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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to It could happen here. It's

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Speaker 1: Schreen and today I'm joined by James and Robert to

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Speaker 1: welcome our guest. In this episode, we are joined by

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Speaker 1: Adam Brumberg. He is an artist, an activist and an educator.

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Speaker 1: He was born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa. His

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Speaker 1: parents and his entire extended family are Holocaust survivors, and

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Speaker 1: he had a very Zionist upbringing. We talked to him

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Speaker 1: about how he grew up in apart Height, South Africa,

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Speaker 1: how he broke free from Zionism as a teenager, and

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Speaker 1: how he's come to be a very vocal Jewish anti Zionist.

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Speaker 1: He currently lives and works in Berlin, and he's exhibited

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Speaker 1: his art all over the world. He's also regularly on

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Speaker 1: the ground in Palestine and he uses his work to

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Speaker 1: raise awareness about the crimes committed daily by the IDF.

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Speaker 1: Members of the German government have accused him and labeled

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Speaker 1: him as being anti Semitic because of his criticism of Israel.

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Speaker 1: And we're going to get into all of it. I

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Speaker 1: wanted so just go back into your background a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Your family on both sides are Holocaust survivors and your

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Speaker 1: answertors like fled to South Africa and that's where you

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Speaker 1: grew up with your parents. And I read that you

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Speaker 1: went to as I in the school starting from age six.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about your family background and your

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Speaker 1: experience going to as I in a school as a

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Speaker 1: Jewish person.

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Speaker 2: So you remember the podcast you did about Lithuania and

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Speaker 2: that particular character who was from the pale who had

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Speaker 2: to flee from the pogroms and all that stuff. So

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Speaker 2: basically this is part three.

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Speaker 3: What he's talking about here is the Spanish Civil War,

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Speaker 3: specifically about an episode we did more than a year ago.

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Speaker 3: As many of thirty percent of the fallen volunteers who

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Speaker 3: fought in some units in Spain were Jewish. Some of them,

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Speaker 3: like I'll shake In, who have written about a lot,

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Speaker 3: had fled persecution in the pair of Settlement at a

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Speaker 3: very young age and arrived in the USA to relative safety.

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Speaker 3: But after a few years in the USA, they began

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Speaker 3: to he's a menace of anti Semitism spreading back towards

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Speaker 3: them through Nazi Germany and laid through fashed Italy, and

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Speaker 3: they decided to take up arms and stop it. When

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Speaker 3: it threatened to overwhelm Democratic Spain.

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Speaker 2: Imagine that kid gets on a boat, and that kid

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Speaker 2: is my grandfather. My grandfather's name is Joshua, right, and

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Speaker 2: he's like a towering six foot three, beautiful man. He's

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Speaker 2: studying medicine. He's fleeing his mother. His family is not wealthy,

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Speaker 2: the programs are going on. He's studying medicine. Very bright guy,

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Speaker 2: but every cell in his body says, you've got to

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Speaker 2: get out of here. Also, also he gets this opportunity,

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Speaker 2: meets a woman called Dora Clatch girl, my grandmother, who's

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Speaker 2: like four foot two, right, but comes from a very

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Speaker 2: wealthy family in Lithuania. And it's kind of an arranged

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Speaker 2: set up, and I think Joshua is paid. Anyway, they

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Speaker 2: get on a boat bound for South Africa. Some landed

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Speaker 2: up in Scotland or oddly because the boat bound for America.

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Speaker 2: They would they would disembark most of the all of

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Speaker 2: the people on board and tell them they were in

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Speaker 2: America and then take a whole lot of other people

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Speaker 2: and then carry on to America so they could double

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Speaker 2: the fee by the way. But anyway, my so Joshua

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Speaker 2: and Dora land up on the boat and they land

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Speaker 2: in the port of Durban. It's around nineteen thirty three.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, and they speak mostly Yiddish. They've never

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Speaker 2: seen a black person in their life. They land up,

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Speaker 2: you know, on these foreign shows. My grandmother, I think,

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Speaker 2: headed towards Johannesburg, and this I got from my mother

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Speaker 2: on her deathbed. My mom passed away December seventeenth last year,

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Speaker 2: so it's like six seven months ago, and you know,

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Speaker 2: she'd like she did it magnificently and she managed to

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Speaker 2: like tell those last little bits of stories. And one

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Speaker 2: of those was that her mother, Dora, had had a

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Speaker 2: child who died at nine months old, and she was

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Speaker 2: Aknon in Johannesburg when the child died, and Joshua, her husband,

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Speaker 2: was still in the So you can imagine the kind

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Speaker 2: of the weirdness of that, right, I mean imagine your

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Speaker 2: imagine your the father of your child not not coming

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Speaker 2: to be with you when you lose your child. Coupled

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Speaker 2: with the fact that they had both lost I think Dora,

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Speaker 2: my grandmother, was one of eight or nine children. I

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Speaker 2: think only three survived the Holocaust and her parents were killed,

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Speaker 2: and the same with Joshua, so they lost all their

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Speaker 2: family and there they were at the bottom tip of Africa,

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Speaker 2: right without without any kind of orientation.

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Speaker 1: Really, yeah, can you talk a little bit about you

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Speaker 1: mentioned how you describe it as bottom feeders. I listened

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Speaker 1: to another podcast you were on UH and you said

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Speaker 1: that they your family suddenly really enjoyed and appreciated the

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Speaker 1: change and status they had in society. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: about that a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so, you know, they got on the boat

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Speaker 2: as and their identity we were were they were Jews.

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Speaker 2: So they were expelled from Europe as Jews. The minute

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Speaker 2: they toes touched the land in Africa, their identity transformed

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Speaker 2: from being Jewish to being white, right right, just suddenly

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Speaker 2: they were they were identified as white people. Like the

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Speaker 2: word the word jew almost like just fell off, you know,

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Speaker 2: that that yellow star that they had to wear, it

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Speaker 2: just fell off. So suddenly they were like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: they were like utterly privileged, powerful and and in control.

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Speaker 2: Right and with all of the with all of the

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Speaker 2: corruption that apartheid provided for the elite, for the white,

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Speaker 2: for the white supremacist, for the white the white people,

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Speaker 2: that the Jews who arrived were able to plug into

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Speaker 2: that privilege and there was about two hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: three hundred thousand Jews who fled and arrived in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: So it was quite a big community and they did

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Speaker 2: ver fucking well. Let me tell you, and I can

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Speaker 2: tell you why. I can tell you because my father,

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Speaker 2: who just saw about three days ago what's left of him.

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Speaker 2: When he was active and like potent he was, he

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Speaker 2: was the top tax lawyer in South Africa, which means

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Speaker 2: that his clients, and those clients are people who walk

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Speaker 2: through my house. Came through my house in the seventies

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Speaker 2: and the eighties were probably the most hideous characters in history.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're talking soul Kurzner. Sol Curzner started something

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Speaker 2: called Sun's City and he exploited the buntus fand the

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Speaker 2: homeland system that apartheid built, and he built this casino

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Speaker 2: hotel resort called Sun's City.

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Speaker 1: At this point in our conversation with Adam, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask about his personal journey into anti Zionism and

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Speaker 1: where it all began.

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Speaker 3: So I think an interesting way to approach this end

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Speaker 3: would be like, obviously they found themselves and your parents

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Speaker 3: have found themselves in this country, which is systematically discriminating

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Speaker 3: against people, right, this is apartheid South Africa, and Jewish

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Speaker 3: people were at once active in the anti apartment movement,

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Speaker 3: and as you're saying, also active in the apartheid government

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Speaker 3: and the apartheid regime. And you found yourself, I guess,

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Speaker 3: going to this school which was explicitly Zionist. And I'm wondering,

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Speaker 3: at what point, And I suppose this involves seeing what's

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Speaker 3: happening where you are as well as what's happening in Palestine,

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Speaker 3: at what point did you make that connection and be

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Speaker 3: like her this this like what what? Because you're you're

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Speaker 3: a very explicitly anti Zionist, right, Like it's what was it?

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Speaker 3: Something you read, something you saw, like what caused you

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Speaker 3: to make that leap? And how was that received in

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Speaker 3: South Africa?

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Speaker 2: So I think it's a mixture of things. I think

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Speaker 2: I've got three older siblings, so I'm the last born

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Speaker 2: by seven years. I've got a brother Paul, seven years older,

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Speaker 2: sister Man he was nine years older who lives in Israel,

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Speaker 2: and an old My oldest brother, Jonathan is ten years

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Speaker 2: older than me. Jonathan and Paul. Paul specifically was very

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Speaker 2: politically active, so he started an organization unlike Israel, so

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Speaker 2: that in South Africa the universities were like the bastions

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Speaker 2: of the anti apartype movement. Right, and he was in

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Speaker 2: a new sas National Union of South African Students, and

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Speaker 2: he started to think called the End Conscription Campaign, which

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Speaker 2: was to fight against forced conscription of white men who

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Speaker 2: were compulsory called up into the army at the age

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Speaker 2: of eighteen. And so given the fact that he was

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Speaker 2: seven years older when I hit about fourteen or fifteen,

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Speaker 2: at fifteen, I went on a thin called oh pun

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Speaker 2: which is kind of you've heard of birthright right or

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Speaker 2: pun is something. So I went to the Zionist Jewish

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Speaker 2: day school. So every day i'd go, I'd have to pray,

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Speaker 2: like go into the synagogue, pretend to pray for about

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Speaker 2: an hour, right, And I was looking at my school,

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Speaker 2: like my sister is like a gorgeous archivist, and she

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Speaker 2: made this little book called Adam's Life, and I was

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Speaker 2: looking at the school grades at the age of six,

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Speaker 2: and it was like Jewish studies and we know what

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Speaker 2: those Jewish studies were, right, So you walked into the

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Speaker 2: Jewish studies room and there was a little blue tint

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Speaker 2: which was the Jewish National Fund, and you would put

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Speaker 2: your spare change in there, and that money would go

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Speaker 2: towards making the desert bloom I say, in like work marks, right,

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Speaker 2: So that was that money would go to plants in

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Speaker 2: like two hundred and forty million pine trees in you know,

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Speaker 2: which I'm not indigenous in Israel. But just to swing back.

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Speaker 2: So at about fourteen or fifteen, what happened is, in

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Speaker 2: parallel I was being told on a daily basis two

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Speaker 2: things I was being told. Now, you've got to remember

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Speaker 2: this was the heights of also the Cold War. So

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Speaker 2: there were these proxy wars that were being fought all

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Speaker 2: around South Africa, in Angola, in Mozambique. So in Mozambique

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Speaker 2: you had fre Limo who were backed up by Cuba, Russia, right,

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Speaker 2: you had you had Rhanamo that were backed up by

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Speaker 2: America and South Africa, and they were running these kind

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Speaker 2: of gorilla bush wars, right. And many of my friends

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Speaker 2: who were called up in the military would be flown

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Speaker 2: into Angola or into Mozambik. We dropped there and you know,

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Speaker 2: they were told, look, if something happens, you weren't here,

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Speaker 2: Well you're not there, you know, We're not going to

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Speaker 2: come and find you.

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Speaker 3: What I'm referring to here are the proxy conflicts throughout

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Speaker 3: Africa that saw national liberation movements, often supported by Cuba

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Speaker 3: and the USSR, fighting against various last class colonial regimes

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Speaker 3: and African anti communist groups. These groups are often supported

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Speaker 3: by the US under the guise of anti communism. These

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Speaker 3: wars include the Civil War in Angola, the Namibian War

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Speaker 3: of Independence, some of those, Ambiquean War of Independence, and

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Speaker 3: the zimbabwe War of Independence. You might know the last

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Speaker 3: one as a Rhodesian bush war, but Rhodesia doesn't exist anymore.

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Speaker 3: Living in the United States, it's easy to use the

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Speaker 3: phrase cold war as a conflict free standoff mediated by

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Speaker 3: nuclear powers chess something without acknowledging that in many parts

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Speaker 3: of the world, proxy wars in these post colonial states

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Speaker 3: and the conflicts of decolonialization throughout the late twentieth century

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Speaker 3: made that period anything but cold.

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Speaker 2: The point is is that, so at the age of fourteen,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to these schools and I'm being told every

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Speaker 2: day that if apartheid ended, that would mean the end

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Speaker 2: of the white people in South Africa, right because we

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Speaker 2: were by far the minority. White people were by far

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Speaker 2: the minority, I don't know what it was, ten twelve percent,

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Speaker 2: And there was this kind of you could see the

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Speaker 2: fear because the walls started getting higher, the security gates

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Speaker 2: were built, the razor wire, the electric fences, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was it became more increasingly visible in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: the fear keeping apart tight, keeping people apart. So I

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Speaker 2: was told all the time, like if apartheid ended, that

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Speaker 2: would mean the end of white people. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: I was told, given that my community was like second

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Speaker 2: generation Holocaust surviving, you know, the notion of Israel as

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Speaker 2: a place of salvation, a place of when the ship

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Speaker 2: hits the fag, that's where we can go, right, and

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Speaker 2: that what we're always told that. And we were also

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Speaker 2: told daily this is a land without people, for a

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Speaker 2: pupil without land. That became a kind of mantra. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: it was like it was said to me over and

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Speaker 2: over again. Right. So, but when and what started happening

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Speaker 2: is I think that I became an activist at the

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Speaker 2: age of sixteen. There's an amazing she's now a dear

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Speaker 2: friend of mine. We've reconnected. She's a theater director called

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Speaker 2: yah el Faber, and we started an organization called Lin

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Speaker 2: the Age of sixteen, which was to educate white kids

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Speaker 2: about apartheid. And what we started to do was to

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Speaker 2: literally kind of break the apartheid wall. We'd start doing

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Speaker 2: visits into Souweta, we'd start doing visits into Alexandria township,

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Speaker 2: and we started forming friendships. And you know, most kids

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Speaker 2: just didn't go out of the suburbs. And suddenly we'd

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Speaker 2: go away on these weekends, like led by kind of

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Speaker 2: older activists, and we'd all hang in the same you know,

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Speaker 2: we'd all sleep in the same dormitories, and we'd start chatting,

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Speaker 2: chatting and smoking cigarettes together, and so like genuine just

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Speaker 2: basic childhood friendships started for me. And when that stuff

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Speaker 2: that profound very successful. Other ring that the propaganda of

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Speaker 2: apartheid succeeded in creating, you know, the black person as

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Speaker 2: the other, as the enemy, which it does in Israel,

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Speaker 2: right on the other side of the apartheid wall is

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Speaker 2: the worst enemy your imagination could possibly conjure, up right,

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Speaker 2: And it's exactly the same process. And suddenly, when I

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Speaker 2: kind of pierced that wall and that started falling apart,

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Speaker 2: then the kind of ideology around Israel and the notion

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Speaker 2: that Palestinians didn't exist. Suddenly they started to exist for

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Speaker 2: me somehow. And so it was about around the age

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Speaker 2: of sixteen, I'd say.

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Speaker 3: And it was It's interesting that it was like through

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Speaker 3: your experience of living in an apartheid state that you

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Speaker 3: were able to, I think appreciate that, like that what

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Speaker 3: was happening to the Palestinian people was like another form

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Speaker 3: of settle colonialism.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think, yeah, like none of this, none

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Speaker 2: of this is intellectual. So I think like everything that

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Speaker 2: came to me or has driven to me is lucky

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Speaker 2: is through lived experience. It really is. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's like through these friendships that I realized and you know,

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Speaker 2: like touching, touching skin. And this is one of this

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Speaker 2: is the difference between a Partheit South African Apartheit Israel

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Speaker 2: Palestine is that we were segregated by law, you know,

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Speaker 2: I mean, mixed marriages were prohibited by law, sex was

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Speaker 2: prohibited between races. But the thing is that we were

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Speaker 2: mixed together because the labor force was needed, right, So,

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Speaker 2: like you know, the nineteen sixteen Tax Act forced a

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Speaker 2: lot of black migrant male workers into the cities to

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Speaker 2: work on the gold mines, which meant that there was

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Speaker 2: the presence of the other amongst us. And because there

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Speaker 2: was the presence of the other, the other, there was

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Speaker 2: also the desire and it is a sexual desire or

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Speaker 2: essential desire, and the smells, and we would touch each other,

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Speaker 2: and we would walk through the city and kind of

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Speaker 2: rub up against each other. Now, my nieces and nephews

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Speaker 2: having grown up the under under the inter father and

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Speaker 2: because of the Apartheid War, they've been deprived of that

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Speaker 2: sensual experience.

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Speaker 1: Of the other in Palestine Israel.

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Speaker 2: You mean in Palestine Israel. Yeah, so that you know

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Speaker 2: they've built they've built this twelve foot there's twelve foot,

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Speaker 2: seven hundred kilometer long concrete tsunami of a war that

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Speaker 2: divides people, which means that you know, until recently, nobody

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Speaker 2: uttered the word Palestinian because they didn't exist, right, And

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Speaker 2: so for my nieces and nephews, what was on the

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Speaker 2: other side of that wall was, like I said, their

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Speaker 2: worst the worst enemy that their imagination could conjure up.

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Speaker 2: And children's imaginations are amazing, right, And I did say

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Speaker 2: this a while back where where you know how for

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Speaker 2: cos spoke about he spoke about the structures that were

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Speaker 2: built around the plague, and after the plague ended, he

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Speaker 2: was still left with these structures. Right now, let's think

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Speaker 2: about the apartheid wall. You've got the seven hundred kilometers

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Speaker 2: a long, massive like concrete thing. It goes like five

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Speaker 2: meters underground. Yeah. Now, unlike for cose hypothesis that war

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Speaker 2: has created the plague, that war has created the enemy,

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Speaker 2: because what's on the other side of that wall, that's

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Speaker 2: only that's only accessible through these little checkpoints that are

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Speaker 2: manned by these you know, poor teenage like little foot

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Speaker 2: soldiers of the state. That's the that's the only way

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Speaker 2: to penetrate that war. So on the other side of

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Speaker 2: that wall is whatever you tell the people is there,

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Speaker 2: and and that's the that's the horror of that situation.

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Speaker 1: I actually, I'm kind of glad you brought up the

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Speaker 1: plague idea because you mentioned that on a different podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it was really like poetic to illustrate

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Speaker 1: that a plague can be constructed by the structure versus

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Speaker 1: actually the plague.

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Speaker 4: And it's it's also kind of worth noting, you know,

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Speaker 4: as you were talking about the restrictions on interracial marriage,

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Speaker 4: in South Africa. Versions of that very much still exist

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Speaker 4: to this day in Israel, including heavy restrictions on inner

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Speaker 4: marriage between Israeli and Palestinian people. You know that that's

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Speaker 4: a bigger topic than I want to just kind of

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Speaker 4: casually get into it. Like there's a number of restrictions

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Speaker 4: that exist into the present day because like civil marriage

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Speaker 4: is not really a thing there as it is in

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Speaker 4: a lot of other countries.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I wonder, like you said that Palestinian people

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Speaker 3: existed in your childhood only as this sort of construct, right,

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Speaker 3: this other construct and your experience of black people in

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Speaker 3: South Africa has shown you that those other constructs were

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Speaker 3: false and misleading and served perhaps an agenda when you

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Speaker 3: decided that, like your stance was anti Zionism, and then

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Speaker 3: you said to your I'm guessing, to your friends, your family,

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Speaker 3: to your fellow children at the school, like, hey, this

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Speaker 3: is fucked up here and this is fucked up there too.

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Speaker 3: How was the response.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like, you know, one doesn't come to these

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Speaker 2: decisions of a na and like announce it right, right.

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Speaker 2: So there's vague memories I have, Like, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I was on that all pun trip, which is like

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Speaker 2: this three week or three month trip. I mean they said,

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Speaker 2: like one hundred and fifteen year old kids, you live

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Speaker 2: in a in a building in Jerusalem, and it's basically

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Speaker 2: like this three month propaganda tour. Right, You're given a

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Speaker 2: Bible and you're told that that's your guidebook. Literally you

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Speaker 2: like you traverse, you traverse this place following the stories

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Speaker 2: of the Bible, and that's meant to be like your

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Speaker 2: holy land. But I did have one of the it's

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Speaker 2: called a Madrich, I think, a teacher. He was he

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Speaker 2: must have been eighteen or nineteen. He happened to be

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Speaker 2: kind of like a vaguely liberal Zionist. And I remember

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Speaker 2: clearly him taking me to an anti Kahani protest, so

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Speaker 2: there was still like Maya Kahane was alive, and we

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Speaker 2: know that Mayogahni. You know, the Corness movement, as you know,

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Speaker 2: was a kind of you know, they spawned the ben

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Speaker 2: Geviers and these fascists who are in power now, but

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Speaker 2: at the time they were deemed a terrorist organization by America.

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Speaker 2: And and I remember going to an anti Kahani protest,

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Speaker 2: So somehow that planted a little seed in me, and

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Speaker 2: I guess, you know, I think the anti Zionism came

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Speaker 2: afterwards because I was so focused on the anti apartheid

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Speaker 2: struggle because that's where I was and that's what I

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Speaker 2: was doing. And my university was either spent like running

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Speaker 2: battles with riot police or smoking weed. And I literally

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Speaker 2: went to about three classes. Honestly, I was definitely the

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Speaker 2: odd one out in my school. I mean, you know it,

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Speaker 2: being a Zionist Jewish die school. I'm still you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm still probably perceived as lack an absolute fucking avarration.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you did describe your mother in one podcast as

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Speaker 1: as diehard Zionist, and so I can only imagine. And

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Speaker 1: you you mentioned your nephew and her husband both were

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Speaker 1: in the IDF, so I can only imagine. I think

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Speaker 1: it's good to bring up that despite all of that,

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Speaker 1: you were able to like think deeply about it and

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Speaker 1: work your way out of that brainwashing. Essentially, before I

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Speaker 1: get too carried away, let's take our first break. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back, b RB, and we're back. I want

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Speaker 1: to talk now about your experience in Germany and how

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Speaker 1: you experienced like state level accusations of being an anti

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Speaker 1: Semitic person even though you're just a vocal Jewish antixionist.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about what led this person? I didn't

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Speaker 1: even though this person existed. Stefan Hensel, who is the

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Speaker 1: anti Semitism Commissioner of the City of Hamburg. That's a

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Speaker 1: position someone has, But what led him to call you?

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Speaker 1: These really atrocious things in so many newspapers and like

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Speaker 1: basically like justlist and libelist stuff.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so check it out. So my mom dies seventeenth

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Speaker 2: of December. Yeah, I go away to a yoga retreat

379
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Speaker 2: where there's there's Lola coverage. I'm like, I'm offline. I

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Speaker 2: get back to and there's emails from like people are

381
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 2: ready trust you know, and and serious people in my

382
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: life saying, you know, dude, you've got to respond to

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00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: these allegations that are in like de zeight Billin and

384
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 2: zeol Tad's you know, basically every major newspaper in Germany

385
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 2: and social media all over the place, there's this character

386
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: like you said Stefan Hensel, who is the commission of

387
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 2: Antisemitism for the state of Bullin. Now eight of the

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Speaker 2: states of Germany have commissioners of antisemitism, right, none of

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00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 2: whom are Jewish, none of whom were elected. They kind

390
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: of semi it's it's super weird they are, it's semi legal.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like nobody knows that exists, nobody knows that,

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Speaker 2: nobody elects them. This character Stephan Hens, and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to pay too much attention to him because he's

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Speaker 2: just like a nebulous, Islamophobic pro Zionist, you know, bureaucrat.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, he does a series of interviews, and to

396
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 2: summarize the numerous interviews and his social media posts, I

397
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: am called, quote literally a hateful anti Seamite who advocates

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Speaker 2: for terrorism against Jews. Now this is two weeks after

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00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: bearing my Jewish mother, who was a second generation Holocaust survivor.

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Speaker 2: Now that is that definition of gaslighting right now, as

401
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: a white man, it's testimony to my privilege that I

402
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: haven't experienced gaslighting on a daily basis as most women do.

403
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 2: Certainly every Palestinian friend I have, they experience that every

404
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 2: minute of their lives because their very essence is illegal

405
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: being Palestinian. You know, the blood that runs with their

406
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: veins is illegal. They don't exist because they're Palestinian. Right,

407
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: But so I stand accused of these things, and I'm

408
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: like I'm god smacked. I'm like, and the reason is

409
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: is because I've been vocal about my support and solidarity

410
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Speaker 2: for Palestinian rights, and.

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Speaker 1: It was particularly about your support for the BDS movement.

412
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Speaker 2: Right exactly. So BDS, boycott, divestments, sanctions has become a

413
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: kind of it's like one of these terms that emerges

414
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: in the world. It's like terrorism or or on drugs

415
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: or what are the terms can we come up with?

416
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's like it's one of these catchphrases and

417
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: it's like bids. Yeah, and it's like it's just like

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00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: people don't even associate it with boycott, divestment sanctions. If

419
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: you break it down, you know what ended apartheid in

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Speaker 2: South Africa? There was no there was no sudden moral awakening. Basically,

421
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: the Cold War ended. Reagan and Thatcher, who were total

422
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: supporters of apartheid South Africa, Suddenly the Cold War ended.

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Speaker 2: South Africa wasn't that important an asset and there was

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Speaker 2: international pressure and you know, more and more people started

425
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Speaker 2: to see what the atrocities that were going on, and

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Speaker 2: sanctions and divestments started to happen. Right, So polaroid become

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Speaker 2: BENI Polaroid I did a project about this was one

428
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Speaker 2: of the first companies that colluded with the South African

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Speaker 2: government but also divested when that when when they were exposed,

430
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: and that led to a number of banks divesting from

431
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: South Africa, so sanctions and investments, and essentially the South

432
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: African government in the late eighties was financially broke. So

433
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: they were forced to the negotiation table because they were broke,

434
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 2: not because they they they woke up one morning and said,

435
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: oh my god, we're we're oppressing the majority of black

436
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: people in this country and and you know, so it's

437
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 2: just like they were forced to and so so BDS,

438
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: which is a peaceful, non violent means of resistance that

439
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: that that started during the Second inter Father has become

440
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: one of these catchphrases. And I'll tell you a story.

441
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: And this all came to a head around last year's Documenta,

442
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: which happens in the city of Castle in Germany. Now,

443
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: document is a really interesting art event in the art

444
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: world calendar, and last year Documenta was that was a

445
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 2: very very interesting little theater play. So what happened during

446
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 2: Documentar last year is that there was a group of

447
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: Palestinian artists who were invited to show work, and their

448
00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: space was invaded and there was graffiti was sprayed in

449
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: on the walls. There were two things were sprayed. One

450
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 2: was the number one eight seven and then the word perolta.

451
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: Can you just explain what those both mean?

452
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: I'm not exactly sure, but one eight seven I can

453
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: tell you, okay. And the reason I can tell you

454
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: is because one eight seven was spray painted outside my

455
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: front door, inside my apartment building. And one eight seven,

456
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 2: as any gang member in California will tell you, is

457
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: the Californian penal code for murder. And when you spray

458
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: one eight seven, it's a death threat.

459
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,200
Speaker 1: Oh my god, and so.

460
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 2: And so. What the media did in Germany is said,

461
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: oh no, no, no, hang on, there's a hip hop

462
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: band in Hamburg called one a seventh.

463
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 3: Okay where that came from?

464
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: Wow?

465
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was going to mention that Sublime also has

466
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: a few songs with one eight seven.

467
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: They were just Sublime fans graffiti.

468
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a song. Riots there was a radical

469
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: branch of the Sublime Banklet.

470
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I'd love to hear his music, but I.

471
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 3: Think you don't want any Sublime.

472
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: No, no, I really do. After this, I'm going to

473
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: actually look and listen to. But so on the morning

474
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: when when so back to documenta. So they spray painted

475
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 2: the staff and and then there was a fural because

476
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: there was there was an Indonesian collective who did a

477
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: giant mural and one of the pieces that one of

478
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: the characters in this mural depicted an IDF soldier, an

479
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: Israeli defense for a soldier or an Israeli occupying for

480
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: a soldier as a pig. Right, policeman soldier as a pig.

481
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: I mean, that's an old troup. We've all done it, right,

482
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 2: you know, they're the pigs. Police are the pigs. But

483
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: there was an idea as a pig, and it was

484
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: and so it was deemed anti Semitic, and fair enough.

485
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: It's like it's Germany. It's an Israeli person in a

486
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 2: uniform depicted as a pig. It's tasteless, you know, it's tacky.

487
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: Immediately they kind of covered the mural up, right, but

488
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: bang the troops came in. The israel lobby, the Jewish

489
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: lobby came in. Boom, right, they seized the opportunity and

490
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: they hit and suddenly the word BDS came in, right,

491
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: and so the two curators from grown Rupa who were

492
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: amongst the collective who were curating that year's documentor were

493
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: visiting professors at the Art School in Hamburg, where I

494
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 2: had been a professor for the previous six years. Okay,

495
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: and Stefan Hensel like a little kind of surgeon. He

496
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 2: pinpointed these three little pernicious kind of pro Palestinian people

497
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 2: that were inside a German university, and he wanted to

498
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: remove them with his little tweezers. And and so he

499
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: grouped us together and he slammed the word anti Semitism.

500
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: He accused us of being anti Semitic, and so he

501
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: weaponized this word and this word like it's such an

502
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: interesting word, right, anti Semitism. It's like, so here you've

503
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 2: got a guy. Now he's never declared, and not not

504
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: that it's of any interest to me whether he's Jewish

505
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 2: or not. I mean, I don't think he has the

506
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: right to buy into my lineage of trauma. He doesn't

507
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: have that right. But he married a Jew. He named

508
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: his son, I think David or something. Right, these are

509
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: so there's all these kind of.

510
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: Like gestures to make him see you like he's uh

511
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: has the ability to say these things.

512
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 2: Not not a loophole as much as a kind of

513
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 2: as a kind of dress code. Right. It's like, my

514
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 2: son's called Yeah, my son's called David. I'm married to

515
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 2: a Jewish person. I've lived in Israel for six years.

516
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: I ran the Yidisha Gim, the Israelisha Germanisia organization, you know,

517
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: Israel German organization, which is like, you know, an Islamophobic

518
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 2: kind of weird or weird ass think tank. I don't

519
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: know what they do, right, but the point is, here's

520
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: this guy, and I bet you I would lay money

521
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: on it that his parents or his grandparents were perpetrators

522
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 2: during the Holocaust. And this is this is the way.

523
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: This is the psychological twist. This is like the beautiful

524
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 2: little that the mind does to get oneself out of

525
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: feeling shit about yourself.

526
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even attempting to remove those people from

527
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 1: their posts is like, that's a great example of Germany

528
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: using anti Semitism, like weaponizing it at an institutional level.

529
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: Like that's a that's really unfortunate. I want to I

530
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: do want to mention this really quick. In twenty nineteen,

531
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: Germany tried to make BDS a hate crime and even

532
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: though it was challenged and then it was found to

533
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,920
Speaker 1: be unconstitutional. That like the fact that tenth was made.

534
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: From what I understand, there's still an attitude in Germany

535
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 1: about BDS being this illegal ish thing.

536
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 2: Fair exactly. So it's like, you know, my father was

537
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: a law as I said, So I know the difference

538
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 2: between law and justice, and I know what a test

539
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 2: case means. So you bring something to trial means it

540
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: enters into the language of society, right, And when you

541
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 2: say is BDS anti semitic and you like test this thing,

542
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: suddenly there's this presumption and there is a presumption that

543
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 2: BDS is anti Semitic, And I can give you concrete

544
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 2: examples of how it's happened, how it's played out over

545
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 2: the last couple of years.

546
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: Oh wait, I want James to mention you looked up

547
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: that word, right, James.

548
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 3: Isabel Peralta. Yeah, I'm familiar with her, unfortunately, and I

549
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 3: think this kind of lines up with the sort of

550
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 3: she came on the scene in twenty twenty one that

551
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 3: I had been around doing antimptisms for a long time.

552
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 3: She is a self self described fascist in Spain. She's

553
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,200
Speaker 3: part of a group or at the time was leading

554
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 3: a group called huvnor Patriiostrica, which is patriotic youth, and

555
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 3: like the speech that she's most famous for was delivered

556
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: at a commemoration for the Divisio on a Fool, which

557
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 3: is a blue division. They're the Francoist volunteers who fought

558
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 3: for Nazi Germany, which you know, if you're commemorating that,

559
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: you're kind of a piece of shit. And then she

560
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 3: went on to be a further piece of shit, I

561
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: suppose by like, she's very explicit in her antisemitism, right,

562
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: she doesn't do what a lot of these people do

563
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,879
Speaker 3: and kind of veil it. She talks about Jewish people

564
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,520
Speaker 3: as the eternal enemy. And it's worth pointing out that

565
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: in Spain, Spain has had what's largely called anti Semitism

566
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: without Jews, or sometimes called that because Spain conducted ethnic

567
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: cleansing or it conducted a literally they'll call it an

568
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,320
Speaker 3: olympietha like a cleansing and a removal of Jewish people,

569
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 3: and Spanish Jewish population is still very small, and so

570
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: this sort of virulent anti Semitism that were seeing on

571
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: her behalf, it had impacts all around Europe, and she

572
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: was kind of the the most prominent and outspoken anti

573
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 3: Semite for a little while there.

574
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: So that was the name they graffitied, along with one

575
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: of the seven.

576
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess trying to tie this documenta to her

577
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 3: disgusting anti Semitic, which is entirely distinct things, right, Like

578
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 3: I think, as you were saying, and like that, by

579
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 3: by putting the two in the same phrase, we conflate

580
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 3: them when when they are entirely distinct things. And she,

581
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 3: I think all of us would agree, is a terrible

582
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 3: person views.

583
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: But if we dig a little deeper, we get to

584
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: the core, which is why did the Nazis and the

585
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: Zionists collaborate in the nineteen thirties Because they had the

586
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: same desire they had. They wanted the same outcome. They

587
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: wanted the Jews out of Europe. They wanted them to

588
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: move to Palestine, right. Zionism was a European project started

589
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 2: in the early twentieth century in Vienna. They wanted their

590
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: Jewis out of Europe and into Palestine. The Zionists did,

591
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: so they collaborated, and I think, really, truly, I think

592
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 2: that we do face a real threat of real anti

593
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: Semitism in Germany. And I have two children. My daughter

594
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 2: is thirteen, her name is Lennie. My little boy is ten.

595
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: His name's Marlow. And if you look at the police

596
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 2: report of twenty twenty two that was released in Berlin,

597
00:43:54,800 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: there are multiple numerous incidents of visual and quite violent

598
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: incidents of real anti Semitism, right, And why are we

599
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 2: not addressing that because my kids are in danger? And

600
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: instead we have the Minister of Culture, whose name is

601
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 2: Claudia Roff. Stand up a couple of weeks ago on

602
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: a Friday night at the opening of Haka. There, you know,

603
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: a huge institution that my dear friend Bonaventour, who comes

604
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 2: from Cameroon is he's been made the head of this institution.

605
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: And it's a Friday night, and the whole is full

606
00:44:56,120 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 2: of people and it's glorious, a beautiful night. I mean,

607
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 2: you have diversity like you've never seen. This is like

608
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 2: queer diverse blackness, indigenous thought, it's queer thought. It's like

609
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: fucking peaches. Is there? Everyone's there, you know what I mean?

610
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: And Claudia Raff takes the stage, she takes the microphone,

611
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,560
Speaker 2: and what does she say? She says in the silence

612
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 2: in the room, and she says BDS is anti Summitic.

613
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck? Yeah, BDS is antisemitic. And I'll

614
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 2: tell you I love Boner. Now let me tell you

615
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: about Bonavento. Bonnac came from Cameroon thirteen years ago. He

616
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: has a PhD. His PhD is in biotechnology. He worked

617
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: all day building pacemakers while he set up a cultural

618
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 2: institution called Savvy Contemporary and Savvy represented the Bipop community

619
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 2: in Berlin and in Germany. Right, Bonner is a genius.

620
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: He deals with post colonialism like I mean, he's a maestro.

621
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 2: He's amazing what he has done. He's changed the landscape

622
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: of this country. He's brought colonialism into the into the

623
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 2: discourse of the country, into the culture. Right. But my

624
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 2: fear is is they've used him as a trojan horse,

625
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 2: and they've got the German States have got their fist

626
00:46:54,560 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: up his fucking ass. And that night when he it

627
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 2: was Bonner's night, it was the night of diversity. There

628
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 2: comes this pernicious minister of Culture and she stands up

629
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 2: and out of the blue, she says, b DS is

630
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: anti semitic. Bona because he's such a graceful, smart man,

631
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: and because he knows that we are fighting intersectional struggles

632
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 2: that happen at different velocities and happen at different speeds

633
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 2: and come at different angles. He came up on stage

634
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: and he said, we come in peace. It scares me, No, it's.

635
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 1: I could only imagine what it was like to be

636
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: there a person. I mean, it sounds mortifying, especially if

637
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: you're Palestinian or Arab bird, just an anti Zionis in general.

638
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: I brought up a story here that I heard Adam

639
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: talk about on a different show, but future me is

640
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: recording this now because I wanted you to have some

641
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: more context to the story so you can really grasp

642
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:18,879
Speaker 1: the irony of it all. It's a great example of

643
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: the divide and intensity that happens, or that can happen

644
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 1: with anti Zionists and Zionists within the Jewish community itself.

645
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: Adam said that some of the people who he had

646
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: assumed were friends and allies have disappeared, which is one

647
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: of the prices you pay for criticizing Israel. Adam had

648
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: been spending more time in Hebron, what he described as

649
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: a wasteland. He said in the previous interview that you

650
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 1: spend ten minutes at Hebron and you get the notion

651
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: of apartheid, occupation and Jewish supremacy. You get it, and

652
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: no one has to utter the words. Adam has documented

653
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,800
Speaker 1: violence in places like maximum security jails Afghanistan two thousand

654
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,919
Speaker 1: and three, Iraq two thousand and five, but he said

655
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: that two times he's felt the most existentially and physically

656
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: a threat of death. One of those times was last

657
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: year when he was in Hebron and him and his

658
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: team went to take photos of olive trees. Olive trees

659
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 1: in that area can be two thousand to four thousand

660
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: years old, and since nineteen sixty seven, Israeli settlers have

661
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: destroyed one million of these trees. I have an episode

662
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 1: about this and the significance of the Palestine olive tree,

663
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 1: about how it's not only an immensely important crop but

664
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: also a symbol of Palestinian culture and resistance. I talk

665
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: about this in that episode as well, But it bears

666
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: repeating that destroying olive trees is one of the most

667
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: clear examples that Zionism isn't about wanting to return to

668
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: a sacred land that is destined to you. Instead, Zionism

669
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: is hateful and inexcusable. Adam shares this sentiment, which I appreciate,

670
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: and I really loved learning about his work with olive trees.

671
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: I just don't think Zionists have any kind of rebuttal

672
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: or reasoning to support why the hell they keep destroying

673
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 1: olive trees decade after decade, Like in what universe can

674
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: you say and believe that you have a genuine attachment

675
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 1: to that land, a biblical right to that land? Like

676
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: how could you say that you love that land as

677
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: a sacred space, but then also go and destroy what

678
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: Adam describes as its quote oldest indigenous citizens, aka the

679
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 1: olive trees. That's not a person who loves that land

680
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: that it's a person who was driven by hate. So

681
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: Adam is working to preserve and protect these trees. Settlers

682
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: pour gasoline down the center of the tree trunk, so

683
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,399
Speaker 1: by the time you see smoke, a tree is already dead.

684
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: He was there and have run with a camera taking

685
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: photos of the trees. And then Jewish settlers sent these

686
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: packs of kids that he said were ages five to seventeen,

687
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 1: dressed in full religious garb, accompanied by the Israeli military.

688
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,840
Speaker 1: Adam and his crew kept getting attacked by these kids

689
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 1: as the military stood by, but he explained that you

690
00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:05,719
Speaker 1: can't lift a finger to defend yourself because these kids

691
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 1: are miners. Adam talked about this and said, if I

692
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: was Palestinian and I pushed back, I would be shot

693
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: on the spot. The fact that I'm Jewish, I would

694
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: just be removed and the work would simply be over.

695
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,720
Speaker 1: So he got beaten pretty badly several times, and apparently

696
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 1: there's footage of it somewhere, and his experience and have

697
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: brown again is one of those two times that he's

698
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 1: felt the most existentially and physically at the threat of death.

699
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 1: The second time happened a few days later, which is

700
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: the story I briefly mentioned to him in the recording

701
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: that we did that I want to talk about more here.

702
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 1: So a few days after that incident, Adam returned to

703
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: Berlin and it happened to be the anniversary of krystel

704
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 1: Nacht or the Night of Broken Glass, which is widely

705
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 1: known as the beginning of the Holocaust. It's also called

706
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: the November Pogrom, and it was a pogrom against Jews

707
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: carried out by the Nazi Party with some particition patient

708
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: from the Hitler youth and German civilians throughout Nazi Germany

709
00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: on the ninth and tenth of November in nineteen thirty eight.

710
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: The German authorities looked on as this happened without intervening.

711
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:17,279
Speaker 1: The name Krystelnacht is literally translated to crystal Knight, and

712
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: this name comes from the shards of broken glass that

713
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: littered the streets after the windows of Jewish owned stores, buildings,

714
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: and synagogues were smashed. So back to Adam's story, a

715
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: memorial for krystel Noacht is held at the sight of

716
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 1: the two old synagogues that had been burned down in Germany.

717
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: Adam arrived there with a crew holding signs that said

718
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: Jews against Fascism everywhere. He's surrounded by fellow Jewish people,

719
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,280
Speaker 1: and this big guy comes up to Adam, and Adam

720
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: describes this guy as being much bigger and much taller

721
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: than him. And so this big guy looks down at

722
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: Adam and he says, get rid of those signs. Who

723
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: gave you the right to be here? Adam responded, quote

724
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: the death of ninety percent of my family. What troubles

725
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: you about the sign? Are you anti Semitic? Are you fascist?

726
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: Are you bothered by the word everywhere. Have you got

727
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: this weird synesthesia thing where you see the word everywhere

728
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 1: and you see Israel. Do you think I'm implying that

729
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: there's a possibility that Israel could have fascist traits? In

730
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 1: response to this, this big guy starts attacking Adam. So

731
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: Adam ran absolutely terrified. He ran and sought protection from

732
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: the German police. The irony of a Jewish person feeling

733
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: his life threatened by another Jewish person and then seeking

734
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:45,200
Speaker 1: refuge from the German police. Adam says this was the

735
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: most surreal moment of his life.

736
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: So so ironic. But let me flip that story on

737
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:55,800
Speaker 2: its head, right, And now, okay, So it's nineteen eighty

738
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: eight and I am on the front page of a

739
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: new paper and I get home to my mother and

740
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 2: she's furious. She's fucking furious because there I am on

741
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:12,480
Speaker 2: the front page of the newspaper. And I'm hold, I'm there,

742
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 2: my face is there, and I'm holding up a flower,

743
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:19,319
Speaker 2: and in front of me is a is a South

744
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:24,200
Speaker 2: African riot policeman. Right. And it was one of the

745
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 2: demonstrations I was at at the age of eighteen, on

746
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: the campus at Vitsa University. All Right, and I got

747
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: into ship from my mother, who said, what the fuck

748
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: are you doing standing in front of the riot police.

749
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 2: I got into ship from a black student society, because we,

750
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 2: as white students, took orders from a black student society.

751
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 2: He said, what are you doing holding a flower to

752
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 2: the fucking pig doing it like this? This is not

753
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixties. We're fighting a struggle. So I got

754
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 2: in ship from both sides. Right now, cut to May,

755
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 2: a few months ago, I mean Iranian Platz, there is

756
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 2: a commemoration organized for the ongoing Knakba. All right, we

757
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 2: know what the Knuckba is, the catastrophe, right, so in

758
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 2: nineteen we don't have to explain that. But all for

759
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: two the year before that, all commemorations for the knackbar

760
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: were banned. And in May, the commemorations for the Knackbar

761
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 2: organized by Palestinian groups were banned. So Yidish Stima, which

762
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: means Jewish voices the organization they organized a commemoration and

763
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 2: we gathered together on a beautiful Sunday morning, and you know,

764
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: it was really lovely, and there were kids there, there

765
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 2: were old people. It was great, and we were all

766
00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 2: all gathered together there and we gave the platform to

767
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 2: some Palestinian voices who were just speaking about freedom from

768
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 2: the river to the sea, you know, And suddenly the

769
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 2: riot police came boom, boom, boom, you know. Lines of

770
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 2: them intercepted us. And I was faced again at the

771
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 2: age of fifty two, not eighteen, So flipped from nineteen

772
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: eighty eight to twenty twenty three, and I'm facing eye

773
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 2: to eye with the fucking white riot policeman and it

774
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 2: was the same riot policeman. And you know what I

775
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 2: said to him. I said to him, where was your

776
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 2: grandmother during the war? And he didn't answer me, and

777
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 2: I said, do you know where my grandmother was? And

778
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 2: he said, I don't care, At which point I turned

779
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: around and two or three, and there's there's footage of

780
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: this from every single angle. Two or three of these

781
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 2: right policemen jumped on top of me, brutally beat me

782
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 2: and arrested me, handcuffed me. They handcuffed me so tightly

783
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 2: that they had to call the fucking fire brigade to

784
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 2: cut the handcuffs off me. And hang on, it gets worse.

785
00:57:13,080 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 2: Then an hour later, I'm on the front page of

786
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: the Berlin Zetel. There I am being marched off by

787
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,600
Speaker 2: German police, right police. And you know what, the headline says,

788
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:35,600
Speaker 2: one hundred anti Semitic Palestinian protesters disrupt Jewish memorial. Check

789
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: it out. Check it out, and you know what, I

790
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 2: think it's still up there. Yeah, Okay, this is where

791
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: we're at. This is where we're at in this country. Like,

792
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: forget fact checking. This is not a Palestinian. I'm a

793
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:59,200
Speaker 2: fucking Jew. You've arrested a fucking third generation Holocaust surviving Jew,

794
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 2: You mother fucking Nazi. And they tell me de Nazification

795
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: never happened in this country. There's no such thing as

796
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 2: neo Nazis. They're Nazis man And this Stefan Henzel, he

797
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 2: wants the Jews out of Germany. That's what's underneath all

798
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 2: of the shit, right, because if they were worried about antisemitism,

799
00:58:24,800 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 2: let's talk about antisemitism, okay, because I've got kids and

800
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: they need to be safe.

801
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

802
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 4: I mean, I was reading the other day a news

803
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:37,480
Speaker 4: article from I think fifty one or fifty two that

804
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 4: was about one of the god Now I was facing

805
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 4: ot his name, but he was he was a Wehrmacht

806
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 4: general who was you know, commanded troops on the Ast Front,

807
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 4: survived the war and later got into German politics. And

808
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 4: it was just a it was an article about one

809
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 4: of his political rallies where protesters were like broken up

810
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 4: and beaten up by German police officers. And it's kind

811
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 4: of this the same, like, yeah, what were your what

812
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 4: was your family doing during those twelve years? You know,

813
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 4: like it's it's really it's a question you can ask,

814
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 4: but it's rarely really a question, right right, Yeah, Like

815
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,000
Speaker 4: there was never any that's such an important point, you know,

816
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 4: particularly when we talk about like why there is you know,

817
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 4: such what you can call technically support for Israel that's rooted,

818
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 4: as you noted, often in just getting Jewish people out

819
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 4: of Germany. Like there was never any kind of real denatification.

820
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:33,040
Speaker 3: No, yeah, no, no, no systemic level.

821
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 2: This is all about white supremacy man. Because I'll tell

822
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: you what, and this goes deeper. On the fifteenth of July,

823
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: they made a law in Berlin that all public swimming pools.

824
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 2: They claim that there was a rise in violence in

825
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 2: public swimming pools in Berlin. Okay, particularly in Nikol and Kreutzberg, which,

826
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 2: as we know, other areas of like migrants, particularly Palestinian

827
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 2: Middle Eastern migrants. Right. And in fact, if you look

828
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:16,840
Speaker 2: at the statistics from twenty nineteen to two twenty twenty two,

829
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: violence has gone down by twenty one or twenty three percent,

830
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:27,040
Speaker 2: I can't remember correctly, so that's incorrect. But now we

831
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 2: have a state a position where at the entrance of

832
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 2: every swimming pool there is a police fan and they

833
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: are ethnically and racially profiling people who come into swimming pools. Right,

834
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 2: And there is basically a law that says that there

835
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:52,920
Speaker 2: shall not be more than three men read three men

836
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: of color in a public swimming pool. Okay, And this

837
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,040
Speaker 2: this is where we're heading. Felix Klein, who's the Federal

838
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 2: Commission of Anti Semitism, Stefan Henzel, who's the Hamburg one,

839
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 2: these people that the mayor of Berlin. On Pentecost night,

840
01:01:14,880 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 2: he tweeted, check out check out his tweet. He tweeted something.

841
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 2: It went like this, It said, we wish everybody a

842
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 2: happy Pentecost, and we wish our guests a lovely time.

843
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 2: Our guests. This is like, dude, I mean, you know Christian,

844
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: it's grim It's fucking grim man. And you know these

845
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 2: people want a white they want a white Aryan Christian

846
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 2: fucking country. They want the dark people out.

847
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:52,880
Speaker 1: I mean that's a huge part that people don't realize

848
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 1: is that Zionism is mostly white supremacy and mostly very

849
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 1: anti anti Jewish, because that's advocates for just like the

850
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: expulsion of the Jews.

851
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 2: Again, well, it's a fucking mental illness, is what it is.

852
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with you.

853
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 3: I just wanted to reflect, like maybe as we as

854
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 3: we end up on how far the needle has swung

855
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 3: when we talk about like anti Semitism, anti Zionism, and

856
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 3: sort of where they because they do have a lap, yeah,

857
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,439
Speaker 3: but they don't know they are not the same thing.

858
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 3: And I think about how there's this letter that is

859
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 3: the New York Times published like it was in the

860
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 3: late nineteen forties forty eight, forty nine. It co signed

861
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 3: by a lot of prominent Jewish intellectuals, including Hannah Rent

862
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 3: Albert Einstein, talking about the settler policies in Israel at

863
01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 3: that time by Zionist groups at that time as fascist,

864
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 3: which is something that would now be considered to be

865
01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 3: like antisemit, Like that's calling Israel fascist? Was what got

866
01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 3: you chased at him by that guy. It's considered to

867
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,479
Speaker 3: be anti Semitic in Germany, right, Like these are people

868
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 3: who you know, had lost family members. You know, they

869
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 3: can the nuclear family to the Holocaust, like prominent Jewish

870
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 3: intellectuals who would now be considered I guess anti semitic

871
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 3: under this by saying sit New York Times would publish

872
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: and the Times wouldn't publish that now.

873
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know a few of us got together in

874
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 2: Oranian pluts in a place where we were arrested in

875
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 2: May a few like Jewish friends of mine, like some

876
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: from Brooklyn, some from Israel, some from here. And you know,

877
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 2: five nights ago, a young Palesinian man was arrested by

878
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: twelve Israeli policemen and they branded a they cut with

879
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: a knife the Star of David into his chield. Yeah,

880
01:03:49,640 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 2: and there's footage of this and they literally cut the

881
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:58,880
Speaker 2: Star of David into his cheek. And we wore red

882
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:04,320
Speaker 2: Stars of David at the schedule tonight, And it just

883
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 2: strikes me as ironic. You know, like eighty years ago,

884
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:12,400
Speaker 2: my ancestors were forced to wear a yellow star as

885
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:18,120
Speaker 2: a lapel on their armband or stuck to their jackets

886
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: to shame them, to declare them as Jews, as dirty

887
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 2: Jews in public. And now I feel like I've got

888
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 2: to wear this red star because of our collective shame,

889
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: because of what's being done in our name by the

890
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 2: State of Israel and by Zionism. And this is not

891
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 2: allowed to be done in my name. Really, that's sorry

892
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 2: to be so grim?

893
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 1: Fuck No, I mean, if there is ever an ending story, yeah, yeah,

894
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: it's a grim story, but I think it's a great

895
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: place to end. There's still so much I want to

896
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: ask you. I would love to know your thoughts about

897
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 1: like liberal Zionism, but that's gonna have to wait for

898
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 1: next time. Thank you for giving us time in the

899
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: middle or the early mornings.

900
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: Thank you so much of course.

901
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, Adam, where can people find you online and help

902
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:13,439
Speaker 3: support the advocacy you're doing.

903
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 2: Mostly I'm a bit of a geriatric, so I'm just

904
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: on Instagram.

905
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 1: Adam Broomberg put it in the description for anyone that

906
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 1: is curious. Thank you for doing your work. Everyone go

907
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 1: follow Adam, make sure everyone doesn't. Just let's let's protect Adam.

908
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 1: Let's protect Adam and his family out there.

909
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,160
Speaker 2: But thank you again, Thank you guys.

910
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, Thank you, Adam really appreciate me.

911
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: And that's the episode. It Could Happen Here as a

912
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool

913
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com or

914
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 1: check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

915
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for

916
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com

917
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.