.756 --> 0:09:10.156 us we can't do things because we've learned we can't 0:09:10.156 --> 0:09:13.876 do things. You know, we've learned what's possible and what's impossible. 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.716 And if we accept what's possible and what's impossible, we 0:09:17.796 --> 0:09:21.316 can't go beyond. If the Wright brothers accepted it was 0:09:21.356 --> 0:09:25.276 impossible for man to fly, we still wouldn't be flying. 0:09:26.916 --> 0:09:32.636 All of the great revolutions that have happened have happened 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:36.396 because someone believed in something that everyone thought wasn't possible. 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:40.396 Yeah, this taps into a larger theme in your book, 0:09:40.396 --> 0:09:44.076 which I thought was really powerful, which is time and 0:09:44.076 --> 0:09:46.356 again you come back to the idea that the artists 0:09:47.076 --> 0:09:51.316 one of the artist's jobs is our obligations is to 0:09:51.356 --> 0:09:54.236 look outside of him or herself. I mean, you do 0:09:54.316 --> 0:09:57.156 talk about how you need there's that chapter where you 0:09:57.156 --> 0:10:00.036 talk about the importance of paying very close attention to 0:10:00.116 --> 0:10:03.756 what's going on inside your own head and heart. Like 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:07.116 here's an example not long after that first quote, when 0:10:07.156 --> 0:10:09.956 looking for a solution to a creative problem, pay close 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:12.956 attention to what's happening around you. And what I love 0:10:12.996 --> 0:10:17.076 about that is like, it's not that you think back 0:10:17.116 --> 0:10:20.596 over your history, remember some important thing you read five 0:10:20.676 --> 0:10:22.956 years ago written by some genius. No, No, you're talking 0:10:22.996 --> 0:10:27.276 about in the moment here and that look around and 0:10:27.316 --> 0:10:31.956 you can find kind of solutions clues, what have you 0:10:32.156 --> 0:10:35.716 just in the kind of most prosaic details of your 0:10:36.316 --> 0:10:38.636 existence at that moment, like in the room where you. 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:42.956 Are, yes now I can't say it works one hundred 0:10:42.956 --> 0:10:46.076 percent of the time. It's not saying that, it's saying 0:10:46.116 --> 0:10:48.836 that if you live in a way where you're really 0:10:48.876 --> 0:10:52.716 open and paying attention to everything around you, the answers 0:10:52.756 --> 0:10:56.716 you're looking for are knocking on the door all the time. 0:10:57.316 --> 0:11:02.236 They don't come when you're searching for them. They come 0:11:02.316 --> 0:11:05.276 when you're open and allow them to come. One of 0:11:05.276 --> 0:11:06.836 the things that I talk about in the book is 0:11:08.236 --> 0:11:11.476 if you have a problem them to solve, instead of 0:11:11.516 --> 0:11:15.756 thinking about it, hold the question in your awareness and 0:11:15.796 --> 0:11:18.796 go for a walk or swim or do something that 0:11:19.796 --> 0:11:22.636 takes your mind off of what you're trying to solve 0:11:23.236 --> 0:11:27.396 and engages you in something else. Yeah, and most often 0:11:27.436 --> 0:11:30.676 when you're engaged in something else, the part of you 0:11:30.756 --> 0:11:34.436 that's in the way of solving the problem loses its 0:11:34.516 --> 0:11:39.556 control over you, and you through whatever it is. You 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:42.876 can find a way to go for a drive something 0:11:42.916 --> 0:11:45.316 where you have to you have to pay attention enough. 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:49.436 If you're driving, you can sort of drive on autopilot 0:11:49.556 --> 0:11:52.436 in you know, without really paying attention. But if you're 0:11:52.476 --> 0:11:54.796 really not paying attention, you'll crash. You mean, you can 0:11:55.116 --> 0:11:58.476 you can tune out that much. So there is some 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:02.916 part of you that's occupied when you're driving with the 0:12:03.236 --> 0:12:03.876 work at hand. 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:07.236 The reason I thought that was interesting was I wondered, 0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:08.996 I mean that one thing that struck me, And I 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:12.716 could be totally wrong, but my sense is that increasingly, 0:12:13.276 --> 0:12:15.796 in a lot of creative fields, creativity is defined as 0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:21.356 something that is internal and deliberate. You look within yourself 0:12:21.396 --> 0:12:23.756 and your own experience and you mind them for and 0:12:23.796 --> 0:12:27.996 you're talking about something that is in part external and unconscious. 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:32.156 And I have a good friend who's a screenwriter, and 0:12:32.196 --> 0:12:35.916 I think by virtue of being my friend and watching, 0:12:36.276 --> 0:12:38.436 I'm a reporter, a journalist, you know, I call people 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:42.076 up and interview them and record what they say. He's 0:12:42.196 --> 0:12:45.076 changed the way he writes screenplays. Now he does as 0:12:45.156 --> 0:12:48.316 much reporting as he does as much as someone who's 0:12:48.316 --> 0:12:51.236 writing a nonfiction book. And he's doing it not because 0:12:51.236 --> 0:12:53.796 he's just cutting and pasting what he hears in the world. 0:12:53.836 --> 0:12:55.516 To do is but he's doing a version of what 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:58.636 you're talking about, which is he's opening himself up to 0:12:58.716 --> 0:13:02.276 the if he wants to talk about, you know, scientists, 0:13:02.356 --> 0:13:04.196 he goes and talks to lots and lots of scientists, 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:06.756 and it opens him up to the way they think 0:13:06.836 --> 0:13:11.836 and feel, and that kind of approach to creativity strikes 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:13.476 me as being one that seems out of vogue in 0:13:13.516 --> 0:13:15.236 a certain way. I mean, it's not what they're teaching 0:13:15.236 --> 0:13:16.076 in writing schools. 0:13:16.596 --> 0:13:18.956 No, it's not what they're teaching. And there was a line, 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:20.476 there's a line in the book and I only know 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:22.716 it because I was working on the audiobook yesterday and 0:13:23.076 --> 0:13:27.356 I read it yesterday, and it's against funny, counterintuitive line 0:13:27.796 --> 0:13:34.756 that self expression is not about you and it's just 0:13:34.796 --> 0:13:37.596 such a and when I read it, you know, it's 0:13:37.596 --> 0:13:40.756 stopped me in my tracks, even though it's an idea 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.556 from several years ago, but it hit me hard again, 0:13:43.956 --> 0:13:49.036 you know, recognizing it. So everything we are comes from 0:13:49.036 --> 0:13:52.356 outside of us. The data that we take in from 0:13:52.436 --> 0:13:54.636 which we make, whatever it is that we make comes 0:13:54.636 --> 0:13:56.916 from outside of us, all of it. None of it 0:13:56.956 --> 0:14:01.396 starts with us. Everything starts outside of us. So we 0:14:01.436 --> 0:14:03.556 have a storehouse of all of the stuff that we've 0:14:03.556 --> 0:14:07.156 experienced over the course of our lives. And then we 0:14:07.276 --> 0:14:12.516 can find connect between those things, and we can find 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:16.356 connections between those things from the past and these things 0:14:16.356 --> 0:14:20.156 happening now, whatever it may be. And when you're looking 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:25.316 for it. It's surprising how often the answers are right there. Yeah, 0:14:25.596 --> 0:14:25.996 this is. 0:14:26.476 --> 0:14:30.196 Read another one of my favorite lines. Distraction is not procrastination. 0:14:30.956 --> 0:14:34.956 Procrastination can consistently undermines our ability to make things. Distraction 0:14:35.236 --> 0:14:38.116 is a strategy in service of the work, which is 0:14:38.156 --> 0:14:41.396 to your point. So a lot of what this exposure 0:14:42.396 --> 0:14:44.436 to the world outside of us is about is a 0:14:44.516 --> 0:14:47.996 kind of productive distraction, right, That's what you're saying. 0:14:47.756 --> 0:14:51.516 With that, it's a combination. There's a productive distraction and 0:14:51.556 --> 0:14:55.036 an inspiration. The connection with the outside world also can 0:14:55.076 --> 0:14:57.516 be really inspiring. It can be inspiring if you pick 0:14:57.556 --> 0:15:00.236 places that are inspiring. I try to pick places to 0:15:00.316 --> 0:15:02.996 be where I find inspiration on a daily basis. 0:15:03.316 --> 0:15:05.756 You have a little moment where you're talking about how 0:15:05.796 --> 0:15:10.876 different all of us have different strategies, or that kind 0:15:10.916 --> 0:15:14.076 of inspirational place, and you said Andy Warhol was said 0:15:14.116 --> 0:15:16.476 to create with a television, radio, and record player all 0:15:16.476 --> 0:15:19.556 on simultaneously. For eminem the noise of a single TV 0:15:19.636 --> 0:15:22.876 set is his preferred backdrop. Marcel Bruce lined his walls 0:15:22.876 --> 0:15:26.796 with soundless absorbing cork clothes, the drapes and warrior plugs. 0:15:27.316 --> 0:15:29.596 And I was curious what's yours. Do you have a 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:30.676 kind of mode like that. 0:15:31.556 --> 0:15:34.836 I would say I like to be in a quiet place, 0:15:35.676 --> 0:15:41.116 big beautiful nature, less people. Yeah, i'd say natural beauty 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:42.836 and less people. It's funny. 0:15:42.836 --> 0:15:44.436 I'm exactly the opposite. 0:15:44.756 --> 0:15:45.236 I was right. 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:47.716 I had a very productive morning in a coffee shop. 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:51.196 It was crowded and I was seating it like literally 0:15:51.676 --> 0:15:55.596 right up against this six foot four kid, I think 0:15:55.596 --> 0:15:58.476 it was like twenty two years old, sitting next to 0:15:58.516 --> 0:16:01.756 his parents, and the kid was super interesting, and he 0:16:01.876 --> 0:16:05.436 was talking about the PLO in the nineteen seventies and 0:16:05.556 --> 0:16:10.596 wow yair Arafat and there was something about like, I 0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:12.236 don't know, I can't put my finger on what. That 0:16:12.356 --> 0:16:14.836 kind of triggered. After a while, I kind of he 0:16:14.916 --> 0:16:17.876 became my background noise. But it was such a different 0:16:18.076 --> 0:16:21.356 voice that I was fixing a chapter of something I 0:16:21.356 --> 0:16:24.556 was working on, and I just saw suddenly sound a solution, 0:16:24.636 --> 0:16:26.636 And I think it was what we were talking about. 0:16:26.676 --> 0:16:30.316 It was some combination of there's something about that being 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:34.916 surrounded by unusual voices that really wakes me up to 0:16:34.996 --> 0:16:37.956 the range of solutions. Right, I'm a reminder. Oh, there's 0:16:38.036 --> 0:16:40.436 like there's this kid who's thinking about something I don't 0:16:40.476 --> 0:16:45.636 think about in a context I'm not in. Who's super interesting, Like, wow, 0:16:45.716 --> 0:16:47.356 so you know there's a solution out there. 0:16:47.396 --> 0:16:47.716 It was that. 0:16:47.756 --> 0:16:49.996 It was funny because I had just read your chapter 0:16:50.036 --> 0:16:51.956 which talks about that, and I was in that situation. 0:16:52.596 --> 0:16:54.876 Is is that a place that you go to every day? 0:16:56.196 --> 0:17:00.636 Many days? I like, I need I need so, I 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:04.316 need voices, I need noise and voices and activity in 0:17:04.396 --> 0:17:08.596 order to be able to create. During the pandemic, I 0:17:08.596 --> 0:17:12.276 had one Stirgle Simpson album that I played over and 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:13.076 over and over again. 0:17:13.676 --> 0:17:14.556 He was my voice? 0:17:14.916 --> 0:17:15.716 Was it meta? Modern? 0:17:15.836 --> 0:17:16.076 Meta? 0:17:16.156 --> 0:17:17.876 What is that album? Fantastic album? 0:17:17.876 --> 0:17:18.116 Whatever? 0:17:20.556 --> 0:17:23.356 He's great. I don't know if he's out there. He 0:17:23.356 --> 0:17:27.556 helped me through is that many many lean times during 0:17:27.596 --> 0:17:32.116 the pandemic. But that idea, I almost feel like you're 0:17:32.156 --> 0:17:36.316 describing the things you have learned by working with elite 0:17:36.356 --> 0:17:39.716 practitioners of the art of creativity. But I was struck 0:17:39.756 --> 0:17:43.036 by the gap between what you've learned from the top 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:47.236 performers and what we're teaching to people at the outset, 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:50.596 and that it concerned me. I almost feel like there's 0:17:50.596 --> 0:17:53.836 a gap between what we're telling people and what the 0:17:53.916 --> 0:17:54.916 truly creative. 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:58.156 Are doing Yes, yes, that's true. 0:17:58.516 --> 0:18:01.796 On the same point on this gap. There's a moment 0:18:01.836 --> 0:18:03.716 when you're talking about it's actually my favorite part of 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:07.996 the book, when you're talking about strategies for unblocking yourself 0:18:08.396 --> 0:18:11.516 into all the different ways that you think about that 0:18:11.636 --> 0:18:14.836 or approach that. When you're working with people and one 0:18:14.876 --> 0:18:17.996 of them was right, writ in the voice of someone else, 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:21.276 that's right, that's what we said, and Rick, once again, 0:18:21.916 --> 0:18:26.556 in the world we live in, that is an incendiary thought. 0:18:27.356 --> 0:18:30.996 That's called appropriation. And you have this beautiful I want 0:18:31.036 --> 0:18:35.476 to quote in a similar vein you say there are 0:18:35.516 --> 0:18:39.756 countless examples of imitation turning into legitimate innovation. Having a 0:18:39.836 --> 0:18:42.996 romanticized vision of an artist, genre, or tradition may allow 0:18:43.036 --> 0:18:45.716 you to create something new because you see it from 0:18:45.756 --> 0:18:49.236 a different perspective than those closer to it. So not 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:51.196 only are you saying that it can be really useful 0:18:51.236 --> 0:18:55.476 to inhabit someone else's voice or tradition, you're also saying 0:18:55.516 --> 0:19:00.276 that that can spark a whole new, more beautiful, greater 0:19:01.156 --> 0:19:04.436 kind of innovation because you're approaching it from your own perspective. 0:19:04.476 --> 0:19:06.956 You talk about Sergio Leoni spaghetti westerns, being a good 0:19:06.956 --> 0:19:09.956 example of that that they transform understanding of what a 0:19:10.156 --> 0:19:12.876 what a question is. I thought a lot about the 0:19:12.956 --> 0:19:16.676 audiobook we did with Paul Simon when he's talking about Graceland, 0:19:17.036 --> 0:19:18.996 which is that right, yes? 0:19:20.316 --> 0:19:24.116 Or or talking heads you know, remain in light or 0:19:24.156 --> 0:19:28.596 fear of music. Those were inspired by African rhythms. Yeah, 0:19:29.036 --> 0:19:32.716 there's a great tradition in doing this. I mean pretty 0:19:32.756 --> 0:19:37.476 much the best of everything was based on something else always, 0:19:38.156 --> 0:19:41.196 and then it's the it's through the new interpretations. Like 0:19:41.236 --> 0:19:45.476 the Beatles were doing American motown music, but because they 0:19:45.476 --> 0:19:49.276 were English and because of the distance, they weren't trying 0:19:49.356 --> 0:19:51.956 to do it different. They did it different because they 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:54.436 were different, and that was the beauty of it. And 0:19:54.436 --> 0:19:57.716 that's how the Beatles became the Beatles. You know. Yeah, 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:00.476 they became the Beatles because they are the Beatles. But 0:20:00.596 --> 0:20:03.156 the music they were doing was they were trying to 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:04.196 do motown. 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:06.036 Or as you point out, the Ramones were trying to 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:08.316 be the Bay City Rollers, yes. 0:20:08.516 --> 0:20:09.116 Which is a true. 0:20:09.556 --> 0:20:09.716 Yeah. 0:20:09.796 --> 0:20:13.076 Johnny Ramone told me that himself, so I know that 0:20:13.156 --> 0:20:13.756 to be true. 0:20:13.876 --> 0:20:15.756 It is so for those of you who don't know 0:20:15.796 --> 0:20:19.476 the basy De Rollers, they were just about the dumbest 0:20:19.516 --> 0:20:22.356 bubble bubble gum band of the they were't like the 0:20:22.396 --> 0:20:27.356 boy band of the early seventies, and the Ramones think that. 0:20:27.356 --> 0:20:29.596 Well, they had that song s A t U r 0:20:29.836 --> 0:20:32.876 d A y s A t u y. And then 0:20:32.916 --> 0:20:36.636 if you listen to the Ramones, they have those type 0:20:36.676 --> 0:20:40.996 of gabba gabba we accept, you know, similar types of chance. 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:43.836 Yes, that's right, Yeah, they take it and they twist 0:20:43.836 --> 0:20:48.596 it in this brilliant, beautiful, revolutionary way. But so we 0:20:48.876 --> 0:20:50.476 walk about it was sort of harp on this, but 0:20:50.996 --> 0:20:53.756 how do we get away from that notion? So it 0:20:53.876 --> 0:20:55.916 is legitimately the case. And I know this because I 0:20:55.956 --> 0:20:59.516 are examples of people who I know who are legitimately 0:20:59.596 --> 0:21:03.636 terrified of even so much as dipping their toe in 0:21:03.716 --> 0:21:08.996 another traditionary voice for fear of being criticized. It's almost 0:21:08.996 --> 0:21:13.956 like we're terrified of the sources of creativity. We're terrified 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:15.996 to admit to ourselves what we're doing in the name 0:21:16.036 --> 0:21:16.756 of creativity. 0:21:17.516 --> 0:21:22.876 The reason someone imitates someone else is because they love 0:21:22.956 --> 0:21:27.236 someone else. That's why it's only flattery when someone is 0:21:27.276 --> 0:21:29.916 inspired by someone else. If you if you decided to 0:21:29.916 --> 0:21:33.236 write because someone else wrote and you like their writing, 0:21:33.276 --> 0:21:36.996 and you decide to become a writer that's not against them, 0:21:37.276 --> 0:21:40.916 that doesn't take anything away from them. That's a tribute 0:21:40.916 --> 0:21:44.156 to them. Yeah, and all of the music that gets 0:21:44.196 --> 0:21:48.516 made based on loving someone else's music is a tribute 0:21:48.516 --> 0:21:51.156 to them, whether it be people of the same color 0:21:51.196 --> 0:21:53.316 or different color. It doesn't matter that it has nothing 0:21:53.356 --> 0:21:55.796 to do with that. That's not what it's about. Yeah, 0:21:55.996 --> 0:21:59.276 it's a current misread of the situation. 0:22:00.076 --> 0:22:01.876 Yes, you know what it is. And it goes to 0:22:01.876 --> 0:22:03.556 something else. You talk a little bit. You talk about 0:22:03.556 --> 0:22:06.756 the abundance mindset. In getting to that part of the book. 0:22:06.836 --> 0:22:10.756 You talk about the importance of understanding that number of ideas, 0:22:10.836 --> 0:22:14.556 essentially the number of ideas out there is infinite, not finite. Yes, 0:22:14.676 --> 0:22:18.356 when you understand it's infinite, then you're not scared of 0:22:18.956 --> 0:22:21.876 imitating someone because you're like, there's a million things out there. 0:22:22.076 --> 0:22:24.036 We don't we don't have to hold tightly to what 0:22:24.076 --> 0:22:28.476 we've done and be react in a hostile manner if 0:22:28.476 --> 0:22:32.596 someone tries to imitate us because there's a million efficiency, 0:22:32.716 --> 0:22:35.596 you know, it's fine. I think the idea that the 0:22:35.676 --> 0:22:39.076 number of new ideas is infinite has kind of fallen 0:22:39.076 --> 0:22:40.156 out of favor somehow. 0:22:40.876 --> 0:22:44.116 Yeah, it's it's just odd. It's I mean, people can 0:22:44.156 --> 0:22:47.316