Speaker 1: Two years ago, millennials officially became the biggest generation in
Speaker 1: the workforce, and they definitely get a lot of attention,
Speaker 1: some of it good and some of it not so good.
Speaker 1: But what about everybody else? This is game Plan. Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavie, and this week
Speaker 1: we're talking about the generational tensions that happened in the
Speaker 1: workplace today. So maybe you're being managed by somebody who's
Speaker 1: half your age, or maybe you're years old and you
Speaker 1: find yourself in charge of an entire company, and a
Speaker 1: lot of these types of things are coming up between
Speaker 1: the two biggest generations in the workplace now, which are
Speaker 1: the millennials and the boomers. Oh, millennials were all about them,
Speaker 1: We talk all about them on those podcasts. Do you
Speaker 1: feel left out? I'm depending on actually, not by any
Speaker 1: by any age range you go by. I am not
Speaker 1: technically a millennial, although I skirted it by not very
Speaker 1: much at all. Yeah, I've seen pus nineteen eighty to
Speaker 1: two thousand, the years year born, and I've heard two.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of arguing about what really being a
Speaker 1: millennial means. I think a lot of people don't want
Speaker 1: to be considered it when they are. Well, I'm so
Speaker 1: I don't fall in any of those age ranges. But
Speaker 1: I'm also on the way young side of being gen X,
Speaker 1: so I don't super identify with any of that culture either.
Speaker 1: But as you, as you mentioned to me earlier, Um,
Speaker 1: we don't get to choose our fate. No, No, you
Speaker 1: are what you are. You're a millennial and that's that's yeah,
Speaker 1: although there's you know, there's a pushback against that now
Speaker 1: for people like me who are who are trapped between
Speaker 1: two generations. They're calling us um z zennials why like
Speaker 1: x ennial between gen X and millennial. And I've also
Speaker 1: heard um generation catalano a reference to myself called life,
Speaker 1: which salute defining cultural moment of a certain type of
Speaker 1: middle class person exactly my age. Well, we don't have
Speaker 1: to get to granular, but I think a lot of
Speaker 1: the issues that are coming up in the workplace between
Speaker 1: these generations aren't really generational but age. I think that's
Speaker 1: the thing is we millennials get a rep for a
Speaker 1: lot of things that they are said to be doing
Speaker 1: just because they're millennials. Like they want to work in
Speaker 1: a certain way, and companies have to adapt to that.
Speaker 1: But a lot of it is just like this is
Speaker 1: how to thirty five year olds work. Boomers have told
Speaker 1: me that millennials were coddled and we need a metal
Speaker 1: and like feedback for every task. Um. Although it's funny
Speaker 1: because every time I'm on the phone with my dad,
Speaker 1: he's the one who's always like, did you get feedback?
Speaker 1: Did you get feedback? And I'm like, who's obsessed with feedback?
Speaker 1: The one who coddled you into a demand and straight back,
Speaker 1: It's true, it's true. And then on the other side,
Speaker 1: there are people who say older workers are set in
Speaker 1: their ways and they're less inclined to adapt to new
Speaker 1: technologies or new ways of working, and that that can
Speaker 1: be a hindrance on like productivity and getting things done.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, in certain industries like technology,
Speaker 1: they have to face this cult of youngness. There's an
Speaker 1: article on Bloomberg that talk to these people who are
Speaker 1: over forty in Silicon Valley and found out all the
Speaker 1: things that they did to seem younger because otherwise they
Speaker 1: weren't going to get hired, like getting botox and plastic
Speaker 1: surgery and dyeing their hair over forty not old. Oh
Speaker 1: my god. But yeah, and you people wipe their college
Speaker 1: graduation day from their LinkedIn profile. You hear people talk
Speaker 1: about fresh blood. I feel like that's like code for
Speaker 1: bringing in young people, and it's almost like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: one of those like age related dog whistles, almost like
Speaker 1: if you say fresh blood, you're basically like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to hire older people. And a trend that's exacerbating
Speaker 1: this issue is that boomers are working longer than ever before.
Speaker 1: A colleague of ours been Steve Verman, wrote an article
Speaker 1: recently how US seniors are employed at the highest rates
Speaker 1: that they've been in fifty five years, and it was
Speaker 1: both because they have to and and it's harder to retire,
Speaker 1: but also because they want to and they're staying in
Speaker 1: the workplace. So these generational clashes really aren't going to
Speaker 1: go away. To talk us through how to deal with
Speaker 1: that reality, our guests today worked and succeeded in multiple
Speaker 1: workplaces where most people weren't her age. Karen Way three
Speaker 1: has worked in technology businesses for over thirty years. She's
Speaker 1: worked at Google and Twitter, and she now runs her
Speaker 1: own company, Cavox Media. Thanks for joining us today, Oh
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here. So we normally don't start
Speaker 1: interviews with such a personal question, but given the topic,
Speaker 1: we're wondering, how old are you? I'm sixty six and yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's relevant because you've worked at some of the
Speaker 1: biggest names in Silicon Valley, which is a place that's
Speaker 1: notorious for being on by twenty year olds. You started
Speaker 1: working at Google when you were fifty two, So what
Speaker 1: is it like being one of the only older people
Speaker 1: at these companies? You know, you're definitely in the minority, no,
Speaker 1: no question about that. You don't have a lot of
Speaker 1: age peers around. But I have to say, um, I
Speaker 1: had been working around technology businesses for many years, and
Speaker 1: I got my start working for computer magazines. There was
Speaker 1: a world of paper computer magazines and there were many
Speaker 1: of them. So it makes a big difference if you
Speaker 1: have credentials that people recognize, and I was lucky that
Speaker 1: I did. And it's on that basis that I've held
Speaker 1: a lot of the jobs I've had, including when I
Speaker 1: got into Google at age fifty two. Would you say
Speaker 1: that you've experienced age discrimination in your line of work.
Speaker 1: It's such a hard thing. That is so not a yes,
Speaker 1: no question for me. Because yes, there are subtle things
Speaker 1: that you know, you might in two it as some
Speaker 1: kind of age discrimination, just like you might not be
Speaker 1: sure about gender or raised discrimination. Uh in some instances. Uh.
Speaker 1: For me, I mean, I think I had to accept
Speaker 1: long ago that I was going to be in a
Speaker 1: minority right, or several minorities. Also being a woman in tech.
Speaker 1: The assumption about my age was you are professionally developed.
Speaker 1: You don't need the kinds of things that younger people
Speaker 1: coming in need, for example, training about uh, you know,
Speaker 1: how to be a manager, or training about career development,
Speaker 1: or about um, you know, trying new lines of work
Speaker 1: or rotating to different offices around the world. So I
Speaker 1: wasn't an obvious you know, thought for those kinds of
Speaker 1: things for good reason. But at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like anyone in particular, and this is
Speaker 1: not just at Google, this is all through my career
Speaker 1: was specifically looking out for my professional development. I was
Speaker 1: the one that needed to do that. In your article,
Speaker 1: you mentioned that you've had the experience of working for
Speaker 1: people quite a bit younger than you. I'm wondering what
Speaker 1: that was like. You know that took some adjustment for
Speaker 1: me to work for people who were younger. When you
Speaker 1: work in tech for a long time, you expect that
Speaker 1: the norm is not the most senior people with the
Speaker 1: most tenure are on top. That's not how it works
Speaker 1: right in tech, but very well documented. So that was
Speaker 1: not my expectation. I for a brief time when I
Speaker 1: first got to Google, I thought, well, they're going to
Speaker 1: need my management experience and my sort of overall maturity
Speaker 1: as the company continues to grow. And they did. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't an automatic gimme and the way I thought
Speaker 1: it would be, because at the same time, the population
Speaker 1: is such that um people who are very energetic, enthusiastic
Speaker 1: are the ones that you want to give incentives to
Speaker 1: and have them learn how to do these things, a
Speaker 1: philosophy that I understood. But at the same time that
Speaker 1: meant that along the way, I worked for people who
Speaker 1: were at a minimum twenty years younger than me, and
Speaker 1: you know, some understood who I was and what my
Speaker 1: value was and didn't sort of peck me to death.
Speaker 1: And then there were some who, you know, felt they
Speaker 1: had to show off that they were quote managing and
Speaker 1: and and they did. So there were you know, there
Speaker 1: were there were some hard moments, uh, all around. But
Speaker 1: the other thing in tech is you don't tend to
Speaker 1: stay in one The organization shift around you. So I
Speaker 1: never had any any one manager for very long. It
Speaker 1: just became kind of part of the landscape. I'm wondering
Speaker 1: what that looked like when those younger managers who were
Speaker 1: less comfortable working with someone older, what did that look
Speaker 1: like when they pecked you to death. Pecking means micromanagement
Speaker 1: in this case, or second guessing me, which I just
Speaker 1: was not used to. So I won't I won't deny it.
Speaker 1: I mean, there were there were tough times. There was
Speaker 1: you know, one guy in particulars maybe maybe twenty years younger,
Speaker 1: and he was itching to be promoted, and that meant
Speaker 1: he had to have experience managing people, right, I mean
Speaker 1: that he had to have that credential earned. And he
Speaker 1: I don't I knew coming. I knew he was hired
Speaker 1: as kind of a lone ranger. I knew he was
Speaker 1: kind of a solo guy. But yet he wanted to
Speaker 1: earn this because he really wanted to be the next
Speaker 1: level of So I understood that maybe he didn't know
Speaker 1: I was aware of it, but he he kind of
Speaker 1: processed things and minutia and reporting on what I'd done
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. And you know, I did
Speaker 1: it for a while, but we definitely had tension between us.
Speaker 1: And finally I really thought about it hard, and I
Speaker 1: really thought, you know, I'm not going to let him
Speaker 1: get best of me, and this is going to change.
Speaker 1: So one day and one of our sit downs, I
Speaker 1: just had a frank talk with him because we both
Speaker 1: had felt the tension, and I said, look, you don't
Speaker 1: like the tension. I don't like the tension. Let me
Speaker 1: tell you what will work better in working with me.
Speaker 1: This will and this other thing won't. The micro managing won't.
Speaker 1: And you know you have to trust me. I'm willing
Speaker 1: to go along with some of the things you think
Speaker 1: you need to do, even though I questioned them. Let's
Speaker 1: just try and make this work. And he really backed
Speaker 1: off then, and um, you know, it went fine. And
Speaker 1: then he rotated on to another to another group, and
Speaker 1: I had a different manager and and it was a
Speaker 1: different situation where they did trust me. So you know,
Speaker 1: it wasn't fun necessarily, but it wasn't horrible either, and
Speaker 1: I got through it. Do you think this is something
Speaker 1: that's a little more widespread than just the companies you've
Speaker 1: worked at or the tech industry, Like, have you heard
Speaker 1: similar stories from your peers? I have, and it is
Speaker 1: getting to be because, let's face it, generationally, it's just
Speaker 1: the law of large numbers right thinning the ranks as
Speaker 1: they get older, not because they're retiring. There may be
Speaker 1: going to work for themselves. They're shifting out of the
Speaker 1: big corporations, they've been downsized, whatever it is. And meanwhile
Speaker 1: there's a new wave of now several waves of younger
Speaker 1: people coming up. So it definitely happens. Especially I think
Speaker 1: some companies feel like, not tech so much, but they
Speaker 1: feel like we need to get some fresh blood in here.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a fad in a way to say,
Speaker 1: like we're proving that we're contemporary and tech savvy in
Speaker 1: another industry for example. So yes, you certainly do hear
Speaker 1: of it. And I suspect it's actually tougher outside of
Speaker 1: tech because they have so many more norms about a
Speaker 1: hierarchy than tech does. We've been talking about your specific experiences,
Speaker 1: but what are some of the broader issues that older
Speaker 1: workers face. Well, you know, since I wrote that article,
Speaker 1: have to say I had in mind older workers when
Speaker 1: I was making suggestions about things like the ability to
Speaker 1: have more flexible schedules and the ability to you know,
Speaker 1: rotate shadow other teams, learn about other roles, rotate maybe
Speaker 1: two other locations. But the fact is, it turns out,
Speaker 1: and I heard from lots of readers on this that
Speaker 1: that's that's true for returning moms, uh who have been
Speaker 1: caretakers or had babies, that that's true for people who
Speaker 1: have moved to a different area maybe because their partner
Speaker 1: got a new job and they had to look. So
Speaker 1: it turns out it's not just accommodating older workers, it's
Speaker 1: it's also just good for everybody to have some more
Speaker 1: inventive ways of managing you know, roles and tasks and
Speaker 1: sort of being more creative about them. What were the
Speaker 1: other some of the other recommendations you made in your
Speaker 1: story for how companies can better address age differences. Well,
Speaker 1: one that is kind of maybe an easier one to
Speaker 1: do is team socializing. Right, So it's a good idea
Speaker 1: for teams to let off steam and get to know
Speaker 1: each other a little bit outside the office, even if
Speaker 1: it's at an off site or some other work related thing.
Speaker 1: But I've been in situations and I know of people
Speaker 1: who have had tougher ones that I have. Where you know,
Speaker 1: the the off site or the quote fun activity, it's
Speaker 1: definitely not geared to not just age, but just different
Speaker 1: kinds of people. So if it's rock climbing, or if
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, paintball or something, you know, these
Speaker 1: are maybe gonna lend themselves to the widest spectrum of
Speaker 1: the team. And yet there's sort of a political price
Speaker 1: to pay if you don't participate. So I would encourage
Speaker 1: you know, managers and leaders to think about, let's put
Speaker 1: some parameters around the work related social stuff. What would
Speaker 1: be best to accommodate truly everybody in the group, because
Speaker 1: of should find out that you know, there's this one
Speaker 1: is is a recovering alcoholic, or this other one has
Speaker 1: little kids and is a single mom or dead, and
Speaker 1: so you you want to accommodate everyone's a schedule to
Speaker 1: the best of your ability, and to accommodate the kinds
Speaker 1: of activities where people can can get to know each
Speaker 1: other and socialize without having this these sort of rigorous
Speaker 1: physical tests or non work our tests. What would that
Speaker 1: be like, Well, it would be like, let's go to
Speaker 1: a place right after work. I've I've actually had teams
Speaker 1: where we've done this many times where you break early,
Speaker 1: you leave at four four thirty, and you go to
Speaker 1: not just a bar, but a bar and restaurant that
Speaker 1: serves food and people can just sit around and socialize.
Speaker 1: They don't all have to drink, and you can have
Speaker 1: a thing where you change seats at some point and
Speaker 1: get to know someone else. Things like that that are
Speaker 1: a little bit more or Volunteer activities is another thing
Speaker 1: that is a great way to have people work on
Speaker 1: teams together for whether it's a food bank or something
Speaker 1: like that. That can be actually a lot of fun
Speaker 1: and you're doing good and it's kind of interesting to
Speaker 1: see how the team work goes and help people throw
Speaker 1: themselves into it where you're working together to help some
Speaker 1: worthy local organization, you know, get get something done. We
Speaker 1: hear a lot about benefits that cater to millennials because
Speaker 1: they're desirable to hire, So like student debt benefits and
Speaker 1: parental leave. What are some benefits older workers might want.
Speaker 1: A big one that comes to mind, honestly is ways
Speaker 1: to help with elder care right because boomers and even
Speaker 1: actually the next generation up um are now looking after
Speaker 1: elderly parents or grandparents, and that has all kinds of
Speaker 1: challenges to it, depending on the situation, and sometimes it
Speaker 1: requires a leave from work, or sometimes it requires just
Speaker 1: um being able to make calls from work to talk
Speaker 1: to the doctor, or to make appointments. Any number of
Speaker 1: things can come out of uh, some kind of elder care.
Speaker 1: I did this on my own. I was at Google,
Speaker 1: which treated me very wonderfully as I as I did it,
Speaker 1: but I was a long distance caretaker for my mom
Speaker 1: and I had a good experience, uh fortunately. But I
Speaker 1: know lots of people really struggle with this, So that
Speaker 1: that's one kind of idea. What if, in a worst
Speaker 1: case scenario, you are at a company that really isn't
Speaker 1: treating its older workers better, what recourse might you have?
Speaker 1: Age discrimination cases, I've come to understand are very difficult
Speaker 1: to pursue and to prove so and that's never a
Speaker 1: first resort anyway. It's good to document what's what the
Speaker 1: experiences and to talk to someone outside about it. But sometimes, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a tough thing. It's it's either if
Speaker 1: you can patch things together just for you personally with
Speaker 1: the people you work with. It's kind of off the books,
Speaker 1: an informal great if people are just downright treating you miserably.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd love to say you've got to get out,
Speaker 1: and I know that's harder to do in some cases
Speaker 1: when you are older. So I'm afraid I don't have
Speaker 1: a good, you know, one size fits all solution for that.
Speaker 1: And one final question, as you mentioned that you've got
Speaker 1: response to your article, where are some of the stories
Speaker 1: you were hearing from other people who did feel that
Speaker 1: age had been an issue in their career. Actually, what
Speaker 1: I heard I mentioned I was referencing earlier, which was
Speaker 1: I heard from people uh, pretty much from thirty five
Speaker 1: up saying A, this is familiar to me, and be
Speaker 1: um what you're suggesting as some fixes work for me
Speaker 1: a new mom, or work for me returning to the workforce,
Speaker 1: or work for me you know, needing to work part
Speaker 1: time because I'm a student. So again, it wasn't a
Speaker 1: matter of just um age related fixes alone or suggestions.
Speaker 1: It was Oh, these things can help a number of
Speaker 1: people at different times in their lives, which I think
Speaker 1: is actually the better way to think about it than
Speaker 1: just let's have a checklist for this category of worker
Speaker 1: and then well will be done. That that should never
Speaker 1: be the way employers, you know, approached their their workforce. Anyway, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time and talking
Speaker 1: to us. You're quite welcome. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Karen's experience kind of runs counter to the stereotypes that
Speaker 1: we've been hearing about the generations. Um. She said that
Speaker 1: she got used to working with people who are younger
Speaker 1: than her, and she ran into problems, but it kind
Speaker 1: of sounded like problems you would run into with any manager. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it just drives home the message that it's wrong to
Speaker 1: go into any situation assuming that every older employee is
Speaker 1: going to be kind of set in their ways and
Speaker 1: hanging onto older traditions, and that every you know, young
Speaker 1: upstart boss is going to be really entitled and arrogant. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think the problem was more that she was
Speaker 1: working in a workplace that was homogeneous in a way
Speaker 1: that was different from her and at times didn't recognize that.
Speaker 1: And she gave suggestions for what some companies could do
Speaker 1: to better include people who are older workers. And there's
Speaker 1: even more that some companies are doing so As of fourteen,
Speaker 1: at least CBS had the Snowbirds program where they would
Speaker 1: fly down workers to Florida for the winter months, and
Speaker 1: the people who like to use that were the older
Speaker 1: workers who didn't want to be in the cold climates
Speaker 1: and the winter months. I think that's very creative. And
Speaker 1: you know, some of the other things that she mentioned,
Speaker 1: including just like making work events less geared towards boozy
Speaker 1: late nights and stuff, as she said, didn't just benefit
Speaker 1: people like her. They've benefited people who needed flexible schedules,
Speaker 1: people with elderly relatives that they were taking care of,
Speaker 1: people with families. And it's just like so many things
Speaker 1: that we end up talking about on this show. Whenever
Speaker 1: there's an initiative that helps one group, it tends to
Speaker 1: help other groups as well. So I think that can
Speaker 1: be helpful. When companies think they're doing something that's really
Speaker 1: catering towards a small group, they're actually probably helping out
Speaker 1: a bunch of different groups of people in their company
Speaker 1: that they haven't necessarily thought of before. Yeah, and even
Speaker 1: now those millennials are starting to age into having families
Speaker 1: and we'll need some of those benefits too. And now
Speaker 1: it's time for half big takes, half fake takes. You
Speaker 1: can always call in with your own half bag take
Speaker 1: at two and two six seven zero one six six.
Speaker 1: This week we have a listener half big take from
Speaker 1: Chris Mac who tweeted at us. He said, to add
Speaker 1: on to your escalator half baked take. People that walk
Speaker 1: left and then suddenly stopped near the end dangerous, Please
Speaker 1: keep game. There's so much danger on the escalator. I
Speaker 1: don't know what people are thinking, honestly. Yeah, I get
Speaker 1: various stressed out when somebody pulls out their phone towards
Speaker 1: the end of the escalators. That stuff that stuck the
Speaker 1: escalator exit is a challenge, even if you're like fully
Speaker 1: tuned into your surroundings. And I don't know why you
Speaker 1: would walk the whole time and then become parallezed at
Speaker 1: the key moment when you actually need to move the fastest. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't think there are two sides to this happig take. No,
Speaker 1: it's just it's more support for my genius idea, my
Speaker 1: million dollar idea of walking school, which a lot of
Speaker 1: people in New York and probably even more people in
Speaker 1: other states need to go to. Definitely all right, Francesco
Speaker 1: what is your brilliant idea that you must share with
Speaker 1: the world. So reply all email chains get a lot
Speaker 1: of flak for just being the worst. UM. We experience
Speaker 1: them at work. You know, one person sends an email
Speaker 1: to a million people and then everybody replies all on
Speaker 1: the chain goes on forever and it's to leave listen
Speaker 1: just extually life heck. But I my have big take
Speaker 1: is that there are actually some reply all email chains
Speaker 1: that are not that annoying. So I cannot think of any,
Speaker 1: but you must have been. Okay, I'm on one right now.
Speaker 1: So I'm on like a forty five email long thread
Speaker 1: UM that started several months ago, and it's with I
Speaker 1: will admit it's not work related, it's social, but it's
Speaker 1: all of the people that, um, the couple I'm going
Speaker 1: on vacation next week and there's a couple other families involved,
Speaker 1: and we're all emailing each other about the vacation and
Speaker 1: everybody has responded to everybody with the most my new details,
Speaker 1: like their flight information and their random idea about where
Speaker 1: we should go on this day. And it's like, it's
Speaker 1: not totally necessary and I really want to be annoyed
Speaker 1: by it, Like I want to be like people come
Speaker 1: on like, let's let's but every time I get every
Speaker 1: time I see that that thread got longer, it makes
Speaker 1: me think of my vacations. What makes me happy, because
Speaker 1: that's about a fun thing. Yeah, even if the emails
Speaker 1: themselves are not that fun. Logistically, I generally think we
Speaker 1: should be more pro emails. So I will support this,
Speaker 1: but reluctantly. Fair Becca, what's your happy take? This is
Speaker 1: a very hot, happig take I learned when I first
Speaker 1: proposed it. And it has to do with work, because
Speaker 1: it's about getting ready for work obviously, and it's that
Speaker 1: I'm very pro bathrobe. Yeah, I use one as a
Speaker 1: towel replacement, and you know what, it's really amazing and
Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually I'm just coming out because I've been
Speaker 1: ashamed of it for so long and I will not
Speaker 1: be silenced any longer. Okay, I don't think. I don't
Speaker 1: think that the that the strange behavior is using a bathrobe,
Speaker 1: but I do think that the the use of a
Speaker 1: bathrobe to replace a towel is unorthodox. It's a terrycloth bathrobe.
Speaker 1: It's made of towel material. That is what it's for.
Speaker 1: It is so luxurious, and in the cold winter months,
Speaker 1: it keeps you warm. Okay, I love a bathrobe, and
Speaker 1: I will also throw on a bathrobe in the colder
Speaker 1: mine after I leave the bathroom and you know, before
Speaker 1: I've gotten dressed. But my thing about drying yourself with
Speaker 1: a bathrobe is that this is why I don't leave
Speaker 1: a towel on for too long. Once you have transferred
Speaker 1: the moisture from your body to the drying implement, I
Speaker 1: think you start to get a reversal effect if you
Speaker 1: leave it on for too long, because now let's say
Speaker 1: you've used a towel, You're wearing a wet towel, and
Speaker 1: that wetness is going to transfer back to you, so
Speaker 1: I have to get the towel off you. And I
Speaker 1: just don't know why the same wouldn't be true for
Speaker 1: a bathrobe. I think you need better linens. That just
Speaker 1: doesn't happen to me. It just doesn't. Well, there you go,
Speaker 1: just bragging about your quick drying skills. That's right, And
Speaker 1: this has been half big takes, half baked takes. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening to another episode of Game Plan. You can
Speaker 1: find me. I'm on Twitter at r C Greenfield and
Speaker 1: I'm at Francesca today. You can tweet your half bag
Speaker 1: takes at us. You can call us and leave us
Speaker 1: a voicemail at two and two six month seven's or
Speaker 1: one six six and you can also sign up for
Speaker 1: our newsletter. Just go to Bloomberg dot com slash Newsletters
Speaker 1: and check the game Plan button. If you like the show,
Speaker 1: head on over to Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your podcast and leave us a review or rating.
Speaker 1: I really, I really love it, so just do it.
Speaker 1: This show was produced by Liz Smith and Magnus Hendrickson.
Speaker 1: Head of podcast is Alec McCabe. See you next week. Oakey,
Speaker 1: use drag for sure? Did you hear me? Don't even
Speaker 1: It's not worth it.