Speaker 1: So we've become a bit obsessed with China around here.
Speaker 1: And actually, if you're not a bit obsessed with China,
Speaker 1: I think you're missing out on the story of the century,
Speaker 1: as it is a country that actually has the ability
Speaker 1: to compete with the US economically and militarily, is hell
Speaker 1: bent on doing so, and is run by an evil dictatorship.
Speaker 1: If that doesn't get your attention, I don't know what would, well,
Speaker 1: what could lead us to anything but forceful rejection of
Speaker 1: of that country and that leadership. Well, trillions of dollars
Speaker 1: in trade tends to make you feel a little more
Speaker 1: ambivalent about evil, But to discuss that in many other topics.
Speaker 1: Ying Ma joins us ying Ma the author of Chinese
Speaker 1: Girl in the Ghetto, contributor to Fox News, Washington Examiner,
Speaker 1: NBC dot Com, former columnists for The Wall Street Journals,
Speaker 1: China Blog, among a number of other interesting positions. Welcome,
Speaker 1: How are you good? Good? Good morning? Do you both
Speaker 1: great to be back on with you. It's been too long.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, my gosh. I remember last time
Speaker 1: I was here, we were in the middle of the
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen campaign, and I was right in
Speaker 1: the middle of that working for the Ben Carson campaign
Speaker 1: in the pro Trump superpack and were now and we're
Speaker 1: now back in another election year. So I was reading
Speaker 1: a little of your bio stuff um yesterday and you
Speaker 1: grew up under Mao And there was a phrase in there,
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you wrote it or whoever
Speaker 1: was writing about you wrote it, but you know, on
Speaker 1: the during the burgeoning time of becoming a capitalist society?
Speaker 1: Is that? So what year did you leave China at
Speaker 1: that time? Did it seem like it was heading the
Speaker 1: way of capitalism? I left in the mid eighties, And
Speaker 1: so what was happening back then was the eighties was
Speaker 1: actually a great era because that was a time when
Speaker 1: a lot of garshoot pants Madonna, it was a great area.
Speaker 1: We had all that in China too, No I'm kidding,
Speaker 1: but the people of China aspired to have all that.
Speaker 1: And I think what was interesting about the eighties was that, um,
Speaker 1: it was when China actually be gave, really got um
Speaker 1: got going with its economic reforms. And so there were
Speaker 1: lots of first you know, the first time people got
Speaker 1: to choose where to work, where to live, um, you know,
Speaker 1: what to buy on the market, and and those were
Speaker 1: very um the very very first beginnings with baby steps,
Speaker 1: and so I certainly it was not full blown capitalism
Speaker 1: in in any way. But what was happening was that
Speaker 1: capitalism was introduced to a very repressive, um, very closed
Speaker 1: off society. And so you know, for instance, did you
Speaker 1: know that for the longest time farmers in China couldn't
Speaker 1: keep profits from you know, from their crops, and then
Speaker 1: so profit incentives were actually introduced in the eighties and
Speaker 1: and so from it was from that era that China
Speaker 1: um embarked on the road of what's called reform and
Speaker 1: opening and and you know, and it's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why China into the economic giant that it is today. Well,
Speaker 1: when they allowed incentives for production, production exploded, which is
Speaker 1: not surprised you would think that would keep a country
Speaker 1: from wanting to head back towards socialism when you got
Speaker 1: that perfectly good example of how capitalism works. But well,
Speaker 1: I think they are very well. I think one thing
Speaker 1: that they're very fond of is that nobody in China
Speaker 1: is opposed to making any opposed to making money. And
Speaker 1: that goes for the Chinese Communist Party. They've now come
Speaker 1: to realize how much money can buy, advise you, influence overseas. Um.
Speaker 1: It makes the party stronger. Um. And you know, the
Speaker 1: good thing about introducing capitalism in China is that a
Speaker 1: lot of the Chinese people who have this great entrepreneurial spirit,
Speaker 1: they got to know what it is like to run
Speaker 1: their own business, to actually, you know, to actually participate
Speaker 1: in the market. Okay, well then there's the question then
Speaker 1: right there. So the Stalin and In Lenin and his
Speaker 1: crew they in Russia, they were actually communists. It is
Speaker 1: now known from their own personal writings and and everything
Speaker 1: they actually believed in communism, and then they were trying
Speaker 1: to carry that out the Communist Party in China. Are
Speaker 1: they actually communist? Absolutely absolutely that they are a a
Speaker 1: new and improved version of communism. And I think, um,
Speaker 1: I think there is a lot of sophistication and a
Speaker 1: lot of complexity that's not often understood. And and you've
Speaker 1: got all kinds of idiots writing around saying China is
Speaker 1: no longer a communist country. That is absolutely not true,
Speaker 1: because I think at the core of it, communism is
Speaker 1: about control. It is about controlling the ideas of the
Speaker 1: people who live under it. It isn't about controlling their lives,
Speaker 1: and it is about all kinds of things. And the
Speaker 1: Communist Party has at no point decided that it wants
Speaker 1: to seed political power in any way, and so it
Speaker 1: is absolutely adamant about keeping that control. What it has
Speaker 1: done is that it has realized that if it kept
Speaker 1: on going the way that it did in the Cultural
Speaker 1: Revolution or the Great Leap Forward back in the fifties
Speaker 1: and sixties, all of its, but we're starving to death,
Speaker 1: and that that is no way to run a country.
Speaker 1: And so it has decided to over the past forty
Speaker 1: years to introduce elements of market reform. But it is
Speaker 1: not at all a free market society, because you know,
Speaker 1: in the middle of all those market reform elements, the
Speaker 1: state continues to maintain control of vast chunks of the economy.
Speaker 1: And so what the sophistication in all this is that
Speaker 1: the Chinese government has managed to find a way to
Speaker 1: make this sort of reforms work, to generate to generate profits,
Speaker 1: to generate wealth, to generate influence without having to face
Speaker 1: what the former Soviet Union faced, which is an overthrow
Speaker 1: of the regime well and as a regime to balance
Speaker 1: the openness to the free market in the global market.
Speaker 1: With the political control, there has to be an enormous sophistication.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, absolutely, the the you know, the control mechanisms
Speaker 1: and there, you know, it's almost like recognizing that UM.
Speaker 1: The Hitler's war machine sweeping across Europe was a stunning
Speaker 1: bit of military planning. I mean, as loathsome and horrific
Speaker 1: as it was, it's just undeniably impressive. The Chinese regime,
Speaker 1: You've got to admire them. That's almost impossible what they're
Speaker 1: doing right now. There is so much sophistication and and
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's important to recognize us. So
Speaker 1: even though there has been all these new UM forms
Speaker 1: of UM of liberation that didn't used to exist, right
Speaker 1: that people have more opportunities to live where they want
Speaker 1: to live, to buy what they want to buy, to
Speaker 1: say what they want to say in private. But what
Speaker 1: the regime has done is that it has continued to
Speaker 1: exert control in other ways. It's now, you know, it
Speaker 1: now censors the internet. The Internet did not exist when I,
Speaker 1: you know, was growing up in China. UM. It now
Speaker 1: has very sophisticated surveillance technology UM, supplied in part by
Speaker 1: Western companies that want to make a profit in China,
Speaker 1: and it uh it is able to figure out where
Speaker 1: its citizens go, what they're doing, you know, what trains
Speaker 1: they hop on and what trains there. So there is
Speaker 1: this social credit system in China that if you do
Speaker 1: things that the Chinese government does not like, they're all
Speaker 1: kinds of ways that it could, um, they could impede
Speaker 1: upon your ability to do basic things like by plane
Speaker 1: tickets for instance. So so it is a vastly sophisticated
Speaker 1: state in a way that I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't understand. Have you ever been to one of
Speaker 1: those wet bat markets? Think I've been to. I've been
Speaker 1: to all kinds of wet markets, and I've eaten all
Speaker 1: kinds of things that you probably don't want that they think.
Speaker 1: Is that the and that I have not that I can. However,
Speaker 1: you know, I tell you all kinds of ways that
Speaker 1: people kill animals in their own homes in order to
Speaker 1: eat them. And and you know, and so during the
Speaker 1: days when I used to grow up, people actually ate
Speaker 1: their pets in China, um, And you know, not when
Speaker 1: I was that was that was not not an eye
Speaker 1: opening experience at all, That was not at all, not
Speaker 1: at all and I had, you know, even though I
Speaker 1: was in the middle of the third largest city in China,
Speaker 1: I had chick in my kitchen that we would grab
Speaker 1: and kill if we wanted a meal from time to time.
Speaker 1: That's pretty common as well. Um, I mean it's no
Speaker 1: longer the case now, but what markets are quite common.
Speaker 1: They're still enjoyed by the Chinese people. And then it's
Speaker 1: you know, but I hear that you know, the government
Speaker 1: wants to get rid of them because they are now
Speaker 1: just a hotbed for diseases. Um. So you were, we
Speaker 1: were emailing yesterday and you told me the story about
Speaker 1: this uh m m a fighter, yes, journalist and the coronavirus.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a little break, but we got we
Speaker 1: got to hear this story. This is what the Chinese
Speaker 1: Communist Party is capable of doing. It features at bat
Speaker 1: market and fighting market. That's kind of all the elements
Speaker 1: of the story that you need to keep you to
Speaker 1: stay tuned to the Armstrong, The Armstrong and Getty Show.
Speaker 1: If you get a chance to pick up a copy
Speaker 1: of Chinese Girl in the Ghetto by Yingma, you should
Speaker 1: absolutely read it for a number for reasons. It's so
Speaker 1: for interesting about China's super interesting about uh, the United
Speaker 1: States is seen through the eyes of an immigrant, and
Speaker 1: race relations and all sorts of great stuff. But ying
Speaker 1: mon joins us talk about China and all sorts of
Speaker 1: good stuff. Yeah, this story because we're emailing yesterday, this
Speaker 1: kind of encompasses a couple of things that are in
Speaker 1: the news. Coronavirus, the guy I mean is government, whats
Speaker 1: government is willing to do? Tell the story well, so um,
Speaker 1: and it encompasses m M A, which I know is
Speaker 1: a big deal for for lots of people across this country.
Speaker 1: So let me start with the coronavirus. I mean, as
Speaker 1: we all know, it's it's really become such a big problem.
Speaker 1: There are seventy five thousand cases in China that we
Speaker 1: know of, and the numbers coming out of China at
Speaker 1: all reliable, you know. Um, the answer is we can't
Speaker 1: possibly just believe what they tell us. But even if
Speaker 1: even if we don't, seventy a lot I mean already
Speaker 1: that's what they're admitting to. And then they're the death
Speaker 1: toll is over two hundred, right, and and so look
Speaker 1: and and so um what there are couple of citizen
Speaker 1: journalists that have gone to the epicenter of the virus
Speaker 1: and have tried to done sort of video video youtubeing,
Speaker 1: YouTube videos and others to try to get get the
Speaker 1: word out, figure out what's going on. And and they've
Speaker 1: been disappeared by the authorities. Yes, that's the word that
Speaker 1: And and speaking of China being a communist country, this
Speaker 1: is a word that's commonly used in you know, in
Speaker 1: in the former Soviet Union as well as other countries
Speaker 1: behind the Iron Curtain in the old days. That still
Speaker 1: happens in China. So don't anybody sort of get into
Speaker 1: the temptation of thinking that communism doesn't continue to exist
Speaker 1: in China. And a camp or you don't know, because
Speaker 1: when people were disappeared, we have no idea where they
Speaker 1: are and what and what was their offense they went to.
Speaker 1: They actually risk their lives to go to these hospitals
Speaker 1: where all these people are dying with this coronavirus that
Speaker 1: we don't know very much about. And they reported all
Speaker 1: kinds of things that we other people, including journalists from
Speaker 1: the New Times, had no idea of which is one
Speaker 1: that there is a shortage of hospital beds, two, there
Speaker 1: is a shortage of test kits, and so it's at
Speaker 1: the epicenter of the city where this virus started. You know,
Speaker 1: it becomes a problem right when you see corpses lying
Speaker 1: around in hospitals and they're not being cleared me enough
Speaker 1: or that or that. Within a day, you know, from
Speaker 1: at a major hospital, you see the number of corpses
Speaker 1: go from two to eight in a short amount of time.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of reporting that some of these journalists
Speaker 1: have done. And what did the authorities do? Well, they
Speaker 1: rounded them up And now here's where the m M
Speaker 1: A guy got gets involved. Um. You know, this is
Speaker 1: actually a fascinating story with all these different angles there.
Speaker 1: And for those of you who do any kind of
Speaker 1: martial arts, um, m M A is different, I think,
Speaker 1: And let me make a side tangent here. Um. A
Speaker 1: lot of people have have complained that even though Chinese
Speaker 1: martial arts has this distinguished history, you know, you've got
Speaker 1: all these people there you go, right, but one of
Speaker 1: the one of one of the biggest critiques of traditional
Speaker 1: Chinese martial arts is that is it practical? Can you fight?
Speaker 1: If if a Chinese martial artist, all these people with
Speaker 1: their fancy moves get into the octagon, can you actually
Speaker 1: fight and So there is this Chinese um M M
Speaker 1: A fighter in China who have taken it upon himself
Speaker 1: to expose the fraud, the frauds of of Chinese martial
Speaker 1: arts to say that you find you know, and so
Speaker 1: do you think it's his words? His word? He feels
Speaker 1: that many of these esteem masters in China can't fight,
Speaker 1: and he's challenged and he's challenged them to real fights.
Speaker 1: He's challenged them to real fights. And this is a guy,
Speaker 1: his name Isan. This is a guy who became famous
Speaker 1: because a couple of years ago he knocked out a
Speaker 1: Tai Tea master in twenty seconds, and since then he's
Speaker 1: gone on to challenge other masters. And and so he's cocky,
Speaker 1: he's arrogant, he's obnoxious and outright disrespectful. But he happens
Speaker 1: to be friends with one of the citizen journalists who
Speaker 1: was disappeared. And this m M. A fighter actually is
Speaker 1: one of the few people who had who who actually
Speaker 1: has put his face on a video to say to
Speaker 1: the world that this person, you know, this friend of
Speaker 1: mine is doing this. He was trying to tell the
Speaker 1: truth about the coronavirus and the government rounded him up
Speaker 1: and the government, you know, used the excuse that this
Speaker 1: man was infected with the virus and hence he was quarantined.
Speaker 1: And the m M A fighter says that's complete bs
Speaker 1: and so um and so he might be famous enough
Speaker 1: that they can't disappear him. That's what he was going for. Well,
Speaker 1: he his whole point was, I'm going to put this
Speaker 1: all out there and they're gonna come after me, but
Speaker 1: this is my insurance policy. I don't know how well
Speaker 1: that's see you with just I think she has enough
Speaker 1: people with guns and other and listen, as long as
Speaker 1: we're kind of on the topic, I've heard it said
Speaker 1: that this is fomenting serious, possibly dangerous to the regime
Speaker 1: levels of unrest. Will the steam be let off and
Speaker 1: things you go back to normal or do you think
Speaker 1: this has the potential to drive real change. I would
Speaker 1: say it's fomenting serious discontent unrest. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: gotten to the level of unrest yet. When you're talking
Speaker 1: about unrest, I you know, I'm thinking about mass protests, rallies.
Speaker 1: That's what we saw in Hong Kong, right right, And
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you brought up Hong Kong because I
Speaker 1: think um oh, and this MM a fighter. When the
Speaker 1: Hong Kong protests were at the their high he actually
Speaker 1: went out there and publicly supported the protesters in Hong Kong,
Speaker 1: which is a very rare feat as well. You don't
Speaker 1: see Jackie Chan doing that. Jackie Chan is running around
Speaker 1: condemning the protesters. And so I think one I think
Speaker 1: it sometimes takes people who are a little bit crazy
Speaker 1: and perhaps kind of obnoxious in order to challenge the
Speaker 1: status quo to have the courage to actually say to
Speaker 1: this powerful government, you know, to give the give the
Speaker 1: government the middle finger. Now it comes to unrest and
Speaker 1: discontent in China, you are absolutely right that this um
Speaker 1: epidemic has stirred up all kinds of unrest. People have
Speaker 1: been calling for freedom of speech because if they don't
Speaker 1: have freedom of speech, people die. You know. The government
Speaker 1: has been has been covering up the extent of the illness,
Speaker 1: and and so there's a lot of that. But I
Speaker 1: think what it reminds us of is that what that
Speaker 1: you have to that people who foment unrest or who
Speaker 1: challenge the government, they don't just do it as sort
Speaker 1: of a a a concept. It helps a lot more
Speaker 1: when their lives are at stake. And and so, um
Speaker 1: and so I think for a lot of people in China,
Speaker 1: I don't think they Actually many people in China were
Speaker 1: not firmly behind the protesters in Hong Kong for a
Speaker 1: number of reasons. But I think with something like this,
Speaker 1: where their lives are at stake, it's stirred up all
Speaker 1: kinds of hostility towards the regime and all kinds of
Speaker 1: people asking the regime to actually, you know, make reforms.
Speaker 1: We are just about out of time with Yeng Ma,
Speaker 1: author a Chinese Girl and the Ghetto, contributor to Fox
Speaker 1: News dot com, Washington Examiner, NBC News. Where do you
Speaker 1: want people to to find you, your website, your Twitter
Speaker 1: or whatever? Um so on Twitter, I am um at
Speaker 1: ge z t o ghetto gez to ghetto um and
Speaker 1: my website is Yingma dot org. That is why I
Speaker 1: m g m a dot org. We'll have the links
Speaker 1: that arm Strong and Ghetti dot com so people can
Speaker 1: find them. Really, question about a story in the news
Speaker 1: about China or a book or whatever. She's the one
Speaker 1: that I always email or text or whatever and say,
Speaker 1: what do you think about this? You realize he only
Speaker 1: orders sweet and sour park But I thought I thought
Speaker 1: when I was on with you guys when my book
Speaker 1: first came out. We agree that I would take Jack
Speaker 1: to a Chinese restaurant, an authentic Chinese. Oh boy, alright
Speaker 1: now that's ridiculous, But this is the ugly American right here.
Speaker 1: Try the real authentic, or take me to a wet
Speaker 1: bat market. I'll check and even the coronavirus is over. Fantastic.
Speaker 1: Thanks for going on so much, are strong and Getty