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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. Oh it's Monday, January nineteenth. Happy

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Speaker 2: Martin Luther King Day, Doctor Martin Luther King. We hope

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Speaker 2: you had a beautiful day. Throughout the next two hours,

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Speaker 2: we're going to be sharing some quotes, some significant ones,

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Speaker 2: and man, they all seem so timely even today.

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Speaker 3: But listen, we're so glad you're with us.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to another stack knight of headlines, my friends, So listen,

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Speaker 2: is it possible that something was mishandled in the Ellen

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Speaker 2: Greenberg case? There seems to be a federal probe into

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Speaker 2: how the investigation itself has been handled, and after ten

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Speaker 2: long years, one of the fbis most wanted, one of

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Speaker 2: the ten has been brought into custody. Think about law

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Speaker 2: enforcement taking their lives into this fugitives hands being at

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Speaker 2: large for so long. And also that news anchor, We've

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Speaker 2: talked about her quite a bit. Who's who allegedly murdered

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Speaker 2: her own mother. There's some big developments in that case

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Speaker 2: as well. Of course we'll be following. So my first quote,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna throw mine into the till. If you want

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Speaker 2: to join us here, please do eight eight eight three

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Speaker 2: one crime. By the way, I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in. We have producer Taha

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Speaker 2: and Sam and Adam in the control room waiting for

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Speaker 2: your call. So my big quote injustice anywhere is a

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Speaker 2: threat to justice everywhere.

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Speaker 3: That's right? Come on, I got that hold up? Or what? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: It sure does, right, ladies.

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Speaker 5: We all picked our favorites, right, we all get our

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Speaker 5: face quotes from Doctor Martin Luther King, and we're just

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Speaker 5: gonna kind of sprinkle them throughout the show.

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Speaker 3: What's your favorite?

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Speaker 4: We have to wait?

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Speaker 3: Us?

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Speaker 4: Do we have to wait? Oh?

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Speaker 3: It's okay. Are you one of those people who like

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Speaker 3: doesn't get to open if you really want to, like

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Speaker 3: a Christmas present early or a person?

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Speaker 5: I am definitely that you're Like, I'm also the person

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Speaker 5: that if I buy you a present, I need you

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Speaker 5: to open it immediately, Like I want you to open it,

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Speaker 5: like right, don't.

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Speaker 3: That's a tough one. I don't know that.

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Speaker 2: I love the pressure of that. Sometimes that can feel

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Speaker 2: like a little bit of like in the moment, pressure

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Speaker 2: to a certain way emotionally that might feel disappointing. Yes,

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Speaker 2: of course, added layer, adding a weird added layer to

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Speaker 2: the gift exchange. Why not just say thank you and

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Speaker 2: open it with pleasure?

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Speaker 4: Sorry about that, Sorry to make it weird, right, but

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Speaker 4: just like yeah, rip it open and be psyched.

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Speaker 3: You got a present.

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Speaker 4: Awful, It's awful anyway, You're.

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Speaker 3: Right, you are right.

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Speaker 4: Let's test it tomorrow. Presents for everyone. There you go, Sorry, Courtney.

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Speaker 3: Go ahead, Courtney. Well, the FBI deserves a present because they,

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Speaker 3: after a decade on the run, they have captured Alejandro

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Speaker 3: Rosales Castillo. And he was, as you said, on the

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Speaker 3: top ten list. He was accused of a twenty sixteen

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Speaker 3: murder in North Carolina. Ultimately was captured in Mexico. And

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Speaker 3: this just happened on Friday.

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Speaker 4: Wow yeah, so little yeah coverage.

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Speaker 3: So what happened was in August of twenty sixteen, he

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Speaker 3: killed twenty three year old truck kwan Sandy Lilly, and

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Speaker 3: he lured her Sandy Lyley, excuse me, he lured her

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Speaker 3: to meet him under the pretense that he was going

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Speaker 3: to repay money he owed her. Instead of giving her

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Speaker 3: back the one thousand dollars that she had given him,

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Speaker 3: instead Castillo robbed her. He made her go and empty

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Speaker 3: really her entire bank account, told out another thousand dollars,

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Speaker 3: and then he shot her and disposed of her body. Wow. Yep.

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Speaker 3: So Castilla was seventeen years old only at the time

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Speaker 3: of this crime and made it onto the FBI Top

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Speaker 3: ten Wanted Fugitives list.

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Speaker 4: That's awfully young to be on the top ten fugitive list.

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Speaker 3: Farness. Yeah, absolutely, they had choices. So the victims Sandy Lyley,

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Speaker 3: she was twenty three years old at the time. The

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Speaker 3: pair were coworkers at a restaurant in North Carolina and

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Speaker 3: they had had a romantic relationship in the past. So

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Speaker 3: on the day Castillo again he texted Lily and said, hey,

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Speaker 3: come meet me, and then robbed her, possibly armed, that's

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Speaker 3: actually still in question. Then he led her to this

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Speaker 3: wooded area and shot her one time in the head,

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Speaker 3: dumped her body in the ravine. So after that, her

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Speaker 3: body was found about a week later, but he was

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Speaker 3: already gone. So Castillo called up the girl that he

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Speaker 3: was dating Ammy Feaster and said hey, come with me.

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Speaker 3: And then the pair called their families and saying hey,

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Speaker 3: we're safe, but didn't disclose their location. So the families

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Speaker 3: it was complicated. The families actually thought that they were

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Speaker 3: being potentially held captive. The guilt became too much for

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Speaker 3: the girlfriend, Feaster. She turns herself into authorities. Oh so

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Speaker 3: she was actually wanted to Yeah, because yeah, they knew.

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Speaker 3: Well does she helped him escape?

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Speaker 2: I guess being very helpful. She was aiding in a

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Speaker 2: bedding right.

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Speaker 3: And she wasn't saying, hey, I'm here with this guy

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Speaker 3: you're looking for for a murder and she honestly the

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Speaker 3: pressure got to her after two months. So the crime

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Speaker 3: happened in August, and in October of twenty sixteen, Against

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Speaker 3: turned herself in and she was extradited back to the

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Speaker 3: US and was charged with accessory after the fact of

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Speaker 3: a felony murder and larceny of a motor vehicle. Oh

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Speaker 3: sole a car on to get out of town. Wow. So,

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Speaker 3: according to Feaster, the pair they had stayed with Castillo,

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Speaker 3: the guy on the run, stayed with his cousins in

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Speaker 3: Agua Caliente, Mexico for about those two months and then

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Speaker 3: the guy disappeared on his own, but through a joint

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Speaker 3: operation with all these acronyms. It was the FBI, it

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Speaker 3: was inter Pole, it was the Charlotte Police Department. Yes,

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Speaker 3: everyone got together and they got this guy and customer.

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Speaker 3: Good for them. I'm glad.

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Speaker 2: I would Officer be able to live on the lamb

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Speaker 2: I would have. I would be a disaster. I would

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Speaker 2: be broken out in hives twenty four hours a day.

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Speaker 2: I would looking over my shoulder being so suspicious.

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Speaker 3: It would be so un good.

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Speaker 5: I would literally look like the unibomber. I'd be like

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Speaker 5: the hoody up the sunblasts.

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Speaker 4: In a mustache and dark glasses.

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Speaker 5: Like the nose with the you know what I mean,

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Speaker 5: like the groutro marks disguise.

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Speaker 4: You know, that would be me. It would be so obvious.

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Speaker 3: Like I was supposed to volunteer at school, and I

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Speaker 3: did it a lot, and one day I just for

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Speaker 3: whatever reason, I didn't want to or I couldn't. And

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Speaker 3: then I went to go get myself an iced coffee

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Speaker 3: and I found myself like looking over my shoulder, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: what if? So it is so fun? Yeah, I feel

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Speaker 3: like you would be pretty good. Courtney or I'm strong. Actually,

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Speaker 3: I think you would be pretty good.

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Speaker 2: I always had this spantishy TV show that we've tried

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Speaker 2: to develop a thousand times called Undercover Mother. Oh, it's

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Speaker 2: just that you have undercover mother, that is the mom who's.

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Speaker 4: Like, what goes on behind closed doors at school? How

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Speaker 4: is my kid?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: What is what goes on?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: And they become undercover mother. Maybe they work at the

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Speaker 2: lunch maybe they work in the office, and they see

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Speaker 2: then you can see like where does your where does

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Speaker 2: your kids fit in the spectrum?

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Speaker 3: Where? Show?

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Speaker 4: That's what I would Yeah, I know, tell me we've

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Speaker 4: been we're pitching it live. It was yeah, be so good.

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Speaker 4: I feel like I think that would be a good

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Speaker 4: undercover mother. Maybe I'd be a disaster.

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Speaker 3: You'd be dropping things.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Wow, here's what This is your crime tonight and

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Speaker 5: iHeart radio. We're talking true crime all the time. We're

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Speaker 5: right in the middle of talking about the apprehension of

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Speaker 5: Alex Rosales Castillo. He was on he was like one

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Speaker 5: of the top ten most wanted by the FBI and

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Speaker 5: he was just captured and Courtney's kind of breaking down

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Speaker 5: what happened Courtney? What are other some uh top ten,

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Speaker 5: Uh information that you got for us.

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Speaker 3: So I didn't realize how little I did know. So

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Speaker 3: the FBI's Top ten most Wanted Fugitive list started back

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Speaker 3: in nineteen fifty and under the FBI Director J Edgar Hoover,

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Speaker 3: and the whole purpose was to highlight individuals who are

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Speaker 3: accused of very serious violent crimes or major threats to

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Speaker 3: public safety and basically whose capture would benefit from some

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Speaker 3: widespread public attention. So like this guy who's on the

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Speaker 3: LAMB FBI field offices, which they're all over the country.

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Speaker 3: There's several hundred I think candidates are nominated, FBI Headquarters

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Speaker 3: approves them, and they're only removed from the list when

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Speaker 3: they're captured, killed, or no longer sought, as in they're

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Speaker 3: just not considered a threat anymore. And as soon as

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Speaker 3: one goes off the lift us, they're pretty quickly replaced

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Speaker 3: with another one.

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Speaker 5: So there's like some kind of committee I'm imagining where

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Speaker 5: they submit nominees for this list.

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Speaker 4: I wonder what is to get too, I am too nominated.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think the widespread attention makes sense because you

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Speaker 3: want it so obviously it's someone who you really can't find,

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Speaker 3: like I don't know what the destination would be.

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Speaker 2: It seems like you're accepting complete failure, but at the

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Speaker 2: same time it's incredibly heroic, so you know, so I

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Speaker 2: see this from so many angles like this one just

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Speaker 2: got us stumped because he's so good at evading the law,

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Speaker 2: but here he is. You can America and just know

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Speaker 2: that they are on the loose. Good luck, good luck,

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Speaker 2: or it has a high success rate, which it apparently does,

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Speaker 2: kind of like that Amber alert.

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Speaker 5: Don't get me Sama bin laan on it for a

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Speaker 5: long time. Yeah, yeah, sure, it was a colleague shake Muhammad,

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Speaker 5: I think too.

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Speaker 6: M Anyway, I always think about that killer.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: Right, US Marshals added again, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Very very rarely, the FBI will add a number eleven number,

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Speaker 3: and that's yeah, and that's only in cases where a

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Speaker 3: person is deemed to be extremely dangerous. It's timely, but

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Speaker 3: it's rare. And then this was interesting. There is no

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Speaker 3: number one FBI most wanted. There's not it's not ranked.

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Speaker 5: Oh so it's just ten, because I thought that was like,

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Speaker 5: there's a ways A first though from an optics perspective.

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Speaker 4: I would I would imagine like position on the.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's left to right, top to bottom, there's a first,

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Speaker 2: it's probably by date.

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Speaker 6: I don't know about that.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, burning question for kaplan to tackle for us

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Speaker 2: that we're back on that.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting. Yeah. So in that time, since nineteen fifty,

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Speaker 3: there have been over five hundred fugitives listed. Only twelve

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Speaker 3: were women. Is that five hundred and thirty seven only twelve?

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Speaker 4: I I'm only surprised. Why are you so surprised? Can

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Speaker 4: I interrupt?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 5: Dude, Okay, So I just looked it up, this number

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Speaker 5: eleven thing. Guess who was on it?

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Speaker 4: You guys?

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Speaker 3: Can we guess?

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Speaker 5: I'm like freaking out. James Earl Ray he was number eleven.

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Speaker 5: He's the guy that assassinated Martin Luther King, doctor Martin

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Speaker 5: Luther King.

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Speaker 4: Wow, I am freaking out.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of your coincidence or is a weird coincidence?

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Speaker 2: Is there any such thing as a coincidence?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Romsey yusef too, he's the guy that planned the ninety

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Speaker 5: three World Trade Center bombing too. He was number eleven.

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Speaker 5: And then whether underground there were six members that was

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Speaker 5: like a kind of like a cult thing. I guess

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Speaker 5: back in the Day from nineteen seventy. Wow, James Lray,

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Speaker 5: are you kidding me right now?

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Speaker 6: Is that a weird coincidence?

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Speaker 3: That's a weird coincidence. I just looked it up.

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Speaker 4: I don't think there are such things as coincidences.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what that means. But I didn't mean it.

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Speaker 4: But I so like, well, let's get a doctor Martin

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Speaker 4: Luther King quote, can we can that be a good

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Speaker 4: tea up? Well?

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Speaker 3: I just I think so. You know, I have two

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Speaker 3: in one place, so I'll say one that I added

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Speaker 3: it's very simple. Let no man pull you so low

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Speaker 3: as to hate him. M that's a good one. That

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Speaker 3: kills right now. Yeah, a good one. And that one

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Speaker 3: is something I have been struggling with a little bit.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of tensions about a lot of things, sure,

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Speaker 3: and I have found myself having say, unkind thoughts couldn't

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Speaker 3: be more of an understatement, And I'm like, who really

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Speaker 3: is that?

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Speaker 2: Not the least unkind person? But it's okay to have

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Speaker 2: an unkind thought, Courtney Armstrong, your human being.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you don't want to hate anybody, right, that's yeah?

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Speaker 3: You know what we hate is people hating each other.

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Speaker 2: So that's a little counterintuitive too, like that loop continues.

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Speaker 3: That's really it continues. And also I think it is additive.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, there's no such thing as a coincidence.

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Speaker 3: I think thoughts and actions they all kind of all matter.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a freaking hour. And eleven is an eleven

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Speaker 4: and angel number we learned.

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Speaker 5: This, Yeah, eleven eleven eleven. Oh my gosh, okay, there's

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Speaker 5: too many. Do we have the spirit of doctor Martin

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Speaker 5: Luther King with us?

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Speaker 6: We might have that spirit with us. Oh, you gave

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Speaker 6: me chills.

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Speaker 3: Just now tell me going. I mean, you guys are

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Speaker 3: really following the rules on how the quotes get.

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Speaker 4: Listen, I selected my two quotes.

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Speaker 3: We cut the line. I feel like we're okay.

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Speaker 6: There's one more before we go to break a quick one.

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Speaker 6: And unjust law is no law at all.

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Speaker 4: So unjust law is no just law, is no law

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Speaker 4: at all.

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Speaker 5: Gosh, okay, there's a lot of a lot of heavy

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Speaker 5: things happening right now. We just have a spiritual moment.

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Speaker 5: But that's crazy. We'll stay with us. Listen, We're going

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Speaker 5: to get right into it. The case that we were

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Speaker 5: just talking about the assassination of doctor Martin Luther King Junior,

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Speaker 5: plus the FBI secret campaign to surveil and intimidate him.

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Speaker 5: Keep it right here, True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body. Move in on this beautiful Martin

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Speaker 2: Luther King day. Doctor Martin Luther King, I might ad

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Speaker 2: so listen, there's this new federal probe into the handling

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Speaker 2: of Ellen Greenberg's investigation.

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Speaker 4: What does that even mean. We're going to unpack that

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Speaker 4: later in the show. And also an update with that

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Speaker 4: news anchor who allegedly murdered her own mother.

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Speaker 2: What could have gone wrong? So we're going to get

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Speaker 2: to that later in the show as well. But first, Body, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so listen, I'm gonna do my quote.

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Speaker 3: That's why.

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Speaker 5: Finally, so as I chose two quotes, and you know,

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Speaker 5: this was my idea, like to talk about these quotes.

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Speaker 5: So I had two in mind that I really wanted

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Speaker 5: to say, and this one is really personal to me.

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Speaker 5: And it's like, you know, you know how you have

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Speaker 5: like your Facebook page and your Instagram and it's like

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Speaker 5: you're about in these this quote.

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Speaker 4: It's in those about mesh the So this.

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Speaker 5: Is a doctor Martin Luther King quote, and it's the

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Speaker 5: arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends

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Speaker 5: towards justice.

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Speaker 4: It sure does, it sure does.

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Speaker 5: Right, And the case I'm going to talk about is

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Speaker 5: kind of, you know, related to that a little bit.

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Speaker 5: And the case I'm going to talk about is the

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Speaker 5: assassination of doctor Martin Luther King Junior. So you know

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Speaker 5: doctor Martin Luther King Junior. He was assassinated. He was

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Speaker 5: only thirty nine years old on April fourth, in nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixty eight in Memphis, Tennessee. And the accused in this

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Speaker 5: case and the convicted in this case, his name was

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Speaker 5: James Earl Ray and he was forty years old, and

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Speaker 5: he pled guilty, but he later recanted, and that fueled

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Speaker 5: speculation about a wider conspiracy, which you know, carries on

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Speaker 5: to this date. I'm gonna get into that in just

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Speaker 5: a second. There have been some alternative theories suggesting possible

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Speaker 5: involvement or at least complicity by government agencies, citing the

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Speaker 5: FBI is a long history of surveillance and harassment of

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Speaker 5: doctor Martin Luther King Junior by the FBI director at

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Speaker 5: the time, j Edgar Hoover. Right, So, but here's what happened.

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Speaker 5: Here's what we knew prior to let's say, nineteen ninety nine. Okay,

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Speaker 5: this is the talking points.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So on April third and the fourth, doctor Martin Luther

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Speaker 5: In nineteen sixty eight, doctor Martin Luther King, Junior, he

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Speaker 5: was in Memphis and he was preparing for a march,

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Speaker 5: and this march was supporting African American sanitation workers. On

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Speaker 5: April fourth, while he was on the balcony of the

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Speaker 5: Lorraine Motel, he was shot at six oh one pm

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Speaker 5: from Room five B, which was kind of like across

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Speaker 5: the street. He was rushed to Saint Joseph's Hospital and

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Speaker 5: he was pronounced dead just an hour later at seven

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Speaker 5: five pm. Witnesses saw a white man fleeing the scene,

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Speaker 5: who was later identified as James Earl Ray, who became

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Speaker 5: number eleven on the FBI Most Wanted List.

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Speaker 4: I swear to God this is how it happened.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: So he he died from a Doctor Martin Luther King.

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Speaker 5: He died from a bullet that severed his spinal cord.

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Speaker 4: James are away.

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Speaker 5: He was an escape convict, so he was on the

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Speaker 5: lamb st okay, And so he purchased this Remington rifle

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Speaker 5: under an alias. He bought ammunition and then traveled to Memphis.

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Speaker 5: He rented a room at a boarding house and then

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Speaker 5: moved his room to room five B, specifically shortly right

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Speaker 5: before the assassination, he fired the fatal shot, fled Memphis,

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Speaker 5: and left the rifle and binoculars in the room, which

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Speaker 5: bore his fingerprints.

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Speaker 3: Seems a little too on the nose.

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Speaker 4: Doesn't it doesn't? Does it seem a little too on

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Speaker 4: the nose? Well?

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Speaker 5: He was arrested in London on June eighth, using a

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Speaker 5: falsified passport, So that was like what months later?

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Speaker 4: Three months later?

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Speaker 5: Two months later, and he was using a falsified passport.

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Speaker 5: He was extradited to Memphis. He pled guilty on March tenth,

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Speaker 5: nineteen sixty nine, which was eleven months after the assassination,

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Speaker 5: to avoid the death penalty, and he was sentenced to

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Speaker 5: ninety nine years. But he recanted three days later and

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Speaker 5: spent decades seeking a trial, claiming he did not act alone. Wow,

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Speaker 5: and that requested trial never happened, Okay, So because he

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Speaker 5: never had a trial, because he played guilty to avoid

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Speaker 5: the death penalty.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so there was no trial.

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Speaker 5: Well, this is what kind of blows me away. In

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Speaker 5: nineteen ninety nine, a Memphis jury decided something some people

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Speaker 5: have never heard about in relation to this case. Kreta

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Speaker 5: Scott King. She was Martin Luther King's widow. Okay, correct, Well,

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Speaker 5: she sued a guy. Okay, she sued a guy named

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Speaker 5: Lloyd Jowers. And so the case is called Kreta Scott

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Speaker 5: King versus. And in this case, the King family proved

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Speaker 5: in court that doctor Martin Luther King Junior was killed

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Speaker 5: as part of a conspiracy, not by alone gunman.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: The jury found that the state, local, and federal government

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Speaker 4: there was involvement on all levels and ruled that James

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Speaker 4: Earl Ray was not acting alone. The family asked for

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Speaker 4: in their judgment, They only asked for one hundred dollars

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Speaker 4: because they said it was never about money. It was

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Speaker 4: about the death of their loved one. You know the icon,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 3: The doctor Martin Luther King Junior.

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Speaker 5: So Lloyd Jowers, he owned a restaurant near the hotel

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Speaker 5: where doctor Martin Luther King Junior was assassinated and claimed

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Speaker 5: in nineteen ninety three that James earl Way was a

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Speaker 5: scapegoat and that the mafia and the government was involved.

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Speaker 5: So they had a date this big civil trial and

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Speaker 5: the jury was like, yeah, we agree, we agree. Well,

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Speaker 5: nothing ever came from that federally because the United States

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Speaker 5: government did look into that and they said, no, we're

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Speaker 5: not involved.

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Speaker 3: So they investigated themselves. They did.

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Speaker 6: They cleared themselves, So I cleared themselves.

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Speaker 5: So nothing has ever come from that, like at all,

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Speaker 5: but it's very well documented.

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Speaker 4: Apparently.

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Speaker 5: I feel kind of silly because I didn't know this,

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Speaker 5: you guys. I mean, I was digging into this today.

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I texted to add I was like, dude,

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Speaker 5: how did I not know this?

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Speaker 3: I know? I did not? Wait, does that make me

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Speaker 3: the smartest of you?

401
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Speaker 4: I feel like, let this be the day it has shown?

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Speaker 6: Tis it.

403
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Speaker 4: Right?

404
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Speaker 3: One time? I'm ever the smartest. So the reason this.

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Speaker 5: Has like a lot of like people kind of wringing

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Speaker 5: their hands obviously is the FBI, And this is you know,

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Speaker 5: very well documented as well. The FBI, under Director j

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Speaker 5: Edgar Hoover, he monitored doctor Martin Luther King Junior from

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Speaker 5: nineteen fifty five until his death in nineteen sixty eight,

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Speaker 5: uh years yeah, yeah, ja Agar Hoover initially cited you

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Speaker 5: know that he suspected there was communist influences the reason

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Speaker 5: for the surveillance. You remember, there was a big Red

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Speaker 5: Scare back then, right, like, you know, everything changed for

414
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Speaker 5: the United States, you know, as far as the communists

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Speaker 5: and the Red Scare and whatnot, and everything was being

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Speaker 5: blamed on communism, right, And they suspected because of the

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Speaker 5: things that doctor Martin Luther King was, you know, advocating for,

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Speaker 5: that he was a communist, Okay, So they put him

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Speaker 5: under surveillance, and they you know, they focused on discrediting

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Speaker 5: doctor Martin Luther King through operations that included wire taps

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Speaker 5: and attempts to expose alleged personal scandals. In fact, the

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Speaker 5: FBI sent him a letter, okay, anonymously, and it was

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Speaker 5: a it was meant to intimidate him and had a

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Speaker 5: compromising tape. It accused him of having an affairs and

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Speaker 5: they wanted him to commit suicide. The FBI wanted him

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Speaker 5: to commit suicide. So all these things are you know,

427
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Speaker 5: kind of leading to you know, of course, the King

428
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Speaker 5: family being like listen, this one guy did not kill her,

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Speaker 5: you know, my father and my husband, you know what

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Speaker 5: I mean.

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Speaker 4: Like, so they had to look into it. There was

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Speaker 4: a lot here.

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Speaker 5: It was called, uh, there was a program called cointell

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Speaker 5: Pro and it was a secret FBI initiative and it

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00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 5: was active between fifty six and seventy one, and it

436
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 5: was designated to or designed to monitor, infiltrate, discredit, and

437
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Speaker 5: disrupt domestic political organizations that the FBI considered subversive in

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Speaker 5: some way or a threat to national security. And doctor

439
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 5: Martin Luther King fell right into that, you know that

440
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 5: kind of genre, right, Yeah. They targeted groups linked to

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Speaker 5: the Communism Party, Ernie Lawn and focused heavily on civil

442
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 5: rights leaders, black national groups, anti Vietnam War activists, and

443
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 5: other social movements. Those of us, like you know, Gen

444
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 5: X and boomers and whatnot might remember some of this,

445
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,320
Speaker 5: you know a little bit, or even you know, watching

446
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 5: it on the news today seeing you know, history play

447
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 5: out right, like this is something that the FBI was

448
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 5: doing quite often. They operated covertly, often without any legal authorization.

449
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 5: They used tactics like surveillance, wire taps, anonymous letters, disinformation.

450
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 5: Their idea was to you know, infiltrate these groups and

451
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 5: kind of bust them out from the inside. If they

452
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 5: didn't like what you were saying, they were going to

453
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 5: join your civil rights leadership party whatever it was, and

454
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 5: kind of infiltrating. Now, doctor Martin Luther King was like,

455
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 5: you know, he was the guy, right, he was like

456
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 5: the head of it all, so they were really after

457
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 5: him at the FBI. They they in nineteen The FBI

458
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 5: was created in nineteen oh eight, and it was called

459
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 5: the Bureau of Investigation back then, and you know, it

460
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 5: expanded its role under Hoover to become the Federal Bureau

461
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 5: of Investigation. And that's when who I mean, Hoover was

462
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 5: really kind of monumental, monumental in shaping the modern FBI

463
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 5: good and I.

464
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 3: Mean in shaping modern history as well. And he hated King. Yeah, absolutely, Well, listen,

465
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 3: this is true crime tonight that you're listening to. If

466
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: you're just joining us. We're going over the details of

467
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 3: the assassination of doctor Martin Luther King on of course

468
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: this day Martin Luther King. Oy, well done.

469
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 6: I might a you're doing so, yeah, I am. That

470
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 6: a couple of details that I had not heard before,

471
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 6: So thank you for sharing. I feel like embarrassed not

472
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 6: knowing some of that.

473
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 3: I know now we do.

474
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 5: It's okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, Well, well now I

475
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 5: want to dig into these Well, I know that they

476
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 5: recently released the MLK files, like I think this year

477
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 5: or twenty twenty five.

478
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 6: I think they released the files when Trump initially got into.

479
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: I think so.

480
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 5: I think so, the JFK and the MLK, right, they

481
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 5: released all these files. And now knowing that the you know,

482
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 5: Loretta Scott King took this guy to court and the

483
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 5: jury was like, yeah, there was a conspiracy. Now I

484
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 5: want to dig into it, like, oh my gosh, what

485
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 5: really happened?

486
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 3: Is it in those files?

487
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 6: I would love a deeper dive into some of this.

488
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,159
Speaker 5: I would personally love to do that, like you know,

489
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 5: solo kind of dig into it a river and I'll

490
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 5: let you guys know what I find out.

491
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 4: But I mean, it's very interesting.

492
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 5: So who recalled doctor Martin Luther King Junior called him

493
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 5: the most notorious liar in the country. And then, of course,

494
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 5: you know I told you he sent this letter. Well

495
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 5: not him personally maybe, but he directed the FBI. They

496
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 5: sent this letter and it was this compromising tape and

497
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 5: this letter intended to intimidate him. And under the FBI,

498
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 5: of course, you know, Jaegar Hoover started to investigate these

499
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 5: subversives and started that coin tel program, which stands for

500
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: I think it's a counterintelligence program.

501
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: I believe it's what it stands for. But it's very interesting.

502
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 5: It's it's where they infiltrate these groups to get counterintelligence

503
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 5: on people they consider subversives in.

504
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 6: Modern times, I'm undercover persons.

505
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 5: Like say modern times like today. We'll just use today

506
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 5: as an example. Say the FBI under Cash Fattel, decided

507
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 5: to send somebody to infiltrate the people standing outside of

508
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 5: the Whipple building in Minnesota and you know that way

509
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 5: and maybe even start you know, kind of uh uh

510
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 5: messing with them a little bit, like if they had

511
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 5: like water, you know, to drink, you know, like the

512
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 5: counter intel would like steal the water, make things hard

513
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 5: for them, you know, kind of like instigate kind of

514
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 5: like my show that I was on the Mole, where

515
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 5: there's a person trying to like sabotage from the inside,

516
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 5: right without being caught, right, That's what counter intel pro

517
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 5: is and using modern times, and that's what they were

518
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 5: doing to the civil rights movement. When Martin Luther King,

519
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 5: doctor Martin Luther King Junior was running the show. It's

520
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 5: just fascinating this history. I mean, I knew about Quinn

521
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 5: Intel pro, but I didn't know that the court ruled.

522
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 6: That it was a conspiracy cospiracy.

523
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 5: But the thing is is that they haven't gone anywhere

524
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 5: else since then, Like there's no nobody's talking about it,

525
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 5: Like I have literally never heard this before.

526
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: Why are we not yelling at from the rooftops and more?

527
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: I don't know what I feel silly.

528
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 6: Question because it puts the FBI in a bad light,

529
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 6: so they just want.

530
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 4: To I don't, I mean I don't.

531
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 5: Maybe, I mean the FBI of today is certainly not

532
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 5: the FBI of yesteryear, you know what I mean?

533
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: Like that too, if you look back at a certain

534
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: case of yesteryear that maybe was in different hands in

535
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: different times, it's not even any shade on the hands

536
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: at that time, right, It's just things.

537
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: Of almost the time.

538
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 5: And yeah, Communism was really scary to Americans. I mean,

539
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 5: you guys remember doing those drills in school, you know,

540
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 5: get under I mean we had to do them all

541
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 5: the time. The Red Scare was such a big deal

542
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 5: and you know, it really affected the way the FBI

543
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 5: kind of operated, you know, and they were so terrified

544
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 5: of remember macartheism.

545
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, we're going to get the Epstein files.

546
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 3: This is just another.

547
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: A reminder that, you know, the safest place to be

548
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: I saw this as a meme. Is not an original thought,

549
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: but it's like, oh, the safest place in the world

550
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: to be is an Epstein file.

551
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 4: No, it's probably some truth to that. You're absolute, but

552
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 4: it seems like in this case as well. You know, No,

553
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 4: I don't think we're ever going to see that.

554
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 5: I think that I think the judge is going to

555
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 5: probably rule in the Epstein files that the DOJ has

556
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 5: the authority to interpret the law of themselves.

557
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: No, I know we are gonna they are going to

558
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: be released. I'm putting it out there.

559
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: No, I'll put it more. Yeah, no more hiding, No

560
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 3: more hiding. Listen, humming up. Your messages are in. We've

561
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: got hot taches, We've got questions and some story suggestions

562
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: from you, which we love. Batty, you had some breaking news.

563
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 5: Well I don't know if it's breaking, but you know,

564
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 5: Hailey Robson, she was our guest a couple months ago. Yeah,

565
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:53,959
Speaker 5: and she's an Epstein survivor. She filed a letter requesting

566
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 5: a federal judge intervene to make the DOJ comply with

567
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 5: Thomas Massey and Rocanna's law, the Ebsteine Files Transparency Act

568
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 5: and release the full files. It's not breaking news or anything,

569
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 5: but it is interesting. They're listen. These victims are trying everything,

570
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 5: everything within their power to get their voices heard.

571
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 4: And I'm proud of her.

572
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 3: It took the lot.

573
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 4: I'm proud of her too. It takes a lot of courage.

574
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: And by the way that this gets asked a lot right,

575
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 2: and I can understand why the question does get asked

576
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 2: so often. Why are they just not saying it to

577
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 2: the press. If the victims know a list of names,

578
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: for example, or has key information that they know they've

579
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: shared already with authorities and they feel like it's being

580
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: covered up, why are they not just not saying it

581
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: out loud. That's a fair question, And I think the

582
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 2: fair answer, as least how it's been explained to us,

583
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: is that it's really dangerous also for them to be

584
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: put in themselves out there naming names of people who

585
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: we now know for a fact have efforted to to

586
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: cover things up through finances. Right, So, very rich, powerful

587
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: entities and humans have put roadblocks in many many places

588
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 2: because they have the power and the authority to do that.

589
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: So I think that's the fair answer, do you guys?

590
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 5: I would absolutely agree, Because in the Epstein files, those

591
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 5: those victims who you know, gave testimony about their abuse.

592
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 5: You know, they named names, but their names will be redacted, right,

593
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 5: the victims' names will be redacted.

594
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 3: Who said so what exactly?

595
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 4: Who said what would be redacted?

596
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 5: Now if they stand up and they just you know,

597
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 5: read a list of names, it's not as impactful, right,

598
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 5: It's not as impactful to you know, just have people

599
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 5: read a list of names. It's more important to read

600
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 5: the context of what happened and shine a light on

601
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 5: what and actually know this. They know this, they know,

602
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 5: and I think that's why they are not doing you

603
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 5: know what people are suggesting by just okay, well just

604
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 5: name names.

605
00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 4: That's not the same as testimony.

606
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: Oath.

607
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: It's like every day there are these little chess pieces

608
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: being moved behind the scenes kind of quietly, and it's

609
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: not getting any say, you know, these documents being sort

610
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: of you know, filed in the wee hours of the morning.

611
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 3: Just before the weekend.

612
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 2: Like these are like tricky things, so we all have

613
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: to keep a little mindful watch. Also on this Tim

614
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: Bussfield thing, you know.

615
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness has made us statements and she's just

616
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 4: very forward. Well, she's spoken to the judge in a

617
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 4: letter Courtney go ahead, and she asked the judge to

618
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 4: protect quote her sweet husband while he's in jail.

619
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 3: And it's a very strange letter to me. I'll give

620
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: you part of it please. The reality is that Tim

621
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 3: Bussfield is my love, my rock, my partner in business

622
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 3: and life. He has my comfort and my counsel. His joy,

623
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: humor and quick wit bring sparkle to my life. These

624
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: sound like wedding vows. It's not like marrying him. Is

625
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: a judge, he confused, he's he's been accused.

626
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 2: Of pedophilia and is being accused of being a sex offender.

627
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: So yeah, this are not wedding vows.

628
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 3: No, and it's not purporting that you know, this is

629
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 3: doing no good and he will do better stuff outside.

630
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: It's more, he makes me so happy, let him out.

631
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 6: He's so sweet to say it all that he's he's

632
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 6: or she only focused on how sweet and loving.

633
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 3: He is just that he's filled with just that, he's

634
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 3: filled with the strongest moral compass of any human she's

635
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 3: ever known. He's dedicated to the spiritual self. And then

636
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 3: also this, which is a little cringe. Every single set

637
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: where Tim is working, uh, Busfield has been their favorite

638
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 3: director ever.

639
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 4: What else are you going to say to the wife?

640
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: Clearly the boss right? Oh boy, isn't that the truth?

641
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 4: What else do you say? This is a tough spot

642
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 4: though for Melissa Gilbert. Imagine maybe she's just crazy for

643
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 4: this man and she has no idea how or she's

644
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 4: had Her name has come up several times, and any

645
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 4: of the allegations that are against him, her name is

646
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 4: cited in it. So she does get wrapped up in this.

647
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: I'm not saying as a perpetrator or as anything he's

648
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 2: been accused of, allegedly, allegedly allegedly.

649
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: This is a tough one.

650
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 4: Do you stand by your man or are you like

651
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 4: I don't know, man, there's been some smoke a few

652
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 4: times before. I believed you the first time, and I

653
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 4: believed it the second time. Now there's a third time.

654
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 4: This is you know, right, I might need to just

655
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 4: dip it for a second, I.

656
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 3: Would imagine it.

657
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 5: I would imagine at this point, you know, it's been

658
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 5: what a week. I think at this point Timothy Busfeld

659
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 5: probably knows that's some of the evidence against him, right,

660
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 5: He's you know, he's been told this is what they've got.

661
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 5: You know, this is why you're under arrest. You know,

662
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 5: this is the evidence so far right that they have.

663
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 5: I mean, discovery has not been produced during him that yet.

664
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 5: But do you think that if do you think that

665
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 5: Melissa Gilbert knows the evidence against him at this point,

666
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 5: because she might not as she might, Oh your partner,

667
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 5: would you would you be like, well, they have evidence

668
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 5: on they have me on camera, you know, doing this.

669
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: Would he tell her that, well, here's and this is

670
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 3: dead speculation question. But I would have to imagine that

671
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 3: someone of Melissa Gilbert's sort of stature and fame and

672
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 3: all of that, someone on her team. Before you get married,

673
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: they just do background checks. M So I feel like

674
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 3: I feel like it's not to do so.

675
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 2: And if anyone doesn't know who Melissa Gilbert is. Melissa

676
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 2: Gilbert was half pint in Little House in the Prairie.

677
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 2: Now she's an adult and she enjoys baking and cooking

678
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 2: and does things online and you know, has a very

679
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: big career that she's had is both an actress and

680
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 2: you know big in the after I think sag after

681
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: she ran the union for a Huntman and as the president. Well,

682
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: her current husband, her third husband, has been accused of

683
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 2: some sexual abuse allegations against two young boys that were

684
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: minor children, and then another came out a seventeen year

685
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: old that came out. And then previous in yesteryear he

686
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: had also been accused, although it seemed as though this

687
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,720
Speaker 2: went away perhaps with the settlement of financial promise.

688
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 5: I thought those were the same ones. I thought the

689
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 5: seventeen year old is the same as the settlement.

690
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 6: I think that's the one you're talking about. The seventeen

691
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 6: year old was back at the playhouse and yeah, do

692
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 6: I think it was, and those allegations, I think that

693
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 6: was the same case.

694
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred and forty thousand dollars payout.

695
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, because when we were researching the case for last

696
00:38:55,960 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 5: week's show, it had mentioned court transfer rips and that

697
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 5: you know of the seventeen year ol. Remember the dad

698
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 5: was like, oh, you know, he said he's going to

699
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 5: get therapy and whatnot.

700
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 4: So I think I think it's the same one will to.

701
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 6: Well, don't check ropnfirm. If there's a third one that

702
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 6: we're not aware of, that.

703
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 3: That's well the judge. But and I think this is

704
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 3: actually important to note. So back in ninety six, a

705
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 3: judge ordered bus Field to pay one hundred and fifty

706
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: thousand dollars to a Minneapolis law firm, and that was

707
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,240
Speaker 3: from a failed defamation lawsuit that bus Field filed against

708
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: the firm. So that's one of the money is But

709
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 3: that we knew.

710
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 2: About so the twins that were young boys when these

711
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: most recent allegations happened. Prior to that, there had been this,

712
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 2: There was we had some information that he had been

713
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: accused of something at some point.

714
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: In years prior.

715
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: Perhaps Melissa Gilbert would have been aware of this as well,

716
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: had she did a Tier one background check, just to

717
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: bring the full circle. But you know, love mixed people

718
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: do crazy things. This was a long time ago. She's

719
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 2: been married for a minute, and I actually thought there

720
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,240
Speaker 2: was another seventeen year old there might be the words,

721
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: so forgive me, I should definitely.

722
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 4: Know regardless, how can you back from this if you're him?

723
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 3: I don't know.

724
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 4: I mean this is smoke, there's fire, right, I mean

725
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 4: always though, right, people being wrongfully accused of things three times,

726
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 4: I mean that would be hard. I'm even implying four,

727
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 4: So well, that's true.

728
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: Three is pretty bad.

729
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 6: Though your earlier point like like she if she did

730
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 6: a background check or if she you know, I'm sure

731
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 6: he probably talked to it about to talk to her

732
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 6: about this. He probably came up with all kinds of

733
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 6: excuses everything. Oh that was like, you know, storney, there

734
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 6: was something else. And to your point about if there's

735
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 6: evidence with this case, I feel like he's probably Well

736
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 6: that is the.

737
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 2: Angle I think still is that you know these were

738
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 2: wrongful termination issues that you know, maybe actors that were

739
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: invited back had a retaliation issue and this thus these

740
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 2: charges get filed by by mom.

741
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 4: Perhaps you know, these are the allegations. Although Courtney Armstrong

742
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 4: is made work faces this question, what did you just read?

743
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, I'm looking at the Washington Post and

744
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 3: court documents do refer to multiple alleged incidents. So the

745
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: seventeen year old girl who worked as an extra on

746
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: A Little Big League in the nineties allegedly he battered

747
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 3: a woman in a movie theater. Oh, excuse me, No,

748
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 3: that happened in twenty twelve.

749
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna say that was more recent, and

750
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 2: there was a sixteen year old so it was a

751
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 2: sexteen year old girl and seventeen year old girls.

752
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: Years again, that.

753
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: Luckiest I've ever been alive, A old star by genius. Wait,

754
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 3: and we just not recognized that I'm smart.

755
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 4: We're gonna get me the gold star to okay, the

756
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:09,720
Speaker 4: smartest after sure, Okay, okay, duly noted, duly noted writing

757
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 4: is Happening twelve.

758
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: He was accused of a lot of accusations. I went

759
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 2: down the rabbit hole on this point. I couldn't sleep

760
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: one night.

761
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 5: What were you saying, Courtney the twenty twelve?

762
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 3: That's not that long ago. He is alleged to have

763
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 3: slipped his hands under the clothes of a woman twenty

764
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 3: eight year old in a movie theater.

765
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so where there's smoke, there's fire, right?

766
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 3: Are we saying?

767
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 6: Fires starting to spread faster?

768
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 3: This less mostly Gilbert.

769
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 5: I think you're very sweet and tenderhearted, but I think

770
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 5: maybe you need to open your eyes. Honey, what a bummer.

771
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 5: There might be real, but there might be something here.

772
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 5: I don't know, But there might be something here. Maybe not,

773
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 5: we'll see.

774
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 2: That's a real tough one to come back from. I

775
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 2: don't know that if you find out your partner is

776
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: a pedophile, no.

777
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 6: Uh huh no no, but then you see these unusual

778
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 6: cases like rex humor, and like the wife is supportive,

779
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 6: you know, all this horrible stuff comes out.

780
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 2: She's right, even when faced with evidence that's well said. Well,

781
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: the mind plays really kooky things on us, so you know,

782
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 2: we want to fill in the blanks sometimes, especially when

783
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 2: you love somebody.

784
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 3: Of course and they've been married with This is a.

785
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: Tough one to come back from.

786
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, but also people, you're you're very right if someone

787
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 3: has whatever their side of the story is, and I

788
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 3: have been guilty. I can think of one relationship in particular,

789
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 3: a person had quite a bit to lie about that

790
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,720
Speaker 3: was very obvious to other people. But everything was explained away.

791
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 3: You know, why do you not this? But why do

792
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 3: you have paint on your shirt? You must have been painting? No, no, no, no, no,

793
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 3: it's in the grocery store. Some other guy. He had

794
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: a little paint. It was nuts. I'm like, oh that

795
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: is nuts.

796
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: And you believe you believe these nutty stories until you

797
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: get into the real world and you get the perspective back,

798
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: and then you see things as they are.

799
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 4: And it's hard for we all watch reality shows because

800
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 4: we're like painting four other times.

801
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 6: Right, that's a good point.

802
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're love them.

803
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: Enough, you're like, this guy is just the klutziist painter,

804
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: you know who knows. Yes, most people would think they

805
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: would get suspicious. And then we're also trained to not

806
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 2: trust our guts. So yeah, listen, everyone, listen up, male

807
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: or female, trust your gut.

808
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 4: That first in stairs, what I think is accurate.

809
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 5: I think that these people, these disgusting, pedophile, you know

810
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 5: whatever people.

811
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 4: I think they're very charming. I think they're manipulative. I

812
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 4: think they get these women like.

813
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 3: They're master manipulators.

814
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,919
Speaker 5: Master manipulators to believe this side of their cube, right

815
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 5: like this, this is who I'm presenting. This is who

816
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 5: I am. I'm an actor, by the way, I'm a

817
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 5: phenomenal actor. Yeah, I played this with who I am.

818
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 4: Men of but in reality, flip the cube or now

819
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 4: this person and that's I really am.

820
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 3: Also in a position of power in all of these

821
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 3: most of these instances, he was the director. That's the

822
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 3: one you listeners, you know that's.

823
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 5: The one you yeah, Hower and right, there's an imbalance there,

824
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 5: and that's what I think, And I think that, you know,

825
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 5: Melissa Gilbert is very likely a victim of his manipulation.

826
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 3: I will say there were seventy five other letters of

827
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,840
Speaker 3: support for the actor that were included in the filing

828
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: for Timothy Buzzfield. That's a lot. That's a lot.

829
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: But remember how Ashton Amer lost so many friends because

830
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: he wrote that infamous letter for Danny Masterson. Danny Masterson

831
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: also accused of sexual assault charges. He was a member

832
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 2: of the Scientology Shirt church also has been convicted.

833
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 3: What do you do?

834
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: I'm curious what would you guys do if? I mean,

835
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 2: this is a pretty specifical lane.

836
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 7: Yeah, I don't think I want to ask the question.

837
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 4: Let's get off, was about to ask an eight eight

838
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 4: question regarding pedophilia. So no longer the smartest in the room.

839
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 3: Already you are a star.

840
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 4: I'm taking it from you.

841
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 5: I'm kidding, but no, I mean, it's what you're saying

842
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 5: is understandable. And you know, I think a lot of

843
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 5: people would give pause if their loved and was accused

844
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 5: of something so horrific, Right, I mean I think anybody would.

845
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 7: But four times, four times, I mean yeah, no, hard no,

846
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 7: first time I'd be like, what.

847
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 6: This probably yeah, right, Second, this is odd?

848
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 3: Third yeah, wait a minute, I mean this is a

849
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 3: pattern right and times and places and you know, over decades. Yeah, half, well, listen,

850
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: stick around because coming up at the top of the hour,

851
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 3: a former TV and was found covered in blood and

852
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 3: we have updates on that. And don't forget. We'd love

853
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 3: to hear from you EIGHTEDA through One Crime or reach

854
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 3: out to us on the talkbacks True Crime Tonight. We're

855
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 3: talking true crime all the time.

856
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

857
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

858
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in.

859
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 3: So listen.

860
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: If you miss any of the last hour of the show,

861
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 2: please do not worry for even a second.

862
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 3: You can catch it right after as a podcast.

863
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 2: And if you want to join us live, do so

864
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 2: eight eight eight three one Crime, or you can always

865
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 2: leave us a talkback thank you for them, by the way,

866
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: keep them coming, or you can always just leave us

867
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: a good old voicemail boom. You'll be on the show

868
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 2: from there.

869
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 3: So Courtney Martin Luther King Junior or doctor as you

870
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 3: have correctly corrected another quote. Our lives begin to end

871
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 3: the day we become silent about things that matter. Oh

872
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 3: say that.

873
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 4: I love that one.

874
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 3: Our lives begin to end the day we become silent

875
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 3: about discuss about things that matter, things that matter. Yeah,

876
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 3: that's that One's really good.

877
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 4: So we shouldn't even though it might be scary, Right,

878
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 4: even though it might be scary, we should always try

879
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 4: to say the right thing and stand up for what's right,

880
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 4: even though it might be scary.

881
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 6: So many of these quotes are so in line with

882
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 6: everything we're seeing on the news and everything right now.

883
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 6: It's just like it's just it's resonating in such an

884
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 6: interesting way what we're going to say.

885
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:52,439
Speaker 2: I was going to say, there's always that other one too.

886
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 2: It's always the right time to do the right thing,

887
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: to do the right thing.

888
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 6: Yes, Yeah, that's great, that's a good one.

889
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, those are really you know, I mean, listen, this

890
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 5: is why he's an icon. This is why he's you know,

891
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 5: so important to our history as a country. It just

892
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 5: because you know that when when somebody is so iconic

893
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 5: like this, you know, the things that they say are

894
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 5: going to stand the test of time. Yeah, and doctor

895
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 5: Martiners King certainly you know, fills that I think.

896
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:22,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

897
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, anyway, shall we move on to we should I'm

898
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 4: getting all sentimental, you know too? Wait, we should be

899
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 4: celebrating doctor Martin Luther King Junior. Right now, what can

900
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 4: we do to bring the mood up? Well, we are

901
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 4: a tough one, but yes, you're all smiles. Come on,

902
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 4: let's do it.

903
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 3: Okay. So this is an update. All right, I'm not

904
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:51,879
Speaker 3: about to bring the mood up. Who way to bring

905
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 3: the mood down?

906
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

907
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 3: I don't have good news, but I do have news, okay.

908
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 3: So this is an update in the case of Angie Mock,

909
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 3: who you may remember. She was a former TV anchor

910
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 3: who was alleged to have stabbed her eighty year old

911
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 3: mother in the bed. That's right, and a court appointed

912
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,080
Speaker 3: clinician has now ruled that she is incompetent to stand

913
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:25,240
Speaker 3: trial for the first degree murder charges that she's facing.

914
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,360
Speaker 3: So this crime happened, and Angie Mock's forty seven years old,

915
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 3: and on Halloween of last year, so a couple of

916
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 3: months ago.

917
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 8: She.

918
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 3: Stabbed her eight year old mother to death in the bed.

919
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:45,440
Speaker 3: She said, So, Angie Mack is a documented history of

920
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: really serious mental health issues. This includes schizo effective disorder, delusions, depression,

921
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 3: and everything is paused criminally in the court. And Angie

922
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 3: Mock is undergoing further psychiatric evaluations and treatment. Very similar

923
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 3: to Nick Reiner.

924
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 4: We were similar just about to say, yeah, we should

925
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 4: just really be noticing what the differences are just based

926
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 4: on jurisdiction alone, state to state.

927
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 3: It's such a very thing.

928
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: And also is there a different stigma or lack of

929
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 2: a stigma if it's a male killer versus a female killer.

930
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: So a daughter who kills her mother, which, by the way,

931
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: they were roommates, if I'm remembering this correctly, and you know,

932
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 2: she was a really stand up doing a great job

933
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: as a newscaster, and I believe had hit some kind

934
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: of harder times, but they live together, and you know,

935
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: stamping your own mother to death, like, there has to

936
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 2: be mental illness in play. And now we're hearing that

937
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: again with Nick Reiner that apparently he had switched up

938
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 2: his medication. He wasn't liking the way gain that was

939
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 2: coming off of the drugs that he had been taking

940
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,320
Speaker 2: for a long time time, and had to urge doctors

941
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,680
Speaker 2: to please switch his his like, you know, whatever cocktail

942
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: of meds are, because he didn't like the way either

943
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 2: he looked or felt, and that maybe that change in medication, allegedly, allegedly,

944
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: allegedly is what triggered this murderous event.

945
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 3: I think it's possible, absolutely, if you have a complete

946
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 3: imbalance of your brain, which obviously drives our body and

947
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 3: our actions. You know, it's just completely you can literally

948
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: be living in a difference. It's very serious.

949
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 4: It's very serious.

950
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 3: For sure.

951
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 4: You have to stay on your medication, you know, and

952
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 4: once you get stabilized, it's it's hard to reget, you know,

953
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 4: restart over and get restabilized.

954
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: You know, it takes a long time in and out

955
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 3: of the system. So just briefly to remind you guys

956
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 3: of the Angie Mack story. So she was found right

957
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 3: eon as the murder happened. Really, police found her on

958
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 3: the street. She was covered in blood, she had cuts

959
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 3: in her hands and from jump. She was giving conflicting

960
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: accounts that didn't make sense. She was saying it was

961
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 3: self defense against her eighty year old mother. It was

962
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 3: protection from the devil. My mother attacked me, and started

963
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 3: saying stuff that kind of just showed a little break

964
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:32,200
Speaker 3: from reality really, and she was arrested, treated, booked, and

965
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: held under a million dollar bond. So she now is

966
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 3: in a state psychiatric hospital, per what the judge ruled,

967
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 3: just the end of last week. And then it was

968
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: a thing that I didn't I didn't realize it's different.

969
00:53:54,320 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 3: There's a distinction between incompetence and inanity as reason to

970
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,879
Speaker 3: be not guilty. So in competence to stand trial means

971
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:12,959
Speaker 3: the person they cannot participate in the trial. Like it's temporary, right, yes,

972
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 3: and we can get to that. It is just yeah,

973
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 3: but it's proved. That's it.

974
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 4: It's on pause, nothing decided because you're getting leukemia treatments

975
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 4: or because you're mentally and competent or you're mentally mentally okay, yeah,

976
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,280
Speaker 4: so you may not know that you're in a courtroom.

977
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: That might not be the reality that your brain is

978
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 3: telling you. So it has nothing to do with did

979
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 3: you do or not do the crime. It's just you

980
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 3: cannot participate in a trial not guilty for reason of insanity.

981
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,400
Speaker 3: That is a verdict, criminal verdict on the mental state

982
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 3: at the time of the crime, which can lead to

983
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 3: a different outcome.

984
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,240
Speaker 2: So which also there's a drug issue, there's a mental

985
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: health issue or illness in both of these cases, Nick Reiner,

986
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: and in this case as well, and then also is

987
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: meth involved? Are there specific drugs that are being brought

988
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: into the equation? Does that lend itself to insanity?

989
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 6: I think no, right, I haven't heard any drug in

990
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 6: Angie's case, is there. I don't think we've read any

991
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 6: link with that, but maybe with.

992
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 4: Maybe Reiner, right, Yeah, we don't know. Yeah, only Nick

993
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 4: Reiner has the drug part, right, right.

994
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 5: I mean, I think a lot of us are assuming

995
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 5: that there's some kind of self treatment kind of happening

996
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 5: with some maybe some substances.

997
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 4: I don't know what those drugs would be. I'm assuming

998
00:55:41,200 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 4: it's like heroin or meth or something. I don't know

999
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 4: anything about drugs. I've like hardly ever done anything in

1000
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 4: my life, you know, So I don't know. I'm not certain,

1001
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 4: but I think it's either like some sort of meth

1002
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 4: induced freak out or something along those lines.

1003
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: But Nick Reiner, he was atuffany mentioned earlier. His medication

1004
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 3: did change just what a month prior, So that can

1005
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 3: be I mean, it can be earth shattering, and if it's.

1006
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 5: Not settled in his body, he could have been self

1007
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 5: medicating with those drugs, right.

1008
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 3: And then last thing, just to answer your question from

1009
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: earlier body, So when you are found and competent, is

1010
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 3: it is temporary unless it's not. So basically you're put

1011
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 3: in a hospital. The goal is to get you back

1012
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:33,440
Speaker 3: to a place where you can actually understand the charges

1013
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 3: and a system lawyer in your own defense. The treatment

1014
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,400
Speaker 3: is usually for a set period, often up to fifteen months.

1015
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 3: It does to your earlier point Stephanie, vary by state,

1016
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,720
Speaker 3: and then it then it depends. If you found competent,

1017
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 3: you go to trial and to replate, and if it's

1018
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 3: unresolvable persons likely to become the court made dismiss charges

1019
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 3: altogether and give an extended commitment.

1020
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: I would always think everybody's faking it, which I know

1021
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: is terrible, but like, don't you think they're all just

1022
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 2: like committing to the insanity bit?

1023
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 3: Maybe not if you've got twenty years of history with

1024
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 3: doctors or you know, do you guys remember.

1025
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:17,919
Speaker 5: The case that we were covering and now the names

1026
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 5: escapes me. The guy was like the art fraud what

1027
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 5: was his name?

1028
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 3: I know exactly that he was doing the Andy Warhols.

1029
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 4: Yeah him, he was.

1030
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 5: He was incompetent for Remember, they sent him to a

1031
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 5: home or a mental treatment facility for a few weeks

1032
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 5: and then they deemed him competent again. Right, that's why

1033
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 5: Brian Walls, yes, thank you, Gosh, your name escaped me

1034
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 5: for a minute.

1035
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 2: I don't remember that. Oh, Brian Walsh went to a

1036
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: yep before the trial began. They said that he had

1037
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: to go.

1038
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, he was there for like two weeks and then

1039
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:52,360
Speaker 5: they said, okay, he's competent now.

1040
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 4: So I was like, oh, okay.

1041
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 3: She was so upset by the death of his wife

1042
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 3: at the time.

1043
00:57:57,400 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 4: Right, okay, sure, but yeah, interesting. Interesting.

1044
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,240
Speaker 5: This is true crime tonight on iHeartRadio, Thank you Courtney,

1045
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 5: where we're talking true crime all the time. We were

1046
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 5: just talking about the newscaster Angie Mock, who was accused

1047
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 5: of killing her mother. And now we're going to move

1048
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 5: into a new case.

1049
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 4: Not a new case.

1050
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 5: It's an old case that we're going to be talking

1051
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 5: about with some new breath in it. Let's let's say that.

1052
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 5: So here's my Martin Luther King quote to go along

1053
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 5: with this case. This is going to be about the

1054
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 5: Ellen Greenberg case. So my quote is from Martin Luther King,

1055
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 5: doctor Martin Luther King, Jr. And it's justice too long delayed,

1056
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 5: is justice denied? And I think that's really appropriate.

1057
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 2: And it's sometimes really hard to understand that, like the

1058
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 2: wheels of justice, sometimes we're so incredibly slow.

1059
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, So, federal prosecutors have requested documents related to the

1060
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 5: handling of twenty seven year old teacher Ellen Greenberg's twenty

1061
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 5: eleven death in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, focusing on potential misconduct by

1062
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 5: local authorities. Ellen Greenberg's parents are hailing this federal probe

1063
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 5: of criminal corruption in their daughter's death. They say they

1064
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,680
Speaker 5: are so happy. Ellen Greenberg was found dead in her

1065
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 5: Philadelphia apartment in January twenty eleven with over twenty stab wounds,

1066
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 5: initially ruled a homicide right but later reclassified as suicide,

1067
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:25,640
Speaker 5: a determination her parents and many many other experts have

1068
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:30,120
Speaker 5: long contested. Her family has pursued lawsuits and independent reviews

1069
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 5: for over a decade, with federal authorities are now examining

1070
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 5: potential corruption or mishandling. And so I really want people

1071
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 5: to understand this. The really important thing about this because

1072
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 5: the headlines are very sexy, right, our mines are very sexy.

1073
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 4: But this federal review focuses on whether or not the

1074
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 4: authorities mismanaged or engaged in wrongdoing. It's not overturning overturning

1075
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 4: the suicide ruling.

1076
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 3: Okay.

1077
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 5: Now, if they find that there was ruption or mishandling

1078
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 5: or whatnot, they might reopen the investigation.

1079
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 4: They would have to how can they say that it

1080
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 4: was suicide if for some reason the ingregation was handled properly.

1081
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 3: I look at like this as like a ladder.

1082
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 5: It's a step I was gonna step right, just step

1083
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 5: in the wrong, right, I believe it's a yeah.

1084
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 4: I just don't want people to get like two, Oh,

1085
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 4: they're gonna.

1086
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 6: Overturn reels in the case, they're gonna.

1087
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 4: Rest Sam, and this is all gonna happen. But this

1088
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 4: is like the first little wrong in that ladder.

1089
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 5: Right, Okay, So right, So, for those who aren't familiar,

1090
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 5: when when the early autopsy in twenty eleven, they noted

1091
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 5: there were twenty stab wounds and eleven bruises. Okay, So

1092
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 5: in later reviews in twenty twenty four and twenty twenty five,

1093
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 5: they documented twenty three stab wounds and thirty one bruises,

1094
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 5: so they found much more later.

1095
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 4: So there's already.

1096
01:00:55,600 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 5: Inconsistencies, right, there's already in consistencies. The Chief Medical Samon

1097
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 5: or doctor Lindsay Simon, reaffirmed suicide in twenty twenty five,

1098
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 5: concluding that Ellen Greenberg could have in self inflicted those injuries.

1099
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 4: And that's been very controversial. There was psych shops.

1100
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 3: It's controversial.

1101
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 6: Well, I was going to add for people like because

1102
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 6: weren't some of the stab wounds in the back area

1103
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 6: hard to reach?

1104
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 5: They were like in her in the back of her

1105
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 5: neck even which is and her back of course, you know,

1106
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:26,360
Speaker 5: go ahead.

1107
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:31,000
Speaker 3: Additionally, she had bruising. Ellen Greenberg had bruising in different

1108
01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 3: stages of recovery, which shows that over the course of time,

1109
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,919
Speaker 3: Like he didn't bump into ten things in one day

1110
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 3: in many instances.

1111
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 2: Right, No, But instead even investigators looked at that and

1112
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,160
Speaker 2: you were like, or she was forever bumping into.

1113
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 3: Things apparently.

1114
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 4: Like yeah, it's maddening, it's maddening.

1115
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 5: Right, So there was no suicide note or any evidence

1116
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 5: of suicidal intense. But Ellen Greenberg had anxiety and she

1117
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 5: was on medication seeking a psychiatric Okay, well, that doesn't

1118
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 5: mean anything because half of America has an anxiety.

1119
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 3: I was just about to say that's a big.

1120
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 4: Club, right.

1121
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 5: So, her fiance, Sam Goldberg has never been accused of

1122
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 5: any wrongdoing and has largely remained silent. Her family, Ellen

1123
01:02:17,360 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 5: Greenbrik's family, they're very lovely and they filed lawsuits in

1124
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 5: twenty nineteen and twenty twenty two alleging that this investigation

1125
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 5: was mishandled. And they did settle and you know, in

1126
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 5: for six hundred fifty thousand dollars and case review agreement.

1127
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 4: So they did review the case. That's why the.

1128
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 5: Chief Medical Examiner, doctor Lindsay Simon, in twenty twenty five

1129
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 5: redid this autopsy review and concluded there were more bruises

1130
01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,640
Speaker 5: and more stabbing and whatnot found. So, yeah, we'll have

1131
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 5: to stand watch on this and see what happens coming

1132
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 5: up next. What does pleading the fifth really mean? And

1133
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 5: where your rights begin and end when protests turned into

1134
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:00,919
Speaker 5: arrest True Gun Tonight.

1135
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1136
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lydecker here with

1137
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and body move in. So, ladies, can you

1138
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 2: believe it's already Monday. It's over and tomorrow is Tuesday already.

1139
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 3: That's exciting.

1140
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 4: No, that is exciting, but yeah, Monday, the worst Mondays are.

1141
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 3: Just a long Saturday and a half. Got a case of.

1142
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,320
Speaker 5: The Yeah, can I work in a casino? You know,

1143
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 5: I work in the casino business, and so we don't

1144
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 5: we don't ever get the holidays.

1145
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 3: So I had to work today. Not fun like double

1146
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 3: it's like, I mean, any service or you know, any restaurant,

1147
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 3: any working exactly, just took the.

1148
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,280
Speaker 5: Days off, right, So boo boo.

1149
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 3: But I like that. It's almost Tuesday now, so you

1150
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,360
Speaker 3: can look towards you. Let's go to talk back.

1151
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 4: All right.

1152
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:04,120
Speaker 8: Hey, guys, this is Sharon and Tampa. I've listened to

1153
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 8: all the episodes. Body, I love you, You're my girl.

1154
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,360
Speaker 8: I just wanted to share that. Recently, it's been reported

1155
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 8: that a clerical error reopened the divorce case of Monique

1156
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 8: Tepe and her ex husband just months before he was

1157
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 8: accused of killing her and her husband, Spencer, and the

1158
01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 8: court officials later confirmed the docket change was a mistake.

1159
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,280
Speaker 8: But it's definitely an eerie development and maybe something that

1160
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 8: did set them up. Thanks so much. Love you guys.

1161
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 4: Oh love you too, my girl.

1162
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: So it could have also set her off and that

1163
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:38,480
Speaker 2: could have caused communication. Sure, so this is a detail

1164
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 2: that is being reported on. It's a tough one though,

1165
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: so we were sort of treading on that for tomorrow.

1166
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 4: But yeah, we are here, we are right.

1167
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 5: So yeah, this clerical error briefly reopened in the divorce

1168
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 5: case of Monique Teppe and her ex husband Michael McKee.

1169
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 5: And this happened just a couple of months before the

1170
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 5: murder in mid twenty twenty five, and this was years

1171
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:02,960
Speaker 5: after they were leavingly divorced in twenty seventeen. And it

1172
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,600
Speaker 5: showed what the error was. It showed a new hearing

1173
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,439
Speaker 5: and trial date that was not real.

1174
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:10,040
Speaker 3: That's it.

1175
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 4: So there was like a scheduled hearing.

1176
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:13,920
Speaker 3: For their just pure accidents.

1177
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 5: Yeah right, So court officials later confirmed it was simply

1178
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 5: a mistake on the court docket. For those unfamiliar, Michael McKee,

1179
01:05:22,600 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 5: he's thirty nine years old and he has been charged

1180
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 5: in the murder of Monique and Spencer Tepe after he

1181
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 5: allegedly snuck into their Columbus home on December thirtieth and

1182
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 5: shot them dead in their bedroom, leaving their two children,

1183
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 5: ages four and one, unharmed in another room. So yeah,

1184
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 5: after his arrest, he did not give a statement to

1185
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:44,760
Speaker 5: police about the killings.

1186
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 4: And that is text book fifth Amendment right.

1187
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,800
Speaker 5: Once in custody, a suspect has the right not to

1188
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,120
Speaker 5: answer questions that could incriminate them. And then you know,

1189
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 5: the police can arrest you with probable cause, but they

1190
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 5: cannot compel a suspect to explain themselves. Silence cannot legally

1191
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 5: be used as evidence of guilt. And I'm gonna go

1192
01:06:06,400 --> 01:06:08,200
Speaker 5: right into my mlkay quote, Can I do it?

1193
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 3: Yes?

1194
01:06:09,080 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 4: All right? This is my favorite one.

1195
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 3: I saved it for.

1196
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 2: The I saved it for the life, and I hear

1197
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 2: I was making a giggle about trying to shake up

1198
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,400
Speaker 2: the quotes, but they were so well plotted as to

1199
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 2: your stories.

1200
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:26,120
Speaker 5: This No, this one is not well plotted as much.

1201
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 5: But it's timely, okay. So in the end we will

1202
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 5: remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence

1203
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 5: of our friends.

1204
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 3: Right.

1205
01:06:37,000 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 4: It's one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites,

1206
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 4: and it speaks to you know, the profound disappointment in

1207
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 4: damage caused by the inaction of those who should be allies.

1208
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 4: That's what it That's what it means.

1209
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 2: Is action's a crime in and of itself?

1210
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 3: Right it?

1211
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 4: Or is it?

1212
01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 5: Well, we're learning with you it might be with the

1213
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 5: Uvaldi trial, inaction it might be a crime.

1214
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,720
Speaker 4: Right. So I wanted to get into the Fifth Amendment.

1215
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 5: You know, we're going to be doing this series where

1216
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 5: we're kind of talking about the Constitution and how they

1217
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 5: relate to cases that we all kind of are interested in.

1218
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:09,439
Speaker 3: Right.

1219
01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:11,880
Speaker 5: So the Fifth Amendment is something we hear about a

1220
01:07:11,880 --> 01:07:15,000
Speaker 5: lot in true crime, right, and it's fifth Yeah, I

1221
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:17,880
Speaker 5: plead the fifth right, double jeopardy, you know, those are

1222
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:21,280
Speaker 5: all the Fifth Amendment. It exists because history has showed

1223
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 5: us that governments will absolutely and by governments, I mean

1224
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 5: you know, like the police Department and you know, the

1225
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 5: DA and whatnot. You know, when our founding fathers are

1226
01:07:30,400 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 5: creating this document, they were looking at the lens of

1227
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 5: history that they have experienced and they were like, never again.

1228
01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 4: Right.

1229
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 5: So the Fifth Amendment exists because history has showed us

1230
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 5: that governments will absolutely course threaten and torture people into

1231
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 5: confessions if they're allowed to, and the Constitution.

1232
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 4: Said not today.

1233
01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 3: That's what the Fifth Amendment is okay.

1234
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 5: So here's some cases that I thought were interesting that

1235
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 5: we could talk about where the Fifth Amendment was invoked.

1236
01:07:58,040 --> 01:07:58,320
Speaker 3: Okay.

1237
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 5: Oh, it all starts with Miranda via Arizona. And this

1238
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 5: is only in nineteen sixty six. This is not like

1239
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 5: ancient history.

1240
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 3: Okay.

1241
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 5: Ernesto Miranda was arrested for kidnapping and rape. He confessed

1242
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 5: after two hours, after two hour interrogation, without being informed

1243
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,760
Speaker 5: that he had the right to remain silent. It went

1244
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 5: all the way to the Supreme Court and they overturned

1245
01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 5: his conviction, ruling that suspects must be informed of their

1246
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 5: Miranda rights before custodial interrogation. So that's why it's called

1247
01:08:31,360 --> 01:08:35,719
Speaker 5: Miranda rights. It's because of Ernesto Miranda, a convicted rapist

1248
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 5: and killer, while they overturned it.

1249
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 2: But get this, this is so crazy. Guilty at the time,

1250
01:08:41,200 --> 01:08:43,599
Speaker 2: he was just confessing. The whole time he was.

1251
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 4: Confessed was guilty, Well, he confessed that he was guilty.

1252
01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,600
Speaker 4: Was he guilty? I don't know, but he confessed that

1253
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 4: he was, but he didn't he wasn't read his rights,

1254
01:08:52,280 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 4: and the Supreme Court was like, he can't do that.

1255
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:56,120
Speaker 4: And so now they call it Miranda rights.

1256
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 3: Where is he?

1257
01:08:57,120 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 4: Now?

1258
01:08:57,920 --> 01:08:58,959
Speaker 3: Get this, dude?

1259
01:08:59,000 --> 01:08:59,879
Speaker 4: This is wild?

1260
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:00,759
Speaker 3: Okay.

1261
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,479
Speaker 5: Ten years later, Okay, the man whose case established the

1262
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 5: Miranda rights, Ernesto Miranda, was himself murdered in a bar fight.

1263
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 5: Ten years later. Okay, oh my, the person suspected of

1264
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 5: providing the weapon invoked his Fifth Amendment rights and refused

1265
01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:24,799
Speaker 5: to talk to police, and he was subsequently released without charges.

1266
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 5: You are I'm not kidding.

1267
01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 3: A lot of full circle happened. Yeah, tonight. What's going on?

1268
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 4: Are we?

1269
01:09:33,680 --> 01:09:33,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1270
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 4: Isn't that crazy?

1271
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 3: We're jumping timelines.

1272
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 4: So famously the O. J.

1273
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 5: Simpson case, You guys, the O JSON there's two Fifth

1274
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:45,920
Speaker 5: Amendment issues here with OJ Simpson. So, in one of

1275
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,879
Speaker 5: the trial's most dramatic moments, the prosecution star witness detective

1276
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:56,200
Speaker 5: Mark Furman, remember him, vocal yeah, who doesn't right? He

1277
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 5: and votd his Fifth Amendment rights.

1278
01:09:57,960 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 4: Okay.

1279
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:00,400
Speaker 5: When he was called back to the state and by

1280
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:04,280
Speaker 5: the defense by OJ's lawyers, he refused to answer questions

1281
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 5: about whether he was quote unquote completely truthful in his

1282
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 5: testimony or if he had planted or manufactured evidence.

1283
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 4: So when they said, Mark Furrman, did you plant evidence?

1284
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 4: I plead the fifth, which was the equivalent of saying, yes, well,

1285
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:21,920
Speaker 4: you can't do that. Though you can't you know.

1286
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:23,599
Speaker 3: What did we did?

1287
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 2: He was also being accused of epic amounts of racism,

1288
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 2: and when he said I plead the fifth, it's a

1289
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 2: way of saying I'm going to keep myself out of

1290
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:37,599
Speaker 2: trouble by saying nothing.

1291
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:40,439
Speaker 5: So yeah, and you're you know what you're saying, Steph

1292
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 5: rings true because legal analysts noted that this played a

1293
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:46,280
Speaker 5: super major role in Simpson O. J.

1294
01:10:46,360 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 3: Simpson's eventual acquittal.

1295
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 5: You know, he was acquitted in nineteen ninety five and

1296
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 5: murdering Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. Right well, in

1297
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,680
Speaker 5: two thousand and seven, he wrote a book, right and

1298
01:10:57,720 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 5: it was called If I Did It Right? And the

1299
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:03,600
Speaker 5: book was like a hypothetic, you know, hypothetical.

1300
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 4: Why this book? Okay, said oj write this down.

1301
01:11:05,960 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 5: I know, but this is where this is where something

1302
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 5: else with the Fifth Amendment comes in. Oh okay, So

1303
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 5: this book If I Did It And it was like

1304
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 5: a lot of people viewed it as a confession. He

1305
01:11:15,920 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 5: made incriminating statements to friends and associates. But guess what

1306
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 5: double jeopardy is part of the Fifth Amendment, he could

1307
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 5: not be retried because the part of the Fifth Amendment says,

1308
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:30,839
Speaker 5: nor shall any person be subject for the same offense

1309
01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 5: to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb.

1310
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:38,360
Speaker 5: So OJ should have the Fifth Amendment on his gravestone.

1311
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 2: Right, Well, but you know we even again, OJ, why

1312
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 2: are we, you know, grading on a curve here and

1313
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 2: testing the waters, like why would OJ go out you

1314
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 2: got away with murder allegedly allegedly in the nerve the

1315
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,160
Speaker 2: nerve of this guy to then go write an allegedly

1316
01:11:55,200 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 2: book that has some crossover to what things we know

1317
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:01,760
Speaker 2: to be fact, and then also throwing a couple of

1318
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:05,080
Speaker 2: tidbits because he knows about double jeopardy, right.

1319
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, So then in two thousand and five, do

1320
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 5: you guys know who Mark McGuire is. He's like a

1321
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 5: super He was my brother's famous. Yeah, my brother loved

1322
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 5: Mark McGuire. He played for the Oakland A's. Well, he

1323
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 5: was called in front of a House committee, the House

1324
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 5: committee in Congress, and they were investigating steroid use in

1325
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:29,759
Speaker 5: professional baseball and they were questioning him and he pled

1326
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:32,360
Speaker 5: the Fifth So the only reason I pulled that case

1327
01:12:32,439 --> 01:12:34,799
Speaker 5: is because it involved something outside of a courtroom.

1328
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:36,920
Speaker 4: This was congress, so this.

1329
01:12:36,760 --> 01:12:40,639
Speaker 2: Is but was that interpreted from an optics perspective at

1330
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:42,920
Speaker 2: the time as it was. I don't want to say

1331
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:45,799
Speaker 2: it would be put me into jeopardy.

1332
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:50,640
Speaker 5: But there are times when it's interpreted interpretated. Is that

1333
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 5: a word interpreted.

1334
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:54,680
Speaker 3: Does make it up?

1335
01:12:54,680 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 9: Words are rare interpretated though, is kind of George Zimmerman.

1336
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 9: George Zimmerman was a used of killing Trayvon Martin, right,

1337
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,600
Speaker 9: and he exercised his fit the moendment right not to

1338
01:13:05,680 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 9: testify during his trial for the death of Trayvon Martin,

1339
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 9: and by remaining silent, he avoided cross examination, right.

1340
01:13:13,880 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 5: And on cross it might have been, you know, it

1341
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:18,439
Speaker 5: might have come out. He might have gotten angry or

1342
01:13:18,479 --> 01:13:21,559
Speaker 5: emotional and sens something he shouldn't have said. Right, And

1343
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 5: ultimately he was acquitted of that murder, saying that it

1344
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:25,639
Speaker 5: was self defense.

1345
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 3: Right, he had he stood his ground?

1346
01:13:28,439 --> 01:13:29,720
Speaker 4: Had he stood his ground? Right?

1347
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,719
Speaker 5: So yeah, one of the key rights is to refuse

1348
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:35,639
Speaker 5: to answer questions that could be incriminate yourself, commonly called

1349
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:37,600
Speaker 5: pleading the fifth and those are a lot of the

1350
01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:41,840
Speaker 5: cases that you know and you know invoke that. Additionally,

1351
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 5: Miranda rights we talked about you have to warn the

1352
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 5: suspects of the right to remain silent. It also protects

1353
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 5: you against double jeopardy. We discussed that with OJ and

1354
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 5: ensures fair compensation in imminent domain cases.

1355
01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:57,720
Speaker 3: Public perception ken.

1356
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 5: Misinter pleading the fifth as a sign of guilt, media politics,

1357
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 5: or civil matters, even though legally it's supposed to be neutral.

1358
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like if your kid is missing and just

1359
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: recently covered and you're not answering, you're pleading the fifth,

1360
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what planet are you on? Your kid

1361
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,920
Speaker 2: is missing and you might have some critical information to

1362
01:14:18,000 --> 01:14:19,639
Speaker 2: let us find them safely.

1363
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 5: Right, my goodness, So this whole, this whole, I'm sorry, Courtney, please,

1364
01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 5: Oh I was gonna say, and but this is also

1365
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:29,519
Speaker 5: so present in the Luigi Manji own case.

1366
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 3: Sure the fascin the Miranda rights were not read in

1367
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:36,120
Speaker 3: the order in which it should have been, and the

1368
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:37,519
Speaker 3: whole You.

1369
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:42,719
Speaker 2: Know, it sounds like since Miranda himself was an accused

1370
01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:44,360
Speaker 2: rapist who is now set free.

1371
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 5: Right And the only reason I haven't I didn't bring

1372
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 5: up Luigi in this like these examples is because the

1373
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,800
Speaker 5: trial hasn't played out yet, correct, And I don't know

1374
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 5: what the outcome is going to be, so I wanted

1375
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 5: to get sometimes where like you know, it worked or

1376
01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 5: it worked against them, like with Luck Furrman. So even

1377
01:14:59,600 --> 01:15:02,080
Speaker 5: as a w witness you can you don't have to

1378
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 5: be accused of anything. Isn't Even as a witness, you

1379
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:05,679
Speaker 5: can pleade the fifth.

1380
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:09,200
Speaker 4: And also I just wonder if you're married to the defendant,

1381
01:15:09,320 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 4: Like doesn't that give you also the ability to plead

1382
01:15:12,320 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 4: the fifth on behalf of a you spouse.

1383
01:15:15,040 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 5: Right, you don't have to testify against your spouse, correct,

1384
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,960
Speaker 5: but you can. It's not like you can't. You can,

1385
01:15:21,439 --> 01:15:24,120
Speaker 5: you just don't have to. You're not compelled to testify

1386
01:15:24,120 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 5: against your spouse. I don't need amendment that is. Actually

1387
01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 5: i'd be curious. I actually would love to look into that.

1388
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,519
Speaker 5: I see, like what prompted that to become a thing?

1389
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,200
Speaker 3: You know what? That's interesting because I have no idea

1390
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 3: that a notebook.

1391
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm making a note of that one. The other

1392
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 6: one that I'm fascinated by is the double jeopardy. I

1393
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,960
Speaker 6: would love to know what case prompted that one as well,

1394
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:44,880
Speaker 6: or what brought that. But I'm going to make a

1395
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 6: note of.

1396
01:15:45,600 --> 01:15:50,080
Speaker 5: Well, I mean these were created when the country was founded.

1397
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:51,840
Speaker 5: So I don't know, there's got to be a case

1398
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 5: in England, right that this came from.

1399
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 3: I'm just not sure, Like which one. Jeopardy was a

1400
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 3: great movie with Ashley Judge Juicy. If you want to

1401
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,840
Speaker 3: see that movie from Yesteryear. Yeah, I have never seen it.

1402
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 6: Oh you'd love it.

1403
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,559
Speaker 4: You It will explain double Jeopardy to you.

1404
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 6: Right.

1405
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 5: So there's another part of this that we kind of

1406
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:16,000
Speaker 5: wanted to go into, and it's like, you know, to

1407
01:16:16,080 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 5: be careful while you're out there and you're protesting and whatnot,

1408
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 5: and you know, when you're interacting with the police, remain calm,

1409
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 5: stay polite, keep your hands visible, you know, don't be

1410
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:26,479
Speaker 5: put in your hands. I know it's very cold in

1411
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 5: some places, but keep your hands visible. Do not lie,

1412
01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 5: and always assume you're being recorded. Do not touch officers,

1413
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 5: don't touch equipment, don't touch any of the dogs. Stay

1414
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 5: in groups when possible. After interactions with the police, document

1415
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 5: the officers' names, their badge numbers, and your you know,

1416
01:16:45,880 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 5: your account of what happened, and you know, be as

1417
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 5: polite as possible, right, Like, just try to be.

1418
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 4: I know it's difficult, but please.

1419
01:16:53,360 --> 01:16:56,120
Speaker 2: Try like, what is like the difference between a protest

1420
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 2: and not a protest that peaceful?

1421
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 4: Like I'm just so curious. No, that's a really good question.

1422
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:02,320
Speaker 3: The rules here.

1423
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:05,599
Speaker 4: I don't like protests where they destroy property and whatnot.

1424
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 3: But often.

1425
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:11,880
Speaker 5: There's often agitators that you know, you know, that's a

1426
01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:12,439
Speaker 5: real thing.

1427
01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 4: Agent provocateurs that come in and whatnot. We saw that.

1428
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 5: We've seen that a lot, not many times. So it's

1429
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 5: it's hard to cast you know, a bad slate on

1430
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:27,760
Speaker 5: a whole protest because you just don't know if there's

1431
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 5: agent provocateurs in the crowd.

1432
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 2: You just don't, right, who are like throwing you know,

1433
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:36,280
Speaker 2: bottles around trying to create a little bit mayhem so

1434
01:17:36,360 --> 01:17:39,360
Speaker 2: that a fight breaks out right and and.

1435
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 5: In right, if you see somebody get hurt, even if

1436
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 5: they're on quote unquote the wrong side, try to get

1437
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:48,400
Speaker 5: the medical attention. I watched this weekend a guy walk

1438
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 5: around a parking garage with his blood coming out of

1439
01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:53,640
Speaker 5: his head and nobody was offering a medical and.

1440
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 3: He's like, the guy, some help, be a humans.

1441
01:17:57,280 --> 01:17:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, it sends everybody.

1442
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, we have to take it down a notch. We do.

1443
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 4: Like, I totally agree. I totally agree.

1444
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 5: Stay aware of your surroundings, walk, don't run in crowds,

1445
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 5: stay in groups, and maintain distance from counter protesters. You

1446
01:18:10,479 --> 01:18:13,599
Speaker 5: don't want to agitate things right you don't want to listen.

1447
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 5: Everybody needs a breath right now, you know.

1448
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 3: And also in crowds even you know it's it's tense

1449
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:24,439
Speaker 3: enough by ourselves, but then there's obviously the swell of

1450
01:18:24,479 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 3: being with other people that just instantly amps.

1451
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,840
Speaker 5: And from a true grind perspective, remember DNA can be

1452
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 5: collected from bottles, cigarettes and other items.

1453
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:40,400
Speaker 4: To also surveillance happening on your cell phones.

1454
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 3: Is that accurate?

1455
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 4: Yes, of course.

1456
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 3: Yes.

1457
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,840
Speaker 5: Well we're closing the night with you final talkbacks, your

1458
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:49,080
Speaker 5: theories and what you want us digging into next.

1459
01:18:49,160 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 2: Keep it right here at your crun tonight. Welcome back

1460
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:04,599
Speaker 2: to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true crime

1461
01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 2: all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with Courtney Armstrong,

1462
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,760
Speaker 2: Body Moving, and we have a talkback from you.

1463
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 3: Hi, true Crime tonight. What are you at?

1464
01:19:15,360 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 4: Very disappointed to hear all the reels of dogs picking

1465
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:19,559
Speaker 4: their owner or.

1466
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,800
Speaker 7: AI, oh I got to do because I watched the documentary.

1467
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:24,799
Speaker 3: I'm service dogs.

1468
01:19:25,520 --> 01:19:28,560
Speaker 1: And this is actually a thing in that documentary.

1469
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 3: The service dogs do have to pick their.

1470
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 6: Owner and they are sitting around in a circle like that,

1471
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 6: so hope is not lost.

1472
01:19:38,240 --> 01:19:39,080
Speaker 3: So it's based.

1473
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:42,360
Speaker 6: Okay, that makes me feel little better.

1474
01:19:42,400 --> 01:19:45,040
Speaker 4: It feels a little better because it's so cute. And

1475
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:49,600
Speaker 4: what's cuter the animal finding their owner or theowns reaction.

1476
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 3: I don't know if I saw the same documentary as you,

1477
01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:56,280
Speaker 3: but it was on the same topic. It was just

1478
01:19:56,360 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 3: service dogs, and it was so you They start so

1479
01:20:01,600 --> 01:20:03,880
Speaker 3: young and when they're just in the litter of like

1480
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:06,800
Speaker 3: who's rambunctious and you see him do the test and

1481
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:08,800
Speaker 3: it's like, Okay, this guy is going to be a

1482
01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 3: guy who's like climbing mountains because he's teething, and this

1483
01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:15,920
Speaker 3: guy is going to be really good for someone, you

1484
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,240
Speaker 3: know who has medical needs and they need to be

1485
01:20:18,479 --> 01:20:24,080
Speaker 3: so calm. And it was the coolest documentary.

1486
01:20:24,120 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 4: Do you remember what the name of it was?

1487
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 3: No, let me try and find I think you'd love it,

1488
01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 3: Like I'll tell you, just want to make good. One

1489
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:35,640
Speaker 3: sort of test that they go to is go to

1490
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 3: a fair, which we were just talking about freak go

1491
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 3: to a fair it's noisy, they're screaming, they're this, and

1492
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 3: how does the dog ract?

1493
01:20:44,720 --> 01:20:45,120
Speaker 7: Mmmm?

1494
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:51,880
Speaker 5: Like are they capable of following focusing on their.

1495
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:55,320
Speaker 3: Person or not? And if not, that's okay, go to

1496
01:20:55,360 --> 01:20:57,680
Speaker 3: another teacher and do some other good. It's such a

1497
01:20:57,720 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 3: good Let.

1498
01:20:58,040 --> 01:20:58,599
Speaker 10: Me find the name.

1499
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 6: I would love to see that one.

1500
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 3: It's so cute.

1501
01:21:02,120 --> 01:21:04,040
Speaker 5: Well, you know it would be great, you know, I

1502
01:21:04,040 --> 01:21:06,599
Speaker 5: bet you if an animal shelter had like an event

1503
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:10,599
Speaker 5: where people came and sat in a circle, everyone would

1504
01:21:10,680 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 5: come because they all want to be part of this,

1505
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:15,040
Speaker 5: you know, making this a reality.

1506
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:18,160
Speaker 3: I think I think it interesting.

1507
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:18,920
Speaker 5: Cry.

1508
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:20,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very beautiful.

1509
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 6: I was very I told them last night I still

1510
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,160
Speaker 6: haven't seen it. I'm going to do it tonight. I

1511
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:25,919
Speaker 6: need to watch.

1512
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,240
Speaker 3: I did.

1513
01:21:30,360 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 6: I had to watch another show because I'm catching up,

1514
01:21:33,920 --> 01:21:37,080
Speaker 6: but it's on my list. But that's one thing about

1515
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 6: service dogs. And maybe I shouldn't say this out loud,

1516
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:42,320
Speaker 6: but sometimes I've been on flights and places where I

1517
01:21:42,439 --> 01:21:43,920
Speaker 6: questioned people's service.

1518
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 3: Okay, don't get me started.

1519
01:21:45,920 --> 01:21:48,920
Speaker 6: And I'm not the only should question people with like

1520
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 6: with a little thing, I'm like, wow.

1521
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:56,719
Speaker 4: Sometimes they need to be close by their owners because

1522
01:21:56,800 --> 01:22:02,759
Speaker 4: their owner so yeah, the dogs to be secure.

1523
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 6: Okay, I'm not saying anything.

1524
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 5: Service dogs, listen, service dogs provide a service.

1525
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:16,639
Speaker 4: They're to the person that needs them.

1526
01:22:17,280 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 5: And there's also emotional support animals, and that's what I

1527
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:23,719
Speaker 5: think you're probably talking about.

1528
01:22:24,479 --> 01:22:28,719
Speaker 4: But I my, my whole thing is my dogs are listen.

1529
01:22:28,920 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 5: I love my dogs more than anything, and they are

1530
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,640
Speaker 5: my emotional support animals too, because listen, when they're around me,

1531
01:22:35,680 --> 01:22:39,120
Speaker 5: I'm happier, you know. So every animal is an emotional

1532
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 5: support animal.

1533
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:40,559
Speaker 8: But a.

1534
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 3: Jacket on and let let you travel the world.

1535
01:22:46,520 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 5: There are people that say they have emotional support animals

1536
01:22:49,520 --> 01:22:52,320
Speaker 5: and they have a certificate and all that, but the

1537
01:22:52,400 --> 01:22:56,599
Speaker 5: ADA does not issue a certificate for service animals. So

1538
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 5: they're not real. Sorry, they're not real. I had to

1539
01:23:00,280 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 5: go to a class because we have to. You know,

1540
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 5: I work at the hospitality and industry and in my

1541
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 5: day job, and you know, there a lot of people.

1542
01:23:07,560 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 5: There was a guy one time brought in a parrot

1543
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:12,120
Speaker 5: and I had it on his on his shoulder and

1544
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:14,599
Speaker 5: he's making like a sports bet at the sports book,

1545
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:16,680
Speaker 5: you know, and the guy's like, you can't have a

1546
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 5: parrot in here. And he's like it's my emotional support parrot.

1547
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 3: No, okay, you do, but.

1548
01:23:21,240 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 5: You know, you know who can be an emotional support animal?

1549
01:23:24,120 --> 01:23:24,919
Speaker 3: Are horses?

1550
01:23:25,040 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 4: Mini horses in the casino? Isn't that crazy?

1551
01:23:29,320 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah? Wait, I you have against parrots, so wait, Jacket can't.

1552
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:37,320
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1553
01:23:37,320 --> 01:23:38,280
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1554
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 3: But what I do know we have.

1555
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 5: People can ask you, you know what service? Uh does

1556
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:50,160
Speaker 5: your animal perform or something like that. That's the only

1557
01:23:50,240 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 5: question you're allowed.

1558
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 4: To really ask.

1559
01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 6: Yes, I've heard you.

1560
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I might have that wrong, so please correct me

1561
01:23:56,000 --> 01:23:59,879
Speaker 5: if I'm wrong. But there's no card, there's no certific

1562
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:03,360
Speaker 5: you know, there's nothing like that. So people are like,

1563
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:06,640
Speaker 5: here's my certificate. It's not real. Its issu'd buy some

1564
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:07,400
Speaker 5: stupid company.

1565
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,680
Speaker 3: I feel like it's the same thing. And I am

1566
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 3: one of them and have legally married someone. But you know,

1567
01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 3: like I can do that because I have a piece

1568
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 3: of paper from the internet.

1569
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:22,120
Speaker 4: So right right, it's like me becoming like a clergy

1570
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:25,719
Speaker 4: and you are I am I'm clarity. Are you really?

1571
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:25,960
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1572
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,320
Speaker 3: I've I've married people before, have you really? Wow?

1573
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:31,040
Speaker 6: We have two clergies here.

1574
01:24:31,200 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like anyone I have to, Like, I

1575
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:37,880
Speaker 4: wonder if they're outdated my credit. You have to yeah,

1576
01:24:37,920 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 4: do you have to like get licensed and like you have.

1577
01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 2: To get licensed, and it was unfortunately pretty easy to do.

1578
01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 2: I want to like lie and say it was more interesting,

1579
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:51,800
Speaker 2: but don't forget on reality TV shows back in the

1580
01:24:51,880 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 2: day too, people would get married to be like, oh,

1581
01:24:54,240 --> 01:24:55,000
Speaker 2: that's clergy.

1582
01:24:55,120 --> 01:24:55,640
Speaker 3: I could do it.

1583
01:24:55,640 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 4: I could at least perform the ceremony.

1584
01:24:58,280 --> 01:25:02,280
Speaker 2: But I did perform it an amazing couple.

1585
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 3: Once.

1586
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 4: That must have been so like, so were you asked

1587
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 4: to do it?

1588
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 3: I was asked to do it.

1589
01:25:08,880 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 4: That must be so special, like to ask somebody, you know,

1590
01:25:11,840 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 4: like listen, I think that's a really big compliment to you.

1591
01:25:15,840 --> 01:25:18,080
Speaker 4: It was a real honor. They didn't last a test

1592
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 4: of time.

1593
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:19,679
Speaker 3: It took a life.

1594
01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 4: Oh as if I was like my fault? Was it

1595
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:25,640
Speaker 4: your No, I had nothing to do with it.

1596
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:28,680
Speaker 5: But I feel can I tell you guys something kind

1597
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:30,479
Speaker 5: of like I like, I felt like.

1598
01:25:30,520 --> 01:25:32,719
Speaker 4: Something like I needed to do something more.

1599
01:25:33,560 --> 01:25:35,920
Speaker 5: So. I have a really good friend and her and

1600
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 5: her fiance got engaged, okay, and another one of our

1601
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:40,599
Speaker 5: friends were all friends.

1602
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 3: For her birthday.

1603
01:25:43,240 --> 01:25:46,559
Speaker 5: Gave the woman who's getting married a present, Okay, and

1604
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,719
Speaker 5: the present was a certificate like that. She's a clergy

1605
01:25:50,520 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 5: and so she basically was like, your present is is

1606
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:54,400
Speaker 5: that I'm going.

1607
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:55,880
Speaker 3: To be your.

1608
01:25:57,479 --> 01:26:02,439
Speaker 4: Pastor whatever? So wait, it was so weird.

1609
01:26:03,040 --> 01:26:08,080
Speaker 3: That is so invasive. Don't you think I'm not crazying? No?

1610
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,400
Speaker 5: No, she well she said yes because she didn't know

1611
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:15,000
Speaker 5: what to say not working out and ended up not

1612
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:15,519
Speaker 5: working out.

1613
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:17,559
Speaker 4: But I I wondered.

1614
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 5: I was like, that's weird, Like that's a weird present

1615
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:23,439
Speaker 5: to give somebody, Like, Oh, your present is that I'm

1616
01:26:23,439 --> 01:26:24,640
Speaker 5: going to marry you?

1617
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:26,439
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Anyway, I don't want you

1618
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:26,840
Speaker 3: to marry.

1619
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:31,000
Speaker 4: I don't get shoes for myself, you remember to say?

1620
01:26:31,040 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 4: She was like, what am I supposed to say to this?

1621
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 6: That's awkward what you were saying before opening the gifts

1622
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,880
Speaker 6: in front of everyone? When you see that, listen, thanks.

1623
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 4: Do not I am on board with the gifts. I

1624
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:47,120
Speaker 4: am on board, and I stand corrected. I will open

1625
01:26:47,200 --> 01:26:49,880
Speaker 4: with glee and happiness at any given moment.

1626
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 6: See, I don't have a good poker face, so I'm

1627
01:26:52,360 --> 01:26:55,960
Speaker 6: not so excited. I've gotten like tea kettles, and I'm like, oh,

1628
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:57,240
Speaker 6: let me take.

1629
01:26:58,880 --> 01:26:59,200
Speaker 8: Hard.

1630
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 2: I don't see the first thing you're like, oh, shoot,

1631
01:27:03,439 --> 01:27:04,559
Speaker 2: did I forget your birthday?

1632
01:27:04,960 --> 01:27:06,719
Speaker 4: Because I don't even remember my own birthday?

1633
01:27:07,280 --> 01:27:09,000
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Truly, like I can't be

1634
01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:10,280
Speaker 3: held responsible for everybody.

1635
01:27:10,320 --> 01:27:11,800
Speaker 4: Somebody asked me how old I was a couple of

1636
01:27:11,840 --> 01:27:14,240
Speaker 4: days ago, and I was like, I don't even know,

1637
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:16,920
Speaker 4: And that's not being clever, Like literally, I don't know.

1638
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:19,519
Speaker 4: I was going X amount of space in my brain.

1639
01:27:19,720 --> 01:27:22,280
Speaker 4: Birthdays are not for it. So they come, they go right,

1640
01:27:22,400 --> 01:27:25,160
Speaker 4: so at some point we stop counting. We're not twelve anymore.

1641
01:27:25,560 --> 01:27:28,919
Speaker 2: But that to be said, some people take it very seriously.

1642
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:31,680
Speaker 4: I know, But anyway, I just wanted to see if

1643
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:33,679
Speaker 4: that was totally weird. I thought that was totally weird.

1644
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 3: I can't get over she must be an intolerable human anymore.

1645
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 3: I don't know about this wedding. I think she shouldn't

1646
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 3: be invited, let alone bringing it back to parents for

1647
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:52,240
Speaker 3: one second, who are so gregarious, Like I would imitate

1648
01:27:52,320 --> 01:27:55,880
Speaker 3: my parent as Hello me, because he just needed to

1649
01:27:55,960 --> 01:28:00,720
Speaker 3: be the center. Harry, by the way, talk very as

1650
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 3: I did. But that sounds like that woman you're describing,

1651
01:28:04,120 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 3: Hello me. I'm appreciate your wedding.

1652
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 6: You're welcome weird luck at you. Yeah that's funny. Uh.

1653
01:28:12,760 --> 01:28:16,120
Speaker 6: Well that the AI dog videos like that really a

1654
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 6: lot of our listeners for some reason that we got

1655
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 6: a lot of comments about that one. If we have time,

1656
01:28:21,040 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 6: we can go to another talk back for that.

1657
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:23,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1658
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 10: Hey guys, Lindsay from Ontario, Canada here. I love your

1659
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:29,559
Speaker 10: show and listen every day. I can't believe this is

1660
01:28:29,600 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 10: the topic that has given me the courage to finally

1661
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,160
Speaker 10: do a talk But to all the people that are

1662
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:39,599
Speaker 10: so upset about the dog videos not being real, I've

1663
01:28:39,640 --> 01:28:43,639
Speaker 10: got the next best thing, and videos of dogs meeting

1664
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 10: newborn babies for the first time, and they are real.

1665
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:51,759
Speaker 10: It's super cute and so real.

1666
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 3: See those those were AI.

1667
01:28:54,120 --> 01:29:00,840
Speaker 4: No, that seemed a little unhygienic. So cute, like what

1668
01:29:00,880 --> 01:29:02,040
Speaker 4: did they get a little nippy?

1669
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:02,640
Speaker 3: You know?

1670
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:04,679
Speaker 5: But also really cute are the ones where the dog

1671
01:29:04,760 --> 01:29:07,800
Speaker 5: is like listening to the baby in mommy's belly, like

1672
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 5: they lay their little head on it.

1673
01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:10,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cute.

1674
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 4: But I'm sure though about the dogs around the little

1675
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:16,080
Speaker 4: babies on the blankets though, I'm like, one little bite

1676
01:29:16,200 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 4: in his could go sideways. I've never seen it.

1677
01:29:19,560 --> 01:29:25,599
Speaker 3: We Uh. When I had my boy, my husband brought

1678
01:29:25,600 --> 01:29:30,240
Speaker 3: home baby blankets so my dogs could smell him before

1679
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,640
Speaker 3: I brought the newborn baby home. So there's that his

1680
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:36,320
Speaker 3: smell would be a little of getting used to, and

1681
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:37,400
Speaker 3: that's surprising.

1682
01:29:37,479 --> 01:29:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, was there ever a worry that there would be

1683
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 2: some sort of wicked combo.

1684
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:49,160
Speaker 3: Yes, and I actually because and listen, this is my dog, Jake,

1685
01:29:49,240 --> 01:29:53,800
Speaker 3: he's my he's the dog of my life. However, he

1686
01:29:53,920 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 3: is still an animal, and my baby was still a

1687
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:58,800
Speaker 3: baby and then a toddler, so I never I do

1688
01:29:58,920 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 3: not kid you, they were never alone for the first

1689
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:05,680
Speaker 3: like two and a half years. I did not I

1690
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:09,600
Speaker 3: have a gate just because I just you know, toddler's

1691
01:30:09,640 --> 01:30:11,880
Speaker 3: poke an eye and a dog is.

1692
01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 2: A dog, and they're reactive exactly, of course. Okay, those

1693
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 2: videos are really cute. Okay the videos.

1694
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:21,000
Speaker 4: Of those videos when they're like crawled up in the

1695
01:30:21,040 --> 01:30:25,080
Speaker 4: dog's like head and neck, it's so cute.

1696
01:30:25,120 --> 01:30:26,439
Speaker 3: But then I'm like, is that dangerous?

1697
01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:26,800
Speaker 8: You know?

1698
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 5: Once I really like are when the babies are in

1699
01:30:28,560 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 5: those little they're not they're little beds, but they rock,

1700
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 5: you know, yeah, cradles, but they're on the floor and

1701
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:40,320
Speaker 5: the little puppy gets on the crawls and curls up

1702
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:40,799
Speaker 5: with them.

1703
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 6: And get your stressed.

1704
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:43,920
Speaker 3: Like this puppy might.

1705
01:30:43,800 --> 01:30:46,720
Speaker 4: Hear an alarm might go off, and he might just

1706
01:30:46,880 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 4: go up.

1707
01:30:48,439 --> 01:30:51,120
Speaker 5: No, what never happens. The videos are very cute, and

1708
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:54,200
Speaker 5: I hope you guys watch them. I love them.

1709
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:57,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm gonna look at that one and and the

1710
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 6: Ai Dog ones and okay, you know.

1711
01:31:00,360 --> 01:31:02,120
Speaker 4: You know what else I really like. I think I

1712
01:31:02,160 --> 01:31:04,679
Speaker 4: told you guys, Oh, go ahead it stuh go ahead.

1713
01:31:04,880 --> 01:31:06,519
Speaker 3: No. I was going to go to another talkback, but

1714
01:31:06,880 --> 01:31:07,160
Speaker 3: let's do.

1715
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:10,639
Speaker 4: Another talk about I say it's not important. Yes, everything

1716
01:31:10,720 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 4: you say is what was not.

1717
01:31:12,800 --> 01:31:14,360
Speaker 5: I was just gonna say, like, I like watching people

1718
01:31:14,360 --> 01:31:16,600
Speaker 5: pull down, like like watching.

1719
01:31:16,280 --> 01:31:22,679
Speaker 6: People call, watching those laugh, it's very like, yeah.

1720
01:31:23,000 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 4: Fun online, watching people slip on ice and stuff like that.

1721
01:31:25,439 --> 01:31:25,840
Speaker 3: I like it.

1722
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:29,200
Speaker 4: I don't know, they're not her, they're just like embarrassed,

1723
01:31:29,240 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 4: but yeah, I like this.

1724
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:33,559
Speaker 3: Let's do another TALKBACKA hello everyone.

1725
01:31:33,840 --> 01:31:35,360
Speaker 11: I want to say I'm a big fan. I've been

1726
01:31:35,400 --> 01:31:39,679
Speaker 11: listening since the beginning. I'm really proud of body for

1727
01:31:40,400 --> 01:31:44,320
Speaker 11: finally speaking up and really calling it like it is.

1728
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:48,920
Speaker 11: I think sometimes, you know, in the podcast world, in entertainment,

1729
01:31:49,080 --> 01:31:52,560
Speaker 11: everybody wants to have it both ways. You know, the

1730
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:54,080
Speaker 11: there were good people on both sides.

1731
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 6: Mmm, I like that.

1732
01:31:58,280 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 4: You Yeah, I don't say I agree on is a

1733
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:06,639
Speaker 4: great talk back And it's just so.

1734
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:07,479
Speaker 3: Scary right now.

1735
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,680
Speaker 4: And you know, I I don't know, I don't know

1736
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:12,800
Speaker 4: to say, but you know, I will say something that

1737
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:17,200
Speaker 4: Martin Luther King said and that's you know, my favorite

1738
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:21,960
Speaker 4: quote from him that you know, and also I just

1739
01:32:21,960 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 4: repeat it if it's okay. Uh.

1740
01:32:24,240 --> 01:32:26,360
Speaker 5: In the end we will remember not the words of

1741
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:29,479
Speaker 5: our enemies, but the silence of our friends. And I think,

1742
01:32:30,400 --> 01:32:33,280
Speaker 5: you know, it is scary to speak what your truth

1743
01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:38,160
Speaker 5: is to the world when people might disagree. But you know, you,

1744
01:32:38,320 --> 01:32:40,639
Speaker 5: I think everybody. I think everybody has the courage within

1745
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:42,720
Speaker 5: them to do so. And it shouldn't be hard to

1746
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 5: do the right thing and treat people like humans.

1747
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:47,000
Speaker 3: It shouldn't be here and.

1748
01:32:46,920 --> 01:32:48,680
Speaker 4: By the way, and we shouldn't be able to not

1749
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:49,800
Speaker 4: talk about stuff.

1750
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,719
Speaker 3: Right it should and disagree able to grow and evolve.

1751
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, not for the sake of disagreeing, for the sake

1752
01:32:55,120 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 2: of eventually agreeing.

1753
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:58,600
Speaker 4: Well, no, no, But the thing is tho.

1754
01:32:58,640 --> 01:33:01,719
Speaker 5: It was like like, say, somebody is wrong about something

1755
01:33:01,760 --> 01:33:04,840
Speaker 5: and you're not going to get to them to help

1756
01:33:04,920 --> 01:33:07,759
Speaker 5: them to see what's really going on by yelling and screaming.

1757
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:09,200
Speaker 4: You're going to be able to talk.

1758
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:12,920
Speaker 5: When you have conversations with people, you know, that's when

1759
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 5: things change, right, So true, and that's that's where I

1760
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:18,680
Speaker 5: want to come from. I want to come from a

1761
01:33:18,720 --> 01:33:22,760
Speaker 5: place of you know, understanding the other person's side, but

1762
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 5: also letting, you know, hopefully listening, you know, to what

1763
01:33:27,560 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 5: their point of view is and encountering that with Well,

1764
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,840
Speaker 5: here's my perspective in a calm way. This topic is

1765
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:37,080
Speaker 5: so passionate. It's so hard to do, you know, but

1766
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 5: I'm trying my best. But thank you so much for

1767
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 5: that talk back.

1768
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 6: You're doing an amazing job. And everything you are saying

1769
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:46,080
Speaker 6: is powerful and strong, and I don't know, looking at

1770
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 6: you right now with the headband and everything strong you're saying,

1771
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:55,320
Speaker 6: it's giving me that.

1772
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 4: Your head right now.

1773
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,760
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, that's so funny. I love that.

1774
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:04,800
Speaker 5: Love that lady that was like during World Yeah exactly. Yeah,

1775
01:34:04,840 --> 01:34:06,720
Speaker 5: Well here we are maybe world War three.

1776
01:34:06,760 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 4: We'll see.

1777
01:34:07,200 --> 01:34:09,800
Speaker 3: Don't even say that. No, I don't give that breath,

1778
01:34:09,840 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 3: don't give it. I'm I'm just listening.

1779
01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:14,439
Speaker 4: I have to laugh at serious stuff in order to cope.

1780
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:15,479
Speaker 7: Mm hmm.

1781
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you so much for that talk back that

1782
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:20,960
Speaker 5: means the world to me.

1783
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,759
Speaker 2: And listen, keep those coming because again, like your voice

1784
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,040
Speaker 2: matters more than any of it. So yeah, keep the

1785
01:34:27,080 --> 01:34:30,120
Speaker 2: conversations going. We will in fact be back tomorrow. We're

1786
01:34:30,120 --> 01:34:33,720
Speaker 2: gonna have some safety tips tomorrow worth exploring, especially your

1787
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:37,479
Speaker 2: online ones too. Uh, this is true crime tonight. We've

1788
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:40,479
Speaker 2: been talking true crime all the time. Thanks for being

1789
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:42,200
Speaker 2: with us. Stay safe out there.