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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from housetop works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, I'm Joe McCormick, and I

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Speaker 1: am Christian Savior. Hey, and all three of us are

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Speaker 1: back in here again, talk about the ig Nobel Prizes.

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Speaker 1: Part Fishing. Yeah. This is part two of the two

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Speaker 1: part episodes. If you haven't checked out the first part,

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Speaker 1: you might want to go back and listen to that first.

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Speaker 1: It was the last episode we did right before this one.

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Speaker 1: But if you want to just jump right in the middle,

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Speaker 1: you don't care about any context. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: know what the prizes are. You just want to hear

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Speaker 1: about some weird science. Here we are because it's very

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Speaker 1: modular in that respect, and we one study after the other,

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Speaker 1: and we will definitely be talking about weird science today.

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Speaker 1: We are going to be talking about the science of kissing.

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Speaker 1: These science and how many people, how many babies a

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Speaker 1: man could possibly have in a certain period of time

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Speaker 1: of his life, beastings in a sour chickens. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: talking about speed bumps and the pain that they apply

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Speaker 1: to us, right, yeah, oh man, But before we get

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Speaker 1: into that. I want to remind our listeners about our

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Speaker 1: social media presence. So Facebook, Twitter, and Tumblr. We post

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things on those channels that aren't just

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Speaker 1: our podcast, right. We've got our own blog posts, all

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Speaker 1: three of us right for how stuff works as well

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Speaker 1: outside of this, and we've got videos as well. Plus

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Speaker 1: we curate all kinds of weird science that we stumble

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Speaker 1: across throughout the day on the internet. Uh, just yesterday

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Speaker 1: I found some pretty weird stuff about that there's an

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Speaker 1: exo planet that apparently rains molten iron. Did you guys

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Speaker 1: hear about this? Yeah? Put it up on our Facebook

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Speaker 1: page there. That's pretty cool. Yeah. So if you want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, keep abreast of all the kind of cool

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Speaker 1: weird science things that are happening, and check us out

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Speaker 1: on there, and don't forget On Friday's at noon Eastern

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Speaker 1: Standard time, we will be on the periscope to live

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Speaker 1: answer your questions and you know chat give you a

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Speaker 1: little look behind the scenes here at the Stuff to

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Speaker 1: Blow your Mind headquarters. Also Stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 1: dot com. That is another place where you can find

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Speaker 1: all of our podcasts, all of our videos, and the

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Speaker 1: amazing blog posts that mainly Robert composes about things from

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Speaker 1: electronic music to monsters and cat busses. Right, oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: all that good stuff. All right, So let's let's jump

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Speaker 1: right back into it here and talk about the two

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Speaker 1: thousand fifteen Ignoble Prize for medicine. Medicine, Well, that was

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Speaker 1: one of the ones that I looked into, and it

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Speaker 1: was actually for a collection of four studies. So there

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Speaker 1: were three by one recipient and then one by a

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Speaker 1: different group, and they were all studying the scientific consequences

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Speaker 1: of intense kissing and other intimate interpersonal activity. So you

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Speaker 1: can see find what the ladder was. Yeah, well we'll

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Speaker 1: get into that. No, but you can see why this

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Speaker 1: appealed to the Ignoble committee obviously because it involves making

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Speaker 1: out and and sexy sex. So because therefore the studies,

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Speaker 1: my attention is going to have to be rather summary

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Speaker 1: on these. But the basics of the first group, and

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm going to try to say they're beautiful Slovakian names.

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Speaker 1: I apologize to these people if I pronounced them horribly.

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Speaker 1: But the first group included Yaroslava, Georgia Kova, Peter Cheleich,

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Speaker 1: Natalia Commodiova, Tatiana said, latch Cova, Gabriella Repisca, Barbara Vizenia,

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Speaker 1: and Gabrielle Minarik. And there they are, and they were

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Speaker 1: given the award for their paper Prevalence and Persistence of

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Speaker 1: male DNA identified in mixed saliva samples after intense kissing

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Speaker 1: in Forensic Science International Genetics. So their study was an

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Speaker 1: investigation of how much foreign DNA you could expect to

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Speaker 1: find in a woman's mouth after she'd been participating in

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Speaker 1: some quote intense kissing. So here's how the study went.

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Speaker 1: They got twelve pairs of volunteers to try out some

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Speaker 1: of this kissing and see how it goes. And they

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Speaker 1: practiced where the volunteers couples or were they just you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think they were couples. So they practiced

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Speaker 1: some intense kissing behavior for about two minutes, and then

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Speaker 1: afterwards the scientists collected saliva samples from the women in

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Speaker 1: the couples to look for the presence of male DNA

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Speaker 1: with modern highly sensitive molecular methods of DNA detection like

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Speaker 1: multiplex y str PCR, I gotta admit I don't know

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Speaker 1: the first thing about what that is. But I did

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Speaker 1: do a little poking around. It appears to be a

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Speaker 1: real thing. That is a method for detecting the presence

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Speaker 1: of DNA and and for sampling it. So the researchers

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Speaker 1: found that they could show the presence of male DNA

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Speaker 1: and female to live at ten men. It's after the

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Speaker 1: intense kissing had stopped, and even up to sixty minutes

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Speaker 1: after the kissing in some cases. So one thing like

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Speaker 1: I'm inherently curious about right away is why is it

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Speaker 1: specifically male to female kissing and is there a difference

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Speaker 1: in homosexual kissing. I don't know about that, But they

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Speaker 1: did find that they might not be able to say

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Speaker 1: sixty minutes after the kissing was over who the male

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Speaker 1: who was kissing the person was, but they can say

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Speaker 1: this is a male was male, and they are focusing

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Speaker 1: on mail DNA DNA and the female mouth and not

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Speaker 1: the reverse the female. About Slovakian French kissing, well, in

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Speaker 1: a less funny way, I think it has to do

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Speaker 1: with the potential application of this study, which is that

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Speaker 1: it would be potentially useful in forensic science that in

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Speaker 1: cases of sexual assault that involved mouth to mouth context.

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Speaker 1: So if a saliva sample can be collected quickly enough,

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Speaker 1: it may contain useful DNA evidence that could be used

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Speaker 1: against the perpetrator of sexual violence. Gotcha. And and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's more likely that those perpetrators are going to be male,

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Speaker 1: so that's probably why they're zeroing in on that. Yes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those studies where to kind of

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Speaker 1: get into the whole wines it ridiculous, finds it funny.

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Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like a joke that is funny

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Speaker 1: on the surface, and then when you go to explain

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Speaker 1: the joke, you realize that it's actually really serious. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and getting kind of dark. Yeah, But I mean, anything

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Speaker 1: that could help help bring sexual predators to justice, that's

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Speaker 1: certainly a good thing. Yeah. Absolutely, And I'm kind of

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Speaker 1: fascinated by the way that they're isolating this stuff too. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know much about the testing methods that they used,

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Speaker 1: but it seemed to be that they were just they

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Speaker 1: were applying modern like the best equipment and best procedures

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Speaker 1: that we have today, looking for the presence of DNA

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Speaker 1: to saliva, which was something that hadn't been done yet.

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Speaker 1: But I said, there are more studies. Yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: certainly not all in the kissing and interpersonal contact category,

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Speaker 1: because there are also three studies by Dr how do

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Speaker 1: You make Chimada, who operates an allergy clinic in the

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Speaker 1: Osaka Prefecture in Japan, and according to an article I

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Speaker 1: read in the Japan Times, Kamata quote is continuing to

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Speaker 1: find a more natural method to relieve allergy symptoms for

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Speaker 1: his patients without the use of steroids or prescription skin creams.

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Speaker 1: So like, he seems to be a guy who's interested

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Speaker 1: in finding ways to help people with bad allergies get

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Speaker 1: some relief without so much drugs and medication. But do

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Speaker 1: you guys have bad allergies? I do, Yeah, not so much. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't really either. So I my wife has very

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Speaker 1: bad allergies, and so I can sympathize with her pain

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Speaker 1: and understand what it is like to be out in

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Speaker 1: the spring and want to, you know, have a have

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Speaker 1: a full body bubble what they call it, yeah, to

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Speaker 1: to live separate from the world of nature. But according

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Speaker 1: to his research, he has found some very promising leads

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Speaker 1: on natural methods for for getting some allergy relief, and

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Speaker 1: they involve putting on your copy of Selene Dion's my

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Speaker 1: heart will go on, but it is not the music itself.

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Speaker 1: That is just a means to an end. So I'll

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Speaker 1: briefly mention the reported results of three studies. The first

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Speaker 1: was called Kissing reduces allergic skin wheel responses and plasma

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Speaker 1: neurotrophin levels. So here's how it goes. You've got three groups.

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Speaker 1: You've got thirty normal subjects who are control group. They

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Speaker 1: don't have any bad allergies. You have thirty people with

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Speaker 1: allergic rhinitis a are also known as hay fever or

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Speaker 1: just straight up allergies. When people say I have allergies,

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Speaker 1: this is what they're talking about. And then you've got

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Speaker 1: thirty people with a topic dermatitis also known as eggs ema.

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Speaker 1: And of the latter two groups, all the patients are

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Speaker 1: allergic to Japanese cedar pollen and the house dust might

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Speaker 1: and commodically that all of the patients quote do not

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Speaker 1: kiss habitually. This seemed to be a point he was making.

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Speaker 1: I think it was an assumption about Japanese culture, and

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Speaker 1: that like kissing is UH is at least believed to

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Speaker 1: be not as prevalent in Japanese culture as it is

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Speaker 1: in lots of other cultures. I don't know the extent

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Speaker 1: to which that's true today, but that seemed to be

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Speaker 1: an assumption going into his research. That may well be true.

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Speaker 1: That seems to match up with some materials and research

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Speaker 1: in the past. I mean, it gets kind of complicated

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Speaker 1: because you have all these varying cultures and kissing traditions, um,

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Speaker 1: and there's a certain amount of universality, but then there's

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Speaker 1: then there's not in some areas, and then you have

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Speaker 1: Western culture rolling into these areas, and you have Western

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Speaker 1: ideals and images of individuals engaging in these passionate kisses,

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Speaker 1: and that changes everything. Yeah. Um, so so that was

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Speaker 1: what he said, at least they do not kiss habitually.

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Speaker 1: And he's Japanese, yes he is. And so the subjects

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Speaker 1: went into a room with their kissing partner of choic

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Speaker 1: and they quote kissed freely for thirty minutes while listening

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Speaker 1: to soft music. And then so the patients underwent the

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Speaker 1: standard allergists skin prick tests. You'll ever done these, prick

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Speaker 1: your skin to see if you get a wheel response

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Speaker 1: and raised red area, and they did mine. They did,

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Speaker 1: like the whole part of my upper left arm, and

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Speaker 1: then all across the upper part of my back and

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Speaker 1: then they basically prick you with the thing that you're

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Speaker 1: allergic to, and a wheel will rise. If you want

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Speaker 1: to come in, have a crab claw and a jab

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Speaker 1: in your arm and then make it. Yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: like a cockroach. They're just smashing a cockroach in your

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Speaker 1: across the crab claw. If you're for shellfish, yeah, okay, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So they got the standard skin wheel response test, the

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Speaker 1: skin prick test before and after the kissing sessions, and

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Speaker 1: Chimodic claims that the half hour of kissing quote significantly

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Speaker 1: reduced wheel responses for both the DustMite allergen and the

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Speaker 1: Japanese cedar pollen allergen, and though it did not reduce

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Speaker 1: responses for the pure inflammatory agent histamine. So if you

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Speaker 1: just gave people histamine directly, that the kissing did not help, well,

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Speaker 1: does make sense, right, Because you're you're mingling your immune

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Speaker 1: systems a little bit, You're you're mingling your microbiomes, so

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Speaker 1: seems like one would rub off on the other. You'd

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Speaker 1: have some of the soldiers would would take up with

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Speaker 1: the news. Well, I guess I don't know if I

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Speaker 1: should be surprised by this or not. I'm kind of curious,

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Speaker 1: since they gave the test before and after, if they

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Speaker 1: just gave it before and then did nothing and like

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Speaker 1: they didn't make out, and then they gave it to

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Speaker 1: them again afterwards, if they would still have the same results.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Because interesting question because you're

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Speaker 1: you're getting an exposure in your system already, right, and

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Speaker 1: then thirty minutes go by, and then that you're exposed

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Speaker 1: and tested again. So I wonder just how how much

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Speaker 1: naturally your body would would react less to the inflammation. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, after or the end of that, come out

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Speaker 1: of concluded that kissing quote might have some implication in

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Speaker 1: the study of neuroimmunology in allergic patients. And then there

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Speaker 1: were a couple more studies that were pretty much along

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Speaker 1: the same lines. The second one was called reduction of

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Speaker 1: allergic skin wheel responses by sexual intercourse in allergic This

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Speaker 1: guy is like the mad scientists. He's just he's just

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Speaker 1: coming up with reasons so he can watch people make

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Speaker 1: out and have sex. Oh. I don't think he was watching. Oh,

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Speaker 1: but then clearly the data is erroneous. Uh. The study

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Speaker 1: found almost exactly the same thing, except to replace thirty

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Speaker 1: mins of kissing with some sexual intercourse um in allergic people,

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Speaker 1: it reduced skin wheel responses for Japanese cedar pollen and

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Speaker 1: dust mites, but not for pure histamines, So the same

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Speaker 1: pattern as the other one. And in normal non allergic people,

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Speaker 1: sex didn't change anything about skin wheel responses. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: there you got it. What's what's dr creepy? Third study?

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Speaker 1: The third one, it's it's pretty much along the same lines.

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Speaker 1: It's kissing selectively decreases allergen specific i g E production

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Speaker 1: in a topic patients. Again, this is looking at at

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Speaker 1: like skin responses like eggs ama and he found essentially

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Speaker 1: that kissing could alleviate some allergic symptoms by the decrease

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Speaker 1: of what he calls allergen specific i GE production. So

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Speaker 1: so basically, the the thrust of this guy's work in

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Speaker 1: this area is that is that kissing and other intimate

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Speaker 1: interpersonal contact may help with your allergies. Okay, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: next time I'm having problems, I guess I'll have to

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Speaker 1: address that with my wife. But I'd rather than take

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Speaker 1: a lauratodin or whatever I mean, regular paces or use

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Speaker 1: my name. I wonder how many minutes of kissing it

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Speaker 1: takes and at least apparently well no, maybe maybe it

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Speaker 1: would have been the same with ten minutes. Who knows, uh?

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Speaker 1: And so okay, so if it takes like thirty minutes

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Speaker 1: of kissing or the people, are there some people who

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Speaker 1: would be like thirty minutes of kissing, I don't have

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Speaker 1: time for that. I'll just take the drugs. Yeah, exactly right.

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Speaker 1: That's a I don't know, it's a great commercial for

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Speaker 1: like an anti histamine. It's just like, would you do

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Speaker 1: you really have time to kiss someone for thirty minutes?

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Speaker 1: Or would you just like to drink this night? Well

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Speaker 1: or whatever? I'll never sleep again. Well, this study is

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Speaker 1: a makes a great segue. I see now why the

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Speaker 1: ignoble UH committee put these next to one another. Nice

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Speaker 1: transition segue into the mathematics prize, which is all about UH.

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Speaker 1: A guy named Mulai Ismail the blood Thirsty, who I

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Speaker 1: had not heard of before this. No, I was not

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Speaker 1: familiar with this character either. I mean, he sounds impressive.

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Speaker 1: Was he thirsty for blood? He was? Indeed, and I

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Speaker 1: will tell you all about him. The paper itself was

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Speaker 1: written by E. Obern Soccer and K. Grammar. In the

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Speaker 1: case the studies called the case of mulai Ismail fact

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Speaker 1: or fancy and this was also in p L O. S. One. Uh. So, Okay,

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Speaker 1: the basics here are that these researchers developed a computer

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Speaker 1: simulation to program to determine if the myth of mulai

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Speaker 1: Ismail having actually sired eight hundred and eighty eight children,

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Speaker 1: as per the Guinness Book of World Records was true.

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Speaker 1: So the Guinness Book of World Record says he sired

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Speaker 1: eight hundred and eight children. These people want to find

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Speaker 1: out if it's even physically possible for him to do that.

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Speaker 1: They found that he could, and not only that, but

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Speaker 1: he could have much more than eight hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: eight children during his lifetime. So he's really an underachiever. Well,

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Speaker 1: actually no, it turns out that there's reports that he

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Speaker 1: had more. Uh. They also narrowed down how many times

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Speaker 1: a day he would have to copulate and how many

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Speaker 1: women would need to be part of his harem for

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Speaker 1: this whole operation to work. Uh. And they used different models.

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Speaker 1: The first model was a random mating pool where he

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Speaker 1: had unrest unrestricted access to women. The second model, though,

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Speaker 1: it was a quote restricted harem pool, in which basically

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Speaker 1: they took account for as women got pregnant, they would

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Speaker 1: be removed from the harem for at least eighteen months

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Speaker 1: to account for their pregnancy and lack patient times. And

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Speaker 1: then they used three different models for looking at the

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Speaker 1: likelihood of conception across the female cycle. That's they're phrasing,

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Speaker 1: not mine, but basically the ideas they based these these

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Speaker 1: models in different conditions in which ovulation might happen, or

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Speaker 1: like whether or not the sperm would be potent, or

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Speaker 1: whether or not the birth control methods somehow being enacted here, right,

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Speaker 1: So the three models that they used, or the Wilcox

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Speaker 1: Weinberg model, the Barrett Martial model, and then the Joe

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Speaker 1: shiel I Believe model UH. And they found with these

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Speaker 1: three models that roughly UH it would take one point

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Speaker 1: four three times per day with the first one, one

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Speaker 1: point six three times per day with the second one,

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Speaker 1: and only point eight three times of copulation per day

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Speaker 1: with the third one. So they took into account things

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Speaker 1: like menstruation being a taboo or there's an idea that's

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Speaker 1: been reported on another research that people are more attracted

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Speaker 1: to one another during opulation periods UH. And and of

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Speaker 1: course the viability of his sperm decreasing per year as

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Speaker 1: he got older. They added all this stuff into their

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Speaker 1: computer simulation model UH, and even when restricted to the

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Speaker 1: second model UH, they found that he would be able

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Speaker 1: to sire the fabled number of offspring. In fact, he

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Speaker 1: would be able to sire at least one thousand, one

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy one children UH. And that his harem,

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Speaker 1: even though it was reported to be five hundred and

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Speaker 1: four women strong, it wouldn't need to be much larger

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Speaker 1: than somewhere between sixty to ten women for him to

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Speaker 1: achieve this UH. That it might have been that he

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Speaker 1: actually did have a harem that was five hundred people,

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Speaker 1: but that that was for other reasons of potentially he

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Speaker 1: wanted to keep women out of the reach of other

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Speaker 1: men and their reproductive potential right, so that he was

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Speaker 1: he was sort of fathering the next generation. It was

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Speaker 1: probably rare. They also found for each woman in the

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Speaker 1: harem to have had intercourse with him more than once

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Speaker 1: because of the large amount of women that were in

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Speaker 1: the harem. So you know, you you essentially you have

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Speaker 1: intercourse with him, you get pregnant, you have a child,

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Speaker 1: there's a lactation period, and then When the concubines within

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Speaker 1: the Harem reached the age of thirty, they were kicked

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Speaker 1: out isn't the right word, but they weren't part of

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Speaker 1: the Harem anymore. He didn't want anybody over the age

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Speaker 1: of thirty in his hair. Wow. Yeah, I haven't even

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Speaker 1: gotten to why they call him the bloodthirsty yet. This

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Speaker 1: is just all about his h sexual conquests. So uh,

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Iron. He's referred to as the Sheriff Iron Emperor

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Speaker 1: of Morocco Moulay Ishmael the blood Thirsty. He was in

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Speaker 1: power from sixteen seventy two to seventeen twenty seven and

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Speaker 1: became emperor when he was twenty five. So he was

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Speaker 1: the first great Sultan of the Moroccan Aloe Wheat dynasty. Okay,

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Speaker 1: and sheriff Ian means that he claimed to be descended

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Speaker 1: from Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His rule was the

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Speaker 1: longest in Moroccan history, and towards the end he had

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Speaker 1: an army of a hundred and fifty thousand men. He

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Speaker 1: supposedly started his reign by mounting the heads of four

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Speaker 1: hundred enemy chiefs at the city of Fez. Over fifty

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Speaker 1: five years, He's estimated to have killed thirty thousand people.

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Speaker 1: And that's not including those in battle. This is just

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Speaker 1: at his whimsy. He killed people, Okay, okay, and I'll

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Speaker 1: give you some examples of that. Any women who were

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Speaker 1: suspected of adultery were strangled personally by him. So any

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Speaker 1: any of his concubines or any of his wives who

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Speaker 1: he suspected, he strangled them or their breasts were cut

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Speaker 1: off or their teeth were torn out. WHOA. This included

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Speaker 1: former concubines. So even if you hit the age of

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Speaker 1: thirty and were allowed to leave the harem, you were

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Speaker 1: still not allowed to have intercourse with any other man.

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Speaker 1: So he, you know, committed violence against all these women.

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Speaker 1: Just a real winner. Oh yeah, he's a real cheery individual.

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Speaker 1: Any man who looked at one of his wives. He

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Speaker 1: had four wives, and then the five concubines. But any

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Speaker 1: man who looked at the wives or the concubines were

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Speaker 1: punished by the death penalty. I don't think he physically

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Speaker 1: did it himself as he did with the women, but

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Speaker 1: he was bloodthirsty, as the name you know implies. So

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Speaker 1: they looked at this report, the researchers that was written

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Speaker 1: by a French diplomat named Dominique bus Not from seventeen

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Speaker 1: o four and at the time he was visiting. He

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Speaker 1: said that Moulay had six hundred sons with his four

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Speaker 1: wives and five hundred concubines. However, only the daughters from

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Speaker 1: his four wives were allowed to live. Those from the

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Speaker 1: concubines were suffocated by the midwives at birth, so he

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Speaker 1: only wanted male offspring from the concubines. In total, uh,

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Speaker 1: even you know, including all of the children that were uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, supposedly suffocated by these midwives, that comes down

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Speaker 1: to one thousand, one seventy one children in the span

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Speaker 1: of thirty two years. So why is it ridiculous? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, what do we learn from confirming this legend

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Speaker 1: about this man's sexual prowess? Right? That seems pretty weird

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Speaker 1: that they spent all this time looking into this. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean, as as nasty and sensational and uh and

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Speaker 1: cruel as the details of the story are, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess it could be actually interesting from just a

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Speaker 1: mathematics of studying population generation perspective, Like if you want

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Speaker 1: to look at at how animal populations reproduce themselves under

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Speaker 1: certain constraints, like this one, it might be useful to you. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: sort of like Last Man on Earth scenario or repopulating

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Speaker 1: a world that's exactly it that there, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: value to this. It's important because they're trying to figure out,

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Speaker 1: you know, given it a certain scenario, you know, where

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Speaker 1: there's only one man who can potentially do this, like

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Speaker 1: oh why the last Man quite type scenario. You know

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Speaker 1: where actually I feel like this could be useful would

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Speaker 1: be in in uh, trying to deal with endangered species,

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Speaker 1: like if you if you have a species in captivity

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Speaker 1: where you may only have like one one reproducing male

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Speaker 1: or something like, yeah, absolutely, uh. And so for compare

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Speaker 1: Sin Genghis Khan is another one that's sort of fabled

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Speaker 1: to have had many sexual encounters and subsequent offspring. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He had so many offspring in the thirteenth century that

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Speaker 1: eight percent of the men that live currently in the

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Speaker 1: region of his former empire carry almost identical why chromosomes

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Speaker 1: to his. And they've figured out that that's sixteen million descendants.

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Speaker 1: So you can see now, you know why trying to

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Speaker 1: do the math on this and and essentially developing this

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00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 1: program so they can they can map this out is important,

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Speaker 1: so you can figure out sort of genealogy, right, So

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Speaker 1: it is actually telling us something about how the world works,

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Speaker 1: not just about the particulars of this one really nasty

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Speaker 1: guy in history. Yeah, I mean in fact, like yes,

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Speaker 1: like the the historical narrative of him is you know,

401
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Speaker 1: brutal and and sad. Yeah. I had to look him

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Speaker 1: up when you were talking, just too, in the hope

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Speaker 1: that he had like a satisfying death for me. He

404
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Speaker 1: got his come up and did he did? You know?

405
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Speaker 1: I didn't see any mention of assassins slicing him to pieces.

406
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Speaker 1: I believe I may be wrong about this, but I

407
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Speaker 1: believe that his dynasty and his descendants are still in

408
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Speaker 1: power and Morocco, so he's the you know, progenitor of

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Speaker 1: this dynasty essentially. Yeah. Yeah, it's like real life Game

410
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: of Thrones, awful individual thinking about. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But

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Speaker 1: you know, they've got these three different models in this

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Speaker 1: computer program now, so that they can apply that to

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Speaker 1: you know, various other circumstances. And if we're in a

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Speaker 1: circumstance where there's only one man left alive, we know

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Speaker 1: who to turn to to find out how many children

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Speaker 1: they can have to keep the human race. Going all right, well,

417
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Speaker 1: let's let's move on to the next one. This one

418
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Speaker 1: is the two fifteen Ignoble Prize and Biology. And this one,

419
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Speaker 1: this one was a lot of fun to look into.

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Speaker 1: The actual paper is walking like Dinosaurs Chickens with artificial

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Speaker 1: tails provide clues about non avian there apot look emotion

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Speaker 1: by Bruno Grassi, Jose Errat, diez Omar Larch, Marcurio Canalis

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Speaker 1: and Rodrigo A. Vasquez. And this was published in Plus

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Speaker 1: one two thousand fourteen. So the basics here. Um, if

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Speaker 1: you want to study dinosaur biology outside of looking at

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Speaker 1: fossil remains, modern birds are a great study a because,

427
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: of course birds are pretty much the modern dinosaur. Right there,

428
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: can see that the direct lenage the evolution. However, a

429
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 1: lot has changed with the with the basic anatomy since

430
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: the age of the dinosaurs. For instance, living birds maintain

431
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: an unusually crouched hind limb posture and locomotion powered by

432
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: knee flection. Meanwhile, we generally infer that non avian therapods

433
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 1: from the dinosaur age kept a more upright posture and

434
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: their limb movement was powered by femur retraction. So so

435
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: I'm thinking velociraptors from Charassea Park. Yeah. Yeah, so you know,

436
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 1: similar similar bills that is known for its scientific accuracy

437
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: by the way, Yeah, so we're talking similar bill, but

438
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: we're talking you know, different ways of motion and ultimately

439
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: different center of mass. And so in this particular joint

440
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: US Chile and study, the researchers set out to quote

441
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: experimentally manipulate the location of the center of mass and

442
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: living birds. And what better way to do that than

443
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: to raise some chickens with artificial tails stuff to their bums.

444
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: And it's and it's key here that they were they

445
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: had the artificial tail during key growth phases, so they

446
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: would they would stick it on, they stuck out on

447
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: early and they kept having to change it up because

448
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: the bird group. So for our for our audience, in

449
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: the notes, Robert has inserted a picture of Donald Duck

450
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: with a plunger on his butt. Yes, and I mean,

451
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly what Disney cartoon this is from,

452
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: but it instantly came to my mind and it it

453
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: hg is up pretty perfectly with what they actually did,

454
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: because the tail in the experiment was make them wear

455
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,719
Speaker 1: a little sailor upfits sadly not, I mean, but they

456
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: did have an elastic fabric coat with Velcrow fasteners to

457
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: hold this on because it's essentially the tail was a

458
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: wooden stick set in a clay molding base that was

459
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: then held on with with Velcrow and elastic, and they

460
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: replaced it every five days. As the chickens group. But yeah,

461
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: if you remember Donald Duck with a plunger on his

462
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: but that's exactly what this consisted of. UM, so that

463
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: what But what this accomplished is that it effectively moved

464
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: the chickens center of mass towards the posterior, and the

465
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: chickens did, in fact demonstrate quote a more vertical orientation

466
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: of the femur during standing and increased femeral displacement during locomotion.

467
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: So I'd have to go back and rewatch that Disney cartoon.

468
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: But I'm assuming Donald Duck did not walk differently, UH,

469
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: that his gate didn't change, the center of mass didn't

470
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: change in the cartoon based on a plunger, but this

471
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: experiment proved that he would have. UM. This is not

472
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: all that far away from the research that we were

473
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: looking at last week on the podcast about UM why

474
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: certain early humans had short legs because it enabled their

475
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: center of gravity to be better for fighting and grappling. Yeah. Yeah,

476
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: it's very very much just about just how the creature's

477
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: position and ultimately what the creatures doing. A chicken a

478
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: modern nut, you know, domesticated chicken versus this, uh, this

479
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: ancient creature. So why is it funny? Of course, chickens

480
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: are inherently funny. We all know that just the sound

481
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: of the chicken is funny, and sticking the plunger on

482
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: ones but even funnier, especially if it's ultimately about exploring dinosaurs,

483
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: which you're generally not inherently funny, but you know, inherently cool.

484
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: Do you think there's ever a point with the research

485
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: in the Ignoble Prizes where the researchers kind of set

486
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: back one afternoon and they said, all right, let's stick

487
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: a plunger on the chicken's butt. That's essentially what they did,

488
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: and from there work our way back to write an

489
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: academic paper about this that the scientific justification of the

490
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: plunger on the butt. Yeah. I like the idea of

491
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: the researchers, like after it's after it's published and they're

492
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: feeling proud of their work. They end up what seeing

493
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: some Disney cartoons on TV and like, oh my god,

494
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: that's where that can that's anatomically inaccurate. Um, No, I

495
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: believe them. I believe that this was done in good

496
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: faith and for good scientific reasons. Yeah. Yeah, and it's

497
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 1: it's it ultimately helps us understand the anatomy of these

498
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: ancient creatures and help us better understand the evolution that's

499
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 1: taken place with this form um. And they also point

500
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: out that through careful of phenotypic manipulation of of of

501
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 1: our modern birds, we can actually quote open new avenues

502
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: of experimental invest stigation into unexplored faucets of dinosaur local

503
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: locomotive mechanics and energetic So so, unless I'm misunderstanding that

504
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: they're saying we can genetically engineer birds to turn back

505
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: into dinosaurs, Yeah, that's I mean, that's some some research

506
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: has been on the table for for a while that

507
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: there are various various ways you can sort of turn

508
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: turn various a genetic and epigenetic traits on and off

509
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: and hearken back to earlier morphological modes. Well, as I

510
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: learned in Jurassic World, these have the you know, military

511
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: possibility you could send in a pack of these genetically

512
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: modified birds into take out some enemies of the state.

513
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: So I have a question for you guys. It always

514
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: happens in the movies that the military is interested in

515
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: the creation of monsters that kill people. Has there ever

516
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: been a real military experiment in creating monsters that kill people? Um?

517
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: To a certain extent, you can look at various UM

518
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: projects that involved using animals as explosive delivery devices. Are

519
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: you also using animals as spy devices? That's true, Yeah,

520
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: you got your spy pigeons, you got your dog that

521
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: runs under a tank with a bomb on effect. But

522
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: but I mean like giant scorpions. Um, this sounds like

523
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: you get into some sort of gray areas here. You know,

524
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: in terms of how much of this is actually is

525
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: there any truth to it, and how much of it

526
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: is just hearsay in mythology, you do see some this

527
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: is a whole separate podcast, but you do see some

528
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: some arguments that the Soviets were interested in creating some

529
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: sort of man ape um, you know, hybrid that would

530
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: have probably if you give those stories any credence, they

531
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: would have probably been used for labor and I'm not

532
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: sure I get those stories any credence. I feel like

533
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: this is something we need to do some more research

534
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: and tackle for an episode. It sounds like, I mean,

535
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: all of the goal all the best movies begin with

536
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: a creature that's designed by the military as a weapon

537
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 1: but then gets loose on an airplane. Species. Oh they

538
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: get it from like yeah, it's like an alien like code,

539
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: but the military are the ones who are developing. But anyway,

540
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: getting back to the study with the chicken with the

541
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: plunger on us, but I do think, I don't know,

542
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: it's interesting because having great movies like Jurassic Park and stuff,

543
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: we can forget that we've never actually seen a dinosaur move. Yeah,

544
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: because of the movies are so good and they stick

545
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: in the mind. We think we've seen what it's like

546
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: for a Tyrannosaurs rex to walk, but we haven't. We

547
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: don't know what it would be like. We've seen those illustrations,

548
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: we've seen representations of how we think they move, but again,

549
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: all that is is based on looking at the fossil

550
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: remains comparing those two existing creatures, and this is uh,

551
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: this is an experiment that kind of bridges the gap

552
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: between its yeah, Hey, so I think it's time to

553
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: take a quick break to hear about our sponsor for

554
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: this episode. But after that we're gonna come right back

555
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: and talk about more weird science. Okay, Well, I think

556
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: if it's time to talk about the next award. This

557
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: next one was the prize given in physiology and entomology.

558
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: So that's kind of a weird mixture study of the

559
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 1: body and study of insects. And the essential unifying factor

560
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: here is insect stings, stinging insects and the pain they inflict.

561
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: So there were there were two different recipients for for

562
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: different studies on this award. It was Dr Justin oh

563
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: Schmidt was the first one, and then also Michael L. Smith.

564
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: So Schmidt is an American entomologist who has been studying

565
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: stinging insects like wasps, ants, bees for decades a long time,

566
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: and over the course of his career he's been stung

567
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: at lot. He's been stung just inadvertently, it happens. I

568
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: think there are some people who have reported that he

569
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 1: he set out intentionally to get himself stung by a

570
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: thousand different insects, and that's not necessarily true. But over

571
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 1: the course of his career, he has been inadvertently stung

572
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: more than a thousand times, and he's ranked the stings

573
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: of dozens of insects. The last figure I saw is

574
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: seventy eight different insects species by the level of pain

575
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: inflicted by the stings is purely subjective based on his

576
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: experience of the stings. Yes, both of these studies are

577
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 1: going to be inherently subjective. But at the same time,

578
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: I think useful because I mean, there are lots of

579
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: phenomena we study that are inherently subjective. But itself is

580
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: difficult to the class behind this regard. Yeah, they're inherently

581
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: you don't know the meaning of the word, right, They're

582
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: they're inherently subjective, but you can you can see trends emerge.

583
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: But you know, if you have a bunch of people

584
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: rate pain, you'll eventually discovered that it does actually more

585
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: on average to get hit in the head with a

586
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: hammer than it does to get flicked in the cheek

587
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: or something. But anyway, the scale, he he created a

588
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: scale that's known as the Schmidt sting pain index, and

589
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 1: so the scale goes from zero to four. A zero

590
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,720
Speaker 1: is no effect at all. One is kind of a small,

591
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: little spark of pain, like a sweat bee or something.

592
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 1: A two is going to be a for a common

593
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: sting like the sting of a honey bee of APIs

594
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: MALIFERA three is a more kind of intense, powerful, really

595
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 1: troubling pain, and they're there are a bunch of insects

596
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: he lists that can give things like that, and then

597
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 1: A four is just melt your brain pain. An example

598
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: of level four is the tropical bullet ant parapone Era clavata,

599
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: which is pain that It's been described in a lot

600
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: of ways. I want to sort of summarize the things

601
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: I've read about it by saying it's like having a

602
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: hot nail shoved into your bones and the pain lasts

603
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: for twenty four hours. There is and speaking of the

604
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 1: animals that we could utilize for military purposes, oh yeah,

605
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: bullet ants, Yeah, some giant bullet at Also around four

606
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: is the tarantula hawk, which you can actually run into

607
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,239
Speaker 1: in the United States, I think in the Southwest. Really,

608
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: this stuff is like if it'll if it stings you,

609
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: it's just unbearable. It's not lethal, right right, Well, I

610
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: don't know if if it's impossible for it to be lethal,

611
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: but I haven't read anything about it being lethal, I mean,

612
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: at least not regular and not to a person who

613
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have an existing allergic reaction, right, yeah. Uh. And

614
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: so there's actually, if you want to read it, there

615
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 1: are plenty of places out on the internet where the

616
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: Schmidt sting pain scale has been supplemented with these kind

617
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: of wine tasting style descriptions that originally came out of

618
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 1: an article that he gave some quotes to in the

619
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties. And it's pretty funny. I'm not going to

620
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: read through all of them here, but you know, it

621
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: would be like, oh, sort of like light fruity pain

622
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: had a flutter of strawberries, Like what's that movie Sideways? Oh? Yeah, yeah,

623
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 1: you know, I can imagine a future where you'll have

624
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: the human race it's so jaded by pleasurable distant stations

625
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: that they do have to explore. It's the cinemabytes, yeah,

626
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: exploring the limits of pleasure and pain intertwined. But anyways,

627
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: Schmidt first published a version of his sting pain index

628
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighty three paper Hemolytic Activities of Stinging

629
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: Insect Venoms in the Journal Insect Biochemistry and Physiology, and

630
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: he has since expanded and refined his scale in some

631
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: subsequent publications, and so now it's pretty big. You know,

632
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: it's got at least seventy eight insects. He might have

633
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 1: added more since then. But while there is some inherent

634
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: subjectivity to this, I think it's interesting that it's useful

635
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: to have ways of care aracterizing the levels of inflicted

636
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: pain by different insects so that we can study things

637
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: like insect venom and its effects. If you don't have

638
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: something like a sting pain scale, how do you begin

639
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 1: to study the relationship between like venom compounds and sting

640
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: pain or treatment. Sure, yeah, leading to treatment studies. Yeah,

641
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: But one of the things that Schmidt had acknowledged in

642
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: some of his earlier work is that different sting locations

643
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: on the body will make a difference. But he didn't

644
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: try to formulate a scale to reflect that. You know,

645
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: the map of pain across the body, Well, that's my

646
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: my new horror story map of pain. Oh no, it

647
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: makes me think about Jeffrey Combs and the Frighteners and

648
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: my body is a roadmap of pain. But in a

649
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: Cornell graduate student in neurobiology and behavior named Michael L.

650
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: Smith published a paper explore dring this theme, which it

651
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,360
Speaker 1: was a different variable on the same question. So instead

652
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: of measuring the relative pain experience of stings inflicted by

653
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: different insects, he decided to measure the difference of pain

654
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: inflicted by the same insect stinging different places on the

655
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: body on himself. Okay, So Smith had been studying honeybee

656
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: behavior and evolution, and according to an interview he gave

657
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: to National Geographic, he was inspired to do this experiment

658
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 1: after a bee flew up his shorts and stung him

659
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,120
Speaker 1: in the testicles. That would definitely be an inspiring situation

660
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: of silence from Michael L. Smith and his testicles. Yeah,

661
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 1: so the paper he wrote it doesn't stop there because

662
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: the paper he wrote it is called honey Bee Sting

663
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: Pain Indexed by Body Location. You can read the full

664
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: text online. It's available for free, and it is it's

665
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: it's certainly not going to win an award for like

666
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: the most rigorous methodology in the world because the number

667
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 1: of subjects is one the author himself, and the reporting

668
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: is inherently subjective. As we've been talking about, all of

669
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: this admitted in good humor by the author. It's not

670
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: like he's trying to make a bigger deal of it

671
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: than days. But it is a pretty fun read if

672
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: you're interested in some dry humor. A great example is

673
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: in his methods section, he says Cornell University's Human Research

674
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: Protection Program does not have a policy regarding researcher self experimentation,

675
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: so this research was not subject to review from their offices.

676
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: The methods do not conflict with the Helsinki Declaration of

677
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: ve revised in nineteen eighty three. The author was the

678
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: only person stung was aware of all associated risks therein,

679
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: gave his consent and is aware that these results will

680
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: be made public. Um, so his method was pretty interesting.

681
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 1: The research was carried out in and Smith picked twenty

682
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: five different locations on the body to test with the

683
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: standard stimulus of a honey bee sting. And the honey

684
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: bee sting is a good choice for a standard stimulus

685
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: because it's right in the middle of the Schmidt scale,

686
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: you remember, Yeah, so it's right in the middle. It's

687
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 1: it hurts, but it's not blinding pain. I'm guessing it's

688
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: also easy to control the number of stings. Yeah, that's

689
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: true also, and it's a familiar reference point for many

690
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: people in the world, a lot of people have been

691
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,760
Speaker 1: stung by honey bees. So during the test, Smith goated

692
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: bees to sting him five times every day, always between

693
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: nine am and ten am, to avoid the sort of

694
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: pain perception variants that could be related to time of day.

695
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: It's possible that you might feel more pain in the

696
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: evening or something, So between nine and ten Back up

697
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: for a second, why would that be because of like

698
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: he just wanted he just wanted to eliminate that there,

699
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: he just had us. Yeah, so it's always between nine

700
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: and ten am. He'd get stung five times, and the

701
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: sting session would start with a calibration sting on the forearm,

702
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 1: which he used as his intern old standard. He gave

703
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: the forearms sting a five point oh pain rating out

704
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: of ten and so that's right in the middle. So

705
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: all of the other stings were rated relative to what

706
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 1: it feels like to get stung right on the forearm

707
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: by a honeybee. Is it worse? Is it not as bad?

708
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: And then he so he rated the test locations relative

709
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: to that, and then he would sting himself three times

710
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: in various test locations with a calibration sting before and

711
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,399
Speaker 1: after on the forearm. So I have a question. Yeah,

712
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: how do you goa to the bees to sting you

713
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: in specific ways? Oh, I'm getting to that part. In fact,

714
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: just let me read you a quote straight from his

715
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 1: materials quote. Bees were taken from the cage haphazardly with

716
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: four steps to to apply the sting. The bee was

717
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: grabbed by the wings and plus pressed against the desired

718
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 1: sting location. The bee was held against the sting location

719
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: until the sting was first felt, and kept at the

720
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,839
Speaker 1: location for five seconds to ensure that the stinger would

721
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: penetrate the skin. The bee was pulled away after five seconds,

722
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: leaving the stinger in the skin. The stinger was left

723
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 1: in the skin for one minute and then removed with

724
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: four steps. So he just to he thought it out,

725
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: and then he made a roadmap of pain. Oh we're

726
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: looking at the map of pain now. Yeah. So it's

727
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: marks all the places on the body where he stung himself.

728
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: And it's pretty funny to imagine how he got the

729
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: bee to sting him, for example, on the buttocks and

730
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: the back of the neck. And there must have been

731
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 1: some kind of must have had help, right, he probably

732
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: had like a like an intern. I don't know, he

733
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: didn't say anything about that, but anyway, he found some results.

734
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: So out of the twenty five places, he found that

735
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: the least painful places to get stung were the skull,

736
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: the middle toe tip, and the upper arm. That's inter right,

737
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: because I would have thought the buttock for some reason,

738
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, that seems like a great And

739
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: then he found that the three most painful locations were

740
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 1: the nostril, the upper lip, and the penis shaft, which

741
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: got a nine point oh out of ten for the

742
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: nostril and eight point seven for the upper lip and

743
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: a seven point three for the penis shaft. I wouldn't

744
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: have thought about the nostril being that bad, but yeah,

745
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get to the nostril in a minute. So

746
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: Smith found that for him, a few things were interestingly

747
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 1: ruled out. He found that the side of the body

748
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: was not a significant factor in pain perception, so left

749
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 1: or right doesn't matter. I found that the date of

750
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: stinging did not matter, and the order of stinging per

751
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: round did not matter. The most significant factor in pain

752
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: variation was, as predicted, the location of the sting. So

753
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 1: in short, it doesn't much matter whether you get stung

754
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: on Wednesday and Thursday. It matters if you get stung

755
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: on the knee or on the nipple, Okay, And so

756
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: I wanted to do a little test and see if

757
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: you guys can guess the following without looking. Okay, So

758
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna give you three places to get

759
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: stung and see if you can rank them in order

760
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:12,879
Speaker 1: of least painful the most painful. Okay, upper thigh, foot arch,

761
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: so the instep, the sole of your foot, foot arch,

762
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: and behind the ear. Oh m hmmm. I would do

763
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: you want us both to do it? I would say

764
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: arch as of the foot is worse, and then and

765
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: then behind the ear and then thigh. Yeah. I'm kind

766
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: of going based on people I know who've had tattoos

767
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: uh done in those areas and how much pain they experience,

768
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 1: And so I think it's going to be behind the ear,

769
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: the foot arch, and then the thigh and at the end. No,

770
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: so they were all pretty close, but it was actually

771
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: in the order I said. The least painful was the

772
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: upper thigh, the second most painful was the foot arch,

773
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 1: and then the most painful was behind the ear. I

774
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: just was doing it in reverse orders. Sorry. Yeah, So

775
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: that's four point seven, five point and five point three respectively.

776
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: All pretty close. Yeah, not very far off. Now I

777
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: got three more for you, so you can do these

778
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: screwed um, buttock nipple. Okay, from least to most. Yeah,

779
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: I've got to go buttock nipple screwed hum. Would you agree?

780
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: Christian no Leasta wears buttock screwed um nipple for me? Okay,

781
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: Robert was right, it goes buttock nipple screwed um. The

782
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: nipple and screwed um are very close. The screwed um

783
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: was a seven point o out of ten, the nipples

784
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 1: six point seven and the buttock three point seven. He

785
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: points out also in the paper that this is limited

786
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 1: by also mail at enemy, so he's having stings on location,

787
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 1: so get stung on. I'm curious about the gender applications.

788
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: And he couldn't convince any of his female colleagues. He

789
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: couldn't convince anybody. I don't know if he tried, but

790
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: it was a kind of study where you might realize

791
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 1: I'm the only one. He's the game for this. Well,

792
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: you know he as he kind of pointed out like

793
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: it would probably introduce complications with ethics review if he

794
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: was trying to get other people to submit to this,

795
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: so he just did it to himself and in the

796
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 1: spirit of science. I think it's interesting what he found.

797
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: Why it's ridiculous, that's fairly obvious because it involves grabbing

798
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: these with tweezers and pressing them against your nipples until

799
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: they attack. Um, just like I kind of wish, and

800
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, like maybe he did, maybe he didn't,

801
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: but he was like documenting the whole thing, and that

802
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: there's just like like twenty years from now, this series

803
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 1: of photos is going to come out of him, like

804
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: with the forceps applying them in various areas or the audio.

805
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: I would, oh, yeah, that'd be good too. Yeah, that's

806
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,919
Speaker 1: just a whole podcast on its own, just getting stung

807
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: by peace different areas and listening to people yelling pain.

808
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So I think that this actually is, believe

809
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 1: it or not, despite the small sample size and the

810
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: subjective nature of it, I do think it's interesting research this,

811
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,959
Speaker 1: both the Schmidt Sting Pain Index and the subsequent body

812
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: road map of pain, because there certainly not as objective

813
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: as like taking your temperature with the thermometer or measuring

814
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: your white cell count or something. But They're important for

815
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: helping us characterize the relationship between insects, venoms and the

816
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 1: subjective sensations they produce. Uh, it would be more useful

817
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 1: in the future probably to repeat these same types of

818
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 1: experiments just with larger sample size, just get more people

819
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: to get stung and report how much pain they felt.

820
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: But again that that presents an experimental problem. It's hard

821
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: to get an experiment like that ethically. Yeah, but if

822
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: you combine Schmidt's research, his his pain index, and this,

823
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: you get like a fairly interesting roadmap of pain. Yeah,

824
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: you ultimately, I mean that's what it's It's about your

825
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,360
Speaker 1: mapping an unmapped area, which kind of goes back to

826
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: the fly mold analogy and science. What if it was scorpions.

827
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, that's maybe that's his next project. Well,

828
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: and this is like the jackass of academic studies. Yeah,

829
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: getting getting like hit in the face like Johnny Knoxville

830
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: publishes and p l O S one like like this

831
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: is what happens when you jump off a trampoline when

832
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 1: you're naked into a pit of snakes. I don't think

833
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 1: they do the snakes, No, No, they do it. They

834
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: do a bit of nails. Yeah. Anyway, though, another interesting

835
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: takeaway from this was not just about the venom and

836
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: the sting pain, but about human responses. So one of

837
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: the things that Smith pointed out in his research was

838
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: that it's kind of weird how the most pain full

839
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: sting of all of them was a sting to the nostril.

840
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: He says that it was the especially violent. It was

841
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: a nine point o out of ten. He really did

842
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 1: not want to repeat that one, though he knew he

843
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 1: had to for the experiment, and he was not looking

844
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: forward to it. But he said that the nostrils stings

845
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 1: were especially violent, immediately inducing sneezing, tears and a copious

846
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: flow of mucus. Uh. And then he also points does

847
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 1: that make sense that they're probably fairly sensitive. Yeah, and

848
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: he's He says the sting did autautomize in the nostril,

849
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 1: meaning it it cut itself off, so the stinger gets separated, um,

850
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 1: and then the bee is removed, but the stinger stays

851
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: in uh. And he mentions that the copious full of mucus, however,

852
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: may help prevent subsequent stings to the area during a

853
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: natural attack. So that's something that we might now understand

854
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: better about humans in this scenario where if you're actually

855
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: getting stung by bees in the wild, putting all this

856
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: mucus out might prevent more bees from the stinging you

857
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: in that place. That's good. That's a good I think

858
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 1: it requires further research by some some brave, foolish individual. Well,

859
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 1: so anyway, I very much enjoyed reading about that, and

860
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: I hope that there is at least one more study

861
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: about pain. Oh there is, yes. Our final study here

862
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: is the two thousand fifteen Ignoble Prize for Diagnostic Medicine,

863
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: and it deals entirely with speed bumps and appendicitis. So

864
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: the actual and and this is I was really fascinated

865
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: by this because I I have not suffered appendicitis. I

866
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 1: have not had my appendix out, so I can't directly

867
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: relate to the pain. And I'm and kind of look

868
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: about their last time. I haven't just go on these

869
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 1: subjective accounts of what that pain is like. Um. The

870
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 1: paper in question here is Pain over speed Bumps and

871
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: Diagnosis of Acute Appendicitis Colon Diagnostic Accuracy Study. And this

872
00:51:53,880 --> 00:52:00,240
Speaker 1: is from Helen f Ashdown, Nigel Dososa, uh Delilah Caramer

873
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: j Stevens, Andrew Huang, and Anthony Harndon. And these are

874
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 1: all researchers from the University of Oxford and Stoke Mandeville Hospital. Okay,

875
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: so here's the basic deal. You have acute appendicitis, all right,

876
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,960
Speaker 1: and it's it's this is actually the most common surgical

877
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 1: abdominal emergency, and rapid diagnosis of appendicitis is critical because

878
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: the more time that passes between diagnosis and surgical treatment,

879
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: the greater the risk for complications and even death. You

880
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,800
Speaker 1: gotta get it fixed quick right. And then this is

881
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: where it gets trickier. There's no specific clinical diagnostic test

882
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: for appendicitis. We don't have a device that you can

883
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: point at the body. There's not a blood test. Most

884
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: all of it has to depend. It just depends on

885
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:53,960
Speaker 1: the doctor talking to somebody, getting their subjective feedback about

886
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: the pain they're experiencing. And then the doctor has to

887
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: has to make a call do we do we cut

888
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: them open? Do we not kind them open with performer

889
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: or do or do we not? And as a result,

890
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: the rate of negative appendectomy that's surgery performed performed on

891
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: a healthy appendix ranges from four percent to yeah. So

892
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: clinical diagnosis especially that early diagnosis can be challenging because

893
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 1: you want to catch it early, but you if it's

894
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,480
Speaker 1: it's early, it's gonna be harder to determine if that's

895
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,000
Speaker 1: actually what's going on. And you don't want to remove

896
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,400
Speaker 1: a healthy appendix. You don't want to perform unnecessary surgery

897
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 1: on people for a variety of reasons. So one possibility

898
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: emerges here, and that is the role of speed bumps because,

899
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 1: as it turns out, into the literal federal speed on

900
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,879
Speaker 1: the road, lumps of asphalt that make your car, truck

901
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: or bus go blah blah blah blom up and down. Because,

902
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: as it turns out, individuals coming into the hospital for

903
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: appendicitis or suspected in appendicitis often find those speed bumps

904
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 1: really painful to go over, and emergency rooms have lots

905
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 1: of speed bumps in front of them usually, Yeah, I

906
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 1: think so it would make sense. Yeah, it's like the

907
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: no wake sign of the hospital. You don't want people

908
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 1: zooming around. Yeah. Yeah. So, as it turns out, some

909
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:18,240
Speaker 1: doctors actually incorporate this into their diagnostics. Uh, when asking

910
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: somebody about their pain, trying to determine if they have

911
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 1: a pendicidis, they might ask them, well, what was it

912
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: like going over the speed bump or the series of

913
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 1: speed bumps coming into the hospital. Yeah, so that's why

914
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: those speed bumps are there. Well, it makes you, in

915
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: this study roll, I think, ultimately make you think that

916
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: any hospital that doesn't have speed bumps and needs them,

917
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: because what they did is they decided to look into

918
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: this right to see if there's any actual validity too

919
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: doctors asking about this? Should a doc? Should all doctors

920
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 1: ask about speed bumps? Uh and and abdominal pain. So

921
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 1: this is a really fun paper. I'm not gonna read

922
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: the whole intro, but I also really love that it

923
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: has one of these very clinical intros that define finds

924
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: what a speed bump is and why we have them. Um.

925
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: But the study itself examined a hundred and one patients

926
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: who were referred to the hospital for suspected appendicitis to

927
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: testing took place in two thousand twelve and patients were

928
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: between seventeen and seventy six years of age. Patients were

929
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: classed as speed bump positive if they had a worsening

930
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: of pain while traveling over the speed bumps, and they

931
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: were classified as speed bump negative if their pain stayed

932
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: the same if they were unsure or if their pain improved.

933
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 1: Wait a second, of people who were like, oh I

934
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: feel better that way back on the speed bump, it

935
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 1: was just I think I think we got it. So

936
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: all the participants were in question within twenty four hours

937
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: of their journey of the hospital. So these are the findings.

938
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,359
Speaker 1: Sixty four patients traveled over speed bumps on the way

939
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: to the hospital. Fifty four of those were speed bump positive.

940
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: Thirty four of the sixty four had a confirmed diagnosis

941
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: of acute appendicitis, in which thirty three that's had worse

942
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 1: in pain over speed bumps. Seven patients who were speed

943
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 1: bump positive did not have appendicitis, but they did have

944
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: other significant problems such as ruptured or varian cyst or diverticulitis.

945
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 1: So in the end, they concluded that an increase in

946
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: pain over speed bumps is associated with an increased likelihood

947
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: of acute appendicitis and it should be a key part

948
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:29,759
Speaker 1: of any doctor doctor's questioning during diagnosis. This is this

949
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: is one of those ones that seems well, first of all,

950
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,279
Speaker 1: I just used huh in the way that wasn't diagnosed

951
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: in the previous report, But Also, this is one of

952
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: the ones that just seems like common sense that you

953
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't need an academic or rigorous investigation done well, But

954
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,960
Speaker 1: it's a good thing to do. It's one of those

955
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,879
Speaker 1: where science is coming in and saying, yeah, it's like, we, well,

956
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: we know what's down that hallway. Do we need science

957
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: to check it? Well? How we do, because you can

958
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: imagine a scenario where the search would have said the

959
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: opposite instead. Actually, it's just willy nilly one way or

960
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: the other. This is no better than some medieval technique

961
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: of questioning the humors, you know. I mean that is

962
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: a standard response that I pretty much always opposed when

963
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 1: people say, like, oh, we didn't need to study to

964
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: show this this is obvious. I mean when you say that,

965
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: it just sounds like you're saying, our intuitions are good enough.

966
00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: Our intuitions are not good enough, Our intuitions are wrong

967
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: all the time. This is like what science is good

968
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: for is figuring out whether or not your intuitions are correct. Yeah, uh,

969
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: you know that. This also gets into why this study

970
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,360
Speaker 1: is funny and ridiculous, because the idea of a speed

971
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 1: bump a lump of asphalt serving is a diagnostic tool

972
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: in uh, in diagnosing a very real and very dangerous condition. Uh.

973
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean there's this something just ridiculous about that. And

974
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: then of course it all ties back into the idea

975
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: that we don't have a a better diagnostic system, right, Yeah,

976
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: Like they don't have a way to test this other

977
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 1: than asking them what their experience was like hitting the

978
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 1: speed bump on the way. And well, I wonder what

979
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: like if models of vehicles come into play, you know,

980
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: like if you're in a Range Rover going over speed

981
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: bump versus a Dodge Challenger. But you know, oh yeah,

982
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: like you know the suspension in your car, that would

983
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: definitely be a factor. Yeah. It makes me wonder too

984
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: if there's a if they might just create some sort

985
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:33,800
Speaker 1: of like funky Halloween chair that you set in the

986
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 1: doctor's office. The kind of does that does that hurt?

987
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: Sit in the bump chair? Um? Yes, I mean it's

988
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: a oh man, I can't wait for the scene in

989
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: the James Bond movie where somebody they get him to

990
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: test the bump chair, but then one of the henchmen

991
00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: tries to kill him by turning the bump chair all

992
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 1: the way up like in Moon Raker and they put

993
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 1: him in the G four simulator. That would be good,

994
00:58:57,400 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: But it wouldn't he have to have an appenducitis for

995
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: it to work. No, No, you can just bump them

996
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: to death with the sheer forces of it. Okay, do

997
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,840
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about, Roger Moore? I mean, yeah,

998
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: I need to see that one again because it's to

999
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:15,919
Speaker 1: think it was the worst, but maybe it's the best,

1000
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: because I've kind of gotten to the point in my

1001
00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 1: life where I don't know that I like any of

1002
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: the James Bond films, so maybe I need to see

1003
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 1: the the worst of them to appreciate the Again. I

1004
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 1: was just talking about this with a friend the other day.

1005
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: It's really moon Raker when I was a little kid,

1006
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 1: but I don't know that it would hold up now.

1007
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 1: All right, today you haven't. Hey, If you want to

1008
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: check out each of these studies in more detail, check

1009
00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 1: out the landing page for this episode it's Stuff to

1010
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot Com. We'll make sure that their

1011
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: links to related content on the website, to the how

1012
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:47,959
Speaker 1: stuff Works article about the Ignoble Prizes that I wrote

1013
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 1: years ago, and more to the point links out to

1014
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: the specific pieces of research that are referenced here. Yeah,

1015
00:59:54,560 --> 00:59:56,439
Speaker 1: and while you're there, it's Stuff to Blow your Mind

1016
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: dot com. You can check out our blog posts, other episodes, podcasts, videos.

1017
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 1: We've got all that stuff plus you know what's on.

1018
01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com links to all

1019
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 1: of our social media channels, which is Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler,

1020
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: where you can find us under the handle below the mind.

1021
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: And if you want to email us with your feedback

1022
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: about the episode we recorded today or part one we

1023
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: did last time, you can email us at blow the

1024
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: Mind at how staff works dot com for more on

1025
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff

1026
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: works dot com