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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Hello revisionist history fans, it's been way too long.

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Speaker 2: In case you're curious, we are hard at work cooking

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Speaker 2: up all sorts of mischief for you already. I've been

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Speaker 2: to Alabama twice. That's how deep we're going this year.

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Speaker 2: But while we wait for all those new episodes, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to share with you an interview I did with

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Speaker 2: my friend and colleague Rick Rubin. If you know your

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Speaker 2: Pushkin shows, you'll know that Rick is the driving force

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Speaker 2: behind our music podcast Broken Record, in addition, of course,

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Speaker 2: to being maybe the most important music producer of his generation.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's worked with Metallica, Adele, Johnny Cash, the

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Speaker 2: Beastie Boys, jay Z, the Chili Peppers, Neil Young, on

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Speaker 2: and on. I met Rick years ago, and I've been

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Speaker 2: out to Shangrilot many times, which is the famous recording

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Speaker 2: studio Rick runs up in Malibu. Rick and I once

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Speaker 2: interviewed Bruce Springsteen together, which is an experience I'll never forget.

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Speaker 2: If you meet Rick, you'll understand immediately what makes him

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Speaker 2: such a brilliant producer, because he's one of the most

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Speaker 2: open and generous listeners I've ever met. Anyway, over the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years, very quietly, Rick's been working on

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Speaker 2: a book about creativity called The Creative Act, A Way

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Speaker 2: of Being. I read it in one sitting. I loved it,

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Speaker 2: and I called up Rick and I asked him, can

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Speaker 2: we talk about it? And what follows is that interview

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Speaker 2: which I wanted to share with all of you. We

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Speaker 2: read it in the Broken Record feed for the music diehards,

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Speaker 2: but I thought it made sense to oneted again here

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Speaker 2: because although it's a book about creativity by a music producer,

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Speaker 2: and many of the examples Rick talks about are about music,

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Speaker 2: it's not a music book. It's this beautiful exploration about

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Speaker 2: how to open up your imagination that I believe has

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Speaker 2: useful insights for all of us. Anyway, here goes our conversation.

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Speaker 2: I hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: Rick Hey.

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Speaker 2: So I have a million questions, and I thought the

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Speaker 2: fun thing to do would be to go through and

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Speaker 2: I would just read you things I underlined, because there

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Speaker 2: are things that I would love for you to talk

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Speaker 2: or that we could talk about, but to you in particular.

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Speaker 2: But one of the fantastic things about this book is

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Speaker 2: that I'm almost rarely read a book where I felt

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Speaker 2: like I was being invited to contribute.

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Speaker 3: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: Like, every time you made a point, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: I have something to add about that or this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've never read a book like that where I'm like,

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Speaker 2: half the time I'm talking to myself as I'm reading it.

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Speaker 2: So that's what I thought. We would get into that

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Speaker 2: as well a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But that's great, that's great. I'm so happy. First of all,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy you like it, happy you read it, happy

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Speaker 1: you like it, and I'm happy that it had that

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Speaker 1: effect on you. And there was I will tell you

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Speaker 1: there was a version of the book, an unsuccessful version

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Speaker 1: of the book, maybe four years ago, that talked about

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same stuff that the book talks about.

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Speaker 1: The content was similar and the writing was beautiful, but

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't have elicited the reaction that you had, and

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Speaker 1: that's why it didn't come out then. And from the beginning,

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Speaker 1: the purpose of the book was always I want people

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Speaker 1: to make great things. I want people, I want as

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Speaker 1: much beautiful art in the world as possible. I'm a

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Speaker 1: fan of beautiful things and exciting things and new things

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Speaker 1: happening all the time. And the book was like a

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Speaker 1: call to arms to go out and make something beautiful

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Speaker 1: change the world. You know.

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Speaker 2: So I've known questions, but I wanted to start with

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Speaker 2: a very general one, which is, because you're in a

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Speaker 2: world of music, we're reading a lot of this through

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Speaker 2: the lens of music. We're assuming you're talking about musicians,

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Speaker 2: and you give examples of musicians from timesam From time

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Speaker 2: to time. You also talk about visual artists. You add

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Speaker 2: that into the mix. But I was curious about are

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Speaker 2: we really talking about all art here or is there

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Speaker 2: a difference in the way that music and visual art

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Speaker 2: are done that you're specifically speaking to.

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Speaker 1: I think it's how all creative choices are made. So

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Speaker 1: not only does it include the visual arts, it includes

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Speaker 1: starting a new business, a new recipe you're making as

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Speaker 1: a chef, architectural choices you might make, solving a problem

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Speaker 1: in life where you're not getting along with a family

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Speaker 1: member and you want to get closer to them and

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Speaker 1: have better communication. Yeah. Originally I thought of it as

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Speaker 1: more of a how to book about creativity. It became

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Speaker 1: a book about how to be, how to be in

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Speaker 1: the world to allow creativity to happen, and as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, how to be in the world that allows

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Speaker 1: creativity to happen, solves a lot of issues.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I did feel like about halfway through, I began

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Speaker 2: to forget you were in music, and I felt like

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Speaker 2: he was starting to talk more broadly about everyone. It's

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Speaker 2: hard to escape the assumption that this is going to

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Speaker 2: be a book about music at the very beginning. But

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Speaker 2: so there's a couple I'm want to start reading to

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Speaker 2: you some things and getting you to to talk about

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Speaker 2: them a little bit. One is without the spiritual components

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Speaker 2: from page from the chapter called the Unseen. Without the

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Speaker 2: spiritual component, the artist works with a crucial disadvantage. It's

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Speaker 2: a really really interesting idea, and one weirdly that I

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Speaker 2: had heard that phrase that way before. What is a

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Speaker 2: disadvantage here? And what are you meaning by the term

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Speaker 2: spiritual component?

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Speaker 1: The spiritual component is belief in something bigger, something different,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is. It could be believing in some universal power,

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Speaker 1: believing that if you walk under a ladder you'll have

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Speaker 1: bad luck. You know, it could it could be anything

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Speaker 1: that takes you out of the ordinary to allow you

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Speaker 1: to see a wilder potential is good. When you're making art.

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Speaker 1: The goal of making art is not to show you

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Speaker 1: just what everybody else sees. It's to see what's possible,

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Speaker 1: and what's possible is radical. It really is radical. It's

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Speaker 1: like we've built very a very small world for ourselves

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Speaker 1: with our reason. Have you ever had a mystical experience

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Speaker 1: in your life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you want to describe it at all?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I mean maybe my definition of mystical I

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Speaker 2: have had him.

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Speaker 1: I'm open, I'm wide open whatever however you describe it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've had moments probably around the death of

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Speaker 2: my father would be an example of the death of

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Speaker 2: my father, was a lot more than just about the

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Speaker 2: death of my father. I guess that's the best way.

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Speaker 2: You become aware in that moment that oh, he's part

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Speaker 2: of joining going somewhere whatever, much much, much, much, much

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Speaker 2: larger and older than we would have imagined. That's that

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Speaker 2: was probably the closest I came to that, that I

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Speaker 2: saw that in the gift of my grief, was that, yes,

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Speaker 2: was becoming aware of that.

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Speaker 1: Would you say that based on that you have been

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Speaker 1: able to live at times in a deeper way based

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Speaker 1: on that experience. Did it opened something into you to

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Speaker 1: allow you to see more than you saw before?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I have, absolutely I would. I would count that

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Speaker 2: experience as one of the most crucial of my life.

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Speaker 2: And in a million years, I would never have thought

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Speaker 2: that the death of someone I love more than anyone

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Speaker 2: else would open me up in that way.

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Speaker 1: That would be an example of touching something. I would

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Speaker 1: say spiritual, something unseen, something from beyond, something that wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have made sense to you before it happened. Yeah, if

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Speaker 1: someone would have described it to you, you might have thought,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really make sense to me, But then you

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Speaker 1: got to feel it, and then you understood. And belief

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Speaker 1: is that way. There's a part in the book that

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Speaker 1: talks about what you believe in doesn't have to be true,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't really matter, but belief has a power, and

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Speaker 1: belief allows you to go further than you thought you

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Speaker 1: can go. Yeah, and there are a lot of tools

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Speaker 1: in the book that talk about overcoming voices that tell

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Speaker 1: us we can't do things because we've learned we can't

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Speaker 1: do things. You know, we've learned what's possible and what's impossible.

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Speaker 1: And if we accept what's possible and what's impossible, we

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Speaker 1: can't go beyond. If the Wright brothers accepted it was

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Speaker 1: impossible for man to fly, we still wouldn't be flying.

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Speaker 1: All of the great revolutions that have happened have happened

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Speaker 1: because someone believed in something that everyone thought wasn't possible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this taps into a larger theme in your book,

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Speaker 2: which I thought was really powerful, which is time and

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Speaker 2: again you come back to the idea that the artists

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Speaker 2: one of the artist's jobs is our obligations is to

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Speaker 2: look outside of him or herself. I mean, you do

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Speaker 2: talk about how you need there's that chapter where you

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Speaker 2: talk about the importance of paying very close attention to

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Speaker 2: what's going on inside your own head and heart. Like

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Speaker 2: here's an example not long after that first quote, when

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Speaker 2: looking for a solution to a creative problem, pay close

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Speaker 2: attention to what's happening around you. And what I love

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Speaker 2: about that is like, it's not that you think back

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Speaker 2: over your history, remember some important thing you read five

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Speaker 2: years ago written by some genius. No, No, you're talking

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Speaker 2: about in the moment here and that look around and

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Speaker 2: you can find kind of solutions clues, what have you

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Speaker 2: just in the kind of most prosaic details of your

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Speaker 2: existence at that moment, like in the room where you.

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Speaker 1: Are, yes now I can't say it works one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent of the time. It's not saying that, it's saying

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Speaker 1: that if you live in a way where you're really

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Speaker 1: open and paying attention to everything around you, the answers

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Speaker 1: you're looking for are knocking on the door all the time.

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Speaker 1: They don't come when you're searching for them. They come

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Speaker 1: when you're open and allow them to come. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I talk about in the book is

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Speaker 1: if you have a problem them to solve, instead of

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Speaker 1: thinking about it, hold the question in your awareness and

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Speaker 1: go for a walk or swim or do something that

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Speaker 1: takes your mind off of what you're trying to solve

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Speaker 1: and engages you in something else. Yeah, and most often

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Speaker 1: when you're engaged in something else, the part of you

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Speaker 1: that's in the way of solving the problem loses its

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Speaker 1: control over you, and you through whatever it is. You

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Speaker 1: can find a way to go for a drive something

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Speaker 1: where you have to you have to pay attention enough.

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Speaker 1: If you're driving, you can sort of drive on autopilot

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Speaker 1: in you know, without really paying attention. But if you're

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Speaker 1: really not paying attention, you'll crash. You mean, you can

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Speaker 1: you can tune out that much. So there is some

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Speaker 1: part of you that's occupied when you're driving with the

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Speaker 1: work at hand.

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Speaker 2: The reason I thought that was interesting was I wondered,

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Speaker 2: I mean that one thing that struck me, And I

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Speaker 2: could be totally wrong, but my sense is that increasingly,

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Speaker 2: in a lot of creative fields, creativity is defined as

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Speaker 2: something that is internal and deliberate. You look within yourself

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Speaker 2: and your own experience and you mind them for and

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Speaker 2: you're talking about something that is in part external and unconscious.

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Speaker 2: And I have a good friend who's a screenwriter, and

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Speaker 2: I think by virtue of being my friend and watching,

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Speaker 2: I'm a reporter, a journalist, you know, I call people

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Speaker 2: up and interview them and record what they say. He's

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Speaker 2: changed the way he writes screenplays. Now he does as

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Speaker 2: much reporting as he does as much as someone who's

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Speaker 2: writing a nonfiction book. And he's doing it not because

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Speaker 2: he's just cutting and pasting what he hears in the world.

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Speaker 2: To do is but he's doing a version of what

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Speaker 2: you're talking about, which is he's opening himself up to

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Speaker 2: the if he wants to talk about, you know, scientists,

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Speaker 2: he goes and talks to lots and lots of scientists,

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Speaker 2: and it opens him up to the way they think

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Speaker 2: and feel, and that kind of approach to creativity strikes

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Speaker 2: me as being one that seems out of vogue in

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Speaker 2: a certain way. I mean, it's not what they're teaching

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Speaker 2: in writing schools.

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Speaker 1: No, it's not what they're teaching. And there was a line,

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Speaker 1: there's a line in the book and I only know

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Speaker 1: it because I was working on the audiobook yesterday and

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Speaker 1: I read it yesterday, and it's against funny, counterintuitive line

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Speaker 1: that self expression is not about you and it's just

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Speaker 1: such a and when I read it, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: stopped me in my tracks, even though it's an idea

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Speaker 1: from several years ago, but it hit me hard again,

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Speaker 1: you know, recognizing it. So everything we are comes from

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Speaker 1: outside of us. The data that we take in from

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Speaker 1: which we make, whatever it is that we make comes

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Speaker 1: from outside of us, all of it. None of it

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Speaker 1: starts with us. Everything starts outside of us. So we

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Speaker 1: have a storehouse of all of the stuff that we've

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Speaker 1: experienced over the course of our lives. And then we

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Speaker 1: can find connect between those things, and we can find

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Speaker 1: connections between those things from the past and these things

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Speaker 1: happening now, whatever it may be. And when you're looking

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Speaker 1: for it. It's surprising how often the answers are right there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is.

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Speaker 2: Read another one of my favorite lines. Distraction is not procrastination.

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Speaker 2: Procrastination can consistently undermines our ability to make things. Distraction

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Speaker 2: is a strategy in service of the work, which is

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Speaker 2: to your point. So a lot of what this exposure

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Speaker 2: to the world outside of us is about is a

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Speaker 2: kind of productive distraction, right, That's what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: With that, it's a combination. There's a productive distraction and

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Speaker 1: an inspiration. The connection with the outside world also can

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Speaker 1: be really inspiring. It can be inspiring if you pick

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Speaker 1: places that are inspiring. I try to pick places to

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Speaker 1: be where I find inspiration on a daily basis.

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Speaker 2: You have a little moment where you're talking about how

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Speaker 2: different all of us have different strategies, or that kind

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Speaker 2: of inspirational place, and you said Andy Warhol was said

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Speaker 2: to create with a television, radio, and record player all

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Speaker 2: on simultaneously. For eminem the noise of a single TV

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Speaker 2: set is his preferred backdrop. Marcel Bruce lined his walls

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Speaker 2: with soundless absorbing cork clothes, the drapes and warrior plugs.

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Speaker 2: And I was curious what's yours. Do you have a

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Speaker 2: kind of mode like that.

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Speaker 1: I would say I like to be in a quiet place,

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Speaker 1: big beautiful nature, less people. Yeah, i'd say natural beauty

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Speaker 1: and less people. It's funny.

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Speaker 2: I'm exactly the opposite.

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Speaker 3: I was right.

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Speaker 2: I had a very productive morning in a coffee shop.

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Speaker 2: It was crowded and I was seating it like literally

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Speaker 2: right up against this six foot four kid, I think

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Speaker 2: it was like twenty two years old, sitting next to

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Speaker 2: his parents, and the kid was super interesting, and he

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Speaker 2: was talking about the PLO in the nineteen seventies and

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Speaker 2: wow yair Arafat and there was something about like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I can't put my finger on what. That

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Speaker 2: kind of triggered. After a while, I kind of he

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Speaker 2: became my background noise. But it was such a different

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Speaker 2: voice that I was fixing a chapter of something I

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Speaker 2: was working on, and I just saw suddenly sound a solution,

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Speaker 2: And I think it was what we were talking about.

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Speaker 2: It was some combination of there's something about that being

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Speaker 2: surrounded by unusual voices that really wakes me up to

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Speaker 2: the range of solutions. Right, I'm a reminder. Oh, there's

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Speaker 2: like there's this kid who's thinking about something I don't

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Speaker 2: think about in a context I'm not in. Who's super interesting, Like, wow,

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Speaker 2: so you know there's a solution out there.

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Speaker 4: It was that.

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Speaker 2: It was funny because I had just read your chapter

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Speaker 2: which talks about that, and I was in that situation.

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Speaker 1: Is is that a place that you go to every day?

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Speaker 2: Many days? I like, I need I need so, I

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Speaker 2: need voices, I need noise and voices and activity in

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Speaker 2: order to be able to create. During the pandemic, I

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Speaker 2: had one Stirgle Simpson album that I played over and

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Speaker 2: over and over again.

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Speaker 3: He was my voice?

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Speaker 2: Was it meta? Modern?

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Speaker 3: Meta?

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Speaker 2: What is that album? Fantastic album?

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Speaker 4: Whatever?

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Speaker 2: He's great. I don't know if he's out there. He

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Speaker 2: helped me through is that many many lean times during

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Speaker 2: the pandemic. But that idea, I almost feel like you're

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Speaker 2: describing the things you have learned by working with elite

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Speaker 2: practitioners of the art of creativity. But I was struck

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Speaker 2: by the gap between what you've learned from the top

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Speaker 2: performers and what we're teaching to people at the outset,

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Speaker 2: and that it concerned me. I almost feel like there's

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Speaker 2: a gap between what we're telling people and what the

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Speaker 2: truly creative.

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Speaker 1: Are doing Yes, yes, that's true.

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Speaker 2: On the same point on this gap. There's a moment

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about it's actually my favorite part of

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Speaker 2: the book, when you're talking about strategies for unblocking yourself

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Speaker 2: into all the different ways that you think about that

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Speaker 2: or approach that. When you're working with people and one

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Speaker 2: of them was right, writ in the voice of someone else,

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Speaker 2: that's right, that's what we said, and Rick, once again,

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Speaker 2: in the world we live in, that is an incendiary thought.

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Speaker 2: That's called appropriation. And you have this beautiful I want

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Speaker 2: to quote in a similar vein you say there are

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Speaker 2: countless examples of imitation turning into legitimate innovation. Having a

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Speaker 2: romanticized vision of an artist, genre, or tradition may allow

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Speaker 2: you to create something new because you see it from

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Speaker 2: a different perspective than those closer to it. So not

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Speaker 2: only are you saying that it can be really useful

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Speaker 2: to inhabit someone else's voice or tradition, you're also saying

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Speaker 2: that that can spark a whole new, more beautiful, greater

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Speaker 2: kind of innovation because you're approaching it from your own perspective.

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Speaker 2: You talk about Sergio Leoni spaghetti westerns, being a good

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Speaker 2: example of that that they transform understanding of what a

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Speaker 2: what a question is. I thought a lot about the

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Speaker 2: audiobook we did with Paul Simon when he's talking about Graceland,

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Speaker 2: which is that right, yes?

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Speaker 1: Or or talking heads you know, remain in light or

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Speaker 1: fear of music. Those were inspired by African rhythms. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a great tradition in doing this. I mean pretty

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Speaker 1: much the best of everything was based on something else always,

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Speaker 1: and then it's the it's through the new interpretations. Like

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Speaker 1: the Beatles were doing American motown music, but because they

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Speaker 1: were English and because of the distance, they weren't trying

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Speaker 1: to do it different. They did it different because they

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Speaker 1: were different, and that was the beauty of it. And

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Speaker 1: that's how the Beatles became the Beatles. You know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they became the Beatles because they are the Beatles. But

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Speaker 1: the music they were doing was they were trying to

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Speaker 1: do motown.

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Speaker 2: Or as you point out, the Ramones were trying to

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Speaker 2: be the Bay City Rollers, yes.

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Speaker 3: Which is a true.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Johnny Ramone told me that himself, so I know that

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Speaker 1: to be true.

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Speaker 2: It is so for those of you who don't know

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Speaker 2: the basy De Rollers, they were just about the dumbest

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Speaker 2: bubble bubble gum band of the they were't like the

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Speaker 2: boy band of the early seventies, and the Ramones think that.

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Speaker 1: Well, they had that song s A t U r

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Speaker 1: d A y s A t u y. And then

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Speaker 1: if you listen to the Ramones, they have those type

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Speaker 1: of gabba gabba we accept, you know, similar types of chance.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, Yeah, they take it and they twist

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Speaker 2: it in this brilliant, beautiful, revolutionary way. But so we

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Speaker 2: walk about it was sort of harp on this, but

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Speaker 2: how do we get away from that notion? So it

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Speaker 2: is legitimately the case. And I know this because I

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Speaker 2: are examples of people who I know who are legitimately

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Speaker 2: terrified of even so much as dipping their toe in

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Speaker 2: another traditionary voice for fear of being criticized. It's almost

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Speaker 2: like we're terrified of the sources of creativity. We're terrified

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Speaker 2: to admit to ourselves what we're doing in the name

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Speaker 2: of creativity.

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Speaker 1: The reason someone imitates someone else is because they love

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Speaker 1: someone else. That's why it's only flattery when someone is

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Speaker 1: inspired by someone else. If you if you decided to

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Speaker 1: write because someone else wrote and you like their writing,

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Speaker 1: and you decide to become a writer that's not against them,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't take anything away from them. That's a tribute

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Speaker 1: to them. Yeah, and all of the music that gets

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Speaker 1: made based on loving someone else's music is a tribute

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Speaker 1: to them, whether it be people of the same color

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Speaker 1: or different color. It doesn't matter that it has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with that. That's not what it's about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a current misread of the situation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know what it is. And it goes to

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Speaker 2: something else. You talk a little bit. You talk about

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Speaker 2: the abundance mindset. In getting to that part of the book.

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Speaker 2: You talk about the importance of understanding that number of ideas,

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Speaker 2: essentially the number of ideas out there is infinite, not finite. Yes,

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Speaker 2: when you understand it's infinite, then you're not scared of

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Speaker 2: imitating someone because you're like, there's a million things out there.

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Speaker 2: We don't we don't have to hold tightly to what

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Speaker 2: we've done and be react in a hostile manner if

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Speaker 2: someone tries to imitate us because there's a million efficiency,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's fine. I think the idea that the

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Speaker 2: number of new ideas is infinite has kind of fallen

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Speaker 2: out of favor somehow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's just odd. It's I mean, people can

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Speaker 1: be wrong and it's okay, you know, like that's fine.

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Speaker 1: In some ways, the fact that it's falling out of

403
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Speaker 1: favor means the people who embrace the tried and true

404
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Speaker 1: methods that have worked will find greater success and they'll

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Speaker 1: be less stuff in between.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is your understanding of this notion of abundance? Is

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Speaker 2: it a product of having worked for I don't know

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Speaker 2: how many years you've been in the industry, many decades.

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Speaker 2: Did you feel the same way when you were twenty one?

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Speaker 2: In other words, is it natural for the very for

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Speaker 2: the very young to be much more jealous, much more

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Speaker 2: jealousy guard their ideas because they haven't had years and

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Speaker 2: years of experience in seeing the kind of waterfall of

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Speaker 2: ideas that's out there. Is that fair?

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Speaker 1: No, it's fair. I've always felt this way because I

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Speaker 1: see it, you know, I see all of the ideas

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Speaker 1: I see. I want to learn everything. There's no time.

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Speaker 1: There's no time to learn all the things I want

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Speaker 1: to learn. I'm endlessly curious, and I'm always looking I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking back to It's really more about what we were

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Speaker 1: just talking about But the reason I learned about reggae

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Speaker 1: music was because of the Clash. If it weren't for

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Speaker 1: the Clash, I don't know if I would have ever

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Speaker 1: come in contact with reggae music. So is it bad

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Speaker 1: that the Clash did reggae music? Yeah, because they turned

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Speaker 1: on a whole generation of people who otherwise may not

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Speaker 1: have ever heard about it. Do you know? It's like,

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Speaker 1: it's a crazy idea to think that, not to be

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Speaker 1: inspired by the things that are inspiring us and to

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Speaker 1: show it and to own it and to fly the

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Speaker 1: flag of these great trends or genres is nothing more beautiful. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I'm gonna pause for a quick break, and then we'll

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Speaker 4: be back with more from Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 4: We're back with more from Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell.

435
00:24:41,436 --> 00:24:44,396
Speaker 2: I remember pretty early in my writing career when I

436
00:24:44,476 --> 00:24:47,916
Speaker 2: was unhappy. I thought I was limited as a writer.

437
00:24:47,996 --> 00:24:50,956
Speaker 2: And I remember sitting down with I've forgotten which book

438
00:24:50,996 --> 00:24:54,076
Speaker 2: it was, one of Michael Lewis's books and one of

439
00:24:54,156 --> 00:25:00,316
Speaker 2: Janet Malcolm's books, two narrative nonfiction writers who are extraordinarily

440
00:25:00,356 --> 00:25:02,836
Speaker 2: good at the one thing I thought I was weak at,

441
00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:07,116
Speaker 2: which is character literally sitting down and studying them like

442
00:25:07,196 --> 00:25:10,356
Speaker 2: they were with a talmud, Like, what's he doing here?

443
00:25:10,436 --> 00:25:13,236
Speaker 2: How much time does he spend literally measuring how much

444
00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:17,836
Speaker 2: time does he spend describing someone? I was getting itchy feet.

445
00:25:17,916 --> 00:25:20,196
Speaker 2: I would I did introduce a character and I think, oh,

446
00:25:20,196 --> 00:25:21,636
Speaker 2: you must be bored of the character list.

447
00:25:21,596 --> 00:25:22,156
Speaker 3: And then I would.

448
00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:24,156
Speaker 2: Then it would Michael Lewis and is like, he has

449
00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:26,076
Speaker 2: the same character the whole book and we're not bored

450
00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:27,036
Speaker 2: of him. How does he do that?

451
00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:27,356
Speaker 4: Right?

452
00:25:27,596 --> 00:25:30,436
Speaker 2: Or Jed and Malcolm would like peel one layer after

453
00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:32,636
Speaker 2: another off the onion. You'd be like, there can't be

454
00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:35,316
Speaker 2: any onion left. There was always onion left. I was like,

455
00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:38,556
Speaker 2: how does she do that? To your point about you

456
00:25:38,636 --> 00:25:41,236
Speaker 2: got that lovely thing about the back and forth between

457
00:25:41,276 --> 00:25:45,676
Speaker 2: the Beatles and the Beach Boys. Brian Wilson sees White

458
00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:48,716
Speaker 2: Album and says, is it White album that inspired always?

459
00:25:48,796 --> 00:25:51,996
Speaker 1: It starts with it starts with rubber Soul. It starts

460
00:25:51,996 --> 00:25:55,596
Speaker 1: with rubber soul. Yeah, And then based on Brian Wilson

461
00:25:55,636 --> 00:25:59,596
Speaker 1: hearing Rubber Soul, he makes pet sounds based on the

462
00:25:59,596 --> 00:26:05,916
Speaker 1: song God only Knows. Paul has the idea for Sergeant pepper. Yeah,

463
00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:08,916
Speaker 1: And the point that I make there is not they

464
00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:12,996
Speaker 1: weren't doing that at a competition. It was out of

465
00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:19,116
Speaker 1: love and inspiration, and it was an upward spiral between

466
00:26:19,156 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 1: them of inspire a reaction, inspire a reaction, inspire, lifting

467
00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:26,636
Speaker 1: the level, lifting the level. It was they made each

468
00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:29,916
Speaker 1: other better. They weren't trying to beat each other. It

469
00:26:30,036 --> 00:26:31,836
Speaker 1: was different than that they loved each other.

470
00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:34,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, explain to me. It's sort of obvious, but I'd

471
00:26:34,956 --> 00:26:37,356
Speaker 2: love for you to talk about it. Why is it

472
00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 2: important that it comes out of love and not competition.

473
00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:44,116
Speaker 2: What is it about a competitive drive that is more

474
00:26:44,156 --> 00:26:46,036
Speaker 2: limiting than a drive of love.

475
00:26:46,796 --> 00:26:48,996
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, we're talking about. Majority of what

476
00:26:48,996 --> 00:26:52,116
Speaker 1: we're talking about is art, and the way that I

477
00:26:52,156 --> 00:26:55,956
Speaker 1: see art is it really is about our own self expression.

478
00:26:56,476 --> 00:26:59,676
Speaker 1: So I'll give you an example. I just wrote a book.

479
00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:03,236
Speaker 1: You write a lot of books. The idea of Rick's

480
00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:07,836
Speaker 1: book competing with Malcolm's book is an insane idea. You

481
00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:12,196
Speaker 1: write a Malcolm book, I write a Rick book. No

482
00:27:12,236 --> 00:27:14,996
Speaker 1: one but Malcolm can write a Malcolm book. No one

483
00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:18,916
Speaker 1: but Rick can write a Rick book. They're mutually exclusive things.

484
00:27:20,236 --> 00:27:24,516
Speaker 1: Everything is like that. So if you're focused on beating

485
00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:28,476
Speaker 1: someone else. It makes me think you're not actually playing

486
00:27:28,516 --> 00:27:30,756
Speaker 1: the same game that I'm playing. The game that I'm

487
00:27:30,796 --> 00:27:33,036
Speaker 1: playing is I want to make the best thing that

488
00:27:33,076 --> 00:27:37,476
Speaker 1: I can make for me, that's all, and if someone

489
00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:40,076
Speaker 1: else likes it, it's great. There's a chapter in the

490
00:27:40,116 --> 00:27:43,036
Speaker 1: book about success, which is success is when you feel

491
00:27:43,036 --> 00:27:45,796
Speaker 1: good enough about it a piece of work you've made

492
00:27:46,636 --> 00:27:49,116
Speaker 1: to share it in the world. That's the moment of success.

493
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,956
Speaker 1: Whatever happens after that's completely out of our control. But

494
00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:54,436
Speaker 1: the moment that you sign off, it's like you're okay,

495
00:27:54,516 --> 00:27:57,356
Speaker 1: here we go, and then move on to your next project.

496
00:27:57,556 --> 00:28:02,756
Speaker 1: That's where success lies. So to work on a vibration

497
00:28:03,116 --> 00:28:07,076
Speaker 1: of competition. It's one thing. If it's about running a race,

498
00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:10,996
Speaker 1: this is not running a race. This really is always

499
00:28:11,036 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 1: apples and oranges.

500
00:28:12,436 --> 00:28:16,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, although you know it's funny, I think you're selling

501
00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:19,076
Speaker 2: your idea a little short. I was thinking about this

502
00:28:19,116 --> 00:28:21,956
Speaker 2: when I read that part. I'm a big fan of cars,

503
00:28:22,756 --> 00:28:27,556
Speaker 2: and there's a very particular moment in the early aughts

504
00:28:28,276 --> 00:28:33,596
Speaker 2: when car design goes through a stage that I think

505
00:28:33,676 --> 00:28:36,756
Speaker 2: everyone in the who loves cars thinks was one of

506
00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:40,076
Speaker 2: a kind of extraordinary moment of it was a kind

507
00:28:40,076 --> 00:28:42,596
Speaker 2: of when cars started to look very kind of bowhusy.

508
00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:44,436
Speaker 2: I don't know if you know cars, but there was

509
00:28:44,476 --> 00:28:46,956
Speaker 2: a very beautiful E Class that Mercedes put out in

510
00:28:46,956 --> 00:28:50,676
Speaker 2: the early aughts, which is veryy, clean lines, round headlights.

511
00:28:51,036 --> 00:28:54,916
Speaker 2: At the same time, Audi put out the first iteration

512
00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 2: of Estyle. They're still in but it was very clean

513
00:28:56,836 --> 00:29:00,076
Speaker 2: and very They all were doing this a very similar aesthetic,

514
00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:02,276
Speaker 2: which was a rejection of a lot of the kind

515
00:29:02,316 --> 00:29:05,156
Speaker 2: of clutter and complication that had gone on in the

516
00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:07,796
Speaker 2: in the previous generation of car design. And you could

517
00:29:07,836 --> 00:29:11,156
Speaker 2: see it across all the kind of elite car makers.

518
00:29:11,596 --> 00:29:13,956
Speaker 2: And you know, normally you would say, these are guys

519
00:29:13,956 --> 00:29:16,236
Speaker 2: who really are in competition with each other. They are

520
00:29:16,276 --> 00:29:19,476
Speaker 2: battling over a finite marketplace. They're making the same thing

521
00:29:19,676 --> 00:29:22,996
Speaker 2: cars that people drive. But they weren't all pursuing this

522
00:29:23,556 --> 00:29:27,116
Speaker 2: Bauhaus design strategy. It was out of love.

523
00:29:27,556 --> 00:29:28,156
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

524
00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:32,236
Speaker 2: The guy at Audi saw the E Class and it's like,

525
00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:34,956
Speaker 2: oh my god, that's a gorgeous car. I want to

526
00:29:34,956 --> 00:29:36,316
Speaker 2: do my version of it. I mean it was no,

527
00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 2: it wasn't like let's take market share from you know,

528
00:29:40,636 --> 00:29:42,436
Speaker 2: at that level. I mean, maybe it was in the

529
00:29:42,436 --> 00:29:45,636
Speaker 2: marketing group, but at the level of the designer it

530
00:29:45,756 --> 00:29:49,916
Speaker 2: was clearly they all fell in love, yes, with this

531
00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:54,236
Speaker 2: particular So I think it goes beyond what we think

532
00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:57,436
Speaker 2: of as the as the art narrowly as the arts.

533
00:29:57,476 --> 00:30:01,396
Speaker 2: I think you see it everywhere that fundamentally, in a

534
00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:05,356
Speaker 2: million different ways. Even people who are locked in competition

535
00:30:05,476 --> 00:30:08,716
Speaker 2: with each other sometimes push that aside and do things

536
00:30:08,756 --> 00:30:11,316
Speaker 2: out of a genuine affection for what they were just

537
00:30:11,316 --> 00:30:13,276
Speaker 2: they're just blown away by something they see and know, like,

538
00:30:13,276 --> 00:30:13,796
Speaker 2: oh my god.

539
00:30:14,276 --> 00:30:19,956
Speaker 1: Here's an even more metaphysical version of that, where the

540
00:30:20,076 --> 00:30:25,036
Speaker 1: same thing happens, but it's not a reaction. So in

541
00:30:25,116 --> 00:30:28,876
Speaker 1: the example you gave, Mercedes came out with a beautiful

542
00:30:28,916 --> 00:30:34,036
Speaker 1: new design, and Audi, inspired by that design, made something new.

543
00:30:35,236 --> 00:30:42,916
Speaker 1: They're also throughout history examples of two or three similar

544
00:30:44,396 --> 00:30:49,916
Speaker 1: novel approaches entering at the same time, not based on

545
00:30:50,076 --> 00:30:56,316
Speaker 1: seeing each other, yeah, just based on it's time for this. Yeah.

546
00:30:56,636 --> 00:31:00,716
Speaker 1: And maybe it's possible that the thing that inspired Mercedes

547
00:31:00,756 --> 00:31:03,276
Speaker 1: to want to do it is the thing that inspired

548
00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:06,036
Speaker 1: Audi to want to do it. But that's different than

549
00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:10,316
Speaker 1: Audi wanting to copy what Mercedes did, And that's a

550
00:31:10,436 --> 00:31:13,636
Speaker 1: fascinating thing when there are these movements of art where

551
00:31:14,316 --> 00:31:16,396
Speaker 1: it just springs up all over the planet at the

552
00:31:16,396 --> 00:31:18,476
Speaker 1: same time, not because they saw it and wanted to

553
00:31:18,476 --> 00:31:21,116
Speaker 1: do it, but because now is the time for this

554
00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:22,556
Speaker 1: new thing, whatever it is.

555
00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:26,756
Speaker 2: But at its root, it's the same thing, because they're

556
00:31:26,756 --> 00:31:30,716
Speaker 2: falling in love with the same idea in the world simultaneously.

557
00:31:31,196 --> 00:31:33,116
Speaker 2: You can d of fall in love with what Joe

558
00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:36,316
Speaker 2: across the pond is doing, or me and Joe can

559
00:31:36,356 --> 00:31:38,796
Speaker 2: fall in love with something you know in the world

560
00:31:38,836 --> 00:31:42,636
Speaker 2: of ideas that's really beautiful and novel. But I think

561
00:31:42,676 --> 00:31:45,036
Speaker 2: the engine is the same, which is it's love.

562
00:31:45,636 --> 00:31:49,756
Speaker 1: Yes, it seems more magical when there isn't when you

563
00:31:49,796 --> 00:31:53,116
Speaker 1: don't see one like it first. There's something about it

564
00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,636
Speaker 1: when I don't know if it's ever happened to you,

565
00:31:55,876 --> 00:31:57,876
Speaker 1: it has happened to me where I'll have an idea

566
00:31:57,916 --> 00:32:00,796
Speaker 1: for something and I don't act on that right away,

567
00:32:01,276 --> 00:32:04,076
Speaker 1: and then within six months or a year someone else

568
00:32:04,116 --> 00:32:07,556
Speaker 1: does it. They didn't steal my idea. It was time

569
00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:08,396
Speaker 1: for that to happen.

570
00:32:09,196 --> 00:32:11,156
Speaker 2: Let's keep going to so much wonderful stuff here. I

571
00:32:11,796 --> 00:32:14,396
Speaker 2: want to give listeners more of a taste of it.

572
00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:16,956
Speaker 2: Was several moments when I was out of surprise and

573
00:32:16,996 --> 00:32:22,036
Speaker 2: in one case really genuinely wanted more of a explanation,

574
00:32:22,676 --> 00:32:26,316
Speaker 2: and that was when the work has five mistakes, it's

575
00:32:26,316 --> 00:32:29,556
Speaker 2: not yet completed. When it has eight mistakes, it might

576
00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:31,316
Speaker 2: be yes, Rick, what does that mean?

577
00:32:32,356 --> 00:32:35,756
Speaker 1: We get hung up on the idea of perfection, and

578
00:32:35,996 --> 00:32:39,516
Speaker 1: we think perfection is what we're looking for, when really

579
00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:44,116
Speaker 1: what we're looking for is something with emotion in it,

580
00:32:44,196 --> 00:32:48,876
Speaker 1: something with humanity in it, and humanity has flaws. So

581
00:32:49,996 --> 00:32:53,876
Speaker 1: we can use the example of the leaning Tower of Pisa.

582
00:32:53,956 --> 00:32:55,716
Speaker 1: At the time that it was made, it was a mistake,

583
00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:58,676
Speaker 1: and now it's one of the most visited buildings in

584
00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:02,436
Speaker 1: the world, and it's visited purely because of the mistake.

585
00:33:02,996 --> 00:33:07,876
Speaker 1: You know, we collect old Persian rugs that were handmade

586
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:10,476
Speaker 1: and that had been lived in whereas you can buy

587
00:33:10,516 --> 00:33:14,716
Speaker 1: a new machine made rug. Now that's more perfect than that,

588
00:33:15,236 --> 00:33:19,276
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have the same humanity in it. And

589
00:33:19,876 --> 00:33:21,956
Speaker 1: the reason I use the example of five and eight

590
00:33:21,996 --> 00:33:27,916
Speaker 1: are their random choices. Those are not specific. Those are

591
00:33:27,916 --> 00:33:29,716
Speaker 1: not if you have five, you got to get to

592
00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:32,116
Speaker 1: eight for it to work. But it's a way of

593
00:33:32,156 --> 00:33:36,996
Speaker 1: thinking where we're not looking to make it perfect. We're

594
00:33:36,996 --> 00:33:40,916
Speaker 1: looking for the soulful version that could either be going

595
00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:45,676
Speaker 1: further towards perfection or backwards away from it, and it

596
00:33:45,756 --> 00:33:48,236
Speaker 1: might just as well be backwards away from it for

597
00:33:48,276 --> 00:33:48,916
Speaker 1: it to feel good.

598
00:33:48,956 --> 00:33:52,196
Speaker 2: When we're making art, can you think about a project

599
00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:56,036
Speaker 2: you've worked on that you think is beautiful and authentic

600
00:33:56,876 --> 00:34:00,316
Speaker 2: in precisely this imperfect way, that has mistakes that you

601
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:02,036
Speaker 2: think it benefited from.

602
00:34:02,636 --> 00:34:05,636
Speaker 1: I can give you an example close to both of

603
00:34:05,716 --> 00:34:09,676
Speaker 1: our hearts, which is interesting. When we had the Broken

604
00:34:09,796 --> 00:34:15,596
Speaker 1: Record logo designed, it was originally done. It was designed

605
00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:18,956
Speaker 1: on a computer, and it was a very formal design,

606
00:34:19,036 --> 00:34:23,196
Speaker 1: graphic design, and a friend of mine suggested, you don't

607
00:34:23,236 --> 00:34:26,516
Speaker 1: have tried doing that by hand? Yeah, And then we

608
00:34:26,556 --> 00:34:28,716
Speaker 1: suggested to the design and try it by hand. And

609
00:34:28,756 --> 00:34:30,356
Speaker 1: the one that we ended up picking was the one

610
00:34:30,436 --> 00:34:34,196
Speaker 1: done by hand. It was less perfect, yeah, than the

611
00:34:34,276 --> 00:34:38,076
Speaker 1: original version, but it had more personality. Yeah.

612
00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:41,556
Speaker 2: It's very clarifying because I think it's very easy to

613
00:34:41,596 --> 00:34:45,436
Speaker 2: lose sight of what the audience for a work of

614
00:34:45,556 --> 00:34:49,076
Speaker 2: art wants. They want the creator, they want it. It's

615
00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:51,876
Speaker 2: a way of looking into the mind or heart of

616
00:34:51,876 --> 00:34:54,996
Speaker 2: the creator. They want, don't want some abstract thing that

617
00:34:55,756 --> 00:34:59,876
Speaker 2: fits every criteria of perfection, right we're looking for, you know,

618
00:34:59,996 --> 00:35:03,716
Speaker 2: to give the example back of when I was went

619
00:35:03,756 --> 00:35:06,156
Speaker 2: through my period where I was obsessively reading Michael Lewis

620
00:35:06,476 --> 00:35:09,356
Speaker 2: and Janet Malcolm. Jenna Malcolm is a good eample.

621
00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:09,876
Speaker 1: This or both.

622
00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:14,636
Speaker 2: When you read them, you feel like you know the

623
00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 2: two of those writers. When you read their writing, at

624
00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:19,116
Speaker 2: the end of a Michael Lewis book, you feel like

625
00:35:19,156 --> 00:35:21,756
Speaker 2: you've been hanging out with him and have a window

626
00:35:21,756 --> 00:35:25,596
Speaker 2: into his world. Jenna Malcolm's books are weird and quirky

627
00:35:25,636 --> 00:35:29,476
Speaker 2: and sometimes disturbing, but you love that because you're like, oh,

628
00:35:29,516 --> 00:35:32,756
Speaker 2: she's such a kind of fascinating character. And my worry

629
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:37,116
Speaker 2: when I was reading them was that people weren't having that.

630
00:35:37,116 --> 00:35:39,916
Speaker 2: That was not the experience my readers were having. That

631
00:35:39,956 --> 00:35:44,076
Speaker 2: they were getting something that was too abstract. They were

632
00:35:44,076 --> 00:35:48,196
Speaker 2: getting information, but not that kind of they were really

633
00:35:48,236 --> 00:35:51,436
Speaker 2: getting me. You know, it took a long time. We're

634
00:35:51,436 --> 00:35:54,756
Speaker 2: talking about. That thing I've describing was twenty years into

635
00:35:54,756 --> 00:35:55,716
Speaker 2: my writing career.

636
00:35:56,356 --> 00:36:01,236
Speaker 1: And what you're talking about is really moving away from

637
00:36:01,316 --> 00:36:06,476
Speaker 1: classical journalism. Yeah, because my understanding of journalism is the

638
00:36:06,516 --> 00:36:10,036
Speaker 1: writer is invisible it's only the story, and it's just

639
00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:13,076
Speaker 1: you know, just facts, that's all it is. Yeah. So,

640
00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:18,716
Speaker 1: in a way, this would be a bastardization of journalism.

641
00:36:19,356 --> 00:36:22,316
Speaker 1: But that's why it's engaging, and that's why it's interesting,

642
00:36:22,436 --> 00:36:27,556
Speaker 1: and that's why it's popular. It's not regular journalism. It's

643
00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:32,516
Speaker 1: journalism through your filter, the personal filter. There's a documentarian

644
00:36:32,596 --> 00:36:36,716
Speaker 1: named Nick Broomfield who I love, who makes these crazy movies.

645
00:36:37,316 --> 00:36:41,436
Speaker 1: He tends to pick outrageous characters to focus on, but

646
00:36:41,596 --> 00:36:45,396
Speaker 1: he always ends up part of the movie. And usually

647
00:36:45,476 --> 00:36:49,356
Speaker 1: when documentarians make a movie, you just see the subject,

648
00:36:49,356 --> 00:36:52,516
Speaker 1: but he ensconces himself into the finds a way to

649
00:36:52,556 --> 00:36:56,756
Speaker 1: insinuate himself into the story. And it's wild and bizarre,

650
00:36:56,956 --> 00:37:00,316
Speaker 1: and it's unusual for the director of a documentary to

651
00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:03,476
Speaker 1: become a main character in every one of the documentaries

652
00:37:03,476 --> 00:37:07,636
Speaker 1: he makes about different people. Fascinating. Yeah, so I love it.

653
00:37:07,956 --> 00:37:08,276
Speaker 3: Yeah.

654
00:37:08,636 --> 00:37:10,756
Speaker 2: Wait, couple of other things I wanted. I want to

655
00:37:10,756 --> 00:37:13,876
Speaker 2: make sure we you you had a little section that

656
00:37:13,956 --> 00:37:18,196
Speaker 2: I loved. When you're talking about Alpha Go, the AI

657
00:37:18,956 --> 00:37:22,676
Speaker 2: software system that was designed to master the game of

658
00:37:22,676 --> 00:37:27,116
Speaker 2: the Japanese game of Go, and how there's this famous

659
00:37:27,116 --> 00:37:30,796
Speaker 2: showdown between the computer and a Go grand master, and

660
00:37:30,836 --> 00:37:34,396
Speaker 2: the computer wins by making a move that had never

661
00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:36,996
Speaker 2: occurred to any Go player. You know, they had you say,

662
00:37:36,996 --> 00:37:39,556
Speaker 2: you say it was most Go players would have considered

663
00:37:39,636 --> 00:37:41,996
Speaker 2: A or B choice, and the computer went to C

664
00:37:42,436 --> 00:37:45,916
Speaker 2: and it blew everyone's mind. And you said, when you

665
00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:47,996
Speaker 2: read about that that you cried.

666
00:37:48,596 --> 00:37:51,116
Speaker 1: I did, and it was it wasn't. I didn't read

667
00:37:51,156 --> 00:37:53,956
Speaker 1: about it. I watched the documentary, But you watched the documentary. Yeah,

668
00:37:53,956 --> 00:37:56,556
Speaker 1: I was watching a documentary about it and it made

669
00:37:56,596 --> 00:38:00,556
Speaker 1: me cry. And when I cried, I didn't understand it

670
00:38:01,076 --> 00:38:04,636
Speaker 1: at first. It took it took a while. I thought

671
00:38:04,636 --> 00:38:08,796
Speaker 1: about it more. My reaction forced me to think about

672
00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:11,676
Speaker 1: it more. It's like, why am I crying? I'm not investing.

673
00:38:11,716 --> 00:38:14,516
Speaker 1: I don't play Go, I'm not invested in this story

674
00:38:14,556 --> 00:38:21,636
Speaker 1: at all. Yet I'm crying. And originally my first thought was,

675
00:38:22,516 --> 00:38:27,196
Speaker 1: am I crying because machines are beating humans? No, that's

676
00:38:27,236 --> 00:38:32,396
Speaker 1: not what it is. I'm crying because the way that

677
00:38:32,436 --> 00:38:37,596
Speaker 1: the computer won wasn't by knowing more than the grand master.

678
00:38:38,436 --> 00:38:42,036
Speaker 1: The computer one because it knew less than the grand master.

679
00:38:42,636 --> 00:38:46,196
Speaker 1: And that's what made me cry. It's that the computer

680
00:38:46,396 --> 00:38:53,036
Speaker 1: didn't have all of the baggage and cultural dogma of

681
00:38:53,076 --> 00:38:57,236
Speaker 1: how you're supposed to play Go. It only knew these

682
00:38:57,276 --> 00:38:58,836
Speaker 1: are the rules of the game. I'm playing the rules

683
00:38:58,876 --> 00:39:02,116
Speaker 1: of the game. And it was fascinating to me because

684
00:39:02,116 --> 00:39:06,156
Speaker 1: it made me realize, if we can let go of

685
00:39:06,276 --> 00:39:11,236
Speaker 1: the beliefs of what we're how we're supposed to do things,

686
00:39:11,796 --> 00:39:15,316
Speaker 1: anything maybe possible. It's the tip of the iceberg for

687
00:39:15,356 --> 00:39:19,556
Speaker 1: the game Go, for sure, but maybe it's the tip

688
00:39:19,556 --> 00:39:22,436
Speaker 1: of the iceberg for everything. And if we can get

689
00:39:22,476 --> 00:39:27,476
Speaker 1: back to that beginner's mind of not knowing, of accepting

690
00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:31,436
Speaker 1: that we don't know, we can break through in ways

691
00:39:31,516 --> 00:39:35,116
Speaker 1: never understood before. Yeah, never thought possible before.

692
00:39:35,436 --> 00:39:39,516
Speaker 2: It's funny because I didn't see this documentary, and when

693
00:39:39,516 --> 00:39:42,396
Speaker 2: I read about your description of how much you were

694
00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:46,236
Speaker 2: moved by that moment, I was also moved, but not

695
00:39:46,356 --> 00:39:50,996
Speaker 2: for the reasons you were. I was moved because what

696
00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:54,236
Speaker 2: that told me was that when human beings play Go,

697
00:39:55,276 --> 00:39:59,396
Speaker 2: they're not playing Go. In other words, the computer saw

698
00:39:59,476 --> 00:40:04,196
Speaker 2: Go in its entirety, in a technical sense, saw every

699
00:40:04,276 --> 00:40:06,876
Speaker 2: conceivable move you could make, made one that would never

700
00:40:06,916 --> 00:40:09,876
Speaker 2: have occurred to us. When human beings played We're playing

701
00:40:09,876 --> 00:40:15,916
Speaker 2: this very small parochial version, governed not just by the

702
00:40:15,996 --> 00:40:25,756
Speaker 2: rules and potentials of the board, but by our own assumptions, habits, practices, culturals.

703
00:40:26,076 --> 00:40:29,476
Speaker 2: And I actually kind of love that about us, in

704
00:40:29,596 --> 00:40:33,916
Speaker 2: other words, that we've colonized and humanized and brought all

705
00:40:33,956 --> 00:40:39,716
Speaker 2: of our kind of heartrending limitations even to something like

706
00:40:39,716 --> 00:40:44,636
Speaker 2: a board game. That's very moving to me. That was like,

707
00:40:45,196 --> 00:40:48,556
Speaker 2: the computer has the chile impersonal version of Go, and

708
00:40:48,596 --> 00:40:51,596
Speaker 2: this reminds us we're not playing the chile impersonal version.

709
00:40:51,916 --> 00:40:56,556
Speaker 2: Our Go bears the imprint of our own limitations and

710
00:40:57,236 --> 00:41:01,516
Speaker 2: cultural specificities. And I find that really endearing, you know, Like,

711
00:41:03,196 --> 00:41:06,396
Speaker 2: but it's funny we both see the same thing and

712
00:41:06,476 --> 00:41:08,516
Speaker 2: are moved by it. I don't think what I'm saying

713
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:11,596
Speaker 2: what you're saying incompatible. I think they're actually competiven.

714
00:41:11,116 --> 00:41:13,956
Speaker 1: Know, I think they're almost opposites, and the fact that

715
00:41:13,956 --> 00:41:17,516
Speaker 1: they are both something to fall in love with about

716
00:41:17,556 --> 00:41:19,196
Speaker 1: the story is amazing. I love that.

717
00:41:19,636 --> 00:41:23,676
Speaker 2: Yeah, but this is actually something that you What I've

718
00:41:23,716 --> 00:41:25,996
Speaker 2: just described is something you do a lot in this book,

719
00:41:26,036 --> 00:41:29,956
Speaker 2: which is there are a lot of moments where it

720
00:41:30,036 --> 00:41:33,996
Speaker 2: appears that you're making points that contradict each other, but

721
00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:37,436
Speaker 2: you're not. This is the furthest from Black and White.

722
00:41:37,836 --> 00:41:39,316
Speaker 2: This book, there is a lot of this kind of

723
00:41:39,396 --> 00:41:42,396
Speaker 2: yinging and yanging in it. I thought was really very

724
00:41:42,516 --> 00:41:47,236
Speaker 2: very you. It's very like it's not like you do

725
00:41:47,276 --> 00:41:50,236
Speaker 2: it this way, not this way, like the necessity of

726
00:41:50,276 --> 00:41:55,716
Speaker 2: being both inwardly sensitive and outwardly sensitive. It's not one

727
00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:58,076
Speaker 2: or the other. It's like just there's a balance that

728
00:41:58,116 --> 00:41:59,116
Speaker 2: you have to kind of observe.

729
00:42:00,156 --> 00:42:02,156
Speaker 4: We'll be right back with the rest of Malcolm Gladwell

730
00:42:02,196 --> 00:42:10,236
Speaker 4: and Rick Rubin's conversation. After a quick break, we're back

731
00:42:10,236 --> 00:42:12,676
Speaker 4: with more from Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell.

732
00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:15,836
Speaker 2: There's a passage there that I really love. Were you

733
00:42:15,876 --> 00:42:19,556
Speaker 2: talking about Sometimes there is a musician who you'll listen

734
00:42:19,596 --> 00:42:23,476
Speaker 2: to when they're trying something radically new. Do you remember

735
00:42:23,476 --> 00:42:26,476
Speaker 2: this and you're baffled by it the first time you listen,

736
00:42:26,516 --> 00:42:28,356
Speaker 2: and baffle the second time, and you keep listening and

737
00:42:28,436 --> 00:42:32,036
Speaker 2: keep listening, and then finally become something you can't live without.

738
00:42:32,676 --> 00:42:34,756
Speaker 2: And I was wondering, was there someone in mind?

739
00:42:34,756 --> 00:42:39,316
Speaker 1: Would you several the first my first experience of that

740
00:42:39,516 --> 00:42:42,196
Speaker 1: was a group called Trouble Funk in the early days

741
00:42:42,196 --> 00:42:45,676
Speaker 1: of hip hop. When I was in high school, the

742
00:42:45,716 --> 00:42:48,636
Speaker 1: only place you could hear hip hop was once a week,

743
00:42:49,196 --> 00:42:54,316
Speaker 1: one hour show on WHBI called Mister Magic's Rap Attack,

744
00:42:54,996 --> 00:42:56,956
Speaker 1: and that was the only and I recorded it. I

745
00:42:56,996 --> 00:42:59,716
Speaker 1: Cassette recorded it every week, as did all the other

746
00:42:59,876 --> 00:43:02,796
Speaker 1: hip hop heads in my high school and you know,

747
00:43:02,876 --> 00:43:06,276
Speaker 1: maybe the six of us, and we would record that

748
00:43:06,356 --> 00:43:08,236
Speaker 1: every week and then that would be all we would

749
00:43:08,236 --> 00:43:10,236
Speaker 1: listen to all week because there were at this point

750
00:43:10,236 --> 00:43:13,876
Speaker 1: in time, there really were no hip hop records available

751
00:43:14,036 --> 00:43:16,396
Speaker 1: to buy. There may have been the Sugar Hill Gang's

752
00:43:16,996 --> 00:43:20,796
Speaker 1: Rappers Delight, but that was the only one. Yet on

753
00:43:20,836 --> 00:43:22,956
Speaker 1: this radio show, he played all these songs. It's like,

754
00:43:22,996 --> 00:43:24,436
Speaker 1: I don't even know where they came from, and they

755
00:43:24,436 --> 00:43:27,956
Speaker 1: were all like twelve inch you know, DJ living where

756
00:43:27,996 --> 00:43:31,196
Speaker 1: I live, it didn't exist. So listen to that every

757
00:43:31,236 --> 00:43:33,836
Speaker 1: week and hear whatever was going on in rap music.

758
00:43:33,836 --> 00:43:37,916
Speaker 1: And again it was a very tight time because all

759
00:43:37,956 --> 00:43:40,436
Speaker 1: there was was an hour and with you know, plus

760
00:43:40,436 --> 00:43:44,116
Speaker 1: it had commercials in it for places like Brad's Record

761
00:43:44,156 --> 00:43:45,916
Speaker 1: Den in the Bronx, which is I guess where you

762
00:43:45,916 --> 00:43:48,676
Speaker 1: could have bought some of those other songs that I

763
00:43:48,676 --> 00:43:50,756
Speaker 1: had never gone at that time. I have gone since.

764
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:57,036
Speaker 1: And one week, in the middle of these all rap songs,

765
00:43:57,676 --> 00:44:00,236
Speaker 1: he played a Troublefunk song, which is not rap music.

766
00:44:00,316 --> 00:44:03,596
Speaker 1: It's go go music, and it's long. And the song

767
00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:07,916
Speaker 1: was maybe seven or nine minutes long. So a seven

768
00:44:08,036 --> 00:44:12,236
Speaker 1: or nine nine rap song took up seven to nine

769
00:44:12,276 --> 00:44:17,716
Speaker 1: minutes of my sixty minutes plus commercials removed my little

770
00:44:17,756 --> 00:44:20,276
Speaker 1: bit of rap music for the week, and I was

771
00:44:20,476 --> 00:44:24,356
Speaker 1: so angry, and I would every time I would listen

772
00:44:24,356 --> 00:44:26,316
Speaker 1: to the cassette, I would forward through the Troublefunk song

773
00:44:26,396 --> 00:44:28,756
Speaker 1: to get to the rap music. And I did this,

774
00:44:28,836 --> 00:44:31,316
Speaker 1: and then one time I listened to the Troublefunk song.

775
00:44:32,316 --> 00:44:36,836
Speaker 1: And then it took time, but eventually, within a couple

776
00:44:36,876 --> 00:44:39,116
Speaker 1: of weeks, the only thing I was listening to on

777
00:44:39,116 --> 00:44:43,636
Speaker 1: that tape was the Troublefunk song. Yeah, so that's one example,

778
00:44:43,716 --> 00:44:45,876
Speaker 1: but I'm sure there are many more. When the first

779
00:44:45,956 --> 00:44:47,516
Speaker 1: I first I remember the first time I heard nine

780
00:44:47,556 --> 00:44:52,156
Speaker 1: inch Nails. I didn't like any of the industrial music

781
00:44:52,236 --> 00:44:54,836
Speaker 1: I had heard up until the point of nine inch Nails,

782
00:44:55,556 --> 00:44:58,396
Speaker 1: and when I heard nine inch Nails, my initial reaction

783
00:44:58,556 --> 00:45:01,196
Speaker 1: to it was, this is that kind of music I

784
00:45:01,196 --> 00:45:03,716
Speaker 1: don't like. I don't like the production. I don't like

785
00:45:03,756 --> 00:45:10,236
Speaker 1: those sounds. And then eventually took probably a year, Nine

786
00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:13,516
Speaker 1: Inch Nails became my favorite group. But the things that

787
00:45:13,556 --> 00:45:16,756
Speaker 1: I didn't like about it weren't the things that were

788
00:45:16,756 --> 00:45:18,636
Speaker 1: good about it in the case of Nine Inch Nails,

789
00:45:18,716 --> 00:45:24,356
Speaker 1: case in Nine Nails case, Trent's songwriting was so far

790
00:45:24,436 --> 00:45:28,276
Speaker 1: superior to anyone else making that kind of music that

791
00:45:28,516 --> 00:45:32,316
Speaker 1: once I could hear his songs, it didn't matter whether

792
00:45:32,396 --> 00:45:35,316
Speaker 1: or not I liked the style. And then when I

793
00:45:35,476 --> 00:45:38,876
Speaker 1: liked the songs, eventually I grew to even like the

794
00:45:38,916 --> 00:45:42,556
Speaker 1: style because his songs made me like the style. Oh,

795
00:45:42,596 --> 00:45:43,196
Speaker 1: I see.

796
00:45:43,476 --> 00:45:47,436
Speaker 2: It's this interesting thing about for different kinds of experience

797
00:45:47,436 --> 00:45:51,156
Speaker 2: and creative experiences, there are different thresholds. The familiar has

798
00:45:51,156 --> 00:45:54,636
Speaker 2: a very low threshold. The unfamiliar has a much longer threshold.

799
00:45:55,076 --> 00:45:57,396
Speaker 2: But what's interesting with that story that is, and it's

800
00:45:57,516 --> 00:46:00,436
Speaker 2: very particular to you, is that you had the patience

801
00:46:01,236 --> 00:46:04,316
Speaker 2: to wait long enough so you could reach the threshold

802
00:46:04,356 --> 00:46:07,716
Speaker 2: of understanding what was what Troublefunk was doing or what

803
00:46:07,756 --> 00:46:11,236
Speaker 2: Trent Resident was doing. That's unusual. So a lot of

804
00:46:11,276 --> 00:46:13,956
Speaker 2: what you're talking about in this book really does seem

805
00:46:13,996 --> 00:46:17,836
Speaker 2: to be things that can be taught and understood. And

806
00:46:17,876 --> 00:46:20,916
Speaker 2: the shift you're this, what you're describing now is something

807
00:46:21,036 --> 00:46:24,396
Speaker 2: very not impossible to teach, but very hard to teach.

808
00:46:25,276 --> 00:46:30,236
Speaker 2: To persist with something you didn't like, the Troublefunk, and

809
00:46:30,316 --> 00:46:33,316
Speaker 2: yet somehow you kept coming back in one way, you

810
00:46:33,356 --> 00:46:36,396
Speaker 2: didn't dismiss it. You disliked it without dismissing it. That's

811
00:46:36,396 --> 00:46:39,276
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm trying to say. That ninety nine

812
00:46:39,276 --> 00:46:43,596
Speaker 2: percent of people when they disliked, they dismiss, but you didn't.

813
00:46:43,916 --> 00:46:45,676
Speaker 2: I want to understand why didn't you.

814
00:46:46,796 --> 00:46:49,956
Speaker 1: I may have back then, I may have dismissed it,

815
00:46:50,316 --> 00:46:52,836
Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, because it was on a cassette,

816
00:46:52,916 --> 00:46:54,916
Speaker 1: and because I had to keep coming back and forward

817
00:46:54,916 --> 00:46:56,916
Speaker 1: when it would come on and I might be doing

818
00:46:56,916 --> 00:46:59,796
Speaker 1: something else in my room, it was able to get

819
00:46:59,796 --> 00:47:01,796
Speaker 1: through to me. And this again we get to the

820
00:47:01,836 --> 00:47:05,916
Speaker 1: metaphysical aspect of it. The universe wanted me to hear Troublefunk.

821
00:47:06,036 --> 00:47:08,316
Speaker 1: That's why I was able to hear it. If it

822
00:47:08,356 --> 00:47:12,196
Speaker 1: wouldn't have resented itself over and over to me, I

823
00:47:12,236 --> 00:47:17,796
Speaker 1: wouldn't have. So yes, I allowed it in, but it

824
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:22,996
Speaker 1: wasn't all me. I'll give you another example. It's not

825
00:47:23,076 --> 00:47:26,396
Speaker 1: uncommon when I'm out and about to have someone recommend

826
00:47:26,476 --> 00:47:29,116
Speaker 1: something that they think I'll like, and when they recommend

827
00:47:29,156 --> 00:47:30,636
Speaker 1: it to me, I listen and it sounds like a

828
00:47:30,716 --> 00:47:33,036
Speaker 1: terrible thing, something that I don't like, the kind of

829
00:47:33,076 --> 00:47:36,156
Speaker 1: thing I don't like. Whatever it is. An example would

830
00:47:36,156 --> 00:47:39,236
Speaker 1: be it's not a real example. A hypothetical example is, oh,

831
00:47:39,276 --> 00:47:41,716
Speaker 1: you love this new horror movie. I don't like horror movies.

832
00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:43,636
Speaker 1: There's no chance I'm going to watch a horror movie.

833
00:47:44,236 --> 00:47:48,756
Speaker 1: That wouldn't work. If three different people who don't know

834
00:47:48,876 --> 00:47:53,596
Speaker 1: each other all suggests to me to watch that horror movie,

835
00:47:54,276 --> 00:47:56,876
Speaker 1: I will watch that horror movie, even though I know

836
00:47:56,956 --> 00:48:00,276
Speaker 1: it's something I don't like. And the reason is the

837
00:48:00,396 --> 00:48:03,356
Speaker 1: universe really wants me to be aware of this. People

838
00:48:03,356 --> 00:48:06,276
Speaker 1: are telling me. Why are people telling me this is

839
00:48:06,316 --> 00:48:09,316
Speaker 1: not for me? So that's an example of a and

840
00:48:09,356 --> 00:48:13,516
Speaker 1: paying attention to the signs around you. If several of

841
00:48:13,556 --> 00:48:18,196
Speaker 1: your friends tell you the same thing that you initially discounted,

842
00:48:18,676 --> 00:48:19,716
Speaker 1: it might be worth a look.

843
00:48:20,116 --> 00:48:22,756
Speaker 2: This is funny because this goes into one of my

844
00:48:23,316 --> 00:48:26,116
Speaker 2: It's similar to one of my little I have a rule.

845
00:48:26,156 --> 00:48:28,476
Speaker 2: I have these implicit rules I carry around in my

846
00:48:28,516 --> 00:48:32,876
Speaker 2: head and one of my rules is never say some

847
00:48:32,996 --> 00:48:36,556
Speaker 2: things that you consume or see or whatever is bad,

848
00:48:37,636 --> 00:48:41,516
Speaker 2: only say I think it's bad right now.

849
00:48:42,076 --> 00:48:43,076
Speaker 1: Yes? Great.

850
00:48:43,596 --> 00:48:48,916
Speaker 2: And by the way, the whole world social media particularly

851
00:48:48,996 --> 00:48:53,156
Speaker 2: would be so greatly improved by that rule. Right, I

852
00:48:53,196 --> 00:48:56,156
Speaker 2: don't like what you I don't like what you said

853
00:48:56,236 --> 00:48:56,756
Speaker 2: right now?

854
00:48:57,356 --> 00:48:57,516
Speaker 1: Yes.

855
00:48:57,636 --> 00:48:57,836
Speaker 3: Yeah.

856
00:48:58,396 --> 00:49:01,276
Speaker 2: It's very different from saying what you said is wrong,

857
00:49:01,756 --> 00:49:05,356
Speaker 2: right it's absolutely whole or opposite. And but adopting that

858
00:49:05,436 --> 00:49:09,956
Speaker 2: with art, I wonder about how many I'm talking about

859
00:49:09,996 --> 00:49:14,356
Speaker 2: some of the critical community, how much criticism, how much

860
00:49:14,356 --> 00:49:17,716
Speaker 2: it would change our understanding of art if critics universally

861
00:49:17,756 --> 00:49:20,836
Speaker 2: followed that rule, and it was if they always acknowledged

862
00:49:21,156 --> 00:49:23,036
Speaker 2: that they may be in a situation that you were

863
00:49:23,076 --> 00:49:26,836
Speaker 2: in with trouble Funk, that the universe wasn't there yet,

864
00:49:27,356 --> 00:49:31,156
Speaker 2: You weren't there yet. And also that story about Troublefunk

865
00:49:31,236 --> 00:49:34,396
Speaker 2: is that you weren't looking for trouble Funk, you were

866
00:49:34,396 --> 00:49:37,156
Speaker 2: looking for hip hop. So like it was an intrusion

867
00:49:37,796 --> 00:49:40,796
Speaker 2: in the beginning, It wasn't a treasure. It was something

868
00:49:40,836 --> 00:49:42,836
Speaker 2: that didn't belong, yes, and.

869
00:49:42,796 --> 00:49:45,876
Speaker 1: It was something that didn't belong and was taking up valuable.

870
00:49:45,436 --> 00:49:50,076
Speaker 2: Time, valuable cassette tech cassette deck space. Yes, because it

871
00:49:50,116 --> 00:49:52,916
Speaker 2: was only sixty minutes. Did you have the nineties back

872
00:49:52,916 --> 00:49:53,956
Speaker 2: then or just the sixties?

873
00:49:54,196 --> 00:49:56,556
Speaker 1: We had sixties and nineties and eventually one twenties.

874
00:49:57,156 --> 00:50:00,276
Speaker 2: I remember that when twenties were huge. But that idea

875
00:50:00,316 --> 00:50:06,036
Speaker 2: of building into our critical assessments some notion about probability,

876
00:50:06,436 --> 00:50:10,836
Speaker 2: that my judgment is conditioned on two things. It do

877
00:50:10,956 --> 00:50:13,596
Speaker 2: seem credic to me, and it is at this moment,

878
00:50:14,276 --> 00:50:16,916
Speaker 2: and both of those things may not be true in

879
00:50:16,996 --> 00:50:19,876
Speaker 2: some future date. I just that just is so insanely

880
00:50:19,956 --> 00:50:23,556
Speaker 2: liberating to me, Like, and I don't understand. Can we

881
00:50:23,636 --> 00:50:27,436
Speaker 2: pass this law that says you're only allowed you must

882
00:50:27,436 --> 00:50:30,596
Speaker 2: always use I think and right now in any creative judgment.

883
00:50:31,196 --> 00:50:35,036
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's also related to another thing mentioned in the book,

884
00:50:35,076 --> 00:50:38,356
Speaker 1: the idea of I can't do that. Yes, we never

885
00:50:38,436 --> 00:50:41,156
Speaker 1: say I can't do that. You can say I haven't

886
00:50:41,156 --> 00:50:41,956
Speaker 1: done that yet.

887
00:50:42,636 --> 00:50:43,436
Speaker 3: Yes, that's yes.

888
00:50:43,436 --> 00:50:46,516
Speaker 2: That is the same that functions the same way. The

889
00:50:46,556 --> 00:50:48,356
Speaker 2: reason I think a book like this is so important

890
00:50:48,436 --> 00:50:50,516
Speaker 2: is this is a little bit of a tangent. But

891
00:50:50,876 --> 00:50:53,596
Speaker 2: I went to give a talk at a university two

892
00:50:53,596 --> 00:50:55,676
Speaker 2: weeks ago and I was to the psychology department and

893
00:50:55,716 --> 00:50:58,676
Speaker 2: I was talking to these psychologists and they were talking

894
00:50:58,676 --> 00:51:02,236
Speaker 2: about mental health, and they were talking about a lot

895
00:51:02,276 --> 00:51:05,396
Speaker 2: of really lovely research right now about how the language

896
00:51:05,436 --> 00:51:09,596
Speaker 2: that you use to describe your feelings in emotions and

897
00:51:09,716 --> 00:51:13,796
Speaker 2: traumas and things is enormously important. You know, to describe

898
00:51:13,796 --> 00:51:16,676
Speaker 2: something this way or that way is not a difference

899
00:51:16,716 --> 00:51:18,876
Speaker 2: in style. It is actually a difference in the way

900
00:51:18,876 --> 00:51:23,516
Speaker 2: that you are processing, understanding, recovering all those kinds of things.

901
00:51:23,836 --> 00:51:26,796
Speaker 2: And one of the things this book did to me was,

902
00:51:27,116 --> 00:51:30,036
Speaker 2: I think this one way of understanding your book is

903
00:51:30,116 --> 00:51:34,036
Speaker 2: it is in that spirit the categories that we use

904
00:51:34,236 --> 00:51:36,596
Speaker 2: and the language that we bring to our understanding of

905
00:51:36,596 --> 00:51:41,556
Speaker 2: creativity really really matters. Like in that section I love

906
00:51:41,596 --> 00:51:43,316
Speaker 2: this that I love so much about when you're talking

907
00:51:43,316 --> 00:51:45,836
Speaker 2: about all the ways you can jog someone out of

908
00:51:45,876 --> 00:51:49,436
Speaker 2: being stuck. When you're stuck, you don't think you don't

909
00:51:49,476 --> 00:51:51,596
Speaker 2: think you can be jogged out by some change in

910
00:51:51,596 --> 00:51:55,076
Speaker 2: your setting or some but in truth, you can. You

911
00:51:55,156 --> 00:51:59,676
Speaker 2: remain acutely sensitive to the influences of your environment. And

912
00:52:00,356 --> 00:52:03,156
Speaker 2: it's so hard for us to understand that those kinds

913
00:52:03,196 --> 00:52:08,316
Speaker 2: the influence and impact of those kinds of framing devices

914
00:52:08,356 --> 00:52:13,956
Speaker 2: and settings. Language are framing devices, right, that is often

915
00:52:13,996 --> 00:52:17,116
Speaker 2: what causes us to suffer unnecessarily.

916
00:52:17,836 --> 00:52:22,396
Speaker 1: Absolutely. There's a teacher named Marshall Rosenberg who wrote a

917
00:52:22,396 --> 00:52:26,196
Speaker 1: book which is not a great book, called Nonviolent Communication,

918
00:52:26,996 --> 00:52:29,156
Speaker 1: and he's a great teacher, but he's not a great writer,

919
00:52:29,316 --> 00:52:33,236
Speaker 1: and he passed recently unfortunately. But I would suggest people

920
00:52:33,756 --> 00:52:37,156
Speaker 1: if they're interested in Marshall Rosenberg, there is an audio

921
00:52:37,516 --> 00:52:42,316
Speaker 1: called speaking Piece that is better than the book, and

922
00:52:42,356 --> 00:52:47,436
Speaker 1: then watch videos of him on YouTube, just because the book.

923
00:52:47,676 --> 00:52:51,236
Speaker 1: I found the book hard to understand, but it's basically

924
00:52:51,276 --> 00:52:54,676
Speaker 1: all about this. The language of our culture is violent,

925
00:52:55,396 --> 00:52:58,276
Speaker 1: and it's not just violent towards each other, it's violent

926
00:52:58,276 --> 00:53:02,836
Speaker 1: towards ourselves. Every time we say I should have done that,

927
00:53:03,076 --> 00:53:06,156
Speaker 1: When you say I should, it's called a make wrong.

928
00:53:06,716 --> 00:53:09,596
Speaker 1: So by saying I should have done it means I

929
00:53:09,836 --> 00:53:12,236
Speaker 1: was wrong. This is the right way to do it

930
00:53:12,476 --> 00:53:15,076
Speaker 1: when at the time you were doing the best you could.

931
00:53:14,596 --> 00:53:18,236
Speaker 1: So when at the time you're doing the best you can,

932
00:53:18,356 --> 00:53:22,716
Speaker 1: to make yourself wrong isn't helpful. Yeah, And there's a

933
00:53:22,716 --> 00:53:28,596
Speaker 1: whole list of trigger words and ways of sharing a

934
00:53:28,676 --> 00:53:33,556
Speaker 1: vocabulary of feeling that helps us better communicate, and when

935
00:53:33,556 --> 00:53:37,476
Speaker 1: we communicate better, we tend to get along better. It's beautiful,

936
00:53:37,636 --> 00:53:38,396
Speaker 1: beautiful teaching.

937
00:53:38,756 --> 00:53:42,596
Speaker 2: Yeah, a couple other smaller things. There's a couple of

938
00:53:42,636 --> 00:53:45,556
Speaker 2: bones in this book where I scribbled in the in

939
00:53:45,596 --> 00:53:48,436
Speaker 2: the margins who is Rick talking about? But there was

940
00:53:48,516 --> 00:53:52,316
Speaker 2: one that I wanted you to if you don't mind.

941
00:53:52,836 --> 00:53:55,716
Speaker 2: You talked about how you were working with an artist

942
00:53:55,756 --> 00:53:58,676
Speaker 2: on a song which was a love song, and you

943
00:53:58,756 --> 00:54:00,956
Speaker 2: were trying to solve the problem, and you finally solve

944
00:54:00,996 --> 00:54:04,756
Speaker 2: the problem by telling the artists don't think of a

945
00:54:04,876 --> 00:54:07,516
Speaker 2: romantic partner, think of it as a devotional to God.

946
00:54:08,236 --> 00:54:09,716
Speaker 2: Who is the song and who was the artist?

947
00:54:09,756 --> 00:54:12,236
Speaker 1: Can you tell me? That was Johnny Cash? And the

948
00:54:12,276 --> 00:54:14,836
Speaker 1: song was the first time ever I saw your face.

949
00:54:15,636 --> 00:54:20,316
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Oh that's so interesting. I know that

950
00:54:20,476 --> 00:54:25,436
Speaker 2: version so well. That's totally blowing my mind because that's

951
00:54:25,476 --> 00:54:28,636
Speaker 2: what it listens like. Yeah, oh my god, it's genius, Rick,

952
00:54:28,756 --> 00:54:29,636
Speaker 2: that is genius.

953
00:54:29,716 --> 00:54:33,036
Speaker 1: And it was also Oh and I interviewed Roger mcgwinny

954
00:54:33,036 --> 00:54:37,236
Speaker 1: the other day and he talked about the first Bird

955
00:54:37,356 --> 00:54:41,956
Speaker 1: single was Mister Tambourine Man and out of the blue.

956
00:54:42,036 --> 00:54:43,836
Speaker 1: He said, yeah, when I sang it in the studio,

957
00:54:43,916 --> 00:54:47,276
Speaker 1: no one knows this, but I sang it as a

958
00:54:47,316 --> 00:54:50,396
Speaker 1: devotional to God. I said, but the lyrics aren't about that.

959
00:54:50,436 --> 00:54:53,156
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I know, but that's how I

960
00:54:53,236 --> 00:54:56,236
Speaker 1: was able to sing it and feel it, and it

961
00:54:56,276 --> 00:54:57,036
Speaker 1: blew my mind.

962
00:54:57,556 --> 00:55:00,436
Speaker 2: Oh that's really interesting. This is why I missed liner

963
00:55:00,476 --> 00:55:03,716
Speaker 2: notes so much. I feel like this is the functional

964
00:55:03,796 --> 00:55:07,116
Speaker 2: but ray those two facts about the first time I

965
00:55:07,116 --> 00:55:11,156
Speaker 2: saw your face and mister Tamery Man, those both changed

966
00:55:11,556 --> 00:55:15,716
Speaker 2: radically change the way you hear those songs. Yes, the

967
00:55:15,756 --> 00:55:20,116
Speaker 2: Cash song makes way more sense. I've almost not understood

968
00:55:20,156 --> 00:55:23,356
Speaker 2: why I found that song so powerful. Yes, it really

969
00:55:23,996 --> 00:55:26,196
Speaker 2: in the context of all those ones, it's one of

970
00:55:26,236 --> 00:55:29,636
Speaker 2: the ones that it pops in this kind of strange

971
00:55:29,676 --> 00:55:32,556
Speaker 2: way and it's haunting in a way you don't And

972
00:55:32,596 --> 00:55:35,116
Speaker 2: now I understand why he's singing it with a completely

973
00:55:35,116 --> 00:55:36,556
Speaker 2: different intention than I imagined.

974
00:55:37,316 --> 00:55:40,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and if you listen to the original song,

975
00:55:40,196 --> 00:55:43,396
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Or when I say the original the popular version,

976
00:55:43,436 --> 00:55:46,636
Speaker 1: because the popular version is not the original either. You

977
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:50,676
Speaker 1: know it was written by Iwan McCall and it's an

978
00:55:50,716 --> 00:55:53,476
Speaker 1: Irish folk song. And if you've ever heard the Irish

979
00:55:53,476 --> 00:55:55,796
Speaker 1: folk song version of it, it's almost like a yodel,

980
00:55:56,076 --> 00:56:00,796
Speaker 1: you know, it's very unlike all the versions that we're

981
00:56:00,996 --> 00:56:01,636
Speaker 1: familiar with.

982
00:56:01,956 --> 00:56:03,596
Speaker 2: I realized when I read that as well, that I

983
00:56:03,596 --> 00:56:06,476
Speaker 2: have a version of that, which is years and years ago.

984
00:56:06,596 --> 00:56:09,476
Speaker 2: I sat down on an airplane next to a guy

985
00:56:09,476 --> 00:56:11,276
Speaker 2: who happened to be reading one of my books, and

986
00:56:11,356 --> 00:56:14,436
Speaker 2: I had this very very long conversation with him, and

987
00:56:15,116 --> 00:56:16,716
Speaker 2: he was I s don't know what he did.

988
00:56:16,756 --> 00:56:17,476
Speaker 3: He opened.

989
00:56:18,596 --> 00:56:21,236
Speaker 2: His job was to go around the country opening Trader Joe's.

990
00:56:21,996 --> 00:56:23,596
Speaker 2: He was coming from New York. They were opening a

991
00:56:23,596 --> 00:56:25,676
Speaker 2: store like in Brooklyn or something. And he'd just been

992
00:56:25,676 --> 00:56:30,276
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn for a month, lived in Atlanta, had two kids,

993
00:56:31,316 --> 00:56:34,596
Speaker 2: was about thirty, you know, eight years old, business school degree.

994
00:56:34,636 --> 00:56:37,756
Speaker 2: I think maybe not. Anyway, I had a lovely chat

995
00:56:37,756 --> 00:56:40,596
Speaker 2: with him, and I realized, oh, that's my reader. And

996
00:56:40,676 --> 00:56:43,956
Speaker 2: every time I'm stuck I think about him. Beautiful, it's

997
00:56:43,996 --> 00:56:46,676
Speaker 2: for him. He was beautiful and he said because he

998
00:56:46,716 --> 00:56:48,916
Speaker 2: only read. He told me. He said, I'm very very busy.

999
00:56:48,956 --> 00:56:51,476
Speaker 2: I teach Sunday school, like I'm a coach in my

1000
00:56:51,636 --> 00:56:53,236
Speaker 2: kids little league, and I have this job which is

1001
00:56:53,276 --> 00:56:55,916
Speaker 2: very demanding. I have time to read three books a year.

1002
00:56:56,716 --> 00:56:59,916
Speaker 2: And I realized, oh, and he's chosen one of mine.

1003
00:57:00,676 --> 00:57:04,796
Speaker 2: I'm one of his three, which is like phenomenally flattering thing.

1004
00:57:05,396 --> 00:57:07,956
Speaker 2: And I realized, Oh, if I can keep being one

1005
00:57:07,996 --> 00:57:11,316
Speaker 2: of his three books every year, then I I will succeed.

1006
00:57:12,116 --> 00:57:14,836
Speaker 2: Beautiful and that beautiful about them all the time it

1007
00:57:14,876 --> 00:57:15,116
Speaker 2: was like.

1008
00:57:15,036 --> 00:57:15,836
Speaker 1: A let's love great.

1009
00:57:16,076 --> 00:57:19,796
Speaker 2: Yeah really really but it is. It's insanely liberating to

1010
00:57:19,996 --> 00:57:23,356
Speaker 2: know that's what it's for, right, Yes.

1011
00:57:23,716 --> 00:57:29,796
Speaker 1: On the fact that you randomly got assigned that seat

1012
00:57:30,196 --> 00:57:34,676
Speaker 1: he happened to be reading your book on that particular flight. Yeah,

1013
00:57:34,796 --> 00:57:38,196
Speaker 1: it could be it's all a coincidence. Yet it's what

1014
00:57:38,276 --> 00:57:40,356
Speaker 1: you needed to hear to be able to keep doing

1015
00:57:40,396 --> 00:57:42,716
Speaker 1: what you've been doing for all these years since then

1016
00:57:43,636 --> 00:57:47,956
Speaker 1: maybe it's accidental. Who knows. That's that's that's the points,

1017
00:57:47,996 --> 00:57:52,956
Speaker 1: Like these things happen all the time. Yeah, maybe they're

1018
00:57:53,196 --> 00:57:55,516
Speaker 1: all accidents. It's fine, it doesn't matter if they are

1019
00:57:55,636 --> 00:57:59,196
Speaker 1: or not. Yeah, but if they happen, and if you

1020
00:57:59,276 --> 00:58:03,796
Speaker 1: can use that information like you do, we all win.

1021
00:58:04,356 --> 00:58:09,356
Speaker 2: Yeah, all to the better or one last thing, the

1022
00:58:08,876 --> 00:58:12,476
Speaker 2: last the underlines in your book, Page three sixty five,

1023
00:58:13,676 --> 00:58:17,076
Speaker 2: and I was like, wait, I didn't expect this. Rich

1024
00:58:17,396 --> 00:58:20,796
Speaker 2: was hold on, let me just go there. Also, I

1025
00:58:20,876 --> 00:58:23,516
Speaker 2: don't know why in retrospect I found this so surprising,

1026
00:58:24,196 --> 00:58:26,796
Speaker 2: but you say, when I work with artists, we make

1027
00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:30,076
Speaker 2: an agreement, we continue the process until reaching the point

1028
00:58:30,196 --> 00:58:34,916
Speaker 2: where we are all happy with the work. All in

1029
00:58:35,676 --> 00:58:39,716
Speaker 2: is italicized in that. And I was like, I realize,

1030
00:58:39,876 --> 00:58:42,356
Speaker 2: and maybe this is because how badly I needed your book.

1031
00:58:43,076 --> 00:58:46,156
Speaker 2: It never occurred to me that there would be art

1032
00:58:46,236 --> 00:58:48,276
Speaker 2: on the level that you have been a part of

1033
00:58:48,316 --> 00:58:53,116
Speaker 2: creating without dissent. I just I was just shocked by

1034
00:58:53,156 --> 00:58:56,436
Speaker 2: I was like, wait, You've done all this for so

1035
00:58:56,516 --> 00:59:00,436
Speaker 2: many years, with so many different people under an explicit

1036
00:59:00,556 --> 00:59:03,956
Speaker 2: promise of unanimity. That blew my mind.

1037
00:59:04,356 --> 00:59:08,036
Speaker 1: They'll be descent along the way. Yeah, but that just

1038
00:59:08,116 --> 00:59:10,956
Speaker 1: means we haven't gone are enough. It just means if

1039
00:59:11,556 --> 00:59:14,116
Speaker 1: you like it and I don't, it's not good enough.

1040
00:59:14,236 --> 00:59:16,196
Speaker 1: And if I like it and you don't, it's not

1041
00:59:16,276 --> 00:59:19,636
Speaker 1: good enough. And if we can get to the point

1042
00:59:19,636 --> 00:59:22,556
Speaker 1: where we both love it, it's probably better than the

1043
00:59:22,556 --> 00:59:24,756
Speaker 1: one that one of us loved and the other didn't.

1044
00:59:25,036 --> 00:59:28,236
Speaker 1: And if there are five people in a band, and

1045
00:59:28,316 --> 00:59:31,156
Speaker 1: if three of them like it and two of them don't,

1046
00:59:32,036 --> 00:59:33,636
Speaker 1: and you get to the point where all five of

1047
00:59:33,636 --> 00:59:37,196
Speaker 1: them like it, chances are it's better and not.

1048
00:59:37,316 --> 00:59:41,156
Speaker 2: Just that you're done. Yes, yeah, No, it was just

1049
00:59:41,196 --> 00:59:44,276
Speaker 2: like such a kind of I just thought of that.

1050
00:59:44,276 --> 00:59:46,956
Speaker 2: That idea that what you're building in the end is

1051
00:59:46,956 --> 00:59:49,996
Speaker 2: a kind of harmony among all the all of the voices,

1052
00:59:50,076 --> 00:59:53,956
Speaker 2: is a beautiful way to end a very very beautiful book.

1053
00:59:54,556 --> 00:59:56,196
Speaker 1: There's there's a part in the book where we talk

1054
00:59:56,236 --> 01:00:00,756
Speaker 1: about cooperation, which is exactly this working with other people. Historically,

1055
01:00:01,396 --> 01:00:05,556
Speaker 1: I'll say most times that people work together, there's a

1056
01:00:05,756 --> 01:00:10,996
Speaker 1: rivalry of ideas. Each person is arguing to win the

1057
01:00:11,076 --> 01:00:14,316
Speaker 1: debate to have their idea be the one that's chosen.

1058
01:00:15,196 --> 01:00:19,516
Speaker 1: And I'm saying that's not productive, and the best way

1059
01:00:19,556 --> 01:00:22,756
Speaker 1: to do it is for everyone to demonstrate their ideas.

1060
01:00:22,796 --> 01:00:25,476
Speaker 1: It's even better if they're demonstrated in a blind way

1061
01:00:25,516 --> 01:00:28,956
Speaker 1: where we don't even know whose idea is what. We

1062
01:00:29,156 --> 01:00:34,836
Speaker 1: just hear the ideas and then everybody picks and usually

1063
01:00:35,076 --> 01:00:37,956
Speaker 1: it's pretty obvious, and it really does happen naturally, and

1064
01:00:38,276 --> 01:00:41,836
Speaker 1: it's only through the ego of wanting it to be

1065
01:00:42,076 --> 01:00:47,556
Speaker 1: my way. That they are these conflicts, but if everyone

1066
01:00:47,636 --> 01:00:49,916
Speaker 1: is working together for it to be the best that

1067
01:00:49,956 --> 01:00:52,996
Speaker 1: it can be, and if we respect each other enough

1068
01:00:52,996 --> 01:00:54,716
Speaker 1: to know, if I think it's the best it can

1069
01:00:54,756 --> 01:00:57,276
Speaker 1: be and you think it can be better, I'll go

1070
01:00:57,316 --> 01:01:02,076
Speaker 1: on that ride and same the other way. Ultimately we

1071
01:01:02,116 --> 01:01:05,076
Speaker 1: get to a beautiful place Rick. That is lovely.

1072
01:01:05,436 --> 01:01:09,356
Speaker 2: And thank you for writing such a beautiful book. Any

1073
01:01:09,396 --> 01:01:11,236
Speaker 2: many many people enjoy it as much as I have.

1074
01:01:11,956 --> 01:01:13,996
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you reading it.

1075
01:01:13,996 --> 01:01:18,956
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. It makes me happy.

1076
01:01:19,236 --> 01:01:21,236
Speaker 4: I want to thank Rick on the Record for taking

1077
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Speaker 4: the time to put his philosophies around creativity and a book.

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Speaker 4: The Creative Act, A Way of Being is out now.

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Speaker 4: Be sure to check it out. You can subscribe to

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Speaker 4: our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast.

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Speaker 4: We can find all of our new episodes. You can

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Speaker 4: follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is

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Speaker 4: produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Talliday,

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Speaker 4: and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record

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Speaker 4: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this

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Speaker 4: show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin plus

1087
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Speaker 4: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

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01:01:59,076 --> 01:02:02,356
Speaker 4: an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

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Speaker 4: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if

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Speaker 4: you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and

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Speaker 4: review us on your podcast app. I Think Music, Expectkenny Beats.

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Speaker 4: I'm Justin Richmond

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Speaker 1: M HM.