1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:01,720 Speaker 1: If you can only have five rounds in your gun, 2 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: this gun probably isn't your gun. But if you want 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: this gun, we'll sell you one, and we absolutely would 4 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: provide it a five round magazine. It's the big take 5 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio. I'm West Gasova 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: today how small gunmakers are testing loopholes in gun control 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: laws in a string of big cases. Since two tho eight, 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court has ruled that Americans have 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: the right to keep guns in their homes for protection 10 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: and to carry them in public. But the Court has 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: also been careful to say this Second Amendment right to 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: bear arms is not absolute. The federal government and the 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: states can require background checks in gun licenses, and they 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: can play certain restrictions on who can buy guns and 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: where they can be carried. States can also limit or 16 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: outlaw certain weapons for public safety. It's that last part 17 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. Several states do ban the 18 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: sale of some kinds of guns, like a R fifteen 19 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: style rifles that often are used in the mass shootings 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: that occur almost daily in the US at least five 21 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 1: hundred eighty nine mass shootings so far this year alone, 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: and courts have largely upheld state laws limiting which guns 23 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: can be sold. Now comes a new way gun manufacturers 24 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: are testing the limits of these laws. Later on you'll 25 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: meet Rob Pinkett's who you heard at the very top. 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: He's a gun rights advocate who's also bringing his first 27 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: gun to market. But first to explain the rapid rise 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: of small gun makers, I'm joined by Jason Grotto, an 29 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: investigative reporter for Bloomberg in Chicago. Jason, thanks for being here. 30 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me, Jason, you and your 31 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: reporting partner Mike Smith have written a really interesting story 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: about gun manufacturers and an increasingly popular way to make 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: and buy guns. When we think about the gun control debate, 34 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: a lot of it centers around should there be more 35 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: regulation of who can buy? Should there be background checks 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: if you buy a gun on the internet or at 37 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: a gun show. But you're writing about something completely different, 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: which is not about buying a gun, but about buying 39 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: a gun in different pieces and putting it together yourself. Yeah, 40 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: that's correct. So one of the thrusts of the story 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: that we've done is the sort of do it yourself 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: phenomenon within the gun industry and a lot of its 43 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: centers around a R fifteen style rifles, which are you know, 44 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: some consider them depending on which side of the debate 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: you're on, Some will call them assault rifles, others would 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: call them modern sporting rifles. But these are guns that 47 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: are component based. Core of the gun is what's called 48 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: the lower receiver. This is the piece sort of in 49 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: the middle that houses the trigger, the firing pin. It's 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: where the pistol grip or other type of grip will 51 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: be inserted into, and it's threaded. It has threaded pieces 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: that receive other parts of the guns, such as the 53 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: barrel where the bullet comes out of, and the stock, 54 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: which is sort of the shoulder piece that leans up 55 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: against your shoulder for when you fire it. And so 56 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: these guns are made to be modular that you can 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: mix and match pieces. It's not like you have to 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: buy it as it would come from a manufacturer. That's correct, 59 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 1: you can buy it whole, but they come apart very easily, 60 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: and there are technologies inside the gun that make it 61 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: incredibly accurate and easy to shoot. So, for example, inside 62 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: the stock going into the receiver, the upper what they 63 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: would call the upper part of the receiver um is 64 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: something called the buffer weight, which kind of keeps the 65 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: guns steady when you fire it, so you don't have 66 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: that kind of kick that you might associate with like 67 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 1: a shotgun or something. So there's all kinds of things 68 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: that play here that make these guns, you know, incredibly popular, 69 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: and because their component based. One of the things that 70 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: we found is that smaller manufacturers have really gotten into 71 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 1: this game, and the air fifteen has become a very 72 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 1: popular firearm. Of course, we hear about it quite a 73 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: bit because it is sometimes used in mass shootings, and 74 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: among people who buy them, they're popular because they're relatively 75 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: inexpensive there as you say, very accurate and um, you know, 76 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: somewhat easy to use, and they're abundantly available. That's right. 77 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: If you look at the federal statistics on gun manufacturing 78 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: whole completed rifles, the number of those has fallen thirty 79 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: six percent since two thousand, but the number of lower 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: receivers has grown four thousand percent. So this market has 81 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: really exploded. And you're exactly right that one of the 82 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: things driving it is this sort of ability to soup 83 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: up your firearms. So it's it's not unlike you know, 84 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: guys souping up their motorcycle um only now they're souping up, 85 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: you know, these firearms. So there's from the enthusiast perspective 86 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 1: why people would want to buy these, why the market 87 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: is exploding for them. But from a law enforcement perspective, 88 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: this kind of do it yourself popularity has all kinds 89 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: of challenges, doesn't it It can. I think the biggest 90 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: issue in terms of public safety, I guess you would 91 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 1: call it is how lethal these types of weapons are. 92 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: So some of the folks who advocate for stricter gun 93 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: laws would say, well, you can't have a Formula one 94 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: race car on the highway. You can still have a 95 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: driver's life since you can still get a car, but 96 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: you can't drive, you know, a race car on the highway. 97 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: So if you look at mass shootings, one of the 98 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: things you'll find is, you know, handguns are involved in 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: most mass shootings and most shootings in general, and there 100 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 1: are a lot more handguns out in circulation than assault rifles, 101 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 1: so called the sault rifles. However, if you look at 102 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: data on mass shootings from every town, I should say 103 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: here that Michael Bloomberg, the majority owner of Bloomberg LP, 104 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: the parent company of Bloomberg News founded and helps fund 105 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,599 Speaker 1: every Town for Gun Safety, which advocates for universal background checks. 106 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: You know, if you look at the data from every Town, 107 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: what you see is that assault rifles and high capacity 108 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: magazines that go with them, they account for eighteen percent 109 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: of the mass shootings in the US since two thousand 110 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: and nine, but thirty percent of the deaths and seventy 111 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: five percent of the wounded. So what is the argument 112 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: in favor of it given all that set effects. So 113 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: the folks in the industry and gun enthusiasts would say, 114 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: and they do say, literally, you cannot legislate away evil, 115 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: that there is evil in the world. And uh, that 116 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: comes amid the Second Amendment, which they read in a 117 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: certain way that says you cannot curtail our right to 118 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: own firearms. And that's really the debate is how far 119 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: does the Second Amendment go and what right does government 120 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: have to limit something that is in sort of the 121 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: core constitutional provisions. Jason and your story, you write that 122 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 1: the ability to buy a gun in its individual parts 123 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: and assemble it yourself has enabled people in some states 124 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: to get around state laws which prohibit people from buying 125 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: weapons like this. Yeah, so take a state like Massachusetts. 126 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: In Massachusetts, they have a so called ban on assault weapons, 127 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: and they literally list the weapons that you cannot I 128 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: you cannot buy an A R fifteen, you cannot buy 129 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: an A K forty seven. But what they say is 130 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: you can't buy them whole. What you can do is 131 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: you can buy a lower receiver. It has a serial number, 132 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: and before you purchase it, you have to go through 133 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: a background check. And so it's the same as buying 134 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: a gun under federal law. That lower receiver, the part 135 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: of the rifle that accepts all the other parts is 136 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: a fire is the firearm. It's the only thing that 137 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: they really track, and that's because without it the heart 138 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: of the gun. Without that, you can't do anything. That 139 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: is the critical component. And so the part that they 140 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: think should be regulated under federal statute. Yes, in other 141 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: countries they regulate the barrels or other parts of the gun, 142 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: but here in the US we regulate the lower receiver. 143 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: They do not regulate the barrel or the stock, and 144 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: that's not tracked at all. So you need to go 145 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: through a background check to get the lower receiver. But 146 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: then you can buy all the other parts and no 147 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: one would ever know and there's no tracking of that 148 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: at all, and so that's exactly what people do and 149 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: that's then completely legal to do. Yep. And then is 150 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: that gun legal in Massachusetts for someone to own it? Is? 151 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: In your story, you write about a small manufacturer of 152 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: the kinds of weapons we're talking about here, and he 153 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: originally was going to become a licensed gun dealer but 154 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: then took a different turn. Why do you do that? Yeah, 155 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: So that's kind of the through line of our story. 156 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: As a company called dark Storm Industries, which is based 157 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: on Long Island, and their original purpose was to have 158 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: a gun shop. And two weeks before they started, however, 159 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,839 Speaker 1: the state of New York passed what's called the New 160 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,599 Speaker 1: York Safe Act, which restricts, you know, what kind of 161 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: assault rifles you can have you can sell, and that 162 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: was what this company was planning on doing. They were 163 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: planning on selling those kinds of rifles. And so what 164 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: they started doing was two things. First, they started manuf 165 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: facturing lower receivers and then they also began designing rifles 166 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: that they would say complies with the laws of New 167 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: York State. One of the things that the state did 168 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: is it said you cannot have a semi automatic rifle 169 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: that has a detachable magazine. And by magazine, I mean 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: it's the piece of the guns. Some people call it 171 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: a clip. It's where the bullets go and you stick 172 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: it into the lower receiver in the rifle. And some 173 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: of those magazines can hold, you know, thirty, forty, even 174 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: a hundred rounds bullets in it. And so what the 175 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: state wanted to do is they wanted to limit the 176 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: number of rounds you could put inside one of these 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: so called the salt rifles. And they did that by 178 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: saying the magazine has to be fixed and it can 179 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: have no more than ten rounds in it. What these 180 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: owners of this company did is dark Storm, is they 181 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: patented a design where they created a it's an A 182 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: R fifth seen it looks exactly like an A R fifteen, 183 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: and they used a small little screw and they fixed 184 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: the magazine in there, and now you can have an 185 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: A R fifteen. And that has really upset Assemblyman who 186 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: co sponsored the New York Safe Act. They look at 187 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: that as a blatant violation of nothing else of the 188 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: spirit of the law, and supposedly are now requesting that 189 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: the Attorney General look into this to see if they 190 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: can get some kind of injunction on selling these, and 191 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: they're looking to potentially rewrite the law to close off 192 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: what someone call a loophole, a design loophole that allowed 193 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: them to sell these kinds of rifles in New York. 194 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: They could also argue the company that they're just complying 195 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: with the law. They found a way to meet the 196 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: standard of the law, and so they are legal to sell. 197 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. During the nineties, we had a crime 198 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: epidemic and the federal government banned assault rifles. You could 199 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: not buy one in the entire United States that law. 200 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: And in two thousand and four, and people that want 201 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: to restrict the type of weapons you can have to 202 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: cut down on the gun violence, which is really high 203 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: in the United States relative to other developed countries, they say, 204 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: we need another law like that that you cannot do 205 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: this in the piecemeal fashion that's being done right now 206 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: across the country with different laws, that we need a 207 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: federal law that tackles this, you know what they would 208 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: call a problem across the country. My conversation with Jason 209 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: Grotto continues after the break. So, the founders of dark Storm, 210 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: they found that it was actually easier to become a 211 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: gun manufacturer than it was to become a licensed gun dealer. 212 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: So there's a couple of ironies there. The first one 213 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: is the fee to get a manufacturer's license is just 214 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty dollars. If you've never committed a 215 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: felony and can pass a background check, you're going to 216 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: get a license as long as you have a place 217 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 1: to operate out of advances in machine technology means you 218 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: don't really even need to know much about making a gun. 219 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: You don't have to have any prior experience. The other 220 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: irony is that technology coupled with the restrictions opened up 221 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: a market for dark Storm. Because what we found is 222 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: and what they told us, the big gun maker's cult 223 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: Smith and Wesson, you know, Glock. They're not going to 224 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,559 Speaker 1: retool their whole manufacturing operation in order to sell guns 225 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: in New York. It's just not that big of a market. 226 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: But dark Storm, because they made a gun that specifically 227 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: complied with New York's restrictions, they had a market that 228 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: was tied up. And then what they did is they 229 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: went and made a gun for Massachusetts, and they made 230 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: one for Connecticut. Each one that I'm complying with the 231 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: individual state law exactly. And so these smaller manufacturers they 232 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: can operate at a smaller scale and be very profitable. Exactly. 233 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,719 Speaker 1: They're very nimble. So if they're all federally licensed, that 234 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: means they're complying with federal regulations and means that the 235 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: Bureau of Alcohol to back of firearms and explosives, the 236 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: a t F has oversight of them. So does the 237 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: a t F kind of looking on their operations, regulate 238 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: what they're doing and make sure these things are being 239 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: manufacturing sold the right way. Well, so there you're hitting 240 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: on another rub in this whole space, and that is 241 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: the a t F lacks the resources necessary to meet 242 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: its own goals in overseeing these companies. So, for example, 243 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: dark Storm has never had a compliance inspection in the 244 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: ten years plus that it's been in operation. So a 245 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: t F has never come by and said, hey, we 246 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: want to look at your Nope, they've never done it. 247 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: And in fact, the data is hard to come by, 248 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: but it's pretty clear from what data there is out 249 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: there that they just don't have the manpower. In fact, 250 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: they had a report that came out in May that 251 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: said they would need to double their staffing levels for 252 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: inspectors in order to inspect every gun licensee once every 253 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: three years, not once every year, once every three years. 254 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: Is there any effort to increase the A t F 255 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: s budgets so they're able to do their job more effectively? 256 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: So I have seen um in this year's appropriation ask 257 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: um that there is some request for additional staff, but 258 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: not nearly what they would need to really inspect these 259 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: folks once every three years. And again some people would 260 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: say that's not adequate. What percentage of manufacturers is the 261 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: A T F able to inspect? Well, so in COVID 262 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: being a wrinkle, they only inspected seven percent. And how 263 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: many gun manufacturers are there now in the unit? Well, 264 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: today there are eighteen thousand licensed gun manufacturers. And so 265 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: there's another phenomenon happening because of the component based craze 266 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: where dealers are now getting manufacturing licenses. With the manufacturing license, 267 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: you have the flexibility to both own a gun shop 268 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: and sell retail and build your own guns from scratch 269 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: or assemble guns from parts and resell them. So if 270 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: you have a dealer's license, all you can do is 271 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: sell guns or sell lower receivers. You can't help people 272 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: build them or build them and sell them resale. But 273 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: with a manufacturing license you can do all of the above. 274 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: And that's one of the other ironies here is that 275 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: as the federal government through the a t F, tries 276 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: to clamp down on this through regulations, and as states 277 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: try to do it through their piecemeal legislation, what they 278 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: keep seem to be doing is opening up little niche 279 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: markets for folks in the gun industry, you know, that 280 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: want to push the envelope or provide products for their 281 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: customers that wouldn't be there without those regulations. So it's 282 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: a cat and mouse game. Jason Grotto, thanks very much 283 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: for taking the time to explain all of this to us. 284 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I appreciate your interest. I 285 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: wanted to hear from a small gunmaker, which is how 286 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: I recently wound up at a gun range outside Denver. 287 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: And just a note, you'll hear the sound of gunfire 288 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: in this part of the episode. All right, now, the hips, 289 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: bend the knees and body weight forward shoders in front 290 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: of the hips. Both eyes have been on the target. 291 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 1: Extend right now, keep both eyes open, focused on that target, 292 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: and touch the trigger. And then that's Rob Pinks. He's 293 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 1: a gun safety instructor, a former law enforcement officer, and 294 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: a staunch defender of gun rights. He's teaching me how 295 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: to fire a new gun his company, called a Vidity Arm, 296 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: is getting ready to bring to market. I'm a total 297 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: novice and not doing much harm to the paper target 298 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: in front of me. Hey, you got finger off the trigger. 299 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 1: Come back to the ready position, all right, breathe, All right, 300 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: So there's a little bit high, but when you drove 301 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: the gun out, you were a little bit like Pincas 302 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: believes gun owners and sellers have a responsibility to make 303 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: sure the weapons in their possession are handled safely, but 304 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: that the government should get out of the way when 305 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 1: it comes to deciding who can own what. He has 306 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: a federal gun manufacturing license and he follows the law, 307 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: but he says background checks are an infringement on his rights. 308 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: If you asked me to put it to a vote tomorrow, 309 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: I say no background checks. However, I fill out of 310 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: three whenever I want to do a traditional purchase from 311 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,959 Speaker 1: a dealer, because like most gun owners, I'm complying with 312 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 1: laws that I think are unfair, unrealistic, and probably unjust 313 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: under our system, there are people who you believe should 314 00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: not own guns. Does it bother you at all that 315 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: people like that are very easily able to purchase guns? 316 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: It bothers me? Does it concern you not to a 317 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: level at which you cross the threshold where I think 318 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: you're right or my right to purchase a gun should 319 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: be impeded? So that so I do not think that 320 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: the fact that someone that I believe at that point 321 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: in time should not have immediate access to a gun 322 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: should mean that no one should have a media access 323 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: to a gun, because that's what you're saying. If if 324 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 1: you have to go through a background check, no one 325 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: has immediate access to just go pick up a gun. 326 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: I can't loan a friend again. I can't tell a 327 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: friend again. I can't give a friend again because somebody 328 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 1: out there on earth right now I believe shouldn't have 329 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: a mediacs again. You know whose responsibility that is the 330 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: person transferring them the gun. What if the person is 331 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: just buying it essentially from a stranger, and they're not 332 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: a mental health professional, they don't know where the background 333 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: isn't they don't have a responsibility to find that out, 334 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: So they don't have a legal obligation, or they don't 335 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: have the responsibility. I believe they have the responsibility. I 336 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: don't think they should have a legal obligation. The gun 337 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: he plans to sell isn't an a R fifteen style 338 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: rifle like the ones we heard about earlier. It's a 339 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: small handgun. There's nothing unusual about its appearance. To my eye, 340 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: it looks fairly similar to another pistol. He's brought along 341 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: to the range, a glock that he pulls from a 342 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: concealed holster in the waist band of his jeans. So 343 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: we'll be using two guns today. The first is a 344 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: production prototype of the Avidity Arms PD ten. This is 345 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: the gun that we're bringing a market this year. It's 346 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: been a long project with some COVID interruptions and other interruptions, 347 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: but that is the single stack nine millimeters. It holds 348 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 1: ten rounds in the magazine in one round um in 349 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: the barrel of the gun, so your capacity when you're 350 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: One of its notable features isn't the gun itself, but 351 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: how he intends to sell it more with Rob pinkis 352 00:20:51,880 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: after the break. There are a lot of handguns the market. 353 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: Rob Pink has plans to sell his new gun in 354 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: a way that's unconventional. Customers can buy the complete gun 355 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: from him, but he also wants to make plans available 356 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: for free to anyone who wants to make their own 357 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: version of the gun's plastic frame on a three D printer. 358 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: The rest of the gun's metal parts they can buy 359 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: from him. The major manufacturers have not embraced opportunities to 360 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: let people utilize their technology, their designs, their their parts. 361 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 1: They're engineering with guns that they manufacture at homes. In 362 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: other words, you know, these major manufacturers will sell you 363 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: a stripped frame or lower receiver quite often, and then 364 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 1: you can buy parts and construct or assemble a gun. 365 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: But it's still they did the work on the frame, 366 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: and obviously there's a huge number of people that enjoy 367 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: doing that work that considered a little bit of an 368 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: art form, especially in the three D printing world. If 369 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: we're able to provide the files so that people can 370 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: three D print a frame that is based on my design, 371 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: but then they're going to put their initials on it, 372 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: they're going to print it in whatever color they want. 373 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 1: They might adjust the palm swell a little bit um 374 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: or the length of pull of the gun a little bit. 375 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: Now that it's a distance between the front of the 376 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: trigger and the back of the grip, they might increase 377 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 1: that a little bit or even decrease that a little bit. 378 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: As long as it is within the design tolerances and 379 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: the parts will still fit, then they can actually customize. 380 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: He says he won't make much money this way since 381 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: the frame is often the most expensive part, So then 382 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 1: why is he getting away the plans for the three 383 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 1: D printers. That's a relatively small community, and absolutely we 384 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: would be essentially losing money on that proposition. But I 385 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: believe it's incredibly important to show support from the traditional 386 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: manufacturing side of the firearms industry to the private gunmakers 387 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: and and hopefully it encourages other much larger gunmakers to 388 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: support them as well. If a gun maker sells a 389 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: customer a complete gun or just its frame or lower receiver, 390 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: federal law requires it to have a serial number, and 391 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: the buyer has to complete a background check. Serial numbers 392 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: are one of the tools that law enforcement uses to 393 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: attract the origin of guns used in crimes. For this reason, 394 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: in a handful of states, it's against the law of 395 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: three D print your own gun, or you have to 396 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: apply for a serial number if you do, I asked 397 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: Pincas if there's a reason not to put a serial 398 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: number on these guns. Some states Massachusetts, California, Connecticut allowed, 399 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: but federally there is no requirement or even mechanism for it, 400 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: So there's a logistical problem with it. There's also, I think, obviously, 401 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: the civil rights issue of of the the infringement, the restriction, 402 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: the the idea that I have to report to the government. 403 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: One of the questions I get asked sometimes is how 404 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: am I going to feel if a school gets shot 405 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: up with one of my guns. I'm gonna feel bad. 406 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: But if I haven't accepted that possibility, I have no 407 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: business selling guns. And if you haven't accepted the possibility 408 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: that when you're working in a gun shop and you're 409 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: selling a gun across the counter, that that person could 410 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: kill themselves, kill their kids, kill sixteen kids in a 411 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: school down the street, you have no business selling that 412 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: gun across the counter. And if we take that seriously 413 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: and we preach that in our community, I think people 414 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: will be a little bit more careful about who they're 415 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: selling they gun across the counter to whether the government's 416 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: involved or not. I was just speaking to a reporter 417 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: on a story that Bloomberg did about the proliferation of 418 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,479 Speaker 1: small gun manufacturers, and one of the points of that 419 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: story was that um individual states have varying restrictions on 420 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,640 Speaker 1: kinds of guns, in particular a R fifteen style rifles, 421 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: and the larger manufacturers sometimes don't accommodate for those different 422 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: state variations, and so these smaller manufacturers have started to 423 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: manufacture guns that in the narrowest sense, meet the restrictions 424 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: of these states. Is that something that you're part of, Like, 425 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: how how does that play into this kind of growing 426 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: small manufacturers which are really aimed at trying to uh 427 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 1: comply with state Yeah. I think that's the issue is 428 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,239 Speaker 1: is there's a lot of talk around this, and at 429 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: the end of the day, what you're describing is the 430 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: gun industry's attempt to comply with rules which in most 431 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: cases we think are unjust convoluted and unfair, uh and 432 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: probably unconstitutional. As as more and more of these laws 433 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,880 Speaker 1: are tested, we're saying more and more than ruled unconstitutional 434 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: but screen court, and that's good. In the meantime, it 435 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: is good that these companies are trying to solve these problems. 436 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: For people that want to have certain capabilities with firearms, 437 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: whether it's for defense, for recreation, for hunting, for whatever 438 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: it may be inside of these more restricted areas. So 439 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: sometimes we see major manufacturers adjust their product line UM 440 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: in response. For example, UM reduced capacity magazines. So you've 441 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: got a standard capacity. A state says they're going to 442 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: restrict the level of ownership magazines one can have in 443 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: that state. So the major manufacturers will adjust that and 444 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: they'll have a version with a reduced capacity. UM handguns, 445 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: you know, rifles that happens a lot here in Colorado, 446 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: were restricted at the state level from having magazine new 447 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 1: magazines over fifteen rounds. So any new gun that's manufactured 448 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 1: in the community that gets sold in Colorado, that manufacturer 449 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: has to ship it to Colorado for sale through dealers 450 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: with magazine capacity fifteen or less, even if it might 451 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: hold eight being sold in Kansas, you know, prior across 452 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: the border. UM. As far as my company goes, uh, 453 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: we're selling our first product. Their first firearm product is 454 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: a semi automatic handgun with a magazine capacity of ten rounds, 455 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: which is incidental to the whatever the laws may be, 456 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: it's that's the size we talked about the ergonomics really 457 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: being the driving design factor. Uh, if we had a 458 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: customer base in a state where a restriction at some 459 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: point shows up and he said, you can only have 460 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: five rounds, I would tell them, honestly, there's probably more 461 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: efficient designs if you if you can only have five 462 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: rounds in your gun, this gun probably isn't your gun. 463 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,360 Speaker 1: But if you want this gun, we'll sell you one, 464 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: and we absolutely would provide a five round magazine. The 465 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: increasing popularity of making guns at home that are beyond 466 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: the scope of gun regulations has caught the attention of 467 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: several states. California is trying to regulate machines that are 468 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,400 Speaker 1: sometimes sold with gun kits. Those allow buyers to make 469 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: handgun frames or lower receivers at home from a solid 470 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: block of aluminum. In Delaware, a federal judge blocked a 471 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: new state law to prohibit certain build a home guns, 472 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: and in New York, a Democratic lawmaker is drafting legislation 473 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: that would outlaw modifications that companies make to ban guns 474 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: that allow them to be sold. We'll keep an eye 475 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: on this story and report back to you when we 476 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: know more. Thanks to Rob Pinkis and Jason Grotto for 477 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: joining me today. You can read Jason's and Michael Smith's 478 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: story about small gun makers on Bloomberg dot com. Thank 479 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: for listening to us here at The Big Take. It's 480 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: the daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For 481 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: more shows from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 482 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: Radio app podcast or wherever you listen. Read today's story 483 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: and subscribe to our daily newsletter at Bloomberg dot com 484 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: slash Big Take, and we'd love to hear from you. 485 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: Email us with questions or comments to Big Take at 486 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take 487 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is Katherine Fink. Our 488 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: producers are Moe Barrow and Michael Falero. Hilda Garcia is 489 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. I'm West Kasova. 490 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.