1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: global economy to you. Now. I should start with a 3 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: warning for anyone listening with a fragile disposition who has 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: more than thirty million dollars in the bank. You might 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: find some of the content of this episode of upsetting, 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 1: because we're talking about taking some of your money away. 7 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: Three men in America now own as much as the 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: lower fifty percent of the population and the richest one percent. 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: That's you, with your thirty million odd own around forty 10 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: of the nation's wealth. At least two prominent contenders for 11 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the U S presidency, and quite a lot of economists 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: think that needs to change. I'm going to talk later 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: to two of our europe based economists about the experience 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: of wealth taxes here, and I'll also be talking to 15 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Bloombergs Jiano Randall in Frankfort about the thirtieth anniversary of 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: the fall of the Berlin War. But first his o 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: U S economy reporter Cat Dmitrieva with the low down 18 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: on wealth taxes and the US presidential race. Today, we 19 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: say to Wall Street and the billionaire class, you ain't 20 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: gonna get it all anymore. That's Bernie Sanders. Yes, that 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: is a two cent tax on fortune's over fifty million dollars. 22 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Your first fifty million, don't worry, you're in the clear. 23 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: But for your fifty million and first dollar, you gotta 24 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: pitch in two cents and two cents for every dollar 25 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: after that. Just and that's Elizabeth Warren. Their voices are 26 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: becoming more and more familiar as campaigns heat up for 27 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: presidential election. Both have big plans to reshape US tax policy. 28 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: Their goal narrow the gap between the haves and have nots. 29 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: America is now the least equal developed nation, largely because 30 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: of outsize gains among the rich. For the majority of Americans, 31 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: their wealth has actually declined in the past decade. That's 32 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: despite a record stock market, the longest economic expansion in history, 33 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: and the lowest unemployment in fifty years. Inequality also played 34 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: a role in the election. Donald Trump won in part 35 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: by promising jobs and an improved life for those left behind. 36 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: Where you're born, where you went to school, if you 37 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 1: went to school, how rich your parents are. These all 38 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: dictate where you'll end up in America. So how do 39 00:02:59,919 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: you solve an issue that's so complicated and runs so 40 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 1: deep Sanders and Warren think they have the answer. Make 41 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: the rich pay more. For Warren and Sanders, a wealth 42 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: tax is a way to even things out, to redistribute 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: economic gains. More broadly, we have something that's just fundamentally 44 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: wrong with an economy that isn't performing well for broad 45 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: majorities of the population. Stephanie Kelton is an economics professor 46 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: at Stony Brook University and she advises the Sanders campaign. 47 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: You know, this is an economy that on the surface 48 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: might look pretty healthy in terms of the headline unemployment 49 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: numbers or GDP growth, but underneath the surface there is 50 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: a lot that isn't working, which growth has stagnated this 51 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: year despite a tight labor market. Those without a college 52 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: degree make less than half with someone with a master's 53 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: degree makes. If they go to school, they're likely to 54 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: get saddled with huge amounts of debt. Meanwhile, health care 55 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: is becoming more and more expensive. For people making the 56 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: media income and working multiple jobs, life can feel impossible. 57 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: The outcome can be tragic. More people, especially white, middle 58 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: aged men, are committing suicide or dying of drug overdoses. 59 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: So why is taxing the solution? Gabrielle Zokman, the economists 60 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: who advise Standers and Warren, explains, you know, look, taxation 61 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: is one of the key determinant of the long run 62 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: concentration of wealth. That's one of the big lessons from history. 63 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: You know when when when the tax system was much 64 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: more progressive, that also when inequally was lower. And uh, 65 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: if you care about reducing the concentration of wealth, then 66 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: the most direct and powerful tool would be a progressive 67 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: wealth dext Zuckman says wealth translates into political power and 68 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: an erosion of democracy. He is one of several economists, 69 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: including Thomas Peaked and Emmanuel Says, who have elevated the 70 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: issue in their field. Kelton, who thinks that generally a 71 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: government doesn't need to raise taxes to spend acknowledges the 72 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: reality on Capitol Hill and the question how are you 73 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: going to pay for it? I mean, this is the 74 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: sort of way it works in Washington, d C. Right, 75 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 1: You're you're a candidate or you're a lawmaker, and you 76 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: want to do some big, ambitious stuff and you've got 77 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: an agenda, and it's going to cost a lot of money, 78 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: and well, if you have to go where the money is, okay, 79 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 1: where's the money. Well, I guess the rich people have 80 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: all the money. You know, everybody knows that there are 81 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: these concentrations of income and wealth in the hands of 82 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: a small number of very, very well off people. Here's 83 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: a breakdown of the plants. Sands is more ambitious, with 84 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: his plan, cutting the average billionaire's well than half in 85 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: the next fifteen years. The annual tax would apply to 86 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: about one hundred and eighty thousand households. Warren's would apply 87 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: to seventy thousand because her wealth threshold is higher. In 88 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: a nutshell, both candidates would raise several trillion dollars from 89 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: multimillionaires to be spent on social programs. But some research 90 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: has shown that redistributing income may not be all that effective. 91 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: William Gale is co director at the Tax Policy Center 92 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: in Washington. His research shows that a small boost in 93 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: taxes for the rich has a pretty negligible effect on 94 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: overall inequality. After all, even if a billionaire hands over 95 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars, there's still a huge gap 96 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: between them and someone working several part time gigs at 97 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: a minimum wage. One question, of course, is how much 98 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: should you is taxes? A second question is is that 99 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: really the best or only way to narrow the inequality gap. 100 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: We need to consider both government spending uh and tax policy. 101 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: There's no guarantee of success. In fact, fifteen countries in 102 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: Europe have tried to implement some kind of wealth tax 103 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: in recent years, but only four still have one. Why 104 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: the levies didn't raise a lot of money and they 105 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: were pretty tough to collect. More on that in the 106 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: next segment, what's the ideal solution? Then, Gail suggests closing 107 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: income tax loopholes, improving education, and bolstering the social safety net. 108 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: It's also messaging. It's not about punishing the rich. In fact, 109 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: some rich people are actively supporting higher taxes. I'm more 110 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: s Pearl. I'm the chairman of a group called the 111 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 1: Patriotic Millionaires. We have a group of hundreds of wealthy 112 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: business people and investors who are very concerned that the 113 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: growing inequality is going to destabilize our country. We're at 114 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: a turning point and we might end up with, you know, 115 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: pitchforks or taxes, and I'll choose taxes. Pearl was formerly 116 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,679 Speaker 1: an executive at black Rock, one of the world's largest 117 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: fund managers. There's a growing understanding that inequality isn't just 118 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: an issue of morality but also basic economics. If the 119 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: majority of people aren't increasing their wealth, they're spending is restrained, 120 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: business formation is lower, and the economy that relies so 121 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,839 Speaker 1: much on consumption won't grow as fast. I made a 122 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of money because people pay their mortgage bills on time, 123 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 1: and their cell phone bills and their iTunes bills, and 124 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: money's trickled up from all of these people paying these 125 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: little bills every month to those of us who have 126 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: invested in the companies like Amazon and Google and Verizon, 127 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: and the banks who make money from those monthly bills 128 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: coming in. And without people who can make their payments 129 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: every month, investors can't make money either. Wall Streets flagged 130 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: some concern about a war in presidency as she rises 131 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: in the polls. Others like billionaire investor Ray Dalio, and 132 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: even ratings agency S and P have said inequality is 133 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 1: one of the biggest issues putting the economy and political 134 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: stability at risk. There's been some movement. A handful of 135 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: places in the US have started rolling out taxes that 136 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 1: hit companies, worsening the income divide. Portland, Oregon added a 137 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: surcharge to companies where the top executive earns one hundred 138 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: times more than the typical employee. Still, there's a long 139 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: way to go for national policies to come and force, 140 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: and the election is a full year away. The good news, 141 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: politicians and voters have a lot of options, and look, 142 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: the wealth taxes one policy that can help address the 143 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: rights of inequality. But the other policies that are equally 144 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: are almost as equally important. You know, fixing the income tax, 145 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: corporate taxation, but also you know, anti trust, regulation of 146 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: intellectual property, UH, access to education, reforming the healthcare system, 147 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: and all of these matters. And UH, countries choose the 148 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 1: level of inequality that they have through government polysis, and 149 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: the choices really ours to make. For Bloomberg News in Washington, 150 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: d C. I'm Catty Dmitrieva. So in the debate about 151 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: wealth taxes, one claim you hear a lot in the 152 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: US is that wealth taxes would make America or European. 153 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: Howether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I 154 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: guess it depends on your point of view, but wealth 155 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 1: taxes certainly sound like something Europe would have a lot 156 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: off with all of its emphasis on social solidarity and redistribution. 157 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: So you might be surprised to hear that Switzerland's currently 158 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: the only European country that raises a significant amount of 159 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: money from wealth taxes. It's true that more than a 160 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: dozen European countries have had wealth taxes at some point 161 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: in the last few years, but nearly all of them 162 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: have abolished them, and two countries that have largely junk 163 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: their wealth taxes are Sweden and France. We have a 164 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: Swedish economist in residents now at Bloomberg Economics, Johannah Jansen, 165 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: based in Stockholm, and a French economist, Maiva Kuza, who 166 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: is currently in Switzerland. So I thought it might be 167 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: useful to talk to them about the experience there of 168 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: wealth taxes. Yohannah, let me start with you tell me 169 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: what happened to wealth taxes in Sweden. Well, you're right, 170 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: we have abolished them. We abolished them in two thousand 171 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: and seven after sixty years. Actually, and you're right, it 172 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: was not because Swedes have a problem with taxing the rich. 173 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: Actually it was that the tax after several years, included 174 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: so many tweaks and exceptions that it was deemed to 175 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: be unfair. In the end, and that is something that 176 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: you hear a lot that it's not so much the 177 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: principle of wealth taxes, it's the fact that you're then 178 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: you and people try so hard to avoid them that 179 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: they end up a very very extorting and messy exactly, 180 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: that's it. And we had a number of well known 181 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: corporate leaders that threatened to move abroad, and some did. 182 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: Henderson Marrit's h and MS founder Arlen Passion did move also, 183 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: i ke as in Rakampra did so too. Uh And 184 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: in a bid to keep nohow in capital in the country, 185 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: certain shares in publicly owned companies were actually made exempt 186 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: and that, in combination with a fairly low threshold for 187 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: this wealth tax, that meant that the tax was paid 188 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: not by the wealthiest but by many middle and above 189 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: average in com earners. But it does it does seem 190 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 1: odd though, when you have a country that you know 191 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: where high income folks are paying very high marginal tax rates. 192 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: Do you think there was something just more visceral about 193 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: people feeling that wealth should be shouldn't be taxed in 194 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: the same way as income. Well, perhaps I think it's 195 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: also that what we're seeing in Sweden now is that 196 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: and It's like that with tax policy. If if it's 197 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: like pruning a garden, if you tax something heavily, it 198 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: will wither. If you reduce taxation, it will likely grow. 199 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: And what we're seeing in Sweden now is that because 200 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: capital taxes have been lowered while labor income taxes are 201 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: still high, people tend to start their own companies. Even 202 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: consultants start their own companies and instead of having a 203 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: labor income, they make it a capital income. May even 204 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about the French experience. I mean, 205 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: I don't quite remember it, but I know when I 206 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: was first studying economics, President metals introduction of the wealth 207 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 1: tax when he came in one was talked about as 208 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: being the great kind of move against the tide of 209 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 1: global opinion. Remember an eighty one. It was a period 210 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,080 Speaker 1: where market reforms were coming into the fourth Ronald Reagan 211 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: and Margaret Thatcher, and his wealth tax was kind of 212 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 1: symbolic of the fact that France was taking a different direction. 213 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: But we have now Prepresident Macro has basically got rid 214 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: of it in the last couple of years. Is that right, Yes, 215 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: that's correct. So it was introduced your right by in 216 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: one and it was partly abolished by Macro follow in 217 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: the twenty seventeen addiction. So out of the wealth tax, 218 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: they have kept the tax on housing wealth, which is 219 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: about it the fourth of the total tax base that 220 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: was in place before, and they have abolished the tax 221 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: on financial wealth more generally. And the stated objective was 222 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: actually to um increase productive investment into the French economy 223 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: by avoiding that. Actually some capital moves apart or in 224 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: UM look tax loopholes to avoid to avoid the wealth tax. 225 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: Do you think it's going to have any of those effects? 226 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think it was ever a sort 227 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: of negative in its effects as people said, and is 228 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: now going to cause this great rebirth of growth or 229 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: has it become more symbolic. So clearly there was a 230 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: symbolic effect, and I think the signaling that President Macron 231 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: was really poor business was quite strong from abolishing this tax. 232 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: We're quite lucky that there has been a committee set 233 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: up to assess the impact of the change to the 234 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: wealth tax and the change to the taxation of capital 235 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: um and they have given their first reports earlier this month, 236 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: in October to last month, and so far it's realy 237 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: to tell how much impact that will have It's quite 238 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: difficult to know actually how much tax exile had happened 239 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: before the tax was partly abolished, so it's difficult. But 240 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: the French treas or the French Minister of Finance is 241 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: starting to publish a lot of data and an animalized 242 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: data and back season wealth taxes and wealth in general, 243 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: so pretty that will be a good laboratory to understand. 244 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: How so as well if taxes can affect behaviors and inequalities, well, 245 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: I guess there is a bit ironic that you've got 246 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: Macron kind of getting rid of largely getting rid of 247 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: the wealth tax, just as American politicians and it seems 248 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: like an awful lot of economists are all saying that 249 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: maybe these kind of taxes are a good idea. And 250 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: it is partly actually because of the data that that 251 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: the French economist Thomas Piquity has been putting out there. 252 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: So is this do you think that we will be 253 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: sort of internationally moving more in favor of taxing wealth 254 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: in one way or another, even if maybe the French 255 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: way of doing it was not the right way of 256 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: doing it. So generally wealth taxation is progressive because there 257 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: is accomredation between with an income. So that means that 258 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: if you start taxing higher were for the weddest households, 259 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: so it's equivalent to increasing the effective tax rate and 260 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: but with higher income. So I think that's the first 261 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: that's a fast fashional way we might see more well spectation, 262 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: especially if you feel that income including capital income is 263 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: actually more difficult to tax. Because we're within equality has 264 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: taken such a prominent focus in the debate, it's probably 265 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: something we will see debated more in the next and 266 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: we are seeing our heady debate in more in the 267 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: economics and of physical or government policy debate. We're going 268 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: to have a lot more debate around asset taxation, I 269 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: think everywhere, but certainly as economists we probably is. It's 270 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: annoying for people to hear, but economists tend to focus 271 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: on the details of these things and it's going to 272 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: matter quite a lot. I think about the details of 273 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: those proposals on the US presidential campaign, and maybe we'll 274 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: come back to it in a few months time, but 275 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: in the meantime, Johanna Jeanson and Stockholm and may have 276 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: a kuza in Zurich. Thank you very much. Thank you 277 00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: for having me. Thank you. Before we go this week, 278 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 1: we thought we should go to Germany to reflect on 279 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: one anniversary and one new beginning. The anniversary, of course, 280 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: is the thirtieth anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, 281 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: and the new beginning is the arrival of Christine Lagarde 282 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: on Monday this week for her first day in the 283 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: office as President of the European Central Bank. Well Yana 284 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: Randall is an economy and central bank editor of Bloomberg 285 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: based in Frankfurt. Yanna, let's talk about the ECB first. 286 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: That's your your bread and butter day to day. What 287 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: have we seen of Christine Lagarde since her arrival at 288 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: the u c B on Monday. We saw her walking 289 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: into the c B, which which was actually quite nice. 290 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: He took a few minutes to chat to reporters on 291 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 1: on her first working day, and then she disappeared very 292 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: quickly saying, um, she has a lot of catching up, 293 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people to get to know, to do. 294 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: And the first speech she gave actually that very same day, 295 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: Monday evening in Berlin to uh to applaud the efforts 296 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: and and Lord wolf and Schoy Blue, former Finance Minister 297 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: of Germany, She hasn't spoken about monetary policy yet, so 298 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 1: that is something that we're very much looking forward to. 299 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 1: But she has paid tribute in that sense to to 300 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: a great leader that she knows very well from her 301 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: time as French finance minister and um as head of 302 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: the IMATH. Yeah, and wolf Going was a pretty towering 303 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: figure during the whole of the Eurozone crisis. But you 304 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: you literally wrote the book on Mario Drug with your 305 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: Bloomberg colleague Alessandro Spetziel, behind the scenes look on how 306 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: he saved the euro I think it's available in Italian now, 307 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: but I think hopefully in English suit in all good bookstores. 308 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: What do you expect to be the big contrast between 309 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: the two, Christine Lagarde and Mario Drug. I think we 310 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: will see a lot more from Christine Lagarde in the 311 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: in the public eye. UM. I expect her to be 312 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: much more outgoing, much more engaging with the public. To 313 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: see her show up at events, give interviews, give speeches. 314 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,119 Speaker 1: That's something that Mario Druggi hasn't really done over the 315 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: past couple of years. UM. He has basically only communicated 316 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: during press conferences, the ones following the ECB decisions. Testimony 317 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: in Parliament that sort of thing, but he hasn't really 318 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: been out there explaining ECB policy to the public. And 319 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: I think, um, look, guard, that's one of her pot 320 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: forte's um to engage with the people. She's a very 321 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: charming person. She likes to be with people, talk to people. 322 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: So I think that'll that will do the institution very well, 323 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: especially in the light um of criticism lately, especially in 324 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: Germany where the CP isn't particularly well regarded or its 325 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: monetary policy. You should say you're right about the charm. 326 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I think Mary Drug is quite charming. But 327 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: I've interviewed Christine Laguard many times over the years, and 328 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,959 Speaker 1: she as a way she she can be quite kind 329 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: of conspiratorial. You know, before the cameras are running, she 330 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: compliments you have a little conversation around your boots that 331 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: you're wearing or whatever it is. You know, She's just 332 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: she's very good at putting people at ease and then 333 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: communicating well, you're right. And it's the risk that she 334 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: actually knows some of these people too well, particularly politicians. 335 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: You know, if the ECB needs to stand as a 336 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,439 Speaker 1: bulwark against political pressures in Europe, just as any Central 337 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: Bank hast too. Do you think that might be an 338 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: issue that she has such strong relationships already with the politicians. 339 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: I think actually quite to the contrary. She is somebody 340 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: who really grows attached to the institution she leads. You 341 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: saw that at the IMAF she adapted very quickly to 342 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 1: the to the spirit of the institution and became a 343 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: very outspoken defender of the institution, and I think we'll 344 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,719 Speaker 1: see something similar. And if anything, the close relations to governments, 345 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: to finance ministers, to heads of states well help her 346 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: do her job, because if you look at it, um, 347 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: the e c B is really coming to an end 348 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: of the line. They are running out of tools. It's 349 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 1: of course something that a policymaker would never admit, but 350 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: interest rates are already at a record low. Quee has 351 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: limits and um, although they say, you know, they have 352 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: some way to go. Ultimately she needs governments to to 353 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: step up their game. They have been calling on governments 354 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: to step up fiscal stimulus, UM, structural reforms, that sort 355 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: of thing, and I think her relationships with the political 356 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: elite in that sense can only help. Well, we shall see, 357 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: you will see how things go, and we'll be back 358 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: to talk to you, I'm sure in the in the 359 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: next few months. But a last word on the big 360 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: historic anniversary that Germany has been commemorating the thirty years 361 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: since the fall of the Berlin Wall. It's hard to 362 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: imagine a euro without a unified Germany. Thirty years ago 363 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: we didn't have the Eurozone. Um. If you go to 364 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: Berlin now, the on the surface, the unification process seems complete. 365 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,479 Speaker 1: You know, you wouldn't. You can't identify East and West 366 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: just standing on that border in in in Berlin. But 367 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: I know underneath, if you look at the economic data, 368 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: and certainly if you look at the political polling for 369 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: far right parties, it's still quite a divided nation. Is 370 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: that what you find, Yana? Yeah, I would agree with that, 371 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of it has to do 372 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 1: with how that unification or reunification came into being. A 373 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: lot as rooted in the in the political decision, the 374 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: economic decisions that were taken right in the nine nineties, 375 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen nineties. Um, And what you can 376 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: what you can still feel today is that many Eastern 377 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 1: German people are still scarred from from the process. About 378 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: three million people lost their jobs in the early nineteen nineties. 379 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: Now the labor force was only nine million people big, 380 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: so that's a third of the labor force right there. 381 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: And unemployment was was a total foreign concept for for 382 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: somebody from from a communist country, so so that hit deeply. 383 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 1: And um, things have obviously recovered since then, but unemployment 384 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: is still higher in the East than it is in 385 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: the West. People are actually working longer hours, they're making 386 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: less money, they're less likely to get into leadership positions. 387 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: So there is a sense of feeling left behind still 388 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: among a lot of people in East Germany. And that 389 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: is also one explanation why you see people voting for 390 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: populist parties, populist on the right and on the left. 391 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, if anyone listening to this 392 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: wonders where the economics really matters, that was the time 393 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: when economics really mattered, because there was that the decision 394 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: I think you were you're talking about it yet, the 395 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: decision to have the conversion rate between the old the 396 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: most mark and the mark deutschebak be one for one, 397 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: that was the politically important thing, and all the economists 398 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: at the time said, if you do that, you've got 399 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: very unproductive Europe. East German workers who will overnight be 400 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: put out of work, and that's exactly exactly what happened. 401 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: Taken a long time to come back from. That shows 402 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: that economic decisions really can make a difference. Yeah, very 403 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,920 Speaker 1: much so. I spoke actually many years back to the 404 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,719 Speaker 1: vice president of the East German Central Bank about exactly this. 405 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: He said, Yeah, we knew that this was wrong from 406 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: an economic point of view, but really politically there was 407 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: no other way around, because how do you explain to 408 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 1: people who have saved, who have worked, who have done 409 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: nothing wrong, that their savings are basically worth only half 410 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: of what they thought they were. Um. So that was 411 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 1: one very very big decision that was taken as a 412 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: matter of fact, you know, when when you looked at 413 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: which companies were actually um productive or competitive in that sense, 414 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: after after that whole transition, there was one company in 415 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: all of East Germany which was and um it's the 416 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: one that makes fancy China fancy porcelains. I should ask 417 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: you personally, you were born in the East of Germany. 418 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: What what's your memory I know you're terribly young, but 419 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: what's your memory of the of the fall of the 420 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: Berlin Wall? I have I have quite vivid memories of that. 421 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: I grew up in Leipzish, which was one of the 422 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: places where the Monday demonstrations were probably strongest leading up 423 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: to the fall of the Berlin Wall. Um, so they 424 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: led right by our house where we lived each Monday, 425 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: and and it was a mixture of terrifying views and 426 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: also very um hopeful views. The day it finally happened, Um, 427 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: it was a very strange atmosphere, a strange atmosphere throughout 428 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: the city. I remember going to West Berlin with my family, 429 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: taking the train up there the Sunday, after walking across 430 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: that border and and being greeted by presumings of other people. 431 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: There were so many people and and and so many 432 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: people from the east, so many people from the West 433 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,919 Speaker 1: just coming out to see to to give the kids 434 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: chocolate and the parents coffee and and um, strange things 435 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: that that you wouldn't necessarily give us gifts, but that 436 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: were usually part of the packages that traveled from east 437 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: to west. One of my most vivid memories is actually 438 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: going into um a fruit and vegetable store, on on 439 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: Sunday in West Berlin, you know, on the weekend after 440 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,160 Speaker 1: the wall broke, and just seeing what was on display there. 441 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 1: I think we must have stood there for minutes, just 442 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: John's dropping. I'd never seen a pineapple in my life. 443 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know, you know, half the fruits that were 444 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: on display. That's kind of the luxury that that you 445 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: as a kid did not remember, or walking by a 446 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: toy store. It just, you know, it felt like heaven. Um, 447 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: it felt like coming to a foreign place. Essentially, well 448 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: we should. It is good to remember. Amazing things can happen. 449 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: Yan at round Out. Thank you very much, pleasure, Thanks 450 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: for listening to Stephanomics. We'll be back next week with 451 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: more on the ground insights from around the global economy. 452 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can find us on the Bloomberg 453 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: Terminal website, app, or wherever you get your podcasts. We'd 454 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 1: love it if you took the time to rate and 455 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: review our show so it can reach more listeners. And 456 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: for more news and analysis during the week from Bloomberg Economics, 457 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: follow as Economics on Twitter. You can also find me 458 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 1: on at my Stephanomics. The story in this episode was 459 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: written and reported by Kata Dmitrieva. It was produced by 460 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: Magnus Hendrickson and edited by Scott Laman, who is also 461 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: the executive producer of Stephanomics Special Thanks to to Mevakuza, 462 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: Johannah Jeanson, Yana Randau and Ben Holland. Francesco Leviy is 463 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg podcast thre