WEBVTT - Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - August 9th, 2024 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.760 This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:09.479 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:18.840 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:22.720 Hi, everyone, Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.079 Tim is off this week. So where to start? Yes, 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:28.560 we could begin with how the week began and what 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.560 felt like a mini market meltdown that led us to 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 a six point four trillion dollar global equity wipeout in 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.360 the span of three weeks, and a rush into shorter 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:40.360 data treasuries in the US bond market that briefly drove 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.199 yields on two year notes below those on ten year 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:45.600 bonds for the first time in over two years, and 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:48.560 it all led some to call for emergency rate cuts 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.560 by the FED. By week's end, feels like things calm 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.240 down a bit, even though I got to say early 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:58.160 in the week we saw crypto assets sell off as well, 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:01.600 testing the industry axiom that bitcoin is the equivalent of 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:05.160 digital gold and therefore belongs in an asset portfolio to 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.440 hedge against stock market tirations like seldom before. That wasn't 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.520 quite the case. This week, as you know, we'll talk 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.119 crypto though with the author of Cryptomania, plus the US 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:18.360 presidential race it is often running full throttle now that 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.880 Vice President Kamala Harris picked her running mate Minnesota Governor 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:25.119 Tim Walls, who will together go up against the Republican 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.839 ticket a former President Donald Trump and Ohio Senator JD. Vance. 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.720 On that, how about going on a thought provoking journey 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.000 into the heart of our democracy and the soul of 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:39.600 our country. That trip coming up, plus working from home, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.720 back of the office, hybrid work, how work continues to shift. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.800 We talk about that with the CEO of the Workspased 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.240 Network Company IWG, who is, by the way, not seeing 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.440 signs of recession. If we were, we might be talking 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.120 more about layoffs. On that we get into their true cost. 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.760 All of that to come, We begin with a trip 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.440 along the back roads of the United States known as 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.280 the Lincoln Highway, taken by Frank S. Barry and his wife. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.079 Frank Berry is a Bloomberg opinion columnist and a member 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.560 of the editorial board covering national affairs. Full disclosure. He 0:02:11.600 --> 0:02:14.240 was chief speechwriter to Mayor Michael Bloomberg during the twenty 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.680 twenty presidential campaign and in New York City Hall Michael Bloomberg, 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.200 of course, the founder of Bloomberg LP, home to Bloomberg 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:25.440 Radio and Bloomberg Broadcast, and of course of Bloomberg Philanthropies. 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:30.400 Frank Berry's mission of wandering America to understand what binds 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.639 our country together despite the great political divide is all 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.560 in his new book, Back Roads and Better Angels, a 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.880 Journey into the Heart of American Democracy. He spoke about 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:42.560 his journey with Bloomberg's Matt Miller and me met in 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:44.919 for my co host Tim Stenevik, who was off this week. 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.720 Back in twenty sixteen, when the country seemed to be 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:49.720 coming a part of the seams. I was looking for 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:52.160 a different way into the story that everybody was talking about, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.600 which is what's happening and why is the country so divided? 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.800 And I wanted to go exploring what holds the country together. 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:02.200 And I stumbled across us this thing called the Lincoln Highway, which, 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.280 as it turns out, starts here in New York in 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.000 Times Square and runs all the way across the country 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:09.720 to San Francisco. And it was the first road to 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.600 connect the two coasts. It was dedicated in nineteen thirteen, 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.120 and so I thought, what better way to explore what 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:17.880 holds the country together than by channeling the spirit of 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:21.560 Lincoln and driving this road. Now, it didn't happen because 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:23.680 life got in the way, but the pandemic came along 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:27.120 in twenty twenty, and my wife and I realized this 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:29.280 was our opportunities now or never. 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.480 Was it snap judgment, no problem? Your wife said, yep, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:32.840 I'm in. 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.560 It took a little work, It wasn't quite that quick, 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.680 but she was all in and it did happen really quickly. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.200 We had never driven an RV before, and so we 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:45.840 had to move quickly, and. 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.720 Twenty five feet twenty seventeen Winnebago exactly. 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.560 We decided it was the biggest RV we wanted to 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.600 drive and the smallest RV we wanted to live in. 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:56.640 But it had everything we needed. A bed, a kitchen, 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.560 a bathroom, and off we went. 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.240 So you made some interesting stops. I mean, obviously you 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:05.320 had a job to do. You weren't just driving and 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.880 sight seeing, That's right. You wanted to stop and talk 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:11.320 too important people. How did you choose, you know, with 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.920 whom you would speak and you know, how do you 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.960 set up I feel like you had to have a 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.560 tour manager in order to organize everything. 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:20.240 I wish I had had a tour manager. It was 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.760 very much happening on the fly. I didn't have a 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:24.239 lot of time to put it together. But I wanted 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.039 to talk with people who would represent a cross section 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.839 of the country, people from all different backgrounds and working 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.960 all different types of jobs in different industries. And I 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:37.359 wanted to talk with people who had interesting stories to 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.919 tell that would represent what I was after, which was 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.960 this better sense of what holds us together. And so 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.840 in some cases the people we spoke with, of course 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.000 it was just spontaneous people we met along the way 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.960 always you know, interested to hear those stories. But I 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.200 also would reach out to people before we arrived in 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.200 town and ask, you know, do you have to time 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.000 to sit down. Sometimes it was a civic leader, sometimes 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:07.120 as a business leader. Sometimes it was a farmer, sometimes 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:10.880 it was an activist. And the good thing about the pandemic, 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.600 the extent there was a good thing is people had 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.400 more time on their hands. Everyone's schedule was interrupted, and 0:05:16.440 --> 0:05:18.120 people were really generous with their time. 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.400 We found it just kind of once everybody got up 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:22.520 and running and being on air and working from our homes. 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.080 Everybody was accessible because everybody was home. 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:25.640 That's right. 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:30.960 I do want to ask you your first interview who 0:05:31.040 --> 0:05:33.880 that was, And I also want to even take one 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.279 more step back. Why the Lincoln Highway. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:41.600 Yeah, So the Lincoln Highway to me represented a it 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:44.360 was a hopeful idea in nineteen thirteen, when there was 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.359 no road across the country. It was a way to 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.640 stitch the country together, a way to encourage more people 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.760 to see more of the country. I think that's still 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:55.920 something that we need more of today a time when 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:58.440 we talk about flyover country. The Lincoln Highway was kind 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:04.279 of the original idea of combating the notion of flyover country. 0:06:05.120 --> 0:06:09.960 And so we left on September eleventh from New York City, and. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:12.000 We did. 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.640 We did because having lived in New York on September eleventh, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.800 it's impossible not to carry with you the spirit, I think, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.599 the spirit of unity that we all felt in the 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.080 in the aftermath, and so that's what I wanted to 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:27.720 take with us and to try to try to channel. 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.600 And so my first interview on September eleventh was actually 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.080 with the Mayor of Jersey City Steve Pullip, who was 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:34.600 downtown as I was. 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.479 My home city, right very far. 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:44.000 We didn't get very far at all. Yeah, started square y'. 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.479 Stop here first, first stop. Yeah, and we stopped. There's 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.640 a Lincoln statue in Jersey City, a great one. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:48.160 Uh. 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.000 And so I had a great conversation with him about 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.400 his nine to eleventh story. He was working downtown as 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.719 I was on that day. He ended up joining the Marines, 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.560 and he talked about you know, his and from there 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:03.120 and what led him to end up running for office. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.159 So what about when you actually get into fly over country, 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.200 because you're still a long way from Jersey City, Okay, 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:10.160 I meaneah. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:11.040 Even got to the newer Camport. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:15.000 Yeah, so like when you get to the real America, 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.600 it's all real. Who were you talking to in the heartland. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:22.640 Though, well as people from all different walks of life 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.360 and so, you know, the heartland also includes Chicago. The 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.960 Lincoln Highway runs through big cities and small towns. But 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.360 in Ohio I spoke with a farmer, Chris Gibbs, who 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.840 had a real interesting story. Friend of mine introduced me 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.480 to him. He was a lifelong Republican, very active in 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:44.760 Republican Party politics, grew disillusioned with the party under Trump, 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.200 decided to become an independent, and in doing that he 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:52.720 found something happened he didn't expect, which is he lost 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.640 most of his friends. And that was a really tough 0:07:55.680 --> 0:08:00.000 story to hear, but it was representative of how person 0:08:00.040 --> 0:08:02.400 and all politics has become, I think, and a lot 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:04.800 of people have a version of that, where we've lost 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.280 friendships over that. The good news of his story is 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:12.400 he didn't give up. He decided to become an independent, 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.120 and as it turns out, the Democratic Party asked him 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.240 to chair the local county Party committee and he's now 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:18.640 doing that. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:20.880 I'm just trying to get to the other side, because 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.400 you know, we're here in New York. When we put 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.680 together a two sided panel, neither one likes Trump. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:29.360 Right, when you talked. 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.440 To a Republican, you're talking to one who doesn't support Trump. 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.760 But yet half the country does support Trump. And I 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:39.360 imagine you left this you know, bubble in order to 0:08:39.360 --> 0:08:41.559 get in touch with that other half to find out 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.120 what these hillbilly elergy people were all about. So did 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:46.040 you run into any. 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:47.480 Well, of course, yeah, of course we did. Lots of 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:50.480 Trump supporters and saw Trump signs all along the route, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.640 lots of them. But my purpose was not to try 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.320 to explain other people to readers. Right, This was not 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.800 hillbilly elogy. I wasn't trying to do that. I was 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.840 trying to let people speak about their own experiences in 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.560 ways that would remind us of what holds us together. 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.120 And So to give you one example of a Trump supporter, 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:11.840 really strong Trump supporter, I spoke with two husband and 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.000 wife out in Arizona. When we made it to the 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.320 end of the Lincoln Highway. We kept going two ranchers 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.880 and they talked about how difficult life had been for 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:24.480 them under the Obama administration because of a change in 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:29.439 an EPA rule and the difficulty they were facing because 0:09:29.440 --> 0:09:31.480 of an EPA rule that would require them to fence 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.040 their ranchers. It's open range, require them to fence their road, 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:37.720 and it would have cost two million dollars one point 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.400 six million. I said, one point six million dollars to 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:41.960 put a fence up, and he said, well, you know, 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.280 I could do it for sixty thousand dollars, but because 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.120 of federal regulations, it would cost me one point six million. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.120 Did you find most people were willing to talk. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:50.280 Absolutely. 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.920 In fact, almost no one said I don't want to talk, right, 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:57.120 I don't have time. People were really forthcoming and welcoming. 0:09:57.320 --> 0:09:57.760 Oh go ahead. 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.160 Well no, I'm just I'm curious about the and a 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:01.959 edgo side of it, because I would love to do that. 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.240 Also, I've never driven an r V. 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:06.200 We'll talk about when you first got it, where you 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:07.559 had to go to was it Tennessee? 0:10:08.040 --> 0:10:09.000 Where'd you go to pick it out? 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.440 So we uh what we bought it used and a 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:13.800 woman in Florida was kind enough to drive it halfway. 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:17.040 So I met her in North Carolina, Carolina, picked it up, 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:18.800 had no idea what I was doing, got in the 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.200 driver's seat, feared that I had bit off more than 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:26.040 I could chew, and kind of did. But at that 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.400 point it's too late, and so we drove it back 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:30.640 to New York and then off we went. But yeah, 0:10:30.920 --> 0:10:32.960 neither of was my wife nor I had driven an 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.840 RV before. We had never lived in an RV on a. 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:36.600 Street in the city. 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.560 Well, we brought it up state for a few days 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.439 and then and then we brought it back into the city. 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.080 But no, I never actually, in fact, we walked the 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.360 first mile of the Lincoln Highway from Times Square to 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:50.719 the River, and then we got a ferry and picked up. 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:53.240 A smart move. 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.080 Yeah, took two months to get across across the country. 0:10:57.160 --> 0:11:00.679 We did, I mean that way, yes, to get to 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.480 San Francisco. We arrived on election day or on election 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:04.120 day eve. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:05.880 And what was that like? 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:09.760 Well, it was crazy because San Francisco was empty downtown. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.720 It was being boarded up as we pulled in, because 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:15.319 there was a real fear of election day or election 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.480 night violence if the results went the wrong quote wrong way. 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.000 And so that was really disturbing to see in a 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:25.559 trip that was exploring democracy to being a city where 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.040 there was a fear of violence at the end of 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:30.280 an election. That's something that I had never seen in 0:11:30.280 --> 0:11:30.800 my life. 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.800 We're a young country, a young democracy, right, We've definitely 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.240 seen our moments of strife. We've had a civil war. 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:38.959 After talking to people, do you have more hope? 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:39.480 A lot? 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.600 Yeah? I came away really optimistic actually and full with hope, 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.679 partly because that's what I heard from people. When you know, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:49.839 there was a lot of frustration. I'd hear from both 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.320 Democrats and Republicans about how divided we were. But in 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.760 the end, most people expressed hope. 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:56.280 That we would get through it. 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.520 They weren't always able to articulate exactly why, but there 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:01.800 was this that we would get through it because that's 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.520 what we do. And actually, there's a lot of history 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:07.440 in the book, but that's probably the most historically accurate 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.200 assessment that you could make, because we've been through so 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.120 much as a country, even though relatively young, so much 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.560 violence and division, civil war being the worst of it, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:20.040 but plenty of other episodes too. But we found ways 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:22.040 to get through it. And part of the story of 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:24.599 the book is highlighting those ways, the kind of the 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:27.200 values that have led us out of the dark times. 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:30.360 And I think the more we can recognize that we've 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.800 been through versions of what we're experiencing today, the more 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.680 kind of hope and faith we will have that we 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:37.400 can get through it. 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.040 Are there any prescriptions? 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:40.720 I mean, hopefully we don't have to get to a 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:46.080 civil war before we can reset. Right, How should we 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:47.400 deal with this division? 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:49.360 Well, there's a lot I think that we can learn 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.520 from Lincoln, and that's why he's the perfect guide for 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.280 the trip. And so one thing to keep in mind is, 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.120 you know, Lincoln in the eighteen fifties, as the country 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:02.240 was heading towards Civil War, said of white Southerners, they 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.760 were just They are just as we would be if 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.560 we were in their situation. Now, Lincoln abhorred slavery, thought 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.480 of it as a moral abomination, but here he was 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:15.520 speaking about Southerners and their support for slavery with no judgment. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.960 And I think that is something that we can learn 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.320 from because today there's so much judgment about the other 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:28.120 side and so much kind of quickness to decide that 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:30.720 the other side is not just wrong, but they're evil. 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.679 And I think the more that we can recognize that 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:38.000 we're shaped by our circumstances and that different points of 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.480 view can still hold valid perspectives, to not assume that 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:48.400 we are entirely correct, that others have valid viewpoints, the 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:50.360 more that we can try to hold the whole thing together. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.440 Frank, do you think it's just Donald Trump so that 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:56.760 if he is no longer you know, a part of 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:00.960 the GOP or guiding or leading the GOP, do things change. 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.320 I mean, you saw people as you drove, and it 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.439 was off the beaten path, right, sometimes it was dirt roads. 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:08.480 And one of the things that we often talk about 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.200 is the struggles that a lot of Americans feel that. Yep, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.840 we've got a stock market that sometimes is hitting records 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.199 or we've seen it, and yet that's not main street. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.720 And so I wonder if it's something deeper in the 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:20.400 fabric right now. 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:23.600 Yeah, it's definitely deeper. It just doesn't all go away. 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.880 The division doesn't all go away if Trump goes away. 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.520 I definitely believe it or runs much deeper than that. 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:32.440 And that's why we've got to be able to recognize 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.120 what can get us through it, because it's not just 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:36.800 defeating it's not defeating Donald Trump. It's not waiting for 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.840 him to leave the political scene. The forces that are 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.520 dividing the country right now, and you see it anytime 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.520 you pick up social media. You see it on your phone, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.840 but you hear it in conversations, and you sense it 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:54.040 in people's anxiety. 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:55.640 All of that is. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.880 Going to be with us, and it really requires leaders 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:01.560 to tap into, as say in the book, the better 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.640 Angels of our Nature. It's a Lincoln phrase, but it 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.360 does require leadership that reminds us of the best of 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:13.640 America and the best of our values, and to recognize 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:18.320 when leaders are trying to exploit the worst in us 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.600 and to tap into our fears and hatred. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.240 Well, and I guess we have to be open as well. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.760 You know, when I think about the problems on the left, 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:29.680 you've got the sort of cancel culture and sort of 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.920 this gas lighting censorship. I'm sure a lot of people 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.440 on the right feel that they can't speak or be 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.120 heard because they're not allowed to say how they feel. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:42.280 Absolutely, I couldn't agree more and that's something I speak 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.280 with people in the book about that that also is 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.360 a threat to democracy, and sometimes democrats fall into the 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.400 trap of thinking that threats only exist on the right, 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.360 and that's wrong. They exist on the left too, and 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.200 that censorship that you're talking about is a big part 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:59.600 of it. And I heard that from people in different 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.680 parts of our journey, the fear of speaking their minds, 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.000 and a lot of times that fear was on the 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.320 left because of either you know, facing personal or professional 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:13.480 repercussions for stating their opinion. That's a really unhealthy thing 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.760 in a democratic society if people feel afraid to express 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:17.160 an opinion. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:19.520 Does academia make it worse? I used to think about 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.840 one of our producers said, you know, that's what colleges, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.280 you say stupid things and then you learn and we 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:27.520 don't do that anymore, or if you do, the penalties 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:28.440 are incredible. 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.960 Yeah they're talking about professors or students. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.240 About both, but you know what I'm saying, Like. 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.800 It was further capable of saying, Yeah, college should be 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.600 a place where you make mistakes and learn and grow. 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:48.040 But also any community should have a level of forgiveness 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.920 and understanding that we're not going to see things differently. 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:56.960 And the desire to shame and punish people for being 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.600 on what someone uses the wrong side of an issue 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.920 is really counterproductive to a civil, democratic society. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.359 Your last person, we've only got about forty seconds. Did 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.600 you think long and hard about who the last person 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:09.280 you wanted to speak to? 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.080 Well, as it happens, the trip we went across the 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.679 country and back, we ended up the Lincoln Memorial, And 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:16.800 so I had an old friend hadn't spoken to him 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:20.159 many years. Sergeant Mike Roccarty is a Capitol police officer. 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.280 He was on duty on January sixth, and so I 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.159 spoke to him about his day. He's a conservative Republican, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.360 and he relayed the events of that day and how 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.760 harrowing and dangerous and how much worse it almost was. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.240 And that was a really powerful thing to hear from him, 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:39.879 and so that helps to conclude the story. 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.880 Frank Berry is a Bloomberg opinion columnist. His book Back 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.480 Roads and Better Angels, a journey into the heart of 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.280 American democracy. Coming up the demand for office space with 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:53.200 the CEO of IWG and what it really costs when 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.600 a company lays off workers. You're listening to Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 0:17:56.840 --> 0:17:57.920 This is Bloomberg. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.680 You're listening to Theloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.800 weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen on 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.360 Apple car Play and then Bright Auto with a Bloomberg 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:10.960 Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.480 London based International Workplace Group or IWG, said it swung 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.480 to a pre tax profit for the first half as 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.000 revenue group and backed guidance for the year as it 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.919 entered the second half with good momentum. The ADRs that 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.800 trade in the US rallied on the news. We wanted 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.440 to hear more, especially with so much talk this past 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.280 week about a US labor market slow down. We spoke 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.240 with the founder and CEO of the London based office 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.760 provider Mark Dixon. Matt Miller joining me on this conversation 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:39.800 as well. He's in for Tim. Talk us little bit 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.160 about the environment, what you're seeing in a day where 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.480 we're trying to figure out the way forward after a 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:46.800 global market selloff. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.200 We operate in more than one hundred and twenty countries, 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.720 about half of that businesses in the US. The economy 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.840 has been difficult for a while, but we haven't seen 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:04.640 the any markets globally deteriorating unless the places of extreme 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.359 geopolitical pressure at the moment, so you know, demand is 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:12.720 are more companies move into hybrid and as we said today, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.439 good momentum going into the second half. So we're normally 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.320 an early indicator. We're not seeing anything yet. 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:22.240 I mean, you have correct me if I'm wrong. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.840 Formerly, I think people know the Regis brand really well. 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:31.040 You have office space in places where people actually still 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:33.640 want to use it, right, I just remember the last 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:34.600 time we talked, it's like. 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:36.600 You're not You're not You're. 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.840 Not loaded with you know, midtown Manhattan, Third Avenue offices. 0:19:40.080 --> 0:19:43.320 It's more like closer to where people live. Isn't that 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:43.800 the case? 0:19:44.480 --> 0:19:49.480 Absolutely right? Well, look, we we have a huge operating platform, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.359 is used by eight million people. It's you know, now 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:58.480 coming up for four thousand buildings a million rooms that 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.480 we operate. You know, this is a sizeable operation exactly 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.080 as you say. You know, we do supply offices by 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:10.399 the way in all over Downtown, Midtown, Manhattan, Downtown, et cetera, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:16.119 et cetera. But we also supply customers all over New Jersey, 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.960 all over Connecticut, all over New York State, and all 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.359 across the country. You know, we a US business is 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.199 about twelve hundred locations and it's it's it's growing at 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:29.560 about a thirty percent growth rate each year as more 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.600 and more people move to hybrid work, in particular in 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:33.359 the suburbs. 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.360 Wow, what kind of investment do you have to make there? 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.800 Because it's not just like buying a building and you know, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.160 putting in carpeting. You've got to conform to the way 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:48.480 we work. You know, I'm imagining a lot of wiring, 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.760 a lot of Wi Fi. How capital intensive is the business? 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:59.280 Well, look, we're opening one thousand new buildings a year approximately, 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.000 but we do not make the investments. We're you know, 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:09.200 we're similar to Marriott or Hiat or Hilton, and we 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:15.760 operate these things on behalf of landlord partners investor partners 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:19.320 that actually own the buildings. So we are an operator, 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:23.800 you know, we're not the funder, so you know. But 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.359 in answer to your question, it costs about a million 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.320 bucks for an average sized center one to two million. 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:32.199 You know, we can build them in about nine weeks 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.040 and trade them pretty quickly anywhere in the country, such 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:39.280 as the demand for hybrid working and look, most importantly, 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.000 it gives owners who whether they're in the suburbs or 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:47.359 in downtown locations, it gives them new income that they 0:21:47.359 --> 0:21:51.360 weren't touching before. New income which basically is coming from 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.040 a productization of real estate, you know, turning it from 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:59.240 what was difficult and CAPEX heavy into op X and 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.320 cash like for customers. 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:03.640 Mark, what can you tell us though here we are, 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.159 what four years out from the start of the global pandemic, 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:08.240 and I'm thinking about just here in the US specifically, 0:22:08.280 --> 0:22:10.400 since you said about more than half of your businesses 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.119 here in the United States, how has in terms of 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.560 the working from home or the hybrid mix, how has 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:17.960 it evolved? How has it changed? 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:21.800 It's sort of evolving fast as fast as real estate 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.040 will let it. Remember, you've got to back drop, people 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:27.399 already have commitments to real estate, so it takes time 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.520 for them to heed those commitments. Number one, number two. 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:37.560 Pretty much all corporations are either adopting or reviewing the 0:22:37.600 --> 0:22:42.320 adoption of hybrid working to some degree. You know, just 0:22:42.400 --> 0:22:44.159 if you look at what we supply and of our 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.879 eight million customers today, about a million we support working 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.320 from home, and more of that percentage in the US 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:56.760 as corporations basically use technology. Basically your office is now 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.080 run by Microsoftice. It's not in sort of real estate 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:03.920 in Manhattan or anywhere in the country. You know, companies 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:07.639 more and more moving to working on a platform that is, 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.920 you know, providing space wherever people need it as opposed 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.480 to bringing them into central offices wherever they may be 0:23:15.320 --> 0:23:19.280 and getting people together. So it's much cheaper, it's half 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:24.080 the price. It's opics only, there's no capex, it's super flexible, 0:23:24.359 --> 0:23:27.639 it's a business tool. The companies are adopting because it 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:30.920 makes sense, and of course it's very popular with workers. 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:33.280 You know, they don't really want to be forced to 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:34.680 commute exactly now. 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:37.080 I was just thinking about that. We've had this horrible 0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:41.760 story about New Jersey Transit. It stranding passengers for three 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:45.320 hours in the tunnel with no air conditioning, electricity, and 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.000 that would just make you not want to go from Chatham, 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.240 New Jersey into the city to work every day. So 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:55.040 I'd much rather, you know, go to a regis or 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:58.160 an IWG office space in short hills. 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:00.320 I don't know where they are, But do you find 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:00.879 a lot of that? 0:24:01.720 --> 0:24:04.000 Do you find a lot of people who say, do 0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:06.080 you find a lot of a big growth in that 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.040 customer who no longer wants to commet into the city 0:24:09.040 --> 0:24:11.600 but wants to go to an office near her house. 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.119 The key thing here, Matt is they no longer need 0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.800 to be going to that downtown location or wherever it 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.800 may be in the country. The technology allows them to 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:25.600 work from anywhere, so they can work from home. But 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:29.160 a lot of people are much more productive working from 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:32.719 an office with less distractions. But they want that office 0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:37.080 to be down the road, walkable, cyclable, short drive. Well 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:39.440 they don't want to do is waste an hour two 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:44.040 hours a day going backwards and forwards accompanied by their 0:24:44.119 --> 0:24:46.320 laptop to use a laptop in another place. It just 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:49.119 doesn't make sense in a tech enabled world. 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:53.000 Mark you know, you guys can do single spaces. You 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.840 can do offices for small teams, for large teams, you 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:59.560 can be headquarters right for different folks. I am curious, 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:03.840 what's the bulk of your business? Is it short term durations, 0:25:03.880 --> 0:25:06.560 is it longer term? Is it large teams? What is it? 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:11.760 We do everything from hourly, daily in a monthly yearly. 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:15.280 Long term contract for us would be two or three years. 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:18.679 In terms of numbers of people, about forty percent of 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:25.920 our business is individuals. These are individual professionals, individual entrepreneurs 0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:32.080 that all over the world, millions of them. It really 0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:34.480 works for them and they're they're very sticky in the 0:25:34.520 --> 0:25:38.960 sort of bedrock of our business. About forty percent are 0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:43.639 very large companies who would would have larger implementations. I 0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:47.080 mean these are you know, up to one hundred two 0:25:47.119 --> 0:25:50.480 hundred thousand people from a company that would be dropping 0:25:50.520 --> 0:25:53.800 in and using. And then in the middle we've got SMEs, 0:25:54.359 --> 0:25:57.760 you know, smaller medium companies that you know use us 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:00.520 because of the flexibility and so on. So it's a 0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:04.680 vast range. Remember eight million users, we've got a range 0:26:04.680 --> 0:26:10.119 of everyone, and look the number keeps growing. It's a 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:15.600 very attractive economic way to do things. Both for building 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.640 owner partners and for our customers, and it's very popular 0:26:19.680 --> 0:26:22.520 with the workers themselves. Everyone's a winner in this. That's 0:26:22.560 --> 0:26:24.240 why it's got such momentum. 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:27.159 Just ten fifteen seconds forgive the squeeze Mark. But so 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.879 nothing in it that says to you recession, people slowing 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:34.359 down on hiring or anything that any clues there not. 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:35.560 That we're seeing. 0:26:36.080 --> 0:26:38.240 Look, a lot of companies are looking to save money, 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:40.760 but that's been going on for a while because of 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:44.000 the cost. But no, we're not seeing anything in any 0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:44.840 of our markets. 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:47.240 That was Mark Dixon, founder and CEO of the Office 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:51.960 Provider IWG, also known as International Workplace Group. Well. Another 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:54.440 work related story that was among the most read on 0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.480 the Bloomberg this past week came from BusinessWeek and our 0:26:57.520 --> 0:27:00.760 workshift team about the true cost of layoffs, because when 0:27:00.800 --> 0:27:03.840 companies cut staff, they don't just have to pay severance, 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:08.440 but face other expenses that haven't been fully calculated until now. 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:12.560 Matthew Boyle, Bloomberg News Senior Management and workplace reporter, filled 0:27:12.600 --> 0:27:14.920 in Matt Miller and me on the data collected and 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:17.640 what it showed and why he did this story. 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:20.040 Ca I mean I started work on this story six 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:20.640 months ago. 0:27:20.840 --> 0:27:21.120 You did. 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:23.159 Yeah, when layoffs were come, I mean layoffs, when have 0:27:23.200 --> 0:27:25.320 they not been you know, coming hot and heavy, and 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:27.280 just with Intel recently and. 0:27:27.160 --> 0:27:27.879 Dell as well. 0:27:28.359 --> 0:27:30.199 But you see all these pressure releases, You read the 0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:34.320 memos from the CEOs, you know, streamlining efficiency, blah blah blah. 0:27:34.359 --> 0:27:36.480 And then the SEC filing goes out and they say 0:27:36.480 --> 0:27:38.960 we are taking a charge of X million for Severn. 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:41.199 So I'm like, okay, it's got to be more to 0:27:41.240 --> 0:27:44.520 it than that, right, what's the true cost of a layoff? 0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:47.120 Because I've been laid off and we've you know, either 0:27:47.119 --> 0:27:49.280 you've been laid off or you've done a layoff. I 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:51.240 think all of our listeners are falling to one of 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:54.199 those two categories. And you see what happens to the survivors, 0:27:54.200 --> 0:27:56.280 the people who are still there. You know, they're like 0:27:56.359 --> 0:27:59.280 zombies at times. They're worried about another layoff coming. They 0:27:59.359 --> 0:28:01.400 now have to do the work of two or three people. 0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.720 So you know, your engagement goes down, your morale goes down. 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:07.840 You're kind of looking at the door like maybe I 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:10.399 should be down the street taking a job somewhere else. 0:28:10.480 --> 0:28:12.560 Yeah, a lot of the other people because we know. 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:17.560 So we know that output declines. We know that quitting 0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:20.159 goes up, but how much does this actually cost? We 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:22.400 just kind of see these as like intangibles, like, well, 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:24.320 it happens, but you know, we had to do this. 0:28:24.800 --> 0:28:26.919 So I'm like, somebody must put some numbers behind this. 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:29.600 So I dug around and finally found you know, I 0:28:29.600 --> 0:28:32.800 found an actuary at the Department of Labor. I found 0:28:32.880 --> 0:28:36.040 academics who have studied this. I've found a guy who 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:39.240 studied two hundred layoffs and figured out how much did 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:42.000 the quitting rate increase after. 0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:45.280 Let's step back and first look at just the direct costs, 0:28:45.600 --> 0:28:47.480 because you're talking about the whole ball of wax, right, 0:28:47.520 --> 0:28:51.640 But you lead your story with the Facebook firings. And 0:28:51.680 --> 0:28:53.880 I knew a couple of young people that Facebook brought 0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:57.880 over here from Europe to work and then almost all 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:00.000 of a sudden, laid them off and sent them right back. 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:03.320 They had great packages, and the whole thing was almost 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.080 a billion dollars right to lay off eleven thousand employees. 0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:09.520 That's like eighty eight thousand dollars a person. So that's 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:10.920 just the severance, right. 0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:11.400 Yeah. 0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:13.440 So I looked at their filing and they said, well, 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.440 you know, after we nine hundred and seventy five million 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:20.240 or whatever it was in severance. But it's not material 0:29:20.280 --> 0:29:22.720 because they were big saving all this money. We know, 0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:25.200 we don't think give any of these people bonuses next year, 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:27.600 and we're saving this or that, and I'm like, you know, 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:29.880 there's got to be again more to it than that. 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:32.520 So but all we really know is how much they 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:35.080 take in the charge for severance, which will cover you know, 0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:39.560 two week salary, health care, continuation, outplacement, you know, help 0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:42.280 with your resume. But again, the costs of a layoff 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:43.120 goes so. 0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:45.720 One of the biggest indirect costs, like you've got to 0:29:45.760 --> 0:29:48.040 bring in I guess Bain or mckensey to make you 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:49.840 feel better about it first, right, so you got. 0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:53.520 Another cost, another cost. Yeah, there you go. No, Matt 0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:55.720 Boyle will do it for you. So the biggest ones 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:59.760 are reduced productivity. Output goes down. So I went to 0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:03.040 a called Active Track and like other firms, so they're 0:30:03.080 --> 0:30:06.800 one of the biggest ones. They track employee activity. Now 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:09.200 we've all heard about you know, they're watching your hours 0:30:09.360 --> 0:30:12.240 or surveiling you and all these stories about employee surveillance. 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:15.760 But employers do want to know, you know, what you 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:19.200 are doing on the company time. So this company was 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:24.040 able to track pre and post layoff productivity at seven 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:26.680 anonymous firms. Obviously I don't know who they are, but 0:30:26.920 --> 0:30:30.640 we saw exactly what happened to productivity and who's usually 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.320 about an hour a day less productive, So that's eighteen 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:37.840 hours a month turns out to be, you know, for 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:40.720 every what is it every ten thousand sorry, for a 0:30:40.720 --> 0:30:43.880 company with one hundred employees, that means more than fifty 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:47.920 thousand dollars lost in productivity every month until it finally 0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:51.920 reverts to normal, usually after six months, but sometimes, you know, 0:30:52.120 --> 0:30:54.240 not six months. So that's one of the big ones. 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:57.719 Another one is increased quitting. People are worried about their 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:00.360 own job and so people start, so you have an 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:04.040 increase in what's called voluntary attrition quitting. Now, companies always 0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:07.520 have a level of attrition. Normally, it's usually about nineteen percent. 0:31:07.600 --> 0:31:10.760 So usually you are replacing nineteen percent of your people 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:13.680 just because they found something better in general, but when 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:16.920 you do a layoff, your voluntary attrition can go up 0:31:16.920 --> 0:31:18.320 by fifty percent. 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:19.560 That's a lot. 0:31:19.640 --> 0:31:21.560 That is a lot, yes. 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:23.000 Well, and I feel like on the other side of that, 0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:25.920 like if you need those workers that are leaving. 0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:27.800 Now, those are the ones you want to keep exactly. 0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:29.520 That to bring them in, to recruit them, then to 0:31:29.560 --> 0:31:31.560 retrain them, that's again another cost. 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:33.320 Yes, a, those are people you didn't want to lose 0:31:33.320 --> 0:31:35.000 in the first place. They're not the people you laid off. 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:38.480 Then you have to train, recruit and train their replacements. 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:41.520 So all that has a massive cost. And you're able 0:31:41.640 --> 0:31:43.520 and I was able to determine it. So you take 0:31:43.560 --> 0:31:45.480 and you know that, you take a normal turnover rate, 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:47.960 you figure out how much it costs to replace the 0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:51.800 people you lose, the increased incremental quits as I was 0:31:51.840 --> 0:31:54.800 calling it, because it usually costs about one point two 0:31:55.000 --> 0:31:58.480 five x to replace a lost worker. So if you 0:31:58.520 --> 0:32:02.240 take let's say sixty five thousand average salary in the US, 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:05.520 you know that's over eighty thousand dollars to replace them. 0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:09.360 Multiply that by the incremental quits, and for at a 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:12.680 ten thousand person company, you know you're talking about seventy 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:15.719 five million dollars that you were not thinking you were 0:32:15.760 --> 0:32:18.800 going to spend to replace all these people. 0:32:18.880 --> 0:32:20.479 I have to say, you sound like an accountant. I'm 0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:21.080 kind of loving this. 0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:23.320 I'm a history major. So no, this was all new 0:32:23.360 --> 0:32:25.680 to me, but you know it's pop. I had people 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:28.000 walking me through the mass saying, yeah, that sounds right, 0:32:28.040 --> 0:32:29.560 but like, you know, I wish I could do it 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:33.200 for like a particular company, you know, getting inside their books. 0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:34.880 That wasn't going to happen. So I just had to 0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:39.160 sort of guesstimate and do backup here that does exactly. Hey, Meta, 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.360 why don't you tell me what you you have? 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:44.840 Also, you know, obviously we all pay unemployment insurance tax 0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:48.880 at the company pace that and because when you fire, 0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.000 when Meta fires eleven thousand people, a lot of them 0:32:51.000 --> 0:32:53.120 are going to go on unemployment and start collecting money 0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:55.720 from the state. We all pay for that collectively. But 0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:59.239 it turns out the state wants a little bit more 0:32:59.280 --> 0:33:01.360 from a company that people the next year, right. 0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:03.880 Yeah, I filed that under boring but important. Of course, 0:33:03.960 --> 0:33:06.360 your unemployment insurance rate is going to go off because 0:33:06.360 --> 0:33:09.000 you just put some people on unemployment. So guess what. 0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:12.360 So there, I've spent weeks finding out finding this guy 0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:14.520 who used to be an actuary for the Department of Labor, 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:17.600 who was so tired of getting that question from people, 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:20.680 how much is my UI in rate. 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:21.080 Going to go up. 0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:24.200 He built his own calculator to figure it out because 0:33:24.200 --> 0:33:27.000 a varies state by state, and all these laws and 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:28.560 the formulation for it goes all the way back to 0:33:28.640 --> 0:33:31.560 nineteen thirty five, and different states do it different ways. 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:34.440 Long story short, you know, this guy actually put a 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:36.440 calculator together. So I said, hey, what if you're a 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:38.479 Texas company and you lay off ten percent of your 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:40.920 work for us? He's like, oh, just plug it in. Boom, 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:42.960 there you go. Your unemployment insurance is going to go 0:33:43.040 --> 0:33:44.920 up by such and such a million dollars a year. 0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:46.200 So that's another one. 0:33:46.360 --> 0:33:48.840 Then there's the lawyers. Let's not forget the lawyers. You've 0:33:48.840 --> 0:33:50.640 got to hire lawyers to make sure you don't get 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:52.880 laid off and if you sorry, if you don't get sued, 0:33:53.200 --> 0:33:55.040 and you will do get sued, and you probably might 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:57.200 get sued, but it might be a big, massive, ugly 0:33:57.240 --> 0:33:59.640 class action lawsuit, or it could just be one person 0:33:59.680 --> 0:34:02.040 who's like, how dare you type of thing. But you 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:06.080 have to analyze the demographics of the people you plant 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:08.080 to lay off to make sure that no one group 0:34:08.160 --> 0:34:09.319 is disproportionately hurt. 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:12.520 That's Matt Boyle Bloomberg News Senior Management and workplace reporter. 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.400 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Coming up. There are 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:18.359 lots and lots and lots of books written about the good, 0:34:18.400 --> 0:34:21.080 the bad, and the ugly of the crypto world. As 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:24.160 we continue to digest the hype, hope, and the fall 0:34:24.200 --> 0:34:27.520 of cryptos, once Almighty King, that story is coming up next. 0:34:27.640 --> 0:34:28.400 This is Bloomberg. 0:34:35.960 --> 0:34:39.799 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 0:34:39.920 --> 0:34:43.080 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play 0:34:43.120 --> 0:34:46.000 and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can 0:34:46.040 --> 0:34:49.239 also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:52.960 York station. Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 0:34:54.480 --> 0:34:57.359 The crypto acids sell off this past week tested big 0:34:57.400 --> 0:34:59.960 time the thinking that bitcoin is the equivalent of digital 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:03.400 gold and therefore belongs in an acid portfolio to hedge 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:07.439 against dock market gyrations. What safe haven you might even ask? 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:07.879 Well? 0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:11.680 As equity sank on Monday and carry trades unraveled, Bitcoin 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.000 behaved more like stocks than gold, at one point tumbling 0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:19.920 seventeen percent to below fifty thousand dollars before recouping some losses. 0:35:20.200 --> 0:35:22.840 Its correlation with the precious metal turn negative in July 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.480 according to Bloomberg Data, and so yes, we continue to 0:35:26.560 --> 0:35:29.759 rethink the world of crypto and try to understand the 0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:32.359 way forward. Writing about it in a new book out 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:36.880 this past week, Andrew Chow, correspondent for Time Magazine, his 0:35:37.000 --> 0:35:41.080 book Cryptomania, Hype, Hope, and the Fall of Ftx's billion 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:45.000 dollar Fintech Empire. There are lots of books out there 0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:48.000 about the world of crypto, about FTX, about the good, 0:35:48.080 --> 0:35:50.720 the bad, the ugly, and really still a lot about 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:53.479 the promise of crypto. What did you want to write 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:54.600 about and why? 0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:55.680 Absolutely? 0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:59.120 I think my book starts with the sort of utopian 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:03.239 promises of crypto and the ideals forged out of the 0:36:03.320 --> 0:36:06.359 two thousand and eight financial crash, wanting to build a fair, 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:12.000 decentralized global financial system that would work for everybody, and 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.600 then seeing how that idea took hold in the minds 0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.839 of so many people over the pandemic and then took 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:23.000 their wallets and then became a system that perhaps was 0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:26.680 even more predatory for the time being than what its 0:36:26.680 --> 0:36:29.480 backers had hoped. So that's sort of what my book traces. 0:36:29.880 --> 0:36:32.000 If they'd stuck to the original premise A bitcoin, it 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:35.160 would have gloss their wallets, right because one of the 0:36:35.239 --> 0:36:38.680 key one of the key issues is that you own 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:41.359 your own crypto. You don't let it sit on an 0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:43.200 FTX platform for example. 0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:44.120 That's right. 0:36:44.280 --> 0:36:48.399 Yeah, it's so funny to see these centralized platforms exchanges 0:36:48.480 --> 0:36:52.480 really take rise and kind of dominate the industry. Even now, 0:36:53.200 --> 0:36:55.480 it seems like at least over five percent of all 0:36:55.520 --> 0:37:00.160 crypto is sitting in coinbase accounts. Last year, finance had 0:37:00.200 --> 0:37:03.640 an even bigger share, and FTX as well. I mean 0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:06.400 back when it existed, the huge share of the market 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:11.080 for people taking their money and trusting it with somebody else. 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:13.520 The whole idea of crypto is that it's trustless, that 0:37:13.600 --> 0:37:16.239 you know it's there because it's sitting on the blockchain. 0:37:16.280 --> 0:37:16.719 You can see. 0:37:16.719 --> 0:37:18.799 You don't need somebody else, not that there is a yeah, 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:20.120 don't share your private key. 0:37:20.920 --> 0:37:22.680 Not your key is not your crypto. You know. The 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:26.200 whole point is not trusting anybody and being able to 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:30.799 access this decentralized money anytime you want. And how the 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:34.600 industry has formed has just been around these centralized systems 0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:38.080 that work better because you know, they built out the 0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:41.080 technology and the ux to allow people to use. 0:37:41.280 --> 0:37:45.120 Do you differentiate between bitcoin and the other? I mean, 0:37:45.160 --> 0:37:47.680 how many other coins are there two thousand, five thousand 0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:51.319 other coins out there? You do you make that differentiation 0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:52.120 or do you see it? 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:54.759 Quite a lot of my book is about Ethereum and 0:37:54.800 --> 0:37:57.440 the dream of metallic beauty and it's founder to create 0:37:57.560 --> 0:38:01.120 a system that is like a this layer of the 0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:04.200 Internet that rests upon blackchain. It's not just about money 0:38:04.320 --> 0:38:08.880 or digital gold. It's about the how blackchain potentially facilitate 0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:12.680 these fair systems in all sorts of ways, and how 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:17.240 then Ethereum and its ecosystem mostly became a giant casino. 0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:21.360 So I think, you know, there are a lot of 0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:24.719 really interesting projects out there. I think a lot of 0:38:24.760 --> 0:38:28.320 their narratives haven't really stood the test of time. Slonas 0:38:28.800 --> 0:38:31.880 went down and the come up Ethereum still and then 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:32.920 there's a whole bunch that. 0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:36.480 But do you agree with I mean, having studied this 0:38:36.680 --> 0:38:38.799 for so long and then written a book about it, 0:38:40.520 --> 0:38:42.920 you know, staking versus proof of. 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:50.920 Work, Yes, well, proof of work is obviously as takes 0:38:50.960 --> 0:38:56.400 a huge amount of energy, Yes, exactly, It's supposed to 0:38:56.480 --> 0:38:59.680 be incredibly energy intensive so that it's hard to hack 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.520 into I was actually where your money, where your mouth is, 0:39:02.760 --> 0:39:07.200 you know, I was in Texas. There's a town that's 0:39:07.239 --> 0:39:10.760 being impacted because it's sitting next to a bitcoin mine, 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:12.840 a proof of work mine, and the noise from the 0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:15.440 mind is driving people crazy. So I think it's also 0:39:15.480 --> 0:39:19.000 important that we remember that there these are it's on 0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:22.200 a blockchain, but these are physical technologies, and they're in 0:39:22.239 --> 0:39:24.240 the world, and they're impacting people in different ways. 0:39:24.400 --> 0:39:27.560 You know, you talk about narratives around the crypto world. 0:39:27.640 --> 0:39:30.600 How has it changed in a good way or a 0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:31.080 bad way? 0:39:31.160 --> 0:39:33.920 In a good way is interesting framing there. I think 0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:37.520 at the beginning of where my book starts. 0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:39.879 A smarter way like more educated if you will. 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.480 In twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, there was all this 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:48.480 hope of crypto revolutionizing all these different parts of society. 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:51.000 I don't know if you've heard of the concept of dows, 0:39:51.040 --> 0:39:55.279 where they were going to revolutionize how the corporation may 0:39:55.600 --> 0:40:00.560 make corporate voting fair, or you know, voting blockchain in 0:40:01.040 --> 0:40:06.600 city councils, keeping medical records on the blockchain. They are 0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:09.200 all these sort of applications that we're supposed to write 0:40:09.280 --> 0:40:12.640 to happen. It seems like now, the narrative has really 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:15.960 been dominated lately by just the idea of number go up, 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:19.919 the idea that bitcoin is digital gold, and that it's 0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:23.000 going to appreciate and value the more that people believe 0:40:23.040 --> 0:40:27.239 in it. It's running on momentum and the ideology around it, 0:40:27.600 --> 0:40:30.600 and from where I'm sitting, a lot of the other 0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:33.480 sort of ideals of the blockchain being able to transform 0:40:33.760 --> 0:40:37.400 and form a bedrock for different parts of society have 0:40:37.520 --> 0:40:38.720 not materialized yet. 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:44.399 What happened to the decentralized what's now decentralized autonomous organization? 0:40:45.360 --> 0:40:46.719 There was so much hope for them. 0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:49.640 I remember talking to like my veterinarians assistant and he 0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:53.560 was all hyped up, and it's such a fascinating concept, 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:56.080 but I haven't heard anything about it in two years. 0:40:56.239 --> 0:40:58.439 Yes, exactly. A lot of them just sort of became 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:01.839 investment clubs of healthy crypto people being able to pool 0:41:01.880 --> 0:41:04.520 their money and then put them into other investments that 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:09.600 went up and then crashed alongside the market. And it 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:12.319 turned out the voting systems within dows were just as 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:14.840 flawed as you know, a board vote in which a 0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:17.640 lot of these doos had a sort of one token, 0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:20.520 one vote system. So the whales, the people who owned 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:25.120 the most tokens, had had an inordinate amount of sway 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.359 in these organizations. So it's not like they were fair 0:41:27.920 --> 0:41:30.840 or a better voting system or a way to run 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:32.480 anything from what I saw. 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:35.400 So the bottom line is your outlook for crypto is 0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:36.319 not optimistic. 0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:40.960 It's funny because the belief system around crypto has grown 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:44.520 so strong that you know, there's so many people who 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:47.080 are there's so many outright critics, and then people like 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:49.840 me who were just trying to point to the flaws 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:53.120 or the divide between what the promises are and what's 0:41:53.160 --> 0:41:57.200 been delivered so far. That's basically because everybody's sort of like, well, 0:41:57.239 --> 0:42:00.600 you can't like stop pointing out the bad, But I'm 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:04.120 a reporter. What can I do but exactly chronicle what 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:06.520 has happened in the world, And I want to show 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:10.480 that there were all these lofty promises of creating financial systems, 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.600 global financial systems that were better than the status quo, 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:16.480 and I don't think they've materialized yet. That's not to 0:42:16.520 --> 0:42:17.880 say that it couldn't happen. 0:42:17.600 --> 0:42:22.400 In the future. Sbf FTX rightfully, So you write a 0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:25.120 lot about him. Kind of the rapid rise and fall. 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:27.880 It feels like it's an unbelievable story. It's one you 0:42:28.120 --> 0:42:32.120 really written for the big screen. But having said that, 0:42:32.200 --> 0:42:35.040 did we need to kind of go through it to 0:42:35.160 --> 0:42:38.040 kind of look at the crypto world in a different light? 0:42:38.560 --> 0:42:40.399 Do we need to see something like that? 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:43.720 I think that's a really interesting question and interesting stupid 0:42:43.840 --> 0:42:44.160 or interesting? 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:44.400 No? 0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:48.080 I think I think most crypto people would argue like, no, 0:42:48.120 --> 0:42:50.120 we did not need to go through that. If he 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:52.200 hadn't been around, then we would be well on our 0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:54.719 way to the moon. I think he revealed a lot 0:42:54.760 --> 0:42:57.399 about the way the crypto industry works and the way 0:42:57.400 --> 0:43:01.840 that the power vacuum, this decentral space can give rise 0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:04.880 to very powerful people who want to use the space 0:43:04.920 --> 0:43:07.240 for their own ends. I think it's important to remember 0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:10.239 that Sam Bengminfree did not come into crypto as an 0:43:10.280 --> 0:43:13.960 idealist or believing anything about the way that bitcoin was 0:43:14.000 --> 0:43:17.719 going to revolutionize global finance. He simply saw an arbitrage 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:21.160 opportunity that he had learned, you know, on Wall Street, 0:43:21.440 --> 0:43:24.840 and saw that it was orders of magnitude more successful 0:43:24.880 --> 0:43:27.120 in crypto than it had been at Jane Street Capital. 0:43:27.560 --> 0:43:30.040 So he comes in and then he realizes that because 0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:32.959 of all the differences between the markets, he could make 0:43:33.520 --> 0:43:37.640 an absolute amazing amount of money, and then he is 0:43:37.680 --> 0:43:39.680 going to chase that to its logical end. 0:43:40.000 --> 0:43:43.000 But he had no idea, it seems, how to run 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:46.279 a business. He had no concern for any of the 0:43:46.840 --> 0:43:49.880 bureaucratic side of it, the back office. 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:50.040 The admin. 0:43:50.440 --> 0:43:53.800 He did it all wrong, and it seems I feel 0:43:53.840 --> 0:43:57.120 sort of sorry for him because it seems like he 0:43:57.200 --> 0:44:00.920 sort of fell into this mistake and he was clearly 0:44:00.920 --> 0:44:04.560 making it on purpose. But he should have been better advised. 0:44:04.880 --> 0:44:07.880 He wasn't twenty six. He's thirty two actually, but to 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:10.239 me still seems pretty young. Okay, but to spend twenty 0:44:10.320 --> 0:44:11.440 five years in prison. 0:44:11.200 --> 0:44:14.960 But still, although I also felt how many people followed 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:20.160 really smart financial types who kind of put him up 0:44:20.200 --> 0:44:22.480 on a pedestal, right, Like you think about everybody who 0:44:22.560 --> 0:44:25.239 chased him and wanted to talk to him, and you. 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:27.680 Know, yes, maybe a question. 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:27.960 All of us. 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:30.880 I think he was incredibly huboristic, so I think his 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:33.560 arrogance is sort of key here. He believed that he 0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:35.439 knew better than a lot of people. 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.200 You're Silicon Valley, right, like ooh, somebody bright like on 0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:40.480 a different level brilliant exactly. 0:44:40.520 --> 0:44:42.719 And when it comes to the sort of checks and 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:45.520 balances you were talking about, he would always talk about like, oh, 0:44:45.560 --> 0:44:48.240 I want my company lean. I think you know, having 0:44:48.400 --> 0:44:51.120 like a board would slow me down. He really believed 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:54.879 in himself and his ability to revolutionize like the way 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:58.120 that a crypto business should run. He was the most 0:44:58.520 --> 0:45:01.520 he was the least risk of person you'll ever meet. 0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:04.680 So he really he loved risk. He embraced it. He 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:06.880 was taking all sorts of leverage and that was his 0:45:06.960 --> 0:45:09.799 whole game was to get as leveraged as possible and 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:12.720 borrow as much money as possible to plow into risky 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:15.840 trades that could then net him an enormous, enormous amount 0:45:15.880 --> 0:45:19.719 of money. And when you do that, you know, if 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:21.759 you chase that forever, it's going to come back to 0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:22.080 buy you. 0:45:22.440 --> 0:45:26.960 I've always thought, you know, the coins in crypto don't 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:30.880 seem to have much more value beyond the speculative nature 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:33.759 of you know, invest in investing or gambling, but the 0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:39.120 underlying technology seems to hold so much promise. Blockchain technology. 0:45:39.160 --> 0:45:42.799 You see banks experimenting with it, You hear about the 0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:46.520 value of a decentralized ledger, do you think there's any 0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:48.120 future for that technology. 0:45:48.680 --> 0:45:51.480 My book really explores this sort of dichotomy which I 0:45:51.680 --> 0:45:55.080 cast and it's as like sort of the battle for 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.080 crypto's soul, which is very simplistic, but a nice sort 0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:01.160 of framing device between these two of Metallic Beater and 0:46:01.160 --> 0:46:03.680 the founder of Ethereum on one hand, who wants to 0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:07.560 build these elegant blockchain systems and believes that they can 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:11.400 supercharge so many different things, and then Sam on the 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:14.319 other hand, who's just basically playing with meme coins. It's 0:46:14.360 --> 0:46:18.080 important to remember that Sam created a whole sort of 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:21.800 genre of meme coins that people jokingly called the Sam 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.840 coins that he used to prop up his own business. 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:29.600 So creating his own coin called FTT, withholding most of it, 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:32.839 putting it on the market, buying it back, instructing its 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:35.440 traders and never let it fall below a dollar and 0:46:35.480 --> 0:46:38.319 so that and then letting people borrow off of it, 0:46:38.680 --> 0:46:43.400 So creating this enormous house of cards through meme coins. 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:46.040 And we've seen how meme coins have been sort of 0:46:46.040 --> 0:46:49.120 one of the driving factors of this bull run of people, 0:46:49.400 --> 0:46:51.960 even like the Trump coins and stuff like that, and 0:46:52.040 --> 0:46:57.120 really getting away like the heart of crypto inside, you know, 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.000 sort of meme coin mania and getting away from vitallics 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:02.920 ideals that blockchains can be used for all sorts of 0:47:03.000 --> 0:47:03.560 useful things. 0:47:03.560 --> 0:47:06.560 How weird is it that we have doge coin on 0:47:06.600 --> 0:47:09.680 the Bloomberg terminal type croyp go and you see our 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:15.280 crypto homepage. Right, we're serious business for renal institutional investors 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:18.000 and we have a joke dog coin on here and 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:21.360 we track it every second. Right, No, you're right, so strange. 0:47:21.480 --> 0:47:24.640 It gives it a huge level of credibility. Our thanks 0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:27.680 to Andrew Chow. He's correspondent for Time Magazine. He's the 0:47:27.719 --> 0:47:31.200 author of Cryptomania, Hype Hope and the Fall of Ftx's 0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:34.640 billion dollar Fintech Empire, his book out now. Well. That 0:47:34.640 --> 0:47:36.560 wraps up our first hour of the weekend edition of 0:47:36.560 --> 0:47:39.839 Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg radio Head. In our next hour, 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.880 Rivian's founder and CEO on the VW partnership following a 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:47.400 quarterly update that led to a stock selloff, plus what 0:47:47.680 --> 0:47:51.080 it really is like to drive Rivian's second generation SUV, 0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:54.799 the R one S. Plus two former financial folks on 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:58.200 season three of their HBO series Industry, which kicks off 0:47:58.200 --> 0:48:01.480 this weekend, and for all you math haters out there, 0:48:01.600 --> 0:48:04.719 we have the simple path to loving math. Yes it 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.040 can be done. This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser. 0:48:08.320 --> 0:48:10.920 Stay with us. Today's top stories and global business headlines 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:11.680 are coming up. 0:48:11.840 --> 0:48:16.000 Right now, you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. 0:48:16.160 --> 0:48:19.120 Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm 0:48:19.160 --> 0:48:21.880 Easter Listen on Apple, card Play and ed Bright Auto 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:27.000 with a Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube. 0:48:26.800 --> 0:48:28.719 Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition 0:48:28.800 --> 0:48:31.520 of Bloomberg Business Week, Tim is off Bloomberg' Matt Miller 0:48:31.600 --> 0:48:34.439 joining me in our chats this week, including one about 0:48:34.480 --> 0:48:38.080 Rivian's founder and CEO on the VW partnership, and the 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:41.680 good and the bad of the second generation Rivian suv. 0:48:42.320 --> 0:48:46.200 Also art imitating life in the HBO series Industry, the 0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:49.440 co creators are back on season three plus, cracking the 0:48:49.560 --> 0:48:52.160 Numerous Sea Code. For everyone who has ever thought they 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:54.680 were bad at math, turns out you don't need to 0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:57.319 be a prodigy. First up, one of the few pure 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:00.160 play electric vehicle makers in the US, second only to 0:49:00.239 --> 0:49:03.239 Tesla when it comes to ev output, that is still 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:06.480 struggling though to get production levels up. We're talking about 0:49:06.560 --> 0:49:09.080 Rivian and the stock sold off on the news following 0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:11.839 its latest quarterly update as it stuck to a full 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:16.200 year vehicle production target unchanged from last year. Rivian CEO 0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.000 expects output to grow in twenty twenty five, even with 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:22.200 a plant shutdown looming. Here's Matt Miller joining me this week, 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:24.880 sebbing in for Tim. Matt kicking it off with his 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:26.280 take on Rivian's business. 0:49:26.280 --> 0:49:28.640 If you're a new company, right and you make an 0:49:28.680 --> 0:49:32.319 exciting new product, investors want to see growth. They want 0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:36.560 to see your production double sales only rows three point 0:49:36.560 --> 0:49:39.719 three percent. That's a problem that OURBA scarac. 0:49:39.400 --> 0:49:41.680 Hashowher outputs coming next year though they did. 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:44.440 Say yeah, they said that. But the plans for the 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:47.240 future look good. They're supposed to build a new factory 0:49:47.280 --> 0:49:50.160 in Georgia. They got a five billion dollar injection from 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.520 folk Schwagen. They are building a new factory in South Carolina. 0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:57.759 So at some point you expect production to pick up. 0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:01.080 I wonder, though, how how good the vehicle is. 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:02.480 All right, we're going to talk about that, but you 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:05.200 actually caught up with the chairman and CEO Rivian and 0:50:05.239 --> 0:50:07.319 the founder a little bit earlier on Bloomberg TV. Here's 0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:08.000 what he had to say. 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:11.480 The Volkswagen partnership is something we're really excited about. But 0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:16.520 the focus of this is around our leveraging our network architecture, 0:50:17.000 --> 0:50:20.320 our topology of computers, the pology of electronic ConTroll and 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:22.279 is the EC used in the vehicle, and then of 0:50:22.280 --> 0:50:25.719 course our software stack. It does open the door to 0:50:25.800 --> 0:50:28.759 other types of partnership and activities we could be doing 0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:33.040 with Volkswagen Group, but to date, the core focus and 0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:37.120 the singular focus is around our software and electronics technology. 0:50:37.640 --> 0:50:42.319 So he's saying that because I asked him if Volkswagen 0:50:42.480 --> 0:50:46.240 was going to basically rebody a Rivian to make the Scout. 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:48.400 You know, they bought the Scout brand and they're going 0:50:48.440 --> 0:50:51.880 to revive that awesome old truck, or if you know, 0:50:52.760 --> 0:50:56.560 maybe Volkswagen would be able to make given them more 0:50:56.560 --> 0:50:59.640 production with their South Carolina factory. So I wanted to 0:50:59.640 --> 0:51:03.640 know more about that partnership. So does Hannah Elliott, my 0:51:03.680 --> 0:51:06.160 partner in Hot Pursuit of their partner, Yes, my other 0:51:06.200 --> 0:51:08.800 partner in my podcast Hot Pursuit, and. 0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:11.319 She has actually driven the Rivian. I have not. 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:14.759 She's driven too. She joins us now from Los Angeles. Hannah, 0:51:14.800 --> 0:51:16.920 you drove I think a couple of years ago, the 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:19.520 pickup truck version of the Rivan, the R one T. 0:51:19.960 --> 0:51:22.960 Now they've made improvements to I guess what, the powertrain 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:26.080 and the software, and they have given you a new 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.040 R one S to test out. 0:51:28.560 --> 0:51:30.040 What do you think about their products? 0:51:31.080 --> 0:51:33.360 Yeah, this is the R one S, the second generation, 0:51:33.640 --> 0:51:39.359 and in a word, better, It's better, definitely. The technology 0:51:39.480 --> 0:51:43.359 is more seamless, we have a lot more luxury options, 0:51:43.440 --> 0:51:46.120 like a glass roof that you can make go dark 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:49.480 if you want. We've got heated and ventilated front seats. 0:51:50.200 --> 0:51:53.839 We have actually better driving controls and ride handling, even 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:58.280 though I still think that can be improved. So in short, 0:51:58.680 --> 0:52:03.000 it's better. I don't think it's a perfect product yet, 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.840 and it is really expensive. The R one S that 0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:09.520 I drove was about one hundred thousand dollars and that's 0:52:09.560 --> 0:52:11.640 actually not the top of the line. That was closer 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:16.080 to the entry level side. So yeah, it's getting better. 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.080 I would say it's getting better. A good foil for 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:19.840 those who don't want to buy a Tesla. 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:22.480 Maybe interesting. I gotta say it looks like a kind 0:52:22.480 --> 0:52:25.600 of a land rover meets suburban with cartoon eyes on 0:52:25.680 --> 0:52:29.000 it as I love it as its lights in the front. 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:31.080 That's what it looks like to me, Like you could 0:52:31.080 --> 0:52:32.799 put this right a little bit. 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:36.160 Well, it's got a signature look because with other models, right, 0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:39.520 and they all kind of have that signature completely. 0:52:39.800 --> 0:52:42.040 Of course, we have the truck, the R one T truck, 0:52:42.239 --> 0:52:44.240 We've got the R one S which is the suv. 0:52:44.360 --> 0:52:48.080 We've got the R two promised and coming. So it's 0:52:48.200 --> 0:52:50.759 kind of you know, Rivian has decided that maybe they 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.279 could be a foil for Tesla. That's you know what. 0:52:53.320 --> 0:52:56.480 The cyber truck is very polarizing in its looks, and 0:52:56.640 --> 0:52:59.880 the Model X has these goaling doors that really grab attention. 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.680 So yeah, Rivian is kind of going maybe for a 0:53:02.719 --> 0:53:07.640 more quiet luxury like Patagonia wearing style, which I think 0:53:07.719 --> 0:53:10.840 is smart. You know, they're cultivating their own buyers. 0:53:10.880 --> 0:53:11.520 It makes sense. 0:53:11.719 --> 0:53:13.880 Does it matter though, unless I mean unless they can 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:15.799 produce more does it really matter? Like you know what 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:17.480 I mean, it's really cool to see what they're doing, 0:53:17.480 --> 0:53:19.040 but don't they have to make more cars? 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:22.200 Yeah, they really need to make more cars. We already 0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:26.080 know that they're pausing production in some of their factories. Unfortunately, 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:28.919 they're dealing with supply chain issues. You know, of the 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:31.480 four models that you can pre order of the R 0:53:31.560 --> 0:53:35.320 one s right now online, only half of them or 0:53:35.360 --> 0:53:37.400 a fewer are even being delivered. 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:38.560 Only the dual motor. 0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:41.200 We're waiting for a try motor and a quad motor, 0:53:41.239 --> 0:53:43.720 which they're saying we'll have over a thousand horse power. 0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:46.439 So I'm really excited to test those and drive those, 0:53:46.480 --> 0:53:49.359 but they're not here yet. Now. Rivian will take your 0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:51.759 money if you want to pre order them, but it's 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:55.080 going to be like next year at the earliest before 0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:56.759 we see really a wider range. 0:53:56.800 --> 0:53:58.319 So yeah, they need to like make more. 0:53:58.480 --> 0:54:00.520 It makes sense that the I mean, if you want 0:54:00.560 --> 0:54:03.719 an electric vehicle to fit your whole family that's made 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.400 in America, but you're not like a Maga man, then 0:54:07.480 --> 0:54:09.879 you may not want to get one from Elon Musk, right. 0:54:10.560 --> 0:54:12.920 Yeah, and you know what that applies to a lot 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:15.360 of people, especially in California. I just read a really 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:17.440 interesting opinion piece about that. Go ahead. 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:20.520 Yeah, so, but I wonder why it doesn't handle that well. 0:54:20.520 --> 0:54:23.400 I mean, recently, I've driven the F one fifty Lightning 0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:26.520 that has a lot of power. It's very big and heavy. 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:31.400 It handles well. The Kia EV nine. We both like that, Hannah. 0:54:31.480 --> 0:54:34.640 It's a big family suv that handles well and is heavy. 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:37.759 The BMWXM, even if you don't like the styling or 0:54:37.760 --> 0:54:40.640 don't really understand what BMW is doing with it. It's 0:54:40.840 --> 0:54:44.320 very heavy, but it's got this active you know, anti 0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:49.640 roll technology that keeps it flat around corners. Why can't 0:54:49.719 --> 0:54:52.439 the Rivian I mean, why don't they have the tech 0:54:53.000 --> 0:54:56.760 or the design to make it work around the corners. 0:54:57.320 --> 0:55:00.480 It's really disappointing. I mean, of course, part of it 0:55:00.520 --> 0:55:03.880 is just physics. This is a seven thousand pound suv. 0:55:03.960 --> 0:55:05.680 It's almost eighty inches tall. 0:55:05.840 --> 0:55:06.440 It's big. 0:55:06.520 --> 0:55:09.319 It's like a rolling battery. That is what it That's 0:55:09.360 --> 0:55:11.440 what it is. So some of it is just physics. 0:55:11.840 --> 0:55:14.960 But to your point, others have been able to control 0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:18.640 the role in sort of this Frankenstein lumber that I 0:55:18.719 --> 0:55:21.600 really felt in the R one s and it's it's 0:55:21.640 --> 0:55:24.160 too bad, you know, making cars as hard. If you 0:55:24.200 --> 0:55:27.719 have a company like Volkswagen that's been making vehicles for decades, 0:55:28.160 --> 0:55:33.359 they just naturally have better engineering than a company that's 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:36.480 a startup that is coming from the tech background, so 0:55:36.560 --> 0:55:38.680 I think part of it is just experience, and Rivian 0:55:38.760 --> 0:55:40.759 is new at making cars, all right. 0:55:40.920 --> 0:55:42.640 So bottom line, did you like it? 0:55:42.680 --> 0:55:42.960 Though? 0:55:43.239 --> 0:55:45.200 I mean, I know you look outside, you look inside. 0:55:45.280 --> 0:55:46.560 I mean, did you like the ride? 0:55:47.000 --> 0:55:50.840 It doesn't drive great? No? No, A short answer, no, 0:55:51.120 --> 0:55:53.719 I give me, give me the VA give me I had. 0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:55.680 I was in an old Resto mod right after the 0:55:55.719 --> 0:55:58.919 Rivian and it just felt a lot more fun to drive. 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:00.799 A couple other out of these. 0:56:00.840 --> 0:56:03.719 I thought the sunroof thing is cool, so they have, 0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:07.040 you know, a transparent sunroof. The touch of a button 0:56:07.080 --> 0:56:11.200 becomes opaque, which is I think interesting at least technology, 0:56:11.600 --> 0:56:14.840 but it doesn't have the kind of basic if you 0:56:14.880 --> 0:56:17.480 walk up to your car with your keyfob in your pocket, 0:56:17.520 --> 0:56:20.640 like every vehicle these days, unlocks for you, you know, 0:56:20.680 --> 0:56:23.360 and then locks when you walk away, what's the Rivian 0:56:23.520 --> 0:56:24.560 How does that operate? 0:56:24.960 --> 0:56:27.839 So this seems like a really small thing, and it 0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:30.440 kind of is because it's just an issue with unlocking 0:56:30.480 --> 0:56:33.319 the car, but it's a big thing because we have 0:56:33.400 --> 0:56:36.360 to unlock and open the door handles every time we 0:56:36.440 --> 0:56:39.520 want to use the product. And the thing is you 0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:42.920 can either download an app to unlock the vehicle, or 0:56:42.960 --> 0:56:45.040 you have to carry around a key card and sort 0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:48.040 of this plastic pouch which you wave on the door 0:56:48.080 --> 0:56:50.880 handles and then they sort of pivot out from the 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:53.680 side of the vehicle. There's a little bit of a delay. 0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:55.680 You have to hit the car just right on the 0:56:55.719 --> 0:56:59.680 side of the cars. It's not intuitive, and the car 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:02.680 does recognize the key, like you said, as you walk 0:57:02.760 --> 0:57:07.600 up to it. It just this technology is not solving problem. 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:10.719 That was Bloomberg News auto columnist Hannah Elliott and co 0:57:10.800 --> 0:57:13.120 host of the Bloomberg Hot Pursuit podcast that she does 0:57:13.120 --> 0:57:15.680 with Matt miller Man, of course joining us there as well. 0:57:16.200 --> 0:57:18.320 If taking a Rivian for a test drive this week 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:20.920 and is perhaps not your jam, how about diving into 0:57:20.960 --> 0:57:22.840 a world that is near and dear to us. The 0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:25.640 HBO series Industry has been described as a gen Z 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:29.120 banking drama and made its debut in twenty twenty. It 0:57:29.160 --> 0:57:31.880 centers on a group of college graduates working at Pierpoint 0:57:31.920 --> 0:57:34.440 in Company, a fictional London investment bank. 0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:36.760 I got an email about a girl on your desk 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:37.280 dealing with. 0:57:37.240 --> 0:57:39.200 Some embezzlement and a missing daddy. 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:43.640 The press on to public face for this scandal. 0:57:43.960 --> 0:57:46.480 I wanted my friend, can you use me? 0:57:46.880 --> 0:57:49.280 Does it appall you that I have somehow managed to 0:57:49.280 --> 0:57:49.640 make it. 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:52.000 On my own? Everyone's collateral. 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:54.440 We hold the line, where's your stomach? 0:57:55.080 --> 0:57:58.520 I hope you all enjoy feeling your flesh sea in 0:57:58.560 --> 0:57:59.440 the hell you've created. 0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:02.600 That's from the HBO series industry. The writers and co 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:06.040 creators Mickey Down and Conrad Ka joined Bloomberg's Matt Miller 0:58:06.080 --> 0:58:08.400 and me in studio to talk about the series now 0:58:08.440 --> 0:58:10.200 and it's third year. Did you ever think it was 0:58:10.200 --> 0:58:11.320 going to make it to season three? 0:58:11.360 --> 0:58:11.840 Of course not. 0:58:13.280 --> 0:58:15.360 No, we never think so. It was right as if 0:58:15.400 --> 0:58:18.400 we're writing the last episode. But yeah, it's a privilege. 0:58:18.760 --> 0:58:21.840 I mean, the odds, honestly in the media industry are 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:26.440 against you getting two extensions, right, And that's a pretty 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:27.920 amazing achievement, the. 0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:30.960 Aldo against getting season one. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's 0:58:31.000 --> 0:58:32.800 an amazing achievement. We're really happy. 0:58:32.840 --> 0:58:34.640 Well, Conrad, tell us what it's meant for you. 0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:37.400 Oh, it's tremendous. I mean, me and Mickey have known 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:39.160 each other and we're now in our mid thirties. I 0:58:39.240 --> 0:58:41.080 know Mickey since he was eighteen, and to get this. 0:58:41.240 --> 0:58:43.360 You know, we're best friends. To get to do this 0:58:43.440 --> 0:58:45.320 on this scale has been a dream come true. And 0:58:46.080 --> 0:58:48.200 doing it with HBO, they really took a huge pun 0:58:48.280 --> 0:58:50.640 on us. We were very, very green and very inexperienced, 0:58:50.680 --> 0:58:52.480 and you can't really make TV anywhere else. 0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:54.680 Well, and I know we've talked about this. I was 0:58:54.720 --> 0:58:56.840 thinking about this all of us. I mean I sit 0:58:56.880 --> 0:58:58.560 in our makeup room or in our newsroom, like I've 0:58:58.560 --> 0:59:01.160 got an idea for a show, its epen happened. I'm 0:59:01.200 --> 0:59:03.080 still here and I'm happy to be here. But I 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:06.000 mean you guys actually had an idea and it worked out. 0:59:06.080 --> 0:59:07.120 How did that come to be? 0:59:08.080 --> 0:59:13.320 Well, we me Mett Oxford, we went in too Charison Finance. 0:59:13.440 --> 0:59:15.680 I worked in investment banking, cornas on a trading floor. 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:18.120 That's how the story, I mean, that's it was. It 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:21.000 was based on our experiences originally, but we all have. 0:59:20.960 --> 0:59:24.040 Had interesting, crazy experiences that's going to have. 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.360 But not like they do on the trading floor, right, 0:59:26.400 --> 0:59:28.280 I mean the trading floor is on another level. There's 0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:32.080 a story today about an i caat broker who had 0:59:32.120 --> 0:59:35.720 a client from City who could just continued to harass her, 0:59:36.000 --> 0:59:38.800 and she went to HR and said, this is a problem. 0:59:38.880 --> 0:59:41.440 The guy's making me feel uncomfortable. And her boss was like, 0:59:41.440 --> 0:59:43.560 I don't care. He brings us so many trades. 0:59:43.720 --> 0:59:47.080 Suck it up. Basically, that's not unusual. 0:59:46.600 --> 0:59:46.880 Is it. 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:49.000 No, it feels it feels very realistic. I mean, some 0:59:49.040 --> 0:59:51.200 people say to us a criticism the show, they think 0:59:51.200 --> 0:59:54.160 it's hyper sensationalized. But we experienced you know, I worked 0:59:54.200 --> 0:59:55.480 in a trading fo for three Is it a big 0:59:55.520 --> 0:59:57.880 American bank? This is pre me too. But it still 0:59:57.880 --> 1:00:00.600 felt like a very much a hierarchical place where women 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:03.000 were having to behave in a certain way, in a 1:00:03.040 --> 1:00:06.160 way men certainly, you know, weren't expected to be honest. 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:08.720 Well, we'll go back to how it happened. I mean, 1:00:08.760 --> 1:00:10.960 because it's like I said, we all have great ideas, 1:00:11.280 --> 1:00:12.440 like how did you make it happen? 1:00:12.920 --> 1:00:15.520 Well, we were working with a producer called Jane Tranter, 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:18.160 who was a big cheese at the BBC before setting 1:00:18.200 --> 1:00:21.240 up her own studio, and we were doing something totally 1:00:21.280 --> 1:00:24.200 different for her, and then she asked. She basically discovered 1:00:24.200 --> 1:00:26.400 that we were two ex bankers, and she said, did 1:00:26.440 --> 1:00:28.400 you ever want to write about this world? And we 1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:31.240 had written about it we'd written a really bad script 1:00:31.320 --> 1:00:33.720 about it, basically based on our own experiences, and it 1:00:33.760 --> 1:00:36.920 was incredibly boring and formless, but it was a script 1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:39.280 about finance, and the way that we opened up is 1:00:39.280 --> 1:00:42.000 obviously there's loads of depictions of finance we all know 1:00:42.120 --> 1:00:44.040 and love, but that always from the top down. There 1:00:44.200 --> 1:00:45.920 was about the people who have the most power in 1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:48.640 the industry. So our way of going through it was 1:00:48.920 --> 1:00:50.480 the new lens was to go through the people who 1:00:50.480 --> 1:00:52.440 have the least amount of power, people going to the 1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:54.920 job for the first time, which was reflective of our experience. 1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.080 And they're still but they're still partying like constally, right, 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:01.120 I mean, is it the same aim you think post 1:01:01.320 --> 1:01:04.560 me too in this new era as it was back 1:01:04.600 --> 1:01:06.760 in the days of you know, Heaven and Hell parties 1:01:06.760 --> 1:01:07.720 and the Predator's Ball. 1:01:08.760 --> 1:01:11.720 I think, I mean, look that these places have to evolve, 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:13.120 They have to evolve with the times, they have to 1:01:13.200 --> 1:01:15.480 keep up with the times. HR departments are incredibly much 1:01:15.520 --> 1:01:17.680 stronger now than they were ten years ago. But I think, 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:20.560 you know, I think human behavior, I mean this, Some 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:22.440 people say this show is quite a cynical take on 1:01:22.480 --> 1:01:24.680 the world, but me and Mickey have a quite quite say, 1:01:24.760 --> 1:01:27.360 quite cynical take on the business. So I think it's 1:01:27.360 --> 1:01:30.360 a pretty realistic depiction of how things still still unfold. 1:01:30.480 --> 1:01:32.440 How do you kind of keep the story going or 1:01:32.480 --> 1:01:34.040 how do you think about what drives it. 1:01:34.320 --> 1:01:36.320 We have very good writers, I mean, we have insane 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:38.080 the good writers room, like me and Mickey are sort 1:01:38.080 --> 1:01:40.360 of standing on the shoulders of really strong collaborators. So 1:01:40.520 --> 1:01:42.120 we go into the room for twelve weeks, we break 1:01:42.120 --> 1:01:44.200 the episodes of writers. We go in and right then 1:01:44.440 --> 1:01:47.440 you know it's a contemporary show. We loved it. We ironically, 1:01:47.720 --> 1:01:49.320 given we were both spot out by the business, we 1:01:49.720 --> 1:01:52.200 find finance fascinating now that we were writing about it 1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:53.440 rather than doing it, if that makes sense. 1:01:53.440 --> 1:01:56.200 We've got great consultants as well, one of which is 1:01:56.560 --> 1:01:59.000 quite a well known person who doesn't want to be named. Yeah, 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:04.880 and he absolutely loves you know, using ours shows that bash. 1:02:04.720 --> 1:02:08.200 People used to work well billions right, you think about billions, right. 1:02:08.200 --> 1:02:10.560 They had some really incredible consultant student right to make 1:02:10.600 --> 1:02:12.960 sure that the hedge fun world, right, that investment world 1:02:13.280 --> 1:02:16.040 was depicted pretty accurately for all of us. It was 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:18.160 like a guessing game of like who was it based on. 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:21.680 That wasn't a guessing game at all. 1:02:23.320 --> 1:02:25.280 I know, I know, but you know that there were 1:02:25.400 --> 1:02:29.000 nuances that you maybe wanted to still figure out. 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:32.640 Do you get any commentary from the pros, Like if 1:02:32.680 --> 1:02:36.120 you're hanging out at a pub in the city, does 1:02:36.160 --> 1:02:40.040 someone say, oh, that show is actually very realistic or no, 1:02:40.160 --> 1:02:41.240 that's way off, that's not. 1:02:41.200 --> 1:02:43.959 How by people in the pub all the time. 1:02:44.640 --> 1:02:46.520 They often show their own narcissism as well, because they 1:02:46.560 --> 1:02:48.360 come up and say, oh, that character is quite clearly 1:02:48.480 --> 1:02:52.440 me so I don't know who you are, but yeah, no, no, 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:54.720 people in the business say it's quite accurate. We get 1:02:54.760 --> 1:02:55.760 we get approached quite. 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:57.400 I still get a lot of LinkedIn messages saying you 1:02:57.480 --> 1:03:00.120 got me into finance by your show, which is quite. 1:03:00.120 --> 1:03:02.800 We didn't actually write it as a recruitment sal but ironical. 1:03:02.560 --> 1:03:05.280 Because I think is very interesting because you have a 1:03:05.280 --> 1:03:09.760 cynical take on the industry. It's very dramatic in a 1:03:09.760 --> 1:03:13.560 way that maybe people don't necessarily want to be involved with. 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:16.520 And yet you're you're recruiting people to the industry. Do 1:03:16.560 --> 1:03:18.840 you find that more often than you're having people making 1:03:18.840 --> 1:03:19.920 people leave the industry? 1:03:20.080 --> 1:03:21.880 I think it's you know, obviously re left it, But 1:03:21.920 --> 1:03:24.520 there's a sudden amount of seduction in the show, and 1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:26.680 it makes this show look it makes the industry look sexy. 1:03:27.040 --> 1:03:28.880 Someone said to me the other day, you've made banking 1:03:28.920 --> 1:03:30.960 sexy again, and I said, well, that's that's exactly why 1:03:30.960 --> 1:03:31.560 I set out to do. 1:03:31.760 --> 1:03:35.680 So I'm very happy you also get into ethical investing, 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:37.840 which I think is interesting. We talk a lot, you know, 1:03:38.040 --> 1:03:40.960 in the Bloomberg world about the rethink of ESG right 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:42.840 going through a lot of changes. Why did you choose 1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:45.040 that topic. Is it just because it's kind of top 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:47.280 of mine right now or has been for a while. 1:03:47.280 --> 1:03:48.960 It felt like it was in Yeah, as we say, 1:03:49.320 --> 1:03:51.560 when we start breaking the season, we have the consultant 1:03:51.600 --> 1:03:54.240 and we just talk about big macro trends and themes. 1:03:54.280 --> 1:03:56.120 It felt like something that we wanted the show to 1:03:56.120 --> 1:03:58.040 be more intelligible in the third season. We didn't want 1:03:58.040 --> 1:03:59.640 it to be just loads of finance tagno bubble, so 1:03:59.640 --> 1:04:01.040 we said it around an I p O. We thought 1:04:01.080 --> 1:04:03.000 that was more in the world. Yes, Jesus is one 1:04:03.000 --> 1:04:05.520 of those things which I think it's an acronym, but 1:04:05.520 --> 1:04:07.560 you still kind of you understand the real world impact 1:04:07.560 --> 1:04:09.760 of what it is, and also the show, The show 1:04:09.800 --> 1:04:11.160 functions that we kind of call it a bit of 1:04:11.200 --> 1:04:13.120 a high toned satire. It's always got its kind of 1:04:13.200 --> 1:04:14.680 tongue in its cheek a little bit, and it felt 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:16.200 like the perfect thing, you know, if you think the 1:04:16.240 --> 1:04:17.840 show is cynical, it feels like the perfect thing for 1:04:17.920 --> 1:04:20.680 us to kind of try and interrogate and undercut a 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:23.280 little bit. It's a good avenue for humor, to be honest. 1:04:23.640 --> 1:04:26.800 How do you like working with HBO and and what's 1:04:26.840 --> 1:04:28.320 it like? I think you said it's the only place 1:04:28.400 --> 1:04:29.720 that's really making TV right now. 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:31.240 Why do you say that, Well, I just think it's 1:04:31.280 --> 1:04:34.120 it's it's still the gold standard. It's still it's still, 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:36.400 you know, the home of prestige television. I think that, 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:39.320 you know, we have no experience working with anyonhere else really, 1:04:39.360 --> 1:04:40.480 so it's not easy for me to say. 1:04:41.080 --> 1:04:43.240 You talk to people on other shows, you've been doing 1:04:43.240 --> 1:04:45.360 this for years. Yeah, you've got three seasons. 1:04:45.520 --> 1:04:47.040 And I always say, and you know, I'm always a 1:04:47.040 --> 1:04:49.120 standard by the amount of people who say to us, 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:51.440 you have no idea how much latitude they give you. 1:04:51.480 --> 1:04:54.120 They give us amazing notes, they're they're very collaborative, they. 1:04:53.960 --> 1:04:55.600 Push, they give you. 1:04:56.240 --> 1:04:59.160 They never center ourselves, they don't toast to censeer ourselves. 1:04:59.360 --> 1:05:02.240 They always have to push ourselves into darker places, more 1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:05.160 interesting places, more human places. That very Mickey says, they're 1:05:05.200 --> 1:05:07.040 amazing collaboratives, very incisive. 1:05:08.600 --> 1:05:12.000 Yeah, I mean, look, I mean I think a lot 1:05:12.040 --> 1:05:14.360 of TV is censored now, a lot of it's quite bland. 1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:15.760 I think a lot of it's quite down the line. 1:05:15.840 --> 1:05:17.400 I still think HBO is the place where you go 1:05:17.440 --> 1:05:19.120 if you want to make stuff that's provocative. 1:05:19.240 --> 1:05:21.320 And it was definitely if you think you go back 1:05:21.320 --> 1:05:23.240 to Soprano as you go to Sex and the City, 1:05:23.280 --> 1:05:25.040 like it was a moment in time where I feel like, 1:05:25.080 --> 1:05:27.800 all of a sudden, TV really did push the limit 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:29.600 right and they did set the standard for it, and 1:05:29.640 --> 1:05:31.520 it does feel like, I don't know, I don't know 1:05:31.560 --> 1:05:33.080 if it's gone backwards a little bit. 1:05:33.200 --> 1:05:34.960 I liked episodes. Have you seen episodes. 1:05:35.680 --> 1:05:39.960 It's a great show about people exactly, people from Britain. 1:05:40.280 --> 1:05:42.080 They come to LA to make a show. 1:05:42.280 --> 1:05:44.160 And when you say the HBO is giving you notes, 1:05:44.200 --> 1:05:45.920 I'm thinking about the way they did it and that 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:46.480 it's a good. 1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:48.680 Depiction of it. Actually it's a good show. 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:49.160 It's funny. 1:05:49.320 --> 1:05:52.720 So what about the streaming model. 1:05:52.760 --> 1:05:55.160 I mean, we saw these strikes that went on for 1:05:55.200 --> 1:05:59.000 so long last year, and it's so much harder for 1:05:59.840 --> 1:06:01.840 actors to get what they want out of it. 1:06:03.320 --> 1:06:04.640 There's so much concern. 1:06:04.360 --> 1:06:07.360 About you know, Ai, there's so much happening in media 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:09.120 right now. What do you think about being in it 1:06:09.120 --> 1:06:11.080 at this time in your life or at this time 1:06:11.240 --> 1:06:12.080 in its life. 1:06:12.200 --> 1:06:14.680 Well, it's challenging. It's like whenever big tech disrupts anything, 1:06:14.720 --> 1:06:17.280 it doesn't really think about it acts first and then 1:06:17.280 --> 1:06:19.480 doesn't really think about the long term consequences of what 1:06:19.560 --> 1:06:22.400 it's doing. I mean, for the streaming model, I mean 1:06:22.440 --> 1:06:24.000 I can just talk about it practically in terms of 1:06:24.200 --> 1:06:26.200 we really like the fact that HBO put the show 1:06:26.200 --> 1:06:28.280 out week to week, like and that you can't binge 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:30.520 it and those a very bingeable show, like you know, 1:06:30.520 --> 1:06:33.000 there are seasons of TV which you know, Disney put 1:06:33.040 --> 1:06:35.760 out and they had to have a cultural moment the 1:06:35.840 --> 1:06:38.040 last about two days, whereas HBO make it more of 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:39.600 an event driven thing. You know, the show is going 1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:41.280 to f a weeks. Hopefully it's going to be a 1:06:41.320 --> 1:06:41.920 bit of a conversation. 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:42.600 We really back to. 1:06:42.600 --> 1:06:44.320 The old times of like destination. 1:06:44.080 --> 1:06:44.800 Or you know. 1:06:46.320 --> 1:06:48.439 On Sunday nights and people talk about the Monday morning 1:06:48.480 --> 1:06:49.200 is it's not rockest? 1:06:49.480 --> 1:06:51.680 Yeah, it was like that with you know, Game of 1:06:51.720 --> 1:06:53.800 Thrones and Silicon Valley and Deep when they were all 1:06:53.840 --> 1:06:54.400 on Sure. 1:06:54.320 --> 1:06:56.960 I feel like it's kind of weirdly disrespectful of people's 1:06:56.960 --> 1:06:58.600 work because people, you know, like the one hundred and 1:06:58.640 --> 1:07:00.440 fifty people worked on our show for a year of 1:07:00.480 --> 1:07:03.040 their lives. For it to like go in a weekend 1:07:03.120 --> 1:07:03.880 feels a little. 1:07:03.720 --> 1:07:05.360 Bit like one rainy weekend and we start just bin, 1:07:05.480 --> 1:07:07.520 we've all done. Exactly where do you guys want to 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:09.080 take the show or how do you think about it? 1:07:09.960 --> 1:07:11.720 We want to keep doing it. I mean, as I 1:07:11.800 --> 1:07:13.520 joked earlier about the fact that you know, we never 1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:15.160 know whether we're going to come back on that we 1:07:15.160 --> 1:07:17.640 always right the last episode of each season to feel 1:07:17.640 --> 1:07:18.680 like it could be a finale. 1:07:18.720 --> 1:07:19.800 But with the door slightly a. 1:07:19.800 --> 1:07:21.160 Jar, that's a little tough though. 1:07:21.280 --> 1:07:23.120 Yeah, I mean, well, that's that's going back to what 1:07:23.200 --> 1:07:25.040 you said about that, that's the business at the moment. 1:07:25.080 --> 1:07:27.360 You're not guaranteed the third fourth season. It's getting a 1:07:27.360 --> 1:07:30.640 third season. That feels totally wild to me. So I 1:07:30.680 --> 1:07:33.040 think we love to continue it. We directed the last 1:07:33.040 --> 1:07:36.440 two episodes, which was a new experience without ruining it. 1:07:36.520 --> 1:07:38.080 You know the show good which time you guys directed? 1:07:38.120 --> 1:07:39.000 First time we directed? 1:07:39.120 --> 1:07:41.600 Yeah, And then the show ends in a very bold 1:07:41.680 --> 1:07:44.360 note which allows for new stories but also close the 1:07:44.360 --> 1:07:46.600 door another one. So I think there's more to be said. 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:49.800 It's interesting that you make it, that you're making it 1:07:49.840 --> 1:07:52.680 in a way, I don't want to say, more serious, 1:07:52.920 --> 1:07:56.040 but it's like the arc that Barry took, where it 1:07:56.080 --> 1:07:58.560 started out as a comedy and became a drama. You 1:07:58.600 --> 1:08:02.040 know what's what's ahead if you get a season four? 1:08:02.080 --> 1:08:03.480 I mean, do you do you continue that? 1:08:03.600 --> 1:08:04.880 Are touris the. 1:08:04.840 --> 1:08:07.080 Show kind of like it just matured in the sense that, 1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:08.920 like me and Mickey and all the actors were very 1:08:08.920 --> 1:08:10.640 young when it first aired, and the show had a 1:08:10.720 --> 1:08:13.600 very ya feel. It was about drug sex, rock and roll, 1:08:13.760 --> 1:08:16.840 young rads. But you know they're now in a position where, 1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:19.840 both fictionally and in real life, that they've grown up. 1:08:19.880 --> 1:08:22.200 We've grown up. We just can't help but write about 1:08:22.360 --> 1:08:25.160 sort of more mature, deeper, more adult themes. So I 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:27.200 think that's where the residents you're talking about comes and 1:08:27.200 --> 1:08:28.640 I think we would just continue to do that as 1:08:28.960 --> 1:08:30.400 if if we get given the opportunity. 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:32.200 Is there ever, like an offshoot of it as you 1:08:32.200 --> 1:08:33.360 guys think, Do you think about it? 1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:36.240 What other products are you spinning out? 1:08:36.280 --> 1:08:41.160 The pairpoint universe eighteen spare points really cool? 1:08:41.640 --> 1:08:44.959 Do you guys miss being in the world of finance? 1:08:45.080 --> 1:08:46.800 I mean you get to kind of live it by 1:08:46.800 --> 1:08:47.640 writing about it. 1:08:48.000 --> 1:08:49.599 We get to live it writing about it. We get 1:08:49.640 --> 1:08:52.840 to meet really influential people within it. I am so 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:54.840 much more fascinated now by it than I was when 1:08:54.840 --> 1:08:56.640 I was actually in it because I was doing you know, 1:08:56.680 --> 1:09:00.639 I was the junior banker than European Investment Bank doing 1:09:00.680 --> 1:09:03.360 Excel spreadsheets. I wasn't actually having to write about the thing. 1:09:03.439 --> 1:09:04.599 But you loved it when you were there. 1:09:04.760 --> 1:09:08.799 Oh, I didn't love it at all. We were shameless. 1:09:08.840 --> 1:09:11.400 We were chewed up and spat out. I was unceremoniously 1:09:11.520 --> 1:09:12.920 thrown out the door of Mormon Stanley. 1:09:13.439 --> 1:09:16.680 What's the city like post Brexit? I mean, I know. 1:09:18.920 --> 1:09:20.519 Back in the day when I worked in London in 1:09:20.560 --> 1:09:23.000 the early two thousands, and it was like the heart 1:09:23.160 --> 1:09:25.800 of global finance. Right of course, New York is also 1:09:26.800 --> 1:09:30.519 incredibly significant but there was a concern that post Brexit 1:09:30.600 --> 1:09:33.080 that would fall apart and it would all go to 1:09:33.120 --> 1:09:35.320 the continent, which I don't think it has happened at all. 1:09:35.640 --> 1:09:37.040 I don't think it has. I don't think it has. 1:09:37.080 --> 1:09:39.160 I mean just I mean culturally, just walking around the 1:09:39.200 --> 1:09:42.600 city or walking around London, you feel the impact and 1:09:42.960 --> 1:09:46.200 atmosphere of finance still. I mean, every single person and 1:09:46.240 --> 1:09:48.240 their brother is wearing a vest and coming out of 1:09:48.240 --> 1:09:50.439 a part on the shoesday. So it feels like, I 1:09:50.439 --> 1:09:53.720 don't know, I don't know, it feels obviously, I don't know. 1:09:53.760 --> 1:09:56.720 It feels maybe it feels and less electric than it did. 1:09:56.800 --> 1:09:59.160 I mean, just speaking to our friends high up and 1:09:59.240 --> 1:10:02.360 big invested thanks like just the way the way you're 1:10:02.360 --> 1:10:04.320 allowed to behave for slightly different that's probably had a 1:10:04.320 --> 1:10:04.880 different effect. 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:05.880 I'm wrong. 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:07.920 But all the bold brackets like Goldman and always good 1:10:07.920 --> 1:10:10.280 that their European hobby is still wondering. 1:10:10.280 --> 1:10:13.559 It's not like they moved, but for a minute they 1:10:13.720 --> 1:10:16.360 thought about, hey, maybe we go to Frankfurt, and the 1:10:16.479 --> 1:10:19.639 and the employees kind of said no, I'm not going 1:10:19.680 --> 1:10:21.479 to Frankfort, no matter how much you paid. 1:10:22.120 --> 1:10:25.280 But they've come back and the cap and bonuses is 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:28.479 no longer there, and I feel like this new government 1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:32.160 is making inroads to having a relationship with the finance 1:10:32.200 --> 1:10:34.720 community Europe again, with Europe again. Yeah, so I think 1:10:34.760 --> 1:10:36.800 maybe we're just going to go back eight years. 1:10:37.520 --> 1:10:39.479 What are you guys? So I'm fascinating about the current 1:10:39.520 --> 1:10:40.280 financial world. 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:46.679 Do you do you caught up in the stock slide 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:47.400 the last few days? 1:10:47.439 --> 1:10:49.920 I mean, were you watching the non farm payrolls number? 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:54.440 I thought it was very good viral marketing for US 1:10:54.000 --> 1:10:55.639 sell off from Japan. 1:10:56.640 --> 1:10:58.559 We get we get paid in dollars, so we often 1:10:58.640 --> 1:11:03.040 look at Mickey Offering Monitoring Central BAGUS to see if 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:04.600 we're going to lose a couple of thousand dollars on 1:11:04.600 --> 1:11:06.840 our paycheck. That's about as much of our finance. 1:11:06.479 --> 1:11:10.280 Interest goes interesting, all right, fascinating stuff. 1:11:10.360 --> 1:11:12.320 No, it is really, you know, I don't know, it's 1:11:12.360 --> 1:11:13.920 a look you're having fun. It sounds like you find 1:11:13.920 --> 1:11:15.800 out if there's I don't know, the third season just 1:11:15.840 --> 1:11:18.320 getting it away. So I feel terrible to talk about 1:11:18.320 --> 1:11:20.280 a fourth season. But we'll see, right what happens. I mean, 1:11:20.320 --> 1:11:22.439 it's really gone on a lot longer than I bet 1:11:22.479 --> 1:11:23.040 you guys thought. 1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:25.280 Oh my God, Yeah, for sure, for sure. 1:11:25.320 --> 1:11:26.880 I would just say it's a quick sales pitch. If 1:11:27.160 --> 1:11:28.880 if you were turned off by seasons one and two, 1:11:29.000 --> 1:11:31.680 I think season three you could almost watch Cold and 1:11:31.720 --> 1:11:33.679 it's a really universal and engaging story. 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:36.200 So why would he turned off by seasons one? 1:11:36.240 --> 1:11:37.680 No, I'm just I'm just saying, you know, because some 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:39.439 people thought it was, you know, like. 1:11:39.520 --> 1:11:43.560 Is your audience? Is your audience more gen Z and millennials? 1:11:43.600 --> 1:11:45.200 Do you do? You don't know hownect with it. 1:11:45.320 --> 1:11:47.360 I don't know how many gen Z people watch TV, 1:11:47.479 --> 1:11:49.360 to be honest, I mean, but it's definitely I would 1:11:49.360 --> 1:11:51.720 say it's it's Skew's younger. But we're you know, we're 1:11:51.720 --> 1:11:53.599 hoping to as I said before, like the shows will 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:54.200 come more adults. 1:11:54.200 --> 1:11:56.920 So hopefully if you over sit down with you and say, look, 1:11:56.960 --> 1:12:00.360 you're not getting the forty five to fifty five year old. 1:12:00.360 --> 1:12:02.520 It's like, do you look at the demographication? 1:12:02.760 --> 1:12:06.000 No, No, I think I think it's a it's a 1:12:06.040 --> 1:12:06.880 broad demographic. 1:12:06.920 --> 1:12:09.599 I mean, yeah, you know my father in. 1:12:09.560 --> 1:12:12.240 Law who's the next judge, who in his sixties loves 1:12:12.240 --> 1:12:13.760 the show, but he said he would love there for 1:12:13.840 --> 1:12:16.160 me a button, which just skipped all the sex scenes. 1:12:16.840 --> 1:12:18.479 He likes the business and he likes the finance. 1:12:18.479 --> 1:12:19.680 He doesn't want to to see any of these young 1:12:19.680 --> 1:12:24.400 people having sex, he says, But but I think, look, 1:12:24.439 --> 1:12:26.640 the show is mature, much more mature than it was 1:12:27.320 --> 1:12:28.240 explosive season. 1:12:28.280 --> 1:12:29.720 What do you people get out of it? Just to 1:12:29.800 --> 1:12:31.600 kind of wrap up, Micky, let me ask you. 1:12:31.680 --> 1:12:35.120 First, look, it's not on the dactive show. It's not preachy. 1:12:35.200 --> 1:12:37.720 I think it's really really entertaining. I think it has 1:12:37.760 --> 1:12:40.120 This is the most explosive seasons yet, and it's just 1:12:40.160 --> 1:12:40.679 a lot of fun. 1:12:40.760 --> 1:12:42.759 It's I think, you know, it's it's. 1:12:42.760 --> 1:12:44.800 Very very addictive, and I think people will enjoy it 1:12:44.800 --> 1:12:46.559 for that reason as well. And if it says something 1:12:46.600 --> 1:12:47.839 about the world, and that's a plus. 1:12:48.160 --> 1:12:49.560 Can't read Le's thirty seconds. 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:51.040 For you, I think it will. It's one of the 1:12:51.040 --> 1:12:52.920 few TV shows in which I think will force you 1:12:52.960 --> 1:12:55.920 to put down your phone because I'm not second screening, 1:12:55.920 --> 1:12:58.480 because it's engaging, it's dialogue driven. Turn on the subtitles. 1:12:58.479 --> 1:12:59.679 There are loads of jokes in the background. 1:13:00.400 --> 1:13:02.000 All Right, it's streaming already. 1:13:02.240 --> 1:13:04.320 It comes out on Sunday, okay pm. 1:13:04.320 --> 1:13:06.920 All right, Sunday, nine pm. That's Mickey Down and Conrad Kay, 1:13:06.960 --> 1:13:09.840 the writers and co creators of the HBO series Industry. 1:13:10.200 --> 1:13:12.880 You're listening to Bloomberg business Week coming up. It turns 1:13:12.880 --> 1:13:15.880 out you can have a math mind without being a prodigy. 1:13:16.120 --> 1:13:19.200 We get into the simple path to loving math. That's next. 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:20.160 This is Bloomberg. 1:13:26.600 --> 1:13:30.479 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live 1:13:30.560 --> 1:13:33.920 each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and 1:13:33.920 --> 1:13:36.920 Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also 1:13:37.000 --> 1:13:40.519 listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 1:13:40.920 --> 1:13:43.639 Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:48.360 The math performance of US teenagers has sharply declined since 1:13:48.400 --> 1:13:51.400 twenty eighteen, with scores lower than twenty years ago and 1:13:51.439 --> 1:13:55.160 with American students continuing to trail global competitors. According to 1:13:55.160 --> 1:13:58.120 the results of a key international exam released this past Tuesday, 1:13:58.600 --> 1:14:01.959 in the first comparable global results since the coronavirus pandemic, 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:05.160 fifteen year olds in the United States scored below students 1:14:05.160 --> 1:14:09.599 in similar industrialized democracies like the United Kingdom, Australia and Germany, 1:14:09.880 --> 1:14:12.400 and well behind students in the highest performing countries such 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:15.639 as Singapore. South Korea and Estonia, and while the data 1:14:15.640 --> 1:14:18.320 seems to show a continuation in math under performance that 1:14:18.360 --> 1:14:21.080 predates the pandemic, our next guest says there is a 1:14:21.080 --> 1:14:24.439 way to change that. Shalini Sharma is the CEO and 1:14:24.439 --> 1:14:28.360 co founder of the nonprofit educational software organization Zern. Her 1:14:28.400 --> 1:14:31.960 new book Mathmind, The Simple Path to Loving Math, she 1:14:32.040 --> 1:14:34.760 joined Bloomberg's Matt Miller and Me starting with her own 1:14:34.800 --> 1:14:37.880 admission that she's not a math prodigy, but thanks to 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:40.960 a revelation in middle school, learned to love math. 1:14:41.479 --> 1:14:45.400 I was not a math prodigy, and I had a 1:14:45.400 --> 1:14:48.559 accidental and lucky experience in sixth grade that changed the 1:14:48.600 --> 1:14:52.559 trajectory of my life. My math teacher, mister Snyder, he 1:14:53.120 --> 1:14:55.320 just decided to believe in me when I didn't believe 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:57.840 in myself. What had happened is I was in a 1:14:57.840 --> 1:15:01.040 math class in sixth grade. It was Honors math. It's 1:15:01.080 --> 1:15:05.640 the first time I experienced that the boys were thriving 1:15:05.760 --> 1:15:08.320 and the girls were quiet in the back. There weren't 1:15:08.360 --> 1:15:10.799 actually very many girls in the class. There were more boys, 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:14.320 and I was just barely holding on. I remember there 1:15:14.360 --> 1:15:17.280 was a point where I took a test. Mister Snyder 1:15:17.280 --> 1:15:19.920 called me to his desk. My stomach dropped. I went 1:15:19.920 --> 1:15:22.040 over to his desk and I saw less red marking 1:15:22.080 --> 1:15:25.920 than usual, and he said to me, he said, you 1:15:25.960 --> 1:15:28.920 did better on this test, and if you try your best, 1:15:29.160 --> 1:15:31.360 you could be just as good as the boys. And 1:15:31.439 --> 1:15:33.320 I know in twenty twenty four that we don't think 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:35.280 that's a good thing to say to a little girl, 1:15:35.439 --> 1:15:38.240 but I will tell you that my heart exploded because 1:15:38.280 --> 1:15:40.840 it was the first time I considered that I didn't 1:15:40.880 --> 1:15:43.240 just have to survive, but that I could excel and 1:15:43.280 --> 1:15:46.400 I could be the best. And it started this powerful 1:15:46.479 --> 1:15:49.400 chain reaction. And I wasn't born one, but I made 1:15:49.479 --> 1:15:52.400 myself a math kid and I came to love math. 1:15:52.439 --> 1:15:53.840 And it's because of that moment. 1:15:55.360 --> 1:16:00.519 I had also some really great teachers that I'll never forget. 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:02.559 And I never thought I was that good at math. 1:16:02.600 --> 1:16:05.680 I was very dyslexic. I had a bad memory for 1:16:06.080 --> 1:16:09.200 you know, times tables in you know, first and second 1:16:09.240 --> 1:16:11.360 grade or whenever you do that. But I get to 1:16:11.400 --> 1:16:13.640 eighth grade and I get this algebra teacher at the 1:16:13.680 --> 1:16:19.000 Columbus Academy, Tim Hildreth, who just really made math seem 1:16:19.720 --> 1:16:24.200 more fun like an art or like music, or like 1:16:24.320 --> 1:16:27.000 it was creative as you write in your book, and 1:16:28.280 --> 1:16:30.200 he connected with me in a way that. 1:16:31.800 --> 1:16:32.320 Was cool. 1:16:34.120 --> 1:16:37.960 The problem I have is that I can always visualize 1:16:38.880 --> 1:16:43.240 the solution. I can feel how the problem should work out, 1:16:43.320 --> 1:16:46.800 and I can get a lot of the answers right. 1:16:47.160 --> 1:16:50.680 I'm not good at the formulaic showing your work, and 1:16:50.720 --> 1:16:53.240 I never have been, so I wonder if that's a 1:16:53.280 --> 1:16:55.880 common problem. 1:16:56.040 --> 1:17:00.160 Yeah, I mean so much in there. So think about reading. 1:17:00.280 --> 1:17:03.240 You know, if, for example, let's say we were all 1:17:03.280 --> 1:17:05.240 going to take a reading test, but none of us 1:17:05.280 --> 1:17:07.960 knew how to read. We didn't know that each letter 1:17:08.120 --> 1:17:09.920 represented a sound, and that you could put the sounds 1:17:09.960 --> 1:17:12.519 together and make bigger sounds like. We didn't know that, 1:17:13.200 --> 1:17:15.760 but you showed us. You showed me a bunch of symbols, 1:17:16.000 --> 1:17:18.160 and you said, when these symbols are together, that means 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:20.679 the word house. When these symbols are together, that means 1:17:20.720 --> 1:17:24.080 the word radio. And so there was a two hundred 1:17:24.160 --> 1:17:26.960 word test. I crammed it, I memorized all the words. 1:17:27.000 --> 1:17:29.599 I even got an A on the test. But because 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:32.920 of how every human brain works, every adult brain, every 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:36.200 kid brain, I would start to forget that and so 1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:38.120 two weeks later, even though I got an A on 1:17:38.160 --> 1:17:42.439 the test, I would forget how to read. And so 1:17:42.720 --> 1:17:46.639 think about how terrifying and insane reading would feel if 1:17:46.640 --> 1:17:48.559 we taught it that way. And so what you're talking 1:17:48.600 --> 1:17:50.640 about happened to you in your eighth grade class is 1:17:50.680 --> 1:17:55.599 that the symbols and the meaning came together. So what 1:17:55.680 --> 1:17:59.720 math really is is symbolic notation to describe the real 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:02.840 world around you. That's actually all it is. And so 1:18:02.880 --> 1:18:05.439 when you see pictures and visuals, then you get to 1:18:05.479 --> 1:18:09.879 connect that symbolic notation with reality and then it sinks 1:18:09.880 --> 1:18:12.400 into the brain and it becomes durable. And that's just 1:18:12.479 --> 1:18:15.799 the science of how our brains work. So if you're teaching, 1:18:16.000 --> 1:18:18.760 let's say a seventh grader about negative numbers, you can 1:18:18.760 --> 1:18:21.479 teach them all these rules of when you multiply on 1:18:21.560 --> 1:18:24.320 negative times a negative, it's positive, when you subtract and 1:18:24.400 --> 1:18:26.680 negative from a negative. You know, you can give them 1:18:26.680 --> 1:18:29.479 a table and they may cram it, but they're going 1:18:29.520 --> 1:18:32.559 to feel really stressed. But if you instead you say, okay, 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:36.280 think about negative numbers as you dive into the ocean, 1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:39.320 and you go deep into the ocean, and that's negative numbers. 1:18:39.640 --> 1:18:42.680 Get back up to sea level, that's zero, and then 1:18:42.720 --> 1:18:46.040 you climb a mountain. Those are positive numbers. Now let's 1:18:46.120 --> 1:18:48.360 lay that out in the number line. And so if 1:18:48.360 --> 1:18:51.639 we see the number negative five, that is the position 1:18:51.920 --> 1:18:55.559 of the number on the number line. Now start playing 1:18:55.600 --> 1:18:59.200 with the numbers. And that's what's often missing for kids, 1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:02.759 is that making sense. And the kids who love math, 1:19:03.160 --> 1:19:07.080 perhaps maybe Carol, they're doing that in their heads. Either 1:19:07.200 --> 1:19:09.759 adults showed it to them, they figured it out themselves. 1:19:09.800 --> 1:19:12.320 They read the textbook. However, they figured that out, but 1:19:12.360 --> 1:19:16.479 they put the symbols and the pictures together. And one 1:19:16.479 --> 1:19:18.080 of the main things we can do to help kids 1:19:18.120 --> 1:19:21.920 love math is always offer them those pictures proactively. 1:19:22.400 --> 1:19:22.559 You know. 1:19:22.600 --> 1:19:26.240 It's funny. One of our producers cci, She's like, I 1:19:26.280 --> 1:19:28.240 want to read this book, and she even said in 1:19:28.280 --> 1:19:30.599 the newsroom, I think I had a question here, but like, 1:19:30.840 --> 1:19:35.920 can you help adults enjoy math and have kind of 1:19:35.920 --> 1:19:38.320 a math mind? Having said that, you know, I grew 1:19:38.360 --> 1:19:40.680 up there's a lot of memorization and a lot of 1:19:40.760 --> 1:19:44.040 like doing problems and a lot of that, and I 1:19:44.040 --> 1:19:45.720 feel like the focus wasn't so much on how you 1:19:45.760 --> 1:19:47.639 got there, just get there and get the right answer. 1:19:48.080 --> 1:19:52.200 I mean, can an adult learn to love math and 1:19:52.240 --> 1:19:53.080 be better at math? 1:19:53.520 --> 1:19:57.000 Yeah, definitely, And I think I think we as adults 1:19:56.640 --> 1:19:59.559 all kind of have to, you know, for two reasons. 1:19:59.560 --> 1:20:04.240 One is, if we're parents or aunties and uncles of kids, 1:20:04.880 --> 1:20:07.880 if we love math, we will help them love math, 1:20:08.120 --> 1:20:10.920 and so so it's just it's kind of our duty 1:20:11.320 --> 1:20:14.519 to help kids. But the second is in the world 1:20:14.760 --> 1:20:19.040 that is, you know, kind of manifesting in front of us, 1:20:19.280 --> 1:20:22.960 the need for numeracy. Just it's just off the charts, 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.880 and you know, there's a lot of attention paid to literacy. 1:20:26.400 --> 1:20:28.799 But it just really pains me that there's this prevailing 1:20:28.880 --> 1:20:32.080 misconception that some kids are destined to be left behind 1:20:32.720 --> 1:20:35.880 and they can't do math, or some adults can't do math. 1:20:36.680 --> 1:20:39.160 And more and more we see that that means they 1:20:39.160 --> 1:20:43.720 can't participate, and that means even participate in like understanding 1:20:43.800 --> 1:20:45.880 your show. You know, you have such an interesting show, 1:20:45.920 --> 1:20:48.640 but you're using a lot of mathematical terms, and so 1:20:48.720 --> 1:20:51.840 we want people to be able to participate. But yes, 1:20:52.240 --> 1:20:55.080 I think there are four steps to building a math mind, 1:20:55.120 --> 1:20:56.639 and I think they pertain to anybody. 1:20:56.720 --> 1:20:58.120 It's like the race when you're at the you know, 1:20:58.160 --> 1:21:00.000 at the end of a dinner and you're like, okay, 1:21:00.120 --> 1:21:02.000 we're going to give them. You know, we're we're out 1:21:02.040 --> 1:21:03.639 to dinner with a bunch of friends, like fifteen twenty 1:21:03.680 --> 1:21:06.439 percent okay, Like everybody's like figuring it out, and it's like, 1:21:06.439 --> 1:21:07.960 who could do it so like fast. 1:21:08.080 --> 1:21:08.400 I don't know. 1:21:08.400 --> 1:21:10.120 When we were kids, it was fifteen to twenty percent. 1:21:10.200 --> 1:21:12.360 Now they want like twenty five thirty. 1:21:12.439 --> 1:21:13.200 It's a little different. 1:21:13.240 --> 1:21:14.639 You say that there are. 1:21:14.600 --> 1:21:20.360 Roadblocks for adults and for kids. What are the sort 1:21:20.400 --> 1:21:22.559 of hurdles that we need to overcome? What are the 1:21:22.600 --> 1:21:24.000 common issues? 1:21:24.920 --> 1:21:25.160 Yeah? 1:21:25.160 --> 1:21:28.360 I mean so the first is just believe. You open 1:21:28.400 --> 1:21:30.479 the show at the top by talking about the United 1:21:30.520 --> 1:21:34.639 States versus other countries. You know, shared some love for Estonia, 1:21:35.040 --> 1:21:39.599 and what's happening in those countries is and it might 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:43.160 seem so simple, but it's a big deal. Which is 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:47.280 in those countries people start with the belief that kids 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:50.160 can do math. So you know, the simple parallel I 1:21:50.160 --> 1:21:53.600 give is, imagine if we put all our kids in 1:21:53.640 --> 1:21:57.160 this country in kindergarten through eighth grade, and at the 1:21:57.240 --> 1:21:58.719 end they came out and we gave them a test, 1:21:58.760 --> 1:22:01.000 and we thought the test was really high quality. And 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:04.280 at the end of the test, the majority were illiterate. 1:22:04.360 --> 1:22:09.639 The majority couldn't read. We'd be scandalized. And what if 1:22:09.680 --> 1:22:13.080 even worse than that, a bunch of adults said, that's okay, 1:22:13.400 --> 1:22:16.080 they're not reading kids. You know, we get very mad 1:22:16.120 --> 1:22:19.439 at the adults, but that's the exact same thing we're 1:22:19.479 --> 1:22:20.240 doing in math. 1:22:20.439 --> 1:22:24.320 For talking with Shanny Sharma, she's CEO, co founder of 1:22:24.400 --> 1:22:28.040 zur and it's a nonprofit educational software organization. Her new book, 1:22:28.080 --> 1:22:31.080 which is what we're talking about, is entitled Mathmind, The 1:22:31.080 --> 1:22:32.679 Simple Path to Loving Math. 1:22:33.360 --> 1:22:35.320 And oh, by the way, can I just say one thing? 1:22:35.400 --> 1:22:36.160 You can say whatever? 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:39.280 Talking at the top about how the US obviously, you know, 1:22:39.439 --> 1:22:42.280 US kids in general aren't doing great at math compared 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:45.519 to the kids in Singapore. Yeah, and then you mentioned Estonia. Yeah, 1:22:45.600 --> 1:22:47.400 and I made a joke about how small. I want 1:22:47.439 --> 1:22:50.000 to point out that I do love Estonia. I went 1:22:50.000 --> 1:22:53.760 there for an ECB conference to talent. I stayed at 1:22:53.760 --> 1:22:59.439 the Hotel Telegraph, which was beautiful, is very nice. Would 1:23:00.400 --> 1:23:02.080 go back just to hang out. So I just want 1:23:02.240 --> 1:23:05.080 everyone from Estonia to know I do love you. 1:23:05.200 --> 1:23:07.120 Because we get hate mail, or math gets hate. 1:23:06.960 --> 1:23:08.679 Mail and school that they're great at math. 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:11.240 I want to go to chapter twelve. You say math 1:23:11.280 --> 1:23:13.280 matters for everyone, but we act as if it matters 1:23:13.320 --> 1:23:15.880 only for a select few. Our education system is built 1:23:15.880 --> 1:23:19.559 around both overt and quiet classifying of students what you 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:23.000 have referred to as sorting. We track classes. I grew 1:23:23.080 --> 1:23:24.920 up where it was like kids were in honors math, 1:23:25.040 --> 1:23:27.160 kids were in regular math casts, kids were in math 1:23:27.200 --> 1:23:29.280 that needed help, and it was like you were you 1:23:29.320 --> 1:23:31.760 were definitely I know, like I don't even want to 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:33.960 say it, and it really put you in a certain way. 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:36.800 And I hope my daughter's not listening. But she was 1:23:36.840 --> 1:23:40.080 in a point where she thought she wasn't good in 1:23:40.120 --> 1:23:43.960 math and got a tutor and she actually is really 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:46.680 great in math and loves it, and so it's just 1:23:46.960 --> 1:23:49.200 but she got it in her head that she wasn't great. 1:23:49.200 --> 1:23:51.280 I really hope she's not listening. She's not, she will 1:23:51.320 --> 1:23:53.920 hate me forever what we do in the US. What's 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:55.559 wrong with what we do in the US and how 1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:57.240 we teach math? Because there was something I saw on 1:23:57.320 --> 1:24:00.439 video where you talk about math war, something the US 1:24:00.439 --> 1:24:01.960 does but other countries don't. 1:24:02.680 --> 1:24:05.640 Yeah, so like your kid and millions like them or 1:24:05.640 --> 1:24:07.120 at the top of my mind when I was writing 1:24:07.120 --> 1:24:11.400 math mind. And we have a system, and it's it's 1:24:11.400 --> 1:24:14.240 a strange one where we actually spend billions of dollars 1:24:15.000 --> 1:24:18.719 educating millions of kids by sorting find the math kids, 1:24:18.840 --> 1:24:21.040 not just teach all kids math, which is what is 1:24:21.080 --> 1:24:24.240 happening in other countries. And kids aren't dumb, right, So 1:24:24.280 --> 1:24:26.200 you can say whatever you want put like, you know, 1:24:26.520 --> 1:24:29.960 nice things on posters, like you know, making mistakes is 1:24:30.040 --> 1:24:32.800 okay or whatever, but they know what's actually going on. 1:24:33.320 --> 1:24:36.080 And what's going on is that the way we teach 1:24:36.320 --> 1:24:39.680 in mathematics is it's a test to see if you 1:24:39.720 --> 1:24:43.080 have that rare genetic material to be able to do math, 1:24:43.400 --> 1:24:45.720 and every day you can fail the test. So, by 1:24:45.720 --> 1:24:48.120 the way, even kids who are in the honors class, 1:24:48.120 --> 1:24:51.280 they're not feeling really good either. Everyone is feeling uncomfortable. 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:54.920 Everyone is feeling like there's this scarce, rare genetic in 1:24:55.040 --> 1:24:57.479 more material, but it's completely not born out in science. 1:24:57.760 --> 1:25:01.280 Babies as young as two weeks old understand quantities. Pigeons 1:25:01.360 --> 1:25:03.680 can count, so con dolphins, and so we just have 1:25:03.760 --> 1:25:06.439 to relax because we can all do math. And what 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:08.880 I'd say, is that doesn't mean that kids who have 1:25:08.920 --> 1:25:12.040 a deep passion for mathematics shouldn't be able to accelerate ahead. 1:25:12.240 --> 1:25:14.840 If you have a deep passion for writing or journalism, 1:25:14.920 --> 1:25:17.439 you should be able to accelerate ahead. But that doesn't 1:25:17.479 --> 1:25:20.599 mean because you accelerate ahead that I shouldn't get to 1:25:20.600 --> 1:25:24.479 have really fun and challenging writing opportunities. And so we 1:25:24.560 --> 1:25:26.920 don't have to put those things in opposition, and we 1:25:27.040 --> 1:25:29.400 don't in other fields of knowledge, but we just do 1:25:29.479 --> 1:25:32.360 it in math. I would just say it's crazy and 1:25:32.800 --> 1:25:33.400 we could. 1:25:33.200 --> 1:25:33.880 Just all stop. 1:25:34.920 --> 1:25:38.519 I want to know what the system is that you developed, 1:25:38.600 --> 1:25:41.760 or that Zern developed. I read that you guys have 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:46.439 a system that one in four elementary school kids use, 1:25:46.760 --> 1:25:50.519 and I don't know like half middle schoolers use, which 1:25:50.520 --> 1:25:52.120 made me curious, like what is it? 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:54.240 What is it like a program? 1:25:54.360 --> 1:25:59.559 Do you have materials for teachers? Is it like you know, tricks? 1:25:59.600 --> 1:26:00.120 What is it? 1:26:01.240 --> 1:26:05.080 Yeah, so it's a million middle school kids, but the 1:26:06.320 --> 1:26:08.479 think about those so way I'd like to think about Zeren. 1:26:08.600 --> 1:26:12.720 There's a really famous mathematician who describes our problem in 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:15.400 middle school math in America, and he says, kids walk 1:26:15.439 --> 1:26:18.000 out of class every day, like ten to twenty minutes 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:20.439 behind in terms of confusion. Now we make that a 1:26:20.479 --> 1:26:23.360 big catastrophe, but that's all. They're just ten to twenty 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:26.080 minutes behind. And if we could support them in their 1:26:26.120 --> 1:26:29.599 homework or with just ten to twenty minutes of additional input, 1:26:29.840 --> 1:26:31.760 then they would get it. It would click, you know, 1:26:31.800 --> 1:26:34.360 you get that aha moment in your brain. And so 1:26:34.439 --> 1:26:37.760 think of zern as that digital compliment. It's the ten 1:26:37.840 --> 1:26:40.640 to twenty minutes every day for teachers or for families, 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:43.519 and unzerned dot org it's free for teachers or families, 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:47.559 and so we provide that ten to twenty minutes. I 1:26:47.560 --> 1:26:50.880 think some of the secret sauce of zern Is is 1:26:50.960 --> 1:26:56.360 the pictures, gifts, visualizations. You know, when we're teaching. So 1:26:56.680 --> 1:27:01.320 for example, when we're teaching a fraction bigger than one hole, 1:27:01.479 --> 1:27:06.080 so eight forts, like what does that even mean? On screen, 1:27:06.320 --> 1:27:10.040 the teacher will cut two oranges into forts and you 1:27:10.040 --> 1:27:13.639 can see, well, it's two oranges and they're cut into 1:27:13.680 --> 1:27:16.400 four pieces, so that there's eight pieces. And so it 1:27:16.520 --> 1:27:19.559 moves it from really abstract like no one really knows 1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:22.400 what a forts means in third grade, to being extremely 1:27:22.439 --> 1:27:26.080 concrete everybody understands two oranges cut into four pieces, and 1:27:26.160 --> 1:27:28.439 so that's how we're trying to support kids. 1:27:28.680 --> 1:27:31.800 Shelnye, I wonder AI artificial intelligence. Do you think that's 1:27:31.840 --> 1:27:33.120 going to be a good or bad thing for the 1:27:33.120 --> 1:27:33.599 world of math? 1:27:33.680 --> 1:27:33.760 Ya? 1:27:33.920 --> 1:27:35.639 Do we need math? We have iPhones and. 1:27:35.560 --> 1:27:38.080 We've talked with Sacon about a lot of this in 1:27:38.160 --> 1:27:39.280 terms of what he's doing. 1:27:39.360 --> 1:27:42.560 And I'm just gonna ask con Academy like a competitor 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:44.840 or I mean, you're not for profit, So what do 1:27:44.880 --> 1:27:45.559 you think about that? 1:27:47.240 --> 1:27:47.479 Yeah? 1:27:47.520 --> 1:27:49.360 I mean so I would say there's only two sites 1:27:49.400 --> 1:27:50.920 I let my I have thirteen year old twin boys, 1:27:51.000 --> 1:27:53.720 only two sites. I let my kids on con Academy 1:27:53.920 --> 1:27:57.680 and Zern. And I know Sal's kids have played with Zern, 1:27:57.760 --> 1:27:59.800 and I think it's really outstanding. And he does some 1:28:00.280 --> 1:28:04.080 things with visualizations and videos. And you know, we're both 1:28:04.120 --> 1:28:07.320 nonprofits just trying to put the best education we can 1:28:07.439 --> 1:28:11.080 up online for free for everyone. You know, I think 1:28:11.160 --> 1:28:14.040 that with regard to AI, I don't know. I have 1:28:14.120 --> 1:28:16.519 no ability, no expertise, and no ability to predict where 1:28:16.520 --> 1:28:19.080 the world will go. But I'll say this, which is 1:28:19.520 --> 1:28:22.560 it makes it seem like math is more important. And 1:28:23.439 --> 1:28:26.240 the reason for that is, like today, in today's world, 1:28:26.520 --> 1:28:30.240 the single biggest predictor of getting through high school, into college, 1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:33.439 graduating college, and then having a massive effect in the 1:28:33.439 --> 1:28:37.639 sum of millions of dollars on lifetime earnings is algebra completion. 1:28:38.040 --> 1:28:42.640 Just that algebra completion in your K twelve experience. And 1:28:42.680 --> 1:28:44.720 so if that's what's happening today in the world of 1:28:44.800 --> 1:28:47.840 jobs today, think about what happens in the future as 1:28:48.640 --> 1:28:51.680 numerous y and math skills become more and more expected 1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:54.160 and more and more part of every job. We already 1:28:54.200 --> 1:28:56.720 see stem jobs mixing together. We used to think stem 1:28:56.840 --> 1:28:59.280 jobs were you became an electrical engineer, you became a 1:28:59.320 --> 1:29:02.760 computer science not the case. Lots of folks who are 1:29:02.760 --> 1:29:06.320 majoring in history are actually out there doing STEM jobs. 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:09.880 This was really fun and I feel like any of us, well, 1:29:10.000 --> 1:29:14.240 I think you certainly much of adult you resonated with, 1:29:14.360 --> 1:29:16.080 and any of us who have kids. It definitely resident. 1:29:16.080 --> 1:29:18.040 Wait, we had twenty seconds left. Who did it better? 1:29:18.200 --> 1:29:21.320 Teaching math at the university level? Brown or Harvard. 1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:23.400 Brown? 1:29:24.520 --> 1:29:26.759 Ooh, well done, well done. 1:29:27.000 --> 1:29:29.799 That's Shalini Sharma, CEO and co founder of the nonprofit 1:29:29.920 --> 1:29:34.320 educational software organization Zern her new book Mathmind, The Simple 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:37.120 Path to Loving Math, Cracking the Numeracy Code for everyone 1:29:37.120 --> 1:29:39.559 who has ever thought they were bad at math. And 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:41.720 that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week 1:29:41.720 --> 1:29:44.320 from Bloomberg Radio. Thanks so much for joining us. 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And the latest edition 1:30:18.800 --> 1:30:22.400 of Bloomberg BusinessWeek Magazine is available on newstands now, at 1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:25.519 Bloomberg dot com and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. I'm 1:30:25.560 --> 1:30:28.439 Carol Masser. Have a good and safe weekend. Everyone, stay 1:30:28.479 --> 1:30:31.080 with us. Today's top stories and global business headlines are 1:30:31.080 --> 1:30:34.560 coming up right now.