1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cockley and Android 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, or watch us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner are in Moscow right now, 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: and they'll be meeting anytime now with the time change 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: with Vladimir Putin. It was supposed to be an evening, 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: early evening, early nighttime session and it's unclear how long 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 2: they're going to be going here, remembering there was a 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 2: twenty eight point piece plan the US hammered out with Russia. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 2: Once Ukrainians were involved, that was whittled down to nineteen 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 2: points and this could be a non starter already for 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin. We heard earlier from Dmitry Peskov, Kremlin spokesman, 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: who said that the meeting was expected to take place 16 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: early evening, but no details on unresolved issues or timing. 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 2: Negotiations will go on quote as long as necessary unquote. 18 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: President Zelenski of Ukraine watching all the while, and spoke 19 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: earlier about the process in Dublin. 20 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 3: Let's listen, we are. 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 4: Waiting for the results in America Russia negotiations. Today's results, 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 4: and I will react according to the results. If I 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 4: feel Phil that we can count on real specific dialogue, 24 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 4: not just wors with some results, we will admit and 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 4: he's very welcome to Ukraine. But I'm not sure that 26 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 4: they are up and on this way these days. 27 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 3: They are ready to combat it, but who knows. 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: It is unclear if a final product will emerge or 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: if it will be palatable to either side, which is 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: where we start our conversation with Leanna Fix, Senior Fellow 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: for Europe at the Council on Foreign Relations. Leanna, I'm 32 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: guessing you're expectations are pretty low here what could come 33 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: from this meeting today. 34 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 5: So what we are certainly going to see is at 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 5: least some kind of simulation from the Russian side that 36 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 5: they are willing to negotiate, Because this whole new negotiation 37 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 5: effort from a r Wassian perspective really served the purpose 38 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 5: of averting increased pressure from the United States and Europe, 39 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 5: and so far it has been successful. Pretending to be 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 5: willing to negotiate from the Russian side makes actually much 41 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 5: more sense than just refusing any negotiation proposal from the. 42 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: Outset interesting optics. 43 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: Yesterday, ahead of this meeting, Vladimir Putin decided to visit 44 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,959 Speaker 2: the troops, went to a battlefield command post and grew 45 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: visibly angry and emotional based on the reporting that we've 46 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: seen here. After a commander reported that Ukrainian soldiers were 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 2: dying by the hundreds, their bodies littering the tree lines. 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 3: This is a tragedy, he said with. 49 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: The Ukrainian audience, I guess in mind, a tragedy for 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 2: the Ukrainian people connected to the criminal policies of the 51 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: thieving junta that seized power in Kiev. This doesn't sound 52 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: like somebody who's prepared to sit across the table from 53 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 2: President Zelensky, does it? 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 5: No, And it also signals that from Russia's perspective, there's 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 5: no future for a Western Ukraine, even if Ukraine accepts 56 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 5: a Russian occupation and de facto control over Eastern Ukraine. 57 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 5: The bloodymin Putin does not see a future for Western 58 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 5: Ukraine in as a free society that can choose freely 59 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 5: its leaders, freely its alliances, and its liberal, democratic and 60 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 5: prosperous he wants to have all of Ukraine under his control, 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 5: either militarily in the east or politically by influencing Ukrainian 62 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 5: elections by weakening the Ukrainian state after any ceasefire agreement 63 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 5: on Russian terms has been found. So this is a 64 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 5: ceasefire would from Rusia's perspective, just be a different continuation 65 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 5: of warfare, political warfare for the west of Ukraine instead 66 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 5: of military warfare in the East of Ukraine. 67 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: Well, as Russia continues to make military advances, it's why 68 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: he was in the battlefield to show off the momentum 69 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: that his troops are enjoying. In what world does anyone 70 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: think that Vladimir Putin wants to negotiate or bring this 71 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: to an end. 72 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 5: So apparently the administration, the US administration does see such 73 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 5: signs of willingness to negotiate. But the problem here really 74 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 5: is that the US negotiation team seems to be very 75 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 5: open of taking Russian demands at face value and seems 76 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 5: much more reluctant to accept Russian to accept Ukrainian and 77 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 5: European redline. So if you go into negotiating into a 78 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 5: negotiation with the assumption that you just have to pressure 79 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 5: the weaker side enough to make a compromise work that 80 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 5: basically under mines Ukraine's existence as an independent state, then 81 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 5: of course you can get an outcome. And that is 82 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 5: what we are seeing right now, that is what the 83 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 5: Europeans and the Ukrainians are pushing against. And now we 84 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 5: have to see how the quivalent is playing this new proposal. 85 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 5: If he's trying to drag out negotiations Vladimir Putin, or 86 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 5: if he twice another way of averting pressure from Russia 87 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 5: and trying to achieve his still maximalist gains in Ukraine. 88 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: So what are you going to be watching after this meeting? 89 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: Steve Witkoff is going to call the boss, obviously, and 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: then we'll get presumably a readout from President Trump on 91 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: truth social How different will that read than what we 92 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 2: hear from the Russians. 93 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 5: The past. Vladimir Putin has not been particularly smart about 94 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 5: meeting with Trump and negotiating these idea. Years in Alaska, Remember, 95 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 5: he apparently, as was reported, entertained Trump with historical lessons 96 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 5: for really long time, something that Trump obviously is not 97 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 5: interested in at all. Distorted historical lessons all the more 98 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 5: about Ukraine belonging to Russia and so on. So I'll 99 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 5: be watching if Lati were Putting has become a little 100 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:24,840 Speaker 5: bit more flexible tactically, if he sees the need, you know, 101 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,840 Speaker 5: to give the Trump administration more reason to believe that 102 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 5: he's actually willing to negotiate, or if he is just 103 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 5: going back to his maximalist talk about a Ukrainian junter, 104 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 5: about the need for Russia to occupy all of Ukraine's 105 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 5: east and the end of any military support for Ukraine 106 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 5: by Western allies. I think it will be difficult to 107 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 5: spin a maximalist Russian position as a success for the 108 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 5: Trump administration. But if they if they don't get that, 109 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 5: it would be the third failed attempt to negotiate over Ukraine, 110 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 5: which then might result in another round of frustration and 111 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 5: perhaps increased pressure on Russia. Thinking tomahawks here, thinking the 112 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 5: Congress bill, sanctions bill on Russia. 113 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: Just lastly, Leanna, this is the sixth visit for Steve Whitcoff, 114 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: who has said openly that he's a big fan of 115 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: Vladimir Putin. 116 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: I think they met for six and a half hours 117 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 3: at one point. 118 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of a party is going 119 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: on over there, or what kind of a meeting is 120 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: going on over there, But when you see two people 121 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: get close like this, what is the other side? What 122 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: do Ukrainians make of Steve Witkoff? Do they trust him? 123 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 5: From an Ukrainian perspective, I think the main problem with 124 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 5: Witkov is that he likes expertise. It's difficult for him 125 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 5: to really distinguish what is a Russian bluff, what is 126 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 5: a Russian lie, and. 127 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: What is the actual reality. 128 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 5: He also does not have advisers around him on note 129 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 5: takers who can not only help some fact checking of 130 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 5: Ladimir Putin, but also some note take on what the 131 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 5: Russian side actually says. In the past, there has been 132 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 5: confusion about issues that Vitkov reported back to the United States, 133 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 5: a willingness to compromise from the Russian side, which is 134 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 5: not actually what the Russians or what Vladimir Putin has said. 135 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 5: So Vitkov from a Ukrainian perspective, is an unreliable negotiator 136 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 5: who tends to be too open from a Ukrainian perspective, 137 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 5: for Russian positions and does not fully seem to understand 138 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 5: the history of the conflict and also the history of 139 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 5: Wassian imperial ambitions in the region fully. 140 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 2: Well, well, great conversation, Leanne, I appreciate your joining us. 141 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 2: Leanna fixed with the Council on Foreign Relations where she's 142 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 2: Senior Fellow for Europe. We assemble our panel for their 143 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: take on this. We've been talking about it with Rick 144 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: and Jennie since this war began. Bloomber Politics contributors Genie 145 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: Shanzino and Rick Davis. He is our Republican str to 146 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 2: just and partner at Stone Court Capital. Genie is democracy 147 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: visiting fellow at Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. Really interesting, 148 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: Rick to hear her refer to Steve Whitkoff as an 149 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: unreliable negotiator, unable to tell what is a Russian bluff? 150 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: What is a Russian lie? No note takers in the room. 151 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: What's Witkoff going to get done here tonight? Look, I 152 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: think it's going to be just more the same. 153 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 6: I mean we've seen this act now for over a year, 154 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 6: where you know, wikaf will go and spend a lot 155 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 6: of time with Vladimir Putin and come back and basically 156 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 6: ape the Russian propaganda. I mean, when you're meeting with 157 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 6: Vladimir Putin, you have to assume everything he's telling you. 158 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 6: Is a lie, and it's all part of a Russian 159 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 6: propaganda campaign. I mean, nobody does it better than Vladimir Putin, 160 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 6: and so if you don't see through the smoke, you'll 161 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 6: never make progress toward a achievable end. And most people 162 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 6: I've talked to who are watching these negotiations with experience on, 163 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 6: you know, dealing with Vladimir Putin for the last few decades, 164 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 6: all agree that we're nowhere near getting anything done on 165 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 6: a deal because at some point the US has to 166 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 6: make it clear to the Russians, to Vladimir Putin, that 167 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 6: they have to accept a deal or it's only going 168 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 6: to get worse for them. 169 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 3: Either. 170 00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 6: More sanctions, the congressional sanctions that are being talked about now, 171 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 6: are exactly the kind of thing that can help break 172 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 6: the back of this negotiation, not Witkough building a trust 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 6: relationship with Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin doesn't trust anybody. He 174 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 6: doesn't trust Russians, he doesn't trust Americans, he doesn't trust Ukrainians. 175 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 6: So all that effort going forth to build that level 176 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 6: of trust in that relationship is frankly a waste of time. 177 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 2: So, GENI, why is President Trump so patient with Vladimir Putin. 178 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 7: You know, I think the headline we saw the other 179 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 7: day and one of the newspapers about making money not war. 180 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 7: I think this is a president who likes to make deals, 181 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 7: and I think he and people he associates with see 182 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 7: this as a deal that he can make if he 183 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 7: can just strong arm Ukraine and Europe to go along 184 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 7: with it. So I think there is some of that. 185 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 7: I also think he sees realistically that Ukraine does not 186 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 7: have much in terms of its ability going forward to 187 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 7: win on the battlefield without a lot more support from 188 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 7: Europe and the United States, which he doesn't see it 189 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 7: forthcoming from the US. So I think there are a 190 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 7: lot of reasons like that. We understand. This is Jared 191 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 7: Kushner's first face to face visit with Putin on this issue, 192 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 7: which I think is going to be fascinating. But I 193 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 7: agree with rip I don't see much coming out of this. 194 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 7: The twenty eight point plan that Witkoff originally brought forward 195 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 7: was a surrendered doctor that is not going to sell 196 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 7: in Ukraine or Europe. Even though Zelenski is politically weakened 197 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 7: in his own country given this corruption scandal, It's just 198 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 7: not going to fly and so they're going back with 199 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 7: this nineteen point plan. And yet you just discussed the 200 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 7: fact that Putin describes the Ukrainian government as a junta 201 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 7: and has said publicly numerous times he cannot and will 202 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 7: not make a deal with Zelenski. So you sort of 203 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 7: throw off your hands and say, if he's not even 204 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 7: willing to make a deal with Zelenski, who is the 205 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 7: leader of the other side, how is this going to happen? 206 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 7: And of course what we're seeing is he's not dealing 207 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 7: with Zelenski, He's dealing with Wipoff and Kushner. So I 208 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 7: think this is a non starter, and I think the 209 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 7: President's going to have some really tough decisions to make 210 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 7: going forward. But I am not confident he is going 211 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 7: to side with Europe and Ukraine on this anymore than 212 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 7: he already has well. 213 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 2: As we talk potential piece here in Ukraine. Rick another 214 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 2: attack on a Russian tanker here purportedly from Ukraine. It 215 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: was a drone attack that has now prompted Vladimir Putin 216 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: to warn Russia may consider striking the ships of other 217 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: countries supporting Ukraine if the surgeon attacks on Moscow's tanker 218 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 2: fleet does not stop. I don't know how many nations 219 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: that includes, but we're looking at you Europe and maybe 220 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 2: even the US. Rick when you hear this kind of 221 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: rhetoric against the backdrop of a peace negotiation, he's sitting 222 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 2: down with witkoffin Kushner maybe as we speak right now. 223 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: What does that tell you? 224 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 6: You know, it's just another piece of you know, Vladimir 225 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 6: Putin's Russian propaganda. I mean, the one thing that is 226 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 6: absolutely certain is that he cannot afford anyone else to 227 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 6: enter this fight but Ukraine. He feels like he can 228 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 6: beat Ukraine on a one on one and has of 229 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 6: course been four years and he hasn't accomplished that. So 230 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 6: it's been no easy task for him. But if any 231 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 6: Western organization country gets into this fight, it's over for him. 232 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 6: He cannot sustain a multi front battle against a Western, 233 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 6: well equipped, well trained military. 234 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: He's got a killing field going. 235 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 6: On right now, and as long as he's got young 236 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 6: men to put into it, he has an army. But 237 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 6: against a sophisticated, technologically advanced, well trained army of the West, 238 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 6: he doesn't stand a chance. So all of this is 239 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 6: just a big bluff. Remember he was going to use 240 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 6: nuclear weapons. You know, if certain acts were propitated against 241 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 6: him by the Ukrainians, this is all the same thing. 242 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 6: And so again you just can't take him on face value. 243 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 6: Everything's a game to Vladimir Putin, and if we're not 244 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 6: playing the same game and understand what he's trying to accomplish, 245 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 6: we're going to let him get the upper hand. 246 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 2: Well, maybe he's met a gamer in Donald Trump, Genie 247 00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 2: and our remaining thirty seconds. Remember when Trump was talking 248 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: about putting nuclear subs in the waters of Russia. 249 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And you know, they are quite an interesting match. 250 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 7: And Joe I also wanted to add the corruption scandal 251 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 7: in Ukraine that people describe as playing out like a 252 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 7: Netflix documentary or a movie online and on the internet, 253 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 7: is just another wrinkle in this entire thing that weakens 254 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 7: the Lensky. 255 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: Wow, it's not getting any easier, guys, but very glad 256 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: to have you with us. Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzano 257 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Politics contributors, the best in the business, and a 258 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: great panel. We thank you. We're going to turn to 259 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: what's happening in the Caribbean next. Congressman Carlos Semenez will 260 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: be with us only here on Bloomberg. Stay with us 261 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: on Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up 262 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: after this. 263 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 264 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on Apple, Cockleay, 265 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on 266 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch us live 267 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: on YouTube. 268 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition of Balance 269 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: of Power here on Bloomberg TV and Radio. 270 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: The cabinet meeting is still underway. 271 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: A president's going to hit two hours in just about 272 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: twenty minutes time here as he goes around the table, 273 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: we've done this together a few times now, the round 274 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: robin of agency heads giving him an update on what's 275 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: happening inside each agency that falls under the executive. The 276 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: first person we heard from, interestingly, after the president's own 277 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 2: remarks that he opened with, was the Defense Secretary, someone 278 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: we have heard a heck of a lot about over 279 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 2: the past couple of days. Here, Pete Hegseth speaking to 280 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: a couple of matters within the Pentagon, including retention rates, 281 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: enlistment levels, and then he went directly for the story 282 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 2: in Venezuela, having been accused effectively in the Washington Post 283 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: of ordering a kill everyone order when we attacked the 284 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: first alleged drug boat coming out of Venezuela. Didn't get 285 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: everybody with the first missile, as we discussed yesterday, were 286 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: two men clinging to wreckage, and a second missile was fired, 287 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 2: killing them as well. Washington Post suggesting that was Pete 288 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 2: Hegseth with the order, but it was, in fact, as 289 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: we've learned from the White House, Admiral Frank Bradley, well 290 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: regarded in the Pentagon a man of deep experience, knowing 291 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: as well that heg Seth was watching all the while. 292 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: He had said very clearly he watched the attack live 293 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 2: and in real time. So there are questions about chain 294 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: of command, which heg Seth did not address when he 295 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 2: spoke to reporters a short time ago. 296 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 8: Listen, as I've said, I'll say again, we've only just 297 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 8: begun striking narco boats and putting Narco terrorists at the 298 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 8: bottom of the ocean. 299 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: President Trump said, no, we're taking the bluffs off. We're 300 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 3: taking the fight to these designated terror organizations. And that's 301 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 3: exactly what we're doing. 302 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 8: So we're stopping the drugs we're striking the boats, we're 303 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 8: defeating narco terrorists. 304 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: Great opportunity to spend some time with Congressman Carlosimenez, the 305 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: Republican from Florida twenty eighth District. We've got Miami and 306 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: our sites is with us now on Bloomberg TV and Radio. 307 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: A member of the Armed Services Committee specializing in Readiness, 308 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 2: tactical era and landforces. Congressman, welcome back to Bloomberg TV 309 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: and Radio. It's great to have you. You've made pretty clear 310 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 2: that narco terrorists are in fact a true threat, a 311 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: terror threat to the United States. Does this need to 312 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 2: end with regime change or is this program underway? 313 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 5: Now? 314 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: What we need? 315 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 5: Now? 316 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 9: The program is underway with this is exactly what we need. 317 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 9: And even if there is regime change in Venezuela, there 318 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 9: are still other narco terrorists running around in the region, 319 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 9: in Colombia, Mexico. There's also you know, we know that 320 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 9: they've been responsible for a lot of the fentanyl it's 321 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 9: been coming into the United States and killing tens of thousands, 322 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 9: if not hundreds of thousands of Americans. And so even 323 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 9: if there is regime change in Venezuela, I think that's 324 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 9: just the beginning of the fight against these narco terrorists. 325 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: There's a lot of folks who are worried about what 326 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: might happen to Admiral Frank Bradley. We're hearing the term scapegoat, 327 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 2: knowing that there are a couple of important investigations under way, 328 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 2: and he's going to be testifying, we understand, on Thursday 329 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: before Armed Services. I don't know if you're going to 330 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 2: be part of that conversation, Congressman. I'd love to hear 331 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 2: what questions you would have for him, and whether you 332 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: are concerned that that order was unlawful. 333 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 10: Well, look, I. 334 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 9: Don't think that the law any order was unlawful. I 335 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 9: think that they have been designated as a foreign terrorist organization. 336 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 9: They're carrying deadly drugs, drugs that kill Americans and trying 337 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 9: to get them into the United States, and so I 338 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 9: don't see that any different. 339 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 10: Actually actually more dangerous. 340 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 9: And a boat full, a boat full of al Qaeda 341 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 9: terrorists bringing. 342 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 10: Bombs into the United States, I mean, that's the same 343 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 10: thing to me. 344 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 9: They're killing Americans, and Frankly, a boat load full of 345 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 9: drugs has the potential to kill far more Americans than 346 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 9: a boatful full of explosives, and so you know, everybody's 347 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 9: hung up on this. These are drugs, Yeah, these are 348 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 9: drugs that are killing Americans, all right, and these are 349 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 9: terrorists that are bringing these drugs into America. 350 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 10: They have been for years. 351 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 9: The fact that no administration has ever deemed it this way, 352 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 9: the fact that we're actually taking the fight to them 353 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 9: and this war to them. They've declared war on us 354 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 9: a long time ago, right, and now we're taking it 355 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 9: to them, and everybody's astounded. 356 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 10: To me, I'm saying, hey, it's about time that we. 357 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 9: Took the gloves off and we started treating these people 358 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 9: like what they are. 359 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 10: They're foreign terrorists that are killing American citizens. 360 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 3: I do appreciate your position on that. 361 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,239 Speaker 2: I guess the question is, after the first strike, when 362 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: you see two people no longer considered combatant, when they're 363 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: floating in the water, is it okay to go after 364 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: wounded survivors or any survivors and kill them as we 365 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: apparently did. 366 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 9: Yeah, but apparently you know that's only you know, that's what. 367 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 10: People are saying. 368 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 9: Okay, But also you've got to complete the mission, and 369 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 9: the mission is to destroy the boat, destroy all the 370 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 9: drugs and I'm not going to second guess, you know, 371 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 9: a highly decorated admirle in what he thought was necessarily 372 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 9: to complete the mission, because I'm sure what the mission 373 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 9: was is destroy the boat, destroy all the drugs, and 374 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 9: maybe and maybe, just maybe the boat wasn't fully destroyed, 375 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,439 Speaker 9: and maybe all the drugs weren't destroyed either, And so 376 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 9: you know, that's what I'm thinking is actually what happened. 377 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 10: And I'm not going to second guess this admiral in 378 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 10: what what was going through his mind when he when 379 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 10: he when he. 380 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 9: Gave the order to launch a second strike. I mean, 381 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 9: a lot of it has to be investigated, and that's fine. 382 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 9: Bring the ad on before you know, the committees, and 383 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 9: then we'll we'll ask him and discuss exactly what happened 384 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 9: and the sequence of events. But I'm not going to jump, 385 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 9: you know, in front of this and say, oh my god, 386 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 9: you know it's horrible and all that. 387 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 10: No, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna. I'm going to 388 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 10: give the admiral the benefit of the data. I think he. 389 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: Deserves that sure well, and I know that you'll have 390 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: a chance to question him. So we don't want you 391 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 2: to jump to conclusions here. I guess I just wonder 392 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 2: if if some of these alleged Narco terras would be 393 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: more valuable if we took him prisoner, try to go 394 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 2: up the chain of command. 395 00:21:58,359 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 10: Oh, maybe they would be all right. 396 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 9: But you know, remember, you somehow think that there are 397 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 9: assets in the area that somehow can activate a rescue 398 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 9: operation or an apprehension. 399 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 10: You know, a lot of these things happen. 400 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 9: Because you know, you're talking about a really large area 401 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 9: of the earth, and we don't have assets everywhere. Now, 402 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 9: can we reach out and touch you, Yeah, we can 403 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 9: reach out and touch you, but it doesn't necessarily mean 404 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 9: that we have a boat in the area, a ship 405 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 9: in the area that can actually go up and effectuate 406 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 9: that rescue. And so you know, again I don't have 407 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 9: all the details of what was in the area. I 408 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 9: don't have all the details of what could have happened. 409 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 9: And again, I'm not going to second guess the admiral 410 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 9: on this instance unless you know, some action that he 411 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 9: took was actually something that we can second guess, and 412 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 9: we don't have that information yet. 413 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 3: President's talking to Maduro. 414 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: Congressman, could you see a diplomatic solution here, or does 415 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: this need to end militarily. 416 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 10: Now, I think I can see. 417 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 9: A diplomatic solution where Maduro leaves quietly or leaves publicly, 418 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 9: goes to a country that will offer him asylum. I 419 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 9: think the president has actually offered him and said you 420 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 9: got to leave now. The President didn't offer him as 421 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 9: amnesty because you know, Maduro is guilty of crimes. We 422 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 9: have a fifty million dollar bounty on his head, and 423 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 9: so the president can't offer amnesty. 424 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 10: But I can see. 425 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 9: Where Maduro can end up in a third and you know, 426 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 9: some other country where maybe there's no extradition, and then 427 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 9: then he can live out his life and his family. 428 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 10: I'd rather see that. I don't see. 429 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 9: I don't want to see any further bloodshed, you know, 430 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 9: the final things that has to happen. 431 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 10: But Duro has to leave. 432 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 9: He's the illegitimate ruler of Venezuela. There's a legitimate government 433 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 9: in waiting. He is the head of a designated terrorist organization, 434 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 9: Cartel Dero Soles. They have been killing Americans for years. 435 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 9: There's blood on his hands, and so yeah, for the 436 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 9: benefit of the people of Venezuela, but also for the 437 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 9: benefit of the security the United States and his citizens. 438 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 10: Maduro has to go. 439 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 2: How do we rationalize that with the president's decision to 440 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: pardon the former president of Honduras, Wan Orlando Hernandez, who 441 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 2: was convicted for moving hundreds of tons of cocaine into 442 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 2: this country. How's that coming from the same administration, Congressman, 443 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 2: is that something that you supported? 444 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 9: No, nobody asked me, And look, I'm I'm not a 445 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 9: big fan of pardons by anybody. 446 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 10: If somebody has been convicted. 447 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 9: The president has his reasoning. He felt that it was unjust, 448 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 9: and so you know he has that power. But you know, 449 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 9: it doesn't it doesn't negate the fact of the actions 450 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 9: that he's taken against against Maduro and the narco traffickers 451 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 9: from Venezuela. So I fully support that. I really didn't 452 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 9: have that much information on this former president and what 453 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 9: he was convicted on. Frankly, the first time I'd heard 454 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 9: his name was a couple of days ago when they 455 00:24:58,760 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 9: mentioned the pardon. 456 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: President says it looks like Honduras is trying to change 457 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: the results of their presidential election, he posted last evening. 458 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 3: If they do, there will be hell to pay. 459 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: Are you concerned about the US getting involved in the 460 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: Honduras election? 461 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 9: You know, I'm concerned about the Honduran government, which is 462 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 9: a leftist government, far left government government is trying to 463 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 9: steal the elections. They stopped counting after forty six percent 464 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 9: of the vote was put in with the two opposition 465 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,919 Speaker 9: leaders far out in front of the incumbent government. And 466 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 9: so we had had some conversations with some of these 467 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 9: you know, other candidates in the last couple of weeks, 468 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 9: told us what was going to happen if, in fact 469 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 9: the results weren't coming their way, and sure enough, they 470 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 9: stopped counting. And yeah, I have concerns that in Honduras 471 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 9: they're going to try to steal the election, just like 472 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 9: Maduro stole the election last year. 473 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 10: This is how these government works. 474 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 9: Okay, they used democracy against democracy to make sure the 475 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 9: democracy doesn't win out in the end. And it's no 476 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 9: joke to the people of Honduras. And so I'm very 477 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 9: concerned of the fact they stopped counting after forty six 478 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 9: percent when they knew and they saw the results, these 479 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 9: results that they were going to get blown out of 480 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 9: the water. How convenient that there's a stop counting and 481 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 9: now they're going to probably declare themselves the winner and 482 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 9: steal the election. That's not democracy and that shouldn't exist 483 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 9: in our hemisphere. 484 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 2: Congressman Carlos Menez, Republican from Florida, We thank you, Congressman 485 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: for your time. That initial digital push will be followed 486 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: up by hand counted votes. 487 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 6: This is Bloomberg. 488 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: Stay with us on Balance of Power. We'll have much 489 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: more coming up after this. 490 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 491 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 492 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 1: Apple Coarclay, and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 493 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 494 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty. 495 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: We've been watching bitcoin almost as much as stocks lately 496 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: because it's been so intrinsically tied to the markets. Remember 497 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 2: when it was supposed to be its own universe. That 498 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: was the whole point the decentralized cryptocurrency. It is bouncing 499 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: back today up fifty four hundred dollars in approaching ninety 500 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 2: two thousand dollars a coin. So maybe it bottomed unclear, 501 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 2: as we've had multiple folks, including Mike McLoone at Bloomberg 502 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 2: Intelligence predict another crypto winter. Michael Sailor also preparing for 503 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:34,199 Speaker 2: one at Strategy. Despite the love, this administration has shown 504 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: the embrace of the crypto industry as we remember the 505 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: ways with Donald Trump since he took office. 506 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 11: Listen last year, I promised to make America the bitcoin 507 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 11: superpower of the world and the crypto capital of the planet. 508 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 11: With the right legal framework, institutions large and spore will 509 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 11: be liberated to invest, innovate, and take part in one 510 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 11: of the most exciting technological revolutions in. 511 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 10: MyD in history. 512 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 12: For years, you were mocked and dismissed and counted out. 513 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 12: You accounted out as little as a year and a 514 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 12: half ago. But this signing is a massive validation. 515 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: A massive validation as we watch the gyrations in the 516 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 2: crypto market. Pleasure to spend some time with Gary Gensler 517 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,840 Speaker 2: as we consider the crypto space regulations and the plumbing 518 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 2: in the market. He's with us live now, Former Chair 519 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 2: of Course of the Securities and Exchange Commission, Professor of 520 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 2: the practice at MIT Sloan School of Management. Mister Gensler, 521 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. Is that you 522 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: buying the dip in bitcoin. 523 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 13: Joe, It's good to be back and good to be 524 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 13: with all of your viewers, but I'm not participating in 525 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 13: that market. 526 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 3: Well, what do you think of this? 527 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: We've spent a lot of time talking about this when 528 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: you were in the job at the SEC, and the 529 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: many warnings that you made about this potentially risky asset, 530 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: and we're witnessing a reckoning in the marketplace right now. 531 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 3: What do you think is behind it? 532 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 13: Look, I think it's a risk asset. In the American 533 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 13: public and the worldwide public has been fascinated with cryptocurrencies, 534 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 13: but it's a highly speculative, volatile asset. And putting aside 535 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 13: Bitcoin for a minute, all the thousands of other tokens, 536 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 13: not the stable coins that are backed by US dollars, 537 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 13: but all the thousands of their tokens, you have to 538 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 13: ask yourself, what's the fundamentals, what's underlying it? You don't 539 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 13: get a dividend, you don't get usual returns, and so 540 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 13: the investing public just needs to be aware of those 541 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 13: risks in this highly volatile space. 542 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 3: What do you make of the politicization of crypto? 543 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: The fact that the Trump administration has become involved to 544 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: this extent has reportedly turned off some investors as they 545 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 2: wan watch the Trump family enrich themselves with gains like this, 546 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: Is this a democrat versus Republican thing? 547 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 3: Now? 548 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 13: No, I don't think so. I mean it's about our 549 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 13: capital markets. The US have the greatest capital markets and 550 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 13: they benefit from common sense rules of the road. And 551 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 13: when you buy and sell a stock or a bond, 552 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 13: you want to get you know, various information, and you 553 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 13: want to know that you're getting the same treatment as 554 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 13: you know, the big investors. That's that's the fairness in 555 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 13: these capital markets that are so important. 556 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 2: For a lot about the impact of ETFs on this space, 557 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 2: that's something you know a lot about the initial ETFs 558 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: that were greenlit to start buying crypto. Did that just 559 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 2: change the plumbing in the crypto market here by tying 560 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 2: it directly to the stock market. 561 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 13: Well, ever, since anti equity finance goes towards centralization, So 562 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 13: it's not surprised that that which was started as a 563 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 13: decentralized ecosystem and that was the vision, has become more 564 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 13: integrated and more centralized. Investors can express themselves in gold 565 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 13: and silver through exchange traded funds and as of a 566 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 13: couple of years ago, actually all the way back to 567 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 13: my first year in the job. They were exchange traded 568 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 13: funds on bitcoin futures, just as there is for gold 569 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 13: and silver. 570 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 571 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 2: Well, mister chairman, I want to ask you about, speaking 572 00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: of plumbing in the markets, what happened at the CME 573 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: last week and whether you think the CFTC should be 574 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 2: investigating this outage. Should the CME be facing additional scrutiny. 575 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 13: Look, it's something really well understood that our major stock 576 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 13: exchange is and futures markets, the Chicago Mercantile Exchange trades 577 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 13: very consequential parts of our US Treasury market in interst 578 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 13: rates markets their critical infrastructure. And Thanksgiving evening they had 579 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 13: an outage at a data center. Importantly, it wasn't actually 580 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 13: their computers. It was the chillers, as I understand it, 581 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 13: the cooling system in this data center, and they had 582 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 13: an outage for about ten hours, and so markets planned 583 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 13: for that. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange considered they didn't go 584 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 13: to their backup data center. 585 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: They stayed. 586 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 13: Partly because it was Thanksgiving evening. As I understand it, 587 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,560 Speaker 13: I'm sure that they at the Chicago Mercantile Exchange and 588 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 13: the various regulators will keep looking at it and look 589 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 13: for lessons learned. You always look for lessons learn and 590 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 13: how can we do things better in the future. 591 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: Well, we've experienced an incredible number of about this at Bloomberg. 592 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 2: Our readers are asking, our viewers and listeners are asking 593 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: about this. 594 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 3: It put a real chill in the markets. 595 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: To use a terrible pun in this case, mister chairman, 596 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 2: you don't sound that worried about this being systemic. 597 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 13: Look, I think that the New York Stock Exchange, CME, 598 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 13: the clearinghouses are systemically important, no doubt about it, systemically important. 599 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 13: But what happened here at this specific moment is the 600 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 13: cooling system, as I understand, had to glitch. By the way, 601 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 13: this data center is operated by a third party. It's 602 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 13: not operated by CME, so they have a contract for 603 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 13: a certain performance levels, and they didn't go to their 604 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,120 Speaker 13: backup data center, which is I think located elsewhere in 605 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 13: New Jersey. 606 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 3: If this would have happen. 607 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 13: At ten am on a Monday, I thinks the management 608 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 13: team would make a different decision and probably would switch 609 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 13: over to the backup data center more quickly. The markets 610 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 13: probably would have a little less liquidity. Not every high 611 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 13: frequency trading shop or principal trading firm has the same 612 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 13: connectivity to the backup data center, so that's an interesting 613 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 13: business choice. And for your institutional listeners, if that happened, 614 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 13: they'd probably see a little less liquidity until they get 615 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 13: back to that primary data center. 616 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 2: I'm always fascinating to look onto the hood with Gary Gensler, 617 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 2: former chair of the SEC, professor of the practice MIT 618 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: Sloan School of Management. Thank you, mister chairman for the time. 619 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make 620 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 2: sure to subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, 621 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts, and you can find 622 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: us live every weekday from Washington, DC at Newtimeeastern at 623 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: Bloomberg dot com.