Speaker 1: It is almost here, New Year's New decade, New Year,
Speaker 1: And this is another in our re release of old
Speaker 1: episodes that talk about behavior change in habits, and this
Speaker 1: one goes way back. It's with Michelle Seeger, but it's
Speaker 1: a really good interview. I really like talking with her.
Speaker 1: And she has a phrase that she used a lot
Speaker 1: that I have hung onto ever since, and it's everything counts.
Speaker 1: It means that the little changes we make add up.
Speaker 1: So if we can't get in thirty minutes of exercise,
Speaker 1: can we walk for five minutes three different times? It
Speaker 1: all adds up. And so particularly for those of us
Speaker 1: who are really really busy, we find that we have
Speaker 1: to capture these small windows of time because we're just
Speaker 1: not gonna get two hours of open time to do
Speaker 1: these things. So we've got to capture these small bits
Speaker 1: of time very often, and and that adds up. Everything counts.
Speaker 1: So that's the interview you are about to hear with
Speaker 1: Michelle Seeger. If you want some help with making changes
Speaker 1: to your behavior, your habits and having a better and
Speaker 1: a better decade, consider the one you Feed Transformation program.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to talk more with me about it,
Speaker 1: go to Eric Zimmer dot coach slash Application, and we
Speaker 1: can get to know each other and I'll tell you
Speaker 1: about the program, I'll learn what's going on with you.
Speaker 1: I'll give you my best input and insight during that time.
Speaker 1: And if it makes sense for us to work together,
Speaker 1: we will, and if not, we will be friends after that.
Speaker 1: And uh, that's that's a good thing for me and
Speaker 1: hopefully for you. So Eric Zimmer dot Coach slash Application
Speaker 1: also wanted to tell you that the b J Fogg
Speaker 1: interview coming out tomorrow is not a rerelease. It is
Speaker 1: a brand new episode with b J Fogg, which we
Speaker 1: are pretty excited about, so that'll be come in real soon.
Speaker 1: Enjoy this interview with Michelle Seeger. Something is never going
Speaker 1: to work for everyone, and we always have to keep
Speaker 1: that in mind whenever we're listening to an author or
Speaker 1: science or anything. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
Speaker 1: quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr
Speaker 1: Michelle Seeger Motivate, Asian scientist and author. Michelle is the
Speaker 1: director of the Sport Health and Activity Research and Policy
Speaker 1: Center at the University of Michigan. She's also the chair
Speaker 1: of the u S National Physical Activity Plans Communications Committee.
Speaker 1: Her book is called No Sweat, How the Simple Science
Speaker 1: of Motivation can bring You a Lifetime of Fitness. The
Speaker 1: book was chosen as the two thousand fifteen number one
Speaker 1: Book and Diet and Exercise by USA Best Book Awards.
Speaker 1: When released, it achieved the number one selling exercise and
Speaker 1: fitness book on Amazon. Here's the interview. Hi, Michelle, Welcome
Speaker 1: to the show. Hi, it's great to be here. I'm
Speaker 1: happy to have you on. Your book is called No Sweat,
Speaker 1: How the Simple Science of Motivation can bring You a
Speaker 1: lifetime of Fitness, and I came across it because somebody
Speaker 1: said to me, you ought to check out this book
Speaker 1: because a lot of the things that you talked about
Speaker 1: on the show and in your coaching, this woman wrote
Speaker 1: a book about. And they were right. I mean, there
Speaker 1: were there were countless things in the book that I went, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's a common theme on this show.
Speaker 1: So I'm excited to get further into some of those things. Thanks.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really excited to hear your questions and where
Speaker 1: you're coming from on this too. Excellent. So we'll start though,
Speaker 1: like we always do, with the parable. And in the parable,
Speaker 1: there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks
Speaker 1: about it for a second and looks up at his
Speaker 1: grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And
Speaker 1: the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like
Speaker 1: to start off by asking you what that parable means
Speaker 1: to you in your life and in the work that
Speaker 1: you do. Sure well, it's it's such a great parable.
Speaker 1: And the funny thing is is that before you contacted me,
Speaker 1: I believe I had just reread that in a Pemishodrin
Speaker 1: vo if I'm remembering correctly, So I had to chuckle
Speaker 1: um when I heard that. You know, wow, you know,
Speaker 1: I think in life it's it reflects the challenges, right,
Speaker 1: and and what do we fuel when we're going through challenges?
Speaker 1: And what what lives? But you know, the interesting thing,
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how to respond to that, um
Speaker 1: from the perspective of no sweat, and and I recognize
Speaker 1: it in a way. The whole shift that the book
Speaker 1: is asking people to do relates to that in a
Speaker 1: in a different way. So Um, typically people start to
Speaker 1: exercise or take care of themselves more generally out of
Speaker 1: a medical model. We we feed our beliefs in our
Speaker 1: approaches from the place of clinical abstract. I want to
Speaker 1: avoid a disease, I want to change numbers on a scale.
Speaker 1: And that's what we feed in our approach. And and
Speaker 1: it's the feedback we get or in fact don't get,
Speaker 1: because the outcomes we're looking for are actually fire in
Speaker 1: the future, So we may never get them, but we
Speaker 1: certainly won't get them in the type of time frame
Speaker 1: that our brain needs to to be reinforced. In contrast,
Speaker 1: the approach that I'm asking readers to take in No
Speaker 1: Sweat is is consider a different why or reason for
Speaker 1: starting to be physically active or for starting to get
Speaker 1: more sleep. I mean, my book is specifically about changing
Speaker 1: exercise from mature into a gift, but it really says
Speaker 1: if you reframe your reason for being active and you
Speaker 1: do it differently, so in essence, you're feeding a different why,
Speaker 1: and you're receiving different feedback because when you move, for example,
Speaker 1: to increase your energy or to boost your mood, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get feedback immediately immediately that you're what you're what
Speaker 1: you're giving to physical activity and why you're doing it
Speaker 1: is giving it back to you. So that was kind
Speaker 1: of my big picture takeaway as it relates to my work,
Speaker 1: is that in a way, a shift in what you're
Speaker 1: asking from physical activity in a way is feeding it.
Speaker 1: It's feeding the results you get and how you experience
Speaker 1: it and whether you want to keep doing it or not.
Speaker 1: Right exactly I mean, the book really is, you know,
Speaker 1: there is that fundamental shift there of trying to understand
Speaker 1: why you do something. And I often say on the
Speaker 1: show that I do exercise as basically a mental health routine.
Speaker 1: At this point, it's like I do it because it
Speaker 1: makes me feel better, like immediately that day, that sort
Speaker 1: of thing, and so the motivation for me is, you know,
Speaker 1: is to do it very similar to what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: My why became some thing that was a lot more
Speaker 1: connected to me right now and not as vague as
Speaker 1: something like being healthy in the future or losing weight
Speaker 1: right while. You know, most people don't exercise for the
Speaker 1: reason you just said, and the biggest reason they don't
Speaker 1: is because our society simply hasn't taught us that that's
Speaker 1: an actually wonderful reason to be physically active. So it's
Speaker 1: no one's fault that they're not using physical activity as
Speaker 1: this vehicle for energy and happiness and all these things
Speaker 1: that we really that impact our daily life in significant ways.
Speaker 1: It's just that we haven't learned to do it for
Speaker 1: those reasons. And the secondary reason, which follows from the why,
Speaker 1: which I explain in the book, is that we typically
Speaker 1: choose physical activities in order to achieve the why or
Speaker 1: reason we're exercising for. So if we're exercising too feel
Speaker 1: better to boost our mood, it's logical, although people may
Speaker 1: not know this, that you would pick physical activities that
Speaker 1: are pleasurable to you, that feel good to you, if not,
Speaker 1: are at least tolerable. But when you exercise for better
Speaker 1: health or quote or to lose weight, the physical activities
Speaker 1: you choose tend to be intense and and and maybe
Speaker 1: make your heart rate UM go higher and cost sweat.
Speaker 1: Even though this might not be a way that people
Speaker 1: like exercising and and and the problem is is that
Speaker 1: when people exercise in ways that tend to not feel
Speaker 1: good to them, they don't stick with it for the
Speaker 1: most part. So why we do it and how we
Speaker 1: do it is actually crucial to whether we're going to
Speaker 1: stick with it. And that's why we have to be
Speaker 1: talking about this. Yeah, exactly. And the question I had though,
Speaker 1: because in your book you you say that having more
Speaker 1: than one primary why for doing the behavior is thought
Speaker 1: to dilute our motivation. So, for example, I was saying
Speaker 1: that the primary reason I exercise is because I know
Speaker 1: that it helps my emotional and my mental health. I
Speaker 1: feel better when I do it, and I don't feel
Speaker 1: good when I don't do it. At the same time,
Speaker 1: the fact that there's a vanity aspect to it and
Speaker 1: there's a you know, long term health aspect to it
Speaker 1: appeal to me also. But help me understand this delustion
Speaker 1: of our motivation a little bit more. You know, it's
Speaker 1: so counterintuitive, and I think we actually need a lot
Speaker 1: more research until we have kind of conclusive evidence. But
Speaker 1: the research suggests that if you have you know, what
Speaker 1: I call the right why, which is a reason for exercising,
Speaker 1: that you determine that it's something you deeply want, not
Speaker 1: because you think you should do it or or a
Speaker 1: doctor employers telling you do. One would think that, okay,
Speaker 1: I have that reason. I want to feel better, but
Speaker 1: I'm also you know, going to try to avoid cardiovascular
Speaker 1: disease and and maybe I'll try to live to I'm
Speaker 1: eighty five years old. Research suggests that coupling a an
Speaker 1: intrinsic internal internal motivation with these you know, maybe distant
Speaker 1: or extrinsic motivations potentially SAPs their power. So, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's thought to dilute the power of the positive
Speaker 1: emotion when you bring in these kind of logical, uh,
Speaker 1: cognitive reasons for change. And you know something that I've
Speaker 1: been toying with my mind. I haven't studied this yet,
Speaker 1: but you know, I've been wondering if we could couple,
Speaker 1: for example, the motive for exercising I want to feel
Speaker 1: better with the motive of spending time with other people.
Speaker 1: So another positive intrinsically driven motivation, if that potentially wouldn't
Speaker 1: dilute the goal. But the reality is is that we
Speaker 1: don't know from the research because it hasn't been done.
Speaker 1: So I think we need a lot more on this topic, right,
Speaker 1: because what I realize is that my primary y is
Speaker 1: pretty strong and it's pretty clear. Um, And maybe it's
Speaker 1: not that I'm doing it for those other reasons, but
Speaker 1: it's hard for me not to appreciate that they're happening, right,
Speaker 1: Like I can't put it out of my mind, Like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, no, it's you know what I mean, It's
Speaker 1: like there's there. But I get. I get what you're
Speaker 1: saying about, how you know, the primary y is the
Speaker 1: thing that that drives us. So let's talk a little
Speaker 1: bit more about that. So you're talking about intrinsic versus
Speaker 1: extrinsic goals. Why don't you first tell me kind of
Speaker 1: what those are, and then let's talk about what some
Speaker 1: examples of good WISE are and some examples of wise
Speaker 1: that are maybe not as useful. And for everybody listening
Speaker 1: when we say why, we mean w h y not
Speaker 1: the everybody probably figure that out, but just in case, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but no, that's that's good. And I also want to
Speaker 1: it sounds weird. It reads well, but it sounds we Yes, No,
Speaker 1: you're right, Um, although I have to I have to
Speaker 1: say I've been hearing a lot of people. It's getting
Speaker 1: into the vernacular. People are talking about your why, so
Speaker 1: it's really interesting. Um. I want to start by saying
Speaker 1: why is people's reasons for change. And there's no you know,
Speaker 1: inherently horrible why. It's whether it works for each individual.
Speaker 1: So if when we're when I'm going to say, there
Speaker 1: might be some wise that are optimal and some that
Speaker 1: are not. It's not that they're going to be non
Speaker 1: for everyone, because you know, Baskina Rabbits has thirty one flavors.
Speaker 1: Because we all like different things, and different things resonate
Speaker 1: with us and work for us. So nothing is always
Speaker 1: gonna work, or something is is never going to work
Speaker 1: for everyone, and we always have to keep that in
Speaker 1: mind whenever we're listening to an author or science or anything.
Speaker 1: So own experiences, own experience, and and so. Having said that,
Speaker 1: internal reasons are sometimes what are called intrinsic goal are
Speaker 1: the things that we do because they're going to feed
Speaker 1: us immediately. You know, if if we're talking about exercising,
Speaker 1: being intrinsically motivated would mean that we're exercising for the
Speaker 1: inherent pleasure or satisfaction it gives us. An intrinsic goal
Speaker 1: would be a reason or a goal or why that
Speaker 1: we that relates to how we feel, or doing good
Speaker 1: in the world, things that we deeply, deeply want on
Speaker 1: a personal level. In contrast, you know, being extrinsically motivated
Speaker 1: to exercise would be you're motivated to exercise because you know,
Speaker 1: you think you should look like the magazine cover or
Speaker 1: you wish you looked like you did um thirty years ago.
Speaker 1: Although I have to say that's kind of a complicated one. Um,
Speaker 1: your doctor tells you you need to, you know, do
Speaker 1: this for your blood pressure or to win in a competition. Um,
Speaker 1: although you know to some extent the wise, there are
Speaker 1: to for inces, but we can categorize them as intrinsic
Speaker 1: versusensric or maybe even more importantly, helpful versus unhelpful. The
Speaker 1: thing about exercises, we've basically in society, and this is
Speaker 1: this is across the country, we've been socialized, in other
Speaker 1: word for socialized is educated to be physically active in
Speaker 1: exercise from a really a singular perspective that we've learned
Speaker 1: from science and also marketers who have been trying to
Speaker 1: sell fitness products and services to get us to buy them.
Speaker 1: So when you ask people in general, why do you exercise,
Speaker 1: and this is people who do and don't exercise, the
Speaker 1: majority of people say they do it to improve their
Speaker 1: health or to control their weight in some way. So,
Speaker 1: you know, we did a study and we found seventy
Speaker 1: people gave either weight or health related reasons, and that's
Speaker 1: very common to see in the literature. But what I
Speaker 1: think is fascinating on this topic is that people give
Speaker 1: those reasons because those are the reasons for exercising that
Speaker 1: they've been taught to have. So it's not necessarily that
Speaker 1: those are actually the most motivational reasons. There's certainly logical reasons, right,
Speaker 1: people do want to control their way and they want
Speaker 1: to be healthy. But the research and decision making would
Speaker 1: suggest that if our reasons for exercising are to achieve
Speaker 1: something in the future, whether it's weight loss or avoiding
Speaker 1: a disease, that we will not more. You know, in general,
Speaker 1: people will be less motivated by those reasons. Are wise
Speaker 1: then if they're motivated to improve how they feel immediately,
Speaker 1: so that it's a big difference. And again, people haven't
Speaker 1: been socialized to think about physical activity as a way
Speaker 1: to spend time with friends and family and as a
Speaker 1: way to boost their mood. In fact, in a recent
Speaker 1: study I was part of, we discovered that a lot
Speaker 1: of that I think it was only clinicians actually rack
Speaker 1: amended that people exercised for mood issues, and so that's fascinating.
Speaker 1: Research is very clear that physical activity reduces anxiety and
Speaker 1: depression and boost mood and energy levels. So we're simply
Speaker 1: not being told that this is a great way to
Speaker 1: feel better. And so that's why it's so important for
Speaker 1: you to be talking about it and why you do
Speaker 1: it and how it infects you as well as other people,
Speaker 1: because we have to basically resocialize society about the value
Speaker 1: of physical activity for our sense of selves and for
Speaker 1: our greater life context. So making lasting change in our
Speaker 1: behavior and habits is very challenging. It's why a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't do it. It's not because they're weak,
Speaker 1: it's not because they're undisciplined. It's simply that it's pretty hard,
Speaker 1: particularly in today's world and with all the demands we
Speaker 1: have on us. And so that's why I love doing
Speaker 1: the work that I do in the Transformation Program, because
Speaker 1: I get a chance to work with people and bring
Speaker 1: together a whole suite of tools, knowledge, science practices that
Speaker 1: I've learned from all these interviews, from years in recovery,
Speaker 1: and from coaching well over a hundred people at this
Speaker 1: point and doing a ton of reading. Right, we need
Speaker 1: several different things in order to make changes to our behavior.
Speaker 1: Often say to people on coaching calls that there are
Speaker 1: two main things we have to get down. One is
Speaker 1: very tactical. There are things like starting small. They're things
Speaker 1: like knowing when and where you're gonna do something, setting
Speaker 1: up your environment to make it most likely, making sure
Speaker 1: you're moving through the right stages of change. There's a
Speaker 1: ton of stuff in the tactical area, and we've got
Speaker 1: to get those right, and that's one big part of it.
Speaker 1: And then the second part is the emotional regulation. You
Speaker 1: can get all the structure in place, but if when
Speaker 1: the moment comes when it's time to do or not
Speaker 1: do something, if you're not able to work with your
Speaker 1: emotions skillfully, you end up falling into the same traps again.
Speaker 1: So the program we really work hard on both of
Speaker 1: those components, and we work hard to build a customized
Speaker 1: plan that works for you. This is not a cookie
Speaker 1: cutter program that everybody goes through the same things. There's
Speaker 1: some core principles I teach, but it is not the
Speaker 1: same program. We really work to develop a plan for you,
Speaker 1: and we lay out a plan for the week, and
Speaker 1: we're in contact each day via email to see how
Speaker 1: you're doing. So the level of accountability and support that
Speaker 1: you get is really a lot. And so I'm proud
Speaker 1: of the program and I'm proud of the people in it.
Speaker 1: And if you're trying to make change and you're having
Speaker 1: some trouble, I just encourage you to at least talk
Speaker 1: with me for any minutes and let's see if this
Speaker 1: program is a good fit for you. A lot of
Speaker 1: people say they're nervous to have the conversation, they're afraid
Speaker 1: to do it. Uh, no, need to be right. I'm
Speaker 1: just a normal person and we'll have a good conversation
Speaker 1: about where your blocks are and if I can help,
Speaker 1: you will talk about how I'll do that, and if not,
Speaker 1: I will give you something useful that you can walk
Speaker 1: away with. And so if there's something you've been thinking
Speaker 1: about doing, this is a great time to do it.
Speaker 1: I encourage you. Just go to Eric Zimmer dot coach
Speaker 1: slash application, fill out a short form and we will
Speaker 1: find a time to talk soon. Again. That's Eric Zimmer
Speaker 1: dot coach slash application. Thanks. Part of what we're saying
Speaker 1: is that when we think we should do something, it
Speaker 1: becomes a chore, and we resist chores to some degree. However,
Speaker 1: on the other hand, when we want to do something,
Speaker 1: then it's not a chore. And so if the goal
Speaker 1: for exercise is you know, ideally the best would be
Speaker 1: that you really enjoy doing it, but if you're a
Speaker 1: step away from that, then the next best would be
Speaker 1: the benefits that you feel from it are very very immediate. Yes,
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I've asked my
Speaker 1: clients to do is to think back, what did you
Speaker 1: enjoy doing when you were a kid, when a kid,
Speaker 1: When you're a kid, moving was not a chore. It
Speaker 1: was this way of being in playing right, And once
Speaker 1: people ask themselves that question, it opens up. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I used to love writing my book. I used to
Speaker 1: love taking walks and parks. You know that changes everything. Right,
Speaker 1: you say in the book, and I'll quote you here,
Speaker 1: you say, there's only one basic instruction. Take any and
Speaker 1: every opportunity to move in any way possible, at whatever
Speaker 1: speed you like, for any amount of time. Do what
Speaker 1: makes you feel good, Stop doing what makes you feel bad. Yes,
Speaker 1: everything counts. Everything counts is a radical, simple, but timely
Speaker 1: idea because, uh, we know that the typical recommendations to exercise,
Speaker 1: you know, the standard recommendations to exercise for a certain
Speaker 1: amount of time and a certain intensity have not successfully
Speaker 1: gotten most people to fall in love with movement or
Speaker 1: to do it consistently. That's kind of the first evidence
Speaker 1: that that's not going to really help most people sustain
Speaker 1: a physically active life. The second level is that research
Speaker 1: in a completely different area is showing that sitting a
Speaker 1: lot is actually really bad for our health. So we
Speaker 1: now have permission, and there's research to show that, you know,
Speaker 1: anything is better than nothing, and that's kind of the
Speaker 1: bottom line. Any movement is better than no movement, and
Speaker 1: and if that's true, then we can stand up joyfully
Speaker 1: take a few steps because that's all the time we have,
Speaker 1: and pat ourselves in the back and say, I just
Speaker 1: chose to move. I noticed a bursting energy which research
Speaker 1: was suggests would actually happen on you know, with very
Speaker 1: small amounts of movement, And I'm taking better care of myself.
Speaker 1: And I ask people to consider the idea. We didn't
Speaker 1: go to school to learn how to sustain a physically
Speaker 1: active life, so now is the time to start and
Speaker 1: guess what we have the pleasure of being in kindergarten,
Speaker 1: which is finger painting. We want to start small and
Speaker 1: experiment with new activities and durations and places because we
Speaker 1: have our whole lives to be physically active, so let's
Speaker 1: let's invest in learning how to integrate it into our
Speaker 1: life in ways that we can sustain. Yeah, you're saying
Speaker 1: that anything is better than nothing. The phrase that I
Speaker 1: use a lot with coaching clients and on the show
Speaker 1: is that a little bit of something is better than
Speaker 1: a lot of nothing, um, which is that basic idea, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's so easy for us to go, well,
Speaker 1: if I can't get to the gym to do thirty
Speaker 1: five minutes of running, I don't do anything. And I'm
Speaker 1: always like anything is better in that case, go walk
Speaker 1: for five minutes. You can't make it to the whole
Speaker 1: class that you want to go to, go for half
Speaker 1: of it, any little bit. And I really like what
Speaker 1: you're saying is that everything counts kind of across the day.
Speaker 1: And this is a practical illustration because I work a
Speaker 1: lot with people on how do you how do you
Speaker 1: make these changes and sustain them? And so exercise for
Speaker 1: me is one where I travel a lot, and so
Speaker 1: you know, traveling a lot rains chaos on you know,
Speaker 1: an exercise schedule. So one of the things that I
Speaker 1: figured out is that one of the places that I
Speaker 1: go very often it's I do some e commerce consulting
Speaker 1: and it's a very large distribution center. And what I
Speaker 1: found is if I just structure my day in a
Speaker 1: certain way, I can get ten to twelve thousand steps
Speaker 1: in a day by adding them up all day and
Speaker 1: so for me, that's a way of getting my exercise
Speaker 1: in even if time doesn't seem to permit. And that's
Speaker 1: the sort of flexibility I think that you're talking about
Speaker 1: that allows us to integrate into our lives, because that's
Speaker 1: really the key is how do we do the one month,
Speaker 1: two months, one year, three years? How do we keep
Speaker 1: doing these things? Yes? And you you know, you're really
Speaker 1: your point is so important because what I found over
Speaker 1: the years is that the thing that keeps people starting
Speaker 1: and stopping instead of sustaining is that they have gold standards.
Speaker 1: It's about a bull's eye, and on any given day,
Speaker 1: when you can't meet the bull's eye, you feel like
Speaker 1: a failure and eventually you stop. But you know, that model,
Speaker 1: that bulls eye model of physical activity is based on
Speaker 1: a medical dose. And the reality is is that human
Speaker 1: beings are lives are so complicated. You know, curveballs come
Speaker 1: multiple times on most days, and so unless we have
Speaker 1: the luxury or the type of mindset that thrives with rigidity,
Speaker 1: you know, where you do everything at the same point.
Speaker 1: I don't mean rigidity in any kind of negative way.
Speaker 1: It's just you do you do what you planned every
Speaker 1: time and there's no deviation, which a lot of people
Speaker 1: literally their lives don't permit that to happen. You have
Speaker 1: to be flexible in life. And so once we we
Speaker 1: recognize that flexibility is actually a strategy for success instead
Speaker 1: of a reaction to failure. Again, it changes our mindset
Speaker 1: about what's possible. It gives us permission to get creative
Speaker 1: with those challenges. Those are barriers that are falling down
Speaker 1: in front of you and stopping you in your tracks.
Speaker 1: Their opportunities to dance and and be creative with solutions.
Speaker 1: And you know, uh, research suggestion this is I usually
Speaker 1: talk about this as with regarding our reasons for doing something,
Speaker 1: but research shows that the frame we use on any
Speaker 1: you know, on a topic determines how we feel about it.
Speaker 1: So if we can turn it into a game things
Speaker 1: not going our way, then we're gonna are are We're
Speaker 1: gonna broaden our thinking ah and and be able to
Speaker 1: be more creative. And there again there's science and theories
Speaker 1: to support that. Yeah, and and it's an absolute given,
Speaker 1: Like you said that for most of our lives, we're
Speaker 1: gonna make a plan, and that plan is going to
Speaker 1: hold up for about two hours and then you know,
Speaker 1: we need to be able to adjust, and it's that
Speaker 1: For me, it's a combination of flexibility and a little
Speaker 1: bit of rigidity. The rigidity is like I want to
Speaker 1: get this in somehow, like it's important, I want to
Speaker 1: do it. The flexibility is when where how you know
Speaker 1: you say in the book keep the end in mind,
Speaker 1: and um, I know you're talking a little bit more
Speaker 1: long term. But for me, you know, it's that just
Speaker 1: being flexible. And that's one of the big things that
Speaker 1: I work and I think you do to work with
Speaker 1: so many people on is developing and learning that flexibility
Speaker 1: because none of us have been taught it, you know,
Speaker 1: and so many of us have the you know, I
Speaker 1: call it the effort syndrome right where it's like I
Speaker 1: try and it doesn't go perfectly, and so I give
Speaker 1: up and then and you refer to this as the
Speaker 1: vicious of failure. Yes, so, uh, this cycle, you know,
Speaker 1: I talked about in the in the book and it's
Speaker 1: it's actually in a free chapter on my website if
Speaker 1: people are interested. Um, it's called the vicious cycle of
Speaker 1: failure and it starts with the wrong why. Research shows
Speaker 1: that are reasons for initiating any behavior have incredible downstream
Speaker 1: results on the quality of motivation we have and whether
Speaker 1: we stick with the behavior or not. And so that's
Speaker 1: what the vicious cycle of failure is. And so logically,
Speaker 1: if you want to get into the successful cycle of motivation,
Speaker 1: what where do you start? You start with your why
Speaker 1: you change it away from clinical, abstract reasons that might
Speaker 1: make you feel bad about yourself, even if that's how
Speaker 1: you've been taught to think about it. Two reasons for
Speaker 1: change that are about you, What do you care about,
Speaker 1: what do you want to feel in your day? And
Speaker 1: once you reframe your reasons, it changes the downstream effects
Speaker 1: and motivation. Instead of low quality, unstable motivation, you get
Speaker 1: high quality, stable motivation. And that's you know, that's the
Speaker 1: ingredient for sustainability as well. Going back to what you
Speaker 1: just said about flexibility as well as being able to
Speaker 1: improvise in life, like we have to improvise with everything.
Speaker 1: Our kids get sick, a work deadline all of a
Speaker 1: sudden comes up. We have to improvise in all areas
Speaker 1: of our life pretty much. So even though we do
Speaker 1: have a goal we do want to be physically active,
Speaker 1: if we're not able to improvise with our goals in
Speaker 1: any area, we won't be able to stick with them.
Speaker 1: What you're saying, though, is really really important because I
Speaker 1: think that all these things that you're talking about, I know,
Speaker 1: work with things besides fitness. These principles are very sound,
Speaker 1: kind of across the board. You're very focused on and
Speaker 1: your researches in fitness, but these sort of things really
Speaker 1: they apply to be of your change in general. I'm
Speaker 1: sure when people are hearing us talk about this, this,
Speaker 1: these ideas they're common sense, they're shaking their heads. The
Speaker 1: nice thing is that even though they are common sense,
Speaker 1: there's they're backed by fundamental science, and that gives these
Speaker 1: ideas even more credibility. We talked about the vicious cycle
Speaker 1: of failure, which is we start, we stop, we feel
Speaker 1: bad about it. We start, we stopped, we feel bad
Speaker 1: about it on and off for you know, years, and
Speaker 1: that whole process sort of damages our our opinion of
Speaker 1: ourselves as able to even do it. I think it
Speaker 1: the more we do that, the you know, the harder
Speaker 1: it becomes, because we don't even and take ourselves seriously
Speaker 1: sometimes that you know, like here we go again. Um,
Speaker 1: but let's talk about the sustainable cycle. Of self care.
Speaker 1: What is that? Yes, So that gets us into the
Speaker 1: third cycle, which is the cycle of sustainability. And this
Speaker 1: cycle takes us past physical activity to really our own
Speaker 1: self care and to the recognition and consideration of do
Speaker 1: we feel even comfortable prioritizing our own self care, our
Speaker 1: our own our own salves. And you know what I discovered.
Speaker 1: The reason I got into this work was because we
Speaker 1: were doing um research with cancer survivors and you know,
Speaker 1: people ended the study, they complied, we saw the effects
Speaker 1: we were, we hypothesized, but when the study was over
Speaker 1: three months later, we were shocked to discover that despite
Speaker 1: talking about how great exercise was for their health, participants
Speaker 1: had stopped exercising because they had more important things to
Speaker 1: do than their own self care. And think about this.
Speaker 1: They committed to exercise for our study, but these cancer
Speaker 1: survivors when our study ended, they did not feel comfortable
Speaker 1: committing to their own self care. And that people who
Speaker 1: had faced a life threatening illness didn't feel comfortable prioritizing
Speaker 1: their own self care suggested that in society we have
Speaker 1: a real problem. So this third cycle is about this issue,
Speaker 1: it says my work. So my work over the last
Speaker 1: two decades suggests that we can create a positive feeling
Speaker 1: about exercise or another self care behavior. We can make
Speaker 1: it feel like it's a gift. And actually converting exercise
Speaker 1: from mature into a gift is incredibly easy to do
Speaker 1: if you followed the steps in the book. The challenging
Speaker 1: part is then to go on to say and I
Speaker 1: am going to prioritize time for that gift. So, for
Speaker 1: another example is going to the movies. I, Michelle Seeger
Speaker 1: love going to the movies, but it's not a priority
Speaker 1: for me, so I almost never go. So we want
Speaker 1: something to be a gift, something we want to do,
Speaker 1: but whether we make it a priority and self management
Speaker 1: self management in our lives is really a completely different
Speaker 1: and actually more difficult questions. So the third cycle, the
Speaker 1: sustainable cycle of self care, asks people to step way
Speaker 1: back away from physical activity and to think about who
Speaker 1: they are and the roles they care about. So the
Speaker 1: why goes from a reason to who I am as
Speaker 1: a parent, partner, professional, volunteer, seeker. And when my self
Speaker 1: care behavior, whatever it is, whether it's getting more sleep
Speaker 1: or changing my di terry habits, or exercising, when my
Speaker 1: self care behavior aims to fuel who I am. It
Speaker 1: turns from simply being something i'd like to do, a gift,
Speaker 1: something that helps me feel good, to something that I
Speaker 1: actually need to perform in these roles that I care
Speaker 1: most about, So it becomes essential fuel. And when a
Speaker 1: behavior becomes essential fuel, we stick with it because we
Speaker 1: know that when we don't fuel ourselves, we actually perform
Speaker 1: worse and everything we care about and everyone we love
Speaker 1: um and so it turns the behavior into something profound
Speaker 1: and deeply meaningful. Then we can legitimately prioritize the behavior
Speaker 1: once we recognize those connections. So, in essence, what we're
Speaker 1: talking about here is taking a behavior like let's just
Speaker 1: take exercise, and recognizing that it contributes to our mental health,
Speaker 1: and then recognizing the important role that our mental health
Speaker 1: plays in who we are, who we want to be
Speaker 1: as a parent, what kind of parent we want to be,
Speaker 1: what kind of husband we want to be, how effective
Speaker 1: we want to be at work. It's it's tying that
Speaker 1: to that next level of meaning, yes, almost the most
Speaker 1: profound level of meaning, how do we contribute to others
Speaker 1: and the things we want to achieve? But I would
Speaker 1: dare say it goes beyond our success in our roles
Speaker 1: to actually how much we enjoy doing them. I mean,
Speaker 1: think about it, if you are low energy, or you're
Speaker 1: in a bad mood, when you're talking to a child
Speaker 1: who might be frustrating or not, or you're just cooking dinner,
Speaker 1: or you're at work. When we do things with energy
Speaker 1: and in a better mood, we enjoy things more. So
Speaker 1: it actually doesn't just lend itself to contributing more to
Speaker 1: the world into being more successful, but actually to being
Speaker 1: happier because we're enjoying everything we do that much more, right, right, Absolutely.
Speaker 1: I think for people that have a hard time saying
Speaker 1: I'm important, that recognition that as an interim step that
Speaker 1: doing this makes me better with my kids is a
Speaker 1: really powerful one because then it's you can step away
Speaker 1: at least I think from the being selfish and recognizing like, no,
Speaker 1: this is really important, it's it's actually you know, it's
Speaker 1: a gift and help to them also absolutely, and you know,
Speaker 1: if you listen to an interview by with Adam Grant
Speaker 1: and Christa Tippett on on being she asks him about
Speaker 1: this issue about being a giver, and he discusses the
Speaker 1: nuances actually that the most successful givers are actually people
Speaker 1: who make sure to get their own needs taken care
Speaker 1: of first. So it's wonderful to be a giver, But
Speaker 1: if we don't fuel ourselves, then we really do have
Speaker 1: that much less to give and to contribute. So it's
Speaker 1: actually not counterintuitive and hopefully will help people who are
Speaker 1: challenged in this area know that it's not just a
Speaker 1: gift you're giving to yourself, but you actually are giving
Speaker 1: it to everyone else as well. So we're running near
Speaker 1: to the end of time. But I've got a couple
Speaker 1: of quick things that I would like to touch on. UM.
Speaker 1: Integrate one new behavior at a time. UM. This is
Speaker 1: sort of an equivalent to us saying, you know, we
Speaker 1: say start small and connect the dots, but let's let's
Speaker 1: talk about you know, why is integrating one new behavior
Speaker 1: UM a really useful way to approach these things? Well,
Speaker 1: if if we begin with the end in mind, and
Speaker 1: that's one of the six big ideas in the in
Speaker 1: the book towards the end of the book, if we
Speaker 1: begin with end in mind, which is sustainability or forever
Speaker 1: consistency is another way of thinking about it, then we
Speaker 1: have to actually learn the ins and outs of sticking
Speaker 1: with and being consistent with that behavior through the ebbs
Speaker 1: and flows of life and seasons of life, sickness, semesters,
Speaker 1: in school, work deadlines, et cetera. We actually it takes
Speaker 1: our cognitive energy and time um to to do it,
Speaker 1: to see what gets in the way, to paying off
Speaker 1: attention to what gets in our way, so the next
Speaker 1: time we are so we can make a mental note
Speaker 1: and say, oh, gee, this is what happened. Next time
Speaker 1: I get to this point, I'm going to do B
Speaker 1: instead of a Human beings have a limited cognitive capacity.
Speaker 1: So how on earth can we learn to change to
Speaker 1: more than one complicated behavior at a time when we
Speaker 1: are working and taking care of our families and potentially
Speaker 1: aging parents and trying to do A B and C.
Speaker 1: So we simply don't most of us. There are some
Speaker 1: talented people who probably you know, have a lot of
Speaker 1: more cognitive resources than most of us. We simply don't
Speaker 1: have the energy and attention to dedicate to learning how
Speaker 1: to sustain more than one complicated behavior at a time. Right,
Speaker 1: And I think it's a lot easier when you're trying
Speaker 1: to do a lot of things to start falling apart
Speaker 1: in a couple of them and give up on the
Speaker 1: whole endeavor. So the last thing I want to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I had it was a really interesting concept in
Speaker 1: the book that I looked at, and I thought it
Speaker 1: was interesting the way yours and your husband's were different.
Speaker 1: But let's talk about what the self are hierarchy is,
Speaker 1: because I think that was an idea I had never
Speaker 1: seen before and I thought was really interesting. Sure, the
Speaker 1: self care hierarchy, you know, came out of my work
Speaker 1: with people. And I'll give you an example. A woman
Speaker 1: contacted me. This was many years ago, and she said
Speaker 1: to me, Michelle, I would like to start exercising. And
Speaker 1: so part of my client intake is to ask some
Speaker 1: questions that helped me assess what's going on with people.
Speaker 1: And after the assessment, I said to this woman, I said, wow,
Speaker 1: you're getting four and a half hours of sleep every night.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not really sure physical activity is the
Speaker 1: is the behavior, the foundational self care behavior that's most
Speaker 1: appropriate to work on, because you told me you're sleep
Speaker 1: deprived and you feel terrible and you overeat because of it.
Speaker 1: So through those you know, through that assessment, we figured
Speaker 1: out that sleep was truly on the foundation of her
Speaker 1: self care pyramid. She wanted to be physically active, but
Speaker 1: if she didn't start getting more sleep, that was going
Speaker 1: to undermine her physical activity goal too. So the self
Speaker 1: care hierarchy is the idea that we all have some
Speaker 1: fundamental self care behavior that if we don't get it,
Speaker 1: we are not going to have a good day, And
Speaker 1: many people may not be aware about what that is.
Speaker 1: And I think for many people it is sleep and
Speaker 1: they just don't know it UM. But for other people,
Speaker 1: like my husband, he's very clear that it's not sleep,
Speaker 1: that it's physical activity because he knows he feels terrible
Speaker 1: if he doesn't exercise, but he doesn't feel nearly as
Speaker 1: bad even if he doesn't get, you know, very much sleep.
Speaker 1: So it's incumbent upon people and potentially the coaches they
Speaker 1: work with, like you, to identify what is that behavior
Speaker 1: that I'm not getting that if I got it it
Speaker 1: would truly radicalize my day for the better exactly. I
Speaker 1: think that's such a great, great thing to learn and
Speaker 1: understand about ourselves. So, Michelle, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: taking the time to come on. We will have links
Speaker 1: to your website, links to your book UM as well
Speaker 1: as a download of a couple of quotes from your
Speaker 1: book that I really loved. At one you feed dot
Speaker 1: net slash Michelle and that way people can find you
Speaker 1: and get to your website. I highly recommend the whole book.
Speaker 1: I I thought it was I thought it was wonderful. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. It was just a pleasure to
Speaker 1: speak with you today. Okay, take care you too. Okay.
Speaker 1: Bite You can learn more about Michelle Seeger and this
Speaker 1: podcast at one you Feed, dot net slash Michelle