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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today

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Speaker 1: we're bringing you the third part in the four part

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Speaker 1: mini series from Communicating Climate Change podcast host dick and

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Speaker 1: Bombickstone and Norwegian nonprofit KLIMA Cool Tour The Black Thread,

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Speaker 1: about Norway's conflicted identity as both an oil state and

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Speaker 1: a progressive leader in the world today. Episode three challenging

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Speaker 1: the narratives. Much of the ability of Norway's oil industry

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Speaker 1: to maintain its influence and continue with business as usual

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Speaker 1: comes from the lack of questions being asked about its

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Speaker 1: ideas and about how the world works. In this episode,

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Speaker 1: The Black Thread steps away from that norm and challenges

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Speaker 1: industry rhetoric head on.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to The Black Thread, a podcast unraveling Norway's

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Speaker 3: complex relationship with prosperity, identity, and responsibility in a warming world.

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Speaker 3: I'm Dickon, a climate communications expert based in Oslo, the

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Speaker 3: Norwegian capital, Tracing the Black Thread oil through Norway, society

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Speaker 3: and culture. Last time we delved into petroganda in Norway,

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Speaker 3: hearing how critics perceive the industry's strategic use of sponsorships,

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Speaker 3: advertising and storytelling work to uphold a narrative of oil

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Speaker 3: normalization and acceptability. We learned how oil interests are embedded

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Speaker 3: in the boards of cultural institutions, government agencies, and even

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Speaker 3: the nation's schooling whilst what many consider to be faded

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Speaker 3: journalistic scrutiny contributes to the erosion of public awareness and debate. Plus,

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Speaker 3: we heard how oil and climate are often treated as

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Speaker 3: separate issues in policy, and how this shapes the limits

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Speaker 3: of public discourse. Yet both critics and industry voices agreed

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Speaker 3: about one thing. Norway needs open discussions about its future

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Speaker 3: grounded in facts. In this episode, we'll explore where the

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Speaker 3: facts do and don't match up to the stories being

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Speaker 3: told by Nory's fossil fuel industry, amplified by its government,

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Speaker 3: and legitimized through a wealth of public outreach. We'll hear

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Speaker 3: experts challenge some of the most familiar narratives that keep

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Speaker 3: Norwegian oil and gas pumping, and industry voices will explain

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Speaker 3: the logic behind their rhetoric. Along the way, we'll try

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Speaker 3: to find answers to questions like was Norway really poor

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Speaker 3: before oil? Will it be poor if it stops pumping

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Speaker 3: fossil fuels today? What will happen to the famous Norwegian

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Speaker 3: welfare system, won't. Lots of people lose their jobs and

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Speaker 3: many more. As we've heard in previous episodes, oil has

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Speaker 3: become important to the Norwegian identity and plays a major

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Speaker 3: role in public perceptions of the country's success as well

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Speaker 3: as its wealth. But Norwegian attitudes towards oil haven't always

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Speaker 3: been unwavering. In the early days, there was caution and concern.

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Speaker 3: Kick things off by exploring this shift in perspective. Author

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Speaker 3: journalist and project leader at the Norwegian Climate Foundation an

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Speaker 3: A Current Satha, explains how Norway's first oil discoveries were

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Speaker 3: met with careful consideration.

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Speaker 4: In the beginning in the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 4: it was a lot of criticism actually towards this new industry,

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Speaker 4: and that's not part of the story, funny enough, but

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Speaker 4: people were asking, why should we do this? Isn't it dangerous?

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Speaker 4: And what's actually happening? People were skeptical. I guess it

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Speaker 4: was only in the eighties when we were sort of prouder.

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Speaker 4: It was established as something in the Norwegian debate and consciousness.

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Speaker 3: Even though oil and gas have become central to Norway's economy,

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Speaker 3: and identity. It's worth noting that this influence has taken

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Speaker 3: shape in just a few decades. According to our experts,

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Speaker 3: Norwegians weren't automatically on board with this new national venture.

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Speaker 3: To learn more, I asked bord Land from the University

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Speaker 3: of Oslo's Oil and Society Research Network to expand on

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Speaker 3: how the industry was first perceived.

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Speaker 2: The discussions about oil and gas policy and kind of

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Speaker 2: how to govern Norwegian oil and gas resources tended actually

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Speaker 2: to be much more critical during the first couple of decades.

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Speaker 2: And this whole kind of success story about the Norwegian

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Speaker 2: only Aventa, the oil adventure, the oil fairy tale, and

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Speaker 2: this whole idea that Norway has been so good at

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Speaker 2: handling and managing the wealth from the oil and gas.

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Speaker 2: All of these things are quite new constructs, and so

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Speaker 2: the idea that oil is overwhelmingly positive to Norwegian society

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Speaker 2: is something that to some extent appeared alongside the Oil Fund.

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Speaker 2: The discussions about the role of oil in Norwegian society

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Speaker 2: were actually much more hesitant, and you even see it

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Speaker 2: in official documents. They are definitely highlighting the wealth and

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Speaker 2: the prosperity that oil might bring, but there also skeptical

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Speaker 2: towards the downsides and the problems and the potential tensions

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Speaker 2: that might arise due to this new industry.

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Speaker 3: So, according to Board, it wasn't always a fairy tale

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Speaker 3: of fate and fortune, as we're often led to believe

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Speaker 3: in Norway. He points out that this narrative of oil

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Speaker 3: as an unmitigated success only really took shape once climate

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Speaker 3: change became a core issue. Based on what we've heard

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Speaker 3: in the previous episodes about industry efforts to shape public perception,

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Speaker 3: even targeting young people to ensure a future generation of

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Speaker 3: oil positive citizens, it's worth considering whether this story emerged

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Speaker 3: organically or whether it was ceded strategically. With both Board

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Speaker 3: and Anakarn claiming that the narrative around Norway's oil discovery

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Speaker 3: has changed over time, we have to ask how this

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Speaker 3: has happened. When I spoke to Anna Karin, she identified

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Speaker 3: three myths that she says have contributed to this shift

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Speaker 3: in perspective.

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Speaker 4: The first is that we have climate friendly oil and

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Speaker 4: gas production. We have less during extraction due to an

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Speaker 4: early ban on flaring and electrification of the installations offshore,

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Speaker 4: and since Nowechan oil and gas have relatively lower emissions

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Speaker 4: than the average in the world. It will be good

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Speaker 4: if you use nowech and oil instead of oil and

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Speaker 4: gas from other places. So that's why they have been

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Speaker 4: calling it climate friendly or clean oil and gas. But

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Speaker 4: the thing that is not so much talked about in

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Speaker 4: this area in strategic communication, you sort of put a

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Speaker 4: lot of light on some parts of the story and

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Speaker 4: others are put in the shade. And what is put

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Speaker 4: in the shade when it comes to this is that

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Speaker 4: the production counts up to something like two or three

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Speaker 4: percent of the total of emissions. What counts is when

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Speaker 4: you combust the oil and gas, that's like ninety seven percent.

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Speaker 4: And if you have a fossil fuel car a petrol

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Speaker 4: car and you drive it on the highway, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: really matter if the petrol comes from Norway or Nigeria

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Speaker 4: or other countries. The emissions will be just as big.

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Speaker 3: The first of Anikarin so called oil myths is that

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Speaker 3: Norway's oil is climate friendly. We've heard that one before.

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Speaker 3: In fact, it's a line that comes up often from

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Speaker 3: all kinds of sources. But just as we found with

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Speaker 3: the industry communication discussed in the previous episode, important context

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Speaker 3: that would reveal the true nature of such a claim

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Speaker 3: tends to be left out, but let's hear some more

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Speaker 3: from Anikarin.

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Speaker 4: The second one is that gas from Norway replaces coal

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Speaker 4: in Europe. Since Europe can use gas instead of coal,

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Speaker 4: we can contribute to lowering emissions in Europe. And the

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Speaker 4: oil industry has used data showing us how much emissions

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Speaker 4: will be reduced in Europe if our gas replaces coal.

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Speaker 4: But that's not what's happening because there's just a little

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Speaker 4: bit of the gas that is actually going into power

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Speaker 4: generation and that's where they compete oil and gas with

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Speaker 4: renewables and with energy efficiency. But that's not part of

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Speaker 4: the story. And gas may replace coal in the short run,

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Speaker 4: but it will lock us to gas infrastructure, and it

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Speaker 4: will hinder the energy transition. It will sort of stand

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Speaker 4: in the way for more renewables, and that's not part

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Speaker 4: of the story unfortunately.

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Speaker 3: So the second of Ana carn so called oil myths

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Speaker 3: is that replacing coal with gas is a climate solution.

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Speaker 3: But let's hear the last one.

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Speaker 4: The third myth is that we must stand on the

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Speaker 4: shoulders of today's petroleum industry in order to succeed in

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Speaker 4: the green transition, and as with all myths, you could

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Speaker 4: argue that it is some truth in it, because offshore

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Speaker 4: know how from the petroleum industry is useful when we're

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Speaker 4: to build offshore win like it was useful back in

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Speaker 4: the days to have a maritime industry history when we

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Speaker 4: started off with oil and gas. But it obscures the

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Speaker 4: fact that we're standing at the crossroad and that we

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Speaker 4: have to make a choice. Do we go into even

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Speaker 4: more oil and gas or do we go into more renewables.

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Speaker 4: It's actually a choice, and by saying that we have

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Speaker 4: to stand on the shoulders of oil and gas, you

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Speaker 4: sort of say that we can just continue, we can

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Speaker 4: build upwards, we can just do more of the same

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Speaker 4: and somehow one day wake up and be in a

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Speaker 4: renewable society. It's so deep in the Norwegian debate, this

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Speaker 4: last one. It's fascinating, But we can't do two things

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Speaker 4: at the same time. You have a limited amount of expertise,

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Speaker 4: employees and available money to invest, So there's obviously problems

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Speaker 4: with all this story.

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Speaker 3: The third of anakharinsarth that's so called oil myths is

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Speaker 3: that the fossil fuel industry is essential to a green

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Speaker 3: transition together. She claims these myths shape a story in

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Speaker 3: which Norwegian oil and gas come across as not just

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Speaker 3: acceptable but even good, a story that makes the industry

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Speaker 3: appear more compatible with climate action than it might really be,

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Speaker 3: and that helps justify continued drilling. To many, such messaging

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Speaker 3: might sound too convenient to be taken at face value,

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Speaker 3: But how does the industry itself explain and defend it.

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Speaker 3: To explore the logic behind these narratives and the paradox

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Speaker 3: of the Norwegian identity they help sustain, I spoke with

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Speaker 3: and Catharine vorga climate policy manager at Offshore Norway, the

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Speaker 3: organization that represents companies operating on the Norwegian continental shelf,

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Speaker 3: many with a direct stake in oil and gas. As

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Speaker 3: someone whose role is shaping climate policy whilst at the

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Speaker 3: same time advocating for the very industry that that policy

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Speaker 3: is meant to regulate, her perspective is especially useful for

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Speaker 3: understanding how the industry squares its climate ambitions on the

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Speaker 3: one hand with its dependence on fossil fuel production on

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Speaker 3: the other.

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Speaker 5: My role as a climate policy manager is to give

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Speaker 5: advice and input to the authorities on climate policies and regulations.

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Speaker 5: When oil and gas are burned, considerable emissions are released

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Speaker 5: to the atmosphere, contributing to the global warming and climate change.

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Speaker 5: And I think that's why the work with the climate

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Speaker 5: policy within the oil and gas industry is so important.

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Speaker 5: We must both reduce emissions linked oil and gas, but

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Speaker 5: at the same time we must increase the production of

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Speaker 5: renewable energy also not gaz. Together with our partners, we

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Speaker 5: have established very ambitious climate targets and we aim to

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Speaker 5: reduce emissions from the oil and gas production by fifty

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Speaker 5: percent in twenty third thirty and to near zero in

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Speaker 5: twenty fifty and this will be very challenging. We are

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Speaker 5: engaged in reducing emissions from the use of the oil

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Speaker 5: and gas by capturing the C two and storing it

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Speaker 5: or by producing blue hydrogen.

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Speaker 3: Let me quickly help here. Blue hydrogen is a fuel

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Speaker 3: created using methane derived from fossil gas. Now back to

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Speaker 3: and Catherine.

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Speaker 5: We are also heavily engaged in the development of offshore

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Speaker 5: wind sector in Norway and the policy measures that are

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Speaker 5: needed for the energy transition from fossil fuels to the renewables.

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Speaker 5: So I wouldn't say that there are tensions between working

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Speaker 5: with climate policy and working in the oil and gas sector.

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Speaker 5: On the contrary, climate policies is actually a full of

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Speaker 5: integrated part of shows activities.

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Speaker 3: And Catherine points to efforts to reduce emissions from oil

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Speaker 3: and gas production to zero by twenty fifty as evan

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Speaker 3: of the industries taking responsibility for its actions. But as

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Speaker 3: we just heard, only three percent of the total emissions

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Speaker 3: from oil and gas are associated with their production. Even

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Speaker 3: if the industry hits its twenty fifty targets, that doesn't

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Speaker 3: help with the ninety seven percent of emissions released into

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Speaker 3: the atmosphere when Norwegian oil is burned at the use phase.

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Speaker 3: At the same time, while she highlights the likes of

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Speaker 3: CO two capture, blue hydrogen production and offshore wind development

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Speaker 3: as ways that the industry is contributing to both dealing

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Speaker 3: with those use phase emissions on the one hand and

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Speaker 3: transitioning away from oil and gas towards renewable energy on

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Speaker 3: the other, critics contend that neither carbon capture and storage

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Speaker 3: nor blue hydrogen are anywhere near developed enough to make

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Speaker 3: a meaningful impact. In fact, Equinor and others recently scrapped

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Speaker 3: plans to export blue hydrogen abroad due to a lack

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Speaker 3: of demand for fossil based fuels compared to their renewable counterparts. However,

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Speaker 3: despite this demand and ambitious goals to develop Norways off

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Speaker 3: shore wind capacity, earlier this year, Equinor, who are perhaps

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Speaker 3: best placed to make strides in the sector, and several

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Speaker 3: of their peers, also rolled back their offshore wind targets too.

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Speaker 3: So while Anne Catherine claims that climate policy is fully

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Speaker 3: integrated into oil and gas activities, the messaging seems to

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Speaker 3: be moving much faster than the technologies it's highlighting. Next,

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Speaker 3: I asked how the planned expansion of Noua's oil and

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Speaker 3: gas industry could be even remotely in alignment with the

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Speaker 3: international obligations set out by the Paris Agreement. It's here

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Speaker 3: in Ane Catherine's response that the black thread becomes a knot,

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Speaker 3: a tightly wound tangle of industry led narratives, strategies and claims.

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Speaker 3: As Anakar and Sath from the Norwegian Climate Foundation told

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Speaker 3: us earlier, in strategic communication, some things are brought into

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Speaker 3: the light and others are left in the shade. So

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Speaker 3: as we listen to Ann Catherine's answer to my question,

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Speaker 3: it's worth asking ourselves what's left out? How are her

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Speaker 3: claims framed to make oil gas appear more compatible with

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Speaker 3: climate goals than perhaps they actually are, and which so

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Speaker 3: called myths does she invoke along the way?

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Speaker 5: An increase of the total oil and gas production will

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Speaker 5: obviously lead to more emissions, and it is not in

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Speaker 5: line with the goals of the Paris Agreement. Aill oil

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Speaker 5: and gas have the same amount of emissions when you

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Speaker 5: use it, but emissions link to the production and the

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Speaker 5: transportation of the oil and gas differ significantly, and using

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Speaker 5: oil and gas from Norway instead of using oil and

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Speaker 5: gas from other countries can then lead to less emissions

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Speaker 5: as we have less emissions from the production side, and

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Speaker 5: therefore be in line with the aim of the Paris Agreement.

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Speaker 5: But also replacing coal with oil and gas will have

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Speaker 5: a significant effect on emissions. So if the expansion of

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Speaker 5: the oil and gas production replaces alternatives with more emissions

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Speaker 5: and leads to actual total lower emissions, that is in

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Speaker 5: line with aim of the Peri's agreement to reduce the

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Speaker 5: greenose gas emissions.

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Speaker 3: Did you catch that we just heard two of the

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Speaker 3: so called oil myths, first the idea of Norwegian oil

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Speaker 3: being climate friendly and second that replacing coal with oil

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Speaker 3: and gas is a climate solution. As we've discussed, the

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Speaker 3: climate friendly oil framing highlights production efficiency but doesn't account

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Speaker 3: for the total emissions from consumption or the long term

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Speaker 3: lock in effects of continued fossil fuel dependence. Similarly, replacing

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Speaker 3: coal with oil and gas might reduce emissions in the

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Speaker 3: short term, but it still locks in carbon intensive energy infrastructure,

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Speaker 3: as Anakarr and Sather explained earlier, delaying the shift to

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Speaker 3: genuinely renewable sources. But let's keep listening. Here's and Catherine

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Speaker 3: Vorga again moving on to the expansion of noise oil

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Speaker 3: and gas activities.

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Speaker 5: The outlook for the production of the oil and gas

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Speaker 5: in Norway is that in some years we will reach

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Speaker 5: peak production and then we will see a significant decline.

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Speaker 5: So the exploration for new resources will ensure that the

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Speaker 5: downward production curve will not be steeper than the demand curve.

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Speaker 5: So exploration for more oil and gas in Norway as

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Speaker 5: we see today will not be an expansion from the

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Speaker 5: current level. Almost all of the oil and gas produced

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Speaker 5: in Norway alsold to uk and ere and the Russian

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Speaker 5: invasion of Ukraine has clearly demonstrated how dependent Europe is

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Speaker 5: of the energy from Norway, and EU has now decided

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Speaker 5: to stop the import of oil and gas from Russia,

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Speaker 5: and their main priority is of course to replace this

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Speaker 5: by investments in renewable energy and energy efficiency. But it

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Speaker 5: takes time to build new renewable capacity, and in the

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Speaker 5: short medium term the oil and gas from Russia will

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Speaker 5: have to be replaced by oil and gas from other countries,

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Speaker 5: and in climate perspective, oil and gas from Norway are

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Speaker 5: produced with lower carbon footprint than oil and gas from

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Speaker 5: other contries.

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Speaker 3: In this part of her response, we hear the familiar

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Speaker 3: petroganda narrative of energy security, as discussed in the previous episode.

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Speaker 3: While valid in the context of Europe's immediate needs, this

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Speaker 3: argument can also be read as a justification for maintaining

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Speaker 3: production levels in the longer term, even when the broader

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Speaker 3: climate context calls for a rapid transition away from fossil fuels,

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Speaker 3: a transition we've already heard is made all the more

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Speaker 3: difficult if we continue investing in the oil industry. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 3: on the expansion issue, my understanding of what and Catherine's

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Speaker 3: saying is that we shouldn't worry too much, because she

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Speaker 3: argues any such activity isn't about increasing overall use of

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Speaker 3: fossil fuels, but instead about ensuring that there'll be enough

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Speaker 3: to get us through the forthcoming energy transition in line

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Speaker 3: with the projected decline in demand for oil and gas

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Speaker 3: from the likes of Europe and the UK. However, a

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty four report found that if the EU curbs

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Speaker 3: demand in line with its targets, existing oil and gas

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Speaker 3: projects and contracts will be sufficient to meet declining European needs,

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Speaker 3: which means there's no need for more Norwegian oil and gas.

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Speaker 3: But let's hear the final part of and Catherine's response.

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Speaker 5: The main driver in the energy market is the demand

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Speaker 5: for energy. Society needs enough and affordable energy, and to

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Speaker 5: limit the climate crisis, the energy must be as clean

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Speaker 5: as possible, So both UK and THEY asset ambitious targets

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Speaker 5: for transition of their energy mix away from fossil fuels

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Speaker 5: and towards for renewables. But even in the scenarios where

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Speaker 5: they reach their climate goals, they will need more oil

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Speaker 5: and gas than Norway from over prognosis can deliver. So

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Speaker 5: in the case where UK and E need oil and

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Speaker 5: gas as a part of their energy mix, this Shurrado

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Speaker 5: coom from more production in our Way than from other

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Speaker 5: producing countries, and that's also from a climate perspective.

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Speaker 3: Right, So then we're back to the idea that Norway's

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Speaker 3: oil and gas is simply filling the British and European demand,

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Speaker 3: but with the added twist that assumes Norwegian oil and

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Speaker 3: gas will substitute products from other providers based on the

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Speaker 3: logic of it being cleaner. It's a lot to take in,

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Speaker 3: and that's kind of the point. Each of these industry

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Speaker 3: narratives builds on or intertwines with the next, which, according

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Speaker 3: to the industry's critics, complicates any effort required to challenge them.

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Speaker 3: And while the arguments are pretty straightforward, Norwegian oil has

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Speaker 3: a lower production footprint than other imports, replacing coal with

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Speaker 3: gas can reduce emissions, and Europe's current energy situation makes

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Speaker 3: Norwegian supply important. These strategic framings, as are experts of expan,

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Speaker 3: often present partial truths or short term solutions as evidence

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Speaker 3: of alignment with climate goals, but seen through the lens

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Speaker 3: of the oil myths and the petroganda narratives we've heard

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Speaker 3: about from expert observers and voices critical of oil industry rhetoric.

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Speaker 3: Such communication seems to reinforce a story that makes fossil

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Speaker 3: fuels seem necessary, acceptable, and even beneficial, while obscuring broader

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Speaker 3: context and the structural challenges of a full energy transition.

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Speaker 3: So we now have a better understanding of the logic

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Speaker 3: behind the communication coming out of NOI's fossil fuel industry,

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Speaker 3: much of which seems to rest on this idea or

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Speaker 3: myth of climate friendly oil. I was curious to learn

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Speaker 3: more about this, so I asked Cilia ask Lundberg from

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Speaker 3: research and advocacy organization oil Change International for her take.

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Speaker 6: We've had so many different slogans that are connected to

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Speaker 6: how we frame it. It's like, it's the green oil, it's

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Speaker 6: the climate friendly oil. Now it's the democratic oil. So

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Speaker 6: it just keeps on filling it with all of these

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Speaker 6: wonderful words, basically just to be able to continue to

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Speaker 6: say that we should be the last country on Earth

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Speaker 6: to produce oil and gas, which is like the narrative

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Speaker 6: that is being built by the industry, and unfortunately that

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Speaker 6: is accepted by a lot of politicians.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, many politicians, including the Norwegian Minister for Climate and

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Speaker 3: the Environment, have repeated these lines about climate friendly oil,

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Speaker 3: and all of Anakharan's so called myths can be identified

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Speaker 3: in the Norwegian government's recent climate strategy, alongside a number

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Speaker 3: of Drilled media's petroganda narratives discussed in the previous episode.

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Speaker 3: Tocillia's point and echoing an Catherine Vorga from off Shore

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Speaker 3: Norway's position. In an interview with The New York Times,

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Speaker 3: Prime Minister of Norway Jonas Garstura said, I believe that

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Speaker 3: the change here will have to come from the demand side,

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Speaker 3: and it cannot be by having political decisions to cut

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Speaker 3: the supply side. I asked Oslo based author, journalist and

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Speaker 3: climate data expert Catan Joshi what he thinks about this

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Speaker 3: kind of reasoning.

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Speaker 7: Something that's important to note is that countries that supply

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Speaker 7: a large amount of fossil fuels to other places in

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Speaker 7: the world are very emotionally centered on making sure that

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Speaker 7: people burn those fossil fuels. We as a country that

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Speaker 7: supplies fossil fuels, frame ourselves as passive or somewhat neutral.

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Speaker 7: We just happen to have been born on top of

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Speaker 7: a whole bunch of oil and gas, and it's therefore

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Speaker 7: our neutral and unbiased responsibility to pick it up out

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Speaker 7: of the ground and transfer it elsewhere. What happens in

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Speaker 7: reality is that when you are invested in supplying fossil fuels,

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Speaker 7: you will go out of your way to come up

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Speaker 7: with stories and lines of argument that encourage people to

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Speaker 7: burn them. A nice example, of course, has been the

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Speaker 7: energy crisis in Europe. Russia invaded a neighboring country, and

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Speaker 7: as a consequence, a lot of the countries in Europe

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Speaker 7: that buy its gas products decided to try and reduce that.

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Speaker 7: Norway stepped up and said, hey, don't worry about all

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Speaker 7: the electrification and the demand reduction and energy efficiency. Just

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Speaker 7: swap it out with Norwegian gas instead. We can supply

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Speaker 7: it. It's all good. And then we take that argument and

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Speaker 7: say we are providing energy security where the real energy

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Speaker 7: security for Europe would have been reducing reliance on important fuels.

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Speaker 7: And so not only are we compelled to tell the

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Speaker 7: world different ways that they can feel good about burning

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Speaker 7: our products, we feel proud about it. We sort of

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Speaker 7: present it as if we're sort of doing a heroic

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Speaker 7: thing for the rest of the world. This is the

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Speaker 7: headspace of the fossil fuel exporterer. It's a line of

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Speaker 7: argument that allows the maintenance of prolonged fossil fuel extraction.

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Speaker 3: Katan believes that, as we've discussed in the previous episode,

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Speaker 3: Norway's leaders are prone to motivated reasoning, finding any justification

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Speaker 3: they can for continuing business as usual. Along with the

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Speaker 3: personal and political benefits it brings. The so called myths

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Speaker 3: that Anakhar and Satha described, like the idea of climate

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Speaker 3: friendly oil, become particularly powerful in this context. They aren't

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Speaker 3: just stories, they're convenient frames of reference, offering leaders information

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Speaker 3: that allows them to defend the path they're already on board.

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Speaker 3: Land from the University of Oslo's Oil and Society Research

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Speaker 3: Network illustrates how this plays out. He describes how projections

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Speaker 3: of falling oil and gas demand, like the ones Zan

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Speaker 3: Catharine Voger invoked to reassure me that the industry is

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Speaker 3: simply walking at the pace of European needs, can be

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Speaker 3: weaponized by different actors to reinforce the very narratives that

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Speaker 3: keep drilling going.

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Speaker 2: If you look at the projections for future oil and

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Speaker 2: gas production, they show a quite significant decline over the

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Speaker 2: next twenty to thirty years. Those figures are used very

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Speaker 2: differently by different actors in the political scene. So some

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Speaker 2: would point to them and say this, I guest thing

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Speaker 2: is it's not really a problem because it's going to

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Speaker 2: fix itself over time, So why bother discussing phase outdates.

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Speaker 2: But then at the same time, the oil industry and

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Speaker 2: the Ministry of Energy are using those same numbers and

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Speaker 2: forecasts to argue, Look, we need to work to keep

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Speaker 2: production going. We need more exploration, we need tax incentives,

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Speaker 2: we need all of these new things to avoid this decline.

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Speaker 3: Board explains how some actors use these figures to downplay

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Speaker 3: the urgency of policies to curb fossil fuel extraction, while

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Speaker 3: others use them to justify continued exploration and subsidies, ultimately

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Speaker 3: to develop the industry rather than dismantle it, which brings

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Speaker 3: us to the only so called oil myth. We've yet

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Speaker 3: to dig into the idea that the oil industry is

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Speaker 3: vital to enabling the green transition. A key piece of

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Speaker 3: the puzzle here is carbon capture and storage or CCS,

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Speaker 3: the fossil fuel industry's effort to suck CO two out

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Speaker 3: of the air and lock it deep underground. Let's hear

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Speaker 3: from Offshore Norway's climate policy manager again and Catherine Vorga

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Speaker 3: about carbon cap in storage and how it works in practice.

439
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 5: The emissions from the use of both oil and gas

440
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 5: are considerable and Norway has a particular responsibility for these emissions.

441
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 5: I think a good example of Norway taking this responsibility

442
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 5: is Norway's contribution to the development of a value chain

443
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 5: for C two capture and transportation and storage. The Novisian

444
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 5: state has taken a majority of the investments and now

445
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 5: the value chain is in place. CO two is captured

446
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 5: and transported by ships to the Northern Lights receiving terminal,

447
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 5: and then the CO two is transported by pipeline to

448
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 5: a reservoir at a continental shelf and its story two

449
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 5: thousand and six hundred meters under the seabed. Norway has

450
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 5: by this project paved the way for other CEO two

451
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 5: capture and storage projects. The Northern Lights terminal is now

452
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 5: actually expounding its capacity to five million ton z with

453
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 5: finance she'll support from EU, and in addition, several storage

454
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 5: projects are underplanning in Norway. So it's a clear example

455
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 5: on how Norway takes the responsibility for their missions and

456
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: at the same time liverageure or technolological and geographical advantage.

457
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 3: Despite this successful depiction of the Northern Lights project, it

458
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 3: wasn't until several weeks after our conversation that the very

459
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: first volumes of CO two an undisclosed amount, were injected

460
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 3: into the undersea reservoir associated with the initiative, So five

461
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 3: million tons a year. I asked Doan Catherine by when,

462
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 3: to which she answered that it would quote take some time. Indeed,

463
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 3: in always climate and energy circles, ambition often outruns delivery.

464
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 3: Although the country is off track to meet its existing

465
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 3: decarbonization goals, earlier this year, Climate and Environment Minister Andre

466
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: s bl and Eriksson claimed that the most important thing

467
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: Norway could do for the climate was to set even

468
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: higher goals. Ketan Joshi has been following Norway's progress closely.

469
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 3: He's also been analyzing the development of carbon capture and

470
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: storage for several years, and, based on his findings, like

471
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 3: many others, believes this technology serves only to prolong society's

472
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 3: reliance on fossil fuels.

473
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 7: Norway is held up as a global example of ccs' success,

474
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 7: but the percentage of our emissions that CCS avoids keeps

475
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 7: getting smaller and smaller every year. And the reason is

476
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 7: that CCS stays small in the amount that we extract

477
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 7: in cell keeps increasing.

478
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: Katan calls CCS a quote false promise, essentially that the

479
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: idea that a single technology could erase all of our

480
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 3: emissions is so enticing that we cling to it even

481
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: as real progress remains slow. The longer we hold on,

482
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: the more the incumbent powers of the oil and gas

483
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: industry benefit from business as usual, all while the climate

484
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 3: crisis grows more urgent. To me, it seems a bit

485
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: like clinging to a balloon As it rises higher. The

486
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: hope seems real, but the distance to the ground only widens,

487
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 3: and you can only hold on for so long. Despite

488
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 3: the lack of progress, though, Katan notes one benefit Norway

489
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: gains from its work with CCS.

490
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 7: That helps maintain our self image of being a green country.

491
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 3: According to our experts, all these myths are used to

492
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: justify the growth of Norway's oil industry and duplicate its

493
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 3: people into oil positivity while boosting that self image as

494
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: a green country. But critics contend that yet another myth

495
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 3: that Norway needs oil to remain rich and maintain the

496
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 3: welfare system plays a part here too, indeed, and Catherine

497
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: Vorga explained that oil revenues help grow the Oil Fund

498
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 3: for the benefit of the annual state budget and the

499
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: Norwegian welfare system. But here again commentators shed some doubt

500
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: the idea that Norway needs more oil to remain wealthy,

501
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: and according to anakhar And Sather, project manager at the

502
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: Norwegian Climate Foundation, the long stand notion that Norway was

503
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: poor before oil and gas are two of the major

504
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 3: misconceptions Norwegians hold about their wealth. Let's hear more from

505
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: Anna Karn about Norway's economic situation before the oil boom.

506
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 4: I think most Norwegians there are quite aware that we

507
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 4: became richer because of oil and gas, and some people

508
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 4: even think that we were poor before, and that goes

509
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 4: from lots of politicians to the crown princesses and others.

510
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 4: Talking to people abroad or the discussions in Norway is

511
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 4: often about that that the oil and gas revenue kind

512
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 4: of saved us. But that's not really the fact. We

513
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 4: did become richer because of oil and gas, but we

514
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: were already number ten on the list of the richest

515
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 4: countries in the world before we found oil and gas.

516
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 4: We had timber. We had hydropower, shipping, huge marriage sector,

517
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 4: growing industry, lots of other activities that actually made us

518
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 4: fairly rich before we found oil. So that's a problem

519
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: with the perception among most Norwegians, I think, and that

520
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 4: legitimize further exploration. Unfortunately, so in contrast to the mainstream

521
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 4: notion that Norway was poor before it struck oil, Anakaran

522
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 4: claims the country was actually pretty wealthy. The rags to

523
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 4: riches story, though, which ties wonderfully into the sense of

524
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 4: Norway being the clever underdog from those folk tales we

525
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 4: discussed in episode one, is now deeply entrenched and according

526
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 4: to our experts, it shapes people's fears about and even

527
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 4: their inability to consider the end of Norwegian oil and gas.

528
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 4: Let's hear a bit more from Anna Karan and the

529
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 4: gap between the perception and reality of Norwegian wealth. We

530
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 4: did a study among Norwegians and we found that two

531
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 4: out of three think we have to do more exploration

532
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 4: in order to have a proper welfare system. Where our

533
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 4: work now in the Norwich Climate Foundation, we got some

534
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 4: really good economists to do a study for us, and

535
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 4: we ask them what will further exploration for more oil

536
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 4: and gas mean for the welfare system in the years ahead,

537
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 4: and they said, after this long report, not really much,

538
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 4: because we have the oil fund and that will grow

539
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 4: almost no matter what. The oil fund now is just

540
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 4: as much money money as oil money, and we only

541
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 4: take out a few percent each year, so it doesn't

542
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: really matter. They say that the place we would have

543
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 4: been in twenty forty nine, we can be in twenty

544
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 4: fifty when it comes to welfare without further exploration. But

545
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 4: this is a surprise to Norwegians. And when we have

546
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 4: this Semini in Stavangna presenting this study, there was even

547
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 4: one guide saying that I don't believe this number. I

548
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 4: don't believe this study. But that doesn't really matter because

549
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: it's the facts.

550
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 3: To Anakharin's point that Norway doesn't actually need new oil

551
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: revenue to remain wealthy. Yence Stoltenberg, current Norwegian Minister of

552
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 3: Finance and former head of NATO, confirmed in an interview

553
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: with NRK, the National radio that oil money isn't actually

554
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 3: spent at all. He said, quote, I often say, and

555
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 3: many others say, that we use oil money. The truth

556
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 3: is that we don't really spend oil money. We have

557
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,359
Speaker 3: spent zero oil money since two thousand and one. What

558
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 3: we use is financial income, the return of the oil

559
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 3: revenues we have saved, and as long as we stay

560
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: within that then this fund can last forever end quote.

561
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 3: So Norway's wealth isn't at risk even without new oil.

562
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 3: If we reflect on the petroganda narrative of having to

563
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: choose between the economy or the environment, then we see

564
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: how Norwegians may be being presented with a false dilemma. Yet,

565
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: earlier this summer, the Norwegian government opened for the largest

566
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 3: ever offering of potential oil and gas areas, with an

567
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 3: emphasis on the Arctic waters of the Barren Sea. In

568
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 3: the face of such continued expansion of the industry, anakhar

569
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: and Star that explains that whether fossil fuel companies, politicians

570
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: or the Norwegian public want to acknowledge it or not,

571
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 3: rising risks, regulatory pressures and the worsening impacts of climate

572
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,799
Speaker 3: change are coming, and they won't wait for the narratives

573
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: to catch up.

574
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 4: So that are also some facts that they have to

575
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 4: get used to.

576
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, with the growing sense that norways entrenched dependence on

577
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 3: oil and gas is approaching its limits, the question becomes

578
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 3: not if, but how the country will navigate this challenge.

579
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 2: Much of the political approach at the moment is to

580
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 2: just keep saying that we want to develop the industry,

581
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: we want to maintain it into the future.

582
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 3: That's Bored Land from the University of Oslo, again reflecting

583
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 3: on politicians' reluctance to prepare for the end of Norwegian

584
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 3: oil and gas.

585
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: That's problematic whether it succeeds or not, because if it succeeds,

586
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: it's of course prolonging the oil age, and that's problematic

587
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: for climate reasons. If it doesn't succeed, then we're kind

588
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: of fooling ourselves into not dealing with the problems that

589
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 2: we're facing when this industry is declining. One thing that

590
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 2: would help a lot would be to get a more

591
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: widespread acceptance that we are nearing the end of the

592
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 2: Norwegian oil and gas age, that we are on a

593
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: declining path.

594
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 3: Board argues that if efforts to sustain production succeed, it

595
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 3: extends the oil age, harming the climate, while if they fail,

596
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: it delays confronting the challenges of a declining industry. He

597
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 3: suggests a more realistic acknowledgment of this decline would shift

598
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 3: policy towards managing a planned phase out of the industry

599
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: rather than trying to maintain it indefinitely.

600
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: We need a strategy for the final phase of the

601
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: region oil and gas production.

602
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: A clear strategy could not only guide noway through this shift,

603
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 3: but also help prepare the oil industry workforce for the future.

604
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 3: As we noted in the first episode, many Norwegians personally

605
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 3: know people working in the industry, and commentators point out

606
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 3: that one of the industry's regular defenses against phasing out

607
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 3: operations is the perceived size of the workforce and the

608
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 3: number of jobs that could be lost. To explore this issue,

609
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,879
Speaker 3: let's hear from Cillia ask Lundberg from Oil Change International.

610
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 6: For those people working there, that of course will be

611
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 6: a very big thing, but that is not an excuse

612
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 6: to not do anything, and you can meet that if

613
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 6: you plan for it. You can meet that with policies

614
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 6: so you can shift them or transition them into other jobs.

615
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 6: But one of their old big issues in Norway is

616
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 6: that there is no will to try to plan for this,

617
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 6: or to even try to start imagining a world without

618
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 6: out continued Norwegian oil and gas production.

619
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,000
Speaker 3: Interestingly, in connection with the oil price drop between twenty

620
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 3: fourteen and twenty sixteen, many thousands of workers left the

621
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 3: Norwegian oil industry, but according to Christopher Berger, senior advisor

622
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 3: at Statistics Norway, most found jobs in other sectors within

623
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: a year. My understanding then is that a well managed

624
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 3: transition could ease the impact on the workforce. Yet with

625
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 3: little planning for a final phase of oil and gas,

626
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 3: the government risks failing the very people as long celebrated

627
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: as heroes. Meanwhile, public opinion is moving ahead of politicians.

628
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: Sillier notes that polls show how Norwegians are increasingly supportive

629
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: of measures to limit fossil fuel expansion, a shift that

630
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: leaves policymakers.

631
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 7: Playing catch up.

632
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 6: We are seeing that that realization is beginning to happen

633
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 6: to more and more Norwegians, more and more borders are

634
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 6: starting to ask for more restrictive policy for the oil

635
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 6: and gas industry.

636
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 3: Cilia shared that according to recent polling, more than half

637
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: of Norwegian voters are against oil and gas production in

638
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,280
Speaker 3: areas that are important for the fishing industry and against

639
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 3: oil and gas production in Arctic waters, and even believes

640
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 3: that Norway should stop looking for more oil and gas.

641
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 3: Despite this rising public opposition to new oil and gas activities,

642
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,439
Speaker 3: especially in sensitive Arctic areas like the Barren Sea, which

643
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: we just heard was central to the recent government exploration offering,

644
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: the government continues to push for expansion.

645
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 6: The major obstacle in Norway are the major political parties.

646
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 6: If you look at the Labor Party, the Conservative Parties

647
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 6: and the Progress Party, those three parties are very much

648
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 6: a favor of continuing to explore for more oil and gas,

649
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 6: so they are at odds with the majority of Norwegian borders.

650
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 3: Cilia believes the issue is Norway's politicians, who she claims

651
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 3: remain under the spell of the industry.

652
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 6: I think this shows how strong a grip the oil

653
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 6: and gas industry have over Norwegian politics and how implemented

654
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 6: those narratives that we've been talking about are also in

655
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 6: the minds of the politicians. Europe needs energy now, but

656
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 6: Europe is on a path of getting rid of their gas.

657
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 6: They're starting with the Russian gas, but they're not ending there.

658
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 6: Norway is now planning on expanding and producing way more

659
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 6: than what the EU is asking for.

660
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: Just as bord Lain explained earlier, Cilia shares how Norway's

661
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: political leaders are incapable of even addressing the idea of

662
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 3: a Norway after oil, fixated instead on the rhetoric of

663
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 3: the industry, much of which we've heard throughout this and

664
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: the previous episode.

665
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 6: If you try to talk to a labor politician or

666
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,720
Speaker 6: a conservative politician about trying to plan for Norway post oil,

667
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 6: the conversation just stops. They are not interested at all,

668
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 6: and I think what drives them is fear. They are

669
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 6: afraid because that would mean that they do something a

670
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 6: bit new and unheard of in Norway, which is stand

671
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 6: up to the oil and gas industry. So then it's

672
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 6: easier to just do nothing.

673
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 3: According to Cilia, the disconnect between political decisions and the

674
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 3: majority of view is not only frustrating for a growing

675
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: number of citizens, it's also affecting how Norway is perceived internationally.

676
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 6: When you have international criticism of Norway asa oil and

677
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 6: Gas major, if the Financial Times write about it or

678
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 6: the Guardian, that ends up being headline used in Norway

679
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 6: as well in terms of like, wow, we're getting criticized.

680
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 6: Governments in other nations have been very afraid to criticize

681
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 6: governments like Norway, but it looks like that might be

682
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 6: starting to shift a bit.

683
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 3: Governments of other countries might be warming up to the

684
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 3: idea of criticizing Norway, but citizens around the world are

685
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: already on the case. Campaigns like Fight for the Bite

686
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 3: in Australia mobilized thousands against Quinor's plans to drill in

687
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 3: a highly sensitive marine area, attracting international media attention and

688
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 3: ultimately prompting the company to withdraw. Similarly, the Stop Willow

689
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 3: campaign in Canada has sought to halt Equinor's development of

690
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 3: oil in Arctic waters, raising concerns over environmental impact and

691
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: indigenous rights, and in the UK, the ongoing Stop Rosebank

692
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: campaign challenges Equinor's plans to exploit the country's largest undeveloped

693
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 3: oil field. While outrage from the energy town game discussed

694
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 3: in the previous episode only adds to the negativity, these

695
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 3: high profile campaigns and criticisms call out both Equinor and

696
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: Norway directly, increasingly framing the country as a climate offender

697
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: rather than a climate leader. Anakhar and Satha from the

698
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: Norwegian Climate Foundation agrees that Nou's reputation in the international

699
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 3: scene is suffering.

700
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 4: I think our reputation has gotten pretty much worse, especially

701
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 4: since Russian full scale invasion of Ukraine in two thousand

702
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 4: and twenty two, because now people start talking, at least

703
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 4: in Brussels and EU countries, that we have been profiting

704
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 4: from the war and the high gas prices, and when

705
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 4: people in Europe they've had an energy price crisis and

706
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 4: someone took those money that they have been paying out

707
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 4: of their pockets and that was us. So we're not

708
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 4: that big a hero any longer, I think.

709
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 3: As Norway faces scrutiny on the international stage in response

710
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 3: to Equinor's activities, the government and industry often respond by

711
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: emphasizing the careful planning, strategy and adherence to facts that

712
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 3: underpin their actions. Framing their conduct in this way ensures

713
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: it appears rational and evidence based, even as critics point

714
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 3: to the widening gap between words and outcomes. And Catherine

715
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: Vorga from Offshore Norway reflects this approach, highlighting the importance

716
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 3: of grounding decisions in evidence and demonstrating tangible action.

717
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 5: That laws, regulations and policies are established based on facts

718
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 5: and the deep understanding of the different aspects and the consequences.

719
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 5: For me, it's the most important thing is actually what

720
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 5: we do and to demonstrate what we do, to have

721
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 5: a clear strategy and set the clear targets. And that's

722
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 5: why we have a strategy on a climate target now

723
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 5: to reduce the emissions, but also to contribute to more

724
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 5: offshore bind and reduce emission from the use of oil

725
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 5: and gas. So for me, in my position, the most

726
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 5: important thing is the actions.

727
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: Yet after listening to the wider picture, Norway is ongoing

728
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 3: oil expansion, growing public opinion against new drilling, international campaigns

729
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 3: calling out the country and its flagship companies, the glacial

730
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: progress of technological solutions like CCS and blue hydrogen, and

731
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 3: rollbacks of offshore wind targets by the industry's biggest players.

732
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 3: We have to ask whether tangible action is really taking

733
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: place here. But the real question, according to Catan Joshi,

734
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 3: is not where the plans exist or targets are set.

735
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: It's where the Norway is actually showing ambition, honesty and

736
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 3: giving its absolute best effort to achieve real world impact.

737
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 3: For him, climate credibility isn't a technical exercise. It's a

738
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 3: test of a country's metal, its intent, and its integrity

739
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 3: on the global stage.

740
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 7: There's been a really loud and somewhat nervous debate in

741
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 7: the climate community around targets. A country will set a

742
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 7: target and they kind of have to nominate what level

743
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 7: of the world heating up that they're aiming for, even

744
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 7: though the country alone doesn't decide it. You have to

745
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 7: kind of figure out the future that you're aligned to.

746
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 7: And what happened is in twenty fifteen around the Paris

747
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 7: Climate Agreement, a lot of country is decided that they

748
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 7: wanted to align with a planet that heats by one

749
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 7: point five degrees relative to what it was before the

750
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:03,400
Speaker 7: industrial age, and this was sort of calculated as being

751
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 7: the highest ambition that you could have based on what

752
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 7: we knew at the time. In twenty fifteen, it's very

753
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 7: likely that we're going to pass that target level, and

754
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 7: there's been this almost anxious debate about what the next

755
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 7: number is going to be. Do we kind of just

756
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 7: do like a point five increment and go to two.

757
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 7: I like one point five zero one myself, But it's

758
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 7: a silly debate. What was really trying to be expressed there,

759
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 7: And when you go back and look at the statements

760
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 7: from the nations, particularly the small island Pacific Nations, that

761
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 7: were the ones pushing for that target. Is they weren't

762
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 7: talking about a number. They were talking about the strength

763
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 7: and the will of action and the need to protect

764
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 7: human survival. They don't talk about emissions and global atmospheric modeling.

765
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 7: They were talking about something much more material, which is

766
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 7: whether or not people are trying their hardest to reduce emissions.

767
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 7: Is the line going up or is it going down?

768
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 7: Actually need to look at a country and determine whether

769
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 7: it has that feeling in its heart, is it actually

770
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 7: trying as hard as it possibly can to reduce emissions?

771
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 7: And you can actually determine this type of thing. Are

772
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 7: they cheating, are they using tricks? Are they being honest?

773
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 7: Are they being transparent? Are they taking risks? Are they

774
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 7: actually having successes that are surprising? All of these things,

775
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,480
Speaker 7: With time and effort, you can cage and determine. It

776
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:31,280
Speaker 7: takes accountability into this completely different space, a very emotional space.

777
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 7: But I think it's actually really important. And you compare

778
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 7: that with all of the calculations and the charts that

779
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 7: you want, right, because that's what I do, is that

780
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 7: I like doing, but I like to pair it with

781
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 7: an assessment of whether or not the hardest effort is

782
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 7: being applied.

783
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: To the problem, With politicians openly discussing the irrelevance of

784
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 3: oil to always continued wealth, failing to align with a

785
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: growing public discontent with fossil fuel activities, missing targets for

786
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 3: domestic climate measures, and bringing no clear strategy for the

787
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 3: final phase of Norwegian oil and gas to the table.

788
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: It raises serious questions about whether the Norway's leaders are

789
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 3: responding effectively to the concerns and long term interests of

790
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 3: their citizens. Reflecting on Catan's question, is the hardest effort

791
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: being applied to the problem in Norway's case, the evidence

792
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: seems to suggest that the answer is known. In this episode,

793
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 3: we tested the stories and the rhetoric against the facts.

794
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 3: What did we learn well? For starters, Norway wasn't poor

795
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 3: before oil and gas and is unlikely to be poor

796
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: after it. We heard how what might sound like common sense,

797
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 3: climate friendly oil colld to gas substitution economic and energy

798
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 3: security unravels under scrutiny, exposing strategies that risk driving fossil

799
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 3: fuel dependence for decades, and that while the industry promotes

800
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 3: actions over ambitions, it also puts its faith in as

801
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 3: yet unproven technologies to justify its worldview, which is then

802
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 3: amplified by Norway's politicians acting against the wishes of the

803
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 3: public majority. But these lines aren't just rhetoric in isolation.

804
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 3: Our experts argue that they provide the underlying logic that

805
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: politicians and the industry rely on to defend continued oil production.

806
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 3: They shape public understanding, influence policy debates, and reinforce the

807
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,279
Speaker 3: idea that Norway can be both a major fossil fuel

808
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 3: producer and a climate leader, a paradox that continues to

809
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 3: guide communication strategies and political decision making. Next time, in

810
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 3: the final episode of The Black Thread, we'll look forward

811
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 3: into Norway's future. We'll explore the pressing need for imagining

812
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 3: how Norway and its people could support a truly green

813
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 3: and just energy transition, to create spaces for genuine, good

814
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 3: faith discussions about oil and climate, to realign the nation's

815
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 3: actions with its values, and potentially safeguard its international reputation

816
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 3: on climate related issues before it's too late. Thanks for listening,

817
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 3: and catch you next time. The Black Thread is a

818
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 3: collaboration between Communicating Climate Change and Klimaculetur. It was written

819
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 3: and narrated by dickon Bonvicstone produced and edited by lever

820
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:14,760
Speaker 3: Solid Schulearud and the executive producer was vigdis Bonvickstone artwork

821
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 3: is by Anya Jimushkevich. For more information see the show

822
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 3: notes