1 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: It's the big take from Bloomberg News and I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: I'm West Cassova today. Whatever happened to that big promise 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: banks made to help black Americans buy homes one big 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: contributor to the persistent wealth gap between black and white Americans. 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: White families are far more likely than black families to 6 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: own the home they live in. That, of course, is 7 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: part of the long legacy of all kinds of racism 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: and discrimination and employment the real estate market, and in 9 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: decisions by banks about who they'll lend money to for 10 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: a mortgage. You might remember a few years ago some 11 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: of the country's biggest banks, Wells, Fargo, Bank of Americus 12 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: and others, pledged to do something about that. They said 13 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: they'd work hard to dramatically increase the number of mortgages 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: they extend to black homebuyers. So how did that work out? 15 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Senior economics writer Shawn dunne and set out to 16 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: answer that question, and he's here with me now with Answers. Sean. 17 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: Good to talk to you again. Wonderful to be here, Sean. 18 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: The last time we talked on this show, you were 19 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: explaining the importance of home ownership to getting into the 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: middle class and staying there. And now you're in our 21 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: colleague and CHOI have written a big investigation that shows 22 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: how difficult that can be and how sometimes that cards 23 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: are stacked against people, especially Black Americans. Can you describe 24 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: what she set out to find? What we set out 25 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: to look at was some big promises that the three 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: biggest banks in the mortgage market in America had made 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: to increase black homeownership. And the biggest of those promises 28 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: was one made by Wells Fargo in when it promised 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: to lend sixty billion dollars over the next decade to 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: create two hundred and fifty thousand new black homeowners in America. 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: What we found when we looked at the data was 32 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: that in every year since Wells Fargo had actually originated 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: fewer mortgages to black home buyers than it did the 34 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: year before, and that in one it actually underwrote fewer 35 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: mortgages to black home buyers than it did in seventeen, 36 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: the year that it made that promise. Now Wells Fargo 37 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 1: isn't alone in making these big promises. JP Morgan promised 38 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: in twenty to create forty thousand new Black and Latino 39 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: homeowners in America. Bank of America has made some similar 40 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: big promises in terms of two separate fifteen billion dollar 41 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: programs to help increase minority home ownership. They announced in 42 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: August of this year that they were going to provide 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: zero down mortgages in black minority communities in five cities 44 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: in America as part of test program, again to try 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: and increase black home ownership. But those banks are all 46 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: lending far less to black home buyers than they did 47 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: a decade ago, or then they did more importantly at 48 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: the peak in two thousand and seven on the cusp 49 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 1: of the suppreme crisis. Today in America, those three banks 50 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,399 Speaker 1: originate fifty thousand were almost fifty thousand fewer mortgages each 51 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: year to black home buyers than they did fifteen years ago. 52 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: And we looked at something called the Home Mortgage Disclosure 53 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: Act data, which is every mortgage in America gets recorded 54 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: and reported by the government anonymously. And what we zeroed 55 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: in on is the role of the big three banks, 56 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: the biggest bank lenders in the mortgage market, and that's Wells, Fargo, JP, Morgan, 57 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: and Bank of America, and how that had changed in 58 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: the last fifteen years. So despite the alledged to increase 59 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: the number of black homeowners by issuing more mortgages to 60 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: black families seeking to buy homes. The numbers have actually 61 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: gone down, yeah, and to the point where in twenty 62 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: twenty one, Wells Fargo originated just thirty seven mortgages across 63 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: the country to black homebuyers, and had they stuck with 64 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: the goal, then it would have been it would have 65 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: been twenty five thousand. Yet, and some of those would 66 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,039 Speaker 1: be mortgages that they bought from other lenders and so on. 67 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: There's other ways of doing it. But the point is 68 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: the lending that their loan officers has been doing to 69 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: black homebuyers is actually down from the time they made 70 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: this big pledge. And it's a pledge that wasn't a 71 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: kind of one time thing. It's something that they have 72 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: repeated in their social progress reports as recently a September 73 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: of this year, and it was a big, sixty billion 74 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: dollar commitment that they were making and that they've continued 75 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: to repeat. And what they don't tell you is that 76 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 1: actually their business reality is that lending to black homebuyers 77 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: has gone in the opposite direction. So they're continuing to 78 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: say that this is something that they're doing, except the 79 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: number is sort of show otherwise. So I guess the 80 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 1: question is why why have the numbers gone down despite 81 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: very prominent pledges to increase the numbers. Look, it's something 82 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: that wells. Fargo, when we asked them this question, simply 83 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: gave us a statement saying that they remain committed to 84 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: increasing black home ownership in America and pointing to wider 85 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: economic and social problems in America and laying the blame elsewhere. 86 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: And JP Morgan and Bank of America both say they 87 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: remain committed to their own goals, but that it just 88 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: may take more time to meet them. Sean, your story 89 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: focuses on one city block in Baltimore, which is emblematic 90 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: of the things you're describing there. Absolutely, So we set 91 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: out to look at where in America we could tell 92 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: the story, and we settled on the block of Wallbrook 93 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: Avenue in West Baltimore. The twenty one block of Wallbrook 94 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: Avenue is really interesting and that it's a place that 95 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: has a history of black homeownership. It's a block of 96 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: row houses, It's part of a black working class neighborhood 97 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: that has actually seen some serious disinvestment over the last 98 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty years. Sprinkled among these homes that are 99 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: still kept up well, that have tidy front lawns, that 100 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: have longtime black homeowners living in them, are vacant lots. 101 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons for that is that, like 102 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: a lot of neighborhoods in Baltimore, dominantly black neighborhods in Baltimore, 103 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: the twenty block of Walbrook Avenue just saw an exit 104 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: of bank lending. Effectively, it became almost impossible in recent 105 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: years to get a mortgage from a major bank to 106 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: buy a property in a lot of neighborhoods in Baltimore. 107 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the people we talked to 108 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 1: describes that as the cutting off of the capital artery 109 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: to a lot of these communities. And that's something that 110 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: has really been a legacy of the subprime crisis fifteen 111 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: years ago. But it's there today, and it's there in 112 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: the market, and it's been one of the things that 113 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,559 Speaker 1: has really dragged down, you know, back to that middle 114 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: class dream of the wealth of the families that live 115 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 1: on these blocks, the longtime homeowners there, their homes are 116 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: not worth what they were fifteen years ago in some cases, 117 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: and that's largely as a result of the withdrawal of 118 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: bank capital from a lot of these neighborhoods. You talk 119 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: about this bank withdrawal, and on this block in Baltimore, 120 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: you see numerous examples of houses where the bank's essentially left. 121 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: So we through the property records for each of the 122 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: properties on the block. On the south side of the block, 123 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: there are twenty three properties, but there's only one Wells 124 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: Fargo mortgage left on the south side of the block. 125 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: What happened. Some of this is the result of people 126 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: paying off their mortgages, people moving, people sawing, but a 127 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: lot of it is the result of foreclosures. And we 128 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: started zeroing in on the story of one particular house, 129 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: the house at three Wallbrook Avenue, and that's where we 130 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: met the Jones family. The story that we're told by 131 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: Terence Jones Jr. Who was in high school at the time, 132 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: is that he came home from high school one afternoon 133 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: and found his mother waiting outside. And his mother had 134 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: been battling illness for a few years beforehand, and his 135 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: father had as a result, been forced to cut back 136 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: on his hours. They'd fallen behind on the mortgage. You know, 137 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: it was a story that I think a lot of 138 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: us can sympathize with. But as a result of falling behind, 139 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: Wells Fargo foreclosed on the property and they lost their home. 140 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: And the legacy is not just in this family being 141 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: dislocated and losing their home, it's also in how Terrence 142 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: Jones Jr. Now an adult who is now in his twenties, 143 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: thinks about homeownership. And I think that's something that's really 144 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: interesting when you think about the future and closing that 145 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: wealth cap and getting younger people on the housing ladder. 146 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: And you spoke to him, Uh, let's listen to what 147 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: he had to say. You know, if a bank can 148 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: be that heartless to families or hartness to a person, 149 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: then you know, it just makes me don't even want 150 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,320 Speaker 1: to buy don't even want to buy a house, or 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: I don't even wanna, you know, loan from the bank 152 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: already just buy my house out on his own, because 153 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: I don't kind of want to go through the same 154 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: thing that my father went through and that my family 155 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: went through with losing the house. It was just like 156 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: kind of like a traumatic experience. When we come back 157 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:09,959 Speaker 1: my conversation with Sean Dinna continues, Sean we heard Tamas 158 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: Jones talking about his experience when his family's home was 159 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: sport closed down, and it wasn't an unusual thing to 160 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: happen now, So the story of the Jones family house 161 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: doesn't end with the family being kicked out after the 162 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: family was foreclosed on. The father had taken out a 163 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: sixty five dollar mortgage in two thousand and three and 164 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: that was what he fell behind on, and ten years 165 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: later they were kicked out of the house. A couple 166 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: of years after they were kicked out of the house, 167 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: well S Fargo sold the house for five dollars to 168 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: an investor in Pennsylvania, who turned around and sold it 169 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: a few months later for nine thousand dollars to another 170 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: investor who then rehab the house and sold it last 171 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: year late last year for almost ninety dollars. And you 172 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: think about that, you talked to Terence Jones Jr. And 173 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: what you see there is just the erosion of one 174 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: family's wealth, the missed opportunities. That house is going to 175 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: continue to appreciate as an asset in the years to come. 176 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: And that is an appreciation and that's wealth that the 177 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: Jones family is going to miss out them Sean you've 178 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: said that the banks are saying market conditions and other 179 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: forces beyond their control are largely responsible for their inability 180 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: to meet the promise of lending to more Black Americans. 181 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: What did you find when you talk about this with 182 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: the banks, And the banks are incredibly sensitive about this issue. 183 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: One of the things you run into very quickly is 184 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 1: bankers blaming regulations and the regulatory environment and the crackdown 185 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: that followed subprime crisis Great Recession. And we know that 186 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: a large part of the story of the collapse of 187 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: the housing market at that time was the kind of 188 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: reckless lending practices that that happened beforehand by a lot 189 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: of these same banks, and that they faced consequences afterwards 190 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: for targeting minority neighborhoods. For you know, Baltimore was actually 191 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: at the center of a series of lawsuits over reverse redlining, 192 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: the actual targeting by Wells Fargo and other banks of 193 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: black communities for high interest subprime loan and there was 194 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: a huge settlement that was negotiated by the Department of 195 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: Justice with Wells Fargo in and there were other banks 196 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: that faced fines as a result. So the cost of 197 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: getting it wrong, the kind of regulatory costs is one 198 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: of the things that banks point to, and yet they 199 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: made the pledge to increase lending once these regulations were 200 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: in place, So it wasn't as though they changed the 201 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: rules of the game afterwards. They went into it knowing 202 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: that that's what the terms were. Absolutely, absolutely, And you know, 203 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: as part of this reporting, we talked to a guy 204 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: called Brad Blackwell, who was a senior executive at Wells 205 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: Fargo at the time they came up with this goal, 206 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: and he said, we saw a great opportunity in the 207 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: black community in America, great business opportunity in terms of 208 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: the population growth. It was also the reality is mortgages 209 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: in the white community, the home ownership rates something like 210 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: pretty saturated, but there's a growth opportunity in Latino and 211 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: Black neighborhoods to get back into lending there. Uh. There's 212 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: also a social responsibility that he talked about, and that 213 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: has become this pledge from all of the banks has 214 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: really become part of their social policy. The kind of 215 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: E s G thing that we hear about. That's that environmental, 216 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: social and governance is sort of being a better company 217 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: by doing good. Yeah, it's corporate citizenship. So do you 218 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: think that when they made these pledges at the time, 219 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 1: they saw an opportunity to make it happen, that they 220 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: did in good faith and then realized they'd made the 221 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: wrong decision, or is this more of a social campaign 222 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: from the start. Look, it's really hard to make that judgment, 223 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,719 Speaker 1: and I have to believe as a reporter that these 224 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: were good faith pledges at the time, and the banks 225 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: certainly laid out strategies to get there. But you know, 226 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 1: there's a structural problem in the way the business is done. 227 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: What can be done? Because you said two things. One, 228 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: the banks are not meeting their pledge to increase the 229 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: number of mortgages going to black home owners. And the 230 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: second thing is that the banks themselves are not wanting 231 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: to issue as many mortgages anyway because it's not such 232 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: a good business as it used to be. Those two 233 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: things together don't look like a great future for mortgages 234 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: for people who are looking to get in the middle class. Yeah, 235 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: and for the broader issue of closing the racial wealth 236 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: gap in America. So what's taking its space? Because people 237 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: still want to buy homes. People are still buying homes 238 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: even now where interest rates are high. It's more difficult, 239 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 1: but people want to buy home. So who's lending. So 240 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: the biggest mortgage lenders in America today are non bank lenders. 241 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: And these are outfits like Rocket Mortgage, which used to 242 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: be Quicken and they're now the largest. They are now 243 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: the largest mortgage lender in America. And just to give 244 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: you an idea, they lent They originated more mortgages to 245 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 1: black homebuyers in one than all three of the biggest 246 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: banks combined. And so they know how to do this. Now, 247 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: why let me just ask you, Like banks have been 248 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: doing this for many, many years, it's obviously very profitable. 249 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: Why is it that these other lenders are able to 250 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: make a go of it in a way that we 251 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: you know, seeming to be so profitable when the big 252 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: banks can't do it well? I mean, part of it 253 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: is convenience. You know, you can apply for a Rocket 254 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: mortgage on your phone. There's that online lending side of things. 255 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 1: But part of it is also intentional marketing to some 256 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: of these communities that the Rocket Mortgages and others aren't 257 00:15:54,800 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: doing that perhaps the banks aren't so sean as usual, 258 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: You've done a great job is spelling out a big problem. 259 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: Where's the bright spot here? If there is one, where 260 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: is the solution? How does this get fixed? So there 261 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: are some pretty obvious and fairly easy solutions to this, 262 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: and one of the biggest ones that the people in 263 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: the housing industry talk about is the positive sistants helping 264 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: black home buyers come up with the deposit which is 265 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: often the hardest thing for a family down payment on 266 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: exactly the down payment on a mortgage, which can be 267 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: anywhere from you know, three to of the cost of 268 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: a house, because a lot of these families are paying 269 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: rent right and they can afford the monthly payment because 270 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: ranked is often more expensive than a mortgage, and yet 271 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: you don't build anything exactly. It's just that entry point 272 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: that they struggle with. And so there have been some 273 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: efforts by the banks to get into this area, but 274 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: they've been hidden miss But one of the big ones 275 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: that Wells Fargo engaged in was created by a twenty 276 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: twelve settlement with the Department of Justice in which they 277 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: were asked to come up with fifty million dollars to 278 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: do deposit assistance programs in eight cities, including Baltimore. One 279 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: of the people we met was Nyamaka Odom who is 280 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: twenty nine years old, and she bought a house in 281 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: in East Baltimore and she was able to string to 282 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: get a twenty nine thousand dollars in downpayment assistance. The 283 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: biggest chunk of that was fifteen thousand dollars in a 284 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: forgivable loan from Wells Fargo as part of this program, 285 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: as part of this program, and it made all the difference, 286 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: and she walked us through the process. I met with 287 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: my real Churn. She was like, you know, there are 288 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: downpayment assistance programs, you know, let me introduce you to 289 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: um Broke her at bb and T at the time Naturists, 290 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: and she told me, yes, you can get a lot 291 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,719 Speaker 1: of aid based on the income amount that you make 292 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: because there's certain income caps for certain programs. And so 293 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: she told me about the Community Block Development program in 294 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: Baltimore that she told me about the Baltimore Neighborhood and 295 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: then the other was through Federal Homebloan Bank. And so 296 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: I ended up getting all of them, which is nice 297 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: because the Baltimore Neighorhood lift one that was the last 298 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: one I got, but it gave me fifteen thousand dollars um. 299 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 1: The other programs of the Baltimore Community Block Program. That 300 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: one I did have to do counseling force. I did 301 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: online counseling talking about UM, the responsibilities of being a homeowner, 302 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: what can happen foreclosure, and you know what to expect. 303 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: And so I did that counseling virtually and then I 304 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 1: did in person counseling UM. Once I got certified for that, 305 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: then they provided me the five thousand dollars of the 306 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 1: down payment assistance. So there's what looks like a success story, 307 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: maybe a path for others. How many other people have 308 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: access to that? Is that something that's scalable where let's 309 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: say Wells Fargo really embrace this, would they be able 310 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: to come closer to meeting this big public goal that 311 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 1: they proposed. Absolutely, but it's something that comes and goes. 312 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: So in Baltimore, over the last years, we were able 313 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: to track down six hundred and eighty or so homeowners 314 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: who received the assistance from Wells Fario, and we went 315 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: through and looked at where that money went, and what 316 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: we found was that only it roughly went into um 317 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: majority black census tracks in Baltimore, and Baltimore is a 318 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: majority black city. So it's the money and you hear 319 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: this a lot from folks who work in the fair 320 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: housing world and advocacy groups, and that is that you 321 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: really need to target that lending. Sean, when you look 322 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: down the road, do you see this gap closing? I 323 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: think they're really sad and frustrating. Reality is that we're 324 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: going to go backwards for a few years. And that's 325 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: the consequence of economic policy in the United States. It's 326 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: a consequence of the Federal Reserve raising interest rates. Buying 327 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: houses is more spensive. You know, a lot of people 328 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 1: who could afford a mortgage a few years ago aren't 329 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: going to be able to afford that. We are going 330 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: to go through some turmoil. Just a number of people 331 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: buying homes in the next few years is just gonna 332 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: be down substantially. And at the end of the day, 333 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: closing that gap, it's a numbers game. It's a volume game. 334 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: You need to lend more to black home buyers so 335 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: that more black home buyers can buy homes and that 336 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: they are buying homes at a faster rate than the 337 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: white population. And that gets into all sorts of other things, 338 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 1: like how credit scores are assembled, like discrimination in terms 339 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: of appraisals and black community. Is the willingness of banks 340 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: to lend into some communities and places like the block 341 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: of Walbrook Cabinet. This is not something that is going 342 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: to be solved tomorrow. I'm not sure it's something that's 343 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: going to be solved ten years from now. But it's 344 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: something that you need the big banks in America to 345 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: live up to their promises to do. Sean Donnan, thanks 346 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: so much for coming on the show. Thank you so 347 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: much for having me. When we come back, we'll hear 348 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: from someone who's working with banks and other lenders to 349 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: try to do something about this problem. What more can 350 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: be done to press lenders to narrow the home ownership gap. 351 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: Diedrich Assanti Mohammed spends a lot of time working to 352 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: make that happen. He's Chief of Membership Policy and Equity 353 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: at the National Community Reinvestment Coalition here in Washington, and 354 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: he joins me now. Diedrich Sante Mohammed, thanks so much 355 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: for being here. Yes, thank you for having me. First, 356 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: let me ask you, what does the National Community Reinvestment 357 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: Coalition do well. We are an organization that really started 358 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: off as a coalition around the Community Reinvestment Act and 359 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 1: trying to make sure that the Community Reinvestment Act, you know, 360 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 1: recognize that we don't need solely not discrimination, but we 361 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: also needed to affirmatively further investment in housing by financial 362 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: institutions and investment in general in order to help or 363 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: move the country toward a more equitable society. And so 364 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 1: we pull together this coalition that today has grown. We 365 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: have over seven hundred local organizations across the country that 366 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: do different type of community economic development work. We work 367 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: with banks and trying to help them point to them 368 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: promising practices, best practices of investment into load of moderate 369 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: income areas and how to help address the racial wealth divide. 370 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: And that can take a kind of a host of 371 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: different programs and types of advocacy. And that's exactly what 372 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about today, which is promises that a lot 373 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: of the biggest banks, lenders from mortgages made to increase 374 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: the number of black homeowners by extending more loans than 375 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: they have historically, and how some of those promises have 376 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: been broken. You authored a study that showed to boost 377 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: black home ownership to over twenty years in the US 378 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: would require a hundred and sixty five thousand mortgages a 379 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:33,679 Speaker 1: year above what was being lent out in Yes, that 380 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: is correct, and we like to you know, know that's 381 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: about increase. You know that we would look at for 382 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: most financial institutions would need to do that in order 383 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,719 Speaker 1: to collectively get to this level. And you know, I think, well, 384 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: the reason we wanted to put these types of numbers 385 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: out there is want to highlight the kind of radical 386 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: change necessary in order to get to what really is 387 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: a humble goal, because the homeownership rate for white Americans 388 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: is seventy three, seventy, so we're not even talking about 389 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: get to equality with white Americans. We're just kind of 390 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: trying to help highlight that for the last sixty or 391 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: more years, African Americans have seen very little changes in 392 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 1: home ownership rates, staying right around forty percent, and that 393 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: we need to finally get the country going in the 394 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 1: right direction, and it would take a real substantive, long 395 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: term increase in order to get to this you know, 396 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: clear strong majority of black home ownership level. We think 397 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: it's necessary to address the racial wealth divide and racial 398 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: economic and equality and what are the steps that need 399 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 1: to be taken in order to meet that goal. You know, 400 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: I don't think most banks if any banks are going 401 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,680 Speaker 1: to increase their mortgage landing to African Americans by fifty 402 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: next year. But I think what banks can do is 403 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: recognize that we have to commit ourselves to increasing mortgage 404 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: lending to African Americans by let's say five percent next year, 405 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: and then try to do that five percent the year 406 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: after that, and so we can start getting on the 407 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: half of substantive change over time. I look not even 408 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: at so much the whole kind of total numbers, because 409 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: I understand the market goes up and down. How many 410 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: loans are banks doing each year various Right now, we 411 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: have a higher interest rate, that might be less overall lending, 412 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: but the percentage of black loans, you know, you can 413 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: focus on increasing that, whether in a very strong market 414 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: or a weaker market. And so, you know, I look 415 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: for that type of a step by step progress. We 416 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 1: saw the big lenders make these very big public pledges 417 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: a few years ago to do exactly what you're talking about. 418 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,719 Speaker 1: What did you think when those pledges came out and 419 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: how is it actually played out among the coalition that 420 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: you're part of. Well, you know, for years I had 421 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: been advocating and working with various organizations for finance institutions 422 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: to recognize the reality of the racial wealth divide. Right, 423 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: and NCRC has been working for years and many originations 424 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: been working for years on increasing minority home ownership. So 425 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: I was glad to see that financial institutions across the 426 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: country we're coming forward and say that we are making 427 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: pledges to address the racial wealth divide, the racial wealth gap. 428 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: So that is good that they're on that page. They're 429 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: recognizing that. I have some concerns that some of these 430 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: pledges are overly broad, where you could say, you know, 431 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: we're doing billions of dollars in order to bridge racial 432 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: wealth divide, but not really clarifying, well, how much of 433 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,959 Speaker 1: that Let's say it's three billion dollars, how much of 434 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: that lending were you already doing the previous years, Like 435 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: how much of that is new lending additional lending? And 436 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: also too, to be clear, this is lending, this is 437 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: an investment in giving of new dollars in right, it's 438 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: them actually selling their products. Are saying if they did 439 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: two billion last year, they're gonna do three billion next year. 440 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: They're saying, well, and we hope to sell an additional 441 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: billion dollars of products. Oftentimes it gets tied into this 442 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: philanthropic giving. So I think it's really it's important we're 443 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: gonna make progress to be real specific about what is 444 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: being offered, what is being homist, and what they hope 445 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: to achieve in the next five to ten years. I mean, 446 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,360 Speaker 1: that's a really important point you're making, is that you're 447 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 1: not asking banks to give, you're asking banks just to 448 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: sell their product. Yes, well, I mean I'm also asking 449 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: banks to give fair Enough, we've been talking about banks, 450 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: there are also non bank lenders that have started to 451 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: move in offer loans that banks sometimes won't. How has 452 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: that worked out? That's a growing important component that non 453 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: banking companies are a larger and larger segment of those 454 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 1: doing important mortgage lending and other types of lending. And 455 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 1: you know, we are having more and more conversations with 456 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: these other industries about, you know, what is your commitment 457 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: to ensuring that the mortgage lending space, a small business 458 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,880 Speaker 1: lending space is something that serves all people, right, It's 459 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: not something that we just think banks should do. Earlier 460 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: in this episode, we heard from a young man named 461 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: Terrence Jones Jr. In Baltimore whose family lost their home 462 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: be because his dad had to cut back on work 463 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: to become his wife's caretaker, and he now lacks the 464 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: desire to buy a home of his own, fearing that 465 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: he could lose everything. What do you say to a 466 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: young man like that who lost faith in the ability 467 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: to buy a home. I think what I would say 468 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: to someone like that. I mean, one is first as 469 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: important to recognize, you know, the challenge and the trauma 470 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: of because it's a financial asset, but it's also something 471 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: very personal, right, and it's something that you really do 472 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 1: feel a loss, like if you lose a home and 473 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 1: then you're going into rentorships, so you know, I think 474 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: first important to recognize that loss um but also the 475 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 1: economic benefits and even the kind of personal benefits of 476 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: being able to own a home and be able to 477 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: stay and I have to worry about rent changing every 478 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: year or that they might not continue lease. But you 479 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: have something that you can stay in and you know, 480 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,080 Speaker 1: and your kids can come back to. It's still something 481 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 1: that probably would be beneficial for you. And trying to 482 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: figure out what is the best type of a mortgage program, 483 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: what is the best economic situation you can set yourself 484 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: up in so that this can be as safe and 485 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: secure for you as possible. I don't think in overall 486 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: the challenges, African Americans don't have a desire for homeownership, 487 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: you know. I think we see repeatedly that when there 488 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: are opportunities, the African Americans are quick to jump in 489 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,479 Speaker 1: to the homeownership market. It's more about creating sustainable mortgage 490 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: learning programs that can work considering the economic reality of 491 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: African American Diedrich Cossante Mohammed, thanks for speaking with me 492 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: today and I was great talking with you. Thank you. 493 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: You can see Dietrich Cossante Mohammed's report on Black homeownership 494 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: at NCRC dot org, and you can read Seawan Dunnan 495 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: and and choice story about banks and Black homeowners at 496 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com. Thanks for listening to us here at 497 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: The Big Take, the daily podcast from Bloomberg and I 498 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more shows from my Heart Radio, visit 499 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen. 500 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: Read today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at 501 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com slash Big Take, and we'd love to 502 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: hear from you. Email us with questions or comments to 503 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: Big Take at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of 504 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: the Big Take is Vicky Burgalina. Our senior producer is 505 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: Katherine Fink. Our producers are Moe Barrow and Michael Falerro Hill. 506 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: The Garcia is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrin. 507 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: I'm West Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.