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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and today we're gonna be talking about a

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Speaker 1: band that is probably more famous for the groups that

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Speaker 1: started after this band broke up. Like, Jordan, have you

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Speaker 1: heard of sun Volts? Yes? I have. Now, Steve, let

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Speaker 1: me ask you are you Are you familiar with Wilcome. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I believe I've heard of the band Will Go. As

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Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I believe that they're one of

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Speaker 1: the great American bands of all time. But we'll get

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Speaker 1: into that as we get into this episode. But before

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Speaker 1: sun Volts and Will Go, there was a band called

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tupelo. And Uncle Tupelo was a pioneering band of

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Speaker 1: a genre called alt country. And I just want to

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Speaker 1: Jordan that, as a resident and the native of the Midwest,

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Speaker 1: that old country means a lot to me. You know,

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Speaker 1: this is music about real Americans drinking in saloons and

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Speaker 1: losing their jobs, living in dead end small towns. It's

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Speaker 1: it's very uplifting music. Jordan's, Well, I'm from Boston. So

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Speaker 1: nurses welcome newborns by playing drop Kick Murphy's in Naustal,

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Speaker 1: So that's where I'm coming from. They pour a plane

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Speaker 1: of Sam adams into a baby bottle. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: when we get to uh, drop Kick Murphy's episode. That's

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Speaker 1: when I'll really shine. But I can't wait for now,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tupelow, What would drop Kick Murphy's rival be like Sobriety?

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Speaker 1: Is that their rivalry? I don't Was it like another

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Speaker 1: Irish rock band that is, you know, gonna intrude on

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Speaker 1: their turf? I mean the pots I don't even know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well we'll gonna say it's Sam Adams versus Michaelobaltra or something. Well,

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Speaker 1: we digress. We're not gonna be talking about drop Kick

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Speaker 1: Murphy's in in Sobriety or Irish rock bands today. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about a Tupelow and we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about the rivalry between Jeff Tweetie and Jay Ferrar,

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Speaker 1: which in a way has been put to bed. But

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Speaker 1: I feel like if you walk up to any like

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Speaker 1: middle aged midwestern man at a party and you asked

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Speaker 1: them about this, they will be able to talk for

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Speaker 1: two hours about it. I feel like this there's something

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Speaker 1: about these two guys and what they went through almost

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago that is still very intriguing to some

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Speaker 1: of us. I love how personal those feels for you.

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Speaker 1: This is really gonna be fun. I'm excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to you. It is it is. We're gonna get deep.

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Speaker 1: I think this is gonna this is gonna feel like

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Speaker 1: psychoanalysis for me. Well, alright, let's dive into this mess. Alright.

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Speaker 1: So Jeff and j they go way back. They are

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Speaker 1: born and raised in the small town of Belleville, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: kind of a dead on the vine farm town, if

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Speaker 1: you will. The industry has dried up. It's it's not

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Speaker 1: a happy place to be. Is that Is that a

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Speaker 1: fair thing to say? Yeah? I mean this is really

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Speaker 1: like the middle of nowhere, and I think especially at

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Speaker 1: this moment in time, I mean, we're decades away from

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Speaker 1: the Internet becoming a thing, and you know, there's not

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Speaker 1: a lot of culture. And it's interesting like how these

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Speaker 1: two guys ended up being drawn to each other because

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Speaker 1: they were really the only two people in their town

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Speaker 1: that were into punk rock. I think Jeff was into

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Speaker 1: the Ramons and and Jay was into into the sex pistols, right.

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Speaker 1: They meet in their high school English class was like

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Speaker 1: an icebreaker game at the beginning, and it comes out

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Speaker 1: that they're both there into punk and as anyone who

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Speaker 1: grew up in a small town like I did, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you did too, can tell you. When

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Speaker 1: you find someone, especially at that age, who's into the

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Speaker 1: same kind of niche music as you are, you you

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Speaker 1: cling to those people. I mean, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: overstate how much that person means to you. So I

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Speaker 1: think that that really forms the foundation of their relationship.

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Speaker 1: Is this this this kinship of punk rock? Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: and it's interesting, like if you look at the totality

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Speaker 1: of the relationship, because you feel like in a way,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot else maybe that would ultimately

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Speaker 1: bonded them, you know, because they see them like opposites

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. But like you said, I think,

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Speaker 1: especially at that moment in time, um where you couldn't

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Speaker 1: just go on Facebook or Twitter and connect with people

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Speaker 1: anywhere in the world over shared interests, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you found someone in your town that was into this

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Speaker 1: very specific sort of music, it was like finding like

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Speaker 1: a long lost cousin, and it seems like these two

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Speaker 1: guys gravitated to each other for that reason, and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of an unequal partnership or unequal friendship because

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Speaker 1: Jeff absolutely idolized Ja and looked up to him like

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Speaker 1: an older brother, even though he was only I think

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Speaker 1: eight months older, and he would later say he was

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Speaker 1: in all of him. Jay was playing in bands with

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Speaker 1: his with his older brother. He came from a very

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Speaker 1: musical family, and Jeff would later talk about going to

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Speaker 1: see them perform and just have his teenage mind totally

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Speaker 1: blown by watching Jay sing Gang of Four songs they

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Speaker 1: were playing, and he'd never seen a garage band performed before,

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Speaker 1: so this was huge for him. Yeah, And I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people, you know, have friends like

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Speaker 1: this at certain times in their lives where it's like

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Speaker 1: you have one friend who is clearly in the power

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Speaker 1: position and the other friend who's constantly trying to impress

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Speaker 1: that friend because they almost feel like they don't deserve

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Speaker 1: to be friends with this person. And you know, Jeff

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Speaker 1: Tweedy when he wrote his book which is called of

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Speaker 1: Course Let's Go so we can get back. Have you

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Speaker 1: read that book, by the way, Yeah, And I did

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Speaker 1: read it when it came out. It's uh, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like his songs, it's very warm, very intimate. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: he talks a lot about their early years. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: like one of the great memoirs that's come out in

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Speaker 1: recent years. And and he does talk about how in

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Speaker 1: the beginning he felt like he had to hide his

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm around Jay Ferrar because you know, Jeff, I think,

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Speaker 1: was more naturally effusive person, someone who's going to wear

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Speaker 1: his heart on his sleeve, whereas Jay, even at that time,

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Speaker 1: was very taciturn and wouldn't show his emotions and and

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Speaker 1: almost would look down on people that were like too

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Speaker 1: happy or or expressing themselves too much. And as you

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Speaker 1: go along and Uncle two below, it seems like that

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Speaker 1: dynamic never really changed and eventually it became a problem, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean I always got the idea that Jeff was

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Speaker 1: kind of almost a puppy figure. He created the tension

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Speaker 1: in a action and love and interaction and Jay I

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Speaker 1: just kind of got off. Was in his room with

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Speaker 1: a ball of bourbon, like you know, listening to Woody

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Speaker 1: Guthrie and a twelve string acoustic or something, or an

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Speaker 1: old National guitar or something. I don't know. The very

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Speaker 1: very different people. As you said earlier, music really seems

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Speaker 1: to be the only thing that's botting them together at

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Speaker 1: this this point. So they start playing in a band together.

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Speaker 1: First was called the Plebs. I believe Plebs, pleaves. I

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Speaker 1: think it might be Please Please, and and then they

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Speaker 1: kind of morph into a rockabilly band called the Primitives,

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Speaker 1: which rockabilly is not the first thing that comes to

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Speaker 1: mind when I when I think of forming sort of

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Speaker 1: a great American band, right, Yeah, And I feel like

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Speaker 1: that came more from j I think Jeff was ultimately

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Speaker 1: the one that was like encouraged, happy to be there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But I think Jeff was like saying, Okay, we need

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Speaker 1: to somehow combine this roots music that we're playing in

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Speaker 1: the Primitives with something more contemporary, like the punk rock

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Speaker 1: that's happening right now. And you mentioned, you know, getting

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Speaker 1: a four. You know, obviously the Minute Men were big

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Speaker 1: with these guys, as with the replacements in Hohosker Do,

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Speaker 1: and when Uncle Tupelo starts to take shape in the

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Speaker 1: late eighties, you can hear those influences starting to come together,

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Speaker 1: you know, the punk rock and the more sort of

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Speaker 1: country roots music. Yeah, and a lot of the early lyrics.

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Speaker 1: It's funny their styles developed early on, and there's really

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Speaker 1: sort of two key songs the point to first for Jay,

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Speaker 1: and Jay really emerges in Uncle Tupola early on as

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Speaker 1: the most fully formed artist of the two. He's really

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Speaker 1: out of the gate, incredibly strong, and he writes a song,

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Speaker 1: one of his first songs called I Got Drunk, and

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Speaker 1: he sounds like the world's youngest old man, his world

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Speaker 1: weary at twenty years old. He's singing in this cracked,

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Speaker 1: ravaged voice at twenty. I grabbed me a fifth, poured

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Speaker 1: me a shot. I thought about all the things that

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Speaker 1: I haven't got, which is incredible from from a twenty

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Speaker 1: year old. I mean, he's clearly an old soul, and

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Speaker 1: there's his songs definitely have weight, and depending on your

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Speaker 1: point of view, it either comes across us as gravitas

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Speaker 1: or it just comes across as like heavy and modeling.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm sort of in the middle, depends

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Speaker 1: on the song. But I incredibly gifted lyricists. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that it doesn't automatically sound contrived

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Speaker 1: says a lot about how strong of a personality j

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Speaker 1: Farr was at this time, because as you said, he

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Speaker 1: was just like this twenty year old kid and he's

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Speaker 1: singing songs about, you know, being like a lifelong alcoholic

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Speaker 1: who's like working in factories for twenty years, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you look and I always think of like the track

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Speaker 1: loost thing on the first Uncle Uncle Tubulo record from

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Speaker 1: called No Depression, And there's like songs called Graveyard Shift

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Speaker 1: and Factory Belt and Whiskey Bottle, and there's even a

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Speaker 1: song called Flatness, you know, which I think just kind

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Speaker 1: of speaks to the desolation that was existing, especially in

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Speaker 1: Jay Ferrar's songs. But what really put those songs across

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Speaker 1: I think at that time was his voice. He had

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Speaker 1: I think the greatest voice in the history of all country, uh.

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Speaker 1: And defining all country pretty narrowly as the music from

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Speaker 1: like the late eighties to the early two thousand's, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm not getting like Grand Parsons and all the precursors.

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Speaker 1: To me, that's something different, but like what all country

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Speaker 1: was in that sort of decade or so span for

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Speaker 1: our to me, like just the sound of his voice

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Speaker 1: singing a song like Moonshiner, which ended up on the

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Speaker 1: third Uncle Tupelo record, the March six record. Um and Moonshiner,

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Speaker 1: of course, is this old folk song that's been performed

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Speaker 1: by Bob Dylan and the Clancy Brothers, Davon Ronk, all

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Speaker 1: of these legends, and yet to me the way for

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Speaker 1: our sings it. He has the definitive version of that song,

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Speaker 1: and he it's like this sort of baritone, very rich.

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Speaker 1: I remember Jeff Tweety describing it as like an Old

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Speaker 1: Testament sounding voice. Uh. And it's a voice that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of other singers tried to effect and

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Speaker 1: they couldn't pull it off. It just sounded corny. It

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Speaker 1: sounded like someone trying to sound like they were from

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Speaker 1: the South. They're trying to sound like they had this

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Speaker 1: tremendous wisdom or gravitas. And Ferrar had that naturally at

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Speaker 1: that age, and it really defined Uncle Tupelo in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways. Like I always think of Uncle Tupelo

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Speaker 1: as being like a grittier version of the Replacements, Like

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Speaker 1: the Replacements being this band that was I think a

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Speaker 1: party band that had darkness on the edges. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'd have a song like here Comes a Regular, which

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Speaker 1: was about you know, drinking yourself to death in a

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Speaker 1: small town bar. And that's pretty much all of Uncle

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Speaker 1: Tupelo's first album exactly. It's like We're gonna do here

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Speaker 1: comes a regular all the time, and that comes mainly

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Speaker 1: from Ferrar because Jeff Tweedy's songwriting style is much different, right,

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Speaker 1: Jeff said, Well, think about Jay and as you said,

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Speaker 1: his his voice is as great as strength, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that he's able to sing these kind of songs

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Speaker 1: at age twenty and have them not sound contrived is

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Speaker 1: just a testament to how great a singer he is.

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Speaker 1: There is something to me that always felt that it

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Speaker 1: did seem a little almost like a facade. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know he grew up in this environment that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, economically depressed and not a lot going on,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know it. I know he worked at

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Speaker 1: his mother's bookshop, and I always kind of got the

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Speaker 1: impression that he was reading like a ton of Steinbeck

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Speaker 1: novels and stuff like that, and it felt more like

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Speaker 1: literature as opposed to something that was more intimate and

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Speaker 1: from his soul, which is where Jeff Tweety comes from.

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Speaker 1: And I always thought that his lyrics, he's not afraid

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Speaker 1: to wear his heart on his sleeve in his songs,

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Speaker 1: and one of Jeff Tweety's crucial early songs a song

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Speaker 1: called screen Door, which is this optimistic little folk song

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Speaker 1: that he sings in this his voice at that time

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Speaker 1: is probably the polar opposite of Jay's. Right. It's this

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Speaker 1: really sort of thin, ready poppy. It's got a decent

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Speaker 1: pop quality to it, I think, would you say, but

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Speaker 1: very different. Yeah, there's a line in screen Door where

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Speaker 1: Jeff Tweety says, down here where we're at, everyone is

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Speaker 1: equally poor, and there's something about the way he sings

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Speaker 1: that it sounds a little awkward in the song. I

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Speaker 1: was kind of laugh at it when I hear it,

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Speaker 1: just because like, if you were actually in a you know,

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Speaker 1: lower middle class situation, you probably wouldn't describe everyone as

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Speaker 1: being equally poor, you know. I feel like you would say,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're all. I feel like, when you're actually

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Speaker 1: poor and you're surrounded by other poor people, you don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily notice how poor you are. You know, there's no

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Speaker 1: context for there's no way to compare it, you know,

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Speaker 1: So to write it that way it always seems kind

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Speaker 1: of weird. But you know, you're talking about you feel

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Speaker 1: like Jay Ferrar was maybe a little contrived. I feel

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Speaker 1: like for this kind of music, he was perfectly suited

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Speaker 1: for what this genre demanded, and it demanded a voice

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Speaker 1: like that, and it demanded that sort of songwriting perspective,

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Speaker 1: Whereas I think when Jeff Tweety was writing in this style,

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Speaker 1: he wasn't a strict all country artist, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I think for him it was maybe more of a

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Speaker 1: contrivance than it was for Ferrar. And ultimately, you look

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Speaker 1: at the totality of his career, the limitations that you

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Speaker 1: hear in a song like screen Door ultimately end up

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Speaker 1: being strengths because I think as he moves into Wilco,

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Speaker 1: Tweety proves to be a much more malleable artist, someone

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Speaker 1: who can evolve much easier because he's not as fixed

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Speaker 1: into into certain thematic qualities or sonic qualities the way

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Speaker 1: that ferraris. But we're getting a little ahead of ourselves

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Speaker 1: with that. It's that's some foreshadowing for later in the episode.

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Speaker 1: It's just fascinating to me that you can hear both

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Speaker 1: of these guys who they are and where they're going

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Speaker 1: to be going this early in their career. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: what they write about to mean ja much like how

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Speaker 1: he is in person, and his lyrics is not very

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Speaker 1: open with this feeling. So he speaks through these characters

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Speaker 1: and these archetypes that represent Middle America. It's sort of

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Speaker 1: like continuation of Nixon's silent majority, and it's sort of

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Speaker 1: foreshadows Trump's America in a lot of ways, whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to call it. These people that are struggling factory workers, unemployed,

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Speaker 1: desperate people propping up the bar because of the only

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Speaker 1: place that go to forever leaf um. And whereas Jeff

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Speaker 1: kind of coming he writes about what he knows, which

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Speaker 1: is himself, he doesn't really tackle a lot of like

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Speaker 1: social issues are populist issues in his songs right, and

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Speaker 1: I think too, there's a dynamic here that reminds me

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Speaker 1: a little bit of like what existed in Who's Crew Do,

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Speaker 1: where you could say that like Jay Farrar was like

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Speaker 1: the Bob Mould type of figure who you know, Bob

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Speaker 1: Mould was much more intense and you know, he was

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Speaker 1: the guy that was screaming, especially on the earlier records

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Speaker 1: and very cathartic type music, whereas Grant Heart was the

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Speaker 1: guy who would write these beautiful pop songs and set

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Speaker 1: them to buzz saw guitars. But he was like the

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Speaker 1: sweet to the spice or the vinegar that that Mold

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Speaker 1: would bring. And as Uncle Tupola evolved and there was

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Speaker 1: more songwriting parody in the band, it seemed like they

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Speaker 1: might have started to achieve that sort of balance. Um,

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Speaker 1: but of course the band ended up falling apart before that.

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Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that Mold and grand Heart also

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Speaker 1: ended up hating each other by the end of their band,

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Speaker 1: and we'll probably end up talking about that at some point.

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Speaker 1: I'd imagine in this show two for two for the

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Speaker 1: Midwest sweet and sour songwriting duos. Yeah, well, that's the

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Speaker 1: way we are in the Midwest. We we hold our

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Speaker 1: feelings in for like, you know, six seven, eight years,

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Speaker 1: and then we end up screaming at each other and

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Speaker 1: ruining our friends, our relationships forever. You can see it,

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tupelow. You can see it in Who's Krew Do?

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Speaker 1: And yeah, when we do the Who's Crew Do episode,

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Speaker 1: it'll be fun to explore that again. Oh yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna take a quick break to get a word from

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Speaker 1: our sponsor before we get two more rivals. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: go through the problems that are kind of emerging in

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Speaker 1: a two below. As they released the first album No Depression,

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Speaker 1: which really kind of a misnomal title should be Yes,

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Speaker 1: probably some depression there, excessive depression. So they're moving on.

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Speaker 1: Really the primary problem is the group progresses, is Jeff

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Speaker 1: coming into his own creatively? Yeah, the second album still

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Speaker 1: Feel Gone where that's really what the competition truly begins.

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Speaker 1: I think you have Jeff songs like black Eye Nothing

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Speaker 1: Dee Boone, which are a huge leap forward. But I

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Speaker 1: think Gun is really the moment when he comes out

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Speaker 1: as a songwriter, that that's the first time he wrote

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Speaker 1: something I think was equal to Ferrar, wouldn't you say? Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: And and it's interesting that that's one of the only

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Speaker 1: Uncle Tupelo songs that Tweety will still play with. Wilco

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Speaker 1: doesn't play Gun very often, but you know, he's not

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Speaker 1: playing anything really off of No Depression, And that seems

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Speaker 1: to be an acknowledgment that Gun was the beginning of

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Speaker 1: him starting to discover his own style. And to reiterate

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Speaker 1: what we were saying before, you know, Gun, it's not

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Speaker 1: a song about gun control. It's not a song about

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Speaker 1: getting drunk and shooting your your foreman at the factory,

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Speaker 1: you know, like as you would expect from like a

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Speaker 1: j fer our song that it was called Gun. You know,

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Speaker 1: Gun is a song about falling in love and feeling

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Speaker 1: like you're about to explode, you know, like like a gun.

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Speaker 1: You know that it's a romantic song and it's an

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Speaker 1: expression of romantic intensity, and that is the zone where

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Speaker 1: Jeff Tweety lives. And in a way, it's not typical

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Speaker 1: of the types of things that Uncle Tupola were doing

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Speaker 1: at that time. It's much more personal, much more expressive,

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Speaker 1: much more poppy, much more poppy. It's catchy song, and

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Speaker 1: it's just not the kind of song that you would

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Speaker 1: expect someone like Jay Farrard, who was very self contained,

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Speaker 1: would write. Which is why I probably really pissed Jay

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Speaker 1: off when not only was it the lead track on

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Speaker 1: the album, but it was the lead single for the

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Speaker 1: album too. And it must have been like when the

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Speaker 1: Beatles chose something as a side. I mean, it must

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Speaker 1: have been a total shock for him to think, Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, like this is this guy was such a

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Speaker 1: junior partner for me for so long. Now has the

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Speaker 1: lead single and the lead track on the album. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and and it's going to be the beginning of things

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Speaker 1: like that happening. Uncle Tupola will not be the last

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Speaker 1: time that a Jeff Tweetie song is pushed to the

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Speaker 1: forefront at the expense of j Ferrar And the thing

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Speaker 1: comes up again and again. They really they aren't communicating,

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Speaker 1: they aren't expressing their feelings. There's a great story where

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Speaker 1: Jeff and Jay and the drummer Mike Hydro and are

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Speaker 1: all living sort of monkeys style in this apartment, uninsulated

355
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Speaker 1: apartment in Belleville, And I think it was Mike said

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Speaker 1: later on that if if Jay wanted to tell the

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Speaker 1: band to learn a song to cover for their set,

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't actually tell them. He would just play a

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Speaker 1: song on their on the stereo system over and over

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Speaker 1: and over again and just point the speakers like towards

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Speaker 1: their bedroom and kind of like hope they got the hint,

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Speaker 1: which totally normal, totally normal way to communicate, by the way,

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Speaker 1: which again also a very Midwestern trick to do, by

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Speaker 1: the way, sort of like a you know, passive aggressive

365
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Speaker 1: like you should know what I want type move um

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Speaker 1: and very common. I feel like I have parents in

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Speaker 1: my life that have done this sort of thing, And

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Speaker 1: like I said, this, this might be psychotherapy for me.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to delve too deep into that,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like it's a very common attribute of

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Speaker 1: many Midwesterners. Um. But along with the noncommunication, you also

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Speaker 1: have drinking problems, especially for for Jeff tweety which I

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Speaker 1: feel like was in a way of manifestation of the

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Speaker 1: communication or non communication now is happening in the band

375
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Speaker 1: because Tweetie essentially felt the burden of being the spokesman

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Speaker 1: of the band because they would be in interview situations

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Speaker 1: and Jay Farr wouldn't communicate, so Jeff Tweetye would often

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Speaker 1: barge in answer all the questions, and then when they

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Speaker 1: would be at shows, he would be the social one

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Speaker 1: talking to fans after the gigs, and often that meant

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Speaker 1: drinking with fans and drinking too much. And uh. At

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Speaker 1: some point, Tweete realizes that this is something that's going

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Speaker 1: to be destructive for him because he has a history

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Speaker 1: of alcoholism and his family there's a strong history of

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Speaker 1: acoholism throughout the Midwest. Again, this is a very strong regional,

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00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: uh you know problem. Um, So he's feeling like this

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00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:12,520
Speaker 1: is something he needs to stop. Although of course Jeff

388
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,680
Speaker 1: will later on have other addiction issues that that crop

389
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Speaker 1: up once he gets into Wilco. But yeah, it's fascinating how,

390
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, all these things start to come together and

391
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Speaker 1: how Ferrars reacting to it, because Ferrars basically looking at

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Speaker 1: Tweetie like you're a raging egomaniac, you know, like your barge.

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00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,000
Speaker 1: You know, he's probably looking at Tweetie during these interview situations,

394
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Speaker 1: always speaking up and then it shows, you know, always

395
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,959
Speaker 1: sort of taking the lead and engaging with fans and tweeting.

396
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Speaker 1: In his mind is probably thinking like I need to

397
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Speaker 1: do this because Jay won't do it. But in Jay's mind,

398
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Speaker 1: I mean, he's looking at Jeff like, who does this

399
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,080
Speaker 1: guy think he is? Like he thinks he's like Steven

400
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: Tyler or something. I mean, right, I mean it seems

401
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 1: to be like like a serious crack that's starting to form,

402
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 1: like over that sort of thing. Yeah, I mean they

403
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: both feel that they're in the right and doing what

404
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 1: they have to do and for and for Jeff, I

405
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: think it's worth noting that it's probably not easy for Ammy.

406
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Speaker 1: He has a kid. When when Jay first met him.

407
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,239
Speaker 1: He was incredibly shy and kind of one of those

408
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 1: only speaks when spoken to types. So it's probably a

409
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,480
Speaker 1: lot of things that fed that. A big reason that

410
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 1: fed into his drinking too, is that he probably needed

411
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Speaker 1: the courage to put himself out there because he, as

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Speaker 1: he said, he felt like Jay wasn't going to you know,

413
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Speaker 1: I was just thinking. There's a story from Greg Cott's book,

414
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 1: Greg Caught by the Way. He wrote a great book

415
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,280
Speaker 1: about Wilco called Learning How to Die, which is also

416
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 1: a great history of Uncle Tupelo. There's a bunch of

417
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: Uncle Tupolo stuff in there, and there's a story in

418
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Speaker 1: there that Jeff Tweete tells about how like around this

419
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:43,000
Speaker 1: time they'd be performing and you know, Jay wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: anything in the microphone, so Jeff would engage with the audience.

421
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Speaker 1: And to this day, Jeff Tweety is one of the

422
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: great banter people at shows, Like he has great banter games.

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Speaker 1: He's like a stand up he's incredible, he's so he's

424
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Speaker 1: the stand up comedian. He's he's hilarious. But he would

425
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: talk between songs and like Jay Fur would pull him

426
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 1: aside on stage and say, you know, don't you ever

427
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: fucking talk into that microphone ever again, getting really piste

428
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 1: off about him basically being a frontman. Instead of saying,

429
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to talk to the audience.

430
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: Someone should talk to the audience, and I'm glad that

431
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,160
Speaker 1: Jeff is doing it, instead of saying that he felt

432
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: threatened essentially by Jeff doing this and frankly annoyed, you know,

433
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: And it seems like Jay felt that no one should

434
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 1: be talking to the audience. Everyone should be as you know, uncommunic,

435
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: as he was. And so that basically leads up to

436
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: the fourth and final Uncle Tupolo record, which is Anna

437
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: Dyne that comes in out and really this record is

438
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: like a mess. I mean, the record itself is great,

439
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 1: but everything behind, like the story behind the album and

440
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: like what happened afterward, it just sounds like it was

441
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: a miserable time to be an Uncle Tupelo. I always

442
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: felt like this was their rumors, their Fleetwood Mac rumors,

443
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: like they can't actually talk to each other, they're like

444
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: in person, so they just like take it out on

445
00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 1: each other in their songs and they're like that's the

446
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: way they get points across. I mean, if you just

447
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,440
Speaker 1: totally so many of the different tracks. I mean, ferrar

448
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 1: Slate addresses all because Anna Dyne is their first major

449
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: label release on Sire, and he's not really comfortable with

450
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 1: with going on a major and he talks about he

451
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: sings about um working in the halls of Shame, which

452
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: is what I always thought that was about, and which

453
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 1: and then um, I can never say this Chickamauga check

454
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: Chickamauga one of the worst bloodiest battles of the Civil War.

455
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 1: It sounds to me like he's addressing Tweetie saying the

456
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,959
Speaker 1: time is right for getting out while we still can.

457
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: Solitude is where I'm bound. And I have to say, like,

458
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: I interviewed J ferrar Uh in seventeen and I asked

459
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,440
Speaker 1: him about that song specifically, and I and I said,

460
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 1: you know, it's been speculated among fans that you were

461
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 1: writing about the impending breakup of Uncle Tupelo in this song.

462
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: And I have to say that Ferrar was much more

463
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: you know, I going in this interview than I expected.

464
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 1: Like it was a really good interview, and I really

465
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 1: enjoyed his insight because you know, we were I was

466
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: asking him about songs from throughout his career. He went, Mum,

467
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: on Chickamauga, he would not engage. You hit a nerve.

468
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: I hit a nerve. So I ended up not even

469
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: putting it in my story because he gave like a

470
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: pretty non response response to what I said, so, which

471
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 1: to me confirms that it is about that. And come on,

472
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: it is about that because it seems pretty clear when

473
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: you listen to the song. But then like Tweety has

474
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: his own songs where he seems to be talking about

475
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: fer our right on that record right I was. The

476
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 1: long cut was kind of you know what, we've been

477
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: in a deep rut and it's been killing me, but

478
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: we'll get there eventually. He always thought was something that

479
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,440
Speaker 1: he's directing a j and no sense in love and

480
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: you might think that I don't care, but I do,

481
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,680
Speaker 1: which is pretty tender. Exactly. It's just him that it's

482
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 1: like they're back in high school again, trying to talk

483
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 1: about punk bands. It's like, I just want to tell

484
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: you that I love you J and you won't let me.

485
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: You know, this is my fan fiction for Jeff tweet

486
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: Jake for if I've gone over this. I got over

487
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: many scenarios over this in my mind. But yeah, I

488
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 1: feel like, you know from j It seems like you

489
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: have these almost defiant expressions of disgust over where Uncle

490
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: Tupelo is at this moment and his expressing his desire

491
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: to to exit the situation, and with tweeting, it's almost

492
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: expressions of more hurt or confusion, like a white flag,

493
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 1: which which which again seems to be how it actually

494
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 1: played out with these guys behind the scenes, right. I mean,

495
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: this is the album where I think it's almost I

496
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: think it's about in terms of who wrote each song.

497
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: I think it's also the first album where they take

498
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 1: individual song credits because before that, right, weren't they credited

499
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: just Uncle Tupelo. And this is the first time when

500
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: they actually split it up. Yeah, although I wonder I

501
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: think maybe in retrospect those albums are now I think

502
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: they're credited to like the specific writers. I was looking

503
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 1: at the liner notes online and stuff. But yeah, I

504
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: think there was an idea that they were more part

505
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: Nurse before Anna Dine and then Anna Dyne made it

506
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: pretty clear that you know that there were j songs

507
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: and they were Jeff songs, and you know, circling back

508
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: to what we were saying before, you know, Gun ends

509
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: up being a single off of Steel Field Gone, and

510
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: then in the early part of four, Uncle Tupelo makes

511
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 1: their first appearance on national television, which, by the way,

512
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: I think this should illustrate that as legendaries Uncle Tupolo

513
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: is now, they were not a popular band in their

514
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: in their day. I mean, this is like their fourth

515
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: album and they're finally getting on a major network show,

516
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, like it took them a long time, and

517
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: it's Conan O'Brian. Yeah, it's not The Tonight Show, it's

518
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 1: not Letterman. You know it's on It's on Conan. But

519
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: this on the end of playing is the long cut,

520
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: the Jeff Tweedie song, really great poppy, fun rock song.

521
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: And when you watch the show, and you can watch

522
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: it on YouTube, you know, ja far are just staring

523
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: at his feet. I've never seen someone more miserable on

524
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: National tell which you know, it's it's hard to say, like, okay,

525
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: it's like Jay Farrar. He's not the most joyous stage presence,

526
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: even like in the best of times, so you know,

527
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 1: you almost don't want to read too much into it.

528
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: But at the same time, he seems extra sellen in

529
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: this clip, and I'm sure that he was not happy,

530
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: and of course we're going to talk about this, Like,

531
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: I mean, he was already on the band essentially at

532
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: that point, because he had quit in early, right, he

533
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: quit over Christmas, which I'm sure made him real popular

534
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: in the Uncle Pepelow I just picture like right, So,

535
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: so Jay calls. He doesn't even call Jeff. He calls

536
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: the band's manager, Tony Margherita, right before Christmas, and Tony

537
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: relays the message to Jeff, who is hurt and furious

538
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: that Jay didn't talk to him first, I mean, which

539
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: is just like, you know, he's known this guy since

540
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: high school and he doesn't even give him the courtesy

541
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: of quitting telling him first, So that leads to a

542
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: show down. Yeah, and this scene, it's like Uncle Tupelo.

543
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: They're not famous enough to get their own biopic, but

544
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: like I almost I feel like this scene justifies them

545
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 1: getting their own biopic. It's like, oh my god, I

546
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: don't I can't even act it out. I think I'll

547
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: burst into tears. I think you should just recount it dispassionately.

548
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: But it's it's intense. This is like marriage story. You know,

549
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: this should be like Scar Joe and Adam Driver acting

550
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: at this scene. You know, like like the like the

551
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: like the two dude heterosexual version of that, like, you know,

552
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 1: just screaming at each other in an apartment, like yeah,

553
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: you need to say this. I can't even recount this

554
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: because my my chin will start quivering. I think so.

555
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: So they're in the apartment that they've shared for years.

556
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: This is little, tiny apartment. Uh. Tweetie goes up to

557
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Jay and says, tell me, to my face, why do

558
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: you hate me? And I can just imagine he takes

559
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: a deep maybe takes a drag off a cigarette, looks

560
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: off to the side, looks back at him, and says,

561
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: you don't know what it's like to stand on stage

562
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 1: with somebody every night who loves themselves as much as

563
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: you do. And Tweetie, you know, there's nothing to say

564
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: to this. He just says, you know, you're right, I

565
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: don't have any idea, just brutal. And which kills me

566
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: about this story is that I feel like Jeff Tweety,

567
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, admired j Ferrar. You know, as we've said,

568
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: I think he looked up to him for a long time,

569
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: and they did have that dynamic in the relationship where

570
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, Tweetie was the one in the position of

571
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: having to please Ferrar. You know, Ferrar is like the

572
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: cold father, you know, the father who does never gives

573
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: any affection, and like tweeting, is trying to get affection

574
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 1: and to have that person in your life say basically

575
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: that you know, I hate you, you know, and I

576
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: don't want anything to do with you just must have

577
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: been devastay. Think there's another aspect of this story too,

578
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,239
Speaker 1: where in Greg Coott's book he says that for our

579
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 1: called Tweety a mama's boy. Down here here, I'll call

580
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: you a mama's boy. It's just that bad. That's like

581
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: salt and the wounds, pretty emasculating and will go. Fans

582
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: of course, will recognize that. In the song Misunderstood from

583
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: Being There, there's a line in there where Tweety refers

584
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: to himself as a mama's boy, and he said that

585
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: that was a reference to what j Ferrar said during

586
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 1: this argument. Um, I think it's interesting that in Tweety's book,

587
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: his own book, he doesn't make reference to the mama's

588
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: boy comment. He talks about this confrontation and you know,

589
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: recounts everything else almost word for word from the Greg

590
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: cock book. But he doesn't say the mama's boy thing.

591
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: And I wonder, and this is me totally so, you know, psychoanalyzing,

592
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: but like I've interviewed Jeff Tweetie, and I interviewed him, um,

593
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: you know, around the time that his that his mom died,

594
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: and he talked about how close he was to his mother,

595
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: and I just wonder, like if that dig just went

596
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: over the line, Like it's one thing to say like

597
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 1: you're Prima Donna on stage, but to go there that

598
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: is like that that's a real sign of malice at

599
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: that point. And it's probably something that I would imagine

600
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: the chief ship cuts deep. Yeah, it's a cheap shot

601
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: that like you don't really get over. Uh So, so

602
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: even if he wanted to keep the band going, if

603
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: you hear your partners say stuff like that, you're probably like, Okay,

604
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: we're done, you know, I think it's time to move on. Yeah,

605
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: And so this is sort of the state of mind.

606
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: This happened. This happens in early and they they agree

607
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: to do one more tour, mostly out of loyalty to

608
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: their manager who sunk in all of his all of

609
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: his money into the band, and they feel like they

610
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: own this and so the tour goes on in spring

611
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: of nine, and it takes two weeks for the wheels

612
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: that totally come off. There they Jeff and j brawl

613
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: in a park a lot of a North Carolina club

614
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 1: after Jay refused to sing harmonies on Cheff's songs. Probably

615
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: wasn't much of a brawl, to be honest, Yeah, I mean,

616
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: it's probably was spit and you know, maybe some slaps.

617
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it probably wasn't like roadhouse or

618
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: anything like that. But but they had to be pulled

619
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: apart by their tour manager and they had a big

620
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: band meeting the next day, and the tour manager basically

621
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: as for our you know, what's what's your problem for?

622
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: I said, I don't have a problem with anyone here

623
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: but with you, and he points at Tweetie and at

624
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 1: that moment, and this sounds like a Neil Simon play

625
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: or something, that moment there, sound man couldn't handle the tension.

626
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 1: He passes out and hits his head on the coffee table,

627
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: which I'm with the sound man. I'm about to pass

628
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: out just hearing about this thirty years later. I mean,

629
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: what pulls my mind about these stories is that, like

630
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: the hatred seems to be one sided. Um that you

631
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: don't really hear Tweety talking about having the reciprocated feelings

632
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: of hostility towards Ferrar. If anything, he's feeling sort of

633
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: amused by how far as acting at this at this time.

634
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: And although you know, as we talked about this stuff now,

635
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean, Tweeties talked a lot more about this time

636
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 1: than Ferrar has. I mean, we're getting more of his

637
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: perspective than we are from Ferrar. So maybe it's the

638
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: in fairness to Jay, maybe there's some sort of askewed

639
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: perspective on this, right, I mean, Jeff's version is kind

640
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: of an accepted as fact from being a Greg Cotts book.

641
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: And as you said that the many many, many many

642
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 1: more interviews that he's done than Jay. But in two

643
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: thousand five, j does give an interview to Anthony de

644
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: Curtis in In Relics, and he said that it was

645
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: more than just musical differences. He claims that a few

646
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: years before their breakup, Jeff was drunk in the backseat

647
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: of the Uncle Tupelo van and he started coming on

648
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: to Jay's girlfriend, stroking her hair and basically confessing drunkenly

649
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: confessing to two feelings of love for her and UH.

650
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: To him, this was the ultimate betrayal, and according to

651
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: the interview, he quit the band for a couple of

652
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: weeks before ultimately coming back. I for one, believe that

653
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: that could be something that you know, you don't want

654
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: to completely blow up this band that you put so

655
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: much into that actually seems to be going somewhere. I

656
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: think it might have been right around when they got

657
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: Peter Buck to produce their third album. Probably wanted to

658
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: do his best to kind of stifle any kind of

659
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: interpersonal drama. But I don't think you come back from that.

660
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: I think that that could have really been the start

661
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 1: of the of the schism, even with all the songwriting

662
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: disparity and and ego that went on there. I wouldn't

663
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: blame him at least. Yeah, I mean my my feelings

664
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: about this story because I've heard this story. And there's

665
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,000
Speaker 1: also a part of the story where Jay says that

666
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 1: Jeff called him a pussy for like a couple of

667
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: weeks afterward, which I have a hard time believing that

668
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 1: part of the story, and that part totally wrong. I

669
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: don't know Jeff Tweedy personally, and I've interviewed him several times,

670
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: but I can't say I know him at all all

671
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: as a guy. He's not someone that strikes me as

672
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 1: someone who would call somewhat a pussy like repeatedly. I

673
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: don't know, it just seems strange to me. I mean,

674
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: I do see the other part of the story. Does

675
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,320
Speaker 1: seem like that could have happened. I do think that

676
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: a story like that takes on more weight if you

677
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: are already inclined to look at your bandmate as an

678
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: egomaniac or as a glory hog, which seems to have

679
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 1: been how Jay Farrar looked at Jeff Tweety as this

680
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: guy that was who wanted to be a rock star,

681
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 1: and that was very antithetical to how Jay fer Our

682
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: conducted himself. So if he saw or he heard about

683
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: his bandmate hitting on his girlfriend in a drunken way,

684
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, like basically, and you know, maybe Jeff Tweety

685
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: was was fooling around, you know, goofing off, but crossing

686
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 1: a line regardless, you know, I think if you were

687
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: cool with someone like that, you'd be pissed about your

688
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: friend doing that, but you would get over it. But

689
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: if you already look at your friend or your supposed

690
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: friend as being this, you know, arrogant, egomaniac guy. That

691
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: just adds fuel to the fire and it just reinforces

692
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: what you already believe about him. So that's how I'm

693
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 1: inclined to view that story. If if that's j f

694
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: ours sort of origin story for their split, I do

695
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: think that overall, like Jeff Tweeties argument that for our

696
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: felt threatened by Tweeties artistic ascendants, and that Tweety was

697
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: essentially not taking over the band but taking over the band.

698
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: I mean that that just makes more sense to me

699
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: because Uncle Tupola ultimately was j far Oar's band. I mean,

700
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: he was the dominant person for the majority of that

701
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: band's history. And to feel like this is my band,

702
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: but now I'm going to be in a situation where

703
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: I only get like half the songs on the record.

704
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: That seems like eventually you're just gonna say, screw this,

705
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna form my own band, And that seems

706
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: to have been when that happened in the situation. Yeah,

707
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the girlfriend think probably didn't help,

708
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: but I think it was probably those two together probably

709
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: paying in my opinion, a more full picture probably how

710
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 1: it really went down at Yeah, I mean Jay resented

711
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: him for a whole laundry list of reasons. All right, hey,

712
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: and we'll be right back with more rivals. We get

713
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: a situation now where they break up at the end

714
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: of that tour necking eighty four and tweety forms will

715
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,720
Speaker 1: go immediately like days after with the like the leftover

716
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: remnants of Uncle tupelow and um. I interviewed Tweety about this,

717
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: uh Ineen. We talked about the first two Willco records,

718
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: and he talked about how and he's very upfront about this.

719
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: He said, like, when he was working on the first

720
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: Wilco record, which was AM, he felt a pressure to

721
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: keep the momentum from Anodyne going because Anodyne was the

722
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 1: highest profile Uncle Tupelo record up until that point, and

723
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 1: he felt a pressure two continue servicing that audience, you know,

724
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 1: like he didn't want those people to go away, and

725
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 1: that definitely influenced the speed at which he made AM.

726
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: And of course the content of AM, which for all

727
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 1: intents of purposes, is the fifth Uncle Tupolo record. I mean,

728
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: it sounds like Uncle Tupelo without j fur Our, wouldn't

729
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: you say, I mean, I feel like that's a pretty

730
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: straightforward reading of that record. Yeah, I mean it feels

731
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: almost like an impression of Uncle Tupelo. And also, I mean,

732
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: not only is he competing with his own pass with

733
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: Uncle Tuplo, and he's like it or not the j

734
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: f Our forms some vault and he's recording his own

735
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: album there on the same parent label with the same producer,

736
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 1: and they're being released not that along apart. Comparisons are inevitable,

737
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: so I'm sure he feels pressure on all sides to too,

738
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: not only measure up to his own pass, measure up

739
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: to whatever Ja is gonna do. And what Jay does

740
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 1: is great. Trace is incredible. Yeah, it's great. And it's

741
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: funny to talk about this now because you know, Wilco

742
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: obviously has this great reputation, They have a great catalog.

743
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: We all no, Willco a lot more than people know

744
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: Sun Volt. I mean, sun Volt is more of a

745
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: cult act now, but in you know, Jay Farrar was

746
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: the better regarded one out of the two, and Sun

747
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: Volt was the band that people looked at as the

748
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: next great American band, like this was going to be

749
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: the great band to come out of Uncle Tupelow. And

750
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 1: that was even true within the record company, like uh

751
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 1: Tweeties told the story about how someone from from the

752
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 1: label told him that Am the Wilco record, which came

753
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: out I believe in March of was essentially setting the

754
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: table for Trace the sun Bowl record, which came out,

755
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: you know a few months later. I think it came

756
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: out like in the summer or fall of of which

757
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: that's something you really want to hear from your record

758
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: company that you are merely setting up. You're an appetizer,

759
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: right exactly, And you're the appetizer for your rival, right,

760
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: who we respect more as an artist than we expect

761
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 1: him to be more successful than you, And we put

762
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: him on Warner Brothers. And you get on this off

763
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: shoot Raprise label, which has you know, kind of the

764
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 1: more ald people like Van Dyke Parks and Randy Newman

765
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: and Neil Young. I mean kind of kind of more

766
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: of the the the the weirder, riskier people, if I may,

767
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: people who I love, Yeah, yeah, like more of the

768
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: niche ye, yeah exactly. But yeah, you're going to be

769
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:47,319
Speaker 1: more of like the niche band and you know also

770
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: the guy right yeah, which is kind of funny because really,

771
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: I mean, you would think that Ferrar would have may

772
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 1: be preferred to be on the smaller subsidiary than the

773
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 1: main label, you know, because that does seem more his

774
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: speed and more of his outlook. Like when people compare

775
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 1: the trajectories of Willco and Sunvolt. You know, I actually

776
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: don't think that Ferrar would have wanted will Goes trajectory.

777
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: I think that he was happy with the path that's

778
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 1: unvolved ultimately took because he didn't really want to be famous.

779
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 1: He didn't want to be hugely successful. I think he

780
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 1: just wanted to do his own thing, whereas Tweety was

781
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 1: always more ambitious and you know, wanted to engage the

782
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: public and wanted to have hits. Um and really at

783
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:32,320
Speaker 1: that time, I mean the tweety was looked at it

784
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: like this lightweight pop guy basically, whereas Ferrar was like

785
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: the serious, you know, furrowed browed, you know, heavy artist,

786
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: and and that's how those records were perceived, like when

787
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 1: they came out in Yeah. I mean, I again, I

788
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: like Trace far better than Am. I think that's not

789
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: an uncommon opinion. Um Am has some moments. I like

790
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 1: box follow letters because it sounds like a bird song,

791
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: Passenger sides, a great song Cassino queen Um. But yeah,

792
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: it did not sell or get anywhere near the same

793
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: kind of reviews as as Trace did. Yeah, I mean

794
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: Traces like maybe the greatest old country record ever made,

795
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, again defining our country as that decade of time, say,

796
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: from like the first Uncle Tupelo record in to like

797
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: Heartbreaker by Ryan Adams, if you want to call it

798
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 1: the old Country era, I think Sunfold, Trace, along with

799
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: those Uncle Tupelo records, those are like the great records

800
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: of all country. You know. Put those in a vault,

801
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: and I think of like the first track from Trace, Windfall,

802
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: you know, let the Wind Take your troubles away, you know,

803
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: beautiful song. Jay Farrar's voice sounds incredible. That was his peak,

804
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: I think in terms of his critical esteem is popularity

805
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: and really like artistic peak. Just an incredible song, and

806
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: it just sets up that record beautifully. And then you

807
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: have a record like a m which I think has

808
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: suffered in comparison to the other Wilco records. You know,

809
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: I feel like people tend to downgrade it because it's

810
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: not as good as being There or Summer Teeth or

811
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: a Yankee Hotel Foxtrot, and it's much simpler than those records.

812
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: It's not, you know, as experimental, it's not inventing anything.

813
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: It's basically reiterating what Uncle Tupolo did. But the defense

814
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: I'd make of AM is that I don't think Jeff

815
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 1: Tweedy wrote great songs and Uncle Tupolo, like, there's not

816
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 1: a song from his time in Uncle Tupelo that's as

817
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: good as Passenger Side is or Box full of Letters

818
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: or shouldn't be ashamed like he was at that time

819
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: exponentially getting better, I think with each album as a songwriter,

820
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 1: and AM ultimately ended up setting up better records afterward,

821
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: which maybe makes it seem a little weaker in retrospect,

822
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: and it also seems weaker in comparison to the sun

823
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: Bolt record, But on its own I think it's still

824
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: pretty good. So I'm going to defend AM, and I

825
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: am a total Jeff Tweety apologist too. I have to

826
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 1: say that right now, so I know he's your guy.

827
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to like with Wilco as we dig

828
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: into Wilco, because you and I were talking about this

829
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: as we were outlining this episode. Because I feel like

830
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: if you talk about his relationship with j Ferrar, which

831
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: is so fraught and fascinating, there's also the subplot of

832
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: his relationship with Jay Bennett and Wilco, which is almost

833
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 1: like a weird mirror version of what happened to Uncle Tupelo,

834
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: but now with Jeff tweety in the power position, right.

835
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: I mean, initially, some of his early Weoco bandmates talk

836
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: about Jeff pitching the band to him as a true collective,

837
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: and it became clear very early on that this was

838
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: going to be Jeff's band. It was his name on

839
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 1: the contract, it was I think John Stroutt said that

840
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: he went with Wilco because he thought he'd be able

841
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 1: to get more songs on the record as opposed to Jay,

842
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 1: because j robbe better songs. And then he got one

843
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: song on I Am I Think um so and no

844
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 1: songs afterwards. I think that's like, I think that's the

845
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: only John Starrett's song on any Wilco rerecord. I think

846
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: I think you're right, and I I love Jay Bennett.

847
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 1: I love the I think the albums that they did together,

848
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 1: that he did with Wolco are my favorite Willco albums.

849
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: Some of my favorite albums ever Jay Benn. I mean,

850
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: how would you describe him? I always kind of picture

851
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: him as like David Foster Wallace with dreads instead of

852
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 1: a bandanna do rag like disassembling a melotron. Like he's

853
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: this mathematician, mad genius, musical maximalist, could play any instrument,

854
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 1: had sort of intuitive understanding of recording studio and all

855
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: the technology. I just picture him as this like musical scientists.

856
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: Is that sort of a fair assessment, Yeah, I I

857
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 1: always thought it was a shame that like Philip symour

858
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: Hoffman didn't play Jay Bennett in a movie, like if

859
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: they had done like a like like a fictional adaptation

860
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 1: of I Am Trying to Break Your Heart, like Philip

861
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: simour Hoffman would have been perfect as Jay Bennett. And

862
00:45:58,160 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: to me, j Bennett is like one of the great

863
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 1: sidemen in recent music history. You know, he added so

864
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: much to the sound of Wilco Records, and he could

865
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: play so many different instruments so beautifully, and you know,

866
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,799
Speaker 1: he ended up co writing a lot of songs which

867
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: have tweety around this time, and it just seemed like

868
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:24,439
Speaker 1: he was a great facilitator of tweeties ideas he could

869
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: take them to another place he had. Yes, I'm really

870
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: beautiful embroidery. Beautiful embroidery. And I think, like if you

871
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: listen to his solo records, like he has a record

872
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: called The Palace at four Am, I love that album,

873
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: which I really like it too, but I like it

874
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: more as sort of it's a view into what he

875
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: contributed to Wilco. I think, because the production on that

876
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,760
Speaker 1: record is beautiful, the instrumentation on that record is beautiful,

877
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,919
Speaker 1: and the songs are just okay to me, Like it's

878
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 1: what Wilco would sound like if you didn't have someone

879
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: like Tweety at the center writing these great songs. And

880
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: I think when they were together, you know, they made

881
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,879
Speaker 1: these great records. But when they separated, Tweeting could still

882
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,399
Speaker 1: make great records on his own, and Bennett, I don't

883
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: think could do that as easily. Now. I know that

884
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 1: there's Wilco super fans out there whose heads are probably

885
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: exploding right now because there are a lot of Jay

886
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: Bennett loyalists out there, and this is an ongoing argument

887
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:23,360
Speaker 1: in Wilco fan circles about whether the band went downhill

888
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 1: after Ja Bennett was fired. There's also all the things

889
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:29,719
Speaker 1: there's many reasons why Jay Bennett was ultimately fired. It

890
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: seems like, you know, there's the power struggle aspect that

891
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: was going on between him and Tweety, where I think

892
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,240
Speaker 1: Bennett felt that he had more importance in the bandit

893
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,880
Speaker 1: he than he actually did. And you see that in

894
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 1: Sam Jones documentary to I think he even says Jeff

895
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: was threatened by me. It's clear by the attention I

896
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 1: was starting again. And he's telling Sam Jones in the

897
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: I'm Trying to Make Your Heart documentary. Yeah, I mean

898
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: it's definitely he viewed it as as a duo and

899
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: not as a band. He sort of songs I was

900
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: like the Prince region of Wilco. Yeah, And there's the

901
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: line in there where he says that Tweetie supposedly told

902
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: him that a circle can only have one center and

903
00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't gonna be j Bennett. It's interesting when you

904
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: read Jeff Tweety's book because Tweety writes about how he

905
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: felt that Jay Bennett was essentially posturing for the cameras

906
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: for that documentary and making himself look more important in

907
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: the band than he actually was, which is kind of

908
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: a weird thing to say. I mean, there's a little

909
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: bit of weirdness with that, just because Jay Bennett can't

910
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 1: defend himself obviously at this point. He died sadly in

911
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 1: two thousand nine. But I think ultimately the big thing

912
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 1: that I take from Tweety when he writes about their

913
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: relationship and why I fell apart, is that Tweetie and

914
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: Bennett were essentially drug buddies, and they would do a

915
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: lot of self destructive things together, and from Tweet's point

916
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 1: of view, he felt like he had to get Bennett

917
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: out of the band or else it would kill him.

918
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: And of course Tweete ended up going into rehab a

919
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,439
Speaker 1: few years after that whole thing went down, and then

920
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 1: and then of course Jay Bennett had his own sort

921
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: of sad slide into addiction that turned out really sad

922
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 1: and had a tragic end in two thousand nine. Right.

923
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: I think he ended up suing Jeff towards the end

924
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: of his life for unpaid royalties so we could, I think,

925
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 1: afford hip replacement surgery that his health insurance wouldn't cover.

926
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: I mean, his story is is one of the truly sad,

927
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: ye heartbreaking. It's awful, super talented guy. I mean it's

928
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 1: so horrible what happened to him, and that it couldn't

929
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 1: that they couldn't keep it together. But getting back to

930
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: the Jay Ferrar parallel to this, you know, and this

931
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: is a somewhat reductive thing, but it does seem like

932
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: that was almost like a drug adult version of what

933
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: happened in Uncle tupelow. Only now you know, Tweetie was

934
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 1: the one who had to decide you have to expel somebody.

935
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 1: You know that that I'm the one who has to

936
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: break away, Yeah, because Jay Ferrar had to do that.

937
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: And when I was when I als, I was interesting

938
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 1: too about the j Ferrar Jeff Tweete break up and

939
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: Uncle Tupe lows that. I think Jay Ferrar ultimately did

940
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: Tweety a favor by doing that. Oh yeah, you know,

941
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: because in a way you would think that Tweeting would

942
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: be the one to want to get out of the

943
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: band because he was the one who was ascending, He

944
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: was writing more songs and he was going to be

945
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,560
Speaker 1: stifled in that band if he stayed in there. You know,

946
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: maybe he was just he was just used to a

947
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: dynamic and Uncle Tupelo where he was going to be

948
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,840
Speaker 1: deferential to Ferrara, and he just couldn't leave the band.

949
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: So it was up to ferrar to say that this

950
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 1: band is over, and he left. That's where I think

951
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: that that the the Bennett for our thing is a

952
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: little different because I feel like Jeff didn't have the

953
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,839
Speaker 1: the blatant show of ego that Jay did, at least

954
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: before Sam Jones cameras in the documentary of sort of

955
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: like making it apparent that he was an important creative

956
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:51,919
Speaker 1: force in this group. I feel like maybe I'm wrong,

957
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 1: but I feel like Jeff was sort of more almost

958
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 1: like puppy, like, hey, I wrote this song like let's

959
00:50:56,960 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 1: let's do it, and it seemed less um manipulative or

960
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: or less not malicious, but less you go driven and

961
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 1: more more of a just born of a desire to

962
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: to share and contribute. I mean, what do you think

963
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: about that? Is that just a really reductive way of

964
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: putting that. I don't know, Man, I feel like we

965
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 1: gotta do a Jeff tweetye j Bennett episode. Man, don't

966
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: have to do sequel to this because there's so much

967
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 1: I feel like this is a tangent that I could

968
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: talk about for another two hours. That between those guys

969
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 1: it's crazy. So maybe we should just table that for

970
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 1: now and go back to Jeff and Jay. You know,

971
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: there is something with Jeff Tweedie and Jay's though. It's like,

972
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: if your name is Jay, You're never going to be

973
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: an advant with Jeff Tweedie. Again, I feel like you

974
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: can be the greatest guitar player or the greatest keyboard player.

975
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,959
Speaker 1: He's never going to have another J in his band

976
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 1: and you are blacklisted. Don't don't Jay's need not apply.

977
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: That name is cursed. So okay, getting back to the

978
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 1: Jeff Tweety j fur Our rivalry. You know, if you're

979
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 1: going to make a pro case for j fur Our, like,

980
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: what would be basis of that? I mean, so much

981
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: of it I think is his personal taste. I like

982
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: his lyrics better overall. I like sort of his his

983
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: more literate, sort of the small town existentialism grade dry shift.

984
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: I think it's an amazing song. Whiskey Bottle. I think

985
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: is maybe I have to sit down and look, but

986
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: maybe my favorite song either of them have written. I

987
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: should check that. I should really sit down and think

988
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: about that before I put that out there. But yeah,

989
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:29,640
Speaker 1: I think he's incredible lyricist and even though sometimes it

990
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 1: feels contrived or like a facade to me, I I

991
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: really do appreciate that, especially at his age too. He

992
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: makes these songs that sound a hundred years old, like

993
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: songs that Robbie Robertson would have written or something. I mean,

994
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: he's an incredible gift for for making something of substance. Yeah.

995
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: My my argument for Ferrar would be that in terms

996
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: of Uncle tupelow he is without question the dominant creative force.

997
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: He was the best songwriter in that band at that time.

998
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,959
Speaker 1: He was the best singer in that band at that time,

999
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: and he had the most charisma at that time. I'm

1000
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: qualifying everything specific Uncle Tupelo, but it's true that, um,

1001
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: you know whatever, if you love Uncle Tupelo, and and

1002
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: I really love Uncle Tupelo, most of what is great

1003
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: about that band comes from Jay Farrar. You know, he'd

1004
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,719
Speaker 1: defined that band's aesthetic. You know, they're thematic concerns, um.

1005
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: And he was just coming up with the best material

1006
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 1: at that time. And and I said this earlier, and

1007
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: I really think it's true that in terms of all

1008
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:32,399
Speaker 1: country music, Jay Farrar is the greatest artist to come

1009
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: out of there. I think he made the best records,

1010
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: and he wrote the greatest songs. And and I'm excluding

1011
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 1: Jeff Tweety from that because I think ultimately Tweety was

1012
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: not an all country artist. No, that wasn't what he was. No,

1013
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: he started an all country band, but I don't think

1014
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,800
Speaker 1: he was of that music. I think he used it

1015
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: as a vehicle to get his foot in the door,

1016
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: and then once he got into Wilco, he just went

1017
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: in a totally different direction. And he's written songs that

1018
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 1: are country ish or folky, you know, in in some

1019
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: of their spare parts. But I think overall he's he

1020
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: doesn't come from there in the same way that I

1021
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,279
Speaker 1: think Jay Ferrar does and the way that he still does.

1022
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked about Trace being a great record.

1023
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: I'll defend the entire sun Volt catalog. I think that

1024
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: they've made a lot of great records, uh, you know,

1025
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 1: in the nineties and up through today. I think it's

1026
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: a much narrower sonic and thematic palette that you than

1027
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: you get from Wilco. He's definitely more consistent than Wilco.

1028
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: I think that it's just like you said, it's more

1029
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: one note and it's a great note, But I think

1030
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: that I admire Wolco's sort of musical adventures more than

1031
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: his sort of purest streak. And I know I don't

1032
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: think he started up to be a purist, but I

1033
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 1: think that's sort of what he became. Yeah, I mean,

1034
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: I just feel like for our had the blessing or

1035
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,760
Speaker 1: the curse to be fully formed on that first Uncle's

1036
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 1: Buel record, and I think he I think he's become um.

1037
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,920
Speaker 1: I think he's refined his skills over the years. But

1038
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 1: essentially he knew who he was at the beginning, and

1039
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:12,160
Speaker 1: Tweety didn't. You know. It took several years for Tweeting

1040
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:14,359
Speaker 1: to figure that out, and in a way, you could

1041
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: say that tweet is still figuring that out. He's an

1042
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 1: artist who doesn't allow himself as much to be fixed

1043
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: in one place in the same way that Ferrar does,

1044
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: which is infuriating but also incredible to be a part

1045
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: of that journey too. I mean, you never really know

1046
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: what's coming with that which he's I mean, it's like

1047
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 1: Neil Young putting out trans or something. It's like what

1048
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: doing I see a lot of Neil Young and and

1049
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: Jeff uh In just there stubborn refusal to really be

1050
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: pegged down, and I think that that's probably the thing

1051
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: I admire about him most. Yeah, we've we've kind of

1052
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: bled into the pro Jeff Tweety argument already, the pro

1053
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: jeft Tweete argument as hijacked the pro Jay Farr argument.

1054
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea of him being a more adventurous

1055
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 1: artist ultimately having a more varied and eclectic and I

1056
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: think overall at her catalog over the past twenty five years,

1057
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,479
Speaker 1: and you know, I can't be impartial here, Like, Jeff

1058
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 1: Tweedy is one of my heroes, not just because I

1059
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: think he's a great songwriter, but I just admire how

1060
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: he's conducted himself in his career, being someone from the

1061
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,680
Speaker 1: middle of the country who stayed, you know, in Illinois,

1062
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,360
Speaker 1: who's always done his own thing. You know, will Go

1063
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: as a band that is an island in the music business.

1064
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: They always just make Will Go records, and they're not

1065
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: affected by outside trends or like what is going on

1066
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: in the rest of the world, at least not in

1067
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: the sense of trying to cater to it or you know,

1068
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: to like trend hop the way a lot of bands do.

1069
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: He does what he does and it's really great. You know,

1070
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: he always writes great he puts he writes great songs,

1071
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: puts up great records, and he conducts his career I

1072
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: think in a really admirable way. And I've always admired that,

1073
00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: and it's something that I aspired to my own life

1074
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: and my own career. So I think you got this, David. Yeah,

1075
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: I'm about to sing the Wind beneath my Wings. I

1076
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 1: think I was about to do. I appreciate you stopping me.

1077
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: Oh no, I mean like I think you. I think

1078
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 1: you reached Jeff tweety level of of you know, skills

1079
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 1: and adventure, adventurous spirit. And I mean, for me, Wilco

1080
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: was my entry point to to Jeff and Jay's music.

1081
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 1: I just a ghost was born. Came out when I

1082
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:25,600
Speaker 1: was in high school and um, and so I really

1083
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 1: didn't know much about Uncle Tupelo. For many years, I

1084
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: knew Wilco, and honestly, the news that he came out

1085
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: of an old country band was kind of shocking to

1086
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: me when I first learned that. Later on, you couldn't

1087
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: really find me. The Uncle Tupelo CDs in out you know,

1088
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: kind of out in the sticks where I grew up

1089
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: and I think that almost speaks more to how impressed

1090
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: I am that he ventured so far beyond that realm

1091
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: is just so incredible, see how far he's come. I

1092
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: also really admire, and I kind of alluded to to

1093
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: this earlier in the episode, how he's really not afraid

1094
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: to to wear his heart on his sleeve and his

1095
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 1: songs I think a lot more so than than jay Um.

1096
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,360
Speaker 1: He does have this desire for intimacy and he shows

1097
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: you his really ugly sides and shameful thoughts. I mean,

1098
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: I think of the songs like via Chicago and and

1099
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,320
Speaker 1: She's a jar uh I almost saying like you do

1100
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:17,400
Speaker 1: you love me? Now? Do you love me still? Will

1101
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: you stay? If I change my sound? Will you still stay?

1102
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's something really um again not to

1103
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: get two psycho analytical that that I like that that

1104
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 1: kind of trust with fans, and that kind of vulnerability

1105
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: I I always have admired with with him and all

1106
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 1: my favorite artists I think have that in common, Brangleson

1107
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 1: being Um being another one. Yeah. I think that vulnerability

1108
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: is why people like me end up rattling on for

1109
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: minutes on end On podcast about how jeffries our hero,

1110
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 1: and we want to be like him because we feel

1111
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 1: like we know him or we feel connected to him

1112
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: in some sort of way, which I'm sure would be

1113
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: very disturbing to him if he heard this show. Um,

1114
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: bringing these two guys together, because we always like to

1115
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: end on a note of reconciliation. I feel like these

1116
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: two guys have in a way reconciled, at least behind

1117
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: the scenes. Like there was an interview that Jay Ferrard

1118
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: did in Seen where he said that him and Jeff

1119
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: were emailing each other. Um. I think the spark of

1120
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:18,000
Speaker 1: that was that there was maybe going to be like

1121
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 1: an Uncle Tupelo archival release, which as of now has

1122
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: not seen the light of day. I don't know if

1123
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: that's still under discussion or not. But the idea was

1124
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 1: basically that, you know, there's been enough water under the

1125
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: bridge with us, and we've you know, we've lived our

1126
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: own lives. There's been a lot of things that have happened.

1127
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: We don't really need to hold a grudge over, you know,

1128
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 1: whether you hit on my girl friend in two or

1129
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 1: whether you know you called me a mama's boy, and

1130
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 1: then you know, shortly after that, you know, we can

1131
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 1: get over that uh, which warms my heart. Actually, I

1132
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen this, but there's a great

1133
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: clip on YouTube of Jeff Tweety telling a story at

1134
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: a show, and I think it was like in the

1135
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 1: late odds of the beach thing, Yeah, beach then like

1136
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: where he was he went on vacation in Mexico and

1137
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: he was like I think like he was like walking

1138
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: down the beach and there was someone in the distance

1139
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: and he realized that it was Jay Farrar And apparently

1140
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: they had both rented like houses on the same beach

1141
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: and there was one house between them, and apparently the

1142
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: guy renting that house was an uncle Tupelo fan. Like random,

1143
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 1: How random can you be? And how awesome would that be?

1144
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: By the way, Like, if you have, yeah, j Ferrar

1145
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 1: and Jeff Tweedy on either side of you were either

1146
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: awesome or I mean, if they were fighting, that could

1147
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: have been the worst vacation was life too, It's like, oh,

1148
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: it seems like it seems like they were pretty good.

1149
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 1: They gave each other like a bro nod, I think,

1150
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, like like hey man, what's up, you know,

1151
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: and they didn't jam together though you know, they weren't playing. Uh, Satan,

1152
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 1: your kingdom must come down by the campfire or anything

1153
01:00:56,240 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: like that, which is a shame. I mean, you know,

1154
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 1: I think basically they both couldn't have stayed in the

1155
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: same band. You know, they were destined to break up

1156
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: and form their own bands. And I think, really, as

1157
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: I said before, I feel like each guy got the

1158
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: band that they wanted. Yeah, I mean, the comparison almost

1159
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: seems like unfair. It's like you're comparing yourself to like

1160
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 1: your high school girlfriend or boyfriend, and there really just

1161
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 1: becomes a point when you think, you know, we were

1162
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,600
Speaker 1: thrown together at the time by proximity and mutual interests,

1163
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: and then the world got bigger, we found out who

1164
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 1: we are and what we really wanted and what we

1165
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 1: wanted to do and where we wanted to go, and

1166
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: we went there, and you know what, no hard feelings.

1167
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 1: I always got the impression that might be kind of reductive.

1168
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,800
Speaker 1: But Jay stayed true to his roots and Jeff stayed

1169
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: true to his muse, and both of those are admirable

1170
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:45,880
Speaker 1: things to do. And I think it's safe to say

1171
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: that because they're both happy where they are, that there

1172
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: is a snowballs chance in hell of Uncle Tupela reunion.

1173
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:55,439
Speaker 1: I don't think that they will ever play together again,

1174
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: but you know, I have no inside knowledge of that.

1175
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: But it's just I feel like Ferrar would probably be

1176
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: more open to it than Tweetie would be. Really like

1177
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: I could see I I really think that Ferrar would

1178
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: probably be more open to it than tweet Ee. But

1179
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: I feel like Tweeties at is at a moment like

1180
01:02:13,640 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: where he's so used to having his own kingdom and

1181
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 1: willco do you really go into a situation like where

1182
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: you're like a co leader with a guy that you

1183
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: went to high school with, you know, I I just

1184
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: don't see that being something he'd want to do. Oh

1185
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: I see Jeff thinking that it would be great. I

1186
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: could see Jeff thinking it would be great, and then

1187
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: it's like five minutes and you would be like, oh

1188
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,360
Speaker 1: hell no, oh no, this is and immediately regretting it.

1189
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 1: That's where I fall on And I could see j

1190
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: dragon his feet. But when he finally agrees, Jeff being like,

1191
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: oh cool, and then two songs into the rehearsal being

1192
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: like all right, Nope, this is done. I mean, I

1193
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 1: think the best case scenario is that, like they do

1194
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: a reunion show at like a supper club in Belleville,

1195
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 1: like and there's and there's like fifteen people there, you know,

1196
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: and they're all like friends and family, and someone ends

1197
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: up shooting like a really grainy, you know, iPhone video

1198
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: of it, and that's the only reunion that they do.

1199
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,600
Speaker 1: I could see that scenario happening, and that seems like

1200
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,600
Speaker 1: the best case scenario, just like a one off, just

1201
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: having fun type of union. So hopefully that will happen.

1202
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm just putting that out in the universe, that scenario.

1203
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: I think that's a good wish. That's a good wish.

1204
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 1: I'd like to see that, and that would be happy.

1205
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: It would be It would be a good way to

1206
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: bring an end to this old country blood feud that

1207
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: I've had so much fun talking about. I feel like, again,

1208
01:03:31,080 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: this this means a lot to me, this this feud,

1209
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 1: and I could talk about it forever, but we must

1210
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: put an end to this episode at some point, and

1211
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: hopefully we'll come back for the other Jay exactly coming

1212
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 1: for you. J Bennett Stephen was great. It's always a

1213
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:49,800
Speaker 1: pleasure talking with you about this man so much fun.

1214
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:52,800
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks everyone, thanks for listening. Take care.

1215
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive

1216
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: producers are shaun Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

1217
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. I'm Jordan Run Talk.

1218
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:11,840
Speaker 1: I'm Stephen Hayden. If you like what you heard, please

1219
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: subscribe to leave us a review from more podcasts from

1220
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: my heart Radio. Visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1221
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: or ever you listen to your favorite shows.