1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. We're welcome to stuff 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:19,160 Speaker 1: I've never told you a production of iHeartRadio, and today 3 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: we have an interview for you that we are so 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: excited to share. As you know, we often nerd out, 5 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: perhaps get nervous, fangirl over amazing women who have done 6 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: amazing things, and this was one of those instances because 7 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: we were fortunate enough to get to interview Michelle Norris. 8 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: And I'm still like, we're recording this separately because she's 9 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: really busy and was covering a hearing in Washington, DC 10 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: in the middle like she was like, I gotta go 11 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: to get to this hearing, right, And she took the 12 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: time to talk with us, and it was amazing and 13 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: it was an amazing conversation. We have so much more 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about, didn't have the time. But hopefully, Samantha, 15 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: you really you really put down the seeds. 16 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 2: I was really trying real hard. I'm like, I need 17 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 2: this conversation to keep going, so I'm going to put 18 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: a teaser out bait her hopefully and how she'll want 19 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: to come back on. But you also did a good 20 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:28,560 Speaker 2: job with the mac and cheese, Like a we need 21 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: to follow up with that anyway. Yeah, a teasers obviously. 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: Yes, you're gonna have to listen to learn about the 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: mac and cheese. But Michelle Norris, if you don't know 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: who she is, she has done amazing work. She was 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: a correspondent for ABC News in the nineties and early 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: two thousands. She got a Peabody for her coverage of 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: nine to eleven. She was the first black woman to 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: host NPR of All Things Considered. And she's done so 29 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: much more than that. She's got the Race Card Project, 30 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: which you can learn more about at the racecardproject dot com. 31 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: She's got a book that came out called Our Hidden Conversations, 32 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: What Americans Really think about race and Identity. She's got 33 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: a memoir called The Grace of Silence. She has done 34 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: so much. Really check her out, and she's really really 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: she's just someone who's so curious. And even in this interview, 36 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: we kept getting kind of caught in her interviewing us. 37 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: And I grew up. My mom loves All Things Considered, 38 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: and I kind of talk about it in this episode, 39 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: but we would listen to it in the kitchen while 40 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: we were cooking, and my mom when I was like 41 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: key enough to interview Michelle Norris on other podcasts I 42 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 1: do Saver and at the end, she did the thing 43 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: she does, which is ask you a question, and I 44 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: was talking about my mom and my mom's kitchen because 45 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: this question just brings out so much in you. And 46 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: my mom listened to that episode and was so moved 47 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: by it and so like, oh my gosh, I can't 48 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: believe that this person I was listening to in the 49 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: kitchen is talking about my experience in the kitchen. It 50 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: was really sweet. It was a very sweet thing. So 51 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm very moved by that. And we had a million 52 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: things we wanted to talk about we didn't get to. 53 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: I would say one of the things we didn't get 54 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: to is that you can you can find her her 55 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: book and read more about it. But her grandmother was 56 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: someone who was one of the performers who went around 57 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: and portrayed Aunt Jemima, who cooked and portrayed Aunt Jemima. 58 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: It's really fascinating. But yeah, I mean, Samantha, I'm sure 59 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: you could speak more to it, but it was difficult 60 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: to limit our questions. 61 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: Right, there's so much she's doing so much. I think 62 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: that's the bigger portion is like the amount of content 63 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: she has is overwhelming, especially in the last year, like 64 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: just in the last year alone, and we were trying 65 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: to kind of just keep it in that realm because 66 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: she also is a fabulous storyteller as she will say it, 67 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: and a story collector. And I don't think there's any 68 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 2: other way to describe her because like just me in 69 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: a journalist, which is a big feat in it self, 70 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 2: like all of that, that is not enough to describe her, 71 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: Like it's not who she is what she does. So 72 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: it was a phenomenal conversation and she does so well 73 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: and giving intense questions but in the simplistic way that 74 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: opens up so many doors and it was beautiful. Yeah, 75 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: And we definitely were like, no, I'm not telling you this. 76 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: You have to come back, because she was trying to 77 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: interview flip the tables on us. One boy, she said, 78 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: I'm sitting on my hands trying not to ask you 79 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: more questions, follow up questions. I was like, no, ma'am, 80 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: we're not doing this. 81 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's the the beauty of when 82 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: a podcast is that what I personally think is at 83 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: its best is that curiosity that like I want to 84 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: know more, let me listen, tell the story, let me 85 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: collect the story, let me tell the story, like all 86 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: of those things. So with all of that, let us 87 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 1: get in to our interview with Michelle Norris. So today 88 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: we are so thrilled and excited to be joined by 89 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: Michelle Norris. I'm honestly like, I'm so excited to talk 90 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: with you. Can you introduce yourself to our audience? 91 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: Hi? Hello, First, Hello, Sam and Annie. So good to 92 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: be with you, So good to be so excited. I am. 93 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 3: My name is Michelle Norris. I am a storyteller and 94 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: a story collector. I am a storyteller in that I 95 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 3: am a longtime journalist. I am a senior contributing editor 96 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: at MSNBC. Prior to that, I was a columnist at 97 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: The Washington Post. I've worked. I worked for ten years 98 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 3: as a host of a little show on UNPR called 99 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 3: All Things Considered, and before that worked at ABC News 100 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 3: and the Chicago La Times and The Washington Post earlier 101 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 3: in my career. So longtime storyteller. For the last fifteen years, 102 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 3: I've been a story collector. I run something called the 103 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 3: Race Car Project, where I collectoes from people about race 104 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 3: and identity that begin with just six words, so they 105 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 3: start with a little microburst and they often grow into 106 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: something bigger. And I now host a podcast called Your 107 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: Mama's Kitchen where I collect stories from fairly famous people 108 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 3: who tell me about how the kitchens that they grew 109 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 3: up in shaped the people that they became. And the 110 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 3: theory of the case there is that the kitchens are incubators. 111 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: As Conan O'Brien said, it's like the kiln where the 112 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 3: bricks are made. You learn about justice and generosity and 113 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 3: grace and grievance and all kinds of things in the kitchen. 114 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 3: A lot more goes on in a kitchen beyond nutrition. 115 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 2: Your podcasts and just the way you described your work 116 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: and who you are the story collector, that's exactly the 117 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 2: perfect description of what you do. It's not just a conversation, 118 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: it's not just a podcast, it's not just a book. 119 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 2: It seems that your work in its entirety, even though 120 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 2: the basis and your education and your background is journalism, 121 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: it is story collecting. It is storytelling, and you do 122 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: a beautiful job and relaying different people's different backgrounds stories 123 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: in such a way that you feel like you know 124 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: these people, which really like tugs. I think I was 125 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: gushing right before. I know I was gushing right before 126 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: we got onto record about your ability to talk to 127 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 2: people in such a way and ask the questions that 128 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 2: are seemingly so simple, Like you literally said, give me 129 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 2: six words about race, and you gave out postcards, and I, 130 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: by the way, that format is so Roman romantic to me. 131 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 2: It just got me. I was like, yes, and you're 132 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: talking about how you put them in bibles. Don't think 133 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: I didn't know what you were doing. 134 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 3: I love that you did that, but we should explain that. 135 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: We should. 136 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 3: I just so. I developed the race Card Project while 137 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 3: I was on a thirty five city book tour, and 138 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 3: I developed the Raskar project in part because I wrote 139 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 3: a book about my family's complex racial legacy, called The 140 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: Grace of Silence, and I knew I would be going 141 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 3: out in the world talking to people about racing. I 142 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 3: thought no one wanted to have that conversation. So the 143 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 3: race Card Project was created to create an entry point 144 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: with postcards. Just give me a postcard with your six 145 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 3: words on it. And I had to figure out how 146 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 3: to distribute the postcards. And so when I was traveling 147 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 3: across the country, I was leaving in the back of airline, 148 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: you know, little little marsupial pouch. I was leaving them 149 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 3: in the airline pouch. I was leaving them. And restaurants, 150 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: I was leaving them behind on tables and in hotels 151 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 3: where the Bible comes in in the nightstand, you know, 152 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 3: there's often a little Bible in the nightstand, And so 153 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: I put postcards in the Bible. So I figured if 154 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 3: somebody was like, you know, needing a good word, that 155 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: they were trying to find them a palm, a psalm 156 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,119 Speaker 3: or proverb ye out would follow a postcard. 157 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: I mean, to be honest, in my mind, if I 158 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: had found a postcard in the Bible, which I don't 159 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: necessarily looked at them, but every now and then you're like, 160 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: there it is. You're like, what are the Mormons want 161 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: from me? Like what is the questions that the Mormons 162 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: are asking me? But no, it was such a fascinating 163 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: and amazing beginning. And like I said, I love like postcards. 164 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: Those are so romantic, and I love that in general. 165 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 2: But you have an amazing way of transforming people's stories 166 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: into this beautiful, beautiful narrative where you just feel it, 167 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: You feel where there's these where they people are coming 168 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: from and the hurt or the beauty of finding themselves, Like, 169 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: this's such an amazing thing. And you have taken that 170 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: all the way from again postcards. Of course, you've been 171 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: a journalist, you've done this. Now you're here in podcasting 172 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 2: and you do the same thing. You do the same 173 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 2: thing with that question, tell me about your mama's kitchen. 174 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 2: So can you talk to us a little bit about 175 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: this podcast and what it's about and how you got here? 176 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 3: Well, isn't it interesting? That's I was reminded when I 177 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,959 Speaker 3: was in San Antonio recently that even that question is 178 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 3: six words, tell me about your mama's kitchen. I never 179 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 3: put that put the two together. But the idea for 180 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 3: the podcast grew out of my work in public radio. 181 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 3: And you two live behind the microphone, so you understand 182 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 3: that you want people to talk a little bit before 183 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 3: you are off to the racist and you start recording 184 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 3: your show, and it's something called a mic check. And 185 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 3: at NPR, the standard question for the mic check was 186 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 3: what did you have for breakfast? Samantha, what did you 187 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: have for breakfast? 188 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: I haven't had breakfast coffee? 189 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 3: Okay, that's that's see, that's the issue, Ms Reese, what 190 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 3: did you have for breakfast? 191 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: Coffee? 192 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 3: Okay, so no one talks it up, right. You never 193 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: have the person who says, oh girl, I had French 194 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 3: toast and it was dredged in eggs that were harvested 195 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: down the road and it was dusted with cinnamon sugar, 196 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: and I had it along with some beautifully scrambled eggs 197 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: and some country fried bacon, and I had a glass 198 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: of No one says that. They say coffee, they say nothing, 199 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: they say toast, They say oah mill. And it's never 200 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 3: enough time for people to talk. And so I started 201 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: asking odd ball questions. Do you use paper or plastic 202 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 3: when you go to the grocery store? What did you 203 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: do for fun on a Saturday night? Tell me about 204 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: your first summer job. What is your favorite pair of shoes? 205 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: And why all of them were? You know, you'd learn 206 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: something about someone and you would get them talking a 207 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: lot more. But the one that was the gold the 208 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: golden question was tell me about your mama's kitchen. Because 209 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: people would go to a different place in their head 210 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 3: and they would start talking, and even if it wasn't 211 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 3: a good experience, you know, they just it just rendered 212 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 3: the pot. It just got them loose limbed, and it 213 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 3: made for a different conversation once we got into whatever 214 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: we were talking about. I mean, even if we were 215 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: talking about, you know, military expenditures, it was just a deeper, richer, 216 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: better conversation because we loosened the guest up. And I 217 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: always thought that that would be a great idea for 218 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 3: a podcast, and then I wound up connecting with the 219 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: good people at Higher Ground Media, which is the production 220 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 3: company that is owned by Baraka Michelle Obama, and the 221 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 3: light bulbs went off and we said, let's create a 222 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 3: really wonderful podcast around this. And the theory of the 223 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 3: case was that we become who we are in the kitchen. 224 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: And it's interesting how we asked this question to all 225 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 3: these different guests, same question, a bunch of different guests, 226 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: and they it goes in completely different directions. You know, 227 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: there's no there are a few redundancies, but even so 228 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 3: there's difference even if the experience is similar. And so 229 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: I know, it's an interesting experience for the listener. And 230 00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: it sure is a heck of a lot of fun 231 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: from me to get to know people in a different 232 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 3: way because often these are famous people. They've done lots 233 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: of interviews, but we learned things that no one else 234 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: has heard before because we're entering through a different door, right. 235 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: I mean, listening to Michelle Obama talking about how much 236 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: she didn't like eggs, she like anything, Yes, I was 237 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: like I would have not imagined. 238 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 3: And you know, and Missus Robinson, who's recently gone to 239 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: glory and we both lost our moms right around this 240 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: in the same week, actually right around the same time, 241 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 3: was a tough cookie. I mean, she was a very 242 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 3: you know, disciplined woman, but she indulged a little. Michelle 243 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 3: Obama said, baby, if you want a peanut butter and 244 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 3: jelly sandwich, that's what we're going to give you. I Mean, 245 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 3: the piece of that episode that I really appreciated was 246 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 3: when she talked about her cousin who came who went 247 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: off and came back with all these radical ideas about 248 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: what a woman could and should do. And you also 249 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 3: learn about those sort of smaller characters than someone life. 250 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: She probably wound up having a really big influence on 251 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: Michelle Obama and who she became and on how she 252 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 3: saw the world. And you know, because Chicago is basically 253 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: like being in the South. If you're on the South 254 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 3: side of Chicago. It's you know, black people who all 255 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 3: came from the South, brought Southern values, Southern ideas with 256 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: them about all kinds of things, religion, gender, race, and 257 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 3: then when people started to break out of those cocoons 258 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 3: and explore bigger worlds and then bring those ideas back, 259 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: they were not often met with an open, armed embrace. 260 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: What'd you talk about, you know, trying to shake up 261 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: the world order, you know, And that was she had 262 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 3: never talked about that before, you know, And so it 263 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 3: was really interesting and I spent you know, a lot 264 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 3: of time with her. I've interviewed her over years. I've 265 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: read her books, I've traveled with her on book tour, 266 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: I've read a bunch of her interviews. And that was 267 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 3: like new material that helped us understand her origin story. 268 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: I love that, Yeah, and I love that beginning you 269 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: talked about feminism in the kitchen. You actually brought that 270 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: up into it, and I was like, here we go, 271 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: here we go, and talking about the growth of the 272 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: matriarch and what feminism was then was just the mere 273 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: fact that, yes, the household was run by women and 274 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: there was no plan about But then you had the 275 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 2: cousin coming in talk about a different narrative of like, no, 276 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 2: I'm not coming here to serve you, this is not 277 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: this is not happening. It was such an amazing conversation. 278 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 3: But all you can to understand that in a black 279 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: household in the nineteen sixties, for a young women to 280 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 3: come in and say I'm not here to serve you, thunderclass. 281 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: Was you know, it was a silent moment. Everybody is, 282 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: what's going to happen here? 283 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: You know? But that that the theme comes up over 284 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 3: and over and over again because for some of us 285 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: at a certain age, feminism came along and changed the 286 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 3: world underneath our mother's feet, I mean, the world shifted. 287 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 3: They had made choices or choices were foisted upon them, 288 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 3: and then suddenly things were different or there was the 289 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 3: possibility of things being different. But there's a group of 290 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,959 Speaker 3: women that were sort of caught, you know, in the 291 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 3: middle of seeing a possibility of change but not being 292 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 3: able to execute on that because of where they were stuck, 293 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 3: you know, in that timeline. But at the same time, 294 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 3: we've also learned that for some women, the idea of 295 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: feminism was interesting because the kitchen was their domain. And 296 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: it was the one place where they could be fully 297 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 3: in control, right, And in other spaces they couldn't, But 298 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 3: the kitchen was one place where they could be in control. 299 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: And then for some women, and I'm finding particularly for 300 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: women of color, was a case where the idea of 301 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 3: feminism not even you know, within the kitchen or outside 302 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 3: of it, but the idea of feminism was interesting because 303 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 3: in some spaces, particularly educated, when we were fighting to 304 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 3: have a home and family, to have a home, family 305 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 3: and work, to work outside the home, and for a 306 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 3: lot of women of color or women who were of 307 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: working class or lower it's like, well, we've been doing 308 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 3: that all along, right, the struggle is real, but so 309 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 3: is the juggle, right, you know we have we have 310 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: already been doing this, and to be able to explore 311 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,719 Speaker 3: that through a child's eyes from someone who is now 312 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 3: an adult has been really really interesting. I mean, Terry Jones, 313 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: I don't know if you listen to that episode, but 314 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: that was another example. She went to college and it 315 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 3: blew her mind and she just thought, I am never 316 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: going to be that person. I love my mom, but 317 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 3: I am never going to be that person. I don't 318 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: want to cook. And now she's a cook and fool 319 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 3: she makes cakes on you know, all the time, but 320 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 3: there was a she had to figure out, how do 321 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 3: I do this without it being subservient, right, how do 322 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 3: I do this on my own terms? And realizing that 323 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 3: her mother had made a beautiful home for the family, 324 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 3: but also realizing that wondering what kind of sacrifices that 325 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 3: she made right, right in order to create that space, 326 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 3: and if she had to subjugate her own ambitions right 327 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: or sort of prestil twist herself to fit into a mold. 328 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you definitely mentioned about having it all in 329 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: that false narrative in itself, and how it can feel 330 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: overwhelming in that whole level, like you do want to 331 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: be the perfect cook and have the perfect home, And 332 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: the narrative was for the longest time that if you're 333 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: not doing these things, you're not fulfilling your role as 334 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 2: a true woman and as a good woman, not having 335 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: that perfect household as well as juggling the perfect job, 336 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 2: and like rising up in that industry to make sure 337 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 2: that you are showing that a woman can do this. 338 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: Like all of these narratives. 339 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 3: I have two thoughts on that I am fascinated by 340 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: old magazines, old emity magazines, old calls magazines, old and 341 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 3: the idea of profect Who were these people who were 342 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 3: who were like pushing the idea of perfection on women, 343 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: Like you couldn't just serve jello. It had to come 344 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 3: in a mold and it had to be topped. It 345 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: had to be ambrosia, and it had to have like 346 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 3: stuff on top of it. You couldn't just serve lemonade. 347 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: It had to have like little throwing wedges of lemons 348 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 3: with Maraschino cherries in it. I mean, who were these 349 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 3: people who were forcing, you know, this idea of womanhood 350 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 3: on I would love, you know, and not like I 351 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 3: have all the time in the world, But part of 352 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: me wants to go back and go inside those editorial pages. 353 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 3: You know, you look at the editorial page, like who 354 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: was this? How did they come up with his ideas? 355 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: Did they live lives of perfections themselves? Or were were 356 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 3: they doing this to moment they were going home and 357 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,479 Speaker 3: you know and eating boiled eggs for dinner because they 358 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 3: you know, if you were doing this and you were 359 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 3: a woman, you were working yourself and raising a family, 360 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 3: or was there secretly a cabal of men you know, 361 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 3: who were coming up with these ideas and forcing it 362 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 3: on women, and then even into the nineteen seventies, I mean, 363 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 3: Michelle Obama and I talked about this in her episode 364 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 3: that Angelie ad that add about you can bring home 365 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 3: the bacon. Yeah, fry it up in the pan and 366 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 3: never let them forget you're a man. And when I 367 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 3: was an NPR, I actually thought about doing this, and 368 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 3: I because we considered all things, and I actually thought 369 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 3: about doing it, and I just never have. And maybe 370 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: after this conversation, I should actually go ahead and do it, 371 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 3: because I actually wanted to find the person and talk 372 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 3: to them who came up with that ad. Yes, you know, 373 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: I wanted to actually talk to them. And it was 374 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 3: at about perfume. It wasn't even about food. You know, 375 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 3: it makes sense, and it's and she's got a trench 376 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 3: coat on. You should go back and look at the 377 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 3: you can find it on. 378 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 2: You know, you're talking about it. She has held this 379 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 2: vague memory of the yes. 380 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: And she's you know, and that you take off and 381 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 3: she's got like that Keana dress on, and you know, 382 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 3: and then the idea is that she's frying at bacon. 383 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 3: And I guess the implication is that the dress is 384 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 3: going to come off and she's going to go, you know, 385 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,199 Speaker 3: make somebody happy. But she can do all that and 386 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 3: still make bacon and still be perfect and smell good 387 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 3: because she's bearing Anjuli. 388 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: Well, she don't smell at bacon. But yeah, we actually 389 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: had a conversation because we had this similar with my 390 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 2: partner's mother talking about how like southern magazines really messed 391 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 2: her up and saying that she had to make the 392 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 2: perfect Christmas or she was failing as a mother and 393 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: a wife. Like she held that for the longest time. 394 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 2: And I'm like, what is this culture that has done 395 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 2: this thing? You are right as men and capitalism. 396 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 3: Like simple, Yeah, I mean I have I have theories 397 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 3: about this. I think that you know, I think that 398 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 3: they were just trying to figure out at a post 399 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 3: war period how to create new roles for people exactly. 400 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 3: And I think that that's why men were There was 401 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: a whole culture of men mowing lawns. And I think 402 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 3: it was frankly, get them out of the house. Yes, 403 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: you know, go mow the lawn, Go do something, Go 404 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 3: do something, just so you're not home like lording over 405 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: everybody else. 406 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: And thanks break. 407 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 3: Maybe that's why fishing culture grew also, get out of 408 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: the house. 409 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I love this. I really want you 410 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: to do this, becaure because I need to know. For me, 411 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: the kitchen has always been kind of a fraught space 412 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: of like, I enjoyed the time with my mom, but 413 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: then like I guess the men in my family felt bad, 414 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: and so they would come in and start talking to us, 415 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, I don't want you to be 416 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: in here. If you're not gonna help, like, then get out. 417 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 1: But I actually do enjoy the cooking part with my mom, 418 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: but it's also one of my earliest memories of getting 419 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 1: really angry. So I'm like, I don't get what you're 420 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: expect to do this. I don't understand it. And I 421 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: feel like the kitchen, as you mentioned, it's been it's 422 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: this space where you learn so much because it's the 423 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: kitchen table is like a place where the bills are 424 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: building up, or the homework is being done, or the 425 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 1: arguments are being had or all of these things, and 426 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: it's just when you look back at it, you're completely right. 427 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 1: It makes so much sense. People have all these stories 428 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: that maybe they're like, oh, I haven't thought about that 429 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: in a long time because I wasn't processing it then, 430 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: but now I am, and the kitchen has become a 431 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: really political space. It is like one of the I've 432 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: tried to get to the bottom of this, Michelle, is 433 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: why do we still tell women to get back to 434 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: the kitchen or go make a sandwich today? 435 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: Like? 436 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: Why is that still one of our biggest. 437 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know we're talking right now, and there's actually 438 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 3: a hearing going on in Washington, d C. Where Nominee 439 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 3: is being questioned about, you know, getting reading the idea 440 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: of women in combat and the idea that women should 441 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 3: be moms and not in combat, as if you can't 442 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: be both, you know both things. I think it's so 443 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 3: interesting that you understood gender dynamics in your house at 444 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,479 Speaker 3: such an early age because of what happened in the kitchen. 445 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: What did you learn about that? What did you divine 446 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 3: from that? 447 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: At the time, I was very I just thought it 448 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: was unfair. I remember thinking, like in a very childish 449 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't have like the understanding necessarily to define why, 450 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: but I thought it was unfair because she would be 451 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: like sitting down and my little brother would ask her, like, 452 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: can you go get me something that he could have done. 453 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: He could have just done it, but she would get 454 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: up and do it, and she was like, no, it 455 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: doesn't bother, It's easy. She wasn't upset by it. But 456 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: II there was something in me that was like, I 457 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: just don't like this. I don't get why he can't 458 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 1: just do it. And I felt like I would have 459 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: gotten up and done it. I wouldn't have asked her. 460 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: And so there's just something in me that was like, 461 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: I thought it was unfair, I guess. 462 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 3: And it's so deep because for some people it may 463 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 3: be just a natural There are people who really get 464 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 3: get great pleasure out of serving people, you know, and 465 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 3: I totally understand that I probably fall within that category. 466 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 3: Cooking is an act of love, you know, presenting a 467 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 3: banquet to people as a act of love. But there 468 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 3: also is an element of keeping the peace, you know, 469 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 3: and there is an element of keeping up with the culture, 470 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 3: you know, the cultural expectations, and then there's just you know, 471 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 3: there's so much that goes into this. When I was 472 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,880 Speaker 3: writing my first book, I came upon this book about 473 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 3: the Great Migration, but it was written through the prism 474 00:26:55,280 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 3: of marriage and the pressures around people who were trying 475 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 3: to figure out how to make it in new environments, 476 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 3: who had fled, who were refugees from the Jim Crow 477 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 3: South and brought all that trauma along with them because 478 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 3: they had escaped terrorism. I mean, let's just be honest 479 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 3: about that. They were they were running towards something better, 480 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 3: but going out into the world and having to deal 481 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: with all the outside pressures, particularly around race, and around 482 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: finances and around inequality, and not ever being able to 483 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 3: be fully who you who you have the potential to 484 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 3: be because of the strictures that keep you from doing that, 485 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 3: and the double strictures that keep you from doing that 486 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 3: as a person of color and a woman of color. 487 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: And then coming home, and the book talked about that 488 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: home was often the one place. We talked about the 489 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 3: kitchen being the one place where a woman had their 490 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 3: you know, had full domain. Well, the home was the 491 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 3: one place in a heteronormative marriage where the man had 492 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 3: full domain. And so all the outside expectations, all the 493 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 3: pressures would come home and you know, Nikki Giovanni and 494 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 3: we just lost and that wonderful exchange with Nikki Giovanni 495 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 3: and James Baldwin where She's talking about fake it for me. 496 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: Like you go out in the world and you smile 497 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 3: and you figure out how to go along and get 498 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 3: along because you have to go along, and you come 499 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 3: home and you have the benefit of letting your hair 500 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 3: down and being your full self and bringing all that 501 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 3: anger home with you. But sometimes I wish you would 502 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: just fake it for me, so I'm not the repository 503 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: of all of that, you know, anger and frustration. And 504 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 3: the kitchen was often you know, I imagine it probably 505 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 3: played out in the bedroom, and it probably played out 506 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 3: in the driveway, and it probably played out in the 507 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: car on the way to church or whatever, but the 508 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 3: kitchen was definitely a place where that played out. And 509 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 3: as the kids, you know, you didn't see what happened 510 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 3: in the kitchen. You maybe saw what happened in the 511 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: front seat of the car, but you saw the back 512 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 3: of their head, so you weren't seeing the sideways, glances, 513 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 3: you know, and all the stuff that happens. But the 514 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 3: kitchen is everything is on full display, so you're seeing, 515 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: you know, everything, and it winds up being a certain 516 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 3: kind of education for the family members who are in 517 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 3: the kitchen, for the kids, for the mother in law, 518 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 3: who's visiting for the neighbor, who's you know, checking everybody out, 519 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 3: you know, and and the kind of inside voice outside voice. 520 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 3: I mean, another thing that comes up in the episodes 521 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,959 Speaker 3: over and over and over again, regardless of what kind 522 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: of kitchen we're talking about, is people talk about the 523 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: mom phone voice. Do you know what I'm talking about? 524 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 3: Your mom talking it and then you know, fussing at 525 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 3: the kids speaking in a certain octave, and then the 526 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: telephone rings Hello, all that just goes away, you know, 527 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 3: like suddenly, you know, you better get yourself downstairs and 528 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: get it together and get out the door. Hello. They 529 00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 3: just can switch it up, just. 530 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, I I have so many memories with the kitchen. 531 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: When you were talking and asking about the kitchen and 532 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: what it looked like, tell me about the setup of 533 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 2: the kitchen, of your mama's kitchen, and I remembered immediately, 534 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: like when I was young coming in. I was adopted 535 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: at seven, so I was somewhat older learning English. But 536 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: one of the things that I love to do. The 537 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 2: way that my parents' kitchen was set up was the stove, 538 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: uh and the oven were next to each other, but 539 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: like had a little nook thing in between the dining 540 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: room and the kitchen, so I could sit on the 541 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: other side of the stove to watch my mother cook 542 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: whatever it was cooking, and I would sit and have 543 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: a conversation with her, whether I was singing to her 544 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 2: about some made up song I had for the day, 545 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: or telling her what happened at school, or to that 546 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 2: she would she would listen, like you know, she'd do that, 547 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: uh huh, uh huh. But I just remembered that memory 548 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: so much because I was so they renovated it and 549 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: they took that down and that was very hurt, like 550 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: they did. But on top of that, that's also how 551 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 2: my mom realized one time that she forgot me because 552 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 2: I wasn't present while she was cooking, that she was 553 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: supposed to pick me up somewhere. But all of those stories, 554 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: it does feel like that kitchen is this moment of 555 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: core memory of my childhood. Like my childhood was good. 556 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: There was a lot of trauma, like most people, I 557 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: think in general, but like there was a lot of 558 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: trauma in trying to figure out my identity. But one 559 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: of the things that I loved was feeling connected to 560 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 2: my mother in that moment, to seeing her cooking and 561 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: she wasn't she wasn't a bad cook, but she's cooked 562 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 2: simply for four kids, very quickly. Whatever she had. So 563 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: Hamburger Helper was always on the menu, Sloppy Joe's were 564 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: on the menu, you know, stuff like that. And I 565 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 2: had a weird relationship with that. I had to back 566 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: and forth with that, But it was something about that 567 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: the kitchen is like the heart of our home, and 568 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: that's that familiarity of my mother. Like no, I didn't 569 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: want anyone to ever touch me when I was sick 570 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 2: except for my mom. I needed her to give me 571 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,280 Speaker 2: a hug. And that's that feel in that kitchen. Why 572 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 2: do you think that it does belong to women like that? 573 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: Why does it belong to the matriarch? 574 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: Well, you know, going back over centuries, this is the 575 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 3: division of labor, you know, in gendered roles have been 576 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 3: prescribed going back over centuries, you know, and there are 577 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 3: aberrations to that. There are places where women do the 578 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 3: hunting and gathering, but those are few and far between. 579 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 3: So I think that it's something that is, you know, 580 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 3: and I'm not sure that it's nature. I think that 581 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: it's sort of decisions that were made about who was 582 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 3: who was going to be viewed as strong and going 583 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 3: to go out and fight wars and and hunt and gather, 584 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 3: and who was going to like do the child rearing. Now, 585 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 3: the child rearing is part of that, because women produce 586 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 3: children and there's a certain point where they do have 587 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 3: to quite literally feed a new human being with their bodies, 588 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 3: and an out of that may have grown the expectation 589 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 3: that they would that they would just be, you know, 590 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 3: the person that would handle the kitchen handle the and 591 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 3: you know, if you understand what life was like before 592 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 3: there were stoves and refrigerators, you know the idea that 593 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 3: women were doing this because they were the weaker sex. Well, 594 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,600 Speaker 3: I invite you to go out and gather water and 595 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 3: carry you know, two buckets of water across a broom 596 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 3: handle on your shoulder. That's the equivalent of like deadlifting, 597 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 3: you know. I invite you to go out and use 598 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 3: an axe to split wood and then carry all that 599 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,520 Speaker 3: wood into a cook stove and keep things going. I 600 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: invite you to spend time with livestock. And so it's 601 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 3: it's not necessarily that they were the weaker sex. There 602 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 3: was an argument over time that women have been weaker 603 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 3: of mind and you know, and then maybe that was 604 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 3: an effort to keep them out of they didn't call 605 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 3: it the workforce at that time, but to keep them 606 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 3: away from life and letters. But this, this continued, and 607 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: then there's a certain degree of social engineering that uh, 608 00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 3: you know, has happened over time and in capitalism. You know, 609 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 3: there's a there's a book by Juju the Ship here. 610 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 3: I can't remember the name of it, but she writes 611 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 3: about the evolution of the kitchen and and how that 612 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 3: was you know, aimed at at women and the lives 613 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 3: that they led. And then there's cultural forces. So I 614 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 3: can remember my own kitchen, but I could describe to 615 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 3: you the Brady Bunch kitchen. 616 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 617 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 3: I remember where the oven was. I remember, you know, 618 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 3: the color scheme. It looked like inside of a Burger King, 619 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 3: kind of orange and brown. I remember Imber Laura Petrie's kitchen, 620 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 3: you know, in the Dick Van Dyke Show. So there 621 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 3: were all kinds of cultural clues. I can describe with 622 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 3: great detail that fabulous kitchens that the Cosby's had, you know, 623 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 3: with the big table in the center of the kitchen. 624 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 3: I don't know if anybody in New York City has 625 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 3: a kitchen that that's that is that large, but they 626 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: managed to create a massive farmhouse style kitchen in a 627 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 3: brownstone in New York City that you know that we 628 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: all watched. Yeah, so there's there's no you know, easy 629 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 3: answer to that, but there are a lot of ingredients 630 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 3: that went into that stew. I'm kind of curious about 631 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 3: life now because cooking, and I'd love to hear more 632 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 3: from you because I'm older than both of you. Cooking 633 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 3: has become it's something that we have to do to 634 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 3: feed ourselves, but it's it's an obsession with I think millennials, 635 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 3: and in a different kind of way, you know, Instagram 636 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 3: shows us. There's a kind of afformative aspect of cooking. 637 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 3: There's a kind of communal dinners. There is a greater 638 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 3: interest in this, and I'm wondering if there's more gender 639 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: parody because of that. 640 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: That's I mean again, Michelle, I wish we could just 641 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: there's so many things we could talk about with this, 642 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 1: because I think I was thinking about we've done episodes 643 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: on like Betty Crocker and women kind of being alone 644 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,399 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and having this person that wasn't real 645 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 1: but they really connected to because they felt so isolated. Yeah, 646 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: and then that moved into like food shows, and then 647 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 1: that moved into Instagram and social media, and from there 648 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: it just there are so many issues to unpack because 649 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:53,360 Speaker 1: I do think it has become, at least in my 650 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 1: friend group. I feel a lot of times it is 651 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 1: more equitable cook king. There's still sort of lanes people 652 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: seem to stay in, but there's also kind of there's 653 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 1: the whole trad wife thing, which we've talked about before, 654 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: and there's this food prep thing that I feel I 655 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: don't think it's as prevalent now, but it got really 656 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: out of hand. 657 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: For a while, it was still happening. It still happened, 658 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 2: like preparing your meals for the week, and that little 659 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:27,160 Speaker 2: tiny container. 660 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: Of that I did, Oh I'm a I'm a fan 661 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: of it for. 662 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 3: The whole I prepped for Sunday for the whole week. 663 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: It got out of hand, thought like. 664 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 2: People all excel based on that, like let me help 665 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 2: you with this specific type of containent, like the capitalism 666 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 2: that came from that came from that. It became such 667 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: a thing and it had to be manly and or 668 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 2: if you're not eating all proteins and you're not doing. 669 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 3: Oh, it's like, yeah, I mean I'm a big fan 670 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 3: of the prepping. I did that for years when I 671 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 3: was working. I would prep for the week and it 672 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 3: would just I could cook so much faster. I would 673 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 3: just spend Sunday watch something on you know, watch a 674 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 3: great movie, listen to something, and just prep for the week. 675 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 3: But I understand what you're saying that Instagram. I mean 676 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 3: it's like the butter board. Remember for a while everyone 677 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 3: was doing those butterboard Like nobody wants to spread butter 678 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 3: on a wooden board. I mean, like like dip stuff 679 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 3: into butter. I mean that's so things take off. But 680 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 3: one of the reasons I asked the gender of question 681 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 3: because you know, even though the world of the kitchen 682 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 3: has been gendered toward women, if you look at celebrity 683 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 3: chef culture, right, it's still so male. Yes, And I'm 684 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 3: noticing if you're on Instagram, a lot of the most 685 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 3: popular people on Instagram are who are cooking and doing 686 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: that kind of performative cooking are also men. So but 687 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,880 Speaker 3: I wonder if that translates into people picking up the 688 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 3: kind of the responsibility of cooking at home different to 689 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 3: cook on Instagram with the right lighting and you know, 690 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 3: the right angles and everything else. Something that can feel 691 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 3: like drudgery, you know, because people you got to eat, 692 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 3: so someone's got to cook. And when that happens, is 693 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 3: there still the sort of what's for dinner culture as 694 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,959 Speaker 3: opposed to you know, what can we cook for dinner? 695 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 3: The what's for dinner? What's for dinner is such a 696 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 3: loaded question because it's the expectation that. 697 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,400 Speaker 2: You were going to you're going to perhaps something. 698 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 3: The dinner, as opposed to let's talk about what we 699 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,760 Speaker 3: should have for dinner, right, because what's for dinner means 700 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 3: it kind of means what are you serving me for dinner? 701 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 2: Exactly. I think we did talk about this in the 702 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: line of that, yes, chefs is more dominated as a 703 00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: profession by men, but even still today women are more 704 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 2: likely to be the home cooks. And you can even 705 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 2: tell almost in the type of food being served that 706 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 2: women are more like going to have a little homage 707 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 2: to the old style or their family style versus like 708 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 2: being the professional French cuisine like you see that line up. 709 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,239 Speaker 2: Still even though because it's just like in everything we 710 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,440 Speaker 2: talked about with brewing beer, it was that same mentality 711 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 2: it used to be women who did that. Then it 712 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 2: became profitable, so men started taking it. 713 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 3: I didn't know that that women used to they were 714 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 3: the home Brewers. 715 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were called witches sometimes. 716 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 3: Okay, learn something new. 717 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,960 Speaker 2: You're interviewing us. This is not going. 718 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 3: I can't help it. 719 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 2: This is not the way it's not supposed to go. 720 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 2: One of the things that I love about food in general. 721 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 2: And again you spoke to me with your books as 722 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 2: well as your questions and everything, because you did hit 723 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 2: into like race identity in your book book you released 724 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 2: uh last year and it's still going strong, and I 725 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 2: was able to do it on audible not a sponsor ya, 726 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 2: but that uh, it does so well. You bring in people. 727 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 2: I almost it's almost like a podcast. I was like, WHOA, 728 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,239 Speaker 2: what's happening here? And then with the jazz transitions, I 729 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: was like, yes, I I wanted to ask you about this. 730 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 3: Is the first music that came back with it. I 731 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:25,359 Speaker 3: was like. 732 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 2: The jazz transitions, I'm like, I see what she's doing. 733 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: I see what she's trying to listen to. Being comfortable 734 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 2: before we get like our hearts smashed. I'm fine. But 735 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 2: the one of the things that that connection for me 736 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,440 Speaker 2: and finding my identity is not necessarily just cultural, but 737 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,000 Speaker 2: it's food. It's food based. I really have been triggered 738 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: by food memories, like to the point that I would 739 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 2: have like panic attacks. I'm like, oh no, this is 740 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 2: too real to my pre adoption era, but really like 741 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 2: taking it on and honing and all and realizing, no, 742 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 2: these are things that I know. The memories that I 743 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 2: have of my biological grandmother was that she owned the 744 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 2: snack bar or a restaurant, and I remember distinctly smells 745 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: from that, foods that I ate from that, and I 746 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 2: can't like, I have discovered it as an adult and 747 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 2: it has brought me into such a place that I'm 748 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: like where am I Like, I feel like there are 749 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 2: memories in the back of my head that I can't 750 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 2: quite grasp onto, but I feel it. And this is 751 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 2: this level of knowing that this is part of my 752 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 2: identity and it's because of food, and obviously that connection 753 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,959 Speaker 2: is so deep. You were talking to Eric Nahm about 754 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 2: this and his culture and trying to uh get that 755 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,439 Speaker 2: southern ga I love that was like from Atlanta. Yeah, 756 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,440 Speaker 2: where's the Yeah, you. 757 00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 3: Should find him. I need to be friends. 758 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 2: But like the fact that he does have this connection 759 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 2: of like being you know, a first generation with his 760 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 2: mother who still has very very like dominance in the kitchen. 761 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,239 Speaker 2: But teaching that to him and learning that culture and 762 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 2: learning his idea of being both about being from the 763 00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,200 Speaker 2: US and then also being from current culture. It just 764 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 2: spoke so much. Why do you think these types of 765 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 2: conversations are so important to be had, especially when it 766 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:13,720 Speaker 2: comes to identity. 767 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 3: Well, because they help us understand ourselves and each other 768 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 3: and our complex world. I you know, people say, oh, 769 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 3: we've got to have a conversation about race, or we 770 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 3: have to have a conversation about identity. I'd like us 771 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 3: to get to a point where we can say, we 772 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 3: get to have a conversation because you know, I just 773 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 3: learned eighty five things about you and in that short exchange, 774 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 3: you know, and if we kept going, because you know, 775 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 3: I want to ask you, like when you discovered that 776 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 3: you remembered I can't help myself, but you know when 777 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 3: you realized, oh, I have that food memory. Were you 778 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 3: in a market, you know, were you out in the 779 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 3: world someplace? I mean our food memories the kitchen. I 780 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 3: think the other reason that I think it's important for 781 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,840 Speaker 3: us to have these conversations because it's how we find 782 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 3: each other, it's how we educate ourselves about each other, 783 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 3: it's how we do self exploration. And it's because it's interesting, 784 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 3: because people are very interesting and the kitchen is such 785 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,360 Speaker 3: a interesting space to do that. Also because the kitchen 786 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:30,080 Speaker 3: animates every single one of your senses. It's you know, 787 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 3: it's all there. And so those early kitchen memories are 788 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,359 Speaker 3: not just about food. They're not just about nutrition, They're 789 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,919 Speaker 3: about emotion. Food is linked to emotion, the emotion of 790 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 3: the event, the emotion behind who gave that to you, 791 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,760 Speaker 3: the emotion attached to where you were at in your life, 792 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 3: the emotion around a memory that you just haven't had 793 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 3: enough time to go back and explore. And so that's 794 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 3: why it's it's you know, if we said, tell me 795 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,879 Speaker 3: about your your mama's dining room, a lot of stuff 796 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:06,760 Speaker 3: happens in the dining room, it would be a very 797 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 3: different conversation than tell me about what happens in your kitchen. 798 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 2: It's true. 799 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,200 Speaker 3: And I am sitting on my hands right now because 800 00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 3: I do want to ask you, like, what are you 801 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 3: going to do to go back and and excavate and 802 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:26,279 Speaker 3: cultivate those memories and did your parents ever try to 803 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 3: help you explore your culture through food? 804 00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:29,759 Speaker 2: You know, I want to hold on to that so 805 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 2: that you have to come back. I'm gonna make you 806 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 2: come back. I'm gonna make you get interested. 807 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 3: This is this is me, you know, conversation, I will 808 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:39,279 Speaker 3: interview the two of you. 809 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I love that. Well, I also got I 810 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: had the honor to talk to you on the other 811 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: podcast I do Saver, which is about food. And one 812 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: thing that we were talking about over there is that 813 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people make the mistake of 814 00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:12,840 Speaker 1: divorcing food in the kitchen from everything it that like 815 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,240 Speaker 1: history and identity and gender dynamics and all of that stuff. 816 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: What do you think, through your work and through doing 817 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: this show, how do you think we can see all 818 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: of that through those conversations and how does it shape 819 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,640 Speaker 1: us and to who we are when we become adults. 820 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 3: Well, I hope that when people hear these episodes that 821 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 3: they wonder about their own lives. And we now are 822 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 3: creating a space, and I know that people do because 823 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 3: we've created a space where people can send their own 824 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 3: audiograms or video messages to YMK at Higher Round Productions 825 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 3: Dot com and you know, we listen to them tell 826 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 3: their own stories. And so I hope that it's like 827 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,400 Speaker 3: the book. Also that if you read the book or 828 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 3: listen to the book, if you listen to the podcast 829 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,759 Speaker 3: or eventually watch it, because we're going to be doing 830 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 3: video episodes. Also now that you will have a greater 831 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 3: curiosity about your own space, that you might pick up 832 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 3: your phone and call your cousin. Do you remember? You 833 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,440 Speaker 3: know this, so you might if you're lucky enough to 834 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 3: still have living parents, that you might want to talk 835 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,880 Speaker 3: to them, that you might sort of explore. Okay, is 836 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,560 Speaker 3: this why I keep a can of bacon grease next 837 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:32,280 Speaker 3: to the stove because my mom did or do I 838 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,840 Speaker 3: never ever, ever, ever ever want to do this because 839 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 3: I don't want to do what my mom did. I 840 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,359 Speaker 3: don't want to actually follow that path. So I hope 841 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 3: it leads to to exploration, you know, perhaps more listening 842 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,240 Speaker 3: of course, and more reading of you know, deeper exploration 843 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 3: of the projects, but also a little bit of self 844 00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:59,280 Speaker 3: self exploration. I think that's that is the highest compliment 845 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,520 Speaker 3: I get when people say, you know, it made me 846 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 3: really think about my own space, and you know, now 847 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 3: I want to go back and explore my own kitchen. 848 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 3: And one of the things that we hear over and 849 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 3: over again on the show is I've never said this before. 850 00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:18,680 Speaker 3: I've never told anyone this before. We learn about things 851 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,520 Speaker 3: that people haven't talked about before. Conan O'Brien tell us 852 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,280 Speaker 3: this great story. It's one of the stories that really 853 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 3: sticks with me. His mother, Conan O'Brien, the comedian late 854 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,880 Speaker 3: night host now head of Team Coco his podcast Empire 855 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,760 Speaker 3: and Really is an Empire, grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts, 856 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,960 Speaker 3: and his mother. They have working classroots, and his mother 857 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 3: did well in school and went off to fancy university 858 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,959 Speaker 3: and became one of the first women at a white 859 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 3: shoe law firm in Boston, Massachusetts, and excelled there and 860 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,160 Speaker 3: did really well, and while at the same time raising 861 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 3: like a passle of kids back home, you know, Irish 862 00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 3: Catholic family, and I imagine, I'm you know, the juggle 863 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,080 Speaker 3: for her must have been incredible, right, because the expectations, 864 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,560 Speaker 3: you know, for her to you know, maybe I don't 865 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 3: know if she felt the expectation to be perfect, but 866 00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:14,439 Speaker 3: there's a lot of months that had to be fed. 867 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 3: While you also definitely had the expectation to be perfect 868 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,120 Speaker 3: in a law firm where there weren't a lot of 869 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,240 Speaker 3: other women. And he tells this great story about how 870 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 3: she brought the kids to work and they got to 871 00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 3: see her office and how proud she was for them 872 00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,960 Speaker 3: to see that. But he also remembered this story about 873 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:35,920 Speaker 3: how she was and he just recently lost both of 874 00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 3: his parents, and so it really means a lot to 875 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 3: me that he shared the story with us that she 876 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,440 Speaker 3: was not allowed to be in the boardroom when they 877 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,600 Speaker 3: had meetings, lunch meetings with big clients, but she was 878 00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 3: so respected that they needed her close by, so she 879 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 3: would eat at a card table outside the boardroom. And 880 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 3: Conan is telling the story and it's and it's kind 881 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 3: of funny. He's talking about, well, they're you know, lawsuit. 882 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,760 Speaker 3: I mean that would in today's environment, you probably couldn't 883 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,479 Speaker 3: do that. But he mentioned something that I've always thought 884 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 3: of is that he said there were few people, few 885 00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 3: lawyers had such respect for her. I think her name 886 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 3: is Ruth, that they would no, I'm good, I'm going 887 00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,480 Speaker 3: to go and eat with her outside and if you 888 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 3: need me, I'll be outside with her. And I love 889 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,320 Speaker 3: that he shared that story. I love that she shared 890 00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:38,000 Speaker 3: it with him because she wanted him to know that 891 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,680 Speaker 3: the hill was pretty steep for her. And I think 892 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:43,160 Speaker 3: that she was conveying to him, at least the message 893 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,600 Speaker 3: I took from it, and I shared the story with 894 00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,080 Speaker 3: my own kids who are adults. He said, be the 895 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,560 Speaker 3: person who gets up and goes and has has lunch 896 00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 3: with her, you know, because that's the real power. The 897 00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,399 Speaker 3: people who were in the room excluding her, they think 898 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 3: they have the power. The real power is to change 899 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:02,239 Speaker 3: the dynamic and be the person who gets up and says, 900 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,879 Speaker 3: you know, I'm good. I'm going to go out lunch 901 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 3: with her if she's smart enough to be outside of 902 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 3: the room, because we need her. She's the one who 903 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,160 Speaker 3: deserves to be in my She deserves my company, I 904 00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 3: deserve and I'm honored to be with her. You know. 905 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 3: That's not a I don't. I don't think Conan's sharing 906 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 3: that story in late night, you know. And and so 907 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:23,839 Speaker 3: I'm glad that we have an opportunity to mine those 908 00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,840 Speaker 3: kinds of stories so that we understand a little bit 909 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 3: about this person who makes us laugh, but also that 910 00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 3: we just are able to send those really little intimate 911 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:40,760 Speaker 3: moments out into the world to better understand our culture. 912 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,359 Speaker 3: I mean, right now, we do this with primarily people 913 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 3: who have a certain amount of acclaim or their marquee figures. 914 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,720 Speaker 3: But that's why I wanted to open up the inbox 915 00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:52,359 Speaker 3: because I much like I do with the Race Card 916 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,000 Speaker 3: Project and I did in the book Our Hidden Conversations, 917 00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:55,360 Speaker 3: I want to hear from all kinds of people. I 918 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,480 Speaker 3: know someone, for instance, his mom had a kitchen and 919 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:01,880 Speaker 3: it was a stop in the Green Book, you know, 920 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,319 Speaker 3: the Green Book that people used when they traveled in 921 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 3: the South as people of color, and they couldn't go 922 00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,880 Speaker 3: and she had a stop in the Green Book on Memphis. 923 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,439 Speaker 3: I would love you know, I'm trying to get him 924 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,799 Speaker 3: to record his story because I mean imagine and he 925 00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 3: would help her peel potatoes and he would chop up 926 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,520 Speaker 3: stuff with her. And a lot of famous people went 927 00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 3: through Memphis and they couldn't go to restaurants or hotels, 928 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,000 Speaker 3: and so they'd wind up eating in her kitchen. And 929 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:29,239 Speaker 3: I think things like that probably happened all over the place. 930 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:34,319 Speaker 2: Well this because this, Yeah, so I'm gonna have to 931 00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 2: tap in before you leave us, because you are a 932 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:41,279 Speaker 2: masterclass in interviewing and story collecting, which is why I 933 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 2: love that title because being on a podcast, you know, 934 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 2: and doing this interviewing is a skill, is a talent 935 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:52,960 Speaker 2: that is difficult to do sometimes, especially when trying to 936 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,520 Speaker 2: get that personal story, that depth that you want to 937 00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,759 Speaker 2: see this person. So can you advise us, oh master 938 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,080 Speaker 2: interview in his story collecting, on how to do a 939 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 2: good interview? 940 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 3: Well, I think curiosity is a superpower. Yeah, So you 941 00:53:09,239 --> 00:53:14,880 Speaker 3: have to be curious. It helps to be informed, It 942 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 3: helps to have an idea of an arc of the conversation, 943 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 3: but to then have a complete willingness to throw that 944 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,520 Speaker 3: out the window. So you go where the story takes you. 945 00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 3: But I think a big part of it. And I'm 946 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 3: going to be careful about how I say this because 947 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,200 Speaker 3: I don't want to impune anybody. But you know, we 948 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 3: all listen to a lot of podcasts, we all watch 949 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 3: a lot of interviews. I think one of the things 950 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:42,400 Speaker 3: that people sometimes lose track of is a good interviewer 951 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:47,160 Speaker 3: gets out of the way. You know, you're I'm there 952 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 3: to make room for someone else to tell their story, 953 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 3: and so I keep the balloon up in the air, 954 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 3: but I try to recede. I try to pull back 955 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:05,560 Speaker 3: so they and the spaces and and to think about. 956 00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,080 Speaker 3: You know, some of the best answers come from the 957 00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:12,359 Speaker 3: oddest questions. I just I don't know why this came 958 00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,680 Speaker 3: into my head, but I was interviewing Dave Brubeck, the 959 00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:20,320 Speaker 3: jazz musician, and I was able to do it in person. 960 00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:21,880 Speaker 3: And as I was talking to them, and I realized, 961 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 3: you know, as you get older, your hands tighten up, 962 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,760 Speaker 3: you know. And I said, tell me about your hands. 963 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,799 Speaker 3: They said, no one has ever asked me that he's 964 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,440 Speaker 3: a pianist. You know, no one has ever. So, you know, 965 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:38,279 Speaker 3: to think about that sort of simple thing and sometimes 966 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:43,680 Speaker 3: those yield the best, the best answers, I mean, the 967 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:49,319 Speaker 3: crazy idea, tell me about your mom's kitchen, to go 968 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,279 Speaker 3: go where it sounds like star trek, to go where 969 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 3: no man has gone. 970 00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,520 Speaker 2: But but you know. 971 00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,080 Speaker 3: Think of the questions that no one is asking. 972 00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you so much for submit. I feel 973 00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: like you to like work advice. 974 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,239 Speaker 2: Sorry, I had to get it while she was here. Yeah, 975 00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 2: this is invaluable. 976 00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:11,760 Speaker 3: Well, there's one other thing I would say is stop 977 00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 3: talking sometimes, you know, especially in a difficult moment, because 978 00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:21,880 Speaker 3: if it's difficult, your instinct is to fill void with 979 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,720 Speaker 3: your voice, and sometimes it's hard to do, but that's 980 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 3: be the one that wishes for It's like a game 981 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:30,680 Speaker 3: of chicken. 982 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:47,000 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for being here. I it's 983 00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,360 Speaker 1: amazing when you were talking about you know, quote unquote 984 00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:54,239 Speaker 1: simple question that has so much to it. I've like 985 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:59,000 Speaker 1: honestly fighting back tears that Conan O'Brien story because you 986 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,760 Speaker 1: can relate so much to it and you can connect 987 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,720 Speaker 1: so much to it through these stories. And we got 988 00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of a teaser for your next season 989 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 1: of Your Mama's Kitchen, and I'm very, very excited. But 990 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,480 Speaker 1: is there anything that you want to tease or that 991 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:19,319 Speaker 1: you're excited about that's coming up? 992 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,120 Speaker 3: Oh? With the first three episodes are just gold. It's 993 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:29,480 Speaker 3: Stephen and Ebbie Colbert and you know, in their partnership 994 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,920 Speaker 3: and they just love food and they're so funny and 995 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 3: they're so funny together. Ina Garten, have you read her book? 996 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:40,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 997 00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,840 Speaker 3: I highly recommend it to be ready when the luck happens. 998 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 3: She had a very I mean, for someone who brings 999 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 3: so much joy to people, she had a very unhappy 1000 00:56:49,640 --> 00:56:55,600 Speaker 3: childhood and emotionally violent and sometimes physically violent. And she 1001 00:56:55,719 --> 00:57:00,319 Speaker 3: overcame that and she found someone who understood her, and 1002 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,920 Speaker 3: she writes with clarity and honesty, and it's a great 1003 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,720 Speaker 3: book and it's a great conversation. And she is someone 1004 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 3: who just broke molds and created new paths and I 1005 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,600 Speaker 3: think people will really dig that. And we sat down 1006 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 3: with John Legend in his Creation House, Life Goals. He 1007 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,080 Speaker 3: has a house that he and Chrissy don't live in, 1008 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,000 Speaker 3: but it's where they create. She creates recipes, he creates music, 1009 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,439 Speaker 3: and he too had a very difficult childhood that he's 1010 00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,120 Speaker 3: only now just starting to open up about. And so 1011 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:42,120 Speaker 3: you understand not just John Legend as an artist. He 1012 00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,400 Speaker 3: is a beautiful man inside and out. I've got to 1013 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,120 Speaker 3: know him over many years. But you understand that great, 1014 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,360 Speaker 3: big heart of his, you know, because you realize that 1015 00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:52,200 Speaker 3: it was broken pretty early and he had to figure 1016 00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 3: out how to put it back together. And it's almost 1017 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:58,120 Speaker 3: like I can't remember the name of the art, but 1018 00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:00,160 Speaker 3: the Chinese principle of the break a piece of and 1019 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:01,919 Speaker 3: then you put it back together, using gold to put 1020 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,760 Speaker 3: the pieces back together. It's almost like that represents what 1021 00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:08,320 Speaker 3: happened to him. That is, his heart is stronger, his 1022 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 3: soul is richer, his life is stronger because of the brokenness. 1023 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:15,360 Speaker 3: It's there's strength in that brokenness. And all of this 1024 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,080 Speaker 3: talked about, you know, through the prism of the Kitchen 1025 00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 3: and in every episode. I guess I should remind people 1026 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,000 Speaker 3: that everyone we talk to gives us a delicious recipe. Yes, 1027 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:29,120 Speaker 3: so it's going to be a great season. We also 1028 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,600 Speaker 3: talked to Big Freda and Wendell Pierce and Susan Orlean 1029 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:39,560 Speaker 3: and Lashana Lynch who is in Jamaican and lives in Britain, 1030 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,240 Speaker 3: and she, you know, talked about life growing up there. 1031 00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,000 Speaker 3: It's good stuff. We serve up some delicious every week 1032 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,440 Speaker 3: starting January twenty eighth, So pull up the seat and 1033 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:49,479 Speaker 3: join us every week. 1034 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,760 Speaker 1: Yes, I heard there's mac and cheese involved, and I'm 1035 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:53,960 Speaker 1: incredibly excited. 1036 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,000 Speaker 3: Yes, and he claims it's the best mac and cheese 1037 00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:57,919 Speaker 3: on the planet. 1038 00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:03,200 Speaker 1: So I will be very happy to test that theory. 1039 00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 3: Maybe we should have a mac and cheese Sunday where we, like, 1040 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,080 Speaker 3: everybody like we can, could we recruit you to do that. 1041 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,880 Speaker 3: It's like in early February, everybody, everybody makes John Legends 1042 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,720 Speaker 3: mac and cheese on an appointed Sunday, and then we 1043 00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:17,080 Speaker 3: all should we do. 1044 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:21,120 Speaker 2: That haven't you done all these recipes or or have 1045 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 2: you had favorites and any of these recipes? 1046 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:26,280 Speaker 3: I wrote test the recipes, and I do have a 1047 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:31,280 Speaker 3: few favorites. Michelle Obama's red rice is a banger. Okay, 1048 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,960 Speaker 3: is a banger. It is really good hot or cold 1049 00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 3: that's worked its way into the rotation. Andy Garcia's pocacy 1050 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:48,520 Speaker 3: took a lot of time. I mean it was a 1051 00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:54,640 Speaker 3: labor intensive, labor of love, but the results were crazy good. 1052 00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,520 Speaker 3: I mean, my family is like, and then you put 1053 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:57,400 Speaker 3: raisins in there? 1054 00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,320 Speaker 2: What what? Wait? 1055 01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 3: What? Yeah? But you put the raisins in and they 1056 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 3: stay and they stop up all the like the wine 1057 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:09,400 Speaker 3: and the marinate and everything else, and they become these 1058 01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,400 Speaker 3: little flavor bombs. They reconstitute and turn into almost like grapes, 1059 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,040 Speaker 3: and so they you know, they're dried up. I mean 1060 01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 3: that's what they are, dried grapes, right, And they turned 1061 01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,480 Speaker 3: back into grapes, but the filling is got out of 1062 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:25,920 Speaker 3: the marinate, and so when you bite them, this little 1063 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:30,480 Speaker 3: explosion of deliciousness. So that that was a real winner. 1064 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:37,240 Speaker 3: Abby Wombox mom makes this pasta dish, which my family 1065 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:44,080 Speaker 3: really loves. There were the snow cookies that Nicole avant 1066 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,240 Speaker 3: or that her mother makes were a big hit for 1067 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,520 Speaker 3: the holidays. So yeah, the food has been the food 1068 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:54,560 Speaker 3: has been spot on. For the mac and cheese. My 1069 01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:56,600 Speaker 3: son now makes the mac and cheese and our family, 1070 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,480 Speaker 3: all my kids good and he has taken over the 1071 01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 3: mac and cheese. So he's actually going to make the 1072 01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,640 Speaker 3: John Legend mac and cheese coming up. And I actually 1073 01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,160 Speaker 3: liked the idea, though I think I'm gonna we may 1074 01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,400 Speaker 3: need to run with that, is to like everyone do, 1075 01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,440 Speaker 3: because you remember Samin Nosraat did the big Lasagna where 1076 01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,960 Speaker 3: everyone made her lasagna during COVID at the same time, 1077 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,640 Speaker 3: and that's the first time I made lasagnah is when 1078 01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,120 Speaker 3: I did that. And so her chicken soup also, she 1079 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,520 Speaker 3: did a Persian chicken soup that was super lemonye like, 1080 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:32,520 Speaker 3: like so much that your cheeks kind and she then 1081 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:36,520 Speaker 3: layered it with a little bit of ghee. Hmm. Yeah. 1082 01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:39,160 Speaker 3: It's it's you know, it's winter and much of the 1083 01:01:39,160 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 3: country right now, and that's a that's a really good 1084 01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,400 Speaker 3: one for this time of the year. 1085 01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,480 Speaker 2: I'm getting very hungry. 1086 01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:51,360 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, one of the risk of the job of 1087 01:01:51,720 --> 01:01:57,760 Speaker 1: food journalists. Yeah, yes, well, I am so down for 1088 01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:58,640 Speaker 1: mac and cheese. 1089 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:01,400 Speaker 3: Let us know today, Okay, I'll let you know. We'll 1090 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,680 Speaker 3: pick a Sunday, maybe like Super Bowl Sunday or right 1091 01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 3: before super Bowl. But yeah, we definitely let's do that. Yeah, 1092 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,800 Speaker 3: and I think John and Chrissy would probably we'll recruit 1093 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,520 Speaker 3: them also, obviously. 1094 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:18,400 Speaker 1: Yes, we know you're so busy. I have so many 1095 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,160 Speaker 1: other questions. 1096 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:21,160 Speaker 3: Would well, you know, maybe I'll come back one day. 1097 01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:23,080 Speaker 1: Samantha has already laid the track. 1098 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:25,920 Speaker 2: I'm trying. I'm trying. Look, we have so many things 1099 01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:27,480 Speaker 2: to talk about. I'm just saying. 1100 01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,480 Speaker 1: Because I feel like I wanted to talk about price 1101 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,480 Speaker 1: dynamics because a lot of times I think when people 1102 01:02:33,560 --> 01:02:36,560 Speaker 1: talk about their mama's kitchen, there's always like she made 1103 01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:39,920 Speaker 1: this cast role that was just cans and stuff. But 1104 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:45,040 Speaker 1: then there's also the very labor intensive things that takes 1105 01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:50,080 Speaker 1: so long. So yes, definitely please come back. Is there 1106 01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:53,600 Speaker 1: any where can the good listeners find you? Is there 1107 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:55,280 Speaker 1: anything else you want to shout out? 1108 01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,680 Speaker 3: Well, you know they can. They can find us wherever 1109 01:02:57,720 --> 01:03:00,160 Speaker 3: you your mama's kitchen, you can find wherever you listen 1110 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 3: to podcast. Our Hidden Conversations is sold in bookstores across America. 1111 01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,959 Speaker 3: It's still it's you know, was released a year ago, 1112 01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,520 Speaker 3: almost a year ago this week, and people are still 1113 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,880 Speaker 3: finding it and elevating it. I always encourage people to 1114 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:15,960 Speaker 3: listen as well as read it because you want to 1115 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,080 Speaker 3: see it, because the pictures are beautiful, but the audio, 1116 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,520 Speaker 3: many of the people are telling their own stories. So 1117 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,440 Speaker 3: when you when Samuel said it felt like a podcast, 1118 01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:25,400 Speaker 3: it was meant to feel like a podcast. I mean, 1119 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,520 Speaker 3: I really wanted to create a real experience. And if 1120 01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:29,760 Speaker 3: you've listened to this and you thought, you know, I 1121 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,160 Speaker 3: have six words I want to send, you can find 1122 01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:33,160 Speaker 3: us at the Racecard Project dot com. You can send 1123 01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:36,840 Speaker 3: us your six words story. I am. I write columns 1124 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 3: for MSNBC, and I show up, you know, occasionally sharing 1125 01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,840 Speaker 3: my thoughts on air, so you can find me lots 1126 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,880 Speaker 3: of different ways. I as what's the fake back to 1127 01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:47,160 Speaker 3: all fields? You know? 1128 01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,240 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, thank you, thank you, thank you so 1129 01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:53,120 Speaker 1: much for being here. 1130 01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:54,560 Speaker 3: I have love talking to both of you. 1131 01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:55,240 Speaker 1: Thank you. 1132 01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 2: Hope we do it again, yes please. 1133 01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,320 Speaker 1: And that brings us to the end of our interview 1134 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:06,280 Speaker 1: with Michelle Norris. It was so delightful, if so lovely. 1135 01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:08,440 Speaker 1: Hopefully we're going to get to do this mac and 1136 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,040 Speaker 1: cheese thing. I am so. 1137 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:12,880 Speaker 2: In Yeah, I don't think I'll be good at it. 1138 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:14,600 Speaker 2: I might have to put my partner onto it, because 1139 01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:16,680 Speaker 2: he does a really good mac and cheese, except for 1140 01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:21,080 Speaker 2: I can't trust him because he likes to deviate the 1141 01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,160 Speaker 2: actual recipe and that drives me crazy, Like it's both 1142 01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:24,920 Speaker 2: good and bad. 1143 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,680 Speaker 1: I think that would be interesting to talk about though, 1144 01:04:27,720 --> 01:04:29,600 Speaker 1: because we kind of touched on that when she was 1145 01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,440 Speaker 1: talking about her son making the mac and cheese and 1146 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:37,280 Speaker 1: like the yeah, the gender equity when it comes to 1147 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 1: social media and cooking, that would be interesting. If you 1148 01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:45,640 Speaker 1: made one and he made one. 1149 01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,880 Speaker 2: Mine would stick to the recipe for like absolute I 1150 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,680 Speaker 2: don't like my first time, especially making it something for 1151 01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:56,520 Speaker 2: the first time. I follow the recipe strictly, and then 1152 01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:58,400 Speaker 2: after that I'll see what I want to do. 1153 01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:03,280 Speaker 1: But he all over the place, and I am like, 1154 01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:04,080 Speaker 1: what do I have? 1155 01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,880 Speaker 2: I mean, And that's talent though, I've been talking about that, 1156 01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:10,240 Speaker 2: the talent of being able to create from what you 1157 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,440 Speaker 2: have but actually make like intensive recipes with like oh 1158 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:17,160 Speaker 2: I have these beans and this kind of protein, I'm 1159 01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,040 Speaker 2: gonna do this broth. Then maybe I could add this 1160 01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:21,480 Speaker 2: that's in it because I also was thinking about the 1161 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:23,800 Speaker 2: fact that she had people coming on sharing family recipes. 1162 01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't have everything I have either comes 1163 01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,400 Speaker 2: from another recipe or comes from my mom never teaching 1164 01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:33,720 Speaker 2: me something like even I don't know she could. She 1165 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,320 Speaker 2: doesn't know how to do that. But most of her recipes, 1166 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,240 Speaker 2: as I mentioned, it was like an easy to go 1167 01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:41,960 Speaker 2: box dinner or something that's just simple enough because she 1168 01:05:42,000 --> 01:05:44,400 Speaker 2: was feeding so many of us. But like, yeah, we 1169 01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:45,360 Speaker 2: don't have that. 1170 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:51,560 Speaker 1: Right, And honestly, if we had had more time, I 1171 01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:57,920 Speaker 1: would have loved to hear your conversation expand about because 1172 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,760 Speaker 1: you have such an interesting like southern Korea. 1173 01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:03,760 Speaker 2: Well, like I told you, Like in the interview, we 1174 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,880 Speaker 2: talk about Eric Nahm, who is from He says Atlanta. 1175 01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,280 Speaker 2: I have a like he says, on the outskirts of Atlanta, 1176 01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:13,360 Speaker 2: but his mom cooks all Korean cuisine to the fact 1177 01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,760 Speaker 2: that she flies to Korea, gets supplies and comes back wow. 1178 01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,400 Speaker 2: But then he grew up in Atlanta and has his 1179 01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,200 Speaker 2: own style. That's both of those things. So I really 1180 01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:26,640 Speaker 2: love bad perspective, and I love that that's common enough 1181 01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,880 Speaker 2: because we also, like Edward Lee I was talking about 1182 01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,920 Speaker 2: the cooking show that's the Korean cooking show and he 1183 01:06:34,960 --> 01:06:36,840 Speaker 2: was on there. But he we went to his restaurant 1184 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:40,040 Speaker 2: and I realized way later who he was. I was like, oh, 1185 01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:41,880 Speaker 2: because I was very critical at first. I was like, 1186 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:44,680 Speaker 2: who is this dude? Combining Korean in Southern and DC. 1187 01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,800 Speaker 2: Who is this? And it turned out to be Edward Lee, 1188 01:06:48,160 --> 01:06:50,200 Speaker 2: who was from Kentucky. I was like, Okay, that makes 1189 01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:52,880 Speaker 2: a lot of sense. Yeah, and I felt a certain way. 1190 01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:55,640 Speaker 2: I was like, who is this? Who's representing my life 1191 01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:57,880 Speaker 2: in a restaurant? 1192 01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:02,760 Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing, uh is we talked about it 1193 01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,720 Speaker 1: in this episode, but all the histories and identity and 1194 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,040 Speaker 1: all that stuff. But also like I do that too, 1195 01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:13,520 Speaker 1: where I'm like, who are you making this food? I'm 1196 01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:15,000 Speaker 1: just curious does it. 1197 01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:18,240 Speaker 2: Come from your heart? Does it come from money? But yeah, 1198 01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,439 Speaker 2: so those are the conversations that man, I think there's 1199 01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,360 Speaker 2: so many subjects that we could come on to, and 1200 01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,960 Speaker 2: we were all because essentially she's not necessarily like a 1201 01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,720 Speaker 2: food journalist, like she's there for the stories and it 1202 01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:32,440 Speaker 2: happens to be about food, Like it's it's very interesting 1203 01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,320 Speaker 2: because I was talking if you get a chance listeners, 1204 01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,160 Speaker 2: and I think we probably should do her book as 1205 01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:42,200 Speaker 2: a book. Like I said, it's listening to it is 1206 01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,000 Speaker 2: a different, whole different scenario because she is doing interviews 1207 01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,160 Speaker 2: because she didn't want to tell their story for them, 1208 01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:52,360 Speaker 2: and so she had different actors or different people come 1209 01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:56,000 Speaker 2: in and represent their own six words story that interjects 1210 01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,640 Speaker 2: and then it's beautiful how she does it with her 1211 01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:02,320 Speaker 2: own research and work behind it, So definitely worth to listen. 1212 01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,920 Speaker 2: They do have in the audible or audio version the 1213 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,240 Speaker 2: pictures that come with it, so they're also gorgeous. But 1214 01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:11,280 Speaker 2: I think I'm going to have to pick up that 1215 01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:12,200 Speaker 2: one up soon. 1216 01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:18,200 Speaker 1: I think. So it's amazing how quickly she and the 1217 01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:21,719 Speaker 1: people she interviews will move you to tears. I could 1218 01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:22,880 Speaker 1: not describe. 1219 01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:25,120 Speaker 3: Wow. 1220 01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,519 Speaker 1: But there are stories we all can connect or relate 1221 01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:32,479 Speaker 1: to in some way that I think that's why they're 1222 01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:39,560 Speaker 1: so powerful. I would also say check out if you 1223 01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:43,760 Speaker 1: want to learn more about her history in food journalism 1224 01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:45,880 Speaker 1: or why she was interested in it, check out the 1225 01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:52,599 Speaker 1: episode I did over on Saver with Lauren interviewing Michelle Norris, 1226 01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: because it was great. It was a great interview, but also, yeah, 1227 01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:59,160 Speaker 1: she's done all of these things. She's got the second 1228 01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:04,160 Speaker 1: season coming out out of Your Mama's Kitchen and it's 1229 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:08,480 Speaker 1: really beautiful and it's amazing, so please check it out listeners, 1230 01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:12,640 Speaker 1: and if you would like to contact us. If you 1231 01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,759 Speaker 1: have any thoughts about Your Mama's Kitchen, you can contact 1232 01:09:16,800 --> 01:09:20,639 Speaker 1: Michelle she gave you the information, but you can also 1233 01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:24,519 Speaker 1: contact us if you would like. You can email us 1234 01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:28,839 Speaker 1: at Hello at Stuffmenever Told You dot com or Stuff 1235 01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:33,160 Speaker 1: Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. Both work. You 1236 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:35,919 Speaker 1: can find us on Blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast 1237 01:09:36,280 --> 01:09:40,280 Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff When Ever Told You. 1238 01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:42,599 Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube. We have a tea public store, 1239 01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,280 Speaker 1: and we have a book you can get wherever you 1240 01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,960 Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always too, our super producer Christina, 1241 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,679 Speaker 1: our executive Bruce and Maya, and our contruger Joey. Thank 1242 01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,320 Speaker 1: you and thanks to you for listening Stuff One Never 1243 01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:55,320 Speaker 1: Told You Just Prediction by Heart Radio. For more podcasts 1244 01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,479 Speaker 1: from my Heart Radio, you can check out your ieartradio app, 1245 01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:05,240 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or reever you listen to your favorite show.