1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: Electricity as we know it has been around for several centuries, 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: and yet in twenty twenty four, there's still many parts 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 2: of the world where people don't have access to it. 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 2: Here in South Africa, where I'm speaking to you from, 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: blackouts have eased slightly, but that's after years of intensified 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 2: blackouts which crimped South Africa's economy. And we're not the 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 2: only ones on the continent. Other African countries are dealing 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: with similar issues. So what could be the solution. Solar 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: has to be our default go to technology to resolve 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: the energy crisis in Africa. The energy source is the sun. 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: It's free. 13 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 2: More and more nations see photovoltaic or PV energy as 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: an opportunity to light up our. 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: For cut of breaking news. You guys, the sun does 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: not shine twenty four hours a day. 17 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: But is the sun really the answer to power shortages 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: on the continent. And there's also the question of climate change. 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: How can the PV industry produce solar panels resistant to 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: extreme weather conditions. That's what we're going to discuss today 21 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 2: with Bloomberg's energy reporter Paul Berkhart. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and 22 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 2: this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story 23 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 2: each week from the continent, driving the future of global 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: growth with the context only Bloomberg can provide. Paul, thank 25 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: you so much for joining us. So let's start by 26 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: looking at the big picture. Many parts of the African 27 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: continent are still in darkness and in some countries it's 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: very common to have power shortages, as we mentioned, how 29 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: do you explain that. 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: If you look across the entire continent and there's about 31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: population of around one point two billion, almost half of 32 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 3: that population doesn't have access to electricity. And in the 33 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 3: entire world that numbers about eight hundred million people who 34 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 3: live in energy poverty, so the vast majority live in Africa. 35 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: The amount of people without access to electricity has actually 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 3: gone up in recent years. Some of that's due to 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 3: population growth, but a lot of the time it's because 38 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 3: people just live in very remote areas and utilities that 39 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: don't have the resources to connect them already. 40 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that brings us to South Africa, of course, 41 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: which we talk about quite a bit in this newsroom, 42 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: but also when you talk about population not being able 43 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 2: to serve the population Nigeria is also something that comes 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: to mind there. How would you describe the Nigerian situation 45 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: in particular. 46 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, Nigeria is really the big one when it comes 47 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: to poutages, and they kind of they laugh at South 48 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: Africa in terms of the power cuts that we have 49 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: here because I think it's just become the thing of 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 3: everyday life there. So almost a third of African countries 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 3: have more generator capacity than they do like an installed 52 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: grid capacity, and that's because of the reliance on your 53 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 3: own power source. Nigeria is the absolute leader in that 54 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 3: it's up to you as a resident, as a homeowner 55 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 3: or as a business to solve that problem if you 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 3: live in Nigeria. 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: But she would think it would be a public good 58 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: right to have electricity, especially when it comes to business, 59 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: which is why it's surprising that there isn't more investment 60 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: that has gone towards the sector. 61 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 3: Absolutely in South Africa, it's even been seen as a right. 62 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 4: You should have a right. 63 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 3: To electricity or the tools of development should be accessible 64 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: to everybody. The utility that generates like almost all the 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: electricity in South Africa's ESCAM, and it's dealt with a 66 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 3: lot of different issues corruption, mismanagement depends on bailout and 67 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 3: ESCOM itself believes that it's not charging enough for electricity, 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: so most of all it's become prone to breakdowns. We've 69 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: had record power cuts that again pale in comparison to Nigeria's, 70 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: but they're still very bad. 71 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 2: Solar energy will be the dominant source of renewable energy 72 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: by the end of the decade. 73 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 3: You know, Africa has ten thousands you go ups so 74 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 3: love to show. 75 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: So then, Paul, that brings to the question about solar right, 76 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 2: I mean, this could be a very obvious answer for 77 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 2: these black opps, especially in many of these countries which 78 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: have I think a majority of their days are with 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: the sun out right. Why haven't we seen this tapped 80 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 2: as much as it could be? 81 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say on the positive side, Africa has 82 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: some of the best solar resources in the world. Namibia 83 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: I think is on the very top of the list, 84 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 3: and then there are a lot of other African countries 85 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 3: that not only get strong solar power, but they get 86 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 3: year round. But still it depends on what you're using 87 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 3: it for austrial application, you can't necessarily do that with 88 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: solar alone. 89 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 4: You would need kind of utility scale batteries. It is used. 90 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 3: Looking on a limited basis in a lot of places 91 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 3: and in remote areas where you can charge your phone 92 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 3: or radio kind of basic things, but it can also 93 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: work for homes. And what we see in South Africa 94 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: as there have been more power cuts is they've actually 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 3: installed up to I think five gigawatts of solar panels 96 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: at this point, and so if you have an inverter 97 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: and you have solar panels, then you can basically get 98 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: off the grid and you don't have to rely on ESCAM. 99 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: The problem with that is these systems are between one 100 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: hundred thousand rand and two hundred thousand rand for the 101 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 3: whole thing, and that's more than a lot of South 102 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: Africans earn in a whole year. So it's just not affordable. 103 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 2: So then we're likely going to see more and more 104 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 2: people finding their own ways to power their homes. Essentially, 105 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: is that sort of the model that is really going 106 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: to start spreading across the continent, because as you mentioned, 107 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: there are some people who can afford it right to 108 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 2: have solar panels at their homes, but their next door 109 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: neighbor may not have that. Is it just going to 110 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: be a broken up grid more and more. 111 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a huge issue. It's going to create even 112 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 3: more inequality in a place like South Africa or Nigeria 113 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 3: because those who can afford to generate their own power, 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 3: they'll do that and they have been doing that, and 115 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 3: those who can't, and for those who it'll become increasingly expensive. 116 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 4: That sort of leaves them. 117 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: In an area where they have to find solutions and 118 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 3: there really aren't many coming up. 119 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: After the break, we'll be looking at the economic potential 120 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: of the photovol take industry for Africa and other renewable energies. 121 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 4: We'll be right back. 122 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: It is a pretty exciting time to be in the 123 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: solar industry. Our projections tell us that this year our 124 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: industry is going to grow by about fifty two percent. 125 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: So we've seen a number of projects rising up over 126 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: the years when it comes to solar power. But I 127 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: wonder if you take a look at the continent, who 128 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: would you say, which country would you say is leading 129 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 2: the solar race. 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 3: As it stands, it's South Africa. So there was this 131 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 3: program that started a little over a decade ago for 132 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 3: private developers to build renewable power and it was very 133 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 3: successful until it got blocked for political reasons, but still 134 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 3: South Africa would be much bigger, but that could change 135 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 3: pretty quickly. There are opportunities throughout the continent. This Morocco, 136 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 3: Egypt and local manufacturing assembly takes hold, then that's really 137 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: the accelerator, and so they've been looking for that in 138 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 3: South Africa. That's really what would cause like a massive 139 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: change and for projects to be built. 140 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: But still the manufacturing, at least the local manufacturing you're 141 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: talking about, has it yet gained enough team on the continent. 142 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 2: Is that sort of the assessment you'd give it. 143 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, I think you see maybe to a 144 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 3: small degree, some assembly that takes place, but otherwise, like 145 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 3: a lot of this just comes in imported. 146 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: What are we hearing, Paul from the public sector on this, 147 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: because this ultimately is affecting these economies, right, Is there 148 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: enough will to address the grid and the disparities really 149 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: between who has and who doesn't have power. 150 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: We're starting to see a little more of a convergence. 151 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 4: We have some of. 152 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: These there's some foreign funding available and then that would 153 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 3: in turn bring in more private investment, and so we're. 154 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 4: Starting to see more and more of that. 155 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 3: South Africa has had a very successful to some degree 156 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: program to bring in more renewables, even going back to 157 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,080 Speaker 3: twenty eleven. But I think what's accelerated now is the 158 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: shortages of electricity in South Africa, and so it's really 159 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: in a way it could force more solution, but the 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: funding just in large part isn't there. Their grants and 161 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 3: their loans, but there are a lot of other political 162 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 3: issues around whether to take some of this money and 163 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: just the amount of money that's needed. 164 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 4: There's still quite quite a ways to go. 165 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,959 Speaker 2: And that of course factors into the climate situation, right 166 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: and the effect that is then having on the whole 167 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: entire situation. I mean, I wonder in your time, since 168 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: you've been covering this, if you still think that we 169 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: are on the right track, even given sort of the 170 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 2: climate emergencies and the extreme weather events that we're seeing 171 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: across the continent. 172 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: That's a great point, because we see more and more 173 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: of them here and Africa's ironically is like extremely exposed, 174 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 3: more so than a lot of other places to the 175 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: effects of climate change. And I think as people experience that, 176 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 3: then that firsthand experience becomes more of a motivator to 177 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 3: change things. 178 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 4: But still we see these changes. 179 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 3: When we see some of the issues around for example, 180 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 3: switching from coal for South Africa, and what's going to 181 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 3: happen with the mining industry and what happens with those 182 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: jobs and where do these jobs in the renewable industry, 183 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 3: where will they come from? 184 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 4: That needs to be explained. You know. 185 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 3: Again, we'll see the private sector really be able to 186 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: source the. 187 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 4: Power and the electricity that they need. 188 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 3: But there's a much bigger issue in a country like 189 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 3: South Africa, for example, more than sixty million people, the 190 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: vast majority are going to be trying to figure out 191 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 3: what they're going to do about getting electricity. 192 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: What about it being tapped potentially and I mean solar 193 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: paul it being tapped potentially as an opportunity for African government. 194 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 2: You mentioned how plentiful the resources are, right, Are we 195 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: at the point yet where some governments can potentially sell 196 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: their solar access or their solar power to other parts 197 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 2: of the world or are recent on early days we. 198 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 4: See opportunities even within Africa. 199 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 3: There's some countries that are looked at exporting electricity the 200 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: way South Africa used to really and now they need 201 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 3: all the power that they can get. 202 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 4: But there are opportunities. 203 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 3: There's certainly opportunities in Morocco and other countries that are 204 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: so close to Europe. 205 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: In the North African desert. One country is embracing this 206 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 1: bright feature. Morocco has just switched on the world's largest 207 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: solar power plant. Soon energy from these skies will be 208 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: exported to the richest economies in the world, with the 209 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: potential to transform the lives of millions. 210 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: And even in terms of green hydrogen and these other 211 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 3: energy options that are coming up, you absolutely can export 212 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 3: those things. And yes, the governments can look at this 213 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: as an opportunity and they could find some success. Then 214 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 3: maybe it has quite a bit of discussions going on 215 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: about their green hydrogen projects for example. But I think 216 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: even if you look at energy resources in terms of 217 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 3: oil and gas, what African countries still need if they're 218 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: exporting these things are programs at home. What is this 219 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 3: doing for your own power supply? So not only do 220 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: the places that you're sending electricity to have power, but 221 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: more importantly that you have power. 222 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 2: Yourself, absolutely, and that's what the citizens are waiting for 223 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: as well. Paul Burkhart, thanks so much Paul for joining us. 224 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 4: Thank you. 225 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: As Paul mentioned, the resources are there, the need for 226 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 2: the population is as well. What's most pressing at this 227 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: point is the funding and the will to commit to 228 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: the solar project's long term as they do take a 229 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 2: long time. As Paul mentioned there. This program was produced 230 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 2: by Adrian Bradley and Leon Wadrago. Don't forget to follow 231 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: and review this show wherever you usually get your podcast. 232 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks as always for listening.