Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?
Speaker 1: What do they have? Individualism, the patriarchy, zef invest start
Speaker 1: changing it with the beck Del Cast. Hello, and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Durante and
Speaker 1: my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast
Speaker 1: about the portrayal of women in movies, or as I
Speaker 1: like to see the betrayal of women in movies sometimes,
Speaker 1: don't you think? I agree. We have kind of an
Speaker 1: unusual recording situation today, which is kind of nice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about it. And we're in your bed. We're
Speaker 1: in my bed, which is where we usually record the
Speaker 1: Matreon episodes if you're a member of our Patreon aka Matreon.
Speaker 1: Yeah you know, but today we're doing a main feed
Speaker 1: episode in the bed, which is weird because I'm used
Speaker 1: to be in loose in the bed, but now I'm like,
Speaker 1: no button up, not all button's about a couple of them.
Speaker 1: I think this will be a nice sort of blend
Speaker 1: of the silliness that we engage in a bit more
Speaker 1: on the Matreon, but also perhaps a bit more structured
Speaker 1: like a main feed episode. Life is so complicated. So
Speaker 1: normally we have a guest. We don't have one this
Speaker 1: time because we were about to record with our guests
Speaker 1: and then something came up, but we weren't able to
Speaker 1: reschedule with them because I'm about to go into surgery. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm about to have my sludge pouch removed. It's probably
Speaker 1: it'll be gone. It's my gall bladder, but it's really
Speaker 1: a sludge pouch. And if you need more information about
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, you'll just simply have to listen
Speaker 1: to Sludge an American health care story, my podcast about
Speaker 1: how the system here is very funked up and biased
Speaker 1: and broken. So give that listen. But so, we weren't
Speaker 1: able to reschedule with our guest before my surgery, so
Speaker 1: it's just Jamie and I doing this. Bed keeping is
Speaker 1: but not too loose. Yeah, And this is the last
Speaker 1: sludgey episode of the Bechtel Cast, which I think we're
Speaker 1: all very grateful for it. It's sludge free after this.
Speaker 1: My mom sending you an edible arrangement. We're telling me
Speaker 1: this earlier. I was like, well, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: and she asked for your address. So maybe, but maybe
Speaker 1: she's going to get him. She's just gonna show up.
Speaker 1: She's gonna use her jet blue points. Oh good for Jill.
Speaker 1: She loves her jet blue points. And I think all
Speaker 1: of that past the Bechtel tests. Oh yes it did. Wow,
Speaker 1: great structure. Um so we analyze. Actually, I think my
Speaker 1: sludge identifies as a man because it's vengeful trying to
Speaker 1: ruin your life and invading my body and space and
Speaker 1: only a man. And it is nice too because it
Speaker 1: just means that will inherently miss it less that's gone anyway.
Speaker 1: Oh man, I want to make a cartoon of like
Speaker 1: you're slow singing like, don't make me go do like
Speaker 1: wait there, don't humanize my sludge the anthropomorphs like wait
Speaker 1: before you behead me, doctor, I just want to plead
Speaker 1: my case. Oh well, well, what if my sludge is
Speaker 1: like a witch sort like and it's like being wrongfully
Speaker 1: persecuted and really it's just it's suckers. Oh, today's gonna
Speaker 1: be fun. Uh So we hadized movies using the Bechtel test,
Speaker 1: which I think we will. We brought up the mail
Speaker 1: identifying sledge. A lot of it passed. Yes, uh so
Speaker 1: used the Bechtel Test sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test,
Speaker 1: as a jumping off point for discussion, and the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test has has a couple of different requirements. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: requires that there'll be two female identifying characters with names.
Speaker 1: We'll talk to each other about something other than a
Speaker 1: man or a male sledge, of course, for more than
Speaker 1: two lines of dialogue. Incredible. It's almost like with all
Speaker 1: those steps, it's almost like it's like a spell in
Speaker 1: a spell book it's true, or a curse stories curse.
Speaker 1: I wonder how many times it's been said in movies.
Speaker 1: It has to be a lout there like it's a
Speaker 1: spell or of course, I feel like there's like a
Speaker 1: lot of Halloween time d cooms that probably used that.
Speaker 1: While we're talking about Practical Magic today, it's been a
Speaker 1: long request. Yeah, it's just the two of us today.
Speaker 1: We're keeping it loose, so let's get into it. What's
Speaker 1: your history with the film, Jamie So I first saw
Speaker 1: Practical Magic in Lansing, Michigan last year as a part
Speaker 1: of the Capital City Film Festival. Is a show called
Speaker 1: Destroy All Cinema, and I was riffing live riffs. You'll
Speaker 1: love to hear him on Practical Magic. What I try
Speaker 1: hadn't seen with a comedy collective based out of Lansing
Speaker 1: called Comedy Coven, So if you live in that area,
Speaker 1: please check them out. So Coven of Witches perhaps exactly.
Speaker 1: It consists of Tricia Chamberlain, Stephanie ander Chan, and Emily Surgett.
Speaker 1: They're all great. But so I first saw it in
Speaker 1: a live capacity, and it was kind of fun to
Speaker 1: try to piece together this movie in real time and
Speaker 1: try to be funny because I was just like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what's happening. Um, And then I've seen a
Speaker 1: couple of times to prep for this, but pretty short history. Okay,
Speaker 1: what's your history with Practical Magic. This is one of
Speaker 1: those movies that I wasn't very familiar with throughout most
Speaker 1: of my life, but I knew that it was something
Speaker 1: that we were getting requested all the time from listeners.
Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, I should check this out
Speaker 1: because eventually I'm sure we'll do an episode on it.
Speaker 1: So I watched it probably for the first time, I
Speaker 1: would say, like around a year ago. Also, and glad,
Speaker 1: I did you know? It's a fun movie. It is
Speaker 1: a weird movie. Weird it's structurally a bit confusing, but
Speaker 1: I also do get why people love it, So yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. I think if I had um seen it
Speaker 1: as a younger person, I would have like a much
Speaker 1: stronger attachment to it and a pretty iconic cast as well.
Speaker 1: Like it's quality regardless, getting to see Sandra bl Like
Speaker 1: and Nicole Kidman as sisters, rules, Diane Weest is their
Speaker 1: Stockard Channing is there, and a young Evan Rachel would
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, one of the daughters, So there is
Speaker 1: I mean there. I get it's a very confusing movie,
Speaker 1: but everyone is committed a hundred percent, and so we
Speaker 1: simply have no choice but to stand. Um, yeah, should
Speaker 1: we get into it? I mean, I don't know what
Speaker 1: was your actually I am curious what was your interest
Speaker 1: in witchy culture and stuff like that when you were younger?
Speaker 1: Were you really interested in it? No? Not, not, I
Speaker 1: would say at all. Um, I wasn't like I hate
Speaker 1: it and I think it's stupid or anything like that.
Speaker 1: It just isn't something that ever piqued my interest. Well,
Speaker 1: what about you? I thought I was a witch until
Speaker 1: I was about eleven years old, and not a Harry Potter,
Speaker 1: which as all listeners at the podcast, will know I
Speaker 1: was not a Harry Potter stand. As a child, I
Speaker 1: thought I was like a practical magic kind of which
Speaker 1: because I had I have two relatives who run a
Speaker 1: new Age shop in Massachusetts, I was very steeped in
Speaker 1: it's from a very young age, kind of like the
Speaker 1: one that Sally runs in the movie. Yeah, yeah, except
Speaker 1: like I mean even more so, but it was they
Speaker 1: do not work there anymore, but yeah, like my my
Speaker 1: aunt and uncle worked at a new Age shop and
Speaker 1: would do readings and would do and you know, we're
Speaker 1: very nurture. I think it's weird because I grew up
Speaker 1: going to church, but I think that like new Age
Speaker 1: stuff was what appealed to me more in terms of
Speaker 1: like religion and like shaping my self identity. But I
Speaker 1: really love it. And it's funny because I think that
Speaker 1: this movie is kind of peak, like scratching the surface
Speaker 1: of that culture in kind of a very basic way
Speaker 1: that I think probably would have been appealing to me
Speaker 1: had I seen it at the time. But yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: always just any time that there's a movie with which
Speaker 1: is I'm like, oh yes, because my mom fully was like,
Speaker 1: you're a witch, you have powers? It was like, yes,
Speaker 1: that's so cool. Yeah, it was cool. The growing I'm
Speaker 1: thinking you're a witch. I can't recommend it enough. It
Speaker 1: is very fun. My like family because I was effectively
Speaker 1: raised as an atheist, Like it was a completely secular household,
Speaker 1: so I had no religion growing up, and I think
Speaker 1: because of that, I just nothing like supernatural or like
Speaker 1: mystic or magical or anything like that really appealed to me.
Speaker 1: Is something that I would want to, like embrace is
Speaker 1: anything other than fiction, Like I love reading fiction about it.
Speaker 1: But I wasn't like I was like this is going
Speaker 1: to be a part of my lifestyle or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Totally I would appealed about it to me as a kid, especially,
Speaker 1: was like I didn't like going to tread like it
Speaker 1: was weird. I think that like we just went because
Speaker 1: my parents were like, we're supposed to do that. But
Speaker 1: like I went to Catholic churches for a little while,
Speaker 1: I went to like a Congregational church for a little while.
Speaker 1: I mean my parents and my oun uncle called it paganism.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this technically even falls under that umbrella,
Speaker 1: but what appealed to me and what appealed to me
Speaker 1: about witchy culture was that it was the only like
Speaker 1: semi religious structure that empowered you a little bit and
Speaker 1: gave you some control as opposed to the shame and
Speaker 1: the constant asking for forgiveness that from the other religions
Speaker 1: that I had experienced, where like this was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it's like, uh, you know, you're being empowered to you know,
Speaker 1: whether you're casting spells or doing rituals or whatever. It
Speaker 1: is like you have some ability to cause change and
Speaker 1: make things happen. Interesting. So there's a whole discussion to
Speaker 1: be had kind of about which is witchcraft the history
Speaker 1: there in all that, Yeah, we can, We'll get there,
Speaker 1: but for now, let's discuss the story it recap Okay,
Speaker 1: So we begin learning that women in the Owens family
Speaker 1: are witches and they have magical powers. The first of
Speaker 1: them was their ancestor Maria from colonial Puritan times, Yes,
Speaker 1: and she was banished on an island with her unborn
Speaker 1: child for being a witch. And she stayed there waiting
Speaker 1: for her lover to come rescue her, but he never came,
Speaker 1: so she cast a spell that she would never again
Speaker 1: feel the agony of love, which eventually turned into a
Speaker 1: curse on any man who would love an Owens woman,
Speaker 1: and that curse will kill them, and it will straight
Speaker 1: up kill them. Then we meet to Owen's sisters as children,
Speaker 1: Sally and Alien. Their father died because of this curse.
Speaker 1: There's like this beetle that comes around and makes this
Speaker 1: like chirping sound, and that's how you know the man
Speaker 1: is going to die soon, right. I love that plot device.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like a beetle or something. And
Speaker 1: then their mom dies I guess shortly after that of
Speaker 1: a broken heart. So the two sisters go to live
Speaker 1: with their two aunts, Franny that's Stockard Channing's character, and
Speaker 1: Jet Diane Weest and their aunts are also witches who
Speaker 1: teach them magic. They live somewhere in New England. I
Speaker 1: was guessing either they I think they live on an island.
Speaker 1: I think that they might live like on Nantucket. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what I was thinking. It gives it has given
Speaker 1: me some Nantucket vibes. Yeah, I would say Nantucket or
Speaker 1: Martha's vineyards. Yeah, surprise it didn't take place in like Salem,
Speaker 1: but who knows you, I don't know. And everyone in
Speaker 1: the town hates the whole family for being witches, which
Speaker 1: which you're a bit. You're like, let's punch that up,
Speaker 1: all right? There? Does it pass the back to test?
Speaker 1: Though maybe it does, But I was just like, man,
Speaker 1: there are three writers on this movie, and we couldn't
Speaker 1: we can't do better than which, which you're a bit.
Speaker 1: The kids are like not smart enough to come up
Speaker 1: with something more clever. Kids are geniuses. Sorry, there should
Speaker 1: have been in Shakespearean pros there i ambic pentameter. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: So we get to know the two girls a little
Speaker 1: bit better. Jilly can't wait to fall in love, but
Speaker 1: Sally says she hopes she never falls in love because
Speaker 1: she sees how much agony it causes people. So Sally
Speaker 1: casts a spell, a love spell about a man who
Speaker 1: she thinks will never exist, because if he doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: she won't have to fall in love with him, and
Speaker 1: then he won't die, um, and she won't have to
Speaker 1: deal with a broken heart. Right. This imaginary man can
Speaker 1: flip pancakes. His favorite shape is a star, and he
Speaker 1: has one green eye and one blue eye, which is like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like there are people out there
Speaker 1: like that, Like I think it's kind of a low yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, I guess that finding some with two
Speaker 1: different colored eyes is a little more difficult. But I'm like,
Speaker 1: pant likes pancakes and stars. That's like you're describing a
Speaker 1: five year old like, but sure, yes. So then we
Speaker 1: cut to the sisters as adults. Sally is Sandra Bullock,
Speaker 1: Jilly is Nicole Kidman, and Jilly runs away with this
Speaker 1: guy that she's in love with Nicole Kidmen. In terms
Speaker 1: of having her Australian accent not out, it's so different
Speaker 1: from movie to movie to the point where I'm like,
Speaker 1: is it like it depends on how she's being directed,
Speaker 1: But it's like it's like sort of at Bay. Really
Speaker 1: I wasn't noticing that. But also there's certain I don't know.
Speaker 1: I guess my Nicole Kidman meter is very sensitive because
Speaker 1: sometimes I'm just like, how did you come on? There's
Speaker 1: a few but whatever, I mean, you do watch a
Speaker 1: lot of big little eyes, so that makes sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and she, you know, at the end of the
Speaker 1: first season, for some reason, she's just like, I'm Australian,
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, we know, but you're not
Speaker 1: supposed to be right now where we'll have a talk
Speaker 1: about it. So Julie runs away with this guy, but
Speaker 1: meanwhile Sally wants to have like kind of a more
Speaker 1: like grounded quote normal life, like the nuclear family. Yes,
Speaker 1: and then Sally spots this guy, Michael, and she and
Speaker 1: him suddenly fall in love, almost as if a spell
Speaker 1: were cast on as it we don't know. And then
Speaker 1: they start kissing in the street. A Faith Hill song
Speaker 1: is playing. Is it? It's this kiss? Yes, this kiss
Speaker 1: one of the many moments this movie is totally all over.
Speaker 1: It's just completely totally inconsistent to the where you're just
Speaker 1: like constantly suffering from whiplash from the previous scene. Faith Hill,
Speaker 1: I think, is one of the first, all best, second
Speaker 1: of all, most jarring from all the South, Like this
Speaker 1: is supposed to be like kind of like a you know,
Speaker 1: like you kind of expected more Fiona Appoly song there,
Speaker 1: like at least like an artist with some more mysterious
Speaker 1: witchy vibes. Oh sure, I wouldn't describe faith Hill as
Speaker 1: that artist. Well, especially because like if you hear country
Speaker 1: music like that, it conjures up the South, you know,
Speaker 1: the American South and not New England. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: was it was choices were made. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: think it's a bad choice, that it a weird choice,
Speaker 1: but I do like it. As with most things in
Speaker 1: this movie, you're like sure. So cut to a few
Speaker 1: years later, Sally and Michael are married. They have two daughters, hers,
Speaker 1: but that death beetle starts coming around and starts chirping
Speaker 1: a little bit outside. Sorry, I don't effects. What if
Speaker 1: beetle juice can turn into a beetle and then it's
Speaker 1: the same. What if beetle juice in practical magic take
Speaker 1: place in the same extended universe? I would buy it.
Speaker 1: I would. I wish that the faith Hill song played
Speaker 1: during beetle Juice? This what another faith Hill song? I
Speaker 1: can't name a second one. I don't know nothing against her.
Speaker 1: I just wasn't really there, sure you know, I just
Speaker 1: know that one. Okay, So the beetles chirping, and Sally's
Speaker 1: husband gets hit by a truck and dies in a
Speaker 1: very dramatic the fruit flying in that scene because he's
Speaker 1: a fruit salesman and slow mo fruit. And then we're like,
Speaker 1: oh no, her love kill to him because women's emotions
Speaker 1: are lethal. Ah God, Well, anyways, fruitgo's lion? Yes, bye
Speaker 1: bye yep. So then Sally goes to her aunt's and
Speaker 1: she's like, this curse is real and it's why my
Speaker 1: husband died. And then they revealed that they had cast
Speaker 1: a spell on the two of them to make them
Speaker 1: fall in love, and she's like even more furious, and
Speaker 1: she tells them to bring him back from the dead,
Speaker 1: because their witches, they have the ability to do that,
Speaker 1: but they refuse because if they do that, he'll come
Speaker 1: back all dark and unnatural. So Sally just has to
Speaker 1: accept what has happened, and she is grieving, and then
Speaker 1: she decides to stop doing magic. Meanwhile, Jilly has been
Speaker 1: traveling around. She's partying, she's meeting a bunch of people.
Speaker 1: She's got a wig on and a classic kidman wig.
Speaker 1: I've had a shout out I have. Well, I'll do
Speaker 1: it in a second. But there was recently a power
Speaker 1: ranking of all of Nicole Kimman's wigs. She was not
Speaker 1: wearing a wig in a movie. May not know what
Speaker 1: her hair is. I thought that was I just thought
Speaker 1: that was her natural hair in this movie. I they're
Speaker 1: on the wig ranking. I mean, and I'm just using this, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've visited this a few days ago. Uh, this is
Speaker 1: from ques dot com by Singia sing kurts Um, and
Speaker 1: it's a ranking of all of her wigs. Based on
Speaker 1: this list, it does seem like she is usually wearing
Speaker 1: a wig, even when it seems like she's not, including
Speaker 1: in Um, like I thought that was her natural hair
Speaker 1: in Mulin Rouge. Apparently it is not. It is a wig.
Speaker 1: So I just go off the assumption that Nicole Kimman
Speaker 1: is always wearing a wig. What if she is bald underneath,
Speaker 1: making her the baldest woman in charge? That would explain
Speaker 1: so much, really, sure Wood, we can't. But anyways, she's
Speaker 1: got she's got intense nineties banks and I love it
Speaker 1: in this movie definitely, And I think right now she's
Speaker 1: in Arizona with this guy, Jimmy Angel Love Sure, who
Speaker 1: turns out to be abusive. So Sally goes to rescue
Speaker 1: Jilly from him, but he kidnaps them both and holds
Speaker 1: them hostage. So they drug him but accidentally overdose and
Speaker 1: kill him, and they're like, oh my god, what are
Speaker 1: we gonna do. We're going to go to jail. The
Speaker 1: cops won't believe it's self defense, so Jilly has the
Speaker 1: idea that they cast the spell on him to bring
Speaker 1: him back to life, and since he's already dark and unnatural,
Speaker 1: they figure it won't matter, right, so they go back
Speaker 1: to the aunt's house. They do the spell, they put
Speaker 1: the line in the coconut, etcetera. Sure that happens, right then? Yeah? Um?
Speaker 1: And then he comes back, but he is aggressive and
Speaker 1: he starts choking Jilly, so they knock him out and
Speaker 1: then they bury him in the backyard. But they decide
Speaker 1: not to tell the aunts, right, but Jimmy's spirit starts
Speaker 1: haunting them and he ruins their midnight margarite a night. Rude, Rude.
Speaker 1: They got one of the most the most iconic scene
Speaker 1: of this movie and the most totally dissonant, I think,
Speaker 1: because there are children upstairs and they are screaming, screaming,
Speaker 1: and then they're immediately sober. And in one moment they're
Speaker 1: like laughing and dancing and having a good time, and
Speaker 1: then the next moment they're like calling each other like
Speaker 1: sluts and witches. And then the next scene requires for
Speaker 1: them to be stone cold sober, even though we just
Speaker 1: saw them being fully blackout drunk. You know, it's just
Speaker 1: it is what it is. We just have to we
Speaker 1: just have to buy it their witches they can they
Speaker 1: have to spell the sober or is it a curse? Oh?
Speaker 1: It keeps getting me. It's funny, Okay. So then this
Speaker 1: guy Gary shows up. He is a detective investigating the
Speaker 1: disappearance of Jimmy Angelo, and Sally gets flustered and accidentally
Speaker 1: tells him that Jimmy kidnapped Jilly. But they got away
Speaker 1: using his car because they like have his car, and
Speaker 1: he's like, why is his car in your driveway? And
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, yeah, sloop sees. But they're like, but
Speaker 1: we don't know where he is. So Gary keeps hanging
Speaker 1: around town. He's trying to gather information. And then Sally's
Speaker 1: daughters find Sally's spell book or curse book, and they
Speaker 1: find that the spell of the made up man that
Speaker 1: she made when she was little, like the guy who
Speaker 1: has the eyes and the pancakes and the stars, and
Speaker 1: they start to realize that Gary has all of those
Speaker 1: traits that she described in the spell curse. They're like, wait, Gary,
Speaker 1: do you like pancakes? They're like, oh my god, it's
Speaker 1: that he can flip them. You're right, he doesn't even
Speaker 1: like them. We just can flip them. He knows him
Speaker 1: away once he slipped Gary god honestly setting a pretty
Speaker 1: low bar for for the dream man, but sure. And
Speaker 1: then Gary finds Jimmy's ring because a frog barth sit up,
Speaker 1: which he loved to see. Good practical effect, practical magic,
Speaker 1: look at that little cinema knowledge. And then he's like,
Speaker 1: you ladies are in big trouble. You better get a lawyer.
Speaker 1: And then Sally decides to tell him the truth, which
Speaker 1: she sort of does, except that she's like speaking in riddles,
Speaker 1: and then they start kissing, and then she notices that
Speaker 1: he has one green eye and one blue eye and
Speaker 1: she's like, no, I can't. And then Jimmy's spirit shows
Speaker 1: up and Gary is like, what the funk is happening?
Speaker 1: And then the sisters kill the spirit, or at least
Speaker 1: they think they do, and then Sally tells Gary that
Speaker 1: she had cast this spell when she was a little girl,
Speaker 1: and she's like, that's why you're here and we'll never
Speaker 1: know if this is even true love or if it's
Speaker 1: just this spell curse thing, and he's like, I don't
Speaker 1: believe in curses. I wished for you too, and we're like,
Speaker 1: oh my, goh, Mike. But then we find out that
Speaker 1: Jimmy's spirit is still around and has possessed jillyhoo Sees.
Speaker 1: So they need a coven of twelve women to banish
Speaker 1: this spirit. So Sally, who has been made like the
Speaker 1: top of the call tree at her daughter's school because
Speaker 1: Jilly cast a spell to make her that, So she
Speaker 1: called all the moms from her daughter's school to come
Speaker 1: help and be a part of this coven. And together
Speaker 1: they exercise Jilly and kill Jimmy's ghost and sweep his
Speaker 1: dust out of the house because women be cleaning, be sweeping,
Speaker 1: but also which imagery brooms. And then Sally and Gary
Speaker 1: kiss because Gary comes back, and then Fun and then
Speaker 1: they fly off the roof because it's Halloween. And that
Speaker 1: is the story. So let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back.
Speaker 1: Welcome back. Oh boy, there's there's a lot to discuss,
Speaker 1: as per huge. So, I mean, something that I wanted
Speaker 1: to just sort of get out there right at the
Speaker 1: jump is the this movie is an extremely white movie,
Speaker 1: as our most movies still, but particularly I mean in
Speaker 1: the late nineties. This is very very typical. But I
Speaker 1: think it is kind of especially glaring when you're tackling
Speaker 1: the subject of witches and being kind of mothered for
Speaker 1: for that, because just historically is worth mentioning that women
Speaker 1: of color, and specifically black women have been mothered and
Speaker 1: accused of being which is just as much as white women.
Speaker 1: But as is normal with American history, the struggle of
Speaker 1: women of color with the exact same issues compounded with race,
Speaker 1: are kind of generally erased from the narrative. And I
Speaker 1: think that we see that in virtually every story about
Speaker 1: the Salem witch Trials too, Like, there were also black
Speaker 1: women were killed and demonized during the witch trials, and
Speaker 1: yet most of the narratives that we see you're focused
Speaker 1: on white ladies. So um, so yeah, I just wanted
Speaker 1: to mention that right at the jump of Like, I
Speaker 1: love which representation, but it is just not extended to
Speaker 1: women who are not white in American movies very often.
Speaker 1: Even I mean, I think that our other main witchy
Speaker 1: movie we've covered, The Craft, one of the witches in
Speaker 1: that movie is black, but she's criminally underwritten and just
Speaker 1: done a disservice by the movie as a whole, and
Speaker 1: the focus is always on the white girls. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've kind of revisited these late nineties classic mistakes over
Speaker 1: and over, but this movie is certainly guilty of it
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, another thing, and this is less of
Speaker 1: a kind of historical erasure thing and more of just
Speaker 1: like I suppose, metaphorical or just sort of like a
Speaker 1: thing that happens in the narrative. But so the Owens
Speaker 1: women are, they're always mothered right by the community who
Speaker 1: has cast them out and called them witches and bitches um.
Speaker 1: And then there's a moment towards the end as Sally
Speaker 1: is like calling the phone tree and she's like, hey,
Speaker 1: you know that thing that everyone's been whispering about me
Speaker 1: about how I'm a witch? Well it's true. So she
Speaker 1: effectively comes out. And then a scene right after that
Speaker 1: is like her colleague at like the like which shop
Speaker 1: that she runs, Uh, that character is like did you
Speaker 1: hear Sally just came out? Which of course is language
Speaker 1: used for queer like that, And so it's like taking
Speaker 1: the like borrowing or maybe even appropriating this experience that
Speaker 1: we thrust upon queer people, a burden that we put
Speaker 1: upon them because of how heteronormative society is. And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: if you don't. If you are not hetero, then it
Speaker 1: is your burden responsibility to come out. And then to
Speaker 1: ascribe that to what Sally is doing I thought was
Speaker 1: peculiar at it was just another bizarro misguided like what
Speaker 1: was the objective of this scene? So yeah, that those
Speaker 1: are a couple of things right off right at the top,
Speaker 1: that we're not the best choices to be made. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's yeah, there's definitely a lot of issues. What
Speaker 1: is What did you like about this movie? What did
Speaker 1: you feel this movie did well? Well, there's a fair
Speaker 1: amount because it is a predominantly female cast. There it
Speaker 1: is largely about women, at least of the characters that
Speaker 1: we get to know the most supporting each other. They
Speaker 1: do not have the support of their community until the
Speaker 1: very end. But even that's nice when like the moms
Speaker 1: who have been like you know, making snide comments and
Speaker 1: casting them out of the community. Uh, they even come
Speaker 1: to help a woman in need. So I like that
Speaker 1: it's largely about like women supporting women, says the supporting sisters. Um,
Speaker 1: there's three generations of sisters and which is cool. Cool,
Speaker 1: they're all living together, they're all practicing, you know, witchcraft.
Speaker 1: I like that they also make mistakes. It's not like
Speaker 1: the like the perfect female friendships that we sort of
Speaker 1: see in movies where they're like, you know, women can
Speaker 1: only be friends and connected if they do it perfectly,
Speaker 1: which is a trope that drives me insane. And I mean,
Speaker 1: every every woman in this movie is human, right as
Speaker 1: well as being a witch u and and makes mistakes
Speaker 1: that the aunts make the well intentioned mistake of being like,
Speaker 1: but we wanted you to have love in your life
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, now my husband is dead, and
Speaker 1: where where's this scene where Sandra Bullock is staring at
Speaker 1: her husband's grave Because I miss you so fucking much.
Speaker 1: We should do another episode on the Rock. I feel
Speaker 1: like with the benefit of you know, year and from like,
Speaker 1: I think, I think there's more to say that I
Speaker 1: missed you so much. But then it was like the
Speaker 1: the inverse of um like these like perfect female friendships
Speaker 1: and relationships is something else we see that's very troubling movies,
Speaker 1: which is women hating each other for no real irrationally.
Speaker 1: And neither of those things happened in this movie, right,
Speaker 1: which is great, and I especially do I mean, and
Speaker 1: there are problematique things that happen inside of this relationship.
Speaker 1: But I do like the relationship between Sally and Julie.
Speaker 1: I like that they're very different, but the I don't know,
Speaker 1: just even like the little touch of like they can feel,
Speaker 1: they can instinctively know when the other person is in trouble,
Speaker 1: especially when Jilly, even though they have like their differences
Speaker 1: in conflicts that um Sally is Julie's first call when
Speaker 1: she is being abused was a moment that I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's like a real you know, like that was, Oh,
Speaker 1: that that's like a beautiful sister thing that actually felt
Speaker 1: in a movie that does not feel grounded in reality
Speaker 1: at all, like a more grounded good moment. And and
Speaker 1: I know that it's like, you know, we're not endorsing
Speaker 1: murder here, but the fact that you know, their bond
Speaker 1: is so strong and Sally generally, I mean, she believes
Speaker 1: Julie like they it's Sally's annoyed that Jillie's in this predicament,
Speaker 1: which I don't think it's necessarily fair, but she is
Speaker 1: also like, I obviously believe you, and uh, if we
Speaker 1: got to kill this guy, we gotta kill this guy,
Speaker 1: you know, which you know that there's not a one
Speaker 1: to one application in the real world. But I do
Speaker 1: like that, like intense loyalty and trust and belief of
Speaker 1: each other for sure, that they even make a pact
Speaker 1: that like they must die at the same time, like
Speaker 1: if one of them it's going to die, it's gonna die.
Speaker 1: I love childhood pats and the people who take them seriously.
Speaker 1: Like my me and my two cousins were so so
Speaker 1: we all thought we were witches. This was like in
Speaker 1: the same time, and we made a pact we were
Speaker 1: like between ten and twelve where we were like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if we get married someday we have the other, we
Speaker 1: won't choose a maid of honor. Both of you will
Speaker 1: be my maids of honor. And then they're keeping that promise,
Speaker 1: which I'm like, oh, that's so It's so nice and
Speaker 1: it makes me cry to think about. But I'm also like,
Speaker 1: we were stupid. Do whatever you want. And also being
Speaker 1: a maid of honor is really hard. I don't want
Speaker 1: to do it twice. But you know, here we are,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Just the closeness that they show,
Speaker 1: and I mean I was even getting some someon Louise
Speaker 1: vibes from this movie. But it's it's like just because
Speaker 1: it was our redhead and brunette with an inseparable blond. No,
Speaker 1: because they kill a man, they oh, that's true, and
Speaker 1: they have to They think about going to the police,
Speaker 1: but they're like, the police won't believe us, because police
Speaker 1: often do not believe women if they're being you know,
Speaker 1: if they're victims of assault or anything like that. But
Speaker 1: this movie is if Thelma and Louise were witches and
Speaker 1: which Susan and Susan Sarandon falls in love with the
Speaker 1: Harvey Kitel character, So I thought that was very true funny.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean they kill they kill an abuser. Uh,
Speaker 1: they contemplate going to the police, saying it was self defense.
Speaker 1: They know they won't be believed, so they have to
Speaker 1: take matters into their own hands. And that's pretty much
Speaker 1: what Louise. That's true, and it's and you know, maybe
Speaker 1: this movie is a little less gracefully written, but but
Speaker 1: all the main points were there this movie. This is
Speaker 1: also like kind of unrelated, but this movie is directed
Speaker 1: by Joan Didion's nephew, So if not feminist icon, feminist
Speaker 1: icon adjacent to be sure. Griffin done, Griffin done, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it was written by let's see screenwriters were Robin's Swygert. Yes,
Speaker 1: Robin Swygert is very cool. She has written a lot
Speaker 1: of iconic movies including Little Women, which will be covering
Speaker 1: on the cast soon, Matilda, The Jane Austen Book Club,
Speaker 1: and she wrote she helped. She was one of the
Speaker 1: credited writers on Memoirs of a Geisha and Curious Case
Speaker 1: of Benjamin Button. She's written a lot interesting um. She
Speaker 1: was one of the writers, as was Akiva Goldsman. I
Speaker 1: don't really know her background. His background he wrote Batman
Speaker 1: Forever Batman and Robin I Robot I am Legend Cinderella Man,
Speaker 1: so this is kind of an outlier in his catalog.
Speaker 1: And then the final writer was Adam Brooks. Adam Brooks
Speaker 1: has credits including Wimbledon, Bridget Jones, The Edge of Reason, Okay,
Speaker 1: go Off King. So it's written co written by two men,
Speaker 1: one woman, but it's based on a novel by a woman,
Speaker 1: Alice Hoffman, who is an icon in that she lives
Speaker 1: in Boston. Yes, I saw a lot of signed. Alice
Speaker 1: Hoffman's locally swish, but she's she's a She's written a
Speaker 1: lot of popular books I don't. I don't really know.
Speaker 1: I mean, I would be curious to see to know
Speaker 1: how this strays from the from the book, but I'm
Speaker 1: not sure. Yeah, I have not read, as per usual
Speaker 1: book podcast, haven't read a book, so so sorry. But
Speaker 1: if you do have insight, um, feel free to offer
Speaker 1: it in the comments. Um. And if you've read a book,
Speaker 1: feel free to just tweet at us and brag about it,
Speaker 1: because it ain't easy. Who has the talks are long?
Speaker 1: I fall asleep. So yeah, I mean, other things to
Speaker 1: like about this movie I think are that. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just largely a story about women supporting
Speaker 1: each other. Because as you as you you know already
Speaker 1: pointed out, it's Sally helping Jilly with her abusive boyfriend.
Speaker 1: Like it's just no questions asked, She just like drops everything,
Speaker 1: gets on the next flight and us to help her. Uh.
Speaker 1: Then we see the scene where Jilly learns that Sally
Speaker 1: has never picked at the top of the phone tree
Speaker 1: chain thing at her daughter's school, and she goes and
Speaker 1: cast that spell that so that she's at the top.
Speaker 1: It's very very lovely, like the portrayal of motherhood I
Speaker 1: thought was lovely and or you know, just female gradianship
Speaker 1: in general, because we're talking about the aunts, um, the sisters.
Speaker 1: The sisterhood is I love. I do love in in
Speaker 1: movies when two women band together to kill a predator,
Speaker 1: it is very cathartic and fun to watch, especially when
Speaker 1: it's a frosty tipped loser like Jimmy Angel Love he
Speaker 1: was full spiritually had frosty tips, though he definitely spiritually
Speaker 1: had them. I also like that, Um, they were very different,
Speaker 1: as you already said. Also like they had very different lifestyles,
Speaker 1: like just it's all about like going on and fucking
Speaker 1: a bunch of people, it seems, whereas Sally wanted the
Speaker 1: more kind of traditional nuclear family unit lifestyle. But like
Speaker 1: neither of them ever judged the other for the they wanted.
Speaker 1: There were some like light teasing, which feels kind of
Speaker 1: on par for how sisters treat each other, but like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it did feel like there wasn't really a value judgment
Speaker 1: placed on either of them, even by the movie on
Speaker 1: like this is just how this character is chosen to live,
Speaker 1: and both of them. And it's also like because I
Speaker 1: you know, like a red flag that I would immediately
Speaker 1: assume because they are kind of as I love that
Speaker 1: they're different, but they're you know, they're written kind of
Speaker 1: like trophy different, Like this is the fun one and
Speaker 1: this is the one that wants the family, Like it's
Speaker 1: basically like the Charlotte and the Samantha, right, which but
Speaker 1: but but I feel like what would normally happen which
Speaker 1: doesn't here? Which is great? Is that um, the fun
Speaker 1: one quote unquote is either mocked or punished in some
Speaker 1: way for being you know, like sexually active, which is
Speaker 1: like such a you know, age old trope. But they both,
Speaker 1: I mean, they both get into pretty deep ship and
Speaker 1: like it. I don't think that necessarily one of them
Speaker 1: is more screwed over than the other because you know,
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman, although it is she's the one that ends
Speaker 1: up I think the only difference is the men that
Speaker 1: they end up with, at least briefly. Um is that
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidmen, the sexually active independent uh you know, left
Speaker 1: her hometown one is the one that ends up in
Speaker 1: a relationship with an abuser, whereas Sally, who wants the
Speaker 1: nuclear family, ended up with a sweet pie who loved
Speaker 1: her but then was hit by a truck because she
Speaker 1: loved him too. Much right, But then also like because
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman's character ends up with this abuser who they
Speaker 1: then kill and then she doesn't like get another guy
Speaker 1: at the end, which is great, Yeah, but which is great,
Speaker 1: But I feel like that's almost maybe like nineties narratives
Speaker 1: kind of punishing her, maybe arguably for like you mess
Speaker 1: you had a shot and you messed it up. But
Speaker 1: this this nice lady, she had a husband and yes
Speaker 1: he died because the Beatle was there. But also then
Speaker 1: he gets she gets to fall she gets to fall
Speaker 1: in love with this other guy. Yeah, that would say.
Speaker 1: So that's like, yeah, I totally see what you're saying.
Speaker 1: And the fact that Sandra Bullock gets to date two
Speaker 1: great guys and Nicole Kipman gets one horrible abuser um
Speaker 1: is kind of like and it's like to the point
Speaker 1: where you're like, I don't even know that the writers
Speaker 1: were consciously making that value judgment, but it does sort
Speaker 1: of when you're in over analysis moment, you're like, the
Speaker 1: optics aren't great, and of course, like you and I
Speaker 1: don't see like a woman getting a relationship as a
Speaker 1: reward the way that like a lot of narratives but
Speaker 1: this but this narrative does see first as a reward.
Speaker 1: Every movie considers hetero relationship between two boring people the best,
Speaker 1: the best, the us that you can expect from life.
Speaker 1: Um so yeah. And and it also you know, like
Speaker 1: people in who desire a nuclear family, it's not like
Speaker 1: they don't sometimes end up in abusive relationships, and you know,
Speaker 1: reinforcing the idea that every nuclear family is impervious to
Speaker 1: abuse and conflict. It's a dairy Hollywood narrative that you're fed.
Speaker 1: Um so, yes, maybe we are over analyzing it a
Speaker 1: little bit, but it's how we feel. That's our job. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's our job. That's how that's why you pay zero
Speaker 1: dollars to listen to this. Okay, we've gotta take a
Speaker 1: quick break, but let's come back soon, shall we. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's great, and we're back. Well, I can't believe you
Speaker 1: cast so many spells? Or were they curses? During that
Speaker 1: that break? They were curses? I liked, all right, what
Speaker 1: would you like to discuss next? Kind of continue? Do
Speaker 1: me a little bit off of the romantic interests that
Speaker 1: the movie has for the characters. I feel, and I
Speaker 1: say this a lot, but here we go again. I
Speaker 1: feel that the romantic storyline between Sandra Bullocks character Sally
Speaker 1: and Aidan Quinn Gary is not necessary and probably didn't
Speaker 1: need to be in the movie. My guess is this
Speaker 1: is a studio notes relationship, or I feel I wouldn't
Speaker 1: be surprised if it was in the original the novel
Speaker 1: and it was just adapted that way. I hard to say.
Speaker 1: We can't make that call at all, having not read,
Speaker 1: but either way, I would have liked the story a
Speaker 1: bit better if it had just been two women having
Speaker 1: to deal with this abuser. They kill him accidentally. Again,
Speaker 1: we don't endorse murder on the Bectel cast. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: this is a it's a movie, but it's a movie,
Speaker 1: and so killing in the movie, right, they have to
Speaker 1: deal with the aftermath of that. I think that could
Speaker 1: have been handled just as well and effectively had there
Speaker 1: not been this romantic storyline wedged in, because that ends
Speaker 1: up being a weird thing where he stops doing his
Speaker 1: job as a criminal investigator because if this spell curse
Speaker 1: that she's cast and he's like, yeah, we've ruled his
Speaker 1: death as an accident, and we we don't know this
Speaker 1: body is not anywhere. We never found the body. We
Speaker 1: don't know what happened, but my job as a criminal investigator,
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna put that on the back burner. Just
Speaker 1: with this woman, it does feel like and like his
Speaker 1: character Ultimately, it feels like an attempt at raising steaks
Speaker 1: because he's brought in a like oh no, now there's
Speaker 1: someone on their tail. But yeah, he's kind of like
Speaker 1: the way his character is treated as like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: you don't get the feeling that if he finds out,
Speaker 1: he's going to be like, you're going to jail. Like
Speaker 1: it doesn't really heighten the stakes that much. Is just
Speaker 1: for me, it was like just a distraction of like
Speaker 1: I guess aid and Quinn is here or whatever. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I wasn't a big fan of that either.
Speaker 1: I thought that, you know, I would have liked a
Speaker 1: little more of maybe the daughters there was other use
Speaker 1: of that real estate or that the aunts can do something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the fact him being there is an obstacle, fine, But
Speaker 1: the fact that then he and Sally end up in
Speaker 1: a relationship, uh didn't work for me. And he was
Speaker 1: never even like a particularly like he just doesn't because
Speaker 1: he's immediately like there's there's like chemistry between them you're like,
Speaker 1: he doesn't seem like a particularly like difficult obstacle, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know, right. Um. The fact also that one
Speaker 1: of the huge vehicles that like drives this whole narrative
Speaker 1: is the idea of like romantic love and it's like,
Speaker 1: so it's in love with who, who's in a relationship?
Speaker 1: How does that affect our lives? Like, so let's talk
Speaker 1: about that too, because that was like one of the
Speaker 1: things on on this rewatch where you're like, we really
Speaker 1: only with some exceptions, like there's a little spell that
Speaker 1: she does at the school. There's like small little plot
Speaker 1: spells that we see that we're like, oh, that's she's
Speaker 1: stirring her coffee with magic, like basic kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: They You're like, Okay, they can move things with their minds,
Speaker 1: that's cool, But you really only ever see their magic
Speaker 1: in practice as it is related to men um and
Speaker 1: as it is related to their like different relationships. And
Speaker 1: I think that that is like another thing that you're
Speaker 1: just like like there, you know, I would have liked
Speaker 1: to see, like what can they actually do outside of
Speaker 1: navigating around this curse that I think is also inherently
Speaker 1: like there's something did in there too, where the concept
Speaker 1: of the curses you know, any man or is it
Speaker 1: a spell though it's a curse, it's always a curse.
Speaker 1: But the idea that you know, all men who ever
Speaker 1: love these women will die just sort of you know,
Speaker 1: like goes into that uh sort of nasty trope that
Speaker 1: just means like women's emotions are somehow a dangerous thing
Speaker 1: and that um, treating a woman kindly and and like
Speaker 1: loving a woman properly is somehow dooming you like it
Speaker 1: does sort of tie into and I feel like doesn't
Speaker 1: isn't really examined by the movie that much of like
Speaker 1: Reasons that which is people who are perceived to be
Speaker 1: which is used to be executed, which was just like
Speaker 1: women with too much power, It was a fear of
Speaker 1: it was either like an excuse to get rid of
Speaker 1: woman that the powers that be didn't like uh, were
Speaker 1: stepped out of line in some way, or it was
Speaker 1: a condemnation of women in stem and like womeners and yeah,
Speaker 1: which is where usually considered thought to be witches when
Speaker 1: they were stepping outside of societal norms and and disproportionately
Speaker 1: women who were menopausal or post menopausal were so like
Speaker 1: older or elderly women were often thought to be which
Speaker 1: is more so um poor women, widowed women or never
Speaker 1: married women were all like these types of women were
Speaker 1: to be more likely to be persecuted for being witches. Right,
Speaker 1: And so it's just like the entire culture surrounding the
Speaker 1: persecution of people accused of being witches just ties into this,
Speaker 1: like fear of women straying out of what is their
Speaker 1: societally expected role. Right, It's just like stepping out of
Speaker 1: line means you're more likely to literally get murdered for
Speaker 1: no reason. And I think that this movie does some
Speaker 1: things to challenge it, but it it is again a
Speaker 1: very late nineties safe challenge because most of their magic
Speaker 1: is in direct relation to hetero stuff and results, you know,
Speaker 1: the result, like you were just talking about, is romantically
Speaker 1: fulfilling hetero relationship for the character who is not more
Speaker 1: sexually active, who more subscribed to the the idea of
Speaker 1: the American woman role. Yes, but yeah, I mean just
Speaker 1: in general, like just in terms of what I think
Speaker 1: would have been more fun to watch, just to see,
Speaker 1: you know, how they could use their magic in ways
Speaker 1: that didn't directly relate to men, right for sure. Even so,
Speaker 1: I think It is nice to see positive representation of
Speaker 1: like witchy characters in media because media has usually done
Speaker 1: what society has done in terms of its treatment of
Speaker 1: people who were assumed to be witches, which is which
Speaker 1: is too, which is wow words, um, which is to
Speaker 1: paint them in very negative ways. Um, which characters in
Speaker 1: movies are usually like the evil, the yeah, scary bad,
Speaker 1: which is who are evil? And the farious and I
Speaker 1: think normally jealous too is a defining quality of like
Speaker 1: the traditional Hollywood which character is that the snow white
Speaker 1: evil stepmother, which yeah, like envy is really tight in
Speaker 1: and that has kind of nothing to do with the nineties,
Speaker 1: which which is fun because I mean, which ha there,
Speaker 1: and this is kind of where this is like coming
Speaker 1: out in a moment where it's kind of like a
Speaker 1: peak like cool trendy nineties, which because it's like at
Speaker 1: this time we have the Craft I think comes out
Speaker 1: shortly after this. We have a Craft was I think
Speaker 1: a couple years before is it before? Okay, so we
Speaker 1: have that, we have Sabrina the teenage, which Harry Potter
Speaker 1: is about to come out in a cocus pocus like
Speaker 1: the nineties is fully Halloween Halloween Town for crying outlet,
Speaker 1: Like it's like this is a big moment for sympathizing
Speaker 1: with witch characters. Also the Witches of Eastwick, which I
Speaker 1: have not seen and don't know what the movie is about,
Speaker 1: but if it might be an example as well, I
Speaker 1: don't know. We don't know if someone has um every
Speaker 1: time something like specifically this comes up and like, Hey,
Speaker 1: if anyone's written their thesis paper on this, email me
Speaker 1: a PDF, because I would be curious as to like,
Speaker 1: because like the mid to late nineties is loaded, like
Speaker 1: there's just this huge boost in which characters being portrayed
Speaker 1: sympathetically and not just sympathetically, but being portrayed as like
Speaker 1: cool and aspirational, and I wonder why that is. I wonder,
Speaker 1: like societally, what was was what was going on that
Speaker 1: made that made that cool. I'm glad it happened. I
Speaker 1: would I wanted to come back because it was you know,
Speaker 1: inclusive this time. Yeah, definitely. It was a good departure
Speaker 1: from the way which has had previously been represented, which
Speaker 1: is also not which is also not at all reflective
Speaker 1: of the women who were actually condemned for being which
Speaker 1: is throughout history. So it's just been so muddied and
Speaker 1: it's weird. I mean, I I like the the all
Speaker 1: cool reboot of which is I think it's fun and
Speaker 1: and awesome and like it just was very influential on
Speaker 1: me as a kid too. Like so I'm very biased
Speaker 1: in saying it because I was just like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is my ship, but it was very cool. Um, can
Speaker 1: we talk a little bit about the Jimmy situation. Yes,
Speaker 1: let's talk about him. So there is like the depiction
Speaker 1: in some ways of an abusive relationship in this movie
Speaker 1: between Jilly and Jimmy, And I will say, I know
Speaker 1: this is like a polarizing topic and everyone's going to
Speaker 1: have a different opinion. I was kind of pleasantly surprised
Speaker 1: with how this movie handled it, partially because he gets killed,
Speaker 1: which is great and cathartic, but I, I I mean, we
Speaker 1: sort of talked about this already, But I really liked
Speaker 1: that Jilly called her sister right away when the relationship
Speaker 1: truly became volatile and saw support from her sister. I
Speaker 1: thought that that was like a pretty realistic, strong move
Speaker 1: on the part of that. Like, I was weirdly, like
Speaker 1: very affected by it that every time I see that
Speaker 1: scene and I don't know. I mean, I I it's
Speaker 1: also implied in a way that was I think it's
Speaker 1: just like that relationship because it did get so cartoony,
Speaker 1: and I think Jimmy has maybe a little too cartoony
Speaker 1: for an abuser, uh in in some ways where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, he's up and then bonk him on the
Speaker 1: head and he's down, Like there is like a cartoony
Speaker 1: nature of how they kill him. But another thing that
Speaker 1: could have affected me and I was like, Oh, that's
Speaker 1: like more nuanced than I would expect from this movie,
Speaker 1: I guess, is that Julie makes it clear that she
Speaker 1: really did, like have feelings for him and loved him
Speaker 1: and didn't have guilt about that and was like honest
Speaker 1: about that with her sister. And that was another thing
Speaker 1: that I was like, Oh, that's more than I would
Speaker 1: expect from a movie like this. And I also found
Speaker 1: to be just I'm like, oh, I don't know how
Speaker 1: often you see that, because you know, so often when
Speaker 1: abusive relationships are portrayed, we see the characters in the
Speaker 1: movie being like, well, why don't Julie, why don't you
Speaker 1: like just all the kind of normal blaming stuff for
Speaker 1: women that are in abusive relationships, but to hear her,
Speaker 1: you know, say genuinely that she did love him and
Speaker 1: she was afraid of him, and you know now she
Speaker 1: we'd see the moment where she says, enough is enough.
Speaker 1: I need to seek out help to get out of
Speaker 1: this situation. I thought was was kind of well done
Speaker 1: and right. I was again just be I think mostly
Speaker 1: because it came out where it's like, you know, everything
Speaker 1: is blamey and weird. I was. I was like very
Speaker 1: impressed with like the way that that played out, and
Speaker 1: like we've discussed before that Sally doesn't um at any
Speaker 1: point not believe her sister UM. And then you know,
Speaker 1: however cartoonish I think. I mean, it would have been
Speaker 1: a little weird if they didn't kill him in a weird,
Speaker 1: cartoony way, I guess, just because of the tone of
Speaker 1: the movie, but in a very cathartic way. I think
Speaker 1: for women who have been in abusive relationships, it is
Speaker 1: always very fun for us to be like and then
Speaker 1: he gets killed and no one gets in trouble because
Speaker 1: that's just like a fun fantasy. UM. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I was generally impressed with how this movie
Speaker 1: handled it. Right, because all relationships are complicated, including ones
Speaker 1: with abusers. So but movies often failed to explore or
Speaker 1: any of the complexities of those relationships and usually just
Speaker 1: paint the abuser as being just like extremely cartoony and
Speaker 1: he is, especially after he killed Sillier and Sillier but
Speaker 1: up till that, but before that, Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1: I think the movie handled that fairly responsibly. It was nice.
Speaker 1: Yeah and there And I think we've discussed this, I
Speaker 1: think more on the main trion weirdly than on the
Speaker 1: main feed. But the idea that I mean just statistically,
Speaker 1: women are more commonly abused and assaulted by men that
Speaker 1: they already know as opposed And that's not to say
Speaker 1: I mean it does happen with strangers, but I think
Speaker 1: that there is this disproportionate representation in movies of it
Speaker 1: happening from a stranger um and less often from characters
Speaker 1: that the female character already knows. And I'm sure that
Speaker 1: that has something to do with the discomfort with male
Speaker 1: audience members seeing themselves or qualities of themselves in an
Speaker 1: abusive character. And that's something I think it was. Was
Speaker 1: it the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo episode where we
Speaker 1: had like a conversation about that. And I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that Jimmy is like a character that men will really
Speaker 1: see themselves in because he is like a late nineties
Speaker 1: goth Um, which is not super common any longer, but
Speaker 1: it is, I don't know, just like setting the groundwork.
Speaker 1: I think for what is a more common abusive relationship
Speaker 1: than what we see in movies? A lot was uh
Speaker 1: you know, points for sure, points you hinted at the
Speaker 1: bonking of the head, the sacred bonking of the head. Uh. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought it up, because this is one
Speaker 1: of many examples we see in a movie of a
Speaker 1: woman using specifically a frying pan as a weapon. Um
Speaker 1: it is, which is it is like a cartoon example. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So right after they bring Jimmy back to life after
Speaker 1: they've killed him the first time with poison, Um they
Speaker 1: bring a back to life, he starts choking and attacking Jilly,
Speaker 1: so Sally bonks him on the head with a skillet. Um.
Speaker 1: You know, because women be using domestic items as weapons,
Speaker 1: they never get their own weapons. But I was like you,
Speaker 1: but you know, magic, like surely there's conjure up like
Speaker 1: a thing to like make him go to sleep again
Speaker 1: or something. I don't know, but um, I know you're
Speaker 1: totally right, Like is like that's another confusing use of
Speaker 1: like it's implied that they can do infinity magic, but
Speaker 1: they only do like heater real relationship magic, which is like,
Speaker 1: come on, show me something else. Um. But I've been
Speaker 1: I've been keeping a little tally of all the movies
Speaker 1: that we see this very specific thing happening of a
Speaker 1: woman bonking a man with a frying pan, Raiders of
Speaker 1: the Last Art shuck a lot, um, yep, that happens.
Speaker 1: I forgot about that. Who framed Roger Rabbit? Those are
Speaker 1: the only ones I could think of off the top
Speaker 1: of my head, But I know there are more, because
Speaker 1: I know we've talked about others. But yeah, it's um,
Speaker 1: it's a trope that this movie did choose to subscribe to,
Speaker 1: although they probably weren't even aware of that they were
Speaker 1: doing it as they were writing it. But also, how
Speaker 1: about that midnight Margarita scene? So much fun, iconic and
Speaker 1: weird and every way it's so bizarre because it's sandwich
Speaker 1: between two heavy scene. Yes, totally yes, weird and incongruous.
Speaker 1: I don't we're alert sure that was a word even
Speaker 1: that was it was adjacent to a word that was
Speaker 1: like I could. I'm like, man, if you were like
Speaker 1: the director of that movie, that'd be so hard because
Speaker 1: you're like, hm, it doesn't fit. But I like it
Speaker 1: so much. I guess just put it in wherever. I
Speaker 1: just I love to see women having fun in a
Speaker 1: movie because you don't see it that much. You don't
Speaker 1: see women get to have fun, fun together. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: it was really nice. But then they are being like,
Speaker 1: you're a whitch, you're a slut. But then they do
Speaker 1: you He's like when since when is being been a
Speaker 1: crime in this family's right? Coming to the defense of
Speaker 1: her sisters, like I'm we claiming the term, They're like alright,
Speaker 1: uh yeah, no at this movie, uh, you know, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: and in some ways I can understand it was not
Speaker 1: very successful. Um, it did not make back its budget unfortunately,
Speaker 1: which is you know, I mean, and and these are
Speaker 1: big stars at this time, so I think it was
Speaker 1: probably surprising that this movie didn't make its money back.
Speaker 1: And a lot of the criticism around it at the
Speaker 1: time was based around the tonal issues, which you know,
Speaker 1: we can't deny them. So there wasn't even I mean
Speaker 1: on the on the cursory check I did, because you know,
Speaker 1: we like to go back and see how movies were
Speaker 1: reviewed because there's a lot of the especially the further
Speaker 1: bike you go. Most film critics are white guys, and
Speaker 1: so when movies come out for anyone that isn't them,
Speaker 1: they're like, hey, did it there? Or even just like
Speaker 1: I liked it, but what I liked it, but like
Speaker 1: I don't think it was written for me, and and
Speaker 1: then be like I'm talking in a star it wasn't
Speaker 1: made for me. Um, we're not as much of it.
Speaker 1: They're most of the criticism around this movie surrounded the
Speaker 1: tonal issues, which is a valid criticism, and they're like,
Speaker 1: but Nicole Kidman and Sandra Book are great, would love
Speaker 1: to see them in more movies, which I also agree with. Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: just a couple of last things from me one other
Speaker 1: film and Louise parallel both movies, and with either the
Speaker 1: two women jumping off or driving off of a surface, Yeah,
Speaker 1: one goes far better than the other. Yep, So that's
Speaker 1: still little keeping much. And then finally, there is a
Speaker 1: black cat that keeps popping up in the movie Do
Speaker 1: You Talk about it. Well, it's just that cats have
Speaker 1: eight nipples, and that's cat facts with Caitlin, but also
Speaker 1: black cats there's still superstition around them. Black cats are
Speaker 1: much harder to get adopted in like places like the
Speaker 1: SPCA and stuff like that, because people still have a
Speaker 1: superstition around black cats. Can I tell you something? Yes? Please?
Speaker 1: Two years after this movie was released, when I was
Speaker 1: seven years old, I adopted a black cat and he
Speaker 1: lived for fifteen years and he was really mean, always mean.
Speaker 1: He loves me, probably had a curse on him. He
Speaker 1: was no he was taught much like my current pet.
Speaker 1: He was very into toxically performing his gender. But you know,
Speaker 1: r I p the cat. We tried to give him
Speaker 1: a name, but he was just here the cat. My
Speaker 1: roommate has a black cat right now. So positive representation
Speaker 1: of black cats and movies, and this movie does it.
Speaker 1: So I would say it's pretty neutral that the cat
Speaker 1: isn't as much of a character as it should be.
Speaker 1: It doesn't speak like Salem, And that was actually a
Speaker 1: really stupid creative decision. Why wasn't the cat a puppet?
Speaker 1: Wasn't the frog a puppet? Erasure? Alfred will init should
Speaker 1: have played the frog. It was just a grown man
Speaker 1: in a frog suit. Like but I just found out
Speaker 1: today that Paddington on ice. I'm very excited for you
Speaker 1: in London. Go back. I can't afford that. You know,
Speaker 1: you have sledge costs. They're Anastasia is happening near us
Speaker 1: for the next couple of weeks. Ice are just regular
Speaker 1: wish on ice, just on regular but still pretty cool.
Speaker 1: Talk to me when it's on a slippery surface. I
Speaker 1: saw Anna's Asia on ice as a kid. I remember
Speaker 1: the wig, the raspute and Beard kept flying. Oh it
Speaker 1: was great. I love ice shows. Okay, let's do Anitania again.
Speaker 1: Well that's practical magic everyone. Yes, this was so fun. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So if you like the style of this episode, you'll
Speaker 1: love our matreon. Yeah this is literally the matreon is horizontal,
Speaker 1: the main feet is vertical, and that's just kind of
Speaker 1: the difference exactly. Um yeah, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: uh for a wait, we have to do a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff. I forgot how our show. I was literally
Speaker 1: looking at prices for tickets on Anasthesia rate a sec.
Speaker 1: Does this movie pass the Bechdel tests? Yes, it does,
Speaker 1: it does. It does pretty handling a lot between a
Speaker 1: lot of different characters. Yeah, there's sometimes like again, like
Speaker 1: we are always sort of like a movie to movie
Speaker 1: in terms of cont the subcontext being about a man,
Speaker 1: because a lot of times they're talking about how to
Speaker 1: cover up a murder, but of a man. But I
Speaker 1: found like the murder of a man who passes right
Speaker 1: inherently yes, yes, but even so there I mean before
Speaker 1: the man enters the picture. But also like it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we did cast that spell on you so that you'd
Speaker 1: fall in love with the fruit vendor. I just don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there's still there are there are lots of conversations
Speaker 1: that pass. In fact, um, I don't know if two
Speaker 1: men talk to each other in this entire movie. Oh
Speaker 1: that's a good question. I don't. I don't. I can't
Speaker 1: think of an example of it happening. And if so,
Speaker 1: it's how we normally see the movie pass the backtel test,
Speaker 1: where it's very kind of inconsequential and in passing for sure.
Speaker 1: So there you goddamn go. So we've got our nipple
Speaker 1: scale of course, zero to five nipples. Based on its
Speaker 1: representation of women. I feel like this one probably gets
Speaker 1: I'm tempted to give it a three, maybe even a
Speaker 1: three and a half. Obviously it gets some nipples docked
Speaker 1: for it being guilty of only featuring cis hit white women. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: so there's that issue that it's which is the issue
Speaker 1: of this era into today. But this movie is like,
Speaker 1: especially given the subject matter, um, and the tendency of
Speaker 1: this genre to completely exclude anyone that isn't a straight
Speaker 1: hot white lady. Right. Um. I do enjoy a lot
Speaker 1: of things about the movie though, again that it is
Speaker 1: largely about women supporting women. Um. They they do have
Speaker 1: to support each other about things relating to men. But
Speaker 1: that I mean that the scene at the end with
Speaker 1: the coven coming together all the women who had preview
Speaker 1: to sleep in like, which, which, you're a bitch, and
Speaker 1: they're like, actually, I wanted to see the inside of
Speaker 1: your really cool house, so I'll come over and help
Speaker 1: help you sweep out the dust of this shitty man. Um.
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe I'll give it. I'll split the diff
Speaker 1: I'll give it a three point to five that thank you,
Speaker 1: and I'll give one nip to Sandy Bee, I'll give
Speaker 1: one nip to Nikki Kay and my other one point
Speaker 1: to five nips I will give to the little Black
Speaker 1: Katy who we see first as a kitten and then
Speaker 1: we see you as an adult cat. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if we ever learned its name, but it's super cute.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm gonna go. I think it is the
Speaker 1: same thing with three feels to allow. Three by five
Speaker 1: feels too high. I'm gonna follow your lead, my sister,
Speaker 1: which um and go three point to five. I think
Speaker 1: four it's time. It gets kind of a surprising amount, right.
Speaker 1: I like the relationships between women in this movie. I
Speaker 1: like the trust and support even when it comes to murder. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and that you see, even though we've discussed in
Speaker 1: terms of Hollywood, we don't see a lot of different
Speaker 1: types of women physically, but but personality wise, there is
Speaker 1: a lot of different approaches to life, and no one
Speaker 1: has really except with the kind of subtle things towards
Speaker 1: Nicole Kidman's character. Um, they're generally treated with respect even
Speaker 1: though they're making very different life and lifestyle choices, which
Speaker 1: is really fun. I again think that the stuff with
Speaker 1: the abusive relationship was done more right than you would
Speaker 1: expect kind of campy movie to do, and it's a
Speaker 1: fun watch. The line in the coconut scene. I say,
Speaker 1: cut Aidan Quinn and put the line in the coconut
Speaker 1: scene in it twice. Um. Yeah, it's a fun movie
Speaker 1: and I you know, everyone should watch it if they
Speaker 1: haven't seen it. I'll do three point to five and
Speaker 1: I'll give one to Sandy, one to Nikki, one to
Speaker 1: Evan rachel Wood, and uh point to five to the
Speaker 1: Froggy who should have been all for Millina, who should
Speaker 1: have been out for Billina. But Alfred was called and
Speaker 1: he was like, I don't want to take apart from
Speaker 1: a frog. And we're like, he's a here, what was
Speaker 1: he doing? I thank you for I was like it
Speaker 1: would be too much, thank you for carrying up. I
Speaker 1: don't know, let's see, let's say it alf b. He's
Speaker 1: right now. He's probably like, how am I going to
Speaker 1: promote Frozen two? He's coming off of that boogie Night's heat.
Speaker 1: He could have been filming for either Agnolia or Deadly
Speaker 1: Do right to totally identical movies. Anyways. Yeah, that's the
Speaker 1: episode on Practical Magic. Everyone, damn right it is. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening. We'll just go straight to our plugs, which
Speaker 1: are again, Uh you liked the the loose, silly style
Speaker 1: of this episode, then you'll love our Matreon, so subscribe.
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Speaker 1: just the two of us episodes seemed to celebrate our
Speaker 1: three year anniversary as a goddamn show. It's coming on up,
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Speaker 1: we and if you want a merch, we've got merch
Speaker 1: at our Tea public store, te public dot com, slash
Speaker 1: b backdel Cast, Holidays coming up, et cetera, and check
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Speaker 1: and we're gonna be in Denver. Oh yes, we're gonna
Speaker 1: be done. So if you live in Denver, come to
Speaker 1: our co headlining stand up shows that Jamie and I
Speaker 1: are doing on November six at Bar Max. We also
Speaker 1: have a live Becktel Cash show on the seventeen, covering
Speaker 1: the Santa Claus which is Brave of Us, extremely brave,
Speaker 1: and our special guest for that is Grace Thomas um So.
Speaker 1: All the tickets for all of those shows are on
Speaker 1: our website becktel cast dot com. Click on the live
Speaker 1: tab and all the links will be there. So if
Speaker 1: you live in Denver or you live close by, come
Speaker 1: see us. So we'll see you soon and we'll talk
Speaker 1: to you soon. Happy Halloween, which you bit by