WEBVTT - Listener Mail: Legend of a Mind 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:10.680 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.760 your Mind a listener mail. This is Robert Lamb and 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.160 this is Joe McCormick, and it's Monday, the day of 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:18.479 the week. We read back some messages you've sent into 0:00:18.520 --> 0:00:20.520 the show account, which I always say at the end 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:22.239 of the episode, I'll say at the beginning this time 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:25.400 it is contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:27.600 com if you ever want to get in touch, maybe 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.400 a little bit more accessible up here, Rob did did 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.080 you and Seth do some kind of teenage Mutant Ninja 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:37.160 Turtles related uh listener mail episode? While I was out? Yes, 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:41.600 basically we I pulled up to listener mails. UH one 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:45.400 about elden Ring and Cauldron's Okay, are you have you 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:47.159 played that game? Do you have any Yeah? Yeah, I have. 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.800 With this Cauldron character, I think maybe I think I've 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:57.360 come across him once. Okay, I'm I'm progressing very slowly 0:00:57.360 --> 0:00:59.800 in elden Ring. Okay, well, I guess it's this is 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:01.640 what you missed that one because it has spoilers in 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.200 it for elden Ring. But yeah, we also talked about 0:01:05.240 --> 0:01:08.360 the new Teenage meeting Ninja Turtles arcade game Shredders Revenge, 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:11.600 So that was pretty fun, just a little reminiscent about 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.880 old Turtles games and Turtles movies and the cartoon a 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:17.280 little bit. Well, we got some feedback on the episode 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.600 coming up later on, but first, I guess we should 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.000 talk about document duplication because we got this message from Ian, 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.280 who has written in before to provide a lawyer's perspective 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.479 on several issues. Always nice to have, and Ian had 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.880 thoughts about originals and copies. So Rob, if you don't mind, 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.360 I'm gonna jump right into this one. Go for it. 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.600 Dear Rob and Joe. I was recently listening to your 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:48.440 two part episode about the history of duplicating documents, and 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:50.320 I was struck by your discussion of the fact that 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.440 in ancient times, the written record of an agreement or 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.240 other legally significant proclamation would sometimes embody the legal rights 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.600 in responsivelities associated with it, and that destroying the record 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:08.000 would be tantamount to terminating those rights and responsibilities. Yeah, 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.160 this was in the context of of practices in ancient 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:15.760 Greece having to do with like uh contracts and decrees 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:18.959 by rulers and treaties and so forth, that there was 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.840 a widespread assumption that in order to show that this 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.800 document was no no longer held true or was no 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.520 longer in force, you would have to destroy all the 0:02:27.560 --> 0:02:31.400 copies of that document. Ian continues. You mentioned that in 0:02:31.520 --> 0:02:34.120 modern times we do not think of written records in 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:37.160 this way, and for instance, would not have to destroy 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:39.920 an out of date employee handbook as a way of 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.160 showing it was no longer in force. You're absolutely correct 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.280 in most instances. But as an attorney, I am well 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.280 acquainted with one area where originals do carry the metaphysical 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:54.600 embodiment of abstract concepts they represent. That is the law. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.840 The law, particularly trial procedure, is filled with instances where 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:02.640 originals have a level of importance that exceeds what society 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:06.960 in general gives them. With wills, for example, the original 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:10.880 truly embodies the wishes of the uh. Oh, I don't 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:15.360 know this word. Testator or testator, I'm gonna say testator, uh, 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:17.960 the person who made the will, to the extent that 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.200 if the testator voluntarily destroys the original will, it does 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.160 render that will null and void. And even if copies exist, 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.400 they are of no effect. So while a scene in 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:32.440 a movie with a character tearing up an iou may 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:35.520 not actually have any meaning. If they tear up a will, 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:40.400 it most certainly does. More generally, there is a principle 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.480 in courtroom procedure known as the best evidence rule, which 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.680 requires that the original of a document or a video 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:52.280 or audio recording, etcetera be presented rather than a copy. 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.120 A copy is only allowed if the original has been lost, destroyed, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.920 or is otherwise unavailable. Even then you're not technically admit 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.000 the copy is direct evidence in its own right. It's 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.520 always the original that is legally relevant, and the copy 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.920 is merely admitted as evidence of what the contents of 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:14.000 the original were. So if so, if you have a 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.000 theft caught on security video and do not have access 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:20.040 to the original video, you may present a copy not 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.080 to prove that the accused committed the theft, but to 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.880 prove that the original video showed the accused committing the theft. 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.920 It's definitely a case of legal hair splitting, but as 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.839 a practical matter, copies are typically treated as simply admissible, 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.320 at least in my jurisdiction. But that is the technical 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.360 legal theory underlying that sort of evidence, and I suspected 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:43.320 dates back to a time when copies of documents were 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.560 uncommon or inexact. Yeah, this sounds like it would be 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:49.919 based on a world where copies may introduce changes or 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.520 errors as a as a regular matter of course, rather 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.960 than an era of digital duplication Inan goes On. Also 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.920 tangentially related to the legal realm, if you ever get 0:04:59.920 --> 0:05:02.919 a speeding ticket, you may encounter a modern use of 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.240 carbon paper. Many police still write their tickets on a 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.400 stack of carbon paper, which yields the original ticket and 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.360 two copies for us locally, the bottom or pink copy 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.640 is given to the person who got the ticket, the 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.400 middle or green copy goes to the court, and the 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:21.720 original white copy goes to the local prosecutor. It has 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:23.919 always seemed odd to me that the copy that is 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:26.359 the hardest to read is the one given to the 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:30.440 person accused of the traffic violation. Uh. And then finally, 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.520 I'm gonna summarize Ian's last point, But it's an interesting 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.599 comparison between illuminated manuscripts, which we talked about in the 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.320 with relevance to the idea of fact simile, that sometimes 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.799 copying a document is not only accurately capturing the code 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.200 of its text, but literally capturing every element of the 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.200 design of each page, such as with you know, medieval 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.960 manuscripts that might have illustrations or beautiful calligraphy or something 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.559 like that. And Ian compares this to the novel House 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.719 of Leaves, which I think is a great point of comparison, 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:04.400 because that's a novel that is not just the code 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.680 of its text, but it is how each individual page appears, 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.840 because it's a lot many parts of that novel are 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:15.480 sort of weird sort of artifacts or imagery that they're 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.200 like documents as documents, not documents as just the text 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.440 of the document. Yeah, it's it's kind of it's kind 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:26.279 of a one of a kind book. Uh, quite a 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.800 rewarding experience, but yeah, difficult to compare to most other books. 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:31.520 I think you might be able to compare it to 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:35.600 like William Blake, you know, the Originals, where the poems 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.880 are associated with with paintings or illustrations. There's kind of 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.680 an appearance of the page that adds to the value 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.400 of the text. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's one of these 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:46.479 which you do have to read it in in that 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:50.599 original format. You can't, like I can't imagine reading it 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:54.040 on a an e book format or an audio book format, 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.919 and certainly, uh, there's been a lot of discussions about 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.279 any kind of film or TV adaptation, though apparently was 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.000 sort of in the works not too long ago. But 0:07:03.200 --> 0:07:05.000 I don't think it went anywhere. I don't know how 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:08.880 that would work. That doesn't I think it seems unadaptable. 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.760 I think if memory serves, like the principle was this is, 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.320 this cannot be a complete adaptation. It has to be 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.080 something that is kind of auxiliary to it. So sort 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.040 of like a continuation of the House of Leaves project 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:27.600 um as opposed to a a film version offset project. 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:31.120 You know. Yeah, and then finally Ian says thank you 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:34.320 as always for your entertaining and lightning podcast. I'll leave 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:38.000 you with one final thought about modern infinite copying and distribution. 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:41.040 If you mark every email as important, then none of 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:46.400 them are what wise words and I agree, um so yeah, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.440 a couple of comments on that. Number One. I have 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.200 in my life received a speeding ticket that was written 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:55.760 on carbon paper, and I the copy I got, I 0:07:55.800 --> 0:07:58.400 could not tell you what it said. It was not text, 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:02.560 it was just squiggles. And I always wondered that if 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.480 I'd had the resources of the time to like take 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.440 it to court and fight it out. I wonder if 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.280 the fact that the copy I had was completely illegible 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:13.000 would have been able to get me out of that ticket. 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:14.720 I don't know, Yeah, I don't know. We'll have to 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:16.800 I'll have to ask for more more legal insight from 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.320 listeners on that one. But yeah, this was I guess. 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:21.560 I was a teenager at the time, and I got 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:23.720 it in a place different from where I lived, so 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.320 it just wasn't yeah, I could do really, I just 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:33.160 had to pay it, all right. This one comes to 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.520 us from Laney. Hey, Robin, Joe, my name is Laney 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.040 and I'm from cut Off, Louisiana, and you can say 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:43.840 it on air. I wanted to write into you about, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:46.800 in effect simily episodes. Even on the first episode, I 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.079 kept waiting for you all to talk about carbon copies. 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.240 I had to laugh when Joe talked about carbon copies 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:54.800 in the twenty one century, because I still use them today. 0:08:55.120 --> 0:08:58.360 I'm a middle school teacher, and our behavior Consequences sheets 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.200 are on carbon cop our behavior and fractions fall into 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:07.400 three categories. Recessed attentions, minor infractions, and major infractions. Major 0:09:07.440 --> 0:09:10.520 infractions are done completely on the computer, but our recessed 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.720 attention forms and minor infraction forms are on carbon copy 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.840 paper handouts for recessed detentions and minor infractions. The original 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:20.679 copy is for the students to bring home and have 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.920 the parents signed. The first carbon copy goes to the 0:09:22.920 --> 0:09:26.440 teacher who writes the infraction ticket to keep their records, 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:28.720 and the second carbon copy goes to the disciplinary and 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.880 at school still using them in two and I don't 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.040 see them going away since. Also I remember when I 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.920 realized the CC on email stood for carbon copy mind blown, 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.079 mind blown emoji. Thanks for the incredible work you do, 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.840 Lanni from Louisiana. I thought this email was either a 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.719 very interesting coincidence or somehow indicative of something in the zeitgeist. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.400 That two major remaining uses for carbon paper that have 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.400 been mentioned by listeners have to do with punishment, speeding 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:02.160 tickets and disciplinary records. Also interesting that in the school 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.760 the offender gets the original copy, or at least their 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.680 parents do, and in the speeding ticket the offender gets 0:10:07.679 --> 0:10:12.559 the worst least least fidelity uh fight. What's the adjective 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.560 version of fidelity? The least uh? The least good copy. 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:19.880 Have you Have you ever gotten carbon paper from a 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.640 school or is that another thing here? I'm trying to 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:26.480 remember the last time I received a carbon A lot 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:28.280 of times, you know, you get carbon copy on stuff 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.000 and it's, um, it's not important. It's something that's it's 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.240 almost instantly thrown away. UM. So I'm not sure if 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.120 they're still using it in terms of like place places 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.040 I've been going in, like the local school. I don't know. 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:47.840 All right, you're ready to move on to some responses 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.040 to Cauldron's. Oh yeah, Cauldron's it's the it's the flavor 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:54.440 of the month. Let's do it, okay. Uh, we got 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:58.680 a cool message from Michaela. I'm gonna summarize and paraphrase 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:00.800 a few parts of it. So Michaela begins by saying 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.319 some nice things about the show and by recommending we 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.719 check out an email newsletter called Dracula Daily, which is 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.319 an interesting concept. Basically from what I can tell, it's 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.680 that since Dracula is an epistolary novel, meaning you know, 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.160 it's made up of fictional letters, diary entrees, newspaper articles, 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.720 and so forth. But I'll have a date attached to them. 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:23.880 You can actually serve up the novel along its own timeline, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:29.040 So subscribers to Dracula Daily apparently receive the individual parts 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.840 of the novel on the dates of the year that 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.920 those parts are written or published within the fictional timeline. 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:38.400 I like that idea. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting idea. 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.840 But finally, MICHAELA had something to add about our discussion 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.880 of stone soup. So to briefly refresh on the concept 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:50.560 of the sound stoop sound stoop stone soup tail. Uh. 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:53.240 You know, the story is that like someone in the story, 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.040 maybe a soldier or a traveler or a beggar or 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.000 somebody crafty, comes into a town and they have no 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.320 food of their own, but they bring a pot and 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.360 they put some water in it, and they put a 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.960 stone in the pot and they start to boil it. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.360 And then locals come around asking, hey, what are you 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:11.120 doing there? And they say, well, I'm making some stone soup. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.319 It's it's gonna be delicious, but you know, I need 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:15.720 a little bit of garnish, right, there's one ingredient I 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:17.920 don't have. And uh, they say, would you happen to 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.760 have an onion? That would really make the stone soup perfect? 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.880 And then I'll share it with you, and the person says, well, sure, 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:28.080 I'll contribute one onion, and by that same strategy they 0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:31.199 can get in some carrots and some garlic and some 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:34.480 herbs and some seasoning, some salt and pepper, and some 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.600 meats and stuff, with each person thinking well, I'm just 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.520 contributing a little tiny bit, and then I get some 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:41.800 of this delicious soup, and by the end you have 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.720 an actual soup that's full of nutrition and flavor that 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:47.960 was built with no starting ingredients. So I think the 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:52.280 story is mostly supposed to be a parable about resourcefulness 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:56.760 and sharing and communal activities and stuff. But uh Michaela 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.800 contributes a sort of literal interpretation of the story. She says, 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:02.680 I don't remember where I heard this, but there was 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.480 a version of the story where the stone itself actually 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.360 added flavor to the stone soup. The story was that 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.680 it was still a ruse, but the stone carried some 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.960 flavors from previous soups it had been in. Perhaps the 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.839 stones used back then also contributed to the flavor of 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.040 the soups they were used in, not just if they 0:13:20.080 --> 0:13:22.920 had been used in a soup before, but from minerals 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.840 that would leach out, adding to the overall nutrition via 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.760 small doses of iron, calcium, or salt and the like. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.840 I don't know how scientifically viable this is at all, 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:35.120 but it makes some sense in my head. Well, MICHAELA, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.880 I looked this up, and sure enough, I found several 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.319 accounts of people actually claiming to have used or two 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:44.640 have known people who use stones in soup for different 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:48.840 reasons such as supposedly adding flavor or nutrition. And again, 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.520 like you, I can't vouch for this actually working to 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.880 add much flavor nutrition, but that was the reasoning, and 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.319 it seems like this was a practice in some Depression 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.360 era American cooking, like with the idea that if you 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.640 had a stone that was used in a pot that 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:05.120 cooked previous soup, you put that stone in the next 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:08.079 soup pot. It's like a way of adding extra flavor. 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:10.559 It just you know, but brings it from the last spot. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.480 But MICHAELA also had some comments on our discussion of 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.360 the earliest cooking pots, of those Joeman ceramic cooking pots 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.400 having round bottoms rather than flat one. So some of 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.520 the earliest ceramic cooking vessels were actually things that wouldn't 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.480 stand up on their own. They either probably had to 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:29.800 be suspended over a fire or or held in some 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:34.640 kind of holding frame or something. So MICHAELA says, spherical 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.160 earthen pots could have a few advantages off the top 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:39.720 of my head, being that a sphere has the greatest 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:43.360 volume to surface area ratio, It could proportionally hold more 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:46.840 than a cylindrical pot, and it would retain heat for longer. 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.400 I can also imagine if you're putting stones in it 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:51.720 to heat it up, having a spherical shape would mean 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.840 the rocks would fall to the same central point, less 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.600 fishing around for them. That that last idea, That that's 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.600 interesting anyway, Kala says, feel free to read this on 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.480 listener mail, edit out whatever to make it fit. I 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.400 would be delighted and to make my like decade. I 0:15:07.440 --> 0:15:09.360 would love to see you guys if you come to 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.000 the Twin Cities. Well, if we ever, if we're ever 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.240 on tour, we will certainly announce it ahead of time. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:17.440 So yeah, if if we make it up that way, 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.400 you can be there. You can't help a thing back 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.480 of the stone soup thing though, and think, well, you 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.840 can also have certainly some magical thinking related the to 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.720 the idea that this stone was once in a really 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.880 good soup. If this stone were to be in your soup, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.880 then surely years would be as delicious. Uh. In the 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:36.560 same way that you know, we've talked about this on 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.160 the show before, like ideas of say, um, you know, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.160 treating a weapon to to cure the wound, sort of 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.840 a situation exactly. Uh. And it also makes me think 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.720 it could be a sort of magical version of the 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:51.240 idea of the infinite broth. I'm sure you've heard of. 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.800 You know, there are places that will just keep the 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.320 same pot of souper stew or broth bubbling for maybe 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.280 years at a time, and you'd be constantly taking parts 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.360 of it out to eat, but also adding to the 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.040 same pot. And uh and like they're I think there 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.680 are restaurants that do this. I can't remember where I've 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.440 read about this happening. I think I think this might 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.160 be a sort of Eastern phenomenon. But you just keep 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.480 the same pot going and uh. And I think the 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.520 idea is it just continually develops more and more complex 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.800 flavor over the years. Well, this reminds me though some 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:25.480 of the like the Irish and or Welsh smiths we 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.120 were looking at and talking about the cauldron as as 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:32.880 a source of infinite goodness. Perhaps that has some connections 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:43.600 to this as well. All right, let's go to another 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:47.120 one here. This one comes to us from Matt good Day. 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:50.680 Fellas really enjoyed the series and cauldrons. It was great 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.040 to hear so many insights about a significance of such 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:56.920 objects to Gaelic and Britonic cultures, as well as many 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.040 others mentioned. Discussions of cauldron esque ups and the communal 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.879 nature of cauldron's reminded me of the Gaelic and Gaelic 0:17:04.960 --> 0:17:10.399 warning um um. They pronounced this wrong. Uh koatch, also 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:14.880 commonly known as quake, which I think is a Scots 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.399 version of the older Gaelic name a quat katch, is 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.879 a sort of ceremonial drinking vessel used for special occasions. 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.120 I've always pronounced it like quake, but I'm a full 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.320 blooded Canadian, so I leave it to our Scottish and 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:34.280 Irish cousins to clarify. So quake, uh kowatch, quatch quake Um. 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:36.840 I'm not not sure where to land on this one, 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.679 but not quatto, not quato. Anyway, my friends and I 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.840 have employed the We'll go with quake, since this is 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.160 in his voice to imbibe in a wee drum during 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.040 Robert Burns night suppers before COVID. Anyway, I believe they 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.639 are also used as part of wedding ceremonies. Despite getting 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.800 kilted up for my own betrothal, though my wife and 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.080 I did not share a drink from a quake at 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.720 our own ceremony, However, I have heard of others doing so. 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.000 I thought it was an interesting example, if not just 0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:11.800 an extension of the discussion around the role of cauldron 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:16.240 like vessels in community relationships, feasting, etcetera. I imagine the 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.639 quake was an object for every day use back in 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.640 the day, but additionally would take on a ceremonial role 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.000 during events or cultural formalities uh such as when to 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.840 clan chieftains meet or when welcoming a stranger seeking shelter. 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.760 I don't have much direct knowledge myself. It just seems 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.840 logical given the nature of older clan based societies where 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:39.800 hospitality played such a critical role in community relations those 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:43.199 of the Gaelic world, just being one of many examples. 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.679 That's it. Just thought you might find it an interesting example. Matt, 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.320 that is interesting. I don't think I knew about this, uh, 0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.240 this type of artifact though. Of course even in our 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.920 our episodes we talked about sometimes the gray line between 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:00.560 a bowl and a drinking vessel. Uh. Yeah, so there's 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:02.800 there's a certain amount of overlap. I think, yeah, what 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.960 is a grail? You know, you watch Monty Python. It's 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.399 a drinking cup, right, But but isn't a grail originally? 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.520 I mean something like cauldron or maybe in some context 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:21.400 it does, all right. This next message is in response 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.080 to a previous Listener mail where somebody wrote in about 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.600 a traditional Mongolian dish and some interesting methods of animal 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.840 butchery and cookery. So this is from m M. Says Hi, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.000 Robert and Joe. A couple of weeks ago, somebody wrote 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.280 about a traditional Mongolian dish where a goat's skull and 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.040 hide is used as a sealed vessel for cooking other ingredients, 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.639 and you asked about other cuisine traditions that did something similar. 0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.960 Here in Colombia, we use that method to cook the 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.440 traditional lechona Spanish for suckling pig. Although the modern version 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:55.880 uses a full grown animal instead of a small one. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.360 It evolved from an older Spanish tradition that was basically 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:03.199 an oven cooked spatch cocked piglet. To make lacona, the 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:06.320 pigs meat, bones, and organs are removed, while keeping the 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.320 skin of the back and torso with the head intact. 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:12.240 The meat is cut in small pieces and stuffed back 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:16.880 into the skin, mixed with spices, onions, green peas, sometimes 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.920 rice because it's cheap but sacrilegious according to the traditional recipe, 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.400 and then you stitch the skin to seal everything inside, 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.040 bathe it in orange juice, and cook the whole thing 0:20:27.040 --> 0:20:29.639 in a brick oven until the inside is done and 0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.520 has infused with the drippings from the skin's fat, and 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.080 the outer layer is thin and crispy, similar to the 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.560 skin in peking duck. A single achona can feed a 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.800 small army or an average Colombian family gathering winky face emoji, 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.080 with each person getting a generous scoop of the stuffing 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.640 along with a square of the thin, crispy skin. It's very, 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:51.919 very good, despite some people finding the side of a 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:55.359 pig's head a bit grotesque in medieval but let's not 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.959 forget that you guys over there didn't just put the 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.440 herbs and spices inside. The thanks Giving turkey. You used 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:03.480 to put pretty much all of the things that are 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.919 now served as side dishes inside the bird, so they 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:09.240 would cook with it and mix with its own flavor. 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.199 Today's practice of cooking the turkey on its own and 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.320 the stuffings on the side came with the popularization of 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:19.159 stovetop cooking and the appearance of some sanitary concerns in 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.080 the seventies. Keep up the good work, Love the show 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:26.239 m in Columbia. That's that's good. That reminds me of 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:29.440 something in Martin Wallon's book on Squid. I talked to 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.800 him on a recent episode of the show. Uh talks 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:37.320 a little bit about ancient use of culinary use of 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.639 of squid and how you would have it stuffed with, 0:21:39.720 --> 0:21:42.640 say sheep's brains, at least according to one ancient recipe, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.399 but that later on its discussed that the squid body 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.439 is essentially the perfect the perfect thing to stuff anything into, 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.720 Like it's just the perfect body cavity to make and 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.159 it's like nature's ravioli. I guess so Nature's dumpling, or 0:21:57.240 --> 0:22:00.520 you can think that the ocean's sausage casing in it's 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.920 a tube like a like a sheep intestine or whatever. Yeah, 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.840 but I'm I'm all for yes, keep the pigs head 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:10.120 on it. Maybe, yes, it could be a big growth, 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.360