WEBVTT - Can Boomers and Millennials Get Along? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.800 Two years ago, millennials officially became the biggest generation in 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.320 the workforce, and they definitely get a lot of attention, 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:10.720 some of it good and some of it not so good. 0:00:11.360 --> 0:00:26.400 But what about everybody else? This is game Plan. Hi. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.520 I'm Rebecca Greenfield and I'm Francesco Leavie, and this week 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.640 we're talking about the generational tensions that happened in the 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:36.680 workplace today. So maybe you're being managed by somebody who's 0:00:36.720 --> 0:00:39.800 half your age, or maybe you're years old and you 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.120 find yourself in charge of an entire company, and a 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.080 lot of these types of things are coming up between 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.680 the two biggest generations in the workplace now, which are 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:52.000 the millennials and the boomers. Oh, millennials were all about them, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:53.840 We talk all about them on those podcasts. Do you 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:59.520 feel left out? I'm depending on actually, not by any 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:01.320 by any age range you go by. I am not 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.120 technically a millennial, although I skirted it by not very 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:06.840 much at all. Yeah, I've seen pus nineteen eighty to 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.839 two thousand, the years year born, and I've heard two. 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:13.319 There's a lot of arguing about what really being a 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.600 millennial means. I think a lot of people don't want 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.040 to be considered it when they are. Well, I'm so 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:21.080 I don't fall in any of those age ranges. But 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.520 I'm also on the way young side of being gen X, 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:29.360 so I don't super identify with any of that culture either. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.800 But as you, as you mentioned to me earlier, Um, 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:35.120 we don't get to choose our fate. No, No, you 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.680 are what you are. You're a millennial and that's that's yeah, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.320 although there's you know, there's a pushback against that now 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:44.680 for people like me who are who are trapped between 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:50.840 two generations. They're calling us um z zennials why like 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:54.760 x ennial between gen X and millennial. And I've also 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:58.960 heard um generation catalano a reference to myself called life, 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.840 which salute defining cultural moment of a certain type of 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.320 middle class person exactly my age. Well, we don't have 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:08.160 to get to granular, but I think a lot of 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.200 the issues that are coming up in the workplace between 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:16.519 these generations aren't really generational but age. I think that's 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:18.840 the thing is we millennials get a rep for a 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.000 lot of things that they are said to be doing 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.880 just because they're millennials. Like they want to work in 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:27.040 a certain way, and companies have to adapt to that. 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.000 But a lot of it is just like this is 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.880 how to thirty five year olds work. Boomers have told 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:37.840 me that millennials were coddled and we need a metal 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:42.560 and like feedback for every task. Um. Although it's funny 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:44.679 because every time I'm on the phone with my dad, 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.480 he's the one who's always like, did you get feedback? 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.880 Did you get feedback? And I'm like, who's obsessed with feedback? 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.280 The one who coddled you into a demand and straight back, 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.760 It's true, it's true. And then on the other side, 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:56.240 there are people who say older workers are set in 0:02:56.240 --> 0:03:00.000 their ways and they're less inclined to adapt to new 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.320 technologies or new ways of working, and that that can 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:06.960 be a hindrance on like productivity and getting things done. 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:10.680 And on top of that, in certain industries like technology, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.120 they have to face this cult of youngness. There's an 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.600 article on Bloomberg that talk to these people who are 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.160 over forty in Silicon Valley and found out all the 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:22.680 things that they did to seem younger because otherwise they 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.640 weren't going to get hired, like getting botox and plastic 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:30.840 surgery and dyeing their hair over forty not old. Oh 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:35.360 my god. But yeah, and you people wipe their college 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:39.360 graduation day from their LinkedIn profile. You hear people talk 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.320 about fresh blood. I feel like that's like code for 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:45.400 bringing in young people, and it's almost like, yeah, it's 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.800 one of those like age related dog whistles, almost like 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:50.839 if you say fresh blood, you're basically like, I don't 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.440 want to hire older people. And a trend that's exacerbating 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:59.520 this issue is that boomers are working longer than ever before. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.600 A colleague of ours been Steve Verman, wrote an article 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:06.280 recently how US seniors are employed at the highest rates 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.480 that they've been in fifty five years, and it was 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.920 both because they have to and and it's harder to retire, 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.160 but also because they want to and they're staying in 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.599 the workplace. So these generational clashes really aren't going to 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:24.000 go away. To talk us through how to deal with 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:28.080 that reality, our guests today worked and succeeded in multiple 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:33.680 workplaces where most people weren't her age. Karen Way three 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:37.000 has worked in technology businesses for over thirty years. She's 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.160 worked at Google and Twitter, and she now runs her 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:42.600 own company, Cavox Media. Thanks for joining us today, Oh 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.080 I'm happy to be here. So we normally don't start 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.320 interviews with such a personal question, but given the topic, 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:53.279 we're wondering, how old are you? I'm sixty six and yeah, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.760 so that's relevant because you've worked at some of the 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.880 biggest names in Silicon Valley, which is a place that's 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.120 notorious for being on by twenty year olds. You started 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.599 working at Google when you were fifty two, So what 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.080 is it like being one of the only older people 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.440 at these companies? You know, you're definitely in the minority, no, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.080 no question about that. You don't have a lot of 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:17.240 age peers around. But I have to say, um, I 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:22.240 had been working around technology businesses for many years, and 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.120 I got my start working for computer magazines. There was 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.280 a world of paper computer magazines and there were many 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.800 of them. So it makes a big difference if you 0:05:32.120 --> 0:05:36.839 have credentials that people recognize, and I was lucky that 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:39.800 I did. And it's on that basis that I've held 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.279 a lot of the jobs I've had, including when I 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.919 got into Google at age fifty two. Would you say 0:05:45.960 --> 0:05:49.440 that you've experienced age discrimination in your line of work. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.920 It's such a hard thing. That is so not a yes, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:58.200 no question for me. Because yes, there are subtle things 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.640 that you know, you might in two it as some 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.440 kind of age discrimination, just like you might not be 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:10.320 sure about gender or raised discrimination. Uh in some instances. Uh. 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.240 For me, I mean, I think I had to accept 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.719 long ago that I was going to be in a 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.680 minority right, or several minorities. Also being a woman in tech. 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.440 The assumption about my age was you are professionally developed. 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.200 You don't need the kinds of things that younger people 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.920 coming in need, for example, training about uh, you know, 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.760 how to be a manager, or training about career development, 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.120 or about um, you know, trying new lines of work 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:44.279 or rotating to different offices around the world. So I 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.720 wasn't an obvious you know, thought for those kinds of 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.479 things for good reason. But at the same time, you know, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.520 I don't feel like anyone in particular, and this is 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.719 not just at Google, this is all through my career 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.159 was specifically looking out for my professional development. I was 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.119 the one that needed to do that. In your article, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.800 you mentioned that you've had the experience of working for 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.720 people quite a bit younger than you. I'm wondering what 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:14.760 that was like. You know that took some adjustment for 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.440 me to work for people who were younger. When you 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.920 work in tech for a long time, you expect that 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.720 the norm is not the most senior people with the 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.240 most tenure are on top. That's not how it works 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.640 right in tech, but very well documented. So that was 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.440 not my expectation. I for a brief time when I 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.120 first got to Google, I thought, well, they're going to 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:44.480 need my management experience and my sort of overall maturity 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:47.880 as the company continues to grow. And they did. But 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.040 it wasn't an automatic gimme and the way I thought 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:55.240 it would be, because at the same time, the population 0:07:55.360 --> 0:08:01.720 is such that um people who are very energetic, enthusiastic 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:05.160 are the ones that you want to give incentives to 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.520 and have them learn how to do these things, a 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.360 philosophy that I understood. But at the same time that 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:15.080 meant that along the way, I worked for people who 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:20.440 were at a minimum twenty years younger than me, and 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:22.920 you know, some understood who I was and what my 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.840 value was and didn't sort of peck me to death. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:28.680 And then there were some who, you know, felt they 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.800 had to show off that they were quote managing and 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:34.600 and and they did. So there were you know, there 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.240 were there were some hard moments, uh, all around. But 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.400 the other thing in tech is you don't tend to 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.920 stay in one The organization shift around you. So I 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.560 never had any any one manager for very long. It 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.199 just became kind of part of the landscape. I'm wondering 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.400 what that looked like when those younger managers who were 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:57.640 less comfortable working with someone older, what did that look 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:02.720 like when they pecked you to death. Pecking means micromanagement 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.440 in this case, or second guessing me, which I just 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.520 was not used to. So I won't I won't deny it. 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.720 I mean, there were there were tough times. There was 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:14.480 you know, one guy in particulars maybe maybe twenty years younger, 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.600 and he was itching to be promoted, and that meant 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.559 he had to have experience managing people, right, I mean 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.240 that he had to have that credential earned. And he 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:28.880 I don't I knew coming. I knew he was hired 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:30.680 as kind of a lone ranger. I knew he was 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.680 kind of a solo guy. But yet he wanted to 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:35.480 earn this because he really wanted to be the next 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:39.600 level of So I understood that maybe he didn't know 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.160 I was aware of it, but he he kind of 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.520 processed things and minutia and reporting on what I'd done 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:50.600 and that kind of thing. And you know, I did 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:53.640 it for a while, but we definitely had tension between us. 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:56.440 And finally I really thought about it hard, and I 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.800 really thought, you know, I'm not going to let him 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.440 get best of me, and this is going to change. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.360 So one day and one of our sit downs, I 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:07.920 just had a frank talk with him because we both 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.079 had felt the tension, and I said, look, you don't 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.800 like the tension. I don't like the tension. Let me 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.880 tell you what will work better in working with me. 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.760 This will and this other thing won't. The micro managing won't. 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.280 And you know you have to trust me. I'm willing 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.440 to go along with some of the things you think 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.200 you need to do, even though I questioned them. Let's 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.760 just try and make this work. And he really backed 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:33.440 off then, and um, you know, it went fine. And 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:38.480 then he rotated on to another to another group, and 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:41.040 I had a different manager and and it was a 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.280 different situation where they did trust me. So you know, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.360 it wasn't fun necessarily, but it wasn't horrible either, and 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.079 I got through it. Do you think this is something 0:10:51.160 --> 0:10:53.480 that's a little more widespread than just the companies you've 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.120 worked at or the tech industry, Like, have you heard 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:00.320 similar stories from your peers? I have, and it is 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.960 getting to be because, let's face it, generationally, it's just 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.559 the law of large numbers right thinning the ranks as 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.319 they get older, not because they're retiring. There may be 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.720 going to work for themselves. They're shifting out of the 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.800 big corporations, they've been downsized, whatever it is. And meanwhile 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.679 there's a new wave of now several waves of younger 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:25.120 people coming up. So it definitely happens. Especially I think 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.439 some companies feel like, not tech so much, but they 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.000 feel like we need to get some fresh blood in here. 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.679 It's kind of a fad in a way to say, 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:38.080 like we're proving that we're contemporary and tech savvy in 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:42.440 another industry for example. So yes, you certainly do hear 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.880 of it. And I suspect it's actually tougher outside of 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.360 tech because they have so many more norms about a 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.400 hierarchy than tech does. We've been talking about your specific experiences, 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.079 but what are some of the broader issues that older 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.920 workers face. Well, you know, since I wrote that article, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.600 have to say I had in mind older workers when 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.240 I was making suggestions about things like the ability to 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:10.560 have more flexible schedules and the ability to you know, 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:15.320 rotate shadow other teams, learn about other roles, rotate maybe 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.440 two other locations. But the fact is, it turns out, 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.240 and I heard from lots of readers on this that 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:25.360 that's that's true for returning moms, uh who have been 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:29.200 caretakers or had babies, that that's true for people who 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.920 have moved to a different area maybe because their partner 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.280 got a new job and they had to look. So 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:40.040 it turns out it's not just accommodating older workers, it's 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.600 it's also just good for everybody to have some more 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.520 inventive ways of managing you know, roles and tasks and 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.240 sort of being more creative about them. What were the 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.839 other some of the other recommendations you made in your 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.800 story for how companies can better address age differences. Well, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.520 one that is kind of maybe an easier one to 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.959 do is team socializing. Right, So it's a good idea 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.320 for teams to let off steam and get to know 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.679 each other a little bit outside the office, even if 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.920 it's at an off site or some other work related thing. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.040 But I've been in situations and I know of people 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.800 who have had tougher ones that I have. Where you know, 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.079 the the off site or the quote fun activity, it's 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.439 definitely not geared to not just age, but just different 0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:31.120 kinds of people. So if it's rock climbing, or if 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:35.520 it's I don't know, paintball or something, you know, these 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.000 are maybe gonna lend themselves to the widest spectrum of 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.959 the team. And yet there's sort of a political price 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:46.640 to pay if you don't participate. So I would encourage 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.480 you know, managers and leaders to think about, let's put 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:56.000 some parameters around the work related social stuff. What would 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.760 be best to accommodate truly everybody in the group, because 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.360 of should find out that you know, there's this one 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.440 is is a recovering alcoholic, or this other one has 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:08.880 little kids and is a single mom or dead, and 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.760 so you you want to accommodate everyone's a schedule to 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.720 the best of your ability, and to accommodate the kinds 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:20.120 of activities where people can can get to know each 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:23.680 other and socialize without having this these sort of rigorous 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:29.080 physical tests or non work our tests. What would that 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:33.040 be like, Well, it would be like, let's go to 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.000 a place right after work. I've I've actually had teams 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.280 where we've done this many times where you break early, 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.400 you leave at four four thirty, and you go to 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.920 not just a bar, but a bar and restaurant that 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.520 serves food and people can just sit around and socialize. 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:52.680 They don't all have to drink, and you can have 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:54.920 a thing where you change seats at some point and 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.720 get to know someone else. Things like that that are 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.440 a little bit more or Volunteer activities is another thing 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:04.360 that is a great way to have people work on 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.840 teams together for whether it's a food bank or something 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.280 like that. That can be actually a lot of fun 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:12.960 and you're doing good and it's kind of interesting to 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.120 see how the team work goes and help people throw 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:20.640 themselves into it where you're working together to help some 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:25.400 worthy local organization, you know, get get something done. We 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:29.760 hear a lot about benefits that cater to millennials because 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.360 they're desirable to hire, So like student debt benefits and 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:37.360 parental leave. What are some benefits older workers might want. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.560 A big one that comes to mind, honestly is ways 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:46.160 to help with elder care right because boomers and even 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:50.120 actually the next generation up um are now looking after 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:55.880 elderly parents or grandparents, and that has all kinds of 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.240 challenges to it, depending on the situation, and sometimes it 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.960 requires a leave from work, or sometimes it requires just 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.720 um being able to make calls from work to talk 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.200 to the doctor, or to make appointments. Any number of 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.600 things can come out of uh, some kind of elder care. 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.520 I did this on my own. I was at Google, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.520 which treated me very wonderfully as I as I did it, 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.320 but I was a long distance caretaker for my mom 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:26.720 and I had a good experience, uh fortunately. But I 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.560 know lots of people really struggle with this, So that 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:33.520 that's one kind of idea. What if, in a worst 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.680 case scenario, you are at a company that really isn't 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.520 treating its older workers better, what recourse might you have? 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:45.360 Age discrimination cases, I've come to understand are very difficult 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.880 to pursue and to prove so and that's never a 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.000 first resort anyway. It's good to document what's what the 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:58.320 experiences and to talk to someone outside about it. But sometimes, honestly, 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.600 it's a it's a tough thing. It's it's either if 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:05.320 you can patch things together just for you personally with 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.119 the people you work with. It's kind of off the books, 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.320 an informal great if people are just downright treating you miserably. 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.200 I mean, I'd love to say you've got to get out, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.680 and I know that's harder to do in some cases 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.000 when you are older. So I'm afraid I don't have 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.960 a good, you know, one size fits all solution for that. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.120 And one final question, as you mentioned that you've got 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.040 response to your article, where are some of the stories 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.879 you were hearing from other people who did feel that 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.600 age had been an issue in their career. Actually, what 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.600 I heard I mentioned I was referencing earlier, which was 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.760 I heard from people uh, pretty much from thirty five 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:48.000 up saying A, this is familiar to me, and be 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.280 um what you're suggesting as some fixes work for me 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.280 a new mom, or work for me returning to the workforce, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:58.800 or work for me you know, needing to work part 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.520 time because I'm a student. So again, it wasn't a 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.879 matter of just um age related fixes alone or suggestions. 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:09.120 It was Oh, these things can help a number of 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.720 people at different times in their lives, which I think 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:13.880 is actually the better way to think about it than 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.240 just let's have a checklist for this category of worker 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.360 and then well will be done. That that should never 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:27.240 be the way employers, you know, approached their their workforce. Anyway, Well, 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.000 thank you so much for taking the time and talking 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.560 to us. You're quite welcome. I'm happy to be here. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:41.119 Karen's experience kind of runs counter to the stereotypes that 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.920 we've been hearing about the generations. Um. She said that 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.240 she got used to working with people who are younger 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:49.080 than her, and she ran into problems, but it kind 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.359 of sounded like problems you would run into with any manager. Yeah, 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:56.359 it just drives home the message that it's wrong to 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:59.639 go into any situation assuming that every older employee is 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.119 going to be kind of set in their ways and 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:06.960 hanging onto older traditions, and that every you know, young 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:11.200 upstart boss is going to be really entitled and arrogant. Yeah. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.800 And I think the problem was more that she was 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.960 working in a workplace that was homogeneous in a way 0:19:16.000 --> 0:19:19.920 that was different from her and at times didn't recognize that. 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:23.040 And she gave suggestions for what some companies could do 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.840 to better include people who are older workers. And there's 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:30.600 even more that some companies are doing so As of fourteen, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:34.879 at least CBS had the Snowbirds program where they would 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.879 fly down workers to Florida for the winter months, and 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.560 the people who like to use that were the older 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:43.640 workers who didn't want to be in the cold climates 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:47.400 and the winter months. I think that's very creative. And 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:49.600 you know, some of the other things that she mentioned, 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:54.600 including just like making work events less geared towards boozy 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.840 late nights and stuff, as she said, didn't just benefit 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.200 people like her. They've benefited people who needed flexible schedules, 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.919 people with elderly relatives that they were taking care of, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.000 people with families. And it's just like so many things 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.480 that we end up talking about on this show. Whenever 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:14.199 there's an initiative that helps one group, it tends to 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.360 help other groups as well. So I think that can 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.399 be helpful. When companies think they're doing something that's really 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.119 catering towards a small group, they're actually probably helping out 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:24.320 a bunch of different groups of people in their company 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.480 that they haven't necessarily thought of before. Yeah, and even 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.879 now those millennials are starting to age into having families 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:34.560 and we'll need some of those benefits too. And now 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:41.199 it's time for half big takes, half fake takes. You 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.320 can always call in with your own half bag take 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.639 at two and two six seven zero one six six. 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:48.959 This week we have a listener half big take from 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.080 Chris Mac who tweeted at us. He said, to add 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.560 on to your escalator half baked take. People that walk 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.520 left and then suddenly stopped near the end dangerous, Please 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.080 keep game. There's so much danger on the escalator. I 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.480 don't know what people are thinking, honestly. Yeah, I get 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.600 various stressed out when somebody pulls out their phone towards 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:14.240 the end of the escalators. That stuff that stuck the 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.040 escalator exit is a challenge, even if you're like fully 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.920 tuned into your surroundings. And I don't know why you 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:23.919 would walk the whole time and then become parallezed at 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.200 the key moment when you actually need to move the fastest. Yeah. 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:28.720 I don't think there are two sides to this happig take. No, 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.159 it's just it's more support for my genius idea, my 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.639 million dollar idea of walking school, which a lot of 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.280 people in New York and probably even more people in 0:21:38.400 --> 0:21:42.200 other states need to go to. Definitely all right, Francesco 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:44.800 what is your brilliant idea that you must share with 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:49.600 the world. So reply all email chains get a lot 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:53.320 of flak for just being the worst. UM. We experience 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.840 them at work. You know, one person sends an email 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:57.800 to a million people and then everybody replies all on 0:21:57.840 --> 0:21:59.760 the chain goes on forever and it's to leave listen 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:05.520 just extually life heck. But I my have big take 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.000 is that there are actually some reply all email chains 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:12.480 that are not that annoying. So I cannot think of any, 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:14.720 but you must have been. Okay, I'm on one right now. 0:22:14.800 --> 0:22:18.040 So I'm on like a forty five email long thread 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.080 UM that started several months ago, and it's with I 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:23.800 will admit it's not work related, it's social, but it's 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:26.520 all of the people that, um, the couple I'm going 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.920 on vacation next week and there's a couple other families involved, 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.360 and we're all emailing each other about the vacation and 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:37.960 everybody has responded to everybody with the most my new details, 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:42.480 like their flight information and their random idea about where 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.760 we should go on this day. And it's like, it's 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:47.560 not totally necessary and I really want to be annoyed 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.040 by it, Like I want to be like people come 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:51.640 on like, let's let's but every time I get every 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:53.960 time I see that that thread got longer, it makes 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.119 me think of my vacations. What makes me happy, because 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:58.560 that's about a fun thing. Yeah, even if the emails 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.199