1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, Robert here. Before we get into it, I 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: want to note my internet was terrible during this call. 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: We tried to have the guest record locally, but there 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: was kind of a technical glitch there, and Zoom glitched 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: a little on the audio. In order to make it listenable. 6 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: There are going to be like three or four points 7 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: here where I pop in and just say what he 8 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: was trying to say or what he said, and the 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: Internet then garbled up so that you can understand what's 10 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: actually being said in the conversation. So when my voice 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: pops in and I read a line, it's me reading 12 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: something that he said that got kind of distorted. I 13 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: do apologize. Ah, welcome to it could happen here. A 14 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: podcast about things falling apart and occasionally about the quest 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: to build a better world. Today, we've got an episode 16 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: that is in the latter category about the struggle to 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: make the United Kingdom less I don't know, in the 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: thrall of a monarchy and an aristocratic class, and to 19 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: build a more equitable society. And our guest today is 20 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: somebody who is attempting to further that cause, and did 21 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: so last year by attempting to huck several eggs at 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: the current King of England, Charles the I forget the number. Patrick, Well, 23 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: how are you doing today? 24 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 2: Hi? 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm good. Thanks. Yeah, it was five eggs. Five 26 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 3: eggs and he's the third king. 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 4: The third king, third king. 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Far more than three unfortunately. Yeah, you guys have had 29 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: a few. Was one of the ones you'all killed? 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 4: To Charles? 31 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was the last one. 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 4: That was the last one. Well, yeah, I would say trouble. Yeah. 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: So let's start by talking about this is in a 34 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: twenty about a year ago at a he was doing 35 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: a they called it a walkabout, which I guess is 36 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: when the king shows up in a city in the video. 37 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 4: I watched the video of this and like, there's. 38 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: A bunch of people dressed in all sorts of fun costumes, 39 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: and some ladies got a massive sword. 40 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 4: Like a a sword of. 41 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: The size that I know for a fact that man 42 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: cannot lift above his head. 43 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny. He comes out of his little car 44 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 3: and I know, all the little trumpets go and everyone starts, 45 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 3: you know, waving their flags on queue and going like, look, 46 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: there he is. There is some pretty unhinged to be honest, 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 3: it's it's it's quite embarrassing. 48 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's like the American chauvinist in me that 49 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: like wants to wants to laugh more about the monarchy. 50 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: But I'm just finished reading an article about Dianne Feinstein 51 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: where the journalist interviewing her was like, so you've missed 52 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of votes over the last three months, and 53 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: she's like, no. 54 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 4: I haven't. I've been working the whole time. 55 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: So I guess we're all kind of enthrall to the 56 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 1: corpses of of our past. 57 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: It's hierarchy. Hierarchy everywhere is the problem. 58 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: So you decide to show up when you kind of 59 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: find out that the king is going to be showing 60 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: up here, and what kind of leads you to decide, 61 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna throw some eggs in my pocket 62 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: and take my shot. 63 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 3: So I actually only found out that he was coming 64 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: to York about three days with a megaphone and you know, 65 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: shout some cause obviously the queen had died about a 66 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 3: month or so before, and during the funeral processions there 67 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 3: was you know, several people were arrested for someone shouted 68 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: at you know, Prince Andrew, you know, in Scotland's they 69 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: were like, oh, you're a sick old man, and they did, 70 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: and that was probably my my inspiration. But then on 71 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: the morning when he came to York, my megaphone was 72 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: just like busted. So I was just like, oh, okay, 73 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: I'm gonna gonna go get some eggs then. 74 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: And white eggs. 75 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: What kind of led to that decision? 76 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 3: Man? Everyone asked that. Yeah, I guess like I was 77 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: into the assumption that we all just knew that you 78 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: throw eggs at people you don't like maybe it's a 79 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 3: British thing. 80 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: But I think it may just be that in the 81 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: US because of the gun stuff, people are like a 82 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: lot more hesitant to huck stuff just for fun, right, 83 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: if you're throwing stuff and somebody it's serious. 84 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: Although someone someone threw a beer at Ted Cruz. 85 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, they sure did. That was good. That was good. 86 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think you know, I actually had a lot 87 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: of time to think about before my trial about white 88 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 3: eggs and stuff, and I think they're just funny, you know, 89 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 3: like there's a lot of egg puns that came out 90 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 3: of it that that, you know, not to get too 91 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 3: philosophical about it, but they're kind of you know, they're 92 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: they're really harmless, you know, but inherently humiliating as well. 93 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to argue attempted murder from an egg. 94 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: But at the same time, yeah. 95 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: Well exactly. And I think there's there's something to be 96 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: said for contrasting the violence of the state, yeah, with 97 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 3: what's obviously like very low level violence. And yeah, I'm 98 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: the one standing trial for it. 99 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it is. 100 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: It is like the language that got used by the 101 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,160 Speaker 1: state kind of in the proceedings against you was was amusing. 102 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: Like I know that it was a pain in the 103 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: ash you had to go through, but like the kind 104 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: of the framing that they they put with it to 105 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: make it seem like this was this was such a 106 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: like serious offense against public order was was was quite funny. 107 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: And I think it's beyond me to know what was 108 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: going on in the now king's head at the time, 109 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: but I you got quite close. You can see right 110 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,239 Speaker 1: after it hit there's there's goop on the ground directly 111 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: in front of his foot, and his shoulders slump a 112 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: little and he looks down, and I wonder if it 113 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: made him feel bad. I hope it did. You know, 114 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: I can't get inside the man's head. Maybe he's not 115 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: capable of that, but I wonder. 116 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 3: So, yeah, I mean through five and I will say 117 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 3: it for the record that one of them did bounce 118 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 3: off his arm, but he does have a force field, 119 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: so it's not my fault that it didn't didn't get 120 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: the full impact. But yeah, I honestly think he didn't 121 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 3: have a clue what's going on. He's pretty pretty sen 122 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: how to be honest. Yeah, but you know, monarchists were like, 123 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: so like, wow, look at how stoic he is. He 124 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 3: just doesn't even care. He just shrugged it off. He's 125 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 3: such a badass, and it's like he's just been guided 126 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: through this series of bizarre public opinions where he's got 127 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: to pretend that he you know, smiles and waves at 128 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 3: normal people and he doesn't think that we're all clubs. 129 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, and it was the crowd reaction around 130 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 1: you was pretty intense from what I understand. I mean, 131 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: like people came after you when they realized what had happened. 132 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think in some ways that spoke more more 133 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: itself than like anything that I could have done. You know, 134 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: the reaction to the video, you know, people immediately just 135 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 3: start like pulling my hair, out in chunks and just 136 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 3: like screaming, like you know, like just killing him, like 137 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 3: stick his head on a spike, kick him to death, 138 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 3: and you know, and it really I think maybe that 139 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: kind of rhetoric is perhaps more like, you know that 140 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: the overt violence is more prevalent in American politics. But yeah, 141 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 3: you know, it exposed that you know, these people are 142 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: essentially fascists, you know, and that they yeah, they're very, 143 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 3: very violent people. 144 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: And I think this is something people have are starting 145 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: to recognize a little bit more about kind of politics 146 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: in the UK. I mean, we're looking right now. The 147 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: Public Order Act of twenty twenty three is kind of 148 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: the most recent law that's gone through Parliament that effectively 149 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: like expands the ability of the police to crack down 150 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: on protests. Some people will argue, and I think this seems, 151 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: based on what I've read, pretty credible that it basically 152 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: makes it possible for the police to arrest anyone for 153 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 1: almost any kind of activism. And that kind of was 154 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: exhibited during the coronation when a group of kind of 155 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: of anti monarchist protesters who are more on the liberal 156 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: side of things, and you're kind of approaching this as 157 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: an anarchist, but a fairly large group of protesters with 158 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: signs that were saying stuff like not my king, attempted 159 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: to rally doing so. I believe their goal, from what 160 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: I can tell, was to comply with the law as 161 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: they understood it, and that did not protect them from 162 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,319 Speaker 1: the police. 163 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: No. So you know, the context is in the wake 164 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 3: of the police there was a police officer, you know, 165 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 3: last year who murdered a woman, Sarah Everard. Yeah, and 166 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 3: in the wake of that, they passed the Police, Courts, 167 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 3: Sentencing and Crime Bill. And that that bill was really like, 168 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 3: you know, the most over crackdown on protest. It banned 169 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 3: it allowed the police to arrest, the discretion of an officer, 170 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 3: any protest that was deemed potentially annoying, like that's the 171 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 3: specific language, is any any action that could be loud 172 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 3: or annoying. So, you know, there was a there was 173 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 3: a lot of protests against that at the time. That 174 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: obviously came to nothing, and they passed the bill anyway, 175 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 3: and then and then so the Public Order Bill just 176 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 3: goes that step further by allowing them to preemptively arrest 177 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 3: anyone who might be about to do something that's loud 178 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: or annoying and including this new thing called a serious 179 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 3: Disruption Prevention Order, which is something that they can apply 180 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 3: to someone who's considered an aggravated activist. 181 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: He's saying, which is someone who has been arrested more 182 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: than twice for protest related offenses. 183 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: Essentially, it bans, you know, use of the internet to 184 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 3: communicate about your ideas, basically stopped from attending protests in 185 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: the first a rest at the train station. And yeah, 186 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: we saw that in play with the Republic, with this 187 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 3: organization that had been extensively liaising with the police, and 188 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 3: you know, it just seemed quite like Pikachu face when 189 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: suddenly they were all just rounded up and yeah, but 190 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 3: for literally, you know, no pretext. It was they had 191 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 3: they had like twelve thousand pounds worth of signs in 192 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 3: a van and they were they were all wrapped up 193 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 3: in yeah, just like rope rope, and the pretext for 194 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: the arrest was that the rope was a lock on 195 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: device that could be used to you know, I don't know, 196 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: like jump in front of the procession and tie yourself 197 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 3: with rope. 198 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 4: To the road. 199 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 3: I really don't know, Like. 200 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, from what I could tell just from the coverage, 201 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: I've read. If their protest had gone the way they 202 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: planned it, it would have been like a show, a 203 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: visible show that there were people who didn't like the monarchy, 204 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: but it would not have caused it. Like they would 205 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: not have this. These people were not planning to like 206 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: burn down any public buildings or you know, smash car 207 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: windows or stop a road. Not that I'm specifically condemning 208 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: that behavior, but I'm just stating this was not the 209 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: state cracking down on people because they were afraid of 210 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: a riot. This was the state cracking down on people 211 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: because they didn't want the display of any kind of 212 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: descent to exist. 213 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, that's where we're at in this country. 214 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: And to be honest, the arrest of those organizers was 215 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 3: the best thing that could have happened for the movement, 216 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: because you know, what it really did was just shine 217 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: a light that it was impossible to ignore and in 218 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: some ways kind of over shadowed the coronation. Really was 219 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 3: far more than any speech that Graham Smith you know, 220 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 3: was planning to give, you know, just so overtly that 221 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: that there is no acceptable form of descent. Now, the 222 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 3: very concept is so distasteful to yeah, our aristocracy that 223 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: it's banned. 224 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate your ability to kind of see 225 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: the upside, the tactical upside in that, because I think 226 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: it is true. I doubt I would have heard about 227 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: that protest if it had gone as the organizers planned, right, 228 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: because it would have just been Yeah, there's some people 229 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: who don't like the monarchy in the UK. That doesn't 230 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: surprise me at all, but seeing it was like everywhere 231 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: all over my social media. I got sent it by 232 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: multiple friends, by a family member because the state decided 233 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: to go after these people, And I do think I 234 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: think it's also from just a standpoint when you're talking 235 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: about a struggle with as long odds as kind of 236 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 1: struggling against the monarchy in the United Kingdom, which is 237 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: you are talking about like the most entrenched power structure 238 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: outside of the Vatican, right Basically, when you're talking about that, 239 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: it is so important to be able to look at 240 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: moments like this and see the upside in them rather 241 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: than just rather than just kind of feel the boot 242 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: all the time. Otherwise you're you're not going to have 243 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: the endurance to keep fighting, you know. 244 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 3: For me with specifically with the eggs, I was I've 245 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: been conscious the whole time that the backlash and the 246 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: you know, disproportionate state reaction would speak more than my 247 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: own actions. So so, for example, one of the reasons 248 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 3: why I think, you know, it went pretty viral when 249 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 3: I when I threw the eggs in the first place, 250 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 3: I was a bit surprised by by how it went 251 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 3: kind of quite internationally. But but but you know, so 252 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: the fact, so my bail conditions were between between my 253 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,599 Speaker 3: arrest and my trial were that I wasn't allowed to 254 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 3: carry eggs in public. Yeah, I know. And so that 255 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 3: is in itself like so absurd that it's like, right. 256 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 1: I gotta notice there like a provision for if you're 257 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: going home from the store or are you just are. 258 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,080 Speaker 3: You just so? So the copper who was literally just 259 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: like making this up at the station says like, okay, 260 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 3: so your bail condition is you're not allowed within five 261 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 3: hundred meters of the king, you're not allowed to carry 262 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 3: eggs in public. And then he goes like, oh, actually, 263 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: like what was if he wants to buy some eggs 264 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: And they're like okay, So they changed it so it's 265 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 3: like you're allowed to carry eggs as long as you're 266 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: going home from the shops and you've got the receipt. 267 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 3: And I think that was more viral than me actually 268 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: doing it, you know what I mean, Like people were like, 269 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 3: you know, that's that's that's Britain for you. Have you 270 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 3: got a license for those eggs? 271 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: You know, I'm imagining you like sliding down an alleyway 272 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: with like a like a like a nineteen forty style 273 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: shoulder holster, but with just like eggs under each. 274 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 3: Yir yeah and so and so you know when I so, 275 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 3: I had my trial, you know, which was for yeah, 276 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: threatening behavior that made someone feel imminent violence. In the 277 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 3: wake of that, like I was convicted, I narrowly avoided 278 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 3: six months in prison, which is the sentence that I thought, yeah, yeah, 279 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 3: and so, so you know, in my trial, you know, 280 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 3: I had the option to either downplay what I did 281 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: as being like, oh, it's not really violence, it's just 282 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 3: an egg. But then of course, you know, legally it 283 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: was you know, that could just cancel as a soul. 284 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 3: But then I chose instead to say, Okay, yeah, it 285 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: was violence, but it was legitimate violence because it was 286 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 3: necessary to resist the far greater violence of the British state, 287 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 3: you know, citing the historic impact of colonialism. 288 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: He's saying current foreign policy, like the king personally negotiating 289 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: weapons deals with Saudi Arabia. 290 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: And then also you know climate breakdown and the way 291 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: in which by continuing to invest in fossil fuels global 292 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: South like intentionally and so therefore, you know, I was 293 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 3: basically defending the right of you know, acting in defense 294 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 3: of others with violence. I'm glad I did it, and 295 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 3: I'd have done much worse. So in the end, actually 296 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 3: I got one hundred hour. I got one hundred hours 297 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 3: of community service, which was extreme, you know, getting away 298 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: with it essentially. 299 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: So, yeah, did you get us? I wondered, was it 300 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: just a situation? Did you just get lucky with a 301 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: judge or like, because that's that's surprising. I'm surprised that 302 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: like that that worked as well as it did in 303 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: a positive way. 304 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, yeah, me too. Yeah. I mean I 305 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 3: had a big bag with me with all my light 306 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: undies in because I thought I was going down, you know, 307 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 3: And I think there was partly, yes, getting lucky with 308 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 3: the judge. Partly I think they were in a really 309 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: difficult position and this is what I wanted to put 310 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 3: them in essentially, which is that following all of that 311 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 3: the money, you know, in the lead up to the coronation, 312 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 3: there was a lot of negative press around around the 313 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 3: king and the monarchy, and they had a choice between 314 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 3: either sending me to prison and looking extremely authoritarian and 315 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: blowing out proportion, or letting him get away with it. 316 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 3: And you know, I think they chose to minimize the 317 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 3: negative press. You know, I mean, obviously, supposedly there's an 318 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 3: independent judiciary and there would have been no conversations with 319 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 3: the palace and the police about the charging procedures. But 320 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: that's a low rubbish but you know, yeah, and so 321 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 3: but I think I wanted to put them in that 322 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 3: difficult position because I knew that, like I said, their 323 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 3: backlash would look worse than what I did. And so 324 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: when I chose to go to the coronation following following 325 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 3: my conviction, you know, I had to tell my probation officer, look, 326 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 3: I'm going to the coronation. I am going I'm going 327 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 3: to peacefully protest. I'm just going to be there, deal 328 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 3: with it, you know. And basically he told me that 329 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,639 Speaker 3: the counter Terrorism Department was seeking an injunction from the 330 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 3: courts to stop me attending but then the court had 331 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 3: ruled that no I was allowed to attend. I'd already 332 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 3: been given my punishment and he wasn't going to put 333 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: any further conditions on me not be allowing allowed to go. 334 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 3: So so but I knew that if I went to 335 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 3: the coronation and they would arrest me anyway, and it 336 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 3: would make them look bad, you know. And then they 337 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,239 Speaker 3: they did. You know, I was as well as well 338 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 3: as all of the organizers. I was there, you know, 339 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 3: just not my king, blah blah blah. And then and 340 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 3: then I and then I look up and there's a 341 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 3: little watchtower that they had erected in the center of 342 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: Trafalgar Square, and I just saw that there was about 343 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: seven police officers just all like staring at me and 344 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 3: filming me from you know, like two hundred meters away. 345 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, okay, they're gonna arrest me now. 346 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, I gave my phone and my wallet to 347 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 3: my brother and then smile. And then within seconds, within seconds, 348 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: they were just dragging me out, like you know, in handcuffs, 349 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: from the center of a of a crowd of about 350 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 3: you know, twenty thousand people. And and it honestly couldn't 351 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 3: have looked like more like overtly fascist if they tried, 352 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: and and that was kind of the point. Really is. 353 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: A man, I uh, such a wild story, but. 354 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 4: I'm I'm glad you did what you did. 355 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: I'm impressed by the amount of thought that kind of 356 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: went into the optics of it, because it's really the 357 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 1: only way to turn an egg into an effective weapon, 358 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:17,719 Speaker 1: right is by very careful planning. I'm kind of curious 359 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: where do you see what do you see as the 360 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: route forward for both not just kind of opposing the 361 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: monarchy in your country, but sort of opposing the overreach 362 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: by the police. This is a problem in more places 363 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 1: than the United Kingdom, but y'all are kind of on 364 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: one of the cutting edges of sort of global attempts 365 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 1: by law enforcement and its supporters in the state to 366 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: effectively make dissent impossible. Ahead of what everyone knows is 367 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: going to be kind of a heightening period of climate 368 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: based activism. 369 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so with the climate activist movement in the UK, 370 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: you know, we've seen extinction rebellion active since like twenty eighteen, 371 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: and I've been, you know, arrested multiple times with them 372 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 3: at different actions. You know, the part of their strategy 373 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 3: was that mass arrests, you know, blocking roads, nonviolent direct 374 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 3: action and civil disobedience would force the government to take action. 375 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 3: And I think really we're seeing that strategy like having 376 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: run its course. And I think for a while now 377 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 3: that's been evident that it wasn't working because they've just 378 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: banned the types of protest that we were doing. And 379 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 3: also it was essentially quite naive to believe that, yeah, oh, 380 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 3: you know, if we cause enough desruption, they're just going 381 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 3: to put aside all of the you know, lobbying interests 382 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 3: and their literal role in upholding capitalism to just go, 383 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 3: oh no, okay, fair enough that they're blocked and roads, 384 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 3: we are going to like radically transform society to deal 385 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: with climate breakdown. That was never going to work, you know, realistically. 386 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: And so so even though you know, we've seen every 387 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 3: time they pass these these new legislation, there are there's 388 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 3: a there's a backlash, there's some marches, there's some protests 389 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: that fizzle out, and the state just keep consolidating more 390 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: and more power, and people keep getting more and more 391 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 3: disillusioned with. 392 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: He says, with what an effective strategy of resistance looks 393 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: like and so for me personally, it's something I've been 394 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: thinking about for a while now. 395 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 3: But recently have is that, you know, we have to 396 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 3: stop asking politicians through direct democracy at the local level 397 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 3: and essentially you know, using like democratic confederalism, you know, 398 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 3: as they're doing Rajava, to to look at creating a 399 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: national network of people's assemblies that builds dual power outside 400 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,959 Speaker 3: of the state. Because because because I think a lot 401 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 3: of the problem with these direct action movements is that 402 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: they don't have the legitimacy of a democratic mandate. So 403 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 3: that's even whilst the tactics might be like in some 404 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 3: way effective, you know, Extinction Rebellion has always said our 405 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: message is to say that climate change is a serious threat, 406 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 3: but we cannot propose the solutions because we don't have 407 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: a democratic mandate. But the way to you know, work 408 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 3: around that is to build a democratic mandate through holding 409 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 3: people's assemblies, creating forums where people can create their own vision, 410 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 3: and then direct action can then be used in service 411 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 3: of those aims rather than putting the car before the horse, 412 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 3: if that makes sense. 413 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: No, yeah, I think that that's certainly like one of 414 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: the more pragmatic ways forward that I think I've seen, 415 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 1: you know, we're we're always talking about an uphill battle here, 416 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: and I think kind of the inherent difficulty of fixing 417 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: any of these bigger problems, particularly fixing the and what 418 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: we mean is dismantling the systems that are causing climate destruction, 419 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: and like that is such a lopsided battle that I 420 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: think whenever, whenever you have you present an option to people, 421 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: because it sounds hard, there's this tendency to just be like, well, 422 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: you know, we have to go by the thing that 423 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: we know, which is just kind of like trying to 424 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: vote in better people. If we can take a lesson 425 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: out of the last thirty years, it's that the standard 426 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: electoral methods cannot provide the solution to climate change, Like 427 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: they simply aren't going to do it. And I think 428 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: the police in a lot of kind I mean in 429 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: the United States right here in one of my old hometown's, Austin, Texas, 430 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: they just voted on a police accountability bill that the 431 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: police have basically said we're not going to abide by 432 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: like this is and you can find stories like that 433 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: all over the United States and other parts of the world. 434 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: Like the kind of the hope that you can just 435 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: sort of like put in your however long it takes 436 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: you to do voting in your country or city or whatever, 437 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: and that that's the method forward. It's it seems more 438 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: realistic because it's more familiar. But I think the vision 439 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: you're putting forward not to say that it's as simp 440 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,680 Speaker 1: that's simple, but like it's effortful. And I think that 441 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: whenever someone's positing something like that that requires that kind 442 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: of like effort from a large enough segment of the population, 443 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 1: I see that as inherently more realistic than hoping that 444 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: we can just all kind of keep putting our twenty 445 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: minutes of voting a year towards solving the problem and 446 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 1: expect it to get better. 447 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like one of those things with you know, 448 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 3: like the idea that imagining prison abolition, you have to 449 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 3: imagine a world where that's possible, and that requires changing everything, right, 450 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 3: and I think that applies is to tackling climate change 451 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 3: and implementing direct democracy. So you know, if you're talking 452 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 3: about a system where people can turn up to a 453 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 3: forum in a local community center or you know, church 454 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,239 Speaker 3: or whatever once a week, then people say, well, that's 455 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 3: not going to be accessible, you know, because so it's like, well, 456 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: you're right, we'll probably have to set up a system 457 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: of mutual aid that supports you know, working class people 458 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 3: to be able to attend those kind of events. And 459 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: you know, yeah, it's like how you're going to pay 460 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 3: for it, And it's like, well, you're right, We're probably 461 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: going to have to, you know, set up a solidarity 462 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 3: economy where, you know, we if we decide, for example, 463 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: that we want free public transport then and and bus 464 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 3: drivers to be paid paid a fair wage, you know, 465 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,160 Speaker 3: then you're going to have to look at a whole 466 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 3: system whereby people are potentially getting free housing in return 467 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 3: for being a bus driver, free food that comes from 468 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: the local food cooperative. And you're like, I say, building 469 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: dual power rather than attacking the system head on, because 470 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: in a battle, in a pitch street battle in this country, 471 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: at least between us and the police, that we're going 472 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 3: to lose. And I think that, you know, we need 473 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 3: to think smarter because at this point, they haven't yet 474 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 3: made organizing public meetings illegal, but you know, they probably 475 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: will at some point, and then it's the only way 476 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 3: we'll be able to resist that is if we've had 477 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 3: some public meetings to decide how we're going to do it, 478 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 3: because at the moment, we haven't even had the meeting 479 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 3: to decide what our collective strategy is because there is 480 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 3: so much atomization between these different like you know, left 481 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: wing like social movements and civil society organizations and so much. 482 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: Sometimes just depresses me to think about how many people 483 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 3: are working for environmental charities or whatever, where all of 484 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: their work and their research is going towards creating policy 485 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 3: proposals for politicians to ignore it. If you were putting 486 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 3: that amount of energy and your enthusiasm in service of 487 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 3: the vision that's been created democratically by the people, then 488 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 3: we don't need to petition anyone to make the changes 489 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 3: we need, because we'll have organized effectively enough to do 490 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: the things that will really challenge state power, for example, 491 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 3: like a mass rent strike and a general strike. 492 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: Or if those efforts that are currently going towards putting 493 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: policy papers on desks where they'll be ignored or neutered, 494 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: was going towards putting forth policy that is then being 495 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: backed by a movement that is carrying out rent strikes, 496 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: that is putting out together work stoppages, that is blocking 497 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 1: roads that's able to actually throttle some of the life 498 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: support system of the state. Well, then suddenly you're not 499 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: looking at a recommendation, a white paper that's going to 500 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: wind up on some bloodless bureaucrats desk, or that's going 501 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: to wind up getting cut to pieces in Parliament. You're 502 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: you have something that that has teeth behind it, right, 503 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: the kind of force that might be able to make change. 504 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 4: I don't know. 505 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: Again, when you talk about this kind of stuff, you 506 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: have to contrast it with what we've been trying so far, 507 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: which is nothing. 508 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, diversity of tactics is huge, and 509 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 3: so you know a lot of these direct action groups 510 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 3: in the UK, like just Stop Oil that have been 511 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 3: blocking motorways and stuff, have received, like you know, huge criticism, 512 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,960 Speaker 3: especially from people who you know really ought to be 513 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 3: allies and at least recognize the the that this action 514 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 3: is coming out of a place of desperation because people 515 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: cannot see a better way. Yeah, and you know, there 516 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 3: was a there's someone from just Stop Oil who just 517 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 3: got three years in prison for blocking a motorway and 518 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 3: and that's that's insane, you know, And you know on 519 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 3: some level that person is it is a martyr, and 520 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 3: you've got to hold your your often say. What that 521 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 3: has done is shine a spotlight again on state authority 522 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 3: in a way that you know, if they have these 523 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 3: laws on the books but they never have to use them, 524 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 3: then it's easy to forget that they exist. We have 525 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 3: that power. 526 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 4: Do you want to talk a little bit about cooperation UK? 527 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, So so you know, for me, I'm a 528 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 3: democratic confederalist, you know, I mean or like you know, 529 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 3: the Rajavant project using direct democracy but also confederating that 530 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: up to sort of replace the state with a form 531 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 3: of governance that's democratic. And you know, I also I'm 532 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 3: a big believer in cosmocracy, right, which is the proper 533 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 3: name for global democracy. 534 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: He says, essentially, you know, I wrote about this while 535 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: I was doing my masters. 536 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: And that is how potentially, if we were implementing this 537 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 3: system world, we can use the internet to confederate to 538 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 3: a global level, you know, and really start to ta 539 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 3: call the issues that we collectively face as humanity, which 540 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 3: is like the fact that our separation from nature and 541 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 3: the rise of fascism is is threatening angus with extinction. 542 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 3: And so yeah, I'm a citizen of Earth and you know, 543 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: that that's what motivates a lot of my actions. But 544 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 3: you know, in some ways I've been kind of stewing 545 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: on these ideas alone. And so recently I met a 546 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: group called Cooperation UK. Who are you know, connecting. I 547 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: can often get bogged down in abstract theory about like 548 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 3: how you know, changing the whole world and never actually 549 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 3: doing anything practical. That's my downfall. But you know, you 550 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: need to start a movement like that locally, and and 551 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: so they're copying Cooperation Jackson, you know, who have been 552 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 3: incredibly effective, you know, setting up people's assemblies, mutual aid 553 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 3: economy in Jackson and also like a community land trust. 554 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 3: You know, they own like fifty different buildings you know 555 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 3: that are used collectively by the community. And this group 556 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 3: are planning to set that up in Hull, which is 557 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 3: just a city in the Northeast that's incredibly deprived. It's 558 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 3: got like the lowest voter turnout in the UK, but 559 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: it also has a thriving network of food banks and 560 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: you know cooperatives and mutual aid groups. And I think 561 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 3: the next step for me is when those those groups 562 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: send delegates to meet together and decide on collective strategy, 563 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 3: right like because there are so many people doing so 564 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,719 Speaker 3: much good work, but there's almost like no faith in 565 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 3: our own vision, which is that if we're the people 566 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 3: you know who are say a union for nurses, then 567 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: you know, we should be deciding the conditions that exist 568 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 3: in healthcare, you know, because who better besides patients and 569 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 3: like staff is that to decide the conditions that they 570 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 3: that they operate in. And and so yeah, cooperation UK. 571 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 3: There are there's a group of us that are moving 572 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 3: to Whull. I'm moving. I'm moving next week. I'm really 573 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 3: excited about it. And yeah, we're planning to set up 574 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 3: lots of local neighborhood assemblies with the intention of within 575 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: a year holding a citywide people's assembly that can create 576 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 3: a shared vision and then and then potentially you know, 577 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 3: standing candidates for local council, but whose only policy is 578 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 3: we will enact. We will give power to the people's 579 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 3: assemblies and then they can use the you know, financial 580 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 3: power of existing institutions to support the transition to a 581 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 3: new model. And whilst they're doing that in Hull, you know, 582 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 3: the work that I hope to be doing is document 583 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 3: in that process learning, you know, so people can learn 584 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 3: from the mistakes and that, you know, and hopefully we 585 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,000 Speaker 3: can set them up in in every city well across 586 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 3: the UK, because there are already people who's think very 587 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: similarly and that we're at a time now where that's 588 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 3: coalescing into the you know, people are recognizing the need 589 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 3: for this new movement with a new strategy that's based 590 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: around democracy rather than just activism. And yeah, it's really exciting. 591 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's I think that's a worthwhile idea. 592 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: I think it's a it's it's bold and something that 593 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm I'm glad to see being attempted. Well, it's been 594 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: really great talking with you today. Did you have anywhere 595 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,239 Speaker 1: you wanted to direct listeners in order to help if 596 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 1: they're interested in what Cooperation UK is doing. 597 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. So there's there's a crowdfunder that I think 598 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 3: there'll be. I believe there'll be a link that you 599 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 3: guys can act. 600 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: He says, and we'll be using that money to set 601 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: up the People's Assembly and mutual aid networks, but also 602 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: to create resources that anyone anywhere can use in their 603 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: local community. 604 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 3: And I hope is that, you know, as these groups proliferate, 605 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 3: you know, going to start reaching out to each other, 606 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 3: forming an international solidarity network that is capable of providing 607 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 3: like the mutual aid that we that we need to 608 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 3: support each other, you know, for example, you know, if 609 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 3: we're talking about Palestine or Iran, to provide real meaningful solidarity, 610 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 3: these you know, liberation groups will require more organization than 611 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 3: just like thoughts and prayers. 612 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 1: Really and yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much, Patrick, 613 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 1: It has been great talking with you. Good luck as 614 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: you continue moving forward. 615 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, thanks very much. Yeah, I guess I 616 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 3: should also say I'm on I'm bizarrely, I'm on TikTok. 617 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 3: That's the medium I'm using at the moment. I wish 618 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,280 Speaker 3: it wasn't. I'll probably want to start making more YouTube 619 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 3: videos discussing these ideas, So maybe I'll send you a 620 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 3: link that you can put in there, the Citizen of 621 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 3: Earth Show. It's my YouTube channel. 622 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: Excellent, well, Patrick, tell well Citizen of Earth YouTube channel 623 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: and we'll of your TikTok and the description. 624 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 4: Thanks again for coming on the show. 625 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 1: Everybody go out and uh, you know, acquire eggs. 626 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of Cool Zone Media. 627 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website 628 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 629 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can 630 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at 631 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 2: coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.