1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,316 --> 00:00:23,276 Speaker 2: Curtis Emerson LeMay, who for the better part of twenty 3 00:00:23,276 --> 00:00:25,996 Speaker 2: five years dominated the greatest fighting force the world had 4 00:00:25,996 --> 00:00:31,276 Speaker 2: ever known, had three nicknames, Old Iron Pants, the Demon, 5 00:00:32,196 --> 00:00:38,716 Speaker 2: and bombs Away LeMay. He was not that category of 6 00:00:38,796 --> 00:00:42,316 Speaker 2: leader who led by force of wit, charm and charisma. 7 00:00:42,716 --> 00:00:45,076 Speaker 2: Nor was he some great thinker, the kind of leader 8 00:00:45,116 --> 00:00:50,076 Speaker 2: whose appeal lies with carefully thought out manifestos and elaborate ideologies. 9 00:00:50,756 --> 00:00:52,556 Speaker 2: Le Maay never took his cigar out of his mouth 10 00:00:52,596 --> 00:00:56,516 Speaker 2: long enough to say anything. He belonged to a different category, 11 00:00:57,116 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 2: the one that gets overlooked. 12 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:01,876 Speaker 1: Curtis LeMay. In my view, he was the greatest air 13 00:01:01,916 --> 00:01:03,116 Speaker 1: commander in history. 14 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:07,236 Speaker 2: I'm talking to the military historian Conrad Crane. No historian 15 00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:10,396 Speaker 2: writes about the Second World War out considering the legacy 16 00:01:10,396 --> 00:01:10,836 Speaker 2: of LeMay. 17 00:01:11,236 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: Everything he touched he transformed. He was a dynamic leader. 18 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:18,956 Speaker 1: He shared the difficulties of his airman. He was the 19 00:01:18,956 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 1: best navigator of the Air Force I had it, was 20 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:23,596 Speaker 1: a great pilot, He could do mechanics stuff. He was 21 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:26,716 Speaker 1: the Air Force's ultimate problem solver. But he was one 22 00:01:26,756 --> 00:01:28,796 Speaker 1: of those guys that you would if you gave him 23 00:01:28,836 --> 00:01:30,596 Speaker 1: a problem to fix, you didn't ask a whole lot 24 00:01:30,596 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: of questions. 25 00:01:30,996 --> 00:01:33,716 Speaker 2: Harry was going to do it bombs away. LeMay was 26 00:01:33,716 --> 00:01:39,396 Speaker 2: known as someone you get the job done. My name 27 00:01:39,436 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 2: is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast 28 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:48,756 Speaker 2: about things Overlooked and Misunderstood. This is part three of 29 00:01:48,796 --> 00:01:51,436 Speaker 2: my four part series about Curtis le May and the 30 00:01:51,436 --> 00:02:00,076 Speaker 2: events of March nineteen forty five. This episode is about 31 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:02,396 Speaker 2: the role of people like Curtis le May in times 32 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:06,276 Speaker 2: of crisis. In the normal course of events, we are 33 00:02:06,356 --> 00:02:10,876 Speaker 2: led by people of ideas and people of arristhma. But 34 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 2: when things start to go badly, those people get pushed 35 00:02:14,156 --> 00:02:19,276 Speaker 2: aside and the problem solver takes center stage. Only the 36 00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:30,076 Speaker 2: problem solver doesn't play by the same moral rules. Let 37 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 2: me give you an example of what it means to 38 00:02:32,196 --> 00:02:34,916 Speaker 2: approach the world the way someone like Curtis LeMay did. 39 00:02:35,876 --> 00:02:38,516 Speaker 2: It's not one of the signature stories in the LeMay legend. 40 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:42,076 Speaker 2: It happened long before he was famous, years before the 41 00:02:42,076 --> 00:02:45,556 Speaker 2: Second World War. He would mention it sometimes in passing 42 00:02:45,956 --> 00:02:48,956 Speaker 2: in some of the interviews he gave in retirement, but 43 00:02:48,996 --> 00:02:52,676 Speaker 2: it's one of those stories that made me stop and say, oh, 44 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:58,876 Speaker 2: I think I understand him now. In nineteen thirty seven, 45 00:02:59,116 --> 00:03:02,156 Speaker 2: with the threat of war in Europe growing, the Army's 46 00:03:02,196 --> 00:03:05,436 Speaker 2: Air Corps wanted a chance to practice their bombing technique, 47 00:03:06,316 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 2: real world practice, only with dummy bombs fifty pounders filled 48 00:03:11,076 --> 00:03:11,516 Speaker 2: with water. 49 00:03:12,276 --> 00:03:15,196 Speaker 3: I'mt me tell you the story of that. I mentioned 50 00:03:15,196 --> 00:03:17,236 Speaker 3: that the Air Force has been battling to make a 51 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 3: contribution to the fans of the country ever since I've 52 00:03:21,436 --> 00:03:24,796 Speaker 3: done around, nobody paid much attention to it. 53 00:03:26,036 --> 00:03:28,076 Speaker 2: This is an interview LeMay gave to the Air Force 54 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:31,356 Speaker 2: Academy in nineteen seventy one, a few years after leaving 55 00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:33,596 Speaker 2: his post as Chief of Staff of the Air Force. 56 00:03:34,116 --> 00:03:36,876 Speaker 2: When he was taking the post retirement victory lap, a 57 00:03:36,996 --> 00:03:38,076 Speaker 2: famous generals take. 58 00:03:38,716 --> 00:03:41,596 Speaker 3: We wanted an exercise, or we could drop bomb on 59 00:03:41,676 --> 00:03:42,436 Speaker 3: a battleship. 60 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 2: Find a battleship for the practice run. To work, the 61 00:03:47,036 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 2: Air Corps needed the Navy to play along. Hide a 62 00:03:49,916 --> 00:03:53,076 Speaker 2: battleship out on the seas, give out its coordinates at 63 00:03:53,076 --> 00:03:55,636 Speaker 2: the last minute, and dare the bombers to find it. 64 00:03:56,396 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 2: This was before sophisticated radar and navigation aids. To find 65 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 2: a battleship, you had to see it with your eyes, 66 00:04:02,556 --> 00:04:05,676 Speaker 2: then hit its narrow decks with a bomb from thousands 67 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:08,396 Speaker 2: of feet up, all the while flying at hundreds of 68 00:04:08,436 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 2: miles an hour. The Navy was not enthusiastic. 69 00:04:14,436 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 3: Finally, they agreed that they would have an exercise and 70 00:04:18,796 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 3: it would be in August off the West coast. Now 71 00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:26,636 Speaker 3: in August off the west coast, there's nothing but fog 72 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:31,716 Speaker 3: for a thousand miles out there, and they deliberately picked 73 00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:33,476 Speaker 3: it for this time. I'm sure. 74 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 2: How could you spot a battleship in one thousand miles 75 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:42,876 Speaker 2: of fog. To make matters worse, the Navy bent the rules. 76 00:04:43,196 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 2: The agreement was to have the wargame run for twenty 77 00:04:45,476 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 2: four hours from noon the first day until noon the next, 78 00:04:49,316 --> 00:04:51,676 Speaker 2: but the Navy didn't give out the coordinates of its ship, 79 00:04:51,996 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 2: the uss Utah, until late the first afternoon, and the 80 00:04:56,076 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 2: cordinates they gave were wrong, off by sixty miles one 81 00:05:00,636 --> 00:05:04,996 Speaker 2: thousand miles of fog. Late directions, fake directions a needle 82 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 2: in a haystack would have been easier at ten minutes before. 83 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:12,876 Speaker 2: At the very last moment, le May found the ship 84 00:05:13,396 --> 00:05:19,476 Speaker 2: and dropped his bombs. Now, of course he found the ship, 85 00:05:19,796 --> 00:05:21,676 Speaker 2: there was nothing Li May could not do if he 86 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 2: put his mind to it. That's not the point of 87 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 2: the story. The point is what happened before he dropped 88 00:05:27,756 --> 00:05:31,316 Speaker 2: his bombs. The Navy was certain they couldn't be found, 89 00:05:31,676 --> 00:05:34,756 Speaker 2: so they took no precautions. The sailors were all over 90 00:05:34,796 --> 00:05:37,316 Speaker 2: the decks going about their business. They were supposed to 91 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,916 Speaker 2: take cover in a bombing exercise. They didn't. So what 92 00:05:41,036 --> 00:05:45,956 Speaker 2: did LeMay do? He bombed the Utah anyway, raining fifty 93 00:05:45,996 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 2: pound water bombs down on the sailors. 94 00:05:48,836 --> 00:05:51,836 Speaker 3: And the Navy was so sure that they weren't going 95 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:53,756 Speaker 3: to be found. I don't know if that bog die 96 00:05:54,036 --> 00:05:56,636 Speaker 3: like it, but the men were all over the decks, 97 00:05:56,876 --> 00:06:03,116 Speaker 3: everybody diving for the gang plank patches and way hard 98 00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:06,596 Speaker 3: rumors that there are a few people part a little bit. 99 00:06:09,556 --> 00:06:12,076 Speaker 2: Imagine how other types of leaders might have handled the 100 00:06:12,116 --> 00:06:15,276 Speaker 2: decision to bomb after seeing sailors out in the deck. 101 00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:19,316 Speaker 2: The thinker would have understood the moral dimensions of willingly 102 00:06:19,356 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 2: harming one of your own in the course of a 103 00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 2: routine training exercise. The charismatic leader would have wondered, what 104 00:06:25,836 --> 00:06:28,396 Speaker 2: will my own men think of me if they see 105 00:06:28,396 --> 00:06:31,356 Speaker 2: that I am capable of such a casual act of brutality. 106 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:35,556 Speaker 2: But the problem solver. The problem was to find the 107 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 2: Utah and bomb it, and so he bombs it. 108 00:06:40,436 --> 00:06:45,196 Speaker 3: I'd rather have somebody who is real stupid. I did 109 00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:50,076 Speaker 3: something and even it was wrong, alre he did something, 110 00:06:51,516 --> 00:06:53,876 Speaker 3: and I have somebody who would vacilate and do nothing. 111 00:06:57,236 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 2: You cannot do nothing in the world view of the 112 00:07:00,116 --> 00:07:03,476 Speaker 2: problem solver, even if what you end up doing is horrifying. 113 00:07:05,636 --> 00:07:08,476 Speaker 2: In his memoirs, LeMay says they were rumors for years 114 00:07:08,476 --> 00:07:10,876 Speaker 2: that some sale got killed in the bombing exercise of 115 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:15,676 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven, and then he says, quote, I remember 116 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 2: watching the first bomb, which smashed into the deck. It 117 00:07:19,076 --> 00:07:22,716 Speaker 2: sent splintered pieces of wood flying in every direction. I 118 00:07:22,756 --> 00:07:27,036 Speaker 2: hadn't realized that wood could frag like that. It was 119 00:07:27,236 --> 00:07:31,796 Speaker 2: a learning opportunity. Who knew wood reacted that way? He 120 00:07:31,876 --> 00:07:37,596 Speaker 2: files that fact away and goes on to the next problem. 121 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:40,996 Speaker 2: In the first years of the Second World War, the 122 00:07:41,076 --> 00:07:44,676 Speaker 2: American fight against the Japanese was defined by a single fact. 123 00:07:45,516 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 2: Japan was beyond the reach of the US Air Force. 124 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 2: The American workhorse bomber was the B seventeen. It had 125 00:07:52,596 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 2: a range of roughly two thousand miles. That's a thousand 126 00:07:56,076 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 2: miles out and one thousand miles back. Now, look at 127 00:07:59,756 --> 00:08:02,076 Speaker 2: a map of the world from say, January of nineteen 128 00:08:02,116 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 2: forty four, and try and find an air base controlled 129 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:08,876 Speaker 2: by the Allies that is within one thousand miles of 130 00:08:08,916 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 2: tow You can't. And if you can't reach Japan, how 131 00:08:14,116 --> 00:08:17,316 Speaker 2: on earth are you going to defeat them? The solution 132 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:19,876 Speaker 2: comes in two parts. 133 00:08:21,796 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 4: This is where it began, here in the exact geographic 134 00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:31,436 Speaker 4: center of the United States, Grand Island, Nebraska. 135 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 2: That voice sounds familiar, doesn't it. It's fron of Reagan. 136 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:40,676 Speaker 2: Long before he became president, Reagan narrated newsreels during the 137 00:08:40,676 --> 00:08:41,436 Speaker 2: Second World War. 138 00:08:41,956 --> 00:08:43,876 Speaker 4: The men were brought here from every corner of the 139 00:08:43,916 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 4: country and a few corners outside the country. 140 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:49,196 Speaker 3: They were a. 141 00:08:49,036 --> 00:08:53,836 Speaker 4: Hand picked American mixture of draftees and west pointers, of butchers, 142 00:08:53,916 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 4: teachers and bankers, of your sons, husbands, and fathers. 143 00:09:00,996 --> 00:09:05,436 Speaker 2: In the newsreel, we see soldiers arriving in barracks, handsome 144 00:09:05,876 --> 00:09:10,676 Speaker 2: crisp uniforms, all gazing up at a magnificent and gleaming airplane. 145 00:09:11,116 --> 00:09:16,196 Speaker 4: She was a B twenty nine, the superport designed to 146 00:09:16,236 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 4: carry more destruction and carry it higher, faster, farther than 147 00:09:21,516 --> 00:09:26,076 Speaker 4: any bomber ever built before. And to complete this mission, 148 00:09:26,756 --> 00:09:28,876 Speaker 4: That's exactly what she was going to have to do. 149 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:34,316 Speaker 2: She The B twenty nine was one of the great 150 00:09:34,356 --> 00:09:38,476 Speaker 2: achievements of the American war effort, an enormous bomber dedicated 151 00:09:38,796 --> 00:09:41,676 Speaker 2: entirely to the fight against the Japanese. In the Wars 152 00:09:41,716 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 2: specific theater, the B twenty nine's range fifty six hundred 153 00:09:46,236 --> 00:09:50,836 Speaker 2: miles much better than its predecessor. So then came the 154 00:09:50,916 --> 00:09:54,476 Speaker 2: second step. In the summer of nineteen forty four, in 155 00:09:54,556 --> 00:09:56,916 Speaker 2: some of the most brutal fighting of the war, the 156 00:09:56,956 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 2: Marines captured three tiny specks in the middle of the 157 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 2: Western Pacific, the Mariana Islands, Guam, Saipan, and Tinian. Why 158 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 2: were they captured because the Marianna is with thirteen hundred 159 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:15,356 Speaker 2: and forty two miles from Tokyo, straight shot across the ocean, 160 00:10:16,516 --> 00:10:19,876 Speaker 2: put the B twenty nine together with the Marianas, and 161 00:10:19,956 --> 00:10:22,476 Speaker 2: overnight the odds of beating Japan shifted. 162 00:10:23,716 --> 00:10:27,636 Speaker 1: June of nineteen forty four is a arguably the most 163 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:30,356 Speaker 1: important month of the war. You have D Day and 164 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:33,716 Speaker 1: where we go ashore in northwest Europe, you have the 165 00:10:33,756 --> 00:10:37,956 Speaker 1: invasion of the Marianas and the Pacific, the final breaking 166 00:10:38,036 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: of the internal defense line of the Japanese, the fall 167 00:10:42,756 --> 00:10:46,156 Speaker 1: of the Tojo government because of that. So all that 168 00:10:46,156 --> 00:10:47,556 Speaker 1: stuff happens in that same month. 169 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:51,316 Speaker 2: Throughout the summer and fall of nineteen forty four, the 170 00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:54,396 Speaker 2: Navy built massive bases on each of the captured islands 171 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 2: of the Mariannas. The biggest base contained the largest airport 172 00:10:58,476 --> 00:11:03,356 Speaker 2: in the world that was on tinian six runways, the 173 00:11:03,396 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 2: equivalent of three Boulder dams with a concrete and when 174 00:11:07,356 --> 00:11:10,596 Speaker 2: they were finished, the military again flying in brand new 175 00:11:10,676 --> 00:11:14,596 Speaker 2: B twenty nine bombers, hundreds of them. 176 00:11:14,836 --> 00:11:18,596 Speaker 4: Their final base was no longer a mystery. Four thousand 177 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 4: miles farther west, with only one refueling stop on the way, 178 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:27,796 Speaker 4: lay the island of Saipan. Less than four months before, 179 00:11:28,476 --> 00:11:30,556 Speaker 4: it had still been in the hands of the Japanese. 180 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:34,596 Speaker 2: To head up the newly created B twenty nine strike 181 00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:38,436 Speaker 2: force known as the twenty first Bomber Command, the military 182 00:11:38,436 --> 00:11:41,116 Speaker 2: brass brought in a high priest of the bomber mafia, 183 00:11:41,716 --> 00:11:49,036 Speaker 2: a brilliant young general named Hayward Hansel. Hayward Hansel came 184 00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:53,516 Speaker 2: from an aristocratic Southern military family. His great grandfather was 185 00:11:53,596 --> 00:11:58,036 Speaker 2: a general in the Confederate Army, his grandfather a Confederate officer. 186 00:11:59,076 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 2: Hansel's father had been an army surgeon who came to 187 00:12:01,796 --> 00:12:04,716 Speaker 2: dinner in a white linen suit and a panama hat. 188 00:12:05,116 --> 00:12:08,276 Speaker 2: Hansel himself was a skilled dancer, a poet, and an 189 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:12,516 Speaker 2: aficionado of Gilbert and Sullivan operettas. His favorite book was 190 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 2: Don Quixote. He felt a connection with the knight tilting 191 00:12:15,756 --> 00:12:20,396 Speaker 2: at windmills. He put flying first, Polo second, and family 192 00:12:20,636 --> 00:12:24,516 Speaker 2: a distant third. Once the story goes early in his marriage, 193 00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:26,836 Speaker 2: he heard a baby cry and turned to his wife, 194 00:12:27,156 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 2: what's that sound. That's your son, she said. He liked 195 00:12:32,156 --> 00:12:35,596 Speaker 2: to carry a swagger stick, like the English army officers did. 196 00:12:37,796 --> 00:12:40,836 Speaker 2: As a child, he was nicknamed Possum because of the 197 00:12:40,956 --> 00:12:46,236 Speaker 2: narrowness of his face. The name stuck. On his final 198 00:12:46,396 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 2: mission as a pilot, a bombing run over Belgium, Hensel 199 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:52,956 Speaker 2: entertained his exhausted crew with a rendition of the popular 200 00:12:53,076 --> 00:12:57,756 Speaker 2: music hall song The Man on the Flying Trapeze. This 201 00:12:57,876 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 2: is the most famous version. Eddie canters, Oh. 202 00:13:03,996 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 5: He floats through the air with the greatest evise, this 203 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:10,916 Speaker 5: daring young man, and I'm the flying trabbe. 204 00:13:11,396 --> 00:13:12,516 Speaker 4: His actions are. 205 00:13:12,436 --> 00:13:15,876 Speaker 2: Graceful, old girls, He does please, and my love was 206 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:21,676 Speaker 2: soolen away. Of all the bombing fundamentalists to come out 207 00:13:21,716 --> 00:13:24,956 Speaker 2: of the Air Corps tactical school, Heyward Hansel was the 208 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:31,996 Speaker 2: truest believer the idealist airpower, intelligently and surgically deployed could 209 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:35,316 Speaker 2: bring any enemy to its knees well. 210 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:40,836 Speaker 5: The first operation against Japam was called San Antonio one. 211 00:13:41,196 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 5: It was coordinated with the Joint Cheese of Staff strategy, 212 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:48,076 Speaker 5: which made the timing extremely important. As a matter of fact, 213 00:13:48,116 --> 00:13:50,556 Speaker 5: we were going. We were in some danger of standin 214 00:13:50,636 --> 00:13:51,916 Speaker 5: of falling on this operation. 215 00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:55,796 Speaker 2: When Possum Hansel takes over in the Mariannas in nineteen 216 00:13:55,836 --> 00:13:59,676 Speaker 2: forty four, he says to himself, what is the critical 217 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:04,156 Speaker 2: vulnerability of the Japanese war economy? What can my newbe 218 00:14:04,356 --> 00:14:08,236 Speaker 2: twenty nine's attack. The answer to him is obvious. The 219 00:14:08,316 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 2: Japanese air craft manufacturing plants, which are almost entirely concentrated 220 00:14:13,356 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 2: in a few factories in and around Tokyo, in particular 221 00:14:17,476 --> 00:14:22,436 Speaker 2: the Nakajima Aircraft Company known as Subru. Today Nakajima made 222 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:25,996 Speaker 2: at least a third of all Japanese combat aircraft engines. 223 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:31,076 Speaker 2: Hansel said, let's hit Nakajima, and we'll cripple the Japanese 224 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 2: fighting force. The newsreel Ronald Reagan narrated, is all about 225 00:14:37,476 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 2: that first attack by Hansel on Nakajima. 226 00:14:40,516 --> 00:14:47,516 Speaker 4: Six hours later, through the clouds, they saw it, Fujiyama. 227 00:14:47,716 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 4: Here comes some modern symbols, phosphorus, bombs and flag. 228 00:14:56,316 --> 00:14:59,476 Speaker 2: The B twenty nine s traveled fifteen hundred miles from 229 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:03,236 Speaker 2: the Marianas, skimming over the ocean at several thousand feet. 230 00:15:03,876 --> 00:15:07,236 Speaker 2: As they approached Japan, they climbed twenty five or thirty 231 00:15:07,276 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 2: thousand feet out of harm's way. They turned at Mount Fuji, 232 00:15:11,236 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 2: then came in from the west over Tokyo. Here, speaking 233 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:19,876 Speaker 2: over aerial shots of the city, Reagan lays it on thick. 234 00:15:21,316 --> 00:15:24,196 Speaker 4: Within a radius of fifteen miles of the Imperial Palace 235 00:15:24,236 --> 00:15:28,196 Speaker 4: lived seven million Japanese, a people we used to think 236 00:15:28,236 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 4: of as small, dainty, polite, concerning themselves only with floral 237 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:37,036 Speaker 4: arrangements and rock gardens and the cultivation of silkworms. But 238 00:15:37,116 --> 00:15:40,276 Speaker 4: it isn't silkworms, and it isn't Imperial Palace. As these 239 00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:44,636 Speaker 4: men are looking for in the suburbs of Tokyo is 240 00:15:44,676 --> 00:15:50,076 Speaker 4: the huge Nakajima aircraft plant. Well, bud, what are you 241 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:50,596 Speaker 4: waiting for? 242 00:15:53,556 --> 00:15:58,676 Speaker 2: Like I said? He dated on a little thick That 243 00:15:58,796 --> 00:16:03,676 Speaker 2: first mission, San Antonio I was hugely symbolic proof that 244 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:07,396 Speaker 2: Japan could finally be reached. But was it a success 245 00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:12,476 Speaker 2: as a military operation? After the war. Speaking to cadets 246 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:15,156 Speaker 2: at the Air Force Academy, Hansel tried to put a 247 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:16,196 Speaker 2: good face on things. 248 00:16:16,916 --> 00:16:20,196 Speaker 5: The operation wasn't because had light by un permission help it. 249 00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:23,956 Speaker 5: It did show that it could be done, and this 250 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:28,476 Speaker 5: was a very very Dunfeld issue. 251 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:28,636 Speaker 3: At the time. 252 00:16:29,916 --> 00:16:32,236 Speaker 2: The operation wasn't as good as we would have liked, 253 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:36,196 Speaker 2: was to say the least, an understatement. None of the 254 00:16:36,236 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 2: bombs dropped by Hansel's B twenty nine s actually hit 255 00:16:39,556 --> 00:16:43,236 Speaker 2: the Nakajima plant, so Hansel tried again three days later, 256 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:48,196 Speaker 2: same thing. Hansel sent mission after mission. On one of 257 00:16:48,236 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 2: his last attempts, he went back with seventy two B 258 00:16:51,076 --> 00:16:57,796 Speaker 2: twenty nines. They missed the plant and hit a hospital. Heyward, 259 00:16:57,796 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 2: Hansel couldn't solve the problem because the problem was much 260 00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 2: bigger than anyone at the time understood. Long after the war, 261 00:17:19,676 --> 00:17:23,796 Speaker 2: one of Heywood Hansel's B twenty nine pilots, Lieutenant Ed Hyatt, 262 00:17:24,156 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 2: was interviewed for a documentary by the BBC. 263 00:17:27,796 --> 00:17:30,916 Speaker 6: After flying six hours, we climbed up to bombing altitude. 264 00:17:31,116 --> 00:17:34,596 Speaker 6: We climbed up to thirty seven thousand feet and just 265 00:17:34,636 --> 00:17:36,876 Speaker 6: as we broke out of the storm, there's Mount Fuji 266 00:17:36,916 --> 00:17:39,956 Speaker 6: sitting right in front of us, and it's a gorgeous site. 267 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 1: It really is. 268 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:44,756 Speaker 2: Hyatt tried to describe what went wrong on those first 269 00:17:44,876 --> 00:17:48,676 Speaker 2: B twenty nine precision attacks on Tokyo. His bombardier, a 270 00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:51,716 Speaker 2: man named Glenn, starts to make his calculations on their 271 00:17:51,756 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 2: bomb site, lining up the Nakajima factory, but the telescope 272 00:17:56,036 --> 00:17:57,796 Speaker 2: on the bomb site wouldn't line up. 273 00:17:58,316 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 6: They turned around and he said, he said, I can't 274 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:05,876 Speaker 6: get this damn telescope on the target. And so we 275 00:18:06,196 --> 00:18:08,916 Speaker 6: called a radar operator check our ground speed and see 276 00:18:09,196 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 6: what our ground speed is. He came back and he says, 277 00:18:11,636 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 6: we got one hundred and twenty five tailwind. He said, 278 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:16,236 Speaker 6: we're going about four hundred and eighty miles an hour. 279 00:18:16,836 --> 00:18:19,716 Speaker 6: It's impossible, it can't be. There's no wins like that. 280 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 2: No Air Force pilots had ever experienced what was now 281 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 2: happening to the B twenty nine bombers over Japan. They 282 00:18:28,676 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 2: expected winds a fraction of these speeds. 283 00:18:32,356 --> 00:18:34,396 Speaker 6: We're going four hundred and eighty miles an hour when 284 00:18:34,396 --> 00:18:37,116 Speaker 6: we should be going three hundred and forty miles an hour. 285 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:42,036 Speaker 6: I said, well, Glenn dropped the damn bombs. He dropped 286 00:18:42,036 --> 00:18:44,476 Speaker 6: the bombs, and we were already twelve miles past the 287 00:18:44,516 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 6: target because of that wind. 288 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 2: They were bewildered, and back at base they couldn't explain 289 00:18:51,516 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 2: what happened to their superiors from. 290 00:18:54,556 --> 00:18:58,676 Speaker 6: The debriefed as they gave us a third degree, they said, no, 291 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 6: there is no such thing. There can't be a win 292 00:19:02,476 --> 00:19:05,196 Speaker 6: like that. You're a lion. You didn't make it over 293 00:19:05,236 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 6: the target. You're just making this up. 294 00:19:07,956 --> 00:19:10,636 Speaker 2: But one crew after another arrived back at the Marianas 295 00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:12,516 Speaker 2: and told the exact same story. 296 00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:16,716 Speaker 7: To tell you how powerful these winds were. A reconnaissance 297 00:19:16,756 --> 00:19:19,556 Speaker 7: plane went up on time to take some pictures after 298 00:19:19,636 --> 00:19:22,396 Speaker 7: a mission to see how effective they'd been, and the 299 00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:25,836 Speaker 7: navigator called the pilot and told him they were going 300 00:19:25,876 --> 00:19:29,996 Speaker 7: three miles an hour backwards. That was something you couldn't 301 00:19:29,996 --> 00:19:32,236 Speaker 7: afford to do, because if you went from east to west, 302 00:19:32,276 --> 00:19:34,796 Speaker 7: you were going to be a sitting duck for Japanese 303 00:19:34,796 --> 00:19:36,036 Speaker 7: fighters or their flag. 304 00:19:37,556 --> 00:19:41,476 Speaker 2: To solve that puzzle, Hensel turned to his team of meteorologists. 305 00:19:42,076 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 2: They'd all been trained at the University of Chicago. Back then, 306 00:19:45,316 --> 00:19:49,276 Speaker 2: in the days before a sophisticated radar, meteorologists were crucial 307 00:19:49,316 --> 00:19:52,236 Speaker 2: to the success of bombing campaigns. If you were doing 308 00:19:52,276 --> 00:19:54,916 Speaker 2: a daylight bombing run over a city, you had to 309 00:19:54,956 --> 00:19:57,796 Speaker 2: see the target in order to line up the bomb site, 310 00:19:57,996 --> 00:20:01,076 Speaker 2: and if the skies were too cloudy, that was impossible. 311 00:20:01,796 --> 00:20:04,236 Speaker 2: So going or not going on a mission hinged on 312 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 2: the weather forecast. But the tools available to meteorologists of 313 00:20:08,476 --> 00:20:13,596 Speaker 2: that era were crude. The easiest thing to forget about 314 00:20:13,596 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 2: the Second World War is that it was another technological era. 315 00:20:17,676 --> 00:20:21,836 Speaker 2: It's half twentieth century and half nineteenth century. The chief 316 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:25,956 Speaker 2: tool of the meteorologists of that time were balloons weather 317 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 2: balloons that would float up into the atmosphere, carrying little 318 00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:33,156 Speaker 2: instrument kits that could record the wind, the temperature, and 319 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:38,636 Speaker 2: the humidity and transmit that information back to Earth. I 320 00:20:38,676 --> 00:20:41,676 Speaker 2: asked John Lewis about those days he's a scientist at 321 00:20:41,676 --> 00:20:44,876 Speaker 2: the Desert Research Institute in Nevada. He knew a number 322 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:47,356 Speaker 2: of the meteorologists who worked with the Air Force during 323 00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:50,836 Speaker 2: the war. Are these balloons they can forgive me? It's 324 00:20:50,876 --> 00:20:53,556 Speaker 2: a very naive question. Are they connected by a rope 325 00:20:53,636 --> 00:20:54,796 Speaker 2: or are they just free floating? 326 00:20:54,916 --> 00:20:55,076 Speaker 4: Oh? 327 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:55,916 Speaker 1: No, they're released. 328 00:20:56,036 --> 00:21:00,236 Speaker 8: They eventually, as the pressure gets lower, as the balloon 329 00:21:00,276 --> 00:21:04,276 Speaker 8: goes higher in the atmosphere, they expand, expand, expand. Kaboom, 330 00:21:04,636 --> 00:21:07,556 Speaker 8: they explode and they fall to the ground with the 331 00:21:07,596 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 8: instrument attached. And at that time they had a message 332 00:21:10,796 --> 00:21:13,916 Speaker 8: on all the instrument packages, could you please return this 333 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:16,476 Speaker 8: to the University of Chicago in. 334 00:21:16,436 --> 00:21:19,676 Speaker 2: The Pacific field of war. That technique wasn't going to work. 335 00:21:20,276 --> 00:21:23,156 Speaker 2: So there they were, the meteorologists in the middle of 336 00:21:23,156 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 2: the Pacific with one of the most important jobs in 337 00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 2: the whole outfit, figuring out when to send the bombers, 338 00:21:30,236 --> 00:21:39,556 Speaker 2: and they're baffled. What's with these winds? On a theoretical level, 339 00:21:40,276 --> 00:21:44,076 Speaker 2: Do they have a suspicion that there may be very 340 00:21:44,156 --> 00:21:46,356 Speaker 2: very high winds at high altitudes at the Air Force? 341 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:48,916 Speaker 2: Or is it that they don't reach that conclusion until 342 00:21:48,916 --> 00:21:50,476 Speaker 2: the pilots come back with their. 343 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 8: They did not reach their conclusions until the pilots came back. 344 00:21:55,476 --> 00:21:58,396 Speaker 2: What slowly became clear is that the pilots had stumbled 345 00:21:58,396 --> 00:22:02,916 Speaker 2: on a previously unknown phenomenon in the upper atmosphere, what 346 00:22:03,076 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 2: came to be known as the jet stream, a river 347 00:22:07,636 --> 00:22:10,516 Speaker 2: of fast flowing air that circles the globe starting at 348 00:22:10,556 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 2: around twenty thousand feet. Some scientists had theorized about the 349 00:22:14,556 --> 00:22:17,396 Speaker 2: jet stream, but until the B twenty nine was built, 350 00:22:17,676 --> 00:22:20,556 Speaker 2: almost no one had ever flown at altitudes high enough 351 00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:23,076 Speaker 2: to experience those winds firsthand. 352 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:31,716 Speaker 8: This vast stream of air, very narrow, moves from north 353 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:37,036 Speaker 8: to south in both hemispheres. Basically, it is dividing the 354 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:41,316 Speaker 8: very cold air of the polar regions from the more 355 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:46,156 Speaker 8: warm mid latitude and equatorial air. 356 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:50,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you say very narrow, how narrow. 357 00:22:50,196 --> 00:22:55,836 Speaker 8: I would say typically two hundred kilometers across something on 358 00:22:55,876 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 8: that order. So that's the narrowness of it. 359 00:23:00,276 --> 00:23:02,356 Speaker 2: And did it entirely encircle the Earth? 360 00:23:02,756 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 8: It does? 361 00:23:05,996 --> 00:23:08,836 Speaker 2: So what is the problem facing the pilots gathered on 362 00:23:08,876 --> 00:23:12,036 Speaker 2: the man that in the winter of nineteen forty four 363 00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:15,996 Speaker 2: and the early spring of nineteen forty five, this narrow 364 00:23:16,236 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 2: hurricane force band of air known as a jet stream, 365 00:23:18,956 --> 00:23:23,796 Speaker 2: happens to be directly over Japan, and that makes it 366 00:23:23,836 --> 00:23:27,316 Speaker 2: impossible for Hansel to do any of the precision bombing 367 00:23:27,436 --> 00:23:30,276 Speaker 2: that he had planned to do. If they fly across it, 368 00:23:30,556 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 2: the plane will get blown sideways. If they fly into it, 369 00:23:33,836 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 2: they'll be fighting to stay aloft and be easy targets 370 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,516 Speaker 2: for the Japanese. And if they fly with it, they'll 371 00:23:39,516 --> 00:23:42,916 Speaker 2: be racing too fast to take proper aim. In the 372 00:23:42,956 --> 00:23:46,316 Speaker 2: service of a conviction that bombing could bring Japan to 373 00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:49,556 Speaker 2: its knees, Thousands of Marines had been killed in the 374 00:23:49,596 --> 00:23:53,716 Speaker 2: fight to capture the Marianas. The construction of the three 375 00:23:53,756 --> 00:23:56,916 Speaker 2: island air bases had been one of the most intensive 376 00:23:57,316 --> 00:24:00,716 Speaker 2: engineering feats of the war. The B twenty nine was 377 00:24:00,796 --> 00:24:04,796 Speaker 2: a three billion dollar project that's forty three billion in 378 00:24:04,836 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 2: today's money. All of that investment in the air war 379 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:12,316 Speaker 2: against the Japanese by December of nineteen forty four had 380 00:24:12,356 --> 00:24:16,316 Speaker 2: come up empty. Hansel and all the other brass and 381 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:23,196 Speaker 2: the Marianas were bewildered. When a true believer discovers that 382 00:24:23,276 --> 00:24:28,796 Speaker 2: his God cannot save him, what's left nothing Heyward Hansel 383 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:34,796 Speaker 2: was finished in January of nineteen forty five, Hansel was 384 00:24:34,836 --> 00:24:37,756 Speaker 2: relieved of his post as head of the twenty first 385 00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:41,276 Speaker 2: bomber command. In his place was put the man you 386 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 2: bring in when all else has failed, Curtis le May. 387 00:24:47,476 --> 00:24:50,916 Speaker 2: Even decades later, possum Hansel would bristle when asked about 388 00:24:50,916 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 2: the circumstances of his departure and the person who replaced 389 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:57,236 Speaker 2: him in the Pacific. He had taught le May at 390 00:24:57,236 --> 00:25:00,316 Speaker 2: the Air Court Tactical School and was his commanding officer 391 00:25:00,316 --> 00:25:04,236 Speaker 2: in Europe. Here's Hansel again at the Air Force Academy 392 00:25:04,236 --> 00:25:07,116 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven. He's just been asked a name 393 00:25:07,156 --> 00:25:10,196 Speaker 2: who he felt were the finest officers of his generation. 394 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:15,876 Speaker 9: Among the people who I knew in my littleitary career, 395 00:25:16,876 --> 00:25:22,316 Speaker 9: I would say the three hank standing ones, John Marshall, 396 00:25:22,556 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 9: Joel Andrews and John Fradhn And they were outstanding for 397 00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:30,076 Speaker 9: pretty much the same reason they were man okay, character, 398 00:25:31,276 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 9: They were obviously intelligent man, but no a spersonal integrity 399 00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:36,556 Speaker 9: and character. 400 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:39,516 Speaker 8: General O May was one of your group commanders. 401 00:25:39,556 --> 00:25:41,476 Speaker 3: I not if you didn't put him in this. 402 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:46,716 Speaker 2: Last group, well exactly. Le May was not a patrician 403 00:25:47,116 --> 00:25:50,436 Speaker 2: with a swagger stick. He did not read Savantes and 404 00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:53,076 Speaker 2: sing musical theater to his crew at the end of 405 00:25:53,116 --> 00:25:57,316 Speaker 2: long missions. He had no time for demonstrations of personal 406 00:25:57,356 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 2: integrity and character. He had a problem to solve when 407 00:26:10,756 --> 00:26:13,956 Speaker 2: he takes over the twenty first bombing command. When he 408 00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:16,516 Speaker 2: first arrives in the Marianas, he does not have his 409 00:26:17,796 --> 00:26:21,036 Speaker 2: eventual strategy worked out. His mind is still open. 410 00:26:21,276 --> 00:26:23,196 Speaker 1: Yes, Zach, Yeah, that is correct. 411 00:26:23,516 --> 00:26:27,556 Speaker 2: I'm talking again with the military historian Conrad Crane about 412 00:26:27,636 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 2: Curtis the May after he takes over command from General 413 00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:34,716 Speaker 2: Heyward Hansell in January of nineteen forty five. I'm really 414 00:26:34,756 --> 00:26:38,596 Speaker 2: curious to sort of reconstruct his thought process, how he 415 00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:41,756 Speaker 2: all the reasons why he arrives at the strategy finally 416 00:26:41,836 --> 00:26:45,076 Speaker 2: arrives at So he begins by does he begin by 417 00:26:45,076 --> 00:26:46,836 Speaker 2: doing exactly what Hansel had done? 418 00:26:47,076 --> 00:26:49,676 Speaker 1: Well? He he walks in, and he looks around and 419 00:26:49,716 --> 00:26:52,236 Speaker 1: sees the primitive nature of the facilities that said this 420 00:26:52,276 --> 00:26:52,676 Speaker 1: won't do. 421 00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 2: Le May is not happy with the military's infrastructure on 422 00:26:56,276 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 2: the Mariannas. It was all built by the Navy's construction Battalion, 423 00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:03,876 Speaker 2: the Seabees. Le May has lost none of his disdain 424 00:27:03,956 --> 00:27:06,356 Speaker 2: for the Navy, the people who cheated in the bombing 425 00:27:06,396 --> 00:27:07,716 Speaker 2: exercise years before. 426 00:27:09,796 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 1: He gets invited to have dinner with Admiral Nimtz, who 427 00:27:14,596 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: also is headquartered in Marianna's And he goes over to 428 00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:19,876 Speaker 1: Nimbus's place and he's in this ornate almost a palace, 429 00:27:19,916 --> 00:27:23,316 Speaker 1: and he gets fed on the very formal naval style 430 00:27:23,396 --> 00:27:27,156 Speaker 1: dinner with the tablecloths and being served and everything. So 431 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:29,516 Speaker 1: he invites the Admiral Nimmos to visit him for dinner 432 00:27:30,116 --> 00:27:32,356 Speaker 1: in the next couple of days, and Admiral Nimmtz shows 433 00:27:32,436 --> 00:27:35,836 Speaker 1: up for his dinner and they're sitting in a quancert 434 00:27:35,876 --> 00:27:39,916 Speaker 1: hut on a couple of crates, eating sea rations. And 435 00:27:40,316 --> 00:27:42,036 Speaker 1: at the end of the end of the meal, Nimmits 436 00:27:42,076 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 1: looks at LeMay and says, I get your point. And 437 00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:49,276 Speaker 1: then he started sending more construction materials to La May 438 00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 1: to help finish up the rest of the facilities. 439 00:27:52,356 --> 00:27:56,036 Speaker 2: By the early spring of nineteen forty five, LeMay was ready. 440 00:27:57,396 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 2: He starts out by trying his own version of the 441 00:27:59,916 --> 00:28:03,596 Speaker 2: strategy taken by his predecessor. He decides to take out 442 00:28:03,596 --> 00:28:06,036 Speaker 2: the Nakajima aircraft planned in Tokyo. 443 00:28:07,476 --> 00:28:10,516 Speaker 1: His perception is is that he's still expected to do 444 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:13,636 Speaker 1: high altitude precision bombing, So he's going to do everything 445 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 1: he can to make sure that I how Toude precision 446 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:17,036 Speaker 1: bombing is going to be more effective. 447 00:28:18,116 --> 00:28:22,036 Speaker 2: Le May sends two missions against Nakajima in January, one 448 00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 2: in February another in early March. Hundreds of B twenty 449 00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:29,796 Speaker 2: nine's making the long trek to Japan, and in the 450 00:28:29,956 --> 00:28:33,876 Speaker 2: end the plant is still standing. He's run up against 451 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 2: the same obstacle as Hensel did. How can I force 452 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:41,116 Speaker 2: a Japanese surrender from the air if I can't hit anything. 453 00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 1: But when he realizes he's fixed all those problems, there's 454 00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:47,756 Speaker 1: nothing else he can tweak, you know, he says, Okay, 455 00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:48,916 Speaker 1: I'm gott to try something different. 456 00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:55,156 Speaker 2: Le May's first realization is that the jet stream is 457 00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:58,636 Speaker 2: a powerful force. It can't be wished away, and it's 458 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 2: making everything else impossible. The first principle of precision bombing 459 00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:07,516 Speaker 2: doctrine is that the bomber should come in high, well 460 00:29:07,556 --> 00:29:10,676 Speaker 2: above the range of enemy fire and anti aircraft guns. 461 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:14,836 Speaker 2: Le May throws it out the window. He decides to 462 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 2: be twenty nine's will have to fly at lower altitudes 463 00:29:18,716 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 2: under the jet. 464 00:29:19,356 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 1: Stream and once he realizes he's going to have to 465 00:29:21,796 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 1: go to lower altitude. Then that leads to a whole 466 00:29:25,116 --> 00:29:27,916 Speaker 1: set of other conclusions from that. 467 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:33,316 Speaker 2: Next logical step. Precision bombing was supposed to be daylight bombing. 468 00:29:33,676 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 2: You needed to see the target before you could line 469 00:29:36,276 --> 00:29:39,156 Speaker 2: up the bomb site. But if le Maay's bombers came 470 00:29:39,196 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 2: in low during the day, they would be sitting ducks 471 00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:45,996 Speaker 2: for the Japanese air defenses. So he decides they have 472 00:29:46,076 --> 00:29:47,716 Speaker 2: to come under cover of night. 473 00:29:48,156 --> 00:29:50,796 Speaker 1: Once you realize you can't go to a high altitude anymore, 474 00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:53,276 Speaker 1: it drives kind of the rest of his decision process. 475 00:29:54,196 --> 00:29:58,676 Speaker 2: Jetstream means low, low means night, and the decision to 476 00:29:58,676 --> 00:30:02,476 Speaker 2: switch to night raids means you can't do precision bombing anymore, 477 00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:05,396 Speaker 2: because there's no way with the technology of the time 478 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:07,916 Speaker 2: that a bombing crew would be able to focus on 479 00:30:07,956 --> 00:30:11,956 Speaker 2: any precise target if they couldn't see it. So just 480 00:30:12,076 --> 00:30:17,196 Speaker 2: like that, Curtis le May doesn't about face. The man 481 00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:19,396 Speaker 2: who came of age in the high church of precision 482 00:30:19,476 --> 00:30:23,956 Speaker 2: bombing decides, at the most crucial juncture of his career 483 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 2: to abandon his faith to bomb indiscriminately to become an 484 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:34,596 Speaker 2: area bomber and what weapon would he use for that task. 485 00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:37,516 Speaker 2: He knew as well as anyone the reports from the 486 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:41,756 Speaker 2: Army testing grounds back in America, where perfect replicas of 487 00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:46,876 Speaker 2: Japanese towns had been incinerated by Harvard's new wonder weapon. 488 00:30:49,636 --> 00:30:52,476 Speaker 2: The whole plan is so radical that when le May 489 00:30:52,596 --> 00:30:55,236 Speaker 2: sends a copy of it to Washington for the approval 490 00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:58,356 Speaker 2: of his boss, General hap Arnold, he makes sure it 491 00:30:58,476 --> 00:31:01,716 Speaker 2: arrives on a day when Arnold isn't in his office, so. 492 00:31:01,596 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: He can get that initial raid off before Arnold really 493 00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:06,396 Speaker 1: has a chance to look at it very much, because 494 00:31:06,396 --> 00:31:10,356 Speaker 1: he realizes he's taken a risky es are very valuable. 495 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:12,956 Speaker 1: It's very risky. You're talking about going in at night, 496 00:31:13,476 --> 00:31:17,876 Speaker 1: low altitude. He leaves most of the ammunition and gunners behind. 497 00:31:18,636 --> 00:31:22,156 Speaker 2: Crucial fact, the only thing LeMay lets his pilots have 498 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 2: to defend themselves is a tail gunner. All other guns 499 00:31:26,956 --> 00:31:30,316 Speaker 2: are removed. He wants to save as much weight as 500 00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:37,316 Speaker 2: possible for bombs. In the Air Force archives, it is 501 00:31:37,356 --> 00:31:40,676 Speaker 2: possible to find interviews from long ago with pilots who 502 00:31:40,796 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 2: remember the day when LeMay told them what was going 503 00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:44,156 Speaker 2: to happen that night. 504 00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:47,436 Speaker 10: And they were just a gasp in the audience because 505 00:31:47,916 --> 00:31:50,796 Speaker 10: you never thought about doing anything high altitude flying. 506 00:31:51,716 --> 00:31:55,116 Speaker 2: This is a B twenty nine navigator named David Braden. 507 00:31:55,436 --> 00:32:00,236 Speaker 10: And you went out and the bottom of your aircraft 508 00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:03,916 Speaker 10: have been painted black. So you do this is going 509 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:06,076 Speaker 10: to be a different thing. Most of the guys thought 510 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,516 Speaker 10: it was a susi admission. 511 00:32:08,716 --> 00:32:11,916 Speaker 2: And Braden's commander, Curtis le May, know this was going 512 00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:15,836 Speaker 2: to work. Of course he didn't, but remember his words, 513 00:32:16,236 --> 00:32:19,196 Speaker 2: the credo of the man who gets things done. I'd 514 00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:22,396 Speaker 2: rather have someone who was real stupid but did something 515 00:32:22,876 --> 00:32:27,316 Speaker 2: than have someone who'd vacillate and do nothing. Curtis le 516 00:32:27,436 --> 00:32:30,436 Speaker 2: May was going to do something. He was going to 517 00:32:30,476 --> 00:32:34,116 Speaker 2: aery A Bob Tokyo under cover of night with napalm. 518 00:32:35,676 --> 00:32:37,476 Speaker 3: I woke up one day and I'd been up there 519 00:32:37,516 --> 00:32:40,396 Speaker 3: for about two months. I hadn't done anything much, yet 520 00:32:41,516 --> 00:32:42,556 Speaker 3: I'd better do something. 521 00:32:45,316 --> 00:32:47,756 Speaker 2: I wonder if this is why le May fascinated so 522 00:32:47,796 --> 00:32:50,676 Speaker 2: many people in his day, because of his ability to 523 00:32:50,716 --> 00:32:53,956 Speaker 2: make that sudden turn, to turn his back on who 524 00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:58,396 Speaker 2: he was in the service of solving the problem. Curtis 525 00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:01,276 Speaker 2: le May was a member of the Bombing Mafia, a 526 00:33:01,316 --> 00:33:04,676 Speaker 2: graduate of the Air Corps Tactical School, a proponent of 527 00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:10,276 Speaker 2: precision bombing progress unhindered by custom. Later in his career 528 00:33:10,476 --> 00:33:13,636 Speaker 2: he would champion something called the B seventy bomber, an 529 00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:20,196 Speaker 2: airplane so absurdly complicated, so ridiculously advanced, so preposterously expensive, 530 00:33:20,476 --> 00:33:24,476 Speaker 2: and so deliciously and fantastically tricked out that the Air 531 00:33:24,516 --> 00:33:29,316 Speaker 2: Force only built two prototypes, one of which crashed. The 532 00:33:29,396 --> 00:33:33,796 Speaker 2: other has spent its entire life in the museum. Le 533 00:33:33,916 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 2: May was in his heart always the little boy who 534 00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:41,316 Speaker 2: ran after airplanes in the sky, and yet when he 535 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:45,276 Speaker 2: needed to, he could take all that, his entire identity, 536 00:33:45,356 --> 00:33:49,836 Speaker 2: the modern, progressive, skilled war maker, and throw it out 537 00:33:49,836 --> 00:33:50,276 Speaker 2: the window. 538 00:33:52,076 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 1: May. 539 00:33:52,276 --> 00:33:56,916 Speaker 10: Where did the idea for the low level fire attacks originate? 540 00:33:57,996 --> 00:33:58,396 Speaker 6: Oh? 541 00:33:59,356 --> 00:33:59,516 Speaker 4: Were? 542 00:33:59,556 --> 00:34:03,036 Speaker 3: You had ideas flying back and forth a lot. It 543 00:34:03,076 --> 00:34:07,396 Speaker 3: was my basic decision made it. Nobody said anything about 544 00:34:07,476 --> 00:34:10,596 Speaker 3: night saintury vomit where he had to have some results 545 00:34:10,676 --> 00:34:12,956 Speaker 3: and I had to produce him. If I didn't produce them, 546 00:34:13,036 --> 00:34:14,556 Speaker 3: or made the long guess, get another. 547 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:15,276 Speaker 1: Commander in there. 548 00:34:16,916 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 3: That's what happened to hansle You've got no results, I'd 549 00:34:21,316 --> 00:34:23,876 Speaker 3: have them. That's the reason for it. 550 00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:29,916 Speaker 2: On the night of March ninth, nineteen forty five, Curtis 551 00:34:29,996 --> 00:34:34,436 Speaker 2: le May launched Operation Meetinghouse. He sent three hundred and 552 00:34:34,636 --> 00:34:38,596 Speaker 2: thirty four B twenty nine's from the Marianas to Tokyo, 553 00:34:39,196 --> 00:34:42,716 Speaker 2: loaded with as much napalm as they could carry. The 554 00:34:42,836 --> 00:34:47,236 Speaker 2: target was not the Nakajima aircraft plant. That plan was over. 555 00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:51,676 Speaker 2: The new target was a densely populated region of Tokyo 556 00:34:52,156 --> 00:34:55,156 Speaker 2: straddling the Sumita River, a few miles east of the 557 00:34:55,236 --> 00:35:02,756 Speaker 2: Imperial Palace Zone one. The first few bombers dropped flares, 558 00:35:03,196 --> 00:35:06,756 Speaker 2: marking the target area for those that followed. Le Maay 559 00:35:06,876 --> 00:35:10,556 Speaker 2: was sending in his bombers at five thousand feet incredibly low. 560 00:35:11,596 --> 00:35:15,396 Speaker 2: That was so crazy that the Japanese were completely unprepared. 561 00:35:17,516 --> 00:35:20,236 Speaker 2: The bombs fell from the B twenty nine in clusters. 562 00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:24,876 Speaker 2: They were small steel pipes twenty inches long, weighing six pounds, 563 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:30,076 Speaker 2: packed with tnt in napalm, little baby bombs, each with 564 00:35:30,196 --> 00:35:32,836 Speaker 2: a long silver gauze streamer at one end, so that 565 00:35:33,036 --> 00:35:35,516 Speaker 2: if you looked in the sky that night in Tokyo, 566 00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:39,716 Speaker 2: there would have been a moment of extraordinary beauty, thousands 567 00:35:39,916 --> 00:35:43,836 Speaker 2: of these little silver daggers falling down to earth and 568 00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:53,076 Speaker 2: then boom on impact. Thousands of small explosions, burning gloves 569 00:35:53,116 --> 00:35:58,756 Speaker 2: of napalm thrown in every direction, All told by morning, 570 00:35:59,316 --> 00:36:02,556 Speaker 2: one thousand, six hundred and sixty five tons of napalm 571 00:36:03,076 --> 00:36:09,836 Speaker 2: dropped on Tokyo in one night. Circling high above Tokyo 572 00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:15,036 Speaker 2: is the master bomber, LeMay's deputy, Tommy Power, choreographing the attack. 573 00:36:16,156 --> 00:36:19,356 Speaker 2: Conrad Crane says that Power sat in his cockpit drawing 574 00:36:19,476 --> 00:36:20,756 Speaker 2: pictures of everything he saw. 575 00:36:22,196 --> 00:36:23,876 Speaker 1: He remarked, you know, the air was soul ful of 576 00:36:23,916 --> 00:36:26,116 Speaker 1: and sented areas you could not have walked through them. 577 00:36:26,716 --> 00:36:29,716 Speaker 1: By two thirty seven, the largest visual fire areas was 578 00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:33,676 Speaker 1: about forty blocks long and fifteen wide. The smoke was 579 00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:38,196 Speaker 1: up to twenty five thousand feet. When he draws his 580 00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:42,596 Speaker 1: last sketch, which is about an hour after initial his 581 00:36:42,756 --> 00:36:46,156 Speaker 1: first one, there's basically a score of separate areas from 582 00:36:46,196 --> 00:36:48,756 Speaker 1: fifty to one thousand city blocks burning at the same time, 583 00:36:49,476 --> 00:36:51,916 Speaker 1: and his last part last report says that the glow 584 00:36:51,996 --> 00:36:54,476 Speaker 1: from the fires was visible one hundred and fifty miles away. 585 00:36:57,956 --> 00:37:02,556 Speaker 2: The napom creates a firestorm, a conflagration hundreds of blocks long, 586 00:37:03,156 --> 00:37:06,356 Speaker 2: a fire of such intensity and duration that it creates 587 00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:12,316 Speaker 2: and sustains its own wind system. Everything burns sixteen square miles. 588 00:37:12,716 --> 00:37:16,116 Speaker 2: Buildings burst into flame before the fire even reaches them. 589 00:37:18,796 --> 00:37:22,996 Speaker 2: After the war, the US Strategic Bombing Survey concluded the following. 590 00:37:24,196 --> 00:37:27,796 Speaker 2: Probably more persons lost their lives by fire at Tokyo 591 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:31,436 Speaker 2: in a six hour period than any time in the 592 00:37:31,596 --> 00:37:38,316 Speaker 2: history of man. More than one hundred thousand people died 593 00:37:38,356 --> 00:37:38,716 Speaker 2: that night. 594 00:37:40,476 --> 00:37:43,156 Speaker 10: Frankly, when those cities were on fire, it looked like 595 00:37:43,276 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 10: you're looking into the mouth of hell. I mean, you 596 00:37:45,716 --> 00:37:47,516 Speaker 10: should not imagine a fire that big. 597 00:37:49,396 --> 00:37:51,356 Speaker 2: Over the course of the spring and summer of nineteen 598 00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:55,316 Speaker 2: forty five, LeMay went on to firebomb another sixty six 599 00:37:55,676 --> 00:38:00,316 Speaker 2: Japanese cities. In the chaos of war. The dead were 600 00:38:00,356 --> 00:38:03,356 Speaker 2: never counted. The final toll may be as high as 601 00:38:03,396 --> 00:38:04,036 Speaker 2: half a million. 602 00:38:04,956 --> 00:38:07,396 Speaker 1: They're about five thousand feet. They are pretty low. They 603 00:38:07,436 --> 00:38:12,396 Speaker 1: are low enough that the ah, the smell of burning 604 00:38:12,516 --> 00:38:15,316 Speaker 1: flesh permeates the aircraft. They actually have to fumigate the 605 00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:18,916 Speaker 1: aircraft when they land back in the Marianas because the 606 00:38:18,996 --> 00:38:21,356 Speaker 1: smell of burning flesh remains within the aircraft. 607 00:38:22,396 --> 00:38:27,636 Speaker 2: Two cities were spared, Nagasaki and Hiroshima. They were left 608 00:38:27,716 --> 00:38:31,156 Speaker 2: for another day and another Air Force command with a 609 00:38:31,236 --> 00:38:33,236 Speaker 2: different idea of how to win a war. 610 00:38:37,676 --> 00:38:38,156 Speaker 3: Thank you all. 611 00:38:41,876 --> 00:38:46,116 Speaker 2: On August fifteenth, nineteen forty five, at twelve noon, the 612 00:38:46,196 --> 00:38:52,716 Speaker 2: Emperor of Japan surrendered. The Air Force was asked to 613 00:38:52,756 --> 00:38:55,716 Speaker 2: bring Japan to its knees from the air so that 614 00:38:55,796 --> 00:39:03,196 Speaker 2: a ground invasion could be avoided. They succeeded. Next week 615 00:39:03,796 --> 00:39:07,476 Speaker 2: The reckoning When you burn alive hundreds of thousands of 616 00:39:07,556 --> 00:39:12,156 Speaker 2: civilians in the course of a military objective, What happens next? 617 00:39:19,676 --> 00:39:23,516 Speaker 2: Revisionist History is produced by Mee La Belle and Lee Mingestou, 618 00:39:23,916 --> 00:39:27,516 Speaker 2: with Jacob Smith, Eloise Linton and on An. I'm our 619 00:39:27,636 --> 00:39:32,076 Speaker 2: editor is Julia Barton. Original scoring by Luis Garra, mastering 620 00:39:32,156 --> 00:39:36,116 Speaker 2: by Flon Williams, fact checking by Beth Johnson. Special thanks 621 00:39:36,156 --> 00:39:41,316 Speaker 2: to the Pushkin Crew, Hetephane Carly Migliore, Maya Knigg, Maggie Taylor, 622 00:39:41,396 --> 00:39:45,756 Speaker 2: Jason Gambrel and of course Jacob Weisberg. I'm Malcolm Blackwell.