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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Mitt Romney says people eighty and

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Speaker 1: above really shouldn't be running the world. We have such

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Speaker 1: a great show for you today. Back from vacation, the

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Speaker 1: Lincoln Project's owned Rick Wilson joins us to discuss Trump's

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Speaker 1: bad math for getting the Save Back Pass and Lindsey

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Speaker 1: Graham's death. Then we'll talk to author Michael Blanding about

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Speaker 1: his new book, The Gospel according to Hobby Lobby inside

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Speaker 1: a billionaire families quest to craft a Christian nation.

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Speaker 2: But first the news Somali. As we are people who've

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Speaker 2: studied the Fascist Handbook, we could see that this was

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Speaker 2: going to keep escalating. And Trump has subpoenaed people who

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Speaker 2: report on foreign policy for the New York Times.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so again this is like typical autocrab one one.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has subpoenad three reporters from the New York Times.

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Speaker 1: And again the Justice Department has said it's just for

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Speaker 1: the leaks and it's not against the journalists. But we

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Speaker 1: all know what this is. And he did it after

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Speaker 1: Cash Battel went to the White House to work on

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Speaker 1: this investigation, so not in the FBI, but instead in

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Speaker 1: the White House. And these three journalists who were subpoenad

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Speaker 1: actually there are four journalists who were speeded, Julian Barnes,

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Speaker 1: Eric Lipton, Tyler Pagri, Eric Schmidt, all national security guys.

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Speaker 1: And again this is a hunt for leaks. And remember

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Speaker 1: this is the story of this Trump having to switch

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Speaker 1: to the old Air Force one because the new Air

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Speaker 1: Force one, which was a gift from the Qataris, does

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Speaker 1: not have the security features that the old one does.

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Speaker 1: I would like to pause for a minute and just

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Speaker 1: mention that you do not have to have like wild

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Speaker 1: national security information. You do not have to have invaded

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Speaker 1: the skiff to be able to understand that, you know,

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Speaker 1: after a couple of weeks, the new Air Force one

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Speaker 1: is not going to have the kind of security or

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Speaker 1: a couple months the kind of security fittings that the

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Speaker 1: old Air Force one had. Like I mean, that's what's

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Speaker 1: so insane about this story, is like that's hardly like

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Speaker 1: a state secret. And so I do think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I see Trump world trying to crack down on journalism,

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Speaker 1: trying to fight against the First Amendment, but I do

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Speaker 1: think it's also worth pausing to realize, like this story

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Speaker 1: is just person with eyes would have those stories. So

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Speaker 1: as much as like this is about leaks, this is

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Speaker 1: about Trump being mad about leaks, but this is also

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Speaker 1: about Trump being mad that they're writing about his new

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Speaker 1: plane that he got from the Guitaris that he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want people writing back.

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Speaker 2: So, speaking of Plainton's, one of the wonderfully stupid ways

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Speaker 2: our tax dollars are being spent is Trump's DHS plans

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Speaker 2: to launch its own twenty four to seven deportation airline.

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Speaker 1: You know what's funny about this story is that, like

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump had a shuttle. Do you remember this? He

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Speaker 1: had the Trump Shottle, which he couldn't keep in business,

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Speaker 1: and it went from DC to New York. It's like

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Speaker 1: Trump trying to do Trump's steaks. I mean again, like

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Speaker 1: they can't make anything work, so they're going to spend

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Speaker 1: more money doing it.

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Speaker 2: One of the top posts on Reddit this after dude

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Speaker 2: was how much steak costs the public's now and all

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Speaker 2: these baggag is getting really really pissed about it today.

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Speaker 2: So h another thing of Trump's steaks coming back to life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, like next he's going to do

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Speaker 1: Trump branded water. I mean, it's just part of what

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Speaker 1: happened here is that Trump World is you know, they

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Speaker 1: got the Supreme Court to basically say they could or

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Speaker 1: all of these people from Syria and from Somalia who

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Speaker 1: were here because you know, they have been brought to

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Speaker 1: this country because their lives were in danger in their

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Speaker 1: own countries, and they were given this special status. Now

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court has taken this status away, and you know,

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Speaker 1: in a decision that feels a lot like Dred Scott,

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Speaker 1: you know, the kind of decision that seems like it

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Speaker 1: will someday be read in history books as a wrong decision.

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Speaker 1: And so Trump World now, and by Trump World, I

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Speaker 1: mean Stephen Miller is super psyched because he thinks he

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Speaker 1: can get together. You know, he's going to be able

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Speaker 1: to deport millions of people because you know the problem

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Speaker 1: for Stephen Miller was he couldn't make the numbers because

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Speaker 1: it was always a lie. Right, They were always never

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Speaker 1: as many illegals as they said there were. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have you have Trump people saying they're you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean basically it's a shorthand for anyone you don't like,

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Speaker 1: so now they think they're going to be to deport

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Speaker 1: all these people, and so they want to start their

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Speaker 1: own airline to do it. Just incredibly yet another, and again,

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Speaker 1: when you hear stories like this, it's important to remember

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Speaker 1: these people are very stupid. So as much as like

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Speaker 1: it's corrupt, it's scary, it's autocracy, it's also just more ronics.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 2: One of those things that Project twenty twenty five was

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Speaker 2: really about, and what the Trump administration has been really

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Speaker 2: about is how they can loosen up worker protections so

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Speaker 2: that they can get rid of and put in their

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Speaker 2: incompetent lackeys. And we now have new reporting that the

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Speaker 2: Trump officials have told agencies to find more workers to

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Speaker 2: make at will.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is this like war with unions, war

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Speaker 1: with Remember Trump World started this second administration with the

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Speaker 1: belief that government officials, you know, had it too easy,

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Speaker 1: that the federal government was filled with people you know,

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Speaker 1: who had too good a time, who got rich off

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Speaker 1: the federal government. That is absolutely crazy. But part of

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Speaker 1: it is also that they don't want nonpartisan government workers.

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Speaker 1: They want career civil servants fired and replaced with either

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Speaker 1: MAGA loyalists or people who are in confident because ultimately

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Speaker 1: there are two goals here, right to remaga the entire

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Speaker 1: federal government, but also to make the federal government now

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Speaker 1: work because if the federal government doesn't work, then you

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Speaker 1: don't have to tax rich people to pay for it.

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Speaker 1: And that ultimately is the other sort of project of

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Speaker 1: mainstream conservatism, is this idea that don't rich people don't

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Speaker 1: want to pay taxes because why would they, and so

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Speaker 1: make the government not work so you can say, did

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Speaker 1: you really even want to pay this anyway?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, as we often discuss, the Trump administration is

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Speaker 2: also laser focused on affordability, and by that I am

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Speaker 2: obviously kidding. And more evidence came through as this bipartisan

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Speaker 2: housing bill became a law even though Trump didn't sign it.

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Speaker 1: So this bipartisan housing bill, which Donald Trump had like

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Speaker 1: the one time ever, I mean basically in the last

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Speaker 1: decade that there was some kind of bipartisan legislation. It's

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Speaker 1: better than naming a post office, but not by so much.

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Speaker 1: It sort of tries to make housing more affordable instead

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Speaker 1: of doing a big signing and being like, look, Congress

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Speaker 1: passes laws and would be good for Republicans who are

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Speaker 1: kind of in a bad spot cruising into the midterms.

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Speaker 1: Trump stole that from them. He said, no, I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to sign it because he wanted to Save America

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Speaker 1: Act to pass, which he couldn't. Ever, he would never

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Speaker 1: have the votes. He doesn't have the votes now, but

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Speaker 1: he didn't have the votes then it wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: pass in reconciliation. So the question was like, you would

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Speaker 1: have to kill the filibuster. You kill the filibuster, and

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Speaker 1: then you have a Democratic Party that goes in there

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Speaker 1: and gives poor children free breakfasts. Ah, the humanity. No

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Speaker 1: one wants to give poor children free breakfast. That's fraud.

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Speaker 1: So the point here is Donald Trump hoped that he

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Speaker 1: could use this not signing the Housing Bill as a

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Speaker 1: way of getting people design the Stave Act. That was

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Speaker 1: never happening. And now the Housing Bill has come into law,

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Speaker 1: but Republicans aren't going to get any credit for it.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow. But again, you know this does I mean this?

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Speaker 1: The one thing that I think is interesting about this

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Speaker 1: is this is like so part and parcel of Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's second term, which is Donald Trump's first term. He

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Speaker 1: was able to get the media moments, He was able

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Speaker 1: to get the moments where they were, which were real

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Speaker 1: media wins. This second time, he really can't. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's just so in his own way. You know, he's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, so focused on all of these beautification projects

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Speaker 1: in DC, and they're each one is become a complete disaster.

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Speaker 1: Right the green reflecting pool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we saw new additions to the East Wig that

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Speaker 2: we couldn't even conceive of how stupid they would be.

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Speaker 1: Right East Wing. He's got his name off the Kennedy Center,

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Speaker 1: but he can't take down the scaffolding because if he does,

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Speaker 1: everyone will make fun of him for having to take

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Speaker 1: his name off the Kennedy saying, you know, and again

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Speaker 1: like the you saw that the fountains in DC are

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Speaker 1: now looking a little bit, the waters looking brown, so

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Speaker 1: at every point here and you got Justice box of

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Speaker 1: wine arresting an olympian for sticking his hand in the

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Speaker 1: reflecting pool. I mean, it's just so petty and embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: And when you have voters who are mad about affordability

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Speaker 1: and you're, like Marie antoinetting them about all the renovation

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Speaker 1: projects you're doing, like that's just a very bad luck.

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Speaker 2: Yep. I don't think they're going to get the message.

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Speaker 1: So Rick Wilson is the founder of the Linkin Project

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Speaker 1: and the host of the Lincoln Project podcast. Rick Wilson Boo, Molly, Hi,

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Speaker 1: I have this tiny rescue dog with me, Yankey.

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Speaker 3: I am already charmed by this rescue dog. But I

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Speaker 3: heard a rumor that he only invites you, he only.

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Speaker 1: Likes me, which is what you need. And a rescue

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Speaker 1: dog is a rescue dog that doesn't like the other

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Speaker 1: members of the family.

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Speaker 3: Perfect the kid always works out.

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Speaker 1: Spe of which Donald Trump has a math problem, and

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Speaker 1: he has a Senate math problem. So let's talk through

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Speaker 1: the Senate math here.

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Speaker 3: You know, he is down two players right now in

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Speaker 3: the Senate. And although you've got a fifty one forty

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Speaker 3: seven idea there, you also do not have a guaranteed

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Speaker 3: vote from well, you don't have a guarantee vot from

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Speaker 3: Winndsay Graham anymore. Mitch McConnell is ain't coming back, folks,

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Speaker 3: unless they do something worse than they did with Diane Feinstein,

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Speaker 3: which was horrible elder abuse. By the way, if they

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Speaker 3: do that with mccollin, wheel him in and life support

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Speaker 3: and robotically poke a vote button, that ain't it. I

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Speaker 3: don't see what happening. You've also got on the sidelines

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Speaker 3: or in the or in the fuckery category. John Cornyn,

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Speaker 3: Tom Tillis, and Bill Cassidy, all of whom are are

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Speaker 3: are signaling they're off the reservation.

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Speaker 1: So that's the Yolo Caucus, the people who have lost

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Speaker 1: their jobs because of Trump trumping.

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Speaker 3: The thing to think about here is without Lindsey Graham,

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Speaker 3: who was on Judiciary kind of like the glue that

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Speaker 3: held a lot of that stuff together, right, and who

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Speaker 3: lind Lindsey was the one who would go to the

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Speaker 3: Susan Collins is the Lisa Markowski's of the world and say,

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Speaker 3: come on, we just helped me out on this one.

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Speaker 3: I'll make sure you get something good out of voting

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Speaker 3: for Kavanaugh, voting for call me Barrett, let me let

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Speaker 3: me help help me help you all that bullshit that's gone.

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Speaker 3: And now if I'm Todd Blanche on this fine Sunday afternoon,

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, well, I guess I'm going to be an

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Speaker 3: acting Attorney General. Yeah, because I don't think they can

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Speaker 3: get Todd Blanche through without Lindsay.

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Speaker 1: There, right, And Lindsay is one of the things that

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Speaker 1: he did, which is really his legacy, was refusing the

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Speaker 1: Merrick Garland nomination, making sure that seat stayed empty. He

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Speaker 1: and Mitch McDonnell together made sure that seat stayed empty.

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Speaker 1: And then and then at the end of Trump's first term,

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Speaker 1: he made sure that Trump was able to put in

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Speaker 1: Amy Cony Barrows as even though they had started voting already.

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Speaker 3: That is correct and reap what you sew in that

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Speaker 3: kind of thing. And the extraordinary connections Lindsay had. Lindsay

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Speaker 3: had good relationships, let's be real, with Democrats and Republicans,

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Speaker 3: even though he was a Trump you know, ass kisser

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Speaker 3: from twenty seventeen on. He had good bipartisan relationships. He

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Speaker 3: could pull Democrats on some big things occasionally. He never

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Speaker 3: hesitated to pick up the phone to any report order

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Speaker 3: in DC to spin the Trump universe's view of the

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Speaker 3: of the world. By the way I said this earlier today,

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Speaker 3: I was signed with somebody about this. The reason you're

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Speaker 3: going to see the mainstream media gushing about Lindsey Graham

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Speaker 3: by portisanship, blah blah blah. Lindsay was one of the

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Speaker 3: greatest sources for reporters in DC. He would talk to

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Speaker 3: anybody about anything at any time.

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Speaker 1: And that's a lesson from Biden world, which was the

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Speaker 1: Biden white House refused to talk to the media, and

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Speaker 1: so the media really ice them out, now, yep, and

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Speaker 1: so and that was an Andrew Bates problem, right, that

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Speaker 1: was a Biden white House problem, which was they didn't

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Speaker 1: talk to the media, the media hated them. That ultimately

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Speaker 1: undermined them when they needed to communicate with the media.

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Speaker 1: It's not that the media is so there are people

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Speaker 1: who will say like, oh, the mainstream media is corrupt

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Speaker 1: or whatever. It's a not but and it's but it's

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Speaker 1: it is very small. But you still need them because

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Speaker 1: they do the world reporting, which you know, creates the

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Speaker 1: stories which live on Instagram or on YouTube or whatever.

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Speaker 3: Molly, that's exactly right, and that's that's really that's really

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Speaker 3: exactly on point. And a lot of these people that

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Speaker 3: look to Lindsey Graham to translate Trump for them in

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Speaker 3: the media no longer have that. They Lindsay is a

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Speaker 3: guy that they knew for twenty five years. He was Oh,

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Speaker 3: he's John McCain's wingman. Is that he's he's a He's

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Speaker 3: not a tea Remember, Lindsey was not a tea party Republican.

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Speaker 3: Lindsay was a rhino Lindsay. On paper, Lindsay was a rhino,

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Speaker 3: and Lindsay was an establishment guy. Lindsay was a McConnell

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Speaker 3: kind of guy. The transformation in twenty seventeen was disingenuous,

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Speaker 3: but it was so he could continue to have power.

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Speaker 3: He wanted one big thing and that was the a

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Speaker 3: war with Iran. That was Lindsay's number one, two three

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Speaker 3: for him, and he got it. Yeah, and he died

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Speaker 3: knowing it as a fuck up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Part of why Lindsey Graham is so instructive in

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Speaker 1: this moment is because he did the thing loudly that

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Speaker 1: the rest of the Republicans did quietly correct correct.

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Speaker 3: He embraced Trump in a public manner that while it

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Speaker 3: was absurd and while people were like rolling their eyes

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Speaker 3: about it, it still had an impact on the Republican

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Speaker 3: party that even John McCain's old old best friend would

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Speaker 3: somehow side with Trump.

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Speaker 1: But it also yeah, gone, no, it just.

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Speaker 3: I can't overexaggerate for people how much Lindsay could make

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Speaker 3: that argument. Well, if I can get with him, you

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Speaker 3: can get with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But I also think it was both. But it

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Speaker 1: was what was happening with other Republican senators and Republican Congress.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was just the truth that Lindsay had

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Speaker 1: that tweet where he said that Trump was going to

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Speaker 1: destroy them all, and you know, but ultimately he was right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: but he was very much he very much, loudly sort

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Speaker 1: of showed us what he was doing. Now, my question

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Speaker 1: at this moment is you have Trump still wanting the

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Speaker 1: Save America Act. You have the Housing Bill. This the

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Speaker 1: one piece a piece of legislation has actually passed. Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump refused to sign it, but it happened anyway, even

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Speaker 1: though he stole the win from Republicans. Explain this to me.

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Speaker 3: Molly, So so as folks may know by now, he

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Speaker 3: refused to sign the bill. But if the president doesn't

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Speaker 3: sign the bill, the bill has a certain window of time.

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Speaker 3: But when it becomes law, it has become the law

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Speaker 3: of the land. The Housing Bill is the law of

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Speaker 3: the lamb. But instead of Republicans being able to go

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Speaker 3: out and say I passed a housing bill for you, America,

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Speaker 3: Look what I did for you, they now know for

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Speaker 3: if they say that that, Trump will be pissed at

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Speaker 3: them because they will be defying what he wanted, which

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Speaker 3: was passing the Save America Act, which Mike Johnson's going

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Speaker 3: to bring it back one more time in the House.

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Speaker 3: It's still not going to pass there is. It is

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Speaker 3: a zombie bill at this point. But his obsession with

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Speaker 3: it really speaks volumes about how much they need to

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Speaker 3: cheat in this election to win.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: But it is also it's interesting to me too about

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Speaker 1: this housing bill because I'm just curious, like what is

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Speaker 1: in it?

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Speaker 3: Molly, It is not even that big of a deal.

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Speaker 3: It is it is. It does have a ban on

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Speaker 3: private equity buying up residential neighborhood its great, which I'm

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Speaker 3: fine with that. By the way, I'm fine with that band.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of stuff in it that apparently is

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Speaker 3: kind of meritorious rights. This is if you want to

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Speaker 3: talk about like a bipartisan win, this is like a

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Speaker 3: one one out of you know, on a scale of

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Speaker 3: one to five, this is a two on a really

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Speaker 3: good day. It's just not that important overall, in the

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Speaker 3: in the in the in the if you're trying to

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Speaker 3: make America more affordable for families, this is barely getting.

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Speaker 1: There, right. I mean, it is interesting, like you have

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Speaker 1: Trump is in this moment where all he wants is

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Speaker 1: the end of the war in Iran, right, there is zero, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he made this offer to them that was like,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you all this cash, like it was the

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Speaker 1: the offer was I feel like what they said Obama

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Speaker 1: did with the with the Iran nuclear deal. Right.

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Speaker 3: He was saying, it's actually worse than that, mamog no.

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Speaker 1: But but you know, it's the palettes of.

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Speaker 3: Cash whatever you want, full of money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they were like no, they were like no.

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Speaker 3: I mean in the fact that the Iranians, the fact

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Speaker 3: that the Iranians have absolutely figured out Trump's bullshit where

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Speaker 3: Republicans and Congress cannot, to my mind, is a absolutely glorious,

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Speaker 3: glittering irony that I will never get over.

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Speaker 1: But I also think part of it is that the

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Speaker 1: Iranians do not operate like there are a serious religious

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Speaker 1: country that well, you may or may not agree with that.

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Speaker 1: I certainly don't agree with radical with some of this ratoicy.

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Speaker 3: No, they're not good guys, No.

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Speaker 1: But they are not. They don't operate by the way

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Speaker 1: that we operate. They're not a capitalist. So Trump was like, if.

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Speaker 3: They're willing to burn their country to the ground, because

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Speaker 3: you know what when Trump is I'm going to bomb

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Speaker 3: the water treatment plants. They don't mind if they lose

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Speaker 3: a couple of million people. It makes their control stronger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and and that is what is so insane about

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Speaker 1: this moment. Trump offered them the thing he's offered everybody else.

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Speaker 1: They were like, you know, you know, and the straits closed. Basically,

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Speaker 1: you know, Trump saying this morning on the Sunday Shows

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Speaker 1: that they're open. You had Kristen Walker say, well, you

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Speaker 1: know what we're hearing is from syncom is are closed.

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Speaker 1: He said, I'm really here to talk about Lindsey Graham.

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Speaker 3: You know, look, this is a administration right now that

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Speaker 3: is in a very desperate position. We are running out

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Speaker 3: of supplies. We can't keep up the pace of bombing

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Speaker 3: in Iran right now. We are running out of the

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Speaker 3: missiles and guided munitions we need to do that. The

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Speaker 3: Defense Department is telling us they're going to need another

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Speaker 3: trillion dollars this year somehow. Where is that shit coming from?

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Speaker 3: Because I gotta tell you, we're we're not killing it

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Speaker 3: economically right now. So we're gonna either borrow another trillion

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Speaker 3: dollars for Pete Hegseth, or we're not going to keep

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Speaker 3: fighting this war with Iran. This has been a strategic misjudgment.

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Speaker 3: And again Lindsay Graham sold his soul to Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: to get a war with Iran and died knowing how

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Speaker 3: badly Donald Trump had fucked it up for people looking

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Speaker 3: for some like karmic comfort in this. There you go,

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Speaker 3: let's just.

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Speaker 1: Go through this for a minute. Eventually gas prices, donald

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Speaker 1: Trump will not be able to manipulate. Eventually Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: will not be able to manipulate the public markets.

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Speaker 3: That is correct, and I think we're very close to

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Speaker 3: that moment now because even these guys who who very

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Speaker 3: much are in Donald Trump's fiscal camp are they have

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Speaker 3: fiduciary duties to their to their hedge funds and their

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Speaker 3: and their investors and all that. I don't think it's

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Speaker 3: going to be easy to keep pretending that everything's fine.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look at Russia right now. Ukraine has dismantled

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Speaker 3: Russia's energy infrastructure one, one drone at a time. We're

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Speaker 3: going to reach that point in this country where we

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Speaker 3: are not able to pretend that we've got fertilizer and

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Speaker 3: gasoline that that is coming out of the Gulf. It's

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Speaker 3: just you can't.

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Speaker 4: You can't.

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Speaker 3: You can't make that shit up after a certain amount

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Speaker 3: of time.

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Speaker 1: But I also think what happens now is that eventually

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Speaker 1: gas prices go up again. Yeah, and because they.

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Speaker 3: Wom down Freedom Fuels have already raised their gas prices

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Speaker 3: the two seventy.

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Speaker 1: Nine, right, So right, so we're going to see But

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Speaker 1: eventually when the straight you know, you still have these

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Speaker 1: straits that are people are they're not passing through it

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Speaker 1: the same numbers that they were. So eventually the gas

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Speaker 1: prices will go back up and it will get to

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Speaker 1: befall and we will still have these affordability issues. Right,

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Speaker 1: Inflation will still be raging. Trump is not going to

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Speaker 1: get a rate cut.

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Speaker 3: We might haven't. We might get a market crash.

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Speaker 1: Right, Kevin Moorsh is just one vote. He's not going

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Speaker 1: to be able to make everyone else vote.

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Speaker 3: And there's some bitterness I've heard there's some bitterness there

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Speaker 3: that he's not out leading the rate cut fight with

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Speaker 3: a with with with with bells on.

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Speaker 1: I mean, and you know he we now know this

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court says you can't fire. You can fire everyone

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Speaker 1: else but the FED chair. Right, So you have Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump cruising into the mid terms with the as possible

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Speaker 1: macro landscape. And then you have and I'd like to

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Speaker 1: go back to this idea for a minute, that you

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Speaker 1: have Lindsey Graham is they're going to have to he

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Speaker 1: is up for reelection. Yeah, he was up for reelection,

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Speaker 1: So talk to us.

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Speaker 3: So special there's a special election happens two weeks after

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Speaker 3: he's been confirmed. After he's confirmed to be dead, the

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Speaker 3: window opens for people to qualify last four I think

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Speaker 3: a week, and then we're gonna have a special election

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Speaker 3: on this before the primary is going to be happening,

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Speaker 3: right right, you know, the next month and a half

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Speaker 3: and you're gonna get So Apparently Joe Wilson, the elder

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Speaker 3: sort of statesman down there in the Republican Party, is

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Speaker 3: sort of the placeholder appointee. Apparently Trump wants this guy

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Speaker 3: named Lynch. There are other people to the right of

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Speaker 3: him who want to jump in. Our good friend Nancy

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Speaker 3: Mace wants to jump in. And the first thing I

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Speaker 3: said this morning, I woke up to the news of

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Speaker 3: Lindsay's pass and I said, six more weeks in Nancy Mace.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, but so let's talk this through for a minute,

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Speaker 1: because you're gonna have South Carolina is not North Carolina. Right,

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Speaker 1: North Carolina much bluer than South Carolina. He talk us

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Speaker 1: through sort of what the Lenza.

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Speaker 3: So, look, we've seen the Democratic nominee there has done

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Speaker 3: very well. She had. She was within three points of Lindsay.

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Speaker 3: It was always in uphill climb. The bad news for

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Speaker 3: Democrats is that it is a very very red state

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Speaker 3: and also extremely crimson and scarlet. And also, yes, the

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Speaker 3: good news is no one who is going to be

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Speaker 3: the nominee on the Republican Party has the name idea

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Speaker 3: that Lindsay Graham had, and South Carolina kind of always

434
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 3: gave Lindsay Graham a pass. He wasn't a tea part year,

435
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 3: but they still supported him because he liked things like

436
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: like he was a big Israel guy and a big

437
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 3: you know which Israel and South Carolina. I don't know

438
00:24:58,800 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 3: how it works, but.

439
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: It does remind us who had that seat before Lindsay

440
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: going out.

441
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 3: Oh, that would be.

442
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: Mister Thurman, right, go on, yes, continue, I just wanted

443
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: to point that out to sort of So I.

444
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 3: Want to give you my one strong Thurmon story I have.

445
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 3: I was a young, young, young campaign aid for the

446
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: Bush campaign. He was down in Florida doing some events,

447
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 3: and I've seized strom Thurman take a ziploc bag out

448
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: of his coat pocket in a at a at a

449
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: buffet and stuff shrimp into it and then put it

450
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 3: back in his coat pocket. And I asked his body guy,

451
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 3: I'm like to see she swaffed that for later. He goes, yeah,

452
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: you won't hit it the room later.

453
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and fore.

454
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 3: I'd forget the fucking bag and then I'd have to

455
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: throw the whole jacket away.

456
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: Well he probably did too. But the point of this

457
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: is that Strom this is really a red seat.

458
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Georgia has shifted to be more purple again, or

459
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: Carolina has become more purple again and tipping blue, I

460
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 3: would argue.

461
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: And also in North Carolina, this sented seed is like governor.

462
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: In the rear view Cooper. Yeah, Cooper's like the unsung

463
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 3: superhero candidate. Right, He's not getting the credit of a

464
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 3: tall Rico or or a Josh sand but many.

465
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: Or he's crushed chopsand but he's a governor. Gubernatorial it's

466
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: Turk who's there. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean

467
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: I think there's like if we're talking about the Senate map.

468
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously Trump is worried and it's only going

469
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 1: to get them. The macro is only going to get

470
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: worse for him, So you know they're going to try

471
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: to cheat. And they fired these election officials and there's

472
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of them trying to make

473
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: it hard for you to vote. But that said, the

474
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: Senate seats, I think there's a world in South Carolina

475
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 1: where you have a really if you have a really

476
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: bad primary where people fight, fight, fight, and it runs

477
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: into September and you don't necessarily have you know, you

478
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: have Trump doing one thing and Nancy May's doing another thing,

479
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: and five other people doing something, will you end up

480
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: it ends up just being the perfect storm.

481
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 3: If it's loud and ugly and stupid with the Republican primary,

482
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: which I think it will be. And again because there

483
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 3: are people who are going to be to the right

484
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: of Trump's guy, think about that for a second.

485
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: So you'ree what happens when you shift the overton window right.

486
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 3: With the overtime window is so far in the rear

487
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 3: view window that it's ridiculous. Now, I think you're right,

488
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 3: we could get a perfect storm. And Andrews has done

489
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 3: a great camp, We're a great campaign. She did frame

490
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: that campaign around Lindsay, but I think that campaign can

491
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 3: be reframed around any of these Maga guys who are

492
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: gonna have less name id and less of a less

493
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: of a long running tradition of people going out there's

494
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 3: Lindsay vote for him again. He's a guy who ran

495
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: ran for Congress three times and this is his third congression,

496
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: a fourth congression or center Senate. So I mean, none

497
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 3: of these guys have that same level of familiarity with

498
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 3: the voters. We'll see how it goes, but it's if

499
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 3: you're John Thune, this is not the race you wanted

500
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: to have to worry about. Yeah, you did not want

501
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 3: to have to add this to your list of woes

502
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 3: in the year of our Ward twenty twenty six.

503
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's also a really good point,

504
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 1: which is this is a now money suck, times suck yep,

505
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: and you know, more like maga versus Mega.

506
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 3: Trump's attention will turn onto this at key points in

507
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 3: the next few weeks and it will be more loyalty

508
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 3: checking and more He'll drive them to the edge of

509
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: things that are that even voters in South Carolina are

510
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: like come on, man, talk about fucking gas prices. I

511
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: can't handle it, right, I can't handle more election denial

512
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: bullshit or whatever.

513
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it could come into the primary, So that

514
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: I think is definitely another You know, Republicans need you know,

515
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: Democrats need to keep all their seats and flipped three

516
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: but really four because of that or man. Yeah, but Republican.

517
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 3: Look, we don't know what's gonna happen in Kentucky yet.

518
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 3: That's a very long shot game right in Kentucky. But

519
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: there's a really good chance Mitch McConnell will be in

520
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 3: a refrigerator before that August deadline about him being incapacitated.

521
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: And I'm encouraging Governor Basheer. He put on a statement

522
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 3: or tweet today about like we were asking all we can.

523
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 3: It's confusing, it's weird. Governor, we love you. You got to

524
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 3: push this harder. Yeah, you got to push this harder.

525
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: And one other thing, which there is a candidate in

526
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: Kentucky who is a congressman who has lost his seat.

527
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 3: Wow, And this is this, by the way, I would

528
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: I would tell you the thought of Thomas Massey getting

529
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 3: into a Senate special in Kentucky absolutely is going to

530
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 3: drive the establishment there out of their goddamn mind. Yeah,

531
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 3: And if you're Thomas Massey, you would be formidable in

532
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: that you would you would not have the same long

533
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 3: haul money fight that Trump was able to hand ed gallerin,

534
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: and they were able to hand ed gallerin a vast

535
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 3: amount of resources to run against Massey in that congressional

536
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 3: special I think you could see Thomas master be very competitive.

537
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 3: And if mcconnald's not alive, the people that have been

538
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 3: saying he's alive.

539
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: Are in some big trouble, right, I think so that

540
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: would mean that Scott Jennings would not have had.

541
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 3: Scott Jennings wants to have that seat too, by the way, folks,

542
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: he wants to run for a Senate. I think there

543
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 3: are a lot of plays going on in this, in

544
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 3: this McConnell window. That would have been difficult for the

545
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 3: Republicans before Graham died, but now I think it's even

546
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: more difficult. I think they are in a lot of

547
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 3: trouble getting appointments through Molly. I really do well.

548
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: This is a math problem disaster for Republicans, so huge, huge.

549
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, why I drunk fast?

550
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 3: As always my friend, Can I come back?

551
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: You can come back. Michael Blanding is an investigative journalist

552
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: and the author of the Gospel according to Hobby Lobby

553
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: Inside a Billionaire Family's Quest to craft a Christian Nation. Welcome, Welcome, Michael.

554
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 4: Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.

555
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: It's great to have you. We are talking about the

556
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: Hobby Lobby family. I'm going to read the title The

557
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: Gospel according to Hobby Lobby Inside a billionaire Family's Quest

558
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: to create a Christian Nation.

559
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 4: That's right.

560
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: First of all, how did you get involved with this story?

561
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

562
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 5: I got involved in this story through an article that

563
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 5: I read in the New York Times, and it was

564
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 5: about a clay tablet that had been seized by the

565
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 5: US government, a five x six clay tablet called the

566
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 5: gilgames Dream Tablet, and it is a portion of the

567
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 5: epic of Gilgamesh that was seized from this museum in Washington,

568
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 5: d c. Called the Museum of the Bible, and it

569
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 5: was worth one point seven million dollars. And just at

570
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 5: the end of the story, they said that the museum

571
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: was built by the Green family, which is the family

572
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 5: that runs the Hobby Lobby Corporation. And immediately as a

573
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 5: journalist that was just like, what is this you know,

574
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 5: craft store family doing with this ancient artifact and this museum,

575
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 5: and it kind of all unraveled from there.

576
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: This is great because I also read that article and

577
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: that is how my eldest son and I ended up

578
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: at the hobby lobby museum, at their insane museum. And

579
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: what I think is an important data point about this

580
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: article and about this family is that so they had

581
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: looted antiquities, right then they also had fake stuff, right, Yes,

582
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: Like we've seen billionaire families put together museums and they've

583
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: done it really well. Like I think of Crystal Breakages

584
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: in Arkansas, you know where they got in like really

585
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: good curators and they got really good pieces. What happened

586
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: here is a little bit more like Disney meets museum.

587
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 5: Yes, it's very much to creating this spectacle that sort

588
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 5: of fits this narrative. And the Green family is, you know,

589
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 5: just to give you a little bit of background down them.

590
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 5: They come from a Pentecostal background, they're evangelical and if

591
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 5: you know, done probably more than any family in the

592
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 5: country to promote Christian nationalism over the past few decades.

593
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 4: One of the tenets of their faith.

594
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 5: They're real true believers, and they believe that the Bible

595
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 5: is true, that it's a historical document, and everything in

596
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 5: it is, you know, God's honest truth. So in order

597
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 5: to prove that, they started collecting all of these antiquities

598
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 5: with the belief that by kind of going back to

599
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 5: the original documents, they could show that the Bible had

600
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 5: just sort of remained unchanged through the centuries. So that's

601
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 5: sort of the impetus behind creating this museum originally. And

602
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 5: let's say they cut a lot of corners in the

603
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 5: way that they collected these artifacts and sort of trusted

604
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 5: some people maybe they shouldn't have, and ended up eventually

605
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 5: returning seventeen thousand artifacts that had been looted and stolen,

606
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 5: and some of them, like you say, had been forged.

607
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 5: They had forged copies of the Dead Sea scrolls that

608
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 5: turned out to be fakes, and that sort of became

609
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 5: this whole fiasco that unraveled over the over the years.

610
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because when you go as someone who's

611
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 1: gone and I'm sure you've gone too, it feels very

612
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: Disney right, like for sure, it's free, which is not Disney.

613
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: But you know, certainly like there's a sense in which

614
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: you're entering a propaganda world in some ways. So but

615
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: you know, they have lots of little movies and little

616
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: you know, ways in which you get to experience this

617
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: kind of Bible fabulousness. But they've clearly spent a ton

618
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: of money on it, for sure, but not focused on

619
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 1: the actual real history of it, despite the fact that

620
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: the whole exercise is trying to prove that the Bible

621
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: is real.

622
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, it sort of comes across as you know, if

623
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 5: you didn't know any better kind of going into it,

624
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 5: it feels like this very like you say, the production

625
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 5: values are all very good, and it feels like you're

626
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 5: getting this sort of comprehensive story of the Bible. But

627
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 5: if you kind of know the story behind it and

628
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 5: know kind of how the Bible was actually written and

629
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 5: how it's been interpreted, you know, you see that it's

630
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 5: sort of really pushing this kind of evangelical view of

631
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 5: the Bible, that number one, it's historical truth, which you

632
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 5: know is very much contested by scholars, but number two

633
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 5: that sort of everything good in the world stems from

634
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 5: the Bible, and you know, constitutional democracy and human rights,

635
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 5: and you know, medicine and science all come from the Bible,

636
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 5: and anything sort of bad that's in the Bible, like slavery,

637
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 5: for instance, is just misinterpretation of the Bible. And so

638
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 5: it kind of gives you this really skewed view and

639
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 5: it's not harmless because being in.

640
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 4: Washington, d C.

641
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 5: The Museum of Bible has really become the sort of

642
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 5: base camp for Christian nationalists and evangelicals that you know

643
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 5: a lot of fundamentalists and charismatic pastors who sort of

644
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 5: used that as a way to sort of push their

645
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 5: political points of view as well.

646
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: Right, it's a museum next to other museums of real

647
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: things that have happened, like the Natural History Museum. Now

648
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the hobby lobbies. They got

649
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 1: involved with the Supreme Court right and with the birth

650
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: control talk about that because in many ways it feels

651
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: like this crew is pushing all the levers that we've

652
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: seen in conservatives push.

653
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

654
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 5: So you know, the Museum of the Bible is sort

655
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 5: of the most obvious representation of their beliefs, but they've

656
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 5: been hugely influential, both publicly and behind the scenes in

657
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 5: pushing the religious right politics. They're not just ingenuous about this,

658
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 5: they're real true believers. They really believe that society would

659
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 5: be better run imparting these biblical principles, and almost everything

660
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 5: they've done been in some way to push that at

661
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 5: least a certain view.

662
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: Of the Bible and its fundamentalist point of view.

663
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 5: And the birth control case that you mentioned was in

664
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 5: twenty fourteen at the Supreme Court, and it was really

665
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 5: the first time that evangelicals were successful in promoting its

666
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 5: idea of religious freedom quote unquote that were you know,

667
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 5: in this case that the Bobbylaby Corporation wouldn't be required

668
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,399
Speaker 5: to fund birth control for its employees health care plan.

669
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 4: And originally it was supposed to be a very narrow ruling.

670
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 5: It was supposed to only buy too closely held family

671
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 5: run companies. But as soon as Trump got into office

672
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 5: and started installing out of Supreme Court justices, it really

673
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 5: became much more expensive than any company could withhote these

674
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 5: kind of.

675
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 4: Healthcare and religious grounds.

676
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:54,720
Speaker 5: And then it sort of grew into these other cases

677
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 5: and really set the template for a lot of these,

678
00:37:57,120 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 5: you know, quot unquote religious freedom cases that we see

679
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 5: today that really votes this kind of Christian mindset of companies.

680
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it is so important because it

681
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: shows that this family is focused on changing the world.

682
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: So tell us the otherwise in which they're focused on

683
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:16,720
Speaker 1: changing the world.

684
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

685
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 5: So, you know, they started out trying to just promote

686
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 5: their Christian ideals. They would put all these ads in

687
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 5: newspapers around Christmas time, and then they started putting these

688
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 5: ads in round fourth of July to argue that America

689
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 5: had been founded as a Christian nation, and they sort

690
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 5: of used all these quotes from the founding fathers to

691
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 5: try to prove that. And then as they started expanding,

692
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 5: they really started putting their money to work and they

693
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 5: bought up all this property and donated it to religious

694
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 5: organizations and educational institutions. Of course, they reaped a heavy

695
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 5: tax break whenever they did this, so it was sort

696
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 5: of a win win for them. Eventually they started funding

697
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 5: more legal organizations as well. And you know, the for example,

698
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 5: the Dabbs decision that overturned Broby Wade was really pushed

699
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 5: by this group called Alliance Defending Freedom, which was heavily

700
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 5: supported by these foundations that the Greens funded. And so

701
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 5: you can sort of draw a direct line, are they

702
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 5: involved with overturning rail. Yeah, so what's interesting about it is,

703
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 5: you know a lot of these rich families, the way

704
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 5: that they donate the money, it's through these kind of

705
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 5: they're called donor advise funds, and so it's really difficult

706
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 5: to track the actual money. And so you know, you

707
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 5: can't say one hundred percent that yes, the money they

708
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 5: donated went to this group, but the fund that they

709
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 5: donated to was the major funder and the main funder

710
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 5: of the Alliance Defending Freedom, which has been behind of

711
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 5: overturning Robe Wade also writing a lot of these like

712
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 5: anti trans laws, anti LGBTQ laws, and you know, undermining

713
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 5: abortion and birth control across the country. So yeah, it's

714
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 5: fair to say without the Greens that that they would

715
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 5: not have been nearly successful and everything that they've done.

716
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: How did this family become so religious right.

717
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 4: From the very beginning?

718
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 5: You know, they grew up in the Pentecostal set called

719
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 5: the Church of God of Prophecy, and in my book

720
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 5: and sort of go back to the origins of it

721
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,759
Speaker 5: and sort of always known as the Bible Church. It

722
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 5: sort of said, you know, the Bible was, you know,

723
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 5: the literal word of God. And really promoted this kind

724
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 5: of US versus them mentality that the you know, Christians

725
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 5: could not live in harmony with other religions because you

726
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 5: know those religions were false.

727
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 4: You know.

728
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 5: As the family had successive generations, this was passed down

729
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 5: and the patriarch is David Green who's now eighty four,

730
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 5: and he has these two sons, mart and Steve Green

731
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 5: who have sort of followed these strictures and really sort

732
00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 5: of had this, you know, continued this kind of US

733
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 5: versus the mentality. You would see a lot in the

734
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 5: religious right that this is a religious war or if

735
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 5: not a religious crusade, that you know, we need to

736
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 5: live by these biblical ideals. And you know that they

737
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 5: threw this graft store. They've just had the money to

738
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 5: push this and get this into our politics.

739
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,399
Speaker 1: There's nobody normal.

740
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 4: Then that I was able to find. No. I tried

741
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: to find sort of the black in the.

742
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 5: Family that No, it seems like there's no cracks.

743
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 4: In the armor.

744
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,240
Speaker 1: Do they all live in Florida.

745
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 4: No, Oklahoma, Oklahoma City even better?

746
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do they have their sights on?

747
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 4: Now? That is a good question.

748
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 5: I mean they have been supporters of Donald Trump, which

749
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 5: has been interesting and you.

750
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: See this sort of interesting and watch them try to

751
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: make a case for that's rice married adulta right. What

752
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: they say.

753
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 5: It's interesting because on the face of it, Donald Trump

754
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 5: is sort of everything that's wrong with morality, you know,

755
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 5: and does not represent Christian.

756
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,439
Speaker 4: Rally at all.

757
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 5: But you know, there are those on the right who

758
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 5: have sort of pushed this idea that he's sort of

759
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 5: this imperfect vessel of God's will and he's sort of

760
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 5: like this like Old Testament sort of like pagan king

761
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 5: that you know, actually freed the Jews from Jerusalem, and

762
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:01,840
Speaker 5: they sort of, you know, are able to kind of

763
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:05,399
Speaker 5: twist their ideology to support him and say that, you know, well,

764
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 5: this is just God working mysterious ways, and you know,

765
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 5: using Trump as a way because you know, before Trump,

766
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 5: Republican presidents weren't all all that zealous about, you know,

767
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 5: overturning abortion and you know, pushing these religious rights and

768
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 5: companies and things and for better for worse. Trump has

769
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 5: really come through for evangelicals on that ground, and so

770
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 5: they've been big supporters of him.

771
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: It's just such a sort of dark moment here in

772
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: American life. Would the birth control stuff and the abortion stuff,

773
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 1: and they're going to support Trump. I mean, is there

774
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: something else sort of on their radar besides that, like

775
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: you know, anti LGBTQ anti I mean, like what's next?

776
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean certainly, you know, trans people are sort

777
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 5: of the new boogeyman the religious right, and they're sort

778
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 5: of using that as a as a wedge to get

779
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 5: more conservatives elected.

780
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 4: But you can see that, you know, Roe v.

781
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 5: Wade is just in some ways the tip of the iceberg,

782
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 5: and they would love to overturn IVF, and they would

783
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 5: love to overturn birth control. And you know, you see

784
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 5: that there are you know, folks on the religious right

785
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 5: that are not stopping an abortion and you know they

786
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 5: have the you know, this this ideology that you know,

787
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 5: they say stems from the Bible, that you know, these

788
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 5: things are also need to be banned.

789
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,760
Speaker 1: Does anybody have daughters or now, yeah.

790
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 4: There are some daughters in the family.

791
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 5: There's some women in the family that you know, if anything,

792
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 5: are just as zealous now that the next generation. Steve's

793
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 5: daughter Lauren is a big anti abortion activist, and David's

794
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 5: wife Barbara was one of the big sort of the

795
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 5: face of the hobby libby case of the Supreme Court.

796
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 5: So you know, there's this very patriarchal sort of you know,

797
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 5: ideology in the family, but that the women are are

798
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 5: submissive and you know, support their their man.

799
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 4: And you can see that right down the line.

800
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: Let the record show making the vomit motion in the

801
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: most elegant way. Michael, I felt better before this interview.

802
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 5: Well, you know, I've been working on this for three years,

803
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 5: so it's been a long journey.

804
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: Has it done really dark for you?

805
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 4: It's been fascinating.

806
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 5: As a journalist, you know, I try to kind of

807
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 5: put myself in the shoes of whoever I'm writing about

808
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 5: and trying to really understand sort of their their point

809
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,919
Speaker 5: of view. But you know, certainly as someone who has

810
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 5: gain and trans friends or you know.

811
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: Or wants to live in the world as a human.

812
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 4: Sure.

813
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 5: You know what's interesting about it for me is you

814
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 5: have this family that, again they're true believers. They really

815
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 5: believe the Bible says this, They really believe that, you know,

816
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 5: that we're all going to hell if we don't believe

817
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 5: this stuff. And yet they're sort of blind to the

818
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 5: real harm and the pain that they cause. And so

819
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 5: that's what was really fascinating. To me in writing this book.

820
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 1: Thank you, Michael, thank you for joining us.

821
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 4: You're welcome, and.

822
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 5: I hope I didn't distressed you too much.

823
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, what is your moment of fuckary?

824
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 3: My mother? One of fuckery is that Scott Jennings, the

825
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 3: Human Ouiji board, is in some big trouble at CNN,

826
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 3: apparently because there's a belief that somehow, maybe Scott isn't

827
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: completely on the up and up about his psychic conversations

828
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,240
Speaker 3: with Mitch McConnell. I find that charming.

829
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: So the idea here is that Scott Jennings said he

830
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: had a twenty minute conversation with Mitch McConnell. There is

831
00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: some doubt.

832
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 3: There's some doubt that Mitch mcconnald's having conversations with anybody

833
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 3: right now. Yeah, And I think to tell on this

834
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 3: and the thing that must be getting Scott Jennings as

835
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 3: we're recording this is that Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham

836
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: were quite close. And Mitch McConnell, if you can talk

837
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 3: to Scott Jennings, and if you can talk to John Thune,

838
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 3: if you can talk to John Barasso. These people are

839
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: claiming they're having leads long conversations with him. Well, then

840
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: he could certainly make a statement about his good friend

841
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 3: Lindsey Graham passing.

842
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 1: Right, and he didn't do that. That's a really good point.

843
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: The other thing about this moment with Mitch McConnell is

844
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 1: I wonder about like CNN came out and said that

845
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: he could not track that reporting, it could not confirm

846
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: that reporting, which.

847
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 3: How hard would have been, Molly for someone to say, Scott,

848
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 3: show me your phone. Can I just see the call,

849
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 3: the outbound or inbound call to or from Mitch McConnell.

850
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: But also for CNN to come out and do that, right.

851
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 3: It means they know he's a lying, fucking meer.

852
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: It's hard for me to think of another time when

853
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 1: we've seen a reporting side, you know, unless they're really

854
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 1: sure that there's something off, for them to come out

855
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: and say that, it is very unusual.

856
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 3: I think it was extremely odd for them to come

857
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: out and say that, especially in the prospect that CNN

858
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 3: may soon be owned by the Ellisons and that Scott

859
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 3: Jennings will have the Scott Jennings Hour at eight o'clock

860
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 3: every night at that point.

861
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So it's a real question.

862
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,719
Speaker 3: Brought to you by Barry Weis's Productions.

863
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: We laugh to keep from crying.

864
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 3: Rick Welson, all right, my Fred, I'll talk to you later.

865
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

866
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesdayday and Saturday to hear the best minds

867
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: and politics make sense of all this chaos. If you

868
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 1: enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend and

869
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 1: keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.